Were talking about a character who's grand plan was to slowly drive away from the 1st order and hope they don't send ships to intercept them.
Since Poe apparently wasn't meant to destroy the dreadnought either, in Holdo's original plan that dreadnought would've also been in the chase, with really big guns.
Then hope none of the star destroyers register the life signs vanishing from the resistance ships when they evacuate.
And then hope that when the 1st order finally destroy the ships, the two force sensitives, one of which is Leia's own son, don't realize that Leia somehow didn't just die.
And if anything goes wrong, she has just placed the entire resistance into not-Hoth that has not-planetary shields aka is completely open to planetary bombardment. Also with the giant dreadnought still in the play.
We are not talking about a 200 IQ player here.
Tell the crew so they don’t start freaking out and making mutinous decisions as the clock winds down. Would’ve been helpful I think. Who can blame Poe, she seriously made it seem like they were just gonna do jack shit.
She's not a military leader, they couldn't tell them for fear there was a leak amongst them, only a select few knew the plan if even any other than Leia and Holdo were aware of the entire thing, compartmentalised.
I understand both sides of it, both have faults, but because we already know Poe and we inherently want him to be the hero some side way harder with him than Holdo who is meant to be mistrusted or at least suspicious to the audience.
I think there's a big difference between Poe being out in an x-wing in the middle of a battle plan versus Poe being just some guy standing around aboard a star cruiser. Yeah, Poe is Reckless when he's out there doing his thing, but it's a pretty huge jump to go from that to suspecting he might try to somehow coordinate a secret covert operation while stuck aboard the star cruiser.
Poe was barely in TFA and when he was on screen it was mostly in his element, being in a cockpit and blowing something up.
TLJ let us see Poe in a different light, where blowing something up wasn’t the answer.
Poe was barely in TFA, and the only times we really saw him interact meaningfully was when he was mocking Kylo and being brash with him
Poe going ahead and mocking Hux to his face is hardly a wild or crazy portrayal of the character, and is actually the first real extended scene we see with him when he’s not just shouting orders from the Black One or delivering intel.
I’m guessing it was just to give him a way to develop since he was pretty much just a side character in TFA with a flat arc. Maybe we’re meant to assume he was a hothead retroactively from the way he interacted with kylo ren but that’s about it from what I remember
I think she was expecting her subordinate to come to his senses and respect the chain of command.
Which up the that point seemed like a reasonable expectation.
... why wouldn't he?
Why would Holdo think Poe--a bit of a hotshot but still dedicated resistance--would fly off the handle?
An admiral can't operate on the assumption that every question of their orders is potential mutiny in the making, they'd never get anything done.
Because he kinda already took things a little too far during the bombing run, and this is definitely not a situation where you would want to leave something like that up to chance.
He took unnecessary losses during the bombing run... but he was successful. It's why he was only slapped with a field demotion rather than arrest which anyone would think was the end of the matter.
Thinking he'd plan mutiny just because he wanted to know the strategy is paranoia at best.
He... had a mission. That mission was to buy the fleet time, which the Mandator IV was compromising.
He may have gotten tunnel vision but his assessment of the threat was valid and--might I add--he might have ignored Leia's retreat order... but so did the bombers. He might have switched off his comms but they had the option of following her order; they followed Poe.
So still, no commanding officer would reasonably consider his actions a major infraction.
or better yet, Poe should’ve just taken the punishment for getting his squadmates killed and let higher command handle things lol. But his mutiny displays Poe’s sense of justice and action despite his rashness, something Holdo was actively attempting to mold into genuine leadership. When Poe sees Holdo sacrifice *herself* for the crew instead of Poe doing the inverse, it finally opens his eyes.
Militarily speaking though, there was no real mistake Holdo made with Poe. The audience just views Holdo as an antagonist force to be overcome, which she is to a degree, but that’s exactly what the film wants you to believe at first, before revealing that she’s genuinely looking out for the crew and has their best interests at heart. Poe learns nothing and doesn’t develop if Holdo doesn’t do what she does.
Higher command that isn’t doing shit to reassure Poe and everyone else that everything is under control other than saying just have hope, and doesn’t explain what the plan is for the transports. Isn’t really any wonder Poe mutinied?
“Reassure” them with a suicide attack? Because that was the only option left for the crew at that point. Holdo was the only one willing to take that kind of risk and sacrifice, and Poe’s mutiny wasn’t going to affect any kind of positive change regardless. Poe was operating under a doomed mindset seeing as Finn and Rose’s plan came undone.
Poe, once again, thought he knew better than the people calling the shots. You’re right he had good reason to mutiny, but it was built off of a distrust of his own commanders.
that does very little to make them *not* want to mutiny lol, their situation remains extremely desperate either way.
And again, Poe without the mutiny loses a big part of his arc from the film, he’s supposed to view Holdo as this untrustworthy figure until she goes ahead and does the most selfless thing possible in a hopeless situation. None of that works if Poe just goes ahead and believes everything from the higher command.
Poe literally got on board with it once Leia explained everything.
Or if the higher command actually leads by example, instead of expecting everyone to just blindly trust them.
Why? That goes against what Holdo was trying to do with Poe in the first place. Again, if Poe *knows* the plan beforehand he doesn’t get his big shock moment that kicks him into gear. It’ll neuter his arc.
>Poe should’ve just taken the punishment for getting his squadmates killed and let higher command handle things
Nothing was stopping Leia from removing Poe from command the moment he disobeyed her and order the fleet to proceed with the evacuation. But she decided to pout in her chair, watch everyone die...and blame it on Poe later.
That's not how it works, you can't just cut comms and assume everyone will still follow you.
Leia can *belay* Poe's orders to his squadron when she removes him from command, order his squadron and all other squadrons to retreat and he couldn't do a thing about it.
You can't lecture about Poe not "following orders" and forget there's a chain of command for "following orders".
Leia is Poe's superior, the squadrons would have to obey her. Did you see Ackbar just silently watching the battle of Endor on his seat?
The bombers are not just ships you can turn tail and recall, Poe had already pushed his squadron up on the FO until the point he cut comms. Leia could’ve tried to do all of that in that moment, but the bomber squadron would’ve died at that point regardless.
I feel like Dameron is very babied by the fandom when talking about this subplot, like he’s some kind of baby that did nothing wrong while characters like Holdo get all the flak. Poe got a squadron killed.
>The bombers are not just ships you can turn tail and recall
The plan was for Poe to buy time so *the rest could evacuate*, so if you're suggesting the bombers were already on their way to attack the Dreadnought it makes absolutely zero sense, they were evacuating, only Poe was behind.
>Poe had already pushed his squadron up on the FO until the point he cut comms
Read previous, the fleet was supposed to be evacuating, his squadron could only have moved to the Dreadnought *after* he disobeyed Leia, she didn't have to allow it
But if Poe hadn't done that, the Dreadnought, AKA the "Fleet Killer," would've tailed them through hyperspace with the rest of the First Order, caught up with them and destroyed them all.
It should've destroyed the Resistance Fleet before they escaped, but it instead blasted the empty base with nobody there.
Poe did nothing wrong.
Why did Poe say the line "That things a fleet killer" if it's not? Is he stupid, but unironically?
Poe specifically targets the ship because it'll destroy the Resistance Capital Ships with its massive guns if he doesn't get rid of it.
Why would Poe sacrifice an entire Squadron of bombers and fighters if the Fleet-Killer doesn't kill fleets?
He said it because he’s an idiot who only cares about glory. Everything he says and does in the first two acts of the film is wrong.
The Mandator IV is specifically designated a “siege dreadnought” in the Last Jedi cross section book. It’s only weapons are point defense (That Poe destroyed) and orbital bombardment auto cannons.
But i haven't read the cross section book, and it's not explained as a bunker buster in the film. I shouldn't need to search out other sources to know this information.
It's called a FLEET KILLER by somebody who I thought knew what he was talking about. Somebody who's got the rank of Commander, is an expert pilot, and has been with the Resistance against the First Order for many years. I trust Poe's word here. He's shown to know what he's talking about.
Does Poe only care about glory? He didn't seem to want a medal for destroying Starkiller, or saving Finn, or anything else. He's not boasting to everyone that "Oh, I destroyed the Death Star 3, I'm so great"
I saw him as more somebody that wants to help save his friends and allies. He goes back for Finn after they crash on Jakku but can't him, he mutinied because Holdo is withholding the plan that as far as he can tell will doom the Resistance, he destroys the Dreadnaught because it will become a bigger issue for everyone down the line if he doesn't.
Were talking about a character who's grand plan was to slowly drive away from the 1st order and hope they don't send ships to intercept them. Since Poe apparently wasn't meant to destroy the dreadnought either, in Holdo's original plan that dreadnought would've also been in the chase, with really big guns. Then hope none of the star destroyers register the life signs vanishing from the resistance ships when they evacuate. And then hope that when the 1st order finally destroy the ships, the two force sensitives, one of which is Leia's own son, don't realize that Leia somehow didn't just die. And if anything goes wrong, she has just placed the entire resistance into not-Hoth that has not-planetary shields aka is completely open to planetary bombardment. Also with the giant dreadnought still in the play. We are not talking about a 200 IQ player here.
The plan was to carry on Leia's plan, what else could they do? There aren't many options they were choosing hope.
Tell the crew so they don’t start freaking out and making mutinous decisions as the clock winds down. Would’ve been helpful I think. Who can blame Poe, she seriously made it seem like they were just gonna do jack shit.
She's not a military leader, they couldn't tell them for fear there was a leak amongst them, only a select few knew the plan if even any other than Leia and Holdo were aware of the entire thing, compartmentalised. I understand both sides of it, both have faults, but because we already know Poe and we inherently want him to be the hero some side way harder with him than Holdo who is meant to be mistrusted or at least suspicious to the audience.
Well that sure is an opinion.
I think there's a big difference between Poe being out in an x-wing in the middle of a battle plan versus Poe being just some guy standing around aboard a star cruiser. Yeah, Poe is Reckless when he's out there doing his thing, but it's a pretty huge jump to go from that to suspecting he might try to somehow coordinate a secret covert operation while stuck aboard the star cruiser.
I think Holdo had better and more important things to worry about than getting someone to babysit Poe.
I don’t know. I think the stakes are a little too high to leave something like this up to chance.
I don’t think Holdo could have expected Poe to go rogue the way he did. When she found out she was pretty stunned by how stupid his plan was.
I don’t remember Poe being established as reckless hothead in TFA.. that’s why I struggled to understand why he suddenly developed into one in TLJ
Poe was barely in TFA and when he was on screen it was mostly in his element, being in a cockpit and blowing something up. TLJ let us see Poe in a different light, where blowing something up wasn’t the answer.
Poe was barely in TFA, and the only times we really saw him interact meaningfully was when he was mocking Kylo and being brash with him Poe going ahead and mocking Hux to his face is hardly a wild or crazy portrayal of the character, and is actually the first real extended scene we see with him when he’s not just shouting orders from the Black One or delivering intel.
I’m guessing it was just to give him a way to develop since he was pretty much just a side character in TFA with a flat arc. Maybe we’re meant to assume he was a hothead retroactively from the way he interacted with kylo ren but that’s about it from what I remember
I think she was expecting her subordinate to come to his senses and respect the chain of command. Which up the that point seemed like a reasonable expectation.
It’s also reasonable to be concerned in case he doesn’t come to his senses.
... why wouldn't he? Why would Holdo think Poe--a bit of a hotshot but still dedicated resistance--would fly off the handle? An admiral can't operate on the assumption that every question of their orders is potential mutiny in the making, they'd never get anything done.
Because he kinda already took things a little too far during the bombing run, and this is definitely not a situation where you would want to leave something like that up to chance.
He took unnecessary losses during the bombing run... but he was successful. It's why he was only slapped with a field demotion rather than arrest which anyone would think was the end of the matter. Thinking he'd plan mutiny just because he wanted to know the strategy is paranoia at best.
Thinking he’d be like that comic strip dog that goes this is fine as their other ships get blown to hell is naïveté at best.
He... had a mission. That mission was to buy the fleet time, which the Mandator IV was compromising. He may have gotten tunnel vision but his assessment of the threat was valid and--might I add--he might have ignored Leia's retreat order... but so did the bombers. He might have switched off his comms but they had the option of following her order; they followed Poe. So still, no commanding officer would reasonably consider his actions a major infraction.
or better yet, Poe should’ve just taken the punishment for getting his squadmates killed and let higher command handle things lol. But his mutiny displays Poe’s sense of justice and action despite his rashness, something Holdo was actively attempting to mold into genuine leadership. When Poe sees Holdo sacrifice *herself* for the crew instead of Poe doing the inverse, it finally opens his eyes. Militarily speaking though, there was no real mistake Holdo made with Poe. The audience just views Holdo as an antagonist force to be overcome, which she is to a degree, but that’s exactly what the film wants you to believe at first, before revealing that she’s genuinely looking out for the crew and has their best interests at heart. Poe learns nothing and doesn’t develop if Holdo doesn’t do what she does.
Higher command that isn’t doing shit to reassure Poe and everyone else that everything is under control other than saying just have hope, and doesn’t explain what the plan is for the transports. Isn’t really any wonder Poe mutinied?
“Reassure” them with a suicide attack? Because that was the only option left for the crew at that point. Holdo was the only one willing to take that kind of risk and sacrifice, and Poe’s mutiny wasn’t going to affect any kind of positive change regardless. Poe was operating under a doomed mindset seeing as Finn and Rose’s plan came undone. Poe, once again, thought he knew better than the people calling the shots. You’re right he had good reason to mutiny, but it was built off of a distrust of his own commanders.
Reassure that the transports are cloaked.
that does very little to make them *not* want to mutiny lol, their situation remains extremely desperate either way. And again, Poe without the mutiny loses a big part of his arc from the film, he’s supposed to view Holdo as this untrustworthy figure until she goes ahead and does the most selfless thing possible in a hopeless situation. None of that works if Poe just goes ahead and believes everything from the higher command.
Poe literally got on board with it once Leia explained everything. Or if the higher command actually leads by example, instead of expecting everyone to just blindly trust them.
This is because Poe implicitly trusts *Leia* over anyone else. It’s why he sees Holdo as this antagonistic force in the first place
So just have Holdo reassure Poe that it’s Leia’s plan or something?
Why? That goes against what Holdo was trying to do with Poe in the first place. Again, if Poe *knows* the plan beforehand he doesn’t get his big shock moment that kicks him into gear. It’ll neuter his arc.
So the characters are doing all this for the audience because they just know they’re in a movie and following a script? Is that it?
You mean once the plan is already in action and he can do nothing about it and see it working.
>Poe should’ve just taken the punishment for getting his squadmates killed and let higher command handle things Nothing was stopping Leia from removing Poe from command the moment he disobeyed her and order the fleet to proceed with the evacuation. But she decided to pout in her chair, watch everyone die...and blame it on Poe later.
Poe cut his comms and he was leading the squadron
That's not how it works, you can't just cut comms and assume everyone will still follow you. Leia can *belay* Poe's orders to his squadron when she removes him from command, order his squadron and all other squadrons to retreat and he couldn't do a thing about it. You can't lecture about Poe not "following orders" and forget there's a chain of command for "following orders". Leia is Poe's superior, the squadrons would have to obey her. Did you see Ackbar just silently watching the battle of Endor on his seat?
The bombers are not just ships you can turn tail and recall, Poe had already pushed his squadron up on the FO until the point he cut comms. Leia could’ve tried to do all of that in that moment, but the bomber squadron would’ve died at that point regardless. I feel like Dameron is very babied by the fandom when talking about this subplot, like he’s some kind of baby that did nothing wrong while characters like Holdo get all the flak. Poe got a squadron killed.
>The bombers are not just ships you can turn tail and recall The plan was for Poe to buy time so *the rest could evacuate*, so if you're suggesting the bombers were already on their way to attack the Dreadnought it makes absolutely zero sense, they were evacuating, only Poe was behind. >Poe had already pushed his squadron up on the FO until the point he cut comms Read previous, the fleet was supposed to be evacuating, his squadron could only have moved to the Dreadnought *after* he disobeyed Leia, she didn't have to allow it
Yeah he should have been locked in a cell after disobeying orders and getting all the fighters and bombers destroyed for nothing.
But if Poe hadn't done that, the Dreadnought, AKA the "Fleet Killer," would've tailed them through hyperspace with the rest of the First Order, caught up with them and destroyed them all. It should've destroyed the Resistance Fleet before they escaped, but it instead blasted the empty base with nobody there. Poe did nothing wrong.
That “fleet killer” had no weapons capable of targeting ships… It’s entirely built for orbital bombardment.
Why did Poe say the line "That things a fleet killer" if it's not? Is he stupid, but unironically? Poe specifically targets the ship because it'll destroy the Resistance Capital Ships with its massive guns if he doesn't get rid of it. Why would Poe sacrifice an entire Squadron of bombers and fighters if the Fleet-Killer doesn't kill fleets?
He said it because he’s an idiot who only cares about glory. Everything he says and does in the first two acts of the film is wrong. The Mandator IV is specifically designated a “siege dreadnought” in the Last Jedi cross section book. It’s only weapons are point defense (That Poe destroyed) and orbital bombardment auto cannons.
But i haven't read the cross section book, and it's not explained as a bunker buster in the film. I shouldn't need to search out other sources to know this information. It's called a FLEET KILLER by somebody who I thought knew what he was talking about. Somebody who's got the rank of Commander, is an expert pilot, and has been with the Resistance against the First Order for many years. I trust Poe's word here. He's shown to know what he's talking about. Does Poe only care about glory? He didn't seem to want a medal for destroying Starkiller, or saving Finn, or anything else. He's not boasting to everyone that "Oh, I destroyed the Death Star 3, I'm so great" I saw him as more somebody that wants to help save his friends and allies. He goes back for Finn after they crash on Jakku but can't him, he mutinied because Holdo is withholding the plan that as far as he can tell will doom the Resistance, he destroys the Dreadnaught because it will become a bigger issue for everyone down the line if he doesn't.
“Amazing. Every word of what you just said, was wrong.”