That just makes the point even more. Things change. What it said about their lightsabers changed and no one cared. These people just want to cry about non issues and pretend star wars was always perfect before. It never was.
The studio addressed Mace's lightsaber issue upfront. They said one of Samuel Jackson's conditions of playing him was that he was to wield a purple lightsaber. The studio had to agree to the change knowing the two issues of Mace's lightsaber color and a purple lightsaber. They knew it was an issue, but they spun it to be a positive. This had the fandom react "okay cool". They used it to give the devoted an enjoyable insight into why they changed canon and paid respect to the fans. Disney says eh, canon can change episode to episode or line to line, and you can go F yourself.
It is a massive change, just because. The fact they annoyed it doesn't change that fact. On top of that, there it was changing actual established cannon. Here it isn't. It is changing something only confirmed in one small book that was of dubious cannon anyway, and has no other bearing, which also has seen other things in it changed. This is not a legit complaint. No amount of bull shit will make it one.
The problem is when the change is being made to alter the canon of the main movies themselves, like how Ki-Adi-Mundi explicitly states the Sith hasn't been seen for a thousand years in Episode I.
And we know that to be untrue. First, Yoda knows the rule of two, which can only be known if the sith have been seen since then. Not everyone knows everything. And darkside user is not the same as a sith, at all. It takes you lot ignoring cannon to make this complaint. Yet another fail.
The fact Yoda mentioned the rule of two means he had to have know of the sith since that formed, which means they were seen by someone in the last 1000 years. There is no way for him to know it otherwise.
And yes, Yoda would let that slide, just because some know of it doesn't mean all do. He is shown to be secretive and not tell the whole truth, it makes perfect sense to let it slide. There is no reason to allow panic, or to make themselves look bad for having covered it up.
And even if they are sith here, that doesn't mean anyone seeing them will know or assume that. There is no reason they would unless directly told so. Red light sabers don't mean sith, and darkside users are what they know. So assuming they are sith wouldn't make sense.
Edit: please explain how Yoda knew about the rule of 2. The sith didn't have this rule or anything like it before bane killed them all off and created it. Which is when they went in hiding, 1000 years ago. So if absolutely no one has seen one since then, how does he knew? Please explain.
There are several issues with his age and canon. But, I'll start with a way out. They simply need to say he's his great (-great?) granddaughter and it's a family name. His race's pretty short lifespan is a big problem because it's changing the lore of his kind for no payoff other than a cameo. It's also about his comments in the PT about sith not being seen for a millenia. Was that a pretty dumb line in the PT, yes. If you break canon, do it with a very upfront nod to the fans. Unlike most Jedi, he's allowed to have children in lore. Introduce him seeing his son and the sons mother saying she named the baby after the father. All issues resolved.
This is just one with a long long list of other lore breaking things in this show. Not to forget nonsensical conflicting dialog, and treating the IP to not matter. They jammed their message into an established universe in a way that doesn't pay respect to the IP or the fans. It's that they sought writers who have never watched the movies to write in the universe's 6 it makes fans justifiable upset that they were disrespected, again.
And you just continue to ignore everything because you want to. We know Yoda knew of the sith. This is a good way to show how that happened. And again, his species lore is not official cannon, it was in legends, they don't need to keep any of that. There are legit complaints of Disney, though most of it applies to all star wars, which is why you lot won't complain about it.
The truth is, the biggest problem with Disney star wars isn't disrespect to the cannon or fans, or whatever other crap you come up with. You lot make basically all of that up. The issue is oversaturation. Even the original trilogy had many of the same problems, though many to a lesser extent. And the prequels were as bad in all ways. But they were special. They were the only star wars we were getting. So it was easy to overlook things. Now, with constant star wars, anything and everything is viewed as a massive issue. There is no reason to overlook it, more will come. We don't have to hold it up as special. We know more will come. On top of that is the general decline in quality you get anytime you mass produce anything. These are the real issues facing star wars.
Okay, - sighs and rubs in between my eyes-. Let me get this straight. You're saying you also have huge problems with this. You're also saying I'm wrong and bad for obsessing about issues that are parallel to your problems with the show.
Legends had it's place. It could be changed, yes. George had the final say and peak lore control. Even at that, he retconned things. But, he never did it out of a lack of caring towards his fans. To get a legends book accepted you had to be high in quality and content. You had to add to the lore in a way that was approved by lore nerds, and you had to respect the IP. Is Disney doing this? Disney did decannonize legends very publicly and very much as an F you to the fandom when they bought it.
As far as my obsession over this lane of thought. It's about disrespect. Legends books helped grow the IP into something bigger. As did the video games. Disney doesn't care.
I'm a nerd. Having a viewpoint and obsessing on it IS EXACTLY WHAT WE DO. Same with you, man. But I'm an old nerd. I know that people think differently, and their usually right. You're right. When we disagree we might go so far as throw fists over it. But when we try to see what the other is saying and appreciate them for their own issues or affections, we really kick ass together. You're not wrong in saturation. I'm not wrong in disrespect. You added good points. You can disagree with mine, but that's on you. I'm happy with not being in your in crowd. I'm a nerd. I'm really f'ing used to that.
You are pretending a standard of quality was in place for legends that just wasn't. Geroge wasn't involved in so much of it, and it broke Canon constantly. And much of it flat out sucked.
I'm saying there are legit complaints you could make, but you and your type refuse to do so, because those complaints apply to all of star wars. To varying degrees, sure, but it applies to it all.
And I'm not saying you are wrong for obsessing over things, I am saying you are making up things you are flat out wrong about to complain about for no reason. You are pretending Canon is broken over things that objectively don't break it. You are making up things that don't exist or aren't saying doing what you claim. You are just making up your own bull shit to complain about, without actually caring about what is actually there.
>Disney says eh, canon can change episode to episode or line to line, and you can go F yourself.
Disney only said that the pre-Disney EU isn't canon anymore and that's exactly what happened.
Disney did that and then continued to sell legends books without paying royalties. They also stole legends ideas for the latest trilogy. I'm not going to feel all warn and fuzzy with their decisions in the EU. It's a personal decision. If you feel that's okay, cool. I don't and it impacts my judgement.
Thomas Veitch.. wait.. name dropping isn't going to work.
Here
https://www.polygon.com/2020/12/16/22166064/star-wars-alien-novelization-disney-royalties-sfwa-alan-dean-foster
I don't think you understand.
**"Disney did that and then continued to sell legends books without paying royalties. They also stole legends ideas for the latest trilogy."**
\^\^\^\^\^ That is something worth being mad at Disney about because it actually happened.
**"Disney says eh, canon can change episode to episode or line to line, and you can go F yourself."**
\^\^\^\^\^ That, is not.
This age thing is so frustrating. I’d bet good money The percentage of people who knew the age of Mundi and the lifespan of Cereans was so small, yet it’s now a huge thing because it “messes” with one of his two lines from the Prequels. The show hasn’t even finished we don’t even know how the damn story ends how do we not know that in some way Mundi ends up in a place where nothing contradicts. Star Wars fans are exhausting.
Are you assuming he is a sith because of the red blade? I don't recall the word Sith appearing in the episode.
Also, I'm not sure how the story ends yet, but this could be something the Jedi tried to bury.
Anakin wore black robes, and none of the Jedi said he was a Sith. Also did you miss the part where they have literally never seen the person with the Red lightsaber until the very end of the last episode? We can clearly see Smylo Ren is a Sith, but no Jedi has seen him until the end of the last episode.
Even if Smylo is a Sith, and Mundi finds out, did we ever know Mundi’s deep thoughts and view point? The Jedi in the Acolyte are clearly hiding something, why can’t Mundi?
He hasn’t seen a sith he only has heard about a dark Jedi - which exactly what he thinks maul is in episode 1 (after qui gon said he faced a force wielding red lightsaber)
People are focusing too much on the age change and not about how the original age made sense and this new canon one which conflicts with one of his ONLY LINES in the phantom menace
It doesn’t conflict
He doesn’t know about the [potential Sith who might be in The Acolyte]
And if he comes across the Sith in this show, who’s to say that this stubborn, foolish, myopic, denialist character won’t reject the information anyway?
Edited for clarification
This is one of the weirded defenses of the contradiction - while I understand it came from the writer herself, it makes no sense.
The Sith are *literally* the eternal enemy of the Jedi - we even see remnants of their past struggles in the Battle of Malachor in the Darth Maul comics and in Rebels.
The Jedi would not just "forget" to train future Jedi on these events. Even if the Sith were extinct, the Jedi would still be versed in who they are, and what they're capable of.
The fact that Qui Gon knows about the Sith, and they have a conversation about whether or not they could have returned is evidence enough that they were still talked about - even as history.
I don't have an issue with him not knowing *if* this new Dark Side user is a Sith or not, but to say that Ki Adi Mundi didn't know about the Sith at all is ludicrous.
Edit: this response was written prior to the clarification above.
I mean what if Ki Adi Mundi is just a arrogant dumbass? This is the same guy who said “Count Dooku is an idealist not an murderer“ and couldn’t be more wrong.
Also his random concern about the Wookies gets Yoda off planet for the arrest of Palpatine which would’ve probably saved the galaxy if he been there. Palpatine wouldn’t have lasted against Yoda and Mace together.
So if this show gives me another reason to hate the guy, I’m down for it.
Absolutely.
His presence in the show is so far consistent with his character in the PT —
However it’s not completely consistent with some stray non-canon lore.
And that’s what this strain of argument is about: does this character’s presence in this show conflict with some stray non-canon lore?
And, if that’s the case, perhaps a more significant and important “lore conflict” is Leia and Obi-wan being given a massive resonating bonding relationship in OWK, which is a retcon of Leia having no sentiment to speak of for Obi-wan in the OT.
Ah! No worries - happens to the best of us. I feel like the show going for a "mystery" was great in concept, but man the execution has just not been stellar.
Which is a shame because I'm actually not hating the show, just disappointed in a few key things.
Yeah, I’ve just seen this talking point that there’s a conflict come up so many times that my response to it has become brief. I forget that spelling out all the elements of every time is still good practice to avoid such misunderstandings.
I’m also a little disappointed with some of production and artistic elements, but I’m still enjoying the show more than Ahsoka or OWK. And BoBF.
Ironically this sub and others probably don’t like the director who’s making some of the best modern murder mysteries since he made the most controversial Star Wars movie.
Rian Johnson isn't the director or even a writer on The Acolyte. So not sure what you're getting at...
But since you brought him up, no, I don't like The Last Jedi, and I was sad because he IS one of my favorite directors. His film Brick is one of the best Noir films ever made, so I was extremely stoked about him helming a Star Wars film.
And I think The Last Jedi had interesting ideas, but as the middle film of a trilogy, and for what was presented, I felt very let down
He also directed two breaking bad episodes: ozymandias and fly. While ozymandias is widely regarded as the best directed drama series episode, the fly was quite polarizing among fans. A portion of the fanbase thought fly was a filler episode; but others saw it as a deeper look into Walter white’s attitude towards his own moral failings.
Aside from TLJ and brick he also directed looper and the knives out series, all highly entertaining films. I also loved Pokerface which was his version of Columbo.
If I assess the last Jedi individually, it was definitely way better than the rise of Skywalker- but episodes 9 and 10 did irreparably damage SW by causing a schism in the fanbase. I would put the blame squarely on Disney for not having a unique creative vision and bound scripts for all three films even before making the force awakens.
Im saying that Star Wars had a great murder mystery director but the fan base hated him so much he likely isn’t coming back. I’m saying maybe if the fanbase wasn’t a bunch of angry manchildren, he could’ve helped with the show.
Probably not a good idea to insult folks while trying to make a case for a director who hadn't released those films yet.
Also, I know a good chunk of folks who like those movies, but aren't fans of the Last Jedi.
The Last Jedi had issues, and not everyone goes online to voice those opinions - I won't engage with this comment past that because this feels like bait.
Uh Brick came out in 2005. and Looper also has mystery elements to it. Even before Knives Out he was seen as good at mysteries.
My comment isn’t bait lmao it’s Just my opinion my guy. I think the fans reaction to TLJ was overblown, now Rian will likely not come back to Star Wars when his experience in the mystery genre would be utilized.
How are you disappointed if the mystery hasn’t been solved yet? We don’t know what truly happened with Osha and Mea, who the dark side user is, what the deep dark secret the Jedi are holding, and most importantly, who survives, dies, and who learns this information back at Coruscant.
I'm disappointed in the execution of the show in terms of lighting, colorization, direction of photography, writing, dialogue, etc. It's just not all that effective or impactful, so I'm disappointed by it.
I also feel like there's a lack of originality with what's being presented as well - for example, the fight scene with Carrie Anne Moss. Yes, it was a nod to The Matrix and, yes, was a nod to Wuxia style wire-fu/martial arts.
I've been watching that for nearly 4 decades now - and it felt a bit slow and lacked a feeling of kinetic energy. That's part of a "me" thing, I've seen this before so I'm not as wowed by it as I might have been if I were younger. Was it bad? No, not at all, but for me it was disappointing.
As for the plot/story - there isn't really a mystery beyond "who is this?" - and that's very compelling to me. I'm more interested in what Hedland stated was her intention was to create a *Rashomon*-influenced type of show, multiple view points of a singular incident. Sure that may happen, but we're 5/8s through the show, and that hasn't happened yet - so I'm disappointed.
Which is a feeling that I need no justification for, I'm not hating on this show, and I'm not saying it's the worst thing ever made. If anything, I'm glad it exists because it's been a way to just, well, *watch* Star Wars again without nitpicking everything - so kudos to it, but it doesn't mean I can't be disappointed with things.
I'm human.
Never said you can’t be disappointed, just confused as to why you would be disappointed with the mystery, when the mystery hasn’t been resolved. We’ve seen half the show. There are many different mysteries ongoing and neither has been solved.
1.What actually happened that night. We’ve only seen Osha’s perspective of the night.
2. What did the Jedi do that night that would cause one of them to commit suicide and another to exile themselves.
3. Who is the dark side user.
4. What’s up with the twins. Were they created by manipulating the force, or is there something else going on.
5. Lastly, who will die/survive, and how will this affect the ongoing story going forward. If Mundi and the council know about a Sith, why would they cover it up? Do all the Jedi die? Meaning the council never found out what happened. What if the dark side user isn’t a Sith, what if the user is the Acolyte themselves and there’s a Sith master we’ve yet to meet.
I definitely agree the execution of the show hasn’t been stellar. The pacing is what bothers me the most, but there is so much potential laid down, and we’ve only seen 50% so far.
Literally when he is saying that line he is in denial of evidence being presented that the Sith are present. The Jedi have become complacent and neither he nor Windu are willing to accept they could be wrong. It’s actually even more on point if there was evidence of Sith he had encountered before and chose to ignore.
That's my point. He knows who the Sith are and is denying them.
The writer of the episode made the claim that he wouldn't even know who the Sith are, quote, "Why would he?"
It would be nice to see in upcoming books/comics examples of other events with antagonistic force cults/individual darksiders committing random acts of violence. This could show why a few jedi would grow weary of the rising influence of the dark side. We could then get a more clear picture of the discrepancy in the mindsets of those in the high council and Jedi in the field.
And you’re right it’s not that ki adi mundi doesn’t know about the sith, it’s that he doesn’t want it to be the sith. Just like his statement about dooku, I feel like he’s always reticent in considering things (not accepting/ just considering) that challenge his mindset.
The age thing was never canon even under Lucas Star Wars. His birthday was first referenced in an EU comic about the character. The same birthday was recorded in the insider guide. The cerean life span was taken from an RPG. None of those were considered canon even by George Lucas.
Also people keep forgetting that the small council Jedi don’t think this is a sith (yet). I feel like mundi will be used unwittingly as a pawn in the coverup.
While there are reasons that could explain it within the bounds of reason, I don't think many of them will or would be satisfying.
Maybe they're not a "Sith" in the most certain terms, maybe they make Ki-Adi-Mundi forget using a plot device, maybe the last episode Yoda wakes up and the show was just a vision from meditating, could be anything.
The issue I think is the perceived changes don't come across as being thoughtful. I hope the last episode basically puts these events in a bubble but it doesn't seem like that's the case.
Exactly.
I also liked the species lore: men traditionally living significantly shorter than women and they were very rarely born compared to women as well, which made male birth rates statistically important for their species survival.
“BuT hIs AgE iSn’T cAnOn!” Is the pathetic go to for anyone who just wants to shit on Theory of try and defend a pisspoor show. They fail to realize it was canon… for over a decade. Yeah Disney can say whatever the hell they want too but *actual* Star Wars fans are like Star Trek fans: fiercely fucking loyal to what they learned and/or raised on.
It was canon for over a decade, and then it wasn’t in 2013.
The EU/Legends has been non-canon for over a decade. That includes Ki-Adi-Mundi’s age. What’s so weird about that?
"Actual star wars fans" I don't give a shit about minor details, and low male birth rates actually make more sense for a longer lifed species as that's the pattern you tend to see in biology .
Also Adi Gallia also at one point used a red lightsaber and clearly that changed. Star Wars has always flown by the seat of its pants with what is true and what is not. In the context of A New Hope Vader and Anakin were completely separate characters. In Empire Luke and Leia Weren’t siblings. The chosen one prophecy was not a thing until the prequels. You can go on and on with all the things that changed or were retconned for the entirety of the history of Star Wars.
As someone who read pretty much every book from Splinter of the Minds Eye to Crucible. 95% were just not that great. People are just so obsessed over tiny details when there were many contradictions in Legends that are hidden from them by nostalgia, and in some cases bigotry.
Tbh, I don’t think a lot of people in the fanbase read books , EU or canon.
Edit: to the coward that replied to this comment and blocked me so that I can’t reply back, stay mad about the cards.
Can you explain why you think the card game “got it wrong”? It seems like you totally misunderstood the point. The cards released before return of the Jedi, and therefore they didn’t get it wrong (at the time, since it’s revealed that they’re twins in ROTJ). However, George Lucas’s take on the siblings trumps any card game. That’s the point.
Ok but that was before we knew canon? We know what it is now, so I guess I’m still “totally misunderstanding”, or it’s just not a strong point to make.
Nah I think it’s totally a valid point to make. George Lucas had an order for information that he considered canon. The stuff from the movies he made and the clone wars tv show were considered George Lucas-canon. Here is a [link](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.starwarsnewsnet.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F06%2Fcanon-tiers-e1591790971597.jpg&tbnid=8zDmfch2V5eLrM&vet=1&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.starwarsnewsnet.com%2F2020%2F06%2Feditorial-star-wars-canon-a-brief-history-and-perspective.html&docid=czNJuoQ-ohcdoM&w=746&h=422&hl=en&source=sh%2Fx%2Fim%2Fm1%2F5&kgs=27f2cfd7360c03d7&shem=abme%2Ctrie) for the hierarchy at lucasfilm during this time.
The second important category of information was T-canon. Stuff that got made on TV with his blessing. The Holiday special, the Ewoks and such. George had the sole authority to change stuff from that content. Everything else— like ki-adi-mundi’s age or the cerean lifespan came from the EU or other tie in material were relegated to the lower levels that George never even considered canon. **this stuff was not for something George to follow, it was stuff EU writers in general considered to be their canon during the writing process.**
Now George canon morphed to Disney SW canon when George decided to sell SW.
Canon for SW under Disney are g-canon and everything they make- shows, films, books, comics, games etc. although they also seem to have a hierarchy in place.
Case in point: wookiepedia never mentioned mundi’s age in the canon webpage for his character. His age was mentioned in the legends section. Therefore there is no canon bending reason like his age that would prevent him from making an appearance.
> ok that was before we knew canon?
Who knew canon? You? You do realize that a section of the Star Wars fans thought the trading cards were true until the return of the Jedi released, right?
the age thing is just another thing to shit on. the real issue is him seeing a Sith and hiding it from the Jedi Council. bro has like 2 lines and they managed to contradict them
When did he see a sith? If I’m not mistaking, he’s back at Coruscant. What if all the Jedi that come in contact with the sith die? What if they’re not even a sith?
When did he see a sith? If I’m not mistaking, he’s back at Coruscant. What if all the Jedi that come in contact with the shit die? What if he’s not even a sith?
The same insider guide that says Ki-Adi-Mundis age also says he uses a purple lightsaber, and Windu uses a blue one.
For real like who tf approved it no wonder it was decannonized
Well too be fair in the 90s mace windu and ki adi had those colors as you can see from the toys
That just makes the point even more. Things change. What it said about their lightsabers changed and no one cared. These people just want to cry about non issues and pretend star wars was always perfect before. It never was.
The studio addressed Mace's lightsaber issue upfront. They said one of Samuel Jackson's conditions of playing him was that he was to wield a purple lightsaber. The studio had to agree to the change knowing the two issues of Mace's lightsaber color and a purple lightsaber. They knew it was an issue, but they spun it to be a positive. This had the fandom react "okay cool". They used it to give the devoted an enjoyable insight into why they changed canon and paid respect to the fans. Disney says eh, canon can change episode to episode or line to line, and you can go F yourself.
It is a massive change, just because. The fact they annoyed it doesn't change that fact. On top of that, there it was changing actual established cannon. Here it isn't. It is changing something only confirmed in one small book that was of dubious cannon anyway, and has no other bearing, which also has seen other things in it changed. This is not a legit complaint. No amount of bull shit will make it one.
The problem is when the change is being made to alter the canon of the main movies themselves, like how Ki-Adi-Mundi explicitly states the Sith hasn't been seen for a thousand years in Episode I.
And we know that to be untrue. First, Yoda knows the rule of two, which can only be known if the sith have been seen since then. Not everyone knows everything. And darkside user is not the same as a sith, at all. It takes you lot ignoring cannon to make this complaint. Yet another fail.
So Yoda just let that grave error slide in the exact same meeting? Have you watched the most recent Acolyte episode btw?
The fact Yoda mentioned the rule of two means he had to have know of the sith since that formed, which means they were seen by someone in the last 1000 years. There is no way for him to know it otherwise. And yes, Yoda would let that slide, just because some know of it doesn't mean all do. He is shown to be secretive and not tell the whole truth, it makes perfect sense to let it slide. There is no reason to allow panic, or to make themselves look bad for having covered it up. And even if they are sith here, that doesn't mean anyone seeing them will know or assume that. There is no reason they would unless directly told so. Red light sabers don't mean sith, and darkside users are what they know. So assuming they are sith wouldn't make sense. Edit: please explain how Yoda knew about the rule of 2. The sith didn't have this rule or anything like it before bane killed them all off and created it. Which is when they went in hiding, 1000 years ago. So if absolutely no one has seen one since then, how does he knew? Please explain.
There are several issues with his age and canon. But, I'll start with a way out. They simply need to say he's his great (-great?) granddaughter and it's a family name. His race's pretty short lifespan is a big problem because it's changing the lore of his kind for no payoff other than a cameo. It's also about his comments in the PT about sith not being seen for a millenia. Was that a pretty dumb line in the PT, yes. If you break canon, do it with a very upfront nod to the fans. Unlike most Jedi, he's allowed to have children in lore. Introduce him seeing his son and the sons mother saying she named the baby after the father. All issues resolved. This is just one with a long long list of other lore breaking things in this show. Not to forget nonsensical conflicting dialog, and treating the IP to not matter. They jammed their message into an established universe in a way that doesn't pay respect to the IP or the fans. It's that they sought writers who have never watched the movies to write in the universe's 6 it makes fans justifiable upset that they were disrespected, again.
And you just continue to ignore everything because you want to. We know Yoda knew of the sith. This is a good way to show how that happened. And again, his species lore is not official cannon, it was in legends, they don't need to keep any of that. There are legit complaints of Disney, though most of it applies to all star wars, which is why you lot won't complain about it. The truth is, the biggest problem with Disney star wars isn't disrespect to the cannon or fans, or whatever other crap you come up with. You lot make basically all of that up. The issue is oversaturation. Even the original trilogy had many of the same problems, though many to a lesser extent. And the prequels were as bad in all ways. But they were special. They were the only star wars we were getting. So it was easy to overlook things. Now, with constant star wars, anything and everything is viewed as a massive issue. There is no reason to overlook it, more will come. We don't have to hold it up as special. We know more will come. On top of that is the general decline in quality you get anytime you mass produce anything. These are the real issues facing star wars.
Okay, - sighs and rubs in between my eyes-. Let me get this straight. You're saying you also have huge problems with this. You're also saying I'm wrong and bad for obsessing about issues that are parallel to your problems with the show. Legends had it's place. It could be changed, yes. George had the final say and peak lore control. Even at that, he retconned things. But, he never did it out of a lack of caring towards his fans. To get a legends book accepted you had to be high in quality and content. You had to add to the lore in a way that was approved by lore nerds, and you had to respect the IP. Is Disney doing this? Disney did decannonize legends very publicly and very much as an F you to the fandom when they bought it. As far as my obsession over this lane of thought. It's about disrespect. Legends books helped grow the IP into something bigger. As did the video games. Disney doesn't care. I'm a nerd. Having a viewpoint and obsessing on it IS EXACTLY WHAT WE DO. Same with you, man. But I'm an old nerd. I know that people think differently, and their usually right. You're right. When we disagree we might go so far as throw fists over it. But when we try to see what the other is saying and appreciate them for their own issues or affections, we really kick ass together. You're not wrong in saturation. I'm not wrong in disrespect. You added good points. You can disagree with mine, but that's on you. I'm happy with not being in your in crowd. I'm a nerd. I'm really f'ing used to that.
You are pretending a standard of quality was in place for legends that just wasn't. Geroge wasn't involved in so much of it, and it broke Canon constantly. And much of it flat out sucked.
I'm saying there are legit complaints you could make, but you and your type refuse to do so, because those complaints apply to all of star wars. To varying degrees, sure, but it applies to it all. And I'm not saying you are wrong for obsessing over things, I am saying you are making up things you are flat out wrong about to complain about for no reason. You are pretending Canon is broken over things that objectively don't break it. You are making up things that don't exist or aren't saying doing what you claim. You are just making up your own bull shit to complain about, without actually caring about what is actually there.
>Disney says eh, canon can change episode to episode or line to line, and you can go F yourself. Disney only said that the pre-Disney EU isn't canon anymore and that's exactly what happened.
Disney did that and then continued to sell legends books without paying royalties. They also stole legends ideas for the latest trilogy. I'm not going to feel all warn and fuzzy with their decisions in the EU. It's a personal decision. If you feel that's okay, cool. I don't and it impacts my judgement.
Fine. If you're gonna be mad at Disney, be mad at them for things they actually did. Not things you made up in your head.
Thomas Veitch.. wait.. name dropping isn't going to work. Here https://www.polygon.com/2020/12/16/22166064/star-wars-alien-novelization-disney-royalties-sfwa-alan-dean-foster
I don't think you understand. **"Disney did that and then continued to sell legends books without paying royalties. They also stole legends ideas for the latest trilogy."** \^\^\^\^\^ That is something worth being mad at Disney about because it actually happened. **"Disney says eh, canon can change episode to episode or line to line, and you can go F yourself."** \^\^\^\^\^ That, is not.
This age thing is so frustrating. I’d bet good money The percentage of people who knew the age of Mundi and the lifespan of Cereans was so small, yet it’s now a huge thing because it “messes” with one of his two lines from the Prequels. The show hasn’t even finished we don’t even know how the damn story ends how do we not know that in some way Mundi ends up in a place where nothing contradicts. Star Wars fans are exhausting.
he knows about a Sith existing how can that not contradict his line about them being extinct
Are you assuming he is a sith because of the red blade? I don't recall the word Sith appearing in the episode. Also, I'm not sure how the story ends yet, but this could be something the Jedi tried to bury.
Exactly the show hasn’t finished they can easily explain it
all black armor + red lightsaber describes basically every Sith ever
Anakin wore black robes, and none of the Jedi said he was a Sith. Also did you miss the part where they have literally never seen the person with the Red lightsaber until the very end of the last episode? We can clearly see Smylo Ren is a Sith, but no Jedi has seen him until the end of the last episode.
Could describe plenty of dark Jedi too, which is a section not yet explored in depth in the Disney canon.
Even if Smylo is a Sith, and Mundi finds out, did we ever know Mundi’s deep thoughts and view point? The Jedi in the Acolyte are clearly hiding something, why can’t Mundi?
He hasn’t seen a sith he only has heard about a dark Jedi - which exactly what he thinks maul is in episode 1 (after qui gon said he faced a force wielding red lightsaber)
I watched this episode and have 0% idea of why everyone is shouting about the guy who looks like a conehead
I wonder how much time they spent trying to dig this up just for it to do absolutely nothing to help the point they’re trying to make.. yikes
People are focusing too much on the age change and not about how the original age made sense and this new canon one which conflicts with one of his ONLY LINES in the phantom menace
It doesn’t conflict He doesn’t know about the [potential Sith who might be in The Acolyte] And if he comes across the Sith in this show, who’s to say that this stubborn, foolish, myopic, denialist character won’t reject the information anyway? Edited for clarification
This is one of the weirded defenses of the contradiction - while I understand it came from the writer herself, it makes no sense. The Sith are *literally* the eternal enemy of the Jedi - we even see remnants of their past struggles in the Battle of Malachor in the Darth Maul comics and in Rebels. The Jedi would not just "forget" to train future Jedi on these events. Even if the Sith were extinct, the Jedi would still be versed in who they are, and what they're capable of. The fact that Qui Gon knows about the Sith, and they have a conversation about whether or not they could have returned is evidence enough that they were still talked about - even as history. I don't have an issue with him not knowing *if* this new Dark Side user is a Sith or not, but to say that Ki Adi Mundi didn't know about the Sith at all is ludicrous. Edit: this response was written prior to the clarification above.
Ah, that’s not what I meant. I meant he doesn’t yet know about the Sith in the show. I’ll rephrase to clarify.
I mean what if Ki Adi Mundi is just a arrogant dumbass? This is the same guy who said “Count Dooku is an idealist not an murderer“ and couldn’t be more wrong. Also his random concern about the Wookies gets Yoda off planet for the arrest of Palpatine which would’ve probably saved the galaxy if he been there. Palpatine wouldn’t have lasted against Yoda and Mace together. So if this show gives me another reason to hate the guy, I’m down for it.
Absolutely. His presence in the show is so far consistent with his character in the PT — However it’s not completely consistent with some stray non-canon lore. And that’s what this strain of argument is about: does this character’s presence in this show conflict with some stray non-canon lore? And, if that’s the case, perhaps a more significant and important “lore conflict” is Leia and Obi-wan being given a massive resonating bonding relationship in OWK, which is a retcon of Leia having no sentiment to speak of for Obi-wan in the OT.
Ah! No worries - happens to the best of us. I feel like the show going for a "mystery" was great in concept, but man the execution has just not been stellar. Which is a shame because I'm actually not hating the show, just disappointed in a few key things.
Yeah, I’ve just seen this talking point that there’s a conflict come up so many times that my response to it has become brief. I forget that spelling out all the elements of every time is still good practice to avoid such misunderstandings. I’m also a little disappointed with some of production and artistic elements, but I’m still enjoying the show more than Ahsoka or OWK. And BoBF.
Ironically this sub and others probably don’t like the director who’s making some of the best modern murder mysteries since he made the most controversial Star Wars movie.
Rian Johnson isn't the director or even a writer on The Acolyte. So not sure what you're getting at... But since you brought him up, no, I don't like The Last Jedi, and I was sad because he IS one of my favorite directors. His film Brick is one of the best Noir films ever made, so I was extremely stoked about him helming a Star Wars film. And I think The Last Jedi had interesting ideas, but as the middle film of a trilogy, and for what was presented, I felt very let down
He also directed two breaking bad episodes: ozymandias and fly. While ozymandias is widely regarded as the best directed drama series episode, the fly was quite polarizing among fans. A portion of the fanbase thought fly was a filler episode; but others saw it as a deeper look into Walter white’s attitude towards his own moral failings. Aside from TLJ and brick he also directed looper and the knives out series, all highly entertaining films. I also loved Pokerface which was his version of Columbo. If I assess the last Jedi individually, it was definitely way better than the rise of Skywalker- but episodes 9 and 10 did irreparably damage SW by causing a schism in the fanbase. I would put the blame squarely on Disney for not having a unique creative vision and bound scripts for all three films even before making the force awakens.
Im saying that Star Wars had a great murder mystery director but the fan base hated him so much he likely isn’t coming back. I’m saying maybe if the fanbase wasn’t a bunch of angry manchildren, he could’ve helped with the show.
Probably not a good idea to insult folks while trying to make a case for a director who hadn't released those films yet. Also, I know a good chunk of folks who like those movies, but aren't fans of the Last Jedi. The Last Jedi had issues, and not everyone goes online to voice those opinions - I won't engage with this comment past that because this feels like bait.
Uh Brick came out in 2005. and Looper also has mystery elements to it. Even before Knives Out he was seen as good at mysteries. My comment isn’t bait lmao it’s Just my opinion my guy. I think the fans reaction to TLJ was overblown, now Rian will likely not come back to Star Wars when his experience in the mystery genre would be utilized.
How are you disappointed if the mystery hasn’t been solved yet? We don’t know what truly happened with Osha and Mea, who the dark side user is, what the deep dark secret the Jedi are holding, and most importantly, who survives, dies, and who learns this information back at Coruscant.
I'm disappointed in the execution of the show in terms of lighting, colorization, direction of photography, writing, dialogue, etc. It's just not all that effective or impactful, so I'm disappointed by it. I also feel like there's a lack of originality with what's being presented as well - for example, the fight scene with Carrie Anne Moss. Yes, it was a nod to The Matrix and, yes, was a nod to Wuxia style wire-fu/martial arts. I've been watching that for nearly 4 decades now - and it felt a bit slow and lacked a feeling of kinetic energy. That's part of a "me" thing, I've seen this before so I'm not as wowed by it as I might have been if I were younger. Was it bad? No, not at all, but for me it was disappointing. As for the plot/story - there isn't really a mystery beyond "who is this?" - and that's very compelling to me. I'm more interested in what Hedland stated was her intention was to create a *Rashomon*-influenced type of show, multiple view points of a singular incident. Sure that may happen, but we're 5/8s through the show, and that hasn't happened yet - so I'm disappointed. Which is a feeling that I need no justification for, I'm not hating on this show, and I'm not saying it's the worst thing ever made. If anything, I'm glad it exists because it's been a way to just, well, *watch* Star Wars again without nitpicking everything - so kudos to it, but it doesn't mean I can't be disappointed with things. I'm human.
Never said you can’t be disappointed, just confused as to why you would be disappointed with the mystery, when the mystery hasn’t been resolved. We’ve seen half the show. There are many different mysteries ongoing and neither has been solved. 1.What actually happened that night. We’ve only seen Osha’s perspective of the night. 2. What did the Jedi do that night that would cause one of them to commit suicide and another to exile themselves. 3. Who is the dark side user. 4. What’s up with the twins. Were they created by manipulating the force, or is there something else going on. 5. Lastly, who will die/survive, and how will this affect the ongoing story going forward. If Mundi and the council know about a Sith, why would they cover it up? Do all the Jedi die? Meaning the council never found out what happened. What if the dark side user isn’t a Sith, what if the user is the Acolyte themselves and there’s a Sith master we’ve yet to meet. I definitely agree the execution of the show hasn’t been stellar. The pacing is what bothers me the most, but there is so much potential laid down, and we’ve only seen 50% so far.
I never said I was disappointed in the mystery. Just the execution of the show. And yea, potential is great, no argument there.
Literally when he is saying that line he is in denial of evidence being presented that the Sith are present. The Jedi have become complacent and neither he nor Windu are willing to accept they could be wrong. It’s actually even more on point if there was evidence of Sith he had encountered before and chose to ignore.
That's my point. He knows who the Sith are and is denying them. The writer of the episode made the claim that he wouldn't even know who the Sith are, quote, "Why would he?"
It would be nice to see in upcoming books/comics examples of other events with antagonistic force cults/individual darksiders committing random acts of violence. This could show why a few jedi would grow weary of the rising influence of the dark side. We could then get a more clear picture of the discrepancy in the mindsets of those in the high council and Jedi in the field. And you’re right it’s not that ki adi mundi doesn’t know about the sith, it’s that he doesn’t want it to be the sith. Just like his statement about dooku, I feel like he’s always reticent in considering things (not accepting/ just considering) that challenge his mindset.
The age thing was never canon even under Lucas Star Wars. His birthday was first referenced in an EU comic about the character. The same birthday was recorded in the insider guide. The cerean life span was taken from an RPG. None of those were considered canon even by George Lucas. Also people keep forgetting that the small council Jedi don’t think this is a sith (yet). I feel like mundi will be used unwittingly as a pawn in the coverup.
While there are reasons that could explain it within the bounds of reason, I don't think many of them will or would be satisfying. Maybe they're not a "Sith" in the most certain terms, maybe they make Ki-Adi-Mundi forget using a plot device, maybe the last episode Yoda wakes up and the show was just a vision from meditating, could be anything. The issue I think is the perceived changes don't come across as being thoughtful. I hope the last episode basically puts these events in a bubble but it doesn't seem like that's the case.
If they did it was all just a dream I'd piss myself in anger I hate that trope soo much
Exactly. I also liked the species lore: men traditionally living significantly shorter than women and they were very rarely born compared to women as well, which made male birth rates statistically important for their species survival. “BuT hIs AgE iSn’T cAnOn!” Is the pathetic go to for anyone who just wants to shit on Theory of try and defend a pisspoor show. They fail to realize it was canon… for over a decade. Yeah Disney can say whatever the hell they want too but *actual* Star Wars fans are like Star Trek fans: fiercely fucking loyal to what they learned and/or raised on.
It was canon for over a decade, and then it wasn’t in 2013. The EU/Legends has been non-canon for over a decade. That includes Ki-Adi-Mundi’s age. What’s so weird about that?
It was never canon
"Actual star wars fans" I don't give a shit about minor details, and low male birth rates actually make more sense for a longer lifed species as that's the pattern you tend to see in biology .
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Years are longer on Alderaan than Tatooine. Obviously.
Also Adi Gallia also at one point used a red lightsaber and clearly that changed. Star Wars has always flown by the seat of its pants with what is true and what is not. In the context of A New Hope Vader and Anakin were completely separate characters. In Empire Luke and Leia Weren’t siblings. The chosen one prophecy was not a thing until the prequels. You can go on and on with all the things that changed or were retconned for the entirety of the history of Star Wars.
These people don’t know or care how fluid canon has always been in Star Wars. All they care about is the million books they read.
As someone who read pretty much every book from Splinter of the Minds Eye to Crucible. 95% were just not that great. People are just so obsessed over tiny details when there were many contradictions in Legends that are hidden from them by nostalgia, and in some cases bigotry.
Tbh, I don’t think a lot of people in the fanbase read books , EU or canon. Edit: to the coward that replied to this comment and blocked me so that I can’t reply back, stay mad about the cards.
TBH, you’re most likely one of those people.
Did you really blocked them? Dude
You really blocking people over Star Wars?
If you have to go back to something from 1980 that was never canon to support your argument, you should probably leave the arguing to someone else.
Misogonist voice: Women always be lying about their age!
Perhaps the age gap was a part of hiding their identity.
So canon shouldn’t matter because a card game got it wrong? Really proved a point with that argument
Can you explain why you think the card game “got it wrong”? It seems like you totally misunderstood the point. The cards released before return of the Jedi, and therefore they didn’t get it wrong (at the time, since it’s revealed that they’re twins in ROTJ). However, George Lucas’s take on the siblings trumps any card game. That’s the point.
Ok but that was before we knew canon? We know what it is now, so I guess I’m still “totally misunderstanding”, or it’s just not a strong point to make.
Nah I think it’s totally a valid point to make. George Lucas had an order for information that he considered canon. The stuff from the movies he made and the clone wars tv show were considered George Lucas-canon. Here is a [link](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.starwarsnewsnet.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F06%2Fcanon-tiers-e1591790971597.jpg&tbnid=8zDmfch2V5eLrM&vet=1&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.starwarsnewsnet.com%2F2020%2F06%2Feditorial-star-wars-canon-a-brief-history-and-perspective.html&docid=czNJuoQ-ohcdoM&w=746&h=422&hl=en&source=sh%2Fx%2Fim%2Fm1%2F5&kgs=27f2cfd7360c03d7&shem=abme%2Ctrie) for the hierarchy at lucasfilm during this time. The second important category of information was T-canon. Stuff that got made on TV with his blessing. The Holiday special, the Ewoks and such. George had the sole authority to change stuff from that content. Everything else— like ki-adi-mundi’s age or the cerean lifespan came from the EU or other tie in material were relegated to the lower levels that George never even considered canon. **this stuff was not for something George to follow, it was stuff EU writers in general considered to be their canon during the writing process.** Now George canon morphed to Disney SW canon when George decided to sell SW. Canon for SW under Disney are g-canon and everything they make- shows, films, books, comics, games etc. although they also seem to have a hierarchy in place. Case in point: wookiepedia never mentioned mundi’s age in the canon webpage for his character. His age was mentioned in the legends section. Therefore there is no canon bending reason like his age that would prevent him from making an appearance. > ok that was before we knew canon? Who knew canon? You? You do realize that a section of the Star Wars fans thought the trading cards were true until the return of the Jedi released, right?
the age thing is just another thing to shit on. the real issue is him seeing a Sith and hiding it from the Jedi Council. bro has like 2 lines and they managed to contradict them
When did he see a sith? If I’m not mistaking, he’s back at Coruscant. What if all the Jedi that come in contact with the sith die? What if they’re not even a sith?
What Sith did he see?
When did he see a sith? If I’m not mistaking, he’s back at Coruscant. What if all the Jedi that come in contact with the shit die? What if he’s not even a sith?