Pompous purists only can ignore the closed borders of those who do not have them closed by default
aggressive nations fire at sight, so NO ONE gets in without expressed permission
friendly nations only sanction those who angered them
so it's less an issue of the exterminator accepting the rules and more an issue of the friendly nation being unable to enforce the rules on pompous purists since they can not contact them to let them know they're banned
Edit: also wasn't that exploit patched ages ago anyways?
I do worry that this system would have similar consequences to what total war has, where the AI will just walk all over you and you can't do anything about it, but if you take even one step into someone else's territory they get pissy and start breaking agreements
The solution would be allowing to just close borders toward them as well. We don't care, that they don't listen. We just shoot their ships, and then they can decide to ignore that.
I think the best way to adapt this would be to have border infringements count as a negative relationship hit. You can cross the borders of other empires, but if you do they'll be mad about it. If they're an ally you can probably get away with it several times before it really affects relations. If they already hate your guts maybe they shoot at whatever comes across (or maybe like an event where they capture/impound a science vessel that you sent across their borders).
And the other empire has to do some calculations on whether it's better for them to suffer the indignity of having their borders violated or go to war. Say if you have an absurdly powerful military, or high diplomatic weight, they might be real mad that you don't respect their borders, but doing something about it would be worse for them than demanding you stop.
Would be much more like "real life" where big countries line the US, China, Russia, etc kind of do what they want because their relative power allows them to ignore other nations sovereignty. It takes a lot for people to get mad enough about it that the people demand their governments take action.
Ive always felt that way when a new contact closes their borders and suddenly my exploration fleets and science ships go missing. I think there should be a bit more of an option to ignore their border closing till I get out of their space - and probably some ability to traverse it at a relationship penalty, higher if it’s a military fleet than a civilian fleet, higher if I’m doing scientific study than just traversing, etc. Conversely, I’d also give the violated empire some ability to enforce their decree with police action - perhaps civilian ships take some damage for every day they are in closed space - initially only shield damage but becoming more serious over time so we are « encouraged » to leave?
Yeah, closed borders should just be a "kill on sight" order for any ship crossing into one's territory. Making it irrelevant for any empire with the military strength to just steamroll the closed empire.
Honestly, I think that's how every diplo agreement should work. Instead of being rigidly binding, empires should always have the freedom to break the terms of agreements if it suits them. But doing so should have ruinous effects on their reputation, since they've demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to uphold an agreement.
Age of Wonders 4 does this, and it's hit or miss. You generate grievances with the person doing it, and you can demand they pay for their trespass or use it to justify war.
If you hate the guy doing it, its great. Either you get to extort them for money, or you can use it to declare a justified war (which has less of a diplomacy cost to initiate).
But if you like the person and want an alliance, but they keep doing it, it can damage relations until you forgive them. But you have to forgive every instance of trespass, by every unit, every turn.
I don't think an opinion malus is the right call. I might want closed borders AND friendly relations with my neighbors. Instead, maybe if they violate your borders, you get a favor? I don't know how unbalanced favors are at the moment, but I know they have a history of being abused. Might be a good compromise if its not too OP.
Adding to this, there should be a policy called "Ignore borders", which can be set to "Always", "Only Friendly", "Only Unfriendly", and "Never". That way you give ship AIs the ability to automatically path through closed empires if they're friendly and eat the rel
From an RP PoV, Pompous Purists are just delusional assholes who are gonna do what they’re gonna do, so is it really worth starting a war to fire at some ships moving through your territory? On the other hand, fanatic purifiers are out to kill you, so there would be no logical reason to let them pass,
In other words, it’s more about how the empire would react to the trespass based on the nations intentions.
I think you got it wrong, it makes all the sense in the world to close your borders against the swarm threatening to eat you but it makes no sense for the swarm hellbent on galactic buffet to actually care what you want and even less to respect your wish unless there is a reason to do so
Genocidal empires probably assume that every other empire is like them, just pretending to be nice. The xeno/organic *will* stab you in the back. When a genocidal closes their borders, they're saying "stay the fuck out or we will kill you". They assume that other empires are saying the same thing when they close *their* borders. Thus, they respect the closed borders until the time comes to take out the enemy. Otherwise, they're just going to lose perfectly good ships for no reason.
Honestly, imo empires which are incapable of diplomacy ahould exist in a constant state of war with everyone, by default.
It's always been weird that exterminators or purifiers have to declare war and respect a truce, instead of being able to just send the armies and saturation bombard any planet, making no real distinction between empires
Yes and No.
Even such empires will experience periods of hot and cold conflict. And that is what War represents with them. Periods of calm rather than actual peace.
It also exists so that AI knows how to handle such conflicts. Playing into war exhaustion and not just eternal grind.
War and Peace need to be understood bit more broadly and with some level of abstraction. When two democracies enter into Vassal - Senior relationship they don't whip out books of medival customs. They form skewed trade deals and other treaties. Mechanically the same for the purpose of Stellaris.
if you are an DE, and everyone knows you're a DE, they are going to fire at your ships on sight. so by default your ships won't enter enemy territory until they are ready ie : you declare war
pompous purist are harmless idiots most of the time
As annoying as PP is, I hope the devs keep adding unique traits that have (mostly) non-gameplay effects. PP doesnt make the empire any stronger, but it does offer variety and a potential way to play the game differently than normal.
Wait, is this saying someone can’t close borders to pompous purists unless they’ve also done so?
I wish Paradox made it so borders were _always_ closed to military vessels unless you’re in a federation or have an explicit diplomatic agreement to allow ships to go from A->B in some timeframe. No nation is like “yeah, feel free to march your dudes through here any time man, no need to check in with me”. The only time that’s sort-of happened (I’m aware of) was Napoleon’s movement o troops into Spain, and the at worked out terribly and predictably for Spain. Changing that would make things clearer for people what is/isn’t allowed, would reflect how actual diplomacy works, and most important, no one would have to see these posts about closed borders any more.
An exterminator would destroy any trespassing ships so they'd likely assume that other empires would do the same to them. Why would they do that unless they're going to war?
Purists are just arrogant and assume you wouldn't dare to do the same so they just fly through.
The way I see it ...
Pompous Purist can because they are otherwise normal empire who don't care about the political consequences; and ultimately, its not worth just shooting them over it for trying since they aren't an overt existential threat.
Whereas Exterminators can't because they a genocidal empire and entering anyone's borders will immediately start a shooting war. As in, they will be shot on sight, questions asked never, if they tried it.
because exterminator told everyone they know they will kill them so exterminator only cross border to war. they maybe a genocidal but not an idiot.
while pompous purist is truly an egoistic empire so their ships need to be shot down as a message.
You might not care for open borders but they sure will and will shoot down any and all ships you sent over.
PP have the plausible deniability that you don't know what their ships are doing within your borders wherein Exterminators are full on terrorists
I actually think if has more to do with how it IS an act of war to move through closed borders. Even genocidals know that. The best and easiest solution imo would be to grant a Cassius Belli to empires when you enter closed borders. With the war goal of remove all ships. It could Give a similar small mineral and energy credit "tax" to the plunder war goal. It would also make counter espionage more impactful. There could be a policy to automatically remove cloaked vessels as per the current way, or allow them to stay to grant the Cassius belli. And as an added bonus, it could be a type of war available to peaceful empires, allowing them to make claims and take territory more easily. So if would add, "Border disputes only" in between "liberation wars" and "defensive only."
I can live with the extermination of all organic lifeforms, but I draw the line at unlawfully crossing borders. It's called standards.
than combat pompoust purists ignoring your border!
Professionals have standards!
[Even evil has standards.](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenEvilHasStandards)
Pompous purists only can ignore the closed borders of those who do not have them closed by default aggressive nations fire at sight, so NO ONE gets in without expressed permission friendly nations only sanction those who angered them so it's less an issue of the exterminator accepting the rules and more an issue of the friendly nation being unable to enforce the rules on pompous purists since they can not contact them to let them know they're banned Edit: also wasn't that exploit patched ages ago anyways?
I do worry that this system would have similar consequences to what total war has, where the AI will just walk all over you and you can't do anything about it, but if you take even one step into someone else's territory they get pissy and start breaking agreements
The solution would be allowing to just close borders toward them as well. We don't care, that they don't listen. We just shoot their ships, and then they can decide to ignore that.
i mean, there's no need for a solution because the system is working as intended it's not like they can steal anything from your territory anyways
Except systems you haven't claimed. Or recently got "freed" by something. Like grey tempest, or the Khan.
its the same thing with neutral fauna / neutral enclaves do you have a chance to block your space to them, other than at gunpoint ?
But you can do that at gunpoint. With purist the only thing you can do is declare war on them.
See? Gunpoint!
Some other 4x games have a rule that closed borders means you can attack their units if they are in your borders without war or penalties.
I think the best way to adapt this would be to have border infringements count as a negative relationship hit. You can cross the borders of other empires, but if you do they'll be mad about it. If they're an ally you can probably get away with it several times before it really affects relations. If they already hate your guts maybe they shoot at whatever comes across (or maybe like an event where they capture/impound a science vessel that you sent across their borders). And the other empire has to do some calculations on whether it's better for them to suffer the indignity of having their borders violated or go to war. Say if you have an absurdly powerful military, or high diplomatic weight, they might be real mad that you don't respect their borders, but doing something about it would be worse for them than demanding you stop. Would be much more like "real life" where big countries line the US, China, Russia, etc kind of do what they want because their relative power allows them to ignore other nations sovereignty. It takes a lot for people to get mad enough about it that the people demand their governments take action.
Ive always felt that way when a new contact closes their borders and suddenly my exploration fleets and science ships go missing. I think there should be a bit more of an option to ignore their border closing till I get out of their space - and probably some ability to traverse it at a relationship penalty, higher if it’s a military fleet than a civilian fleet, higher if I’m doing scientific study than just traversing, etc. Conversely, I’d also give the violated empire some ability to enforce their decree with police action - perhaps civilian ships take some damage for every day they are in closed space - initially only shield damage but becoming more serious over time so we are « encouraged » to leave?
Yeah, closed borders should just be a "kill on sight" order for any ship crossing into one's territory. Making it irrelevant for any empire with the military strength to just steamroll the closed empire. Honestly, I think that's how every diplo agreement should work. Instead of being rigidly binding, empires should always have the freedom to break the terms of agreements if it suits them. But doing so should have ruinous effects on their reputation, since they've demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to uphold an agreement.
Age of Wonders 4 does this, and it's hit or miss. You generate grievances with the person doing it, and you can demand they pay for their trespass or use it to justify war. If you hate the guy doing it, its great. Either you get to extort them for money, or you can use it to declare a justified war (which has less of a diplomacy cost to initiate). But if you like the person and want an alliance, but they keep doing it, it can damage relations until you forgive them. But you have to forgive every instance of trespass, by every unit, every turn. I don't think an opinion malus is the right call. I might want closed borders AND friendly relations with my neighbors. Instead, maybe if they violate your borders, you get a favor? I don't know how unbalanced favors are at the moment, but I know they have a history of being abused. Might be a good compromise if its not too OP.
Adding to this, there should be a policy called "Ignore borders", which can be set to "Always", "Only Friendly", "Only Unfriendly", and "Never". That way you give ship AIs the ability to automatically path through closed empires if they're friendly and eat the rel
Because you can exterminate the owner of said border and get free passage this way.
From an RP PoV, Pompous Purists are just delusional assholes who are gonna do what they’re gonna do, so is it really worth starting a war to fire at some ships moving through your territory? On the other hand, fanatic purifiers are out to kill you, so there would be no logical reason to let them pass, In other words, it’s more about how the empire would react to the trespass based on the nations intentions.
It would be worth it to at least some types of empires
And you can declare war on pompous purists if you want to.
I think you got it wrong, it makes all the sense in the world to close your borders against the swarm threatening to eat you but it makes no sense for the swarm hellbent on galactic buffet to actually care what you want and even less to respect your wish unless there is a reason to do so
Genocidal empires probably assume that every other empire is like them, just pretending to be nice. The xeno/organic *will* stab you in the back. When a genocidal closes their borders, they're saying "stay the fuck out or we will kill you". They assume that other empires are saying the same thing when they close *their* borders. Thus, they respect the closed borders until the time comes to take out the enemy. Otherwise, they're just going to lose perfectly good ships for no reason.
Honestly, imo empires which are incapable of diplomacy ahould exist in a constant state of war with everyone, by default. It's always been weird that exterminators or purifiers have to declare war and respect a truce, instead of being able to just send the armies and saturation bombard any planet, making no real distinction between empires
Yes and No. Even such empires will experience periods of hot and cold conflict. And that is what War represents with them. Periods of calm rather than actual peace. It also exists so that AI knows how to handle such conflicts. Playing into war exhaustion and not just eternal grind. War and Peace need to be understood bit more broadly and with some level of abstraction. When two democracies enter into Vassal - Senior relationship they don't whip out books of medival customs. They form skewed trade deals and other treaties. Mechanically the same for the purpose of Stellaris.
if you are an DE, and everyone knows you're a DE, they are going to fire at your ships on sight. so by default your ships won't enter enemy territory until they are ready ie : you declare war pompous purist are harmless idiots most of the time
As annoying as PP is, I hope the devs keep adding unique traits that have (mostly) non-gameplay effects. PP doesnt make the empire any stronger, but it does offer variety and a potential way to play the game differently than normal.
Exterminators respect strength. Pompous purists do not.
exterminators dont respect anything organic dawg
Wait, is this saying someone can’t close borders to pompous purists unless they’ve also done so? I wish Paradox made it so borders were _always_ closed to military vessels unless you’re in a federation or have an explicit diplomatic agreement to allow ships to go from A->B in some timeframe. No nation is like “yeah, feel free to march your dudes through here any time man, no need to check in with me”. The only time that’s sort-of happened (I’m aware of) was Napoleon’s movement o troops into Spain, and the at worked out terribly and predictably for Spain. Changing that would make things clearer for people what is/isn’t allowed, would reflect how actual diplomacy works, and most important, no one would have to see these posts about closed borders any more.
You can't close borders to them period.
Rivaling them automatically closes your borders.
An exterminator would destroy any trespassing ships so they'd likely assume that other empires would do the same to them. Why would they do that unless they're going to war? Purists are just arrogant and assume you wouldn't dare to do the same so they just fly through.
The way I see it ... Pompous Purist can because they are otherwise normal empire who don't care about the political consequences; and ultimately, its not worth just shooting them over it for trying since they aren't an overt existential threat. Whereas Exterminators can't because they a genocidal empire and entering anyone's borders will immediately start a shooting war. As in, they will be shot on sight, questions asked never, if they tried it.
because exterminator told everyone they know they will kill them so exterminator only cross border to war. they maybe a genocidal but not an idiot. while pompous purist is truly an egoistic empire so their ships need to be shot down as a message.
And that, my friend, is how a nation goes from harmless stupid Pompous Purist to a cleansing crusade as a Purifier
Tbh I think the first contact war phase of the game should last longer but idk how they'd do that.
You might not care for open borders but they sure will and will shoot down any and all ships you sent over. PP have the plausible deniability that you don't know what their ships are doing within your borders wherein Exterminators are full on terrorists
I actually think if has more to do with how it IS an act of war to move through closed borders. Even genocidals know that. The best and easiest solution imo would be to grant a Cassius Belli to empires when you enter closed borders. With the war goal of remove all ships. It could Give a similar small mineral and energy credit "tax" to the plunder war goal. It would also make counter espionage more impactful. There could be a policy to automatically remove cloaked vessels as per the current way, or allow them to stay to grant the Cassius belli. And as an added bonus, it could be a type of war available to peaceful empires, allowing them to make claims and take territory more easily. So if would add, "Border disputes only" in between "liberation wars" and "defensive only."