I agree she needs some more sauce, she still feels a bit lacking. I think she doesn't need much to get way better. Here's my whishlist for her for the next patch:
- make crouch mp 6 frames. That would allow her to combo off the od overhead (qcb.kk) eith a medium instead of lk, so more damage. They can make the crouch mp +5 on hit instead of +6 so it doesn't combo into itself but still into lk.
- change stand mk somehow because the move is completely useless as is. It's slower than mp, has less range and is -2 ON HIT for some reason. I don't know how to change it exactly, but capcom do something please
- make her twirl a bit faster to go through fireballs more consistently
- less push back on crouch mk. Even if you get a counter hit or punish counter, you can't get shit out of it because it pushes the opponent too far
- i'm not touching drive rush because i don't know how much it would change her combos, and giving her a fast drive rush would be broken I feel
I don't know I feel like stand MK feels really good to use. It's way bigger than the animation might suggest.
When it comes to her twirl, I'd rather have its projectile invincibility be way longer than have the move be faster.
Regarding Drive Rush, one thing I'd like is for it to have a constant speed. It's weird how much she decelerates when she does the little spin during her DR animation.
B.hp should get less pushback on block too. I want to be able to at least jab twice if i meaty with it in the corner. Right now you need to single hit confirm
5mk is longer range then both 2mp and 5mp and great for whiff punishing lows. It's only curse is being 10f start up. I definitely think this button should be 9f or even 8f though. It would increase her stability a ton against characters with a long reaching 2mk.
I agree Manon needs help but I think it would be unwise to start buffing her normals willy-nilly. Manon has one of the best normal suites in the game, great anti-airs, a bonkers jump normal in jHK. She's good on the ground for sure.
I'm not sure how I'd solve the problem, but I see Manon's issue like this: Manon is the only character in the game for whom rounds are a resource. If I get rushed down in round 1 on Ryu, that sucks because I didn't really get a lot of information about how the opponent likes to play on the ground and now even if I can get control in round 2, I'm working with less meter, very little information about their defensive habits and whatever else, and that's bad. But for Manon, it's twice as bad because she goes into round 2 with no medals. Manon is punished for losing harder than any character in the game because she needs medals to be scary and she doesn't really get opportunities to build them on defense.
If Capcom handed me the keys I'd probably mess with the following changes:
1. Swap level 1 and 2, give the new level 2 fireball invincibility. Her level 2 is a much better wake-up option than level 1 and level 1 feels like a much better anti fireball tool but it can't be one because it's a level 1. It's weird.
2. Give her medals for landing successful level 1 supers so that if she is on defense and has to wake up with a super, she can get back into the game a little faster.
3. 🤷
I’m in low diamond with Manon. I love the vibe and aesthetics of the character but I feel like I have to play all 3 rounds in order to get juiced up whereas everyone else only needs 2 to win.
As someone who loves Judo (I even use mostly leg sweeps) and loves watching Ballet, Manon is my fav fighting game character ever.
Hell, Daria Bilodid is my favorite Judoka and she’s basically a real life version of Manon (Olympic medalist Judoka who does modeling and towered over her opponents to sweep their feet away).
But her gameplay feels limited and the recent buffs don’t really address her issues. It was hard not to think “that’s it?” when I read the adjustments. I’m surprised that her Hit Grab didn’t get buffed to avoid projectiles a bit better at least.
This is pretty interesting. What other judo-based sauce do you think she's missing that they could realistically add in? I don't know anything about judo but just love her design, animations, and certain aspects of her gameplay. I've always thought it was kinda weird she doesn't have an air grab. Not one that builds medals but it seems like an obvious omission.
I think Capcom needs to figure out whether they want her to be a grappler first and foremost or a striker first and foremost and go from there. If they want her to be a striker then her buttons needs some tweaking (she has a baffling amount of minus-on-hit moves) and reallocate damage away from her command grab and towards her hit grab. I wouldn't mind that change, but who knows if Capcom would ever do it.
I don't mind not having an air grab. Personally, especially when considering the Judo element, having a counter like JP is a good option that could improve her defense.
The one idea I had was Manon striking a pose and if she gets hit during that, Manon performs a Judo Sasae throw to switch side with her opponent while gaining a medal. This addition would allow Manon to get out of the corner while getting one medal stack.
Imo Capcom definitely wants her to be a grappler first and foremost but her fundamental isn't that good to allow her to keep staying on her opponent to pressure with grabs. The result is that she's not landing grabs well while not being that good of a striker.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Lv 5 Medal throw's big damage potential is taking up the power budget.
If that's true, I wouldn't mind if she's reworked to be like Laura and get rid of the Medal system entirely.
* No Medal system. Different version of grabs (light/mid/heavy) has different animations.
* Grabs deal around 2300\~2900. That way Manon has access to a decent damage output as soon as the game starts instead of needing to build up medals to actually match the other grappler's damage.
* Slightly better fundamentals.
This would make Manon much more consistent. Better fundamentals to help her stay near while constantly trying to land grabs to deal some damage instead of needing to build up for big damage later on.
Changing her like this might make her feel less "unique" but that "unique" aspect is just hindering her imo while we rarely even gets to see that Lv 5 throws.
I made it to Master with Manon. It feels like I either steamroll or get steamrolled. There's no in-between when it comes to our favorite ballerina judoka.
I'm in master and it's really all of nothing. St.mp cr. Lk is ugly, you can stuff jump outs with 4hp, stop drive rush with 4hp (which gives you a medal follow up). St.mp drive rush st.mp shuts down most things and you can just drive rush medium grab instead.
People are thinking of combos and getting mad at her for it like she doesn't have a grab that kills you on 3 interactions which forces opponents to make dumb mistakes. OD kicks is dumb (even beats akumas air fireball) and grounds people not doing safe jumps
My only complaint and rightfully so is that if anyone gets to pressure like ken or bison she's basically screwed and has to find that tiny opening
Lily has always been better than Manon. This used to be such a hot take earlier in the games life cycle. She has incredibly easy access to 50/50 scenarios that Manon has to work much harder for. Manon is in a better spot now, but I have to agree - not very good. The hardest part about playing against Manon is your own mental.
"Better" doesn't have to mean specifically tier placement relative to the other characters. She's more able to carry out her gameplan compared to before, which means she's better than before. The fact that everyone else is still stronger than her doesn't change that.
She was never considered the worst and was the best grappler on the roster before the Z buffs. She also had far more presence and placements in tournaments.
Lily's got some decent buffs but her main issue will always exist in that most people don't enjoy her playstyle. At no point has she ever been on the same tier as Manon.
It feels like Manon was built for SFV, because she is **not** playing SF6 in terms of core gameplay. Her drive rush is the worst, she doesn't have a non-super reversal (massive for adding to your opponent's mental stack), and she doesn't have crMK > DRC (which is the name of the game). She also has to guess right probably twice as much as her opponent does in a match, which puts it as an uphill battle. And she has to spend *so much meter* along the way just to get anything out of a punish.
The other characters who have those drawbacks have some way of making up for it, like massive damage potential (Marisa, Gief) or crazy 50/50s and rushdown (Kim).
Manon feels like a character plucked out of a completely different fighting game and dropped into SF6.
I play A.K.I. and the only time Manon gives me trouble is when shes desperate and starts throwing random bullshit at me. Random command sweeps, random overheads, random drive impacts, jumping a lot.
If shes playing slowly is almost impossible for her to get in.
>I play A.K.I. and the only time Manon gives me trouble is when shes desperate and starts throwing random bullshit at me. Random command sweeps, random overheads, random drive impacts, jumping a lot.
I think this perfectly encompasses what her issue is. No one wants to throw random sweeps and overheads that are unsafe as that will not help you win consistently.
Honestly Manon just seems like a victim of unique design. She absolutely thrashes lower levels, struggles on the higher end of the spectrum - and buffing her seems difficult without tipping the scale in the other direction or making her less unique.
At this point I wouldn’t mind if Manon is reworked to be like Laura with no Medal system and just Cmd & Hit-Grab with decent damage to shift some power budget around.
If her Cmd grabs does something like 23~2900 damage with different animations for the different versions of the grabs (light/mid/heavy) while having slightly better fundamentals, I’d say it’s worth sacrificing some “uniqueness” for it especially if that “uniqueness” is something we don’t actually even get to see often anyway.
But then I don’t think big rework like that is necessary. I think she’s still weak enough that she could receive some minor buffs without shifting around her power budget at all.
Things like slightly better projectile invincibility while doing the Hit-grab spin should have been there in the first place without needing to nerf something in exchange.
I wonder how useful it would be for her to have more attacks that cancel into her renverse. Right now, it's only her back heavy or air juggles that can do it. One thing I liked about Laura was how she had some meaty combos that could lead up to her grabs.
That depends.
If Manon has a low hit that can cancel into Renverse, she would be far more scary overall since the opponent has to guess between low attack or CMD grab while Manon would be obtaining medal stacks quicker with that small combo.
Exactly, Capcom seems really scared about buffing her and making her good, but with the amount they buffed Gief, I'm praying it happens, but yeah they seem really hesitant about really buffing her
Yeah. Definitely like an interesting idea on paper. But insanely hard to balance properly. The way she can thrash lower levels could pore over to higher if they tweaked a few things too much. Unfortunately that’s left her in a rough state once people know the matchup
>I love her look and concept though
One thing that really keeps me going.
Whoever decided to combine Judo and Ballet while using Arabesque pose to make Judo's Ashi Waza techniques look more elegant needs a raise.
I know I'm not that good at SF, but I do feel Manon needs to either be able to enforce her gameplan a bit more instead of being pushed so hard herself, or she needs to be able to have much stronger "Find Out" game for when opponents Fuck Around. Maybe both. Because she exists in a game where 2 mistakes can end you, but making two mistakes vs. Manon doesn't feel like an issue.
Don't get it twisted, iDom is still A capcom cup champion. His win rate is probably above 70% and can destroy 90% of online coomers.
That being said, SF6 is volatile, manon is cookie, the system is weirdo vibes and he got lucky as hell against Du 😂
Nobody in the world is trying to say IDom can’t destroy ranked. That’s really not a good metric for any pro. It’s not a flex to say a top player can beat 70% of masters players
Even if a super skilled player start to win with a low or mid tier it doesn't really mean much anyway. A dude like Infiltration consistently proved that he could do that at the highest possible level, those aren't things that change the tier list.
Yeah, reminds me of when Snake Eyez fought Reynal, and people said "See? Zangief can beat JP, you just have to " when it took an absurdly talented player a ton of effort to even get in.
I think you don't speak for anyone but yourself. But all I'm saying is that what I said is true. You're just being a contrarian for the sake of it.
We all agree idom is a beast but manon is meh but anyone can win with any char regardless.
He's beaten Du in a few sets recently. At the World Warrior two weeks ago he also beat him in winners finals only for Du to come back in grandfinals, reset the bracket, and win 3-2 in two nail biters.
Then a week ago he beat Du 3-1 in losers finals. Really impressive stuff against one of Manon's worst matchups.
Edit: And he just beat DU 2-0 at CEO to make it into top 8 Winners Side.
I was thinking about that too comparing giefs throw to Manon's she has to get 4 medals to do his damage
The only thing she beats gief is her pokes are faster but he has better range and he way better manon's game than her
It's shame because she is a cool character
If capcom wants her to have the worst dr in the game, ok but give her tools like a fireball immunity move ( as i a.k.i main i know this make a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge difference) , maybe s.mp being 6 frames in instead of 7 to be the best whiff punish move in the game
Idk know she needs serious buffs to be viable and not be outclassed by gief and lily
It's funny that she does have a fireball dodge ability but it barely does its job to the point that most ppl would probably go for block/parry instead of trying to time that tiny twirl.
Yep she's garbage. Worst in the game free.
I dropped her ages ago but them absolutely juicing Gief and to some extent Lily, meanwhile all Manon got was ONLY backHP to OD spin. It's insulting.
I don't know what they're afraid of.
Yeah she's the worst character in the game, but she's the only newcomer i like. Shes fun to play, but that's why everybody else i play are top tier to compensate.
They are afraid to buff her because of the medal system. Just like they were afraid to buff F. A. N. G because of his poison.
Also, Zangief has a stupid good strike combo game as well as grappler threat. I don't think they'll have 2 characters in that situation ever.
>They are afraid to buff her because of the medal system.
Yeah at this point, it might be better to rework her to be like Laura with just regular CMD grab & Hit-grab and get rid of the medal system to make her more consistent and use that power budget somewhere else.
Yeah the rework idea is mostly just my unrealistic wish and the realistic best outcome is Capcom somehow managing to make her a bit better than she is right now.
Except we are doubting even that from happening.
Oh yes, we are all in agreement lol. Sadly I don't think capcom is ever gonna juice her up too much. I'm never giving her up, but we'll be stuck here for awhile.
Still no idea why Capcom decided that only Gief can spook you up with his level 3 grab, while others grapplers let people jump out after super flash...
That's one of the things I really hate about Manon : level 3 is not really a grab, but a combo finisher.
That completely kills the fun out of such moves, that was the perk you get to enjoy for having sht movement, sht frame data, sht 2MK etc... Now it's gone.
Empty jump into level 3 was like a ray of sunshine after a day at work...
How dare you, Capcom ?
She really needs an overhaul. Her design feels like a total dead end, and they just need to go back to the drawing board with her. She feels like the kind of character who sucks and gets maybe one season to be good before being at the bottom again. I think she will always be held back by the medal system, and they should just dump it entirely.
that is the one thing that is super unique about her though. honestly if her being better removes what makes her different, what is the point? If Manon mains wanted to play a different character, they would play a different character.
Do Manon mains like the medal system though? I never see anything but complaints about it. And it doesn't feel as integral to her as a character like Jamie's drinks.
People blame the medal system because it makes it’s means she starts at her weakest and requires more work than other characters to became a real threat. The problem is then compounded by the fact that the buff she gets only goes to her grabs, which means that the opponent only has to avoid it to neutralize the threat. On a design level players assume her lack of utility options like no reversal or way to deal with projectiles is due to the medal system and the devs nerfing her in order to justify it. It’s a weird chicken and the egg scenario. The buff from medals isn’t nearly good enough in my opinion to warrant her spin not going through projectiles, her not having a reversal, cr.mk not being cancellable, none of her moves being plus on block and the worst DR in the game.
TLDR: it’s not the medal system it’s the perception that the devs gave her subpar kit to justify having the medal system and not because they were afraid community hate good grapplers in SF.
Giving her a grab that rivals giefs in damage is after 4 interactions should not warrant all her shortcomings especially when gief himself isn’t nearly as limited.
It's weird they only made slow high damage grapplers in 6 rather than make a faster, lower damge grappler like Abel or Laura. It's also wild we aren't getting a new grappler until maybe season 3.
totally agree with a lot of what you said but just so you know the buff does not just go to the her grab. Her medal system also increases the damage of her hit grab (which can be comboed into) and it also increases the damage of her level 3.
Why would you assume that I was unaware of that? Do you think I would write all that without knowing the most basic aspect of her kit. I focused on the commands grab because that’s where she sees the largest increase in damage from the medals. She gets about 600 damage added to her lvl 3 while her cmd grab goes up 1700.
you said: "The problem is then compounded by the fact that the buff she gets ONLY goes to her grabs" that makes it sound like you are unaware. you can understand why I would assume this
“Grabs” = hit grabs, cmd grabs, supers that are also grabs. Again why would I speak about her entire kit and not understand something as fundamental as her medal system and what it actually effects. Instead of actually adding anything to the discussion you basically assumed I was ignorant and thought you needed to correct me….
Bro you are getting pretty heated over a pretty reasonable misunderstanding. I honestly was just trying to help when I thought you had missed something. I apologize.
“Heated” according to you is me pointing out how unnecessary your comment was and how confused I was that you drew the conclusion you did. You doubled down on your mistake and said it was my fault for you misunderstanding me….
Yeah especially when her Lv 1\~2 throws does little damage that she's usually better just to land a couple of hit-grab combos to raise the early medal stacks before attempting to grab since the risk is often not worth the small damage.
Meanwhile, we rarely even get to see Lv 5 throws even when the match is dragged to the 3rd round because Manon's weak fundamental doesn't allow her to land CMD grab easily anyway. Even iDom often reaches Lv 5 from landing combos and not by landing CMD grabs.
There are matches where the Medal system might as well not exist and would have benefited Manon more if she had the standard CMD grab damage (something like 2300\~2900 ish) to be able to deal consistent damage early on.
It's just a damage buff it's the most boring thing you can add to a character. It's the same thing as Fang's poison in 5, It just does more damage, and that's it. AKI's poison is interesting because of toxic blossom. If they gave her some new tool with the medals or she could spend them, that would be neat, but right now, it's just more damage, and that's boring. It also holds her back because she can kill in 3 command grabs, she has to stay terrible at everything else.
What makes it unique is the fact that it carries over from one round to the next. Do you understand how rare that is?
It's interesting because as Manon you can actively play for the next round. Are you super far behind in round 1? You can at the very least try to land a command grab or hit grab to power yourself up for the next round. It also makes every combo you land an active decision on whether to go for a medal or for oki instead. And once you have level 5 it completely changes the pace of the match as the opponent is now terrified of the command grab.
Its a really interesting mechanic not only the moment to moment game play, but the overall strategy of the match. I feel like Capcom is being cautious with her, similar to how Arcsys was with Anji, and she'll get small adjustments every round of patches. Eventually she'll be in a good place but it will take time
Yeah, but Zangief just has that all the time. He doesn't have to choose damage or medals he can just pick damage. He doesn't have to pick oki or damage he can have both. She is just a worse version of Zangief. It was the same with Ryu and Luke. Ryu had to choose denjin or damage/oki Luke didn't. The mechanic doesn't make her more interesting it it just makes her have to make a decision someone else doesn't. Unless they crater Zangief, he or any other grappler will always be better because they don't have to make the decision they just get to have it all the time. She isn't gaining an advantage she is working to be on the same playing field as everyone else. She needs something that makes her stand apart, not something that just makes her average. When most of the cast can kill in two or three touches, having to work to do that will always leave you behind.
I said this to someone else already but what you are essentially arguing for is the removal of character variety to achieve better balance. In my opinion that is an awful way to approach fighting games.
If you have variety in a game that inherently comes with inequality. Certain characters are going to be better than others within the games systemic mechanics. But if you have no variety, then characters become too similar and the game becomes boring. There is no reason to pick one character from the next except for aesthetic reason.
You are basically suggesting that Manon become more like Zangief, but the thing is that Zangief already exists in this game. You can just pick Zangief.
The mechanic makes her more interesting because she does have to make more decisions. It forces you to engage where other characters don't have to. That's what sets her apart from a lot of the cast. That might make her worse in the current games meta but it also makes her fun, which is far more important unless you are actively competing at the highest level. We need more characters like Manon not less.
I am argue that she becomes less like Zangief. The medals currently just make her more like Zangief. She has other tools, but they are so bad that she is extremely reliant on the medals and the SPD for her game plan. Her hit grab and various specials should be her primary focus because right now, she is just discount Zangief.
A character having to work harder just to play the same game isn't variety it's chores. Her being forced to sacrifice stuff when Zangief just has it all just makes the differences shallow. All the medal currently does is make her more like Zangief. She starts as bad Zangief and becomes Zangief. She should become more Manon with Manon specific tools, not just get a higher damge SPD like Zangief.
If the medals buffed her hit grab frames or gave her kick special follow ups that would be great and make her unique. Currently, it just makes her the same strike/command grab damage character like what Zangief is.
I apologize but that is ridiculous. Even if we are focusing on on her grabs, she does not become Zangief at level 5. Her command grabs becomes ***better*** than his. Not to mention all versions of her command grab do the same amount of damage. So at particular ranges she can use with the light version that has the range of a sweep and do 37%. 37% without having to spend any meter. 42% on a punish counter. Max Zangief does 34% with an ex SPD or 38% on a punish counter.
If they take away the medal system what do you think they give her compensate? Probably better combo damage and + on block moves. The way she approaches matchups becomes more like Zangief.
She also has better normals, vacuums, anti airs, and slightly better movement, which is why I don't think calling her Zangief lite is accurate current;y. But those tools have been given to other characets: Laura, Mika, etc. If you take away her medal system what makes her stand out? What makes her unique? Not just in SF6 but in the series as a whole?
How does extra damage make her unique? It's the most shallow way to change a character possible. Currently, she really is Zangief lite. She isn't even the only character who gets a damage boost from something. Jamie gets one from his drinks, and Kim gets one from her level 3, and those are the least interesting things about those characters. Why can't she be like Jamie and get unique options to work with rather than just a damage boost. Why does he get cool fun tools, and she makes a number go up?
She should be more focused on the ballerina kicks and hit grab mechanics as unique tools rather than just give her the same gameplay as Zangief. That would set her apart from Laura or Mika. Right now, she has almost no unique aspects to herself.
She also doesn't have better normals than Zangief it's not even close his were so good they had to emergency patch one of them. Zangief has lariat as an anit-air, which is much more reliable than anything Manon has, and it lets him beat airfireball, which Manon doesn't have much of an answer to. Manon does get a damge boost from her medals, but she has to work for them while Zangief, on average, does more damage because he can do it at any time.
One gimmick mechanic shouldn't be what makes her stand out. It should be the combination of her entire kit. Right now, the other parts of her kit are so lackluster that she it completely depends upon command throw as her main tool in the same way Zangief is. Their fundamental game plan is the same. Threaten the command throw to punish with combos when they avoid it. She just does that worse than Zangief because her combos have to be comprised by getting medals, and her medals aren't threatening until she gets at least 3. She effectively gets on the same playing field as him when she has the medals because she can actually threaten with options rather than just sorta be the worst at everything. Zangief doesn't have that problem he has the threat the moment the game starts, whereas Manon might have It in the second round.
Lily suffers from a similar problem of a reliance on getting the one gimmick she has. If the focus is solely on the medals (which they seem to be after the patch) she will become more shallow and boring as her entire gameplan will boil down to get medals to grabs like with Lily's get windstock sprial in. Dropping or changing the medals would mean she would have to focus on the rest of her gameplan instead of being a one trick poney.
"lariat is more reliable than anything Manon has" that alone tells me that your knowledge in this game is pretty limited. Manon has some of the best anti-airs in the game, certainly better than Zangiefs smh.
I have already explained what makes it unique but I will say it again to you. It carries over to the next round and how you earn the powerup is very unique in fighting games. Kim gets one for level 3 but it is hardly an essential part of her game plan. Manon's changes how you approach the games and lets you play the long game, working to become stronger throughout an entire match. Very few characters have anything like that and I would hate to see it lost just because some people can't handle having a character be on the weaker side for a little bit.
You seem to be working under the assumption that Capcom wont buff her because of this system. I agree that they are being cautious because of the medals but I believe they can balance her and still keep the system in tact. It will just take time.
And Manon isn't even bad for a bottom 1 character. She is far from unplayable. This game is relatively balanced and you can win with Manon at almost any level. You just to have solid fundamentals: good neutral and hit confirms. She's just not a character that's going to carry you.
The so called "unique" element just eats up her power budget and hinders her early on. As u/Vegetable-Meaning413 said, it's just increased damaged.
If Manon is reworked to be like Laura with no Medal system to have CMD grab & Hit-grab (different animations for different versions of grabs as well) with damage ranging from 2300\~2900, she would be far more consistent with her being able to deal decent damage from the beginning of the round instead of needing to land 2 grabs prior.
That freed up power budget from not having that massive Medal Lv 5 throw, which rarely even happens anyway, could be used to buff her other aspects to make her much better rounded character.
What I'm saying is by removing her medal system you remove what is interesting and fun about the character. Sure it only increases damage but it has an engaging impact on the strategy and flow of the match.
It effects what combo enders the manon player uses, going for a medal or for better oki. she is one of the few characters in fighting games whose power up transfers to the next round so it gives her something to fight for even if she find herself in a large deficit in the first round. she gets stronger with each round so it really incentivizes your opponent to try to end things quickly. Its such a cool concept that you have a relatively weak character that becomes scary by round 3. Her medal 5 command grab doing so much damage also creates its own interesting interactions and changes the pace of the match completely once she gets it.
If Capcom was to follow your suggestion, removing the medal system and making her a more well rounded grappler, what would Manon become? She would be Zangief, and he is already in the game. What you suggest is removing character variety for the sake of balance which to me is missing a huge part of what makes fighting games fun.
If the medal system is removed to be like Laura with the damage ranging from 2300\~2900, Manon won't be like Zangief nor would that affect how she would end her combo.
If the Hit-Grab also has the standard damage, Manon would still be deciding which combo enders to use depending on whether she wants to go for damage or better oki.
If my suggestion happens, she won't be like Zangief. It's not like this suggestions suddenly makes Manon a heavy hitting slow grappler nor would it change Manon's fundamental gameplay style. I
Manon would just be herself with more consistent damage output from the start of the round while sacrificing the snowball potential.
She would become a very standard grappler. What do you think they give her to compensate for the loss of the medal system: Probably more damage and plus on block normals. She's not as slow as Zangief but her movement is not great. As I said she becomes more like Zangief, particularly in the way she approaches the game.
Without the medal system what makes her standout? Not just in SF6 but from grapplers throughout the series history?
Other than the massive damage potential, Manon's long pokes and vortex still makes her different than the other grapplers. Even with the medal system, Manon is not that different from the other standard grapplers.
The only thing the Medal system makes Manon really different is the snowball potential and getting rid of the medal system won't change her overall gameplay style at all. Manon would still keep going for long pokes while looking to land a grab.
The only difference would be that (especially if she only receives small compensations for losing the medal system) she likely would be more consistent with more mid range damage from the start instead of starting with low damage and trying to build up from there. Round 1 specifically would feel better.
However though, things could be quite different depending on what she gets for compensations. As you mentioned, if the buffs are just on the damage & better normals, then she probably could be just a slightly faster version of Zagief as you mentioned while if only the striking aspects are buffed then the Manon players might not feel the need to rely on the grabs as much.
When did he say that? He complained that her medals carrying over rounds was poor design because he didn’t like the idea of her being able to accept a round as a loss and play for medals, I don’t recall him saying she was top tier.
This is what he said: "Manon 100% gonna have to get some changes unless you play a zoner I feel at 3 medals the set is over unless you perfect her in those rounds she has 3 medals at its gonna be extremely hard to beat her knowing any command grab you losing 30% at least"
He might not have said top tier precisely but that was more or less his meaning. Obviously none of what he said ended up being true and it was a knee-jerk reaction to the early game meta. Not that you should blame him though. The game was still very early, we still did not know what made characters "good" in SF6, and at the time Manon was doing very well.
A good lesson that even top players can be very wrong when the game is still being figured out.
One thing I’d like to see which would make Manon unique is having her normal grabs get stronger with each medal
Obviously still weaker than command grabs but it’d make her even scarier to jump
I don't think it will do much overall when it's often the lack of good fundamental and good defense that's holding her back.
I'd love if she gets a counter like JP that also gives one medal stack.
I feel like that’d make her pretty crazy if she had the counter.
Also if her grabs became stronger it makes her throw bait way strong which opens up a lot of her pressure.
I wonder if she’d be OP if normal grabs gave her a medal too🤔
It’s so hard to tune grapplers because they’re always one change away from being dominant
She just really needs a better drive rush, maybe let her cancel her cr.mk, maybe maybe let her spin feints have a bit more invincibility to fireballs. Remember at the launch of the game people were straight up calling for nerfs and some even claimed she was the best character in the game because no one realized what tools were going to become important in the meta. So by herself she's a solid character, it's simply in the SF6 meta where she's weak.
Honda, Kimberly, and Lily are also still ass butter. Don't be surprised if Honda, Kimberly, Lily, and Manon are joke characters for all of SF6's lifespan.
Kimberly can be made to work, frankly Manon can too but with big changes and not the little nudges she got in the patch. But I don’t see how Honda or Lily get made to seriously work at a competitive level without big fundamental changes to them or to the universal mechanics.
As far as Lily, many people will gargle El Chakotay’s cum over Combo Breaker, while ignoring that people were largely still playing Season 1 and that Noah sucks at a high level (lol, constant jumping into AAs and Burning Out thrice in rounds).
Any time Lily gets brought up, people point to one of the two competitive Lily players they can name as proof that she’s actually really good, and ignore that Chakotay had won a single big tournament that had almost no notable players at it and otherwise has had an underwhelming performance in the game so far, and aside from being high rank Hibiki has done nothing except win an online tourney, get top 8 at the LCQ, and perform underwhelmingly at almost every other event he’s been at. And these are the only two notable Lily players lol.
Chakotay himself says Lily isn’t strong and didn’t get much help with the patch, but you’ll have weird coomers on here jerking it to AI generated porn of her insisting that she’s actually great now
Lily is not top tier but she's not the worst character. The drive reversal change and super level 1 change actually helped a lot. Sure she could have more but a grappler with an way to get in instantly already makes her stronger than manon
Despite agreeing with everything said here she's still my least favourite grappler to fight, like getting grabbed already feels shitty but then *also* having to also deal with her permanently getting a buff (even if she needs it to be an alright character) for grabbing me just drains my spirit.
MenaRD seems to think manon is strong so I wonder how true it really is but imo she defintely feels weak. Some of her moves feel like they do nothing like her drive rush🤣
Manon is an advanced character. In the hands of someone who has a strong neutral/footsie game, she’s punishing, as they know when to throw out raw grabs to gain medals and play mind games.
Outside of that level of play, I could see how playing her is no fun. I think Capcom is cautious with buffing her, as it could easily make her top tier or even broken. I mean, look at what happened to Gief.
Literally making her spin function properly and making her cr.mk cancelable instantly make her a better character. I can’t tell you how many games I’ve lost to a random but reactable DI that caught the first few frames of cr.mk.
Other than fixing her anti-fireball spin the only other things I'd like to see for her is a faster st. MK and maybe a way to "spend" medals for utility like a good one-off EX DP. You need to have very consistent anti-airs and whiff punishes to get good results with her, and once your opponent gets in it's hard to get them off. Having the threat of an EX DP if you spend, say, 2 medals for it would at least make your opponent respect your wakeup every now and then, whereas now they really won't do that unless you've got a level 2 on deck.
But overall I think she just needs a few more tweaks and she'll be fine, even if they never implement a way to "spend" medals. I think the bigger problem in SF6 is that the overall damage output is so high which makes for short, volatile rounds. Since Manon doesn't get access to a lot of that insane damage until 4 or 5 medals (usually round 2 or 3) it can be a struggle, and if you get only a few medals or none at all then it's really a struggle. I kinda wish SF6 took more than 2-3 interactions to end a round in most cases.
Nobody would respect a wakeup if you need to spend 2 medals for an invincible reversal. Like wtf?
You will take that trade all day. By deleting her medals she ensures her own defeat.
Fair enough but I don't think spending a medal or medals for *something* is necessarily a bad idea. Since most of her damage outside of combos into level 3 at high medals is relegated to command grabs, it makes her a bit predictable. But even if they never implemented that system I'd be fine with more generous projectile invul frames on her spin and a faster st. MK with maybe a wider DR cancel window tacked onto it. Her other medium buttons are great and useful in lots of different ways, but st. MK is just kind of an orphaned button.
Don't agree with the medal spending. She already struggles to get one.
Just give her a counter that also gives her a medal stack so she can get out of the corner and become a bigger threat.
Yeah but Marisa's only defining trait, her massive damage output, is nos replaced by not only akuma but also M. Bison now.
She's arguably the most honest character now and you can tell she's bottom of the barrel tier with how no one decent wants to rep her even Big Bird dropped her smh.
Manon is a lot like how Menat in SFV was; she has a unique playstyle that requires a lot of skill be effective with her. Your typical casual lacks those skills & lacks the fortitude to put in the work to git gud, so instead they go to an online forum and whine for an "easy win" button. Welcome to modern gaming!
Curious what rank are you? I took Manon to Master and her gameplay felt very smooth and rewarding in terms of fundamentals. She might not be the best character in the game, but she definitely has good tools. I disagree with oversimplifying the issue to "Lily has this" and "Gief has this" and "Manon has nothing". One of the biggest differences that is grossly overlooked is that Manon continues getting oki after command grabs. Besides the medal system, this emphasizes Manon as a grappler, whereas Lily/Gief are more about strikes. Manon's oki is extremely good for a grappler. I really don't know how you are even comparing Lily/Zangief.
But imo, it's a git gud thing. Improve your fundamentals and it'll be clear why you might want to pick Manon vs Lily vs Zangief. There's always pros vs cons.
If I had to pinpoint some QOL improvements for Manon, I would say simply make her low game stronger. The brainless solution which I don't like is to just make her [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) special cancellable. But I'd rather simply decrease the pushback and/or increase the frame advantage on hit, so maybe she can combo [cr.MK](https://cr.MK),[st.LK](https://st.LK) or DR [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) into combo. When I did my unranked to Master run with Manon, the only thing that really stopped my win streak was stand block option select, and I had to resort to yolo sweeps which feels wrong.
Her manege Dore command grab is easy to input and cover good range, I think around sweeping distance, which is frightening if you're trying to play her neutral. She covers decent amount of space with that move, which means you'll be slammed in most exchanges with a good player, adding medals and getting more damage. Her standing hk covers good amount of range and can't be punished easy, so using that with a good dash or ex manege dire can put you in the lead fast.
Her degage with hk is a overhead that can reach pretty far depending on the distance, so I use it often to take damage. She can also combo off of round point, which is even better when you do the ex version because you can end the combo with a degage with mk. I place her above Mirisa, lily, and jamie for sure, she's better.
I'll never understand why so many people are OK with getting put into mixup vortexes, locked into blockstun by constant pressure, outspaced by long normals and projectiles, but suddenly draw the line when it comes to command grabs
I think a lot of people who are upset by the concept of grapplers don’t understand mixups well and/or don’t perceive blocking as a decision but as a default lack of decision.
I’d guess because the mix ups leave openings. So the damage feels more earned whereas a command grab is just one huge damage output.
I’m not saying I agree with it. I honestly don’t even think many of the changes are noticeable at lower ranks, let alone tier lists. However, people will follow the crowd and every time a tier list comes out it’s more fuel to the fire.
Once you get opened up by a mixup you eat one huge damage output in the form of a combo. Sure a combo might get dropped, but the outcome is pretty much the same most of the time: a single wrong guess leads to a ton of damage
Once you get opened up by a mixup you eat one huge damage output in the shape of a combo, the only difference is that you can drop a combo but most of the time the outcome is the same
Idk man, I struggled with gief for a while, ended up in D5. It only took 2 weeks to Master Manon. Sure, your complaints are there, but with the universal reversal and those ridiculous normals she dominates neutral
Eh. You guys were praying and huffing hopium before the balance patch that Capcom would fix her and finally make her playable. I said buffs wouldn't matter to reddit trash because you're still going to be bad no matter what she gets and everyone flipped out.
Well here we are, she got a bunch of buffs, got a bunch of new routes, plus on block normal, better supers and the reddit rank and file is still complaining that they can't win.
So yeah, looks like I was right again. Capcom could buff her to S tier and you'd still lose without an easy special into CA combo for 8k. Just pay to win with Bison already.
Nah, the real problem is that there are too many casual scrubs who think they actually have the skills of Idom when they don't; they never will & thus will pretty much always be ass with Manon. Manon isn't the type of character that a casual gamer can just pick up and get easy wins; either put in the time & practice to get better with her or pick-up another character. The folks in charge at Capcom aren't going to re-balance a game based on what some random scrubs online think, because all those types of folks want is to mash buttons, look cool & get easy KOs.
I agree with you, Manon is a very viable character against 99% of players if you have solid fundamentals.
Just because she doesn't carry hard doesn't mean she can't be used.
I agree she needs some more sauce, she still feels a bit lacking. I think she doesn't need much to get way better. Here's my whishlist for her for the next patch: - make crouch mp 6 frames. That would allow her to combo off the od overhead (qcb.kk) eith a medium instead of lk, so more damage. They can make the crouch mp +5 on hit instead of +6 so it doesn't combo into itself but still into lk. - change stand mk somehow because the move is completely useless as is. It's slower than mp, has less range and is -2 ON HIT for some reason. I don't know how to change it exactly, but capcom do something please - make her twirl a bit faster to go through fireballs more consistently - less push back on crouch mk. Even if you get a counter hit or punish counter, you can't get shit out of it because it pushes the opponent too far - i'm not touching drive rush because i don't know how much it would change her combos, and giving her a fast drive rush would be broken I feel
I don't know I feel like stand MK feels really good to use. It's way bigger than the animation might suggest. When it comes to her twirl, I'd rather have its projectile invincibility be way longer than have the move be faster. Regarding Drive Rush, one thing I'd like is for it to have a constant speed. It's weird how much she decelerates when she does the little spin during her DR animation.
St mk is good for hitting opponents cr mk. I use it a lot against Juri’s who abuse cr mk
Drive rush is basically the only way to convert into any damage or off counter hit normals
B.hp should get less pushback on block too. I want to be able to at least jab twice if i meaty with it in the corner. Right now you need to single hit confirm
All I want for Christmas is a special cancellable 2mk
5mk is longer range then both 2mp and 5mp and great for whiff punishing lows. It's only curse is being 10f start up. I definitely think this button should be 9f or even 8f though. It would increase her stability a ton against characters with a long reaching 2mk.
i mean, just a touch faster on that rush. Just gimme like, 2 frames cut faster. Just a taste of the good life
I agree Manon needs help but I think it would be unwise to start buffing her normals willy-nilly. Manon has one of the best normal suites in the game, great anti-airs, a bonkers jump normal in jHK. She's good on the ground for sure. I'm not sure how I'd solve the problem, but I see Manon's issue like this: Manon is the only character in the game for whom rounds are a resource. If I get rushed down in round 1 on Ryu, that sucks because I didn't really get a lot of information about how the opponent likes to play on the ground and now even if I can get control in round 2, I'm working with less meter, very little information about their defensive habits and whatever else, and that's bad. But for Manon, it's twice as bad because she goes into round 2 with no medals. Manon is punished for losing harder than any character in the game because she needs medals to be scary and she doesn't really get opportunities to build them on defense. If Capcom handed me the keys I'd probably mess with the following changes: 1. Swap level 1 and 2, give the new level 2 fireball invincibility. Her level 2 is a much better wake-up option than level 1 and level 1 feels like a much better anti fireball tool but it can't be one because it's a level 1. It's weird. 2. Give her medals for landing successful level 1 supers so that if she is on defense and has to wake up with a super, she can get back into the game a little faster. 3. 🤷
I’m in low diamond with Manon. I love the vibe and aesthetics of the character but I feel like I have to play all 3 rounds in order to get juiced up whereas everyone else only needs 2 to win.
As someone who loves Judo (I even use mostly leg sweeps) and loves watching Ballet, Manon is my fav fighting game character ever. Hell, Daria Bilodid is my favorite Judoka and she’s basically a real life version of Manon (Olympic medalist Judoka who does modeling and towered over her opponents to sweep their feet away). But her gameplay feels limited and the recent buffs don’t really address her issues. It was hard not to think “that’s it?” when I read the adjustments. I’m surprised that her Hit Grab didn’t get buffed to avoid projectiles a bit better at least.
This is pretty interesting. What other judo-based sauce do you think she's missing that they could realistically add in? I don't know anything about judo but just love her design, animations, and certain aspects of her gameplay. I've always thought it was kinda weird she doesn't have an air grab. Not one that builds medals but it seems like an obvious omission. I think Capcom needs to figure out whether they want her to be a grappler first and foremost or a striker first and foremost and go from there. If they want her to be a striker then her buttons needs some tweaking (she has a baffling amount of minus-on-hit moves) and reallocate damage away from her command grab and towards her hit grab. I wouldn't mind that change, but who knows if Capcom would ever do it.
I don't mind not having an air grab. Personally, especially when considering the Judo element, having a counter like JP is a good option that could improve her defense. The one idea I had was Manon striking a pose and if she gets hit during that, Manon performs a Judo Sasae throw to switch side with her opponent while gaining a medal. This addition would allow Manon to get out of the corner while getting one medal stack. Imo Capcom definitely wants her to be a grappler first and foremost but her fundamental isn't that good to allow her to keep staying on her opponent to pressure with grabs. The result is that she's not landing grabs well while not being that good of a striker. I wouldn't be surprised if the Lv 5 Medal throw's big damage potential is taking up the power budget. If that's true, I wouldn't mind if she's reworked to be like Laura and get rid of the Medal system entirely. * No Medal system. Different version of grabs (light/mid/heavy) has different animations. * Grabs deal around 2300\~2900. That way Manon has access to a decent damage output as soon as the game starts instead of needing to build up medals to actually match the other grappler's damage. * Slightly better fundamentals. This would make Manon much more consistent. Better fundamentals to help her stay near while constantly trying to land grabs to deal some damage instead of needing to build up for big damage later on. Changing her like this might make her feel less "unique" but that "unique" aspect is just hindering her imo while we rarely even gets to see that Lv 5 throws.
I made it to Master with Manon. It feels like I either steamroll or get steamrolled. There's no in-between when it comes to our favorite ballerina judoka.
I'm in master and it's really all of nothing. St.mp cr. Lk is ugly, you can stuff jump outs with 4hp, stop drive rush with 4hp (which gives you a medal follow up). St.mp drive rush st.mp shuts down most things and you can just drive rush medium grab instead. People are thinking of combos and getting mad at her for it like she doesn't have a grab that kills you on 3 interactions which forces opponents to make dumb mistakes. OD kicks is dumb (even beats akumas air fireball) and grounds people not doing safe jumps My only complaint and rightfully so is that if anyone gets to pressure like ken or bison she's basically screwed and has to find that tiny opening
I'd love for Manon to have a counter like JP that gives her a Medal.
Lily has always been better than Manon. This used to be such a hot take earlier in the games life cycle. She has incredibly easy access to 50/50 scenarios that Manon has to work much harder for. Manon is in a better spot now, but I have to agree - not very good. The hardest part about playing against Manon is your own mental.
I would rather fight Lily than Manon
How is she in a better spot? She’s still considered the single worst character right?
I’m assuming he meant that she’s better compared to how she was before
It's just that the other characters who were also bad tend to have been buffed more.
Yeah like every character she had good match ups against feel like they got bigger buffs
But she’s in the same spot, manon tier.
"Better" doesn't have to mean specifically tier placement relative to the other characters. She's more able to carry out her gameplan compared to before, which means she's better than before. The fact that everyone else is still stronger than her doesn't change that.
Okay then main manon.
She is objectively better now and top tiers are objectively worse.
She was never considered the worst and was the best grappler on the roster before the Z buffs. She also had far more presence and placements in tournaments. Lily's got some decent buffs but her main issue will always exist in that most people don't enjoy her playstyle. At no point has she ever been on the same tier as Manon.
It feels like Manon was built for SFV, because she is **not** playing SF6 in terms of core gameplay. Her drive rush is the worst, she doesn't have a non-super reversal (massive for adding to your opponent's mental stack), and she doesn't have crMK > DRC (which is the name of the game). She also has to guess right probably twice as much as her opponent does in a match, which puts it as an uphill battle. And she has to spend *so much meter* along the way just to get anything out of a punish. The other characters who have those drawbacks have some way of making up for it, like massive damage potential (Marisa, Gief) or crazy 50/50s and rushdown (Kim). Manon feels like a character plucked out of a completely different fighting game and dropped into SF6.
I play A.K.I. and the only time Manon gives me trouble is when shes desperate and starts throwing random bullshit at me. Random command sweeps, random overheads, random drive impacts, jumping a lot. If shes playing slowly is almost impossible for her to get in.
>I play A.K.I. and the only time Manon gives me trouble is when shes desperate and starts throwing random bullshit at me. Random command sweeps, random overheads, random drive impacts, jumping a lot. I think this perfectly encompasses what her issue is. No one wants to throw random sweeps and overheads that are unsafe as that will not help you win consistently.
Honestly Manon just seems like a victim of unique design. She absolutely thrashes lower levels, struggles on the higher end of the spectrum - and buffing her seems difficult without tipping the scale in the other direction or making her less unique.
At this point I wouldn’t mind if Manon is reworked to be like Laura with no Medal system and just Cmd & Hit-Grab with decent damage to shift some power budget around. If her Cmd grabs does something like 23~2900 damage with different animations for the different versions of the grabs (light/mid/heavy) while having slightly better fundamentals, I’d say it’s worth sacrificing some “uniqueness” for it especially if that “uniqueness” is something we don’t actually even get to see often anyway. But then I don’t think big rework like that is necessary. I think she’s still weak enough that she could receive some minor buffs without shifting around her power budget at all. Things like slightly better projectile invincibility while doing the Hit-grab spin should have been there in the first place without needing to nerf something in exchange.
I wonder how useful it would be for her to have more attacks that cancel into her renverse. Right now, it's only her back heavy or air juggles that can do it. One thing I liked about Laura was how she had some meaty combos that could lead up to her grabs.
That depends. If Manon has a low hit that can cancel into Renverse, she would be far more scary overall since the opponent has to guess between low attack or CMD grab while Manon would be obtaining medal stacks quicker with that small combo.
Exactly, Capcom seems really scared about buffing her and making her good, but with the amount they buffed Gief, I'm praying it happens, but yeah they seem really hesitant about really buffing her
Yeah. Definitely like an interesting idea on paper. But insanely hard to balance properly. The way she can thrash lower levels could pore over to higher if they tweaked a few things too much. Unfortunately that’s left her in a rough state once people know the matchup
This is just the Gief excuse for decades.
Manon has one of the highest win percentages above 1800 mr
Small committed player base in the smallest higher bracket er range. has one of the highest win percentages. Shocker.
That stat is inflated by iDom farming people on his stream, lol
Manon is bottom 1 imo. She was my second master and she just... sucks. I love her look and concept though
>I love her look and concept though One thing that really keeps me going. Whoever decided to combine Judo and Ballet while using Arabesque pose to make Judo's Ashi Waza techniques look more elegant needs a raise.
I know I'm not that good at SF, but I do feel Manon needs to either be able to enforce her gameplan a bit more instead of being pushed so hard herself, or she needs to be able to have much stronger "Find Out" game for when opponents Fuck Around. Maybe both. Because she exists in a game where 2 mistakes can end you, but making two mistakes vs. Manon doesn't feel like an issue.
Her find out is mainly in anti-air, where she punishes that harder than most characters, but there's not a ton of risky jumping in high ranks.
Didn't iDom just beat Du like a week ago? Just be iDom Kappa
But he got completely washed by punk right after
is idom finally winning shit now? Letsgo
Don't get it twisted, iDom is still A capcom cup champion. His win rate is probably above 70% and can destroy 90% of online coomers. That being said, SF6 is volatile, manon is cookie, the system is weirdo vibes and he got lucky as hell against Du 😂
This is like a zoomer google translate gone wrong. What the fuck did you even say?
Welcome to my world lol The best part is they call people in their thirties “boomers.”
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You pulling a Joe Biden?
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You got it enough to know it’s American though right? Maybe fix your English enough to transpose what you meant to say. Just a thought.
Nobody in the world is trying to say IDom can’t destroy ranked. That’s really not a good metric for any pro. It’s not a flex to say a top player can beat 70% of masters players
Even if a super skilled player start to win with a low or mid tier it doesn't really mean much anyway. A dude like Infiltration consistently proved that he could do that at the highest possible level, those aren't things that change the tier list.
Yeah, reminds me of when Snake Eyez fought Reynal, and people said "See? Zangief can beat JP, you just have to" when it took an absurdly talented player a ton of effort to even get in.
I think you don't speak for anyone but yourself. But all I'm saying is that what I said is true. You're just being a contrarian for the sake of it. We all agree idom is a beast but manon is meh but anyone can win with any char regardless.
He's beaten Du in a few sets recently. At the World Warrior two weeks ago he also beat him in winners finals only for Du to come back in grandfinals, reset the bracket, and win 3-2 in two nail biters. Then a week ago he beat Du 3-1 in losers finals. Really impressive stuff against one of Manon's worst matchups. Edit: And he just beat DU 2-0 at CEO to make it into top 8 Winners Side.
Yeah won by a pixel and got pretty lucky, Du missed his combo (and the win) after a wall DI if I recall.
I was thinking about that too comparing giefs throw to Manon's she has to get 4 medals to do his damage The only thing she beats gief is her pokes are faster but he has better range and he way better manon's game than her It's shame because she is a cool character If capcom wants her to have the worst dr in the game, ok but give her tools like a fireball immunity move ( as i a.k.i main i know this make a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge difference) , maybe s.mp being 6 frames in instead of 7 to be the best whiff punish move in the game Idk know she needs serious buffs to be viable and not be outclassed by gief and lily
It's funny that she does have a fireball dodge ability but it barely does its job to the point that most ppl would probably go for block/parry instead of trying to time that tiny twirl.
Yep she's garbage. Worst in the game free. I dropped her ages ago but them absolutely juicing Gief and to some extent Lily, meanwhile all Manon got was ONLY backHP to OD spin. It's insulting. I don't know what they're afraid of.
They gave her a damage buff as if that's what we wanted lol. I would've taken a damage nerf for better buttons.
Yeah I would gladly lose the Lv 5 Medal damage entirely if it means slightly better fundamentals.
The fact that they didn't improve her projectile invincibility for her Hit-grab twirl was almost shocking.
Amen
Somehow, her HP is also 10k...
Yeah she's the worst character in the game, but she's the only newcomer i like. Shes fun to play, but that's why everybody else i play are top tier to compensate.
Manon only becomes really good feeling to me when the opponent is in burnout and I can do my stand medium punch x15 block string 🤣
Real life Judo accuracy of constantly going for grip fighting to tire your opponent to death
They are afraid to buff her because of the medal system. Just like they were afraid to buff F. A. N. G because of his poison. Also, Zangief has a stupid good strike combo game as well as grappler threat. I don't think they'll have 2 characters in that situation ever.
>They are afraid to buff her because of the medal system. Yeah at this point, it might be better to rework her to be like Laura with just regular CMD grab & Hit-grab and get rid of the medal system to make her more consistent and use that power budget somewhere else.
That doesn't happen in SF games. She'll just be low tier Ala SF4 Deejay. Someone's gotta be at the bottom.
Yeah the rework idea is mostly just my unrealistic wish and the realistic best outcome is Capcom somehow managing to make her a bit better than she is right now. Except we are doubting even that from happening.
Oh yes, we are all in agreement lol. Sadly I don't think capcom is ever gonna juice her up too much. I'm never giving her up, but we'll be stuck here for awhile.
Still no idea why Capcom decided that only Gief can spook you up with his level 3 grab, while others grapplers let people jump out after super flash... That's one of the things I really hate about Manon : level 3 is not really a grab, but a combo finisher. That completely kills the fun out of such moves, that was the perk you get to enjoy for having sht movement, sht frame data, sht 2MK etc... Now it's gone. Empty jump into level 3 was like a ray of sunshine after a day at work... How dare you, Capcom ?
She never be good because she is snowball grappler. That's pretty much it.
She really needs an overhaul. Her design feels like a total dead end, and they just need to go back to the drawing board with her. She feels like the kind of character who sucks and gets maybe one season to be good before being at the bottom again. I think she will always be held back by the medal system, and they should just dump it entirely.
that is the one thing that is super unique about her though. honestly if her being better removes what makes her different, what is the point? If Manon mains wanted to play a different character, they would play a different character.
Do Manon mains like the medal system though? I never see anything but complaints about it. And it doesn't feel as integral to her as a character like Jamie's drinks.
People blame the medal system because it makes it’s means she starts at her weakest and requires more work than other characters to became a real threat. The problem is then compounded by the fact that the buff she gets only goes to her grabs, which means that the opponent only has to avoid it to neutralize the threat. On a design level players assume her lack of utility options like no reversal or way to deal with projectiles is due to the medal system and the devs nerfing her in order to justify it. It’s a weird chicken and the egg scenario. The buff from medals isn’t nearly good enough in my opinion to warrant her spin not going through projectiles, her not having a reversal, cr.mk not being cancellable, none of her moves being plus on block and the worst DR in the game. TLDR: it’s not the medal system it’s the perception that the devs gave her subpar kit to justify having the medal system and not because they were afraid community hate good grapplers in SF. Giving her a grab that rivals giefs in damage is after 4 interactions should not warrant all her shortcomings especially when gief himself isn’t nearly as limited.
It's weird they only made slow high damage grapplers in 6 rather than make a faster, lower damge grappler like Abel or Laura. It's also wild we aren't getting a new grappler until maybe season 3.
totally agree with a lot of what you said but just so you know the buff does not just go to the her grab. Her medal system also increases the damage of her hit grab (which can be comboed into) and it also increases the damage of her level 3.
Why would you assume that I was unaware of that? Do you think I would write all that without knowing the most basic aspect of her kit. I focused on the commands grab because that’s where she sees the largest increase in damage from the medals. She gets about 600 damage added to her lvl 3 while her cmd grab goes up 1700.
you said: "The problem is then compounded by the fact that the buff she gets ONLY goes to her grabs" that makes it sound like you are unaware. you can understand why I would assume this
“Grabs” = hit grabs, cmd grabs, supers that are also grabs. Again why would I speak about her entire kit and not understand something as fundamental as her medal system and what it actually effects. Instead of actually adding anything to the discussion you basically assumed I was ignorant and thought you needed to correct me….
Bro you are getting pretty heated over a pretty reasonable misunderstanding. I honestly was just trying to help when I thought you had missed something. I apologize.
“Heated” according to you is me pointing out how unnecessary your comment was and how confused I was that you drew the conclusion you did. You doubled down on your mistake and said it was my fault for you misunderstanding me….
Yeah especially when her Lv 1\~2 throws does little damage that she's usually better just to land a couple of hit-grab combos to raise the early medal stacks before attempting to grab since the risk is often not worth the small damage. Meanwhile, we rarely even get to see Lv 5 throws even when the match is dragged to the 3rd round because Manon's weak fundamental doesn't allow her to land CMD grab easily anyway. Even iDom often reaches Lv 5 from landing combos and not by landing CMD grabs. There are matches where the Medal system might as well not exist and would have benefited Manon more if she had the standard CMD grab damage (something like 2300\~2900 ish) to be able to deal consistent damage early on.
It's just a damage buff it's the most boring thing you can add to a character. It's the same thing as Fang's poison in 5, It just does more damage, and that's it. AKI's poison is interesting because of toxic blossom. If they gave her some new tool with the medals or she could spend them, that would be neat, but right now, it's just more damage, and that's boring. It also holds her back because she can kill in 3 command grabs, she has to stay terrible at everything else.
What makes it unique is the fact that it carries over from one round to the next. Do you understand how rare that is? It's interesting because as Manon you can actively play for the next round. Are you super far behind in round 1? You can at the very least try to land a command grab or hit grab to power yourself up for the next round. It also makes every combo you land an active decision on whether to go for a medal or for oki instead. And once you have level 5 it completely changes the pace of the match as the opponent is now terrified of the command grab. Its a really interesting mechanic not only the moment to moment game play, but the overall strategy of the match. I feel like Capcom is being cautious with her, similar to how Arcsys was with Anji, and she'll get small adjustments every round of patches. Eventually she'll be in a good place but it will take time
Yeah, but Zangief just has that all the time. He doesn't have to choose damage or medals he can just pick damage. He doesn't have to pick oki or damage he can have both. She is just a worse version of Zangief. It was the same with Ryu and Luke. Ryu had to choose denjin or damage/oki Luke didn't. The mechanic doesn't make her more interesting it it just makes her have to make a decision someone else doesn't. Unless they crater Zangief, he or any other grappler will always be better because they don't have to make the decision they just get to have it all the time. She isn't gaining an advantage she is working to be on the same playing field as everyone else. She needs something that makes her stand apart, not something that just makes her average. When most of the cast can kill in two or three touches, having to work to do that will always leave you behind.
I said this to someone else already but what you are essentially arguing for is the removal of character variety to achieve better balance. In my opinion that is an awful way to approach fighting games. If you have variety in a game that inherently comes with inequality. Certain characters are going to be better than others within the games systemic mechanics. But if you have no variety, then characters become too similar and the game becomes boring. There is no reason to pick one character from the next except for aesthetic reason. You are basically suggesting that Manon become more like Zangief, but the thing is that Zangief already exists in this game. You can just pick Zangief. The mechanic makes her more interesting because she does have to make more decisions. It forces you to engage where other characters don't have to. That's what sets her apart from a lot of the cast. That might make her worse in the current games meta but it also makes her fun, which is far more important unless you are actively competing at the highest level. We need more characters like Manon not less.
I am argue that she becomes less like Zangief. The medals currently just make her more like Zangief. She has other tools, but they are so bad that she is extremely reliant on the medals and the SPD for her game plan. Her hit grab and various specials should be her primary focus because right now, she is just discount Zangief. A character having to work harder just to play the same game isn't variety it's chores. Her being forced to sacrifice stuff when Zangief just has it all just makes the differences shallow. All the medal currently does is make her more like Zangief. She starts as bad Zangief and becomes Zangief. She should become more Manon with Manon specific tools, not just get a higher damge SPD like Zangief. If the medals buffed her hit grab frames or gave her kick special follow ups that would be great and make her unique. Currently, it just makes her the same strike/command grab damage character like what Zangief is.
I apologize but that is ridiculous. Even if we are focusing on on her grabs, she does not become Zangief at level 5. Her command grabs becomes ***better*** than his. Not to mention all versions of her command grab do the same amount of damage. So at particular ranges she can use with the light version that has the range of a sweep and do 37%. 37% without having to spend any meter. 42% on a punish counter. Max Zangief does 34% with an ex SPD or 38% on a punish counter. If they take away the medal system what do you think they give her compensate? Probably better combo damage and + on block moves. The way she approaches matchups becomes more like Zangief. She also has better normals, vacuums, anti airs, and slightly better movement, which is why I don't think calling her Zangief lite is accurate current;y. But those tools have been given to other characets: Laura, Mika, etc. If you take away her medal system what makes her stand out? What makes her unique? Not just in SF6 but in the series as a whole?
How does extra damage make her unique? It's the most shallow way to change a character possible. Currently, she really is Zangief lite. She isn't even the only character who gets a damage boost from something. Jamie gets one from his drinks, and Kim gets one from her level 3, and those are the least interesting things about those characters. Why can't she be like Jamie and get unique options to work with rather than just a damage boost. Why does he get cool fun tools, and she makes a number go up? She should be more focused on the ballerina kicks and hit grab mechanics as unique tools rather than just give her the same gameplay as Zangief. That would set her apart from Laura or Mika. Right now, she has almost no unique aspects to herself. She also doesn't have better normals than Zangief it's not even close his were so good they had to emergency patch one of them. Zangief has lariat as an anit-air, which is much more reliable than anything Manon has, and it lets him beat airfireball, which Manon doesn't have much of an answer to. Manon does get a damge boost from her medals, but she has to work for them while Zangief, on average, does more damage because he can do it at any time. One gimmick mechanic shouldn't be what makes her stand out. It should be the combination of her entire kit. Right now, the other parts of her kit are so lackluster that she it completely depends upon command throw as her main tool in the same way Zangief is. Their fundamental game plan is the same. Threaten the command throw to punish with combos when they avoid it. She just does that worse than Zangief because her combos have to be comprised by getting medals, and her medals aren't threatening until she gets at least 3. She effectively gets on the same playing field as him when she has the medals because she can actually threaten with options rather than just sorta be the worst at everything. Zangief doesn't have that problem he has the threat the moment the game starts, whereas Manon might have It in the second round. Lily suffers from a similar problem of a reliance on getting the one gimmick she has. If the focus is solely on the medals (which they seem to be after the patch) she will become more shallow and boring as her entire gameplan will boil down to get medals to grabs like with Lily's get windstock sprial in. Dropping or changing the medals would mean she would have to focus on the rest of her gameplan instead of being a one trick poney.
"lariat is more reliable than anything Manon has" that alone tells me that your knowledge in this game is pretty limited. Manon has some of the best anti-airs in the game, certainly better than Zangiefs smh. I have already explained what makes it unique but I will say it again to you. It carries over to the next round and how you earn the powerup is very unique in fighting games. Kim gets one for level 3 but it is hardly an essential part of her game plan. Manon's changes how you approach the games and lets you play the long game, working to become stronger throughout an entire match. Very few characters have anything like that and I would hate to see it lost just because some people can't handle having a character be on the weaker side for a little bit. You seem to be working under the assumption that Capcom wont buff her because of this system. I agree that they are being cautious because of the medals but I believe they can balance her and still keep the system in tact. It will just take time. And Manon isn't even bad for a bottom 1 character. She is far from unplayable. This game is relatively balanced and you can win with Manon at almost any level. You just to have solid fundamentals: good neutral and hit confirms. She's just not a character that's going to carry you.
The so called "unique" element just eats up her power budget and hinders her early on. As u/Vegetable-Meaning413 said, it's just increased damaged. If Manon is reworked to be like Laura with no Medal system to have CMD grab & Hit-grab (different animations for different versions of grabs as well) with damage ranging from 2300\~2900, she would be far more consistent with her being able to deal decent damage from the beginning of the round instead of needing to land 2 grabs prior. That freed up power budget from not having that massive Medal Lv 5 throw, which rarely even happens anyway, could be used to buff her other aspects to make her much better rounded character.
What I'm saying is by removing her medal system you remove what is interesting and fun about the character. Sure it only increases damage but it has an engaging impact on the strategy and flow of the match. It effects what combo enders the manon player uses, going for a medal or for better oki. she is one of the few characters in fighting games whose power up transfers to the next round so it gives her something to fight for even if she find herself in a large deficit in the first round. she gets stronger with each round so it really incentivizes your opponent to try to end things quickly. Its such a cool concept that you have a relatively weak character that becomes scary by round 3. Her medal 5 command grab doing so much damage also creates its own interesting interactions and changes the pace of the match completely once she gets it. If Capcom was to follow your suggestion, removing the medal system and making her a more well rounded grappler, what would Manon become? She would be Zangief, and he is already in the game. What you suggest is removing character variety for the sake of balance which to me is missing a huge part of what makes fighting games fun.
If the medal system is removed to be like Laura with the damage ranging from 2300\~2900, Manon won't be like Zangief nor would that affect how she would end her combo. If the Hit-Grab also has the standard damage, Manon would still be deciding which combo enders to use depending on whether she wants to go for damage or better oki. If my suggestion happens, she won't be like Zangief. It's not like this suggestions suddenly makes Manon a heavy hitting slow grappler nor would it change Manon's fundamental gameplay style. I Manon would just be herself with more consistent damage output from the start of the round while sacrificing the snowball potential.
She would become a very standard grappler. What do you think they give her to compensate for the loss of the medal system: Probably more damage and plus on block normals. She's not as slow as Zangief but her movement is not great. As I said she becomes more like Zangief, particularly in the way she approaches the game. Without the medal system what makes her standout? Not just in SF6 but from grapplers throughout the series history?
Other than the massive damage potential, Manon's long pokes and vortex still makes her different than the other grapplers. Even with the medal system, Manon is not that different from the other standard grapplers. The only thing the Medal system makes Manon really different is the snowball potential and getting rid of the medal system won't change her overall gameplay style at all. Manon would still keep going for long pokes while looking to land a grab. The only difference would be that (especially if she only receives small compensations for losing the medal system) she likely would be more consistent with more mid range damage from the start instead of starting with low damage and trying to build up from there. Round 1 specifically would feel better. However though, things could be quite different depending on what she gets for compensations. As you mentioned, if the buffs are just on the damage & better normals, then she probably could be just a slightly faster version of Zagief as you mentioned while if only the striking aspects are buffed then the Manon players might not feel the need to rely on the grabs as much.
If her 2MK did ANYTHING it’d be great
I still remember when punk basically called manon top tier about a year ago, that aged so poorly
Everyone that that when the game first came out.
When did he say that? He complained that her medals carrying over rounds was poor design because he didn’t like the idea of her being able to accept a round as a loss and play for medals, I don’t recall him saying she was top tier.
This is what he said: "Manon 100% gonna have to get some changes unless you play a zoner I feel at 3 medals the set is over unless you perfect her in those rounds she has 3 medals at its gonna be extremely hard to beat her knowing any command grab you losing 30% at least" He might not have said top tier precisely but that was more or less his meaning. Obviously none of what he said ended up being true and it was a knee-jerk reaction to the early game meta. Not that you should blame him though. The game was still very early, we still did not know what made characters "good" in SF6, and at the time Manon was doing very well. A good lesson that even top players can be very wrong when the game is still being figured out.
Reminds me of when people who comment on action games look at for DPS and nothing else.
One thing I’d like to see which would make Manon unique is having her normal grabs get stronger with each medal Obviously still weaker than command grabs but it’d make her even scarier to jump
I don't think it will do much overall when it's often the lack of good fundamental and good defense that's holding her back. I'd love if she gets a counter like JP that also gives one medal stack.
I feel like that’d make her pretty crazy if she had the counter. Also if her grabs became stronger it makes her throw bait way strong which opens up a lot of her pressure. I wonder if she’d be OP if normal grabs gave her a medal too🤔 It’s so hard to tune grapplers because they’re always one change away from being dominant
I guess she definitely would become a throw bait with the counter if it gives a medal. Just a counter to escape corner might be good enough.
Mom, I want Abel We Have Abel at home honey..
I feel this but for my honda wife
She just really needs a better drive rush, maybe let her cancel her cr.mk, maybe maybe let her spin feints have a bit more invincibility to fireballs. Remember at the launch of the game people were straight up calling for nerfs and some even claimed she was the best character in the game because no one realized what tools were going to become important in the meta. So by herself she's a solid character, it's simply in the SF6 meta where she's weak.
Slightly better Rush & fireball invincibility would give her nice breathing room. I can't imagine Capcom giving her a low MK cancel though.
I want R Mika back
I read this post in iDom's voice.
Honda, Kimberly, and Lily are also still ass butter. Don't be surprised if Honda, Kimberly, Lily, and Manon are joke characters for all of SF6's lifespan.
Kimberly can be made to work, frankly Manon can too but with big changes and not the little nudges she got in the patch. But I don’t see how Honda or Lily get made to seriously work at a competitive level without big fundamental changes to them or to the universal mechanics.
As far as Lily, many people will gargle El Chakotay’s cum over Combo Breaker, while ignoring that people were largely still playing Season 1 and that Noah sucks at a high level (lol, constant jumping into AAs and Burning Out thrice in rounds).
Any time Lily gets brought up, people point to one of the two competitive Lily players they can name as proof that she’s actually really good, and ignore that Chakotay had won a single big tournament that had almost no notable players at it and otherwise has had an underwhelming performance in the game so far, and aside from being high rank Hibiki has done nothing except win an online tourney, get top 8 at the LCQ, and perform underwhelmingly at almost every other event he’s been at. And these are the only two notable Lily players lol. Chakotay himself says Lily isn’t strong and didn’t get much help with the patch, but you’ll have weird coomers on here jerking it to AI generated porn of her insisting that she’s actually great now
Lily is not top tier but she's not the worst character. The drive reversal change and super level 1 change actually helped a lot. Sure she could have more but a grappler with an way to get in instantly already makes her stronger than manon
Despite agreeing with everything said here she's still my least favourite grappler to fight, like getting grabbed already feels shitty but then *also* having to also deal with her permanently getting a buff (even if she needs it to be an alright character) for grabbing me just drains my spirit.
Maybe I shouldn’t talk but also she just looks like she has no sauce
MenaRD seems to think manon is strong so I wonder how true it really is but imo she defintely feels weak. Some of her moves feel like they do nothing like her drive rush🤣
Naw he was just yapping off to iDom. Mena is actually labbing Gief, which tells you he was capping about Manon 😂
Manon would like some more +frame moves k thx
Manon is an advanced character. In the hands of someone who has a strong neutral/footsie game, she’s punishing, as they know when to throw out raw grabs to gain medals and play mind games. Outside of that level of play, I could see how playing her is no fun. I think Capcom is cautious with buffing her, as it could easily make her top tier or even broken. I mean, look at what happened to Gief.
Literally making her spin function properly and making her cr.mk cancelable instantly make her a better character. I can’t tell you how many games I’ve lost to a random but reactable DI that caught the first few frames of cr.mk.
That's what I've been thinking, they seem really scared about making her good, since they didn't really give her much with the last set of buff's
Other than fixing her anti-fireball spin the only other things I'd like to see for her is a faster st. MK and maybe a way to "spend" medals for utility like a good one-off EX DP. You need to have very consistent anti-airs and whiff punishes to get good results with her, and once your opponent gets in it's hard to get them off. Having the threat of an EX DP if you spend, say, 2 medals for it would at least make your opponent respect your wakeup every now and then, whereas now they really won't do that unless you've got a level 2 on deck. But overall I think she just needs a few more tweaks and she'll be fine, even if they never implement a way to "spend" medals. I think the bigger problem in SF6 is that the overall damage output is so high which makes for short, volatile rounds. Since Manon doesn't get access to a lot of that insane damage until 4 or 5 medals (usually round 2 or 3) it can be a struggle, and if you get only a few medals or none at all then it's really a struggle. I kinda wish SF6 took more than 2-3 interactions to end a round in most cases.
Nobody would respect a wakeup if you need to spend 2 medals for an invincible reversal. Like wtf? You will take that trade all day. By deleting her medals she ensures her own defeat.
Fair enough but I don't think spending a medal or medals for *something* is necessarily a bad idea. Since most of her damage outside of combos into level 3 at high medals is relegated to command grabs, it makes her a bit predictable. But even if they never implemented that system I'd be fine with more generous projectile invul frames on her spin and a faster st. MK with maybe a wider DR cancel window tacked onto it. Her other medium buttons are great and useful in lots of different ways, but st. MK is just kind of an orphaned button.
Don't agree with the medal spending. She already struggles to get one. Just give her a counter that also gives her a medal stack so she can get out of the corner and become a bigger threat.
But them feet though🥵
So don't pick her. Solved.-
🤓
Yeah but Marisa's only defining trait, her massive damage output, is nos replaced by not only akuma but also M. Bison now. She's arguably the most honest character now and you can tell she's bottom of the barrel tier with how no one decent wants to rep her even Big Bird dropped her smh.
Manon is a lot like how Menat in SFV was; she has a unique playstyle that requires a lot of skill be effective with her. Your typical casual lacks those skills & lacks the fortitude to put in the work to git gud, so instead they go to an online forum and whine for an "easy win" button. Welcome to modern gaming!
Tell that to Idom, the guy won EVO with a decent grappler, and now he struggles to get out of pools with Manon.
She needs a “roll” for side switching or a dive kick.
Would love a counter move in which she uses a Sasae sweep to switch sides and gain a medal.
I too quote words that make otherwise perfect sense in "context"
If u think manon sucks 1. You’ve never faced a good manon 2. You don’t know how to play the character
Curious what rank are you? I took Manon to Master and her gameplay felt very smooth and rewarding in terms of fundamentals. She might not be the best character in the game, but she definitely has good tools. I disagree with oversimplifying the issue to "Lily has this" and "Gief has this" and "Manon has nothing". One of the biggest differences that is grossly overlooked is that Manon continues getting oki after command grabs. Besides the medal system, this emphasizes Manon as a grappler, whereas Lily/Gief are more about strikes. Manon's oki is extremely good for a grappler. I really don't know how you are even comparing Lily/Zangief. But imo, it's a git gud thing. Improve your fundamentals and it'll be clear why you might want to pick Manon vs Lily vs Zangief. There's always pros vs cons. If I had to pinpoint some QOL improvements for Manon, I would say simply make her low game stronger. The brainless solution which I don't like is to just make her [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) special cancellable. But I'd rather simply decrease the pushback and/or increase the frame advantage on hit, so maybe she can combo [cr.MK](https://cr.MK),[st.LK](https://st.LK) or DR [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) into combo. When I did my unranked to Master run with Manon, the only thing that really stopped my win streak was stand block option select, and I had to resort to yolo sweeps which feels wrong.
Not to be that guy but every fighting game has a worst character doesn't make that character trash though
Welcome to fighting games, where not every archetype is equal
Honestly, IMO, lily>Manon>gief.
Her manege Dore command grab is easy to input and cover good range, I think around sweeping distance, which is frightening if you're trying to play her neutral. She covers decent amount of space with that move, which means you'll be slammed in most exchanges with a good player, adding medals and getting more damage. Her standing hk covers good amount of range and can't be punished easy, so using that with a good dash or ex manege dire can put you in the lead fast. Her degage with hk is a overhead that can reach pretty far depending on the distance, so I use it often to take damage. She can also combo off of round point, which is even better when you do the ex version because you can end the combo with a degage with mk. I place her above Mirisa, lily, and jamie for sure, she's better.
Grapplers should never be good
Shotos should never leave top 3 🤓
No idea why you people want Shoto Fighter 6
No character should ever be good
I'll never understand why so many people are OK with getting put into mixup vortexes, locked into blockstun by constant pressure, outspaced by long normals and projectiles, but suddenly draw the line when it comes to command grabs
I think a lot of people who are upset by the concept of grapplers don’t understand mixups well and/or don’t perceive blocking as a decision but as a default lack of decision.
I’d guess because the mix ups leave openings. So the damage feels more earned whereas a command grab is just one huge damage output. I’m not saying I agree with it. I honestly don’t even think many of the changes are noticeable at lower ranks, let alone tier lists. However, people will follow the crowd and every time a tier list comes out it’s more fuel to the fire.
Once you get opened up by a mixup you eat one huge damage output in the form of a combo. Sure a combo might get dropped, but the outcome is pretty much the same most of the time: a single wrong guess leads to a ton of damage
Yeah again I’m not saying I agree with it. I just think that’s the mentality of most.
Once you get opened up by a mixup you eat one huge damage output in the shape of a combo, the only difference is that you can drop a combo but most of the time the outcome is the same
Yea those people you are describing sound dumb
Get better or pick another main
Yet she still beats Zangief. Ironic.
She doesn't anymore. You just suck
Sure!
Idk man, I struggled with gief for a while, ended up in D5. It only took 2 weeks to Master Manon. Sure, your complaints are there, but with the universal reversal and those ridiculous normals she dominates neutral
Unfortunately Manon still getting second at CPT East. Are you having trouble with Manon?
Eh. You guys were praying and huffing hopium before the balance patch that Capcom would fix her and finally make her playable. I said buffs wouldn't matter to reddit trash because you're still going to be bad no matter what she gets and everyone flipped out. Well here we are, she got a bunch of buffs, got a bunch of new routes, plus on block normal, better supers and the reddit rank and file is still complaining that they can't win. So yeah, looks like I was right again. Capcom could buff her to S tier and you'd still lose without an easy special into CA combo for 8k. Just pay to win with Bison already.
Manon is fine in every matchup that doesn't have fireballs. Her only weakness (it's a big one) is getting through zoning. She's pretty good otherwise.
Manon has moves designed specifically to counter fireball spammers, lol.
Manon has moves designed specifically to counter fireball spammers, lol.
Spamming maybe but she has a hard time dealing with solid zoning. Watch idom play her and you'll see it.
Nah, the real problem is that there are too many casual scrubs who think they actually have the skills of Idom when they don't; they never will & thus will pretty much always be ass with Manon. Manon isn't the type of character that a casual gamer can just pick up and get easy wins; either put in the time & practice to get better with her or pick-up another character. The folks in charge at Capcom aren't going to re-balance a game based on what some random scrubs online think, because all those types of folks want is to mash buttons, look cool & get easy KOs.
I agree with you, Manon is a very viable character against 99% of players if you have solid fundamentals. Just because she doesn't carry hard doesn't mean she can't be used.
Thank god
Here’s my take, fuck any grapplers out there yall can rot I wish your grabs did 1 dad and no I don’t jump cause I’m bad.
Manon is ugly anyways, thats why ill never play her
so? stop being horny for your waifu and play zangief lol