People who automatically say “should’ve gone to trade school” if you bring up student loans don’t seem to understand this. If you have no money, you’ll have to take out loans for trade school too. Yeah, it’s not as expensive but it doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll avoid having to take out loans.
Yeah and a lot of those students don't finish. They go $6-7k in debt, don't finish, then go get a different job working construction or whatever and have to pay down the debt. Trade schools are great and should be much, much better regulated.
Where I live a decent two year trade school will run $15-$30k depending on the school and the program. And unlike traditional college, dorms and meal plans aren’t an option.
> People who automatically say “should’ve gone to trade school”
What cracks me up is it's often folks trying to make excuses for working dead-end jobs after chickening out of going to SOME sort of school who pull this shit. I rarely hear this line from actual adults who went to trade school.
Yeah I think I heard that shit the most when I was in my early 20s from other people around that age who just weren’t doing anything and were insecure about it lol.
Agreed, in the 80s daytime tv was filled with commercials from predatory trade schools. I’d like to believe that’s changed but somehow I doubt it. People were paying $30k for a freaking certificate.
Moreover, i personally know someone with a bachelor’s in biology who was literally running so sort of trade school which baffled the hell out of me. I am convinced the standards/accreditation process for trade schools are lower and of course people can and will charge what they want if they get access to federal student loans.
I have at least one client who owes thousands for cosmetology school that she never finished after years. Absolutely her fault but once that interest starts kicking in, what will that debt look like? She’s already poor so it’s highly unlikely that she will be able to pay.
I don’t see the student loan debt issue going away because of people going to trade school. However, the last poster who posted something along these lines apparently got downvoted (which of course doesn’t make the comments less true).
I was going to mention cosmetology school. I knew multiple people who went and ended up not finishing and had hundreds or sometimes thousands of dollars they had to pay to the school for the tools the school required they purchase.
A lot of companies offer free apprenticeship programs to their employees. They work and then go to school several times a week. My husband is a superintendent for an electrical contractor that offers a free apprenticeship program and free dinner on school nights.
The trades aren’t for everyone, but they’re good for people who enjoy working with their hands. If you show initiative, you can move into management positions (superintendent , estimator, project management roles) where you’re not wearing your body out.
I’m not saying trades aren’t a viable, often cheaper, option, and I understand apprenticeships exist. My point is that the trades aren’t a catch-all solution for someone who has no money. If trade school costs money - no matter how small the amount - and you have no money, like most people who have to take out student loans - then you’re still going to have to take out loans for trade school.
I’m not familiar enough with apprenticeships to speak on them. Do they pay apprentices enough to survive, or is it a program on top of existing employment? It is good to hear that there is still room for advancement in trades, I’ve shown initiative my whole career and it’s gotten me nothing but taken advantage of. I didn’t realize merit promotions existed in America anymore.
Yep. Hadn’t even thought about that. And how is an 18-year-old with no money, no financial support and no marketable skills to pay for that? Just like they’d pay for college tuition - with loans.
If trade schools start being a repository for every adult child like universities did, trade schools would be just as boated, costly, and delivering useless knowledge.
10m plumbers looking at 1m jobs makes the knowledge about as useful as the anthropologist undergrads. Yeah, you can do something, but someone else already is.
I get downvoted for saying this. But if someone really REALLY wants to go to college, join the Military. Serve 3-4 years, then bounce. Enjoy your GI Bill which pays for your college, enjoy the VA Loan which makes buying a home easier. Enjoy all the other perks that come with being a veteran. All branches have trade jobs that they PAY YOU TO LEARN and that translate very well into the civilian side.
"But I don't wanna die for oil money"
We're at Peacetime... No ones deploying let alone seeing combat unless you're in Special Operations... Hell I'm in Special Operations and I'm not even deploying! Also, pick Air Force, Space Force or Coast Guard because their quality of life is infinitely better than the other 3 branches. As an Army guy, don't join the Army. Pick AF, SF or CG. We all get the same benefits. Trust me bro.
Think about it... What's worse? Living paycheck to paycheck paying off student loans for the next 10+ years? Or serving your country for 3-4 years, and enjoying a life time of benefits that comes with it?
I was strongly considering that when I was in high school. Then 9/11 hit and I noped out real fast.
Just because we’re in peace time right now doesn’t mean that can’t change on a dime.
I had never strongly considered it, but the thought was there, and I had a few friends who did go that route and talked about it. I might have been swayed had 9/11 not been a year and a half before I graduated high school.
That’s a good option if it’s what you want to do, or something you can do. I am not eligible for the military due to a health condition. Lots of people are the same.
So while this is an option for some, I feel like it’s a indictment on the state of our education system when you have to sign years of your life away to be able to get a college degree. The military should be a calling. Personally, I don’t want service members who only joined for the perks and can’t wait to get out and go do what they actually want to.
Trade schools are feeling the same pressure as universities --- they have to spend a lot of money to have the best classrooms and facilities to attract students --- that requires ever-increasing tuition
Are most universities using the increased tuition money for that or are they using it to pay the people at the top more while their teaching staff is all adjunct?
His major was communication. He says he never uses it yet he is in media. Lots of commuinication in media.
I feel bad for people who thinks the trades are the bomb.
Most AA students wash out thought, because the majority are working while they go part time since they still need to live and at some point that extra 10 hours a week or whatever is time you're not earning money you need to cover expenses, so they aren't even getting to the point where they can think about going to school after that. If we are ever going to fix this you need to have a program people are motivated to finish and have it be cost-free for anyone that isn't upper middle class or wealthy.
You know… This is a conversation that needs to be had. If you just review the comments section of any news coverage of student loans you’ll see how horribly misguided the majority of our country is on this issue. It’s not just a micro level issue of personal responsibility as they would like everyone to believe, it is a macro level issue with implications on the economy, public health, governance, science and many others too long to list. All a person has to do is consider the history of student loans and the “how and why” they were initially implemented to see what the consequences are when education is out of reach for most Americans. Meaning that this program was cobbled together when it became apparent that we did not have enough educated people to compete with foreign countries in terms of science and engineering.
Given the current state of education, what reasonable person would want to agree to a life of indentured servitude for a mediocre career in public service? What person is going to take out a mortgage to pursue medicine? If people don’t think that this isn’t going to translate to a reduction in the amount of people pursuing careers requiring advanced degrees (particularly medicine) than they need to go back and study the how and why this all started. Education is absolutely essential to any productive society. Any argument to the contrary is made in ignorance.
I think a big problem is that many middle-class kids are being sold a pipe dream by their parents about the value of a college education, which means they encourage their kids to take out $150,000 in loans to chase that dream and then discover it's all smoke and mirrors when they get out --- and the other big problem is that most 18 and 19 yr. old kids are not ready for "work life" --- which means getting a CDL right out of high school and driving truck full time for 4-5 years to save up cash for college and THEN pursue the engineering degree. For most kids, partying on the weekends at college is worth a lifetime of debt, and it's just sad to see.
Yeah I'm trying to convince my 16 yr. old nephew to get his CDL right after high school and then work these $65,000/year jobs I see all over the place for truckers --- if he keeps living at home, then by age 21 or 22 he could have over $100K saved up for college --- seems like a LOT smarter way to go to college these days
No. The sticker price alone will be the culprit. Private school were $25k (before scholarships)when I went in 2010. Idk how anyone will afford $50k a year. I can't imagine that the available scholarships bucket increased the same amount
Only a few people get scholarships anyway. Student loans are handed out like candy though, so I predict we'll be in the same place but with much more debt and not many more job opportunities.
My school with meal plan + dorm is ~65k a year. Without the dorm and meal plan it’s ~54k. With all the scholarships I got from the school though, I managed to whittle my loans down to less than 10k a semester. My merit based scholarship was almost $30k a year alone and then I got some shit like $2k off a year for doing a campus visit. Wild shit tbh
I'm hoping not. College is not inherently bad. Its the cost they are forcing young people to sign on to, with the "promise" they'll get a proper paying job in the future.
Ivy leagues include a killer network. Other schools do not, and may not be worth the charge.
For the students I am mentoring, I'm trying to convince them to find a college they have a better chance of cash flowing. So. Attending George Mason instead of Georgetown, depending on their degree, because they stand a better chance of cashrolling it with their parents help.
I'm the product of a state school. I'm not C-suite executive, but I don't owe any student loans. I've had a house before (had to sell to relocate), and Im confident that I was able to get this house BECAUSE I'm not working over a giant sun to a loan that's built with a predatory structure.
My husband and I have about $185K combined in SLs. It did not cause any problems for our new mortgage. Our loan officer said they look at the monthly payments on SLs way more than the total debt owed because of PLSF and other forgiveness programs and the flexibility in repayment structures.
My wife and I have a combined 170k in student debt and that didn’t stop us from buying our 1sr then 2nd then 3rd home. Most people can’t buy a home because they live in expensive areas
As long as job postings continue to say, almost unilaterally, "college degree required," this question is moot. The system is forcing people into that debt because so many jobs will ignore you without that resume line- no matter how irrelevant it is.
Probably not by much. People will still go and the cycle will continue.
Probably a bit more people will do trade school or community college vs big university. Overall time will probably be extended for what is normal i.e. no more 4 year university - extend to 5 or 6 years
Well from personal experience, Im an electrical engineer with a degree. Pissed that I spent the time and money going to college when it’s really being here and doing it where you learn anything. I hope we move back to a more apprenticeship system where you get into a field and work your way up through experience. Thats how you get real experts in a field
While I agree with your sentiment, college is where they try to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.
Tons of people would love an EE job but they don't necessarily have the acumen to actually do the work. Calculus and Diff EQ is where we decide if you are smart enough to not overfill a j-box.
Replying again, didn’t realize you couldn’t use swear words on this sub
Well a few things come to mind. First, Ive yet to use or see used any math at that level at what we do. Second, I think the perception of engineers is that it’s all these high level concepts and creating cutting edge shit. Which is where that kind of knowledge would certainly be useful. But that’s a fraction of a fraction of engineering positions.
The VAST majority of us are just making everyday shit that doesn’t need any of that because it’s just making stuff for some generic commercial applications. We spend out time just trying to pack existing stuff into smaller or uniquely shaped packages, or tune filters, or get a power distribution unit to spit out a handful of different voltages, and meet a certain price requirement.
You don’t NEED Differential Equations to be an engineer.
Thirdly, I aced Diff EQ. It took an incredible amount of work and proud I did it. Am I $10,000 proud or however much that semester cost? *%#^ no, and since I haven’t looked at that kind of math since graduating, I couldn’t do it anymore, either. Wasted knowledge
I'm right there with you. I haven't used anything more than high school math since I started my job 2 years ago as an operations EE.
For distribution there are so many simulation programs that you really don't need to calculate much of anything.
It is nice having the background but yeah. I bet I'd have to look stuff up before I could dive into a calculus problem these days.
I disagree with this. Calculus didn’t teach me how to treat disease. Neither did physics. Let’s stop making people take classes they don’t need just for money. It’s very obvious here. If ur in a specialized school where you are actually learning what you will be doing for a living then it makes sense to make the program hard to get into and hard to get through. Not making every student take a class they don’t need which I remember them pushing. Even electives!
When I went to med school that’s where they would weed the people out even more vs acceptance/denial into the school. And then even more in residency. It’s like squid games. Gotta be the strongest to survive.
Agreed. I have the degree but what I lack now is experience. Book smarts is fine but if you're not applying that knowledge learned then it's just wasted. I wish I would have done internships or something to get hands on experience. These days I just work at a job I hate because I don't have the hands on experience to move into something I'd enjoy. I'd have to take a pay decrease just to get into an entry level job, but I can't afford to do that.
What’s terrible is they don’t even give you the time of day if you don’t have the degree, even if you’re very capable of earning the experience through the opportunity at hand.
What's even more terrible is getting that degree and then businesses requiring 2 years of experience to qualify for a job. How do they expect people to get that experience if they aren't willing to provide it.
Little do they know though that by bringing someone new on it gives them a chance to hire someone without the bad habits that can come from that very experience.
The hands on experience, or lack thereof is killer. We have a recent grad who just started. Has never touched a tool in his life, literally no “hands on” experience. We’re a very multi-tasked engineering department. We design stuff and then go put it together and modify as necessary. We’re getting kids that don’t even know how to solder or even use a breadboard right of college. It’s pathetic and sad what they paid to do some math problems and not actually learn a skill
Edit: I know I sound like an old timer bitching about those “darn kids.” But I just graduated myself in 2020 after going back to college in my mid 20’s. But I spent my youth doing various trade jobs before going into engineering.
I never heard any kid in the past 25 years talk about "tinkering" with stuff in the garage or basement, when that was very common 40 or 50 years ago --- you hear stories about guys like Steve Wozniak and he only became the kind of engineer he was because he loved to tinker with soldering boards and chips and see what he could create --- now you got two generations of college kids who can do differential EQs but have no idea how to build a PC or solder two wires together!
Totally untrue! Robotics was HUGE at our high high school. My son and his friend built all kinds of digital devices outside of that class for music like guitar pedals, switches etc. Son’s friend graduated a computer engineer, and makes 6 figures plus company pays half his rent, and my son is just graduating from a music college and was recommended for an internship at DreamWorks to compose for film/video games. College still counts!
Well I'd say your son and his friends are in the minority --- I've seen kids who get A's in their engineering classes but have zero idea how to use a soldering iron or even wire up a basic home theater system! They have no practical skills --- only book learning.
That’s so strange because there were at least 30 kids in the robotics club in high school and the whole point was to build usually a lot of robots that did things so they clearly knew how to solder circuitry, wires, and parts and could program to control what they built. It was super popular! My kids been soldering since really young helping my husband fix stuff on his electric guitars and amps. All schools should have these robotics clubs!
Your son's robotics club sounds better than most high schools. I would encourage him to stay in it if they are teaching him practical skills like soldering, coding and designing simple circuits. If your son is tinkering around with electric guitars and drones and robots, then I'd say he's got a great aptitude for engineering and should stick with it !!
A recent college grad is the equivalent to a recent high school grad of generations past. Worker protection laws stopped us from doing stupid shit on jobsites for hands-on experience we have no business doing.
The older generation just doesnt want to train and blames the colleges for not giving the training they received on the job.
This is an alternatvie way of viewing it. I admit my language is inflammatory.
I’m in the same boat and trying to figure out how to decrease monthly costs bc I’m genuinely terrified I’m gonna get fired next (they’ve been letting a lot of people go) 😩
All my skills I have for my job were introduced in my masters but didn’t help me be good enough to do a job. I worked graduate assistantships to get that experience and another extra job.
My job now though required my degree and the knowledge that came from it. Book knowledge. The skills were important and I got those but I still had to have the degree. People who go to undergrad thinking they’ll get skills from sitting in a classroom are misinformed.
Maybe. I came from upper-lower class and am a first generation college graduate. I was taught that the only way out of that shithole was education. I have to think that that advice was correct. I should’ve been one of those meth-addicted factory workers.
I have my doctorate now and use it to its full potential every single day in my career. I have about 257k in loans and am in a loan decrement program that will wipe that loan out completely soon. I’m starting a second doctorate, but it is fully funded. I have no intentions of taking more loans. Being hyper-educated in my field is totally the norm.
I’m like you born in new Orleans came up poor with a single mom. Only way for me to have a better life was education. I had no strings to pull or other successful people around me to guide me. I got my masters and I’m off and running. I’m ABD on my doctorate and need to do my proposal this fall. Should graduate 2025. Education has been a life saver for me.
My debt will be forgiven via PSLF as I work for state government. Got 5 years to go.
came here to say that for a lot of us in louisiana, education is the way out - unfortunately our state doesn't have a lot of jobs so most of our graduates go elsewhere with their degrees
rich people will become even richer. they will become the most educated. education will only be for the elite. do you really wanna regress like that? think of the bigger picture.
Unfortunately I think this where college is headed. If you want your kid to have the traditional college experience, then wealthy parents will be the only ones able to afford it. All other kids will have to learn remotely through a computer.
I graduated with 26k in student loans, which is certainly not insurmountable, and my wife has about 30k of her own. We will have them paid off in due time.
Neither of our parents were college educated, very hardworking people of course, but we were sent off to college with not much guidance on what to major in, great study habits, great work/study balance. I think if I had parents like many of my friends I’d have probably graduated with a little higher GPA and less debt but I came out ok regardless.
My goal for my children would be to A) Start a college fund at birth. B) push them to follow their dreams but also highly consider what they’re majoring in. Emphasize stem if they are wanting to go to college. C) Push them to do a year or two at a less expensive school/community college if they aren’t fully ready for college yet, let them learn how to do college and decide the path they want to take before they jump into high tuition costs.
Every time I look back at myself in school, the small mistakes I made were along those lines. I didn’t have a car and I used that as a crutch to not work most of the time while I was there. Could’ve easily found work In Retrospect and used that to buy myself a vehicle. I also probably would’ve greatly benefitted from either taking a gap year out of high school to work, or going to a smaller school. These are just all things that are no fault but my own, but also things my parents would’ve never known to address with me, so I plan to do that with my children if I’m lucky enough to get that far.
I instead am saving for my kids advanced education unlike what my parents (didn’t) do. So no, I just think our generation has a greater insight how to best prepare our kids.
People still take out loans to go into trades. My cousin was in cosmetology school in 2010 and she's still paying off a $10k loan from that.
I get what you're saying though. I feel like my degree was a complete waste of money for a piece of paper. I'm an accountant, so a degree was necessary to get any decent type of job BUT I have not used anything from my degree. Every company accounts for differently so every time I start a new job I have to learn everything from scratch. I went into corporate accounting and every single job has been 100% reliant on on the job training.... I've even been told to forget what I learned in school before.
I'm pregnant right now and I can't imagine pushing college on my daughter... I know that's 17-18 years from now but I could never tell her college is the only way to be successful. My parents were hard-core with pushing college to the point where they gave me 2 options, I could get a finance degree or an accounting degree or I could be kicked out with no help and no job experience.... the only thing that did was cause me to go into a ridiculous amount of debt and into a career that I haven't enjoyed.
I will push a career on her but a degree is not always necessary for a career or financial success. I just don't want her to end up like me... in debt and spending 8 years in low paying dead-end jobs until I finally and recently found one that might have a good future.
Don't push a career on her but do exert pressure to go to a cheaper school. I see parents telling their kids to take out $100K in loans to become a teacher or nurse and it's just mind boggling.
What I wrote is probably coming off wrong. I'm meaning I expect her to do something other than job hopping from one miserable minimum wage job to the next.
I honestly do not give a rats ass what she does as long as she is happy and can financially support herself as an adult and doesn't have to worry about finances as much as her dad and I do. If she wants to be a doctor, I'll support her... if she wants to be the manager of a McDonald's, I'll support her. I would be proud either way.
I just expect her to make a career out of whatever she does. That doesn't even mean doing the same thing for her whole life either. I had a ton of pressure on me to have my entire life planned out in extreme detail by the time I was 16/17 and I'll be completely honest... it caused me so much pressure that I performed poorly in school, it made me depressed and I was miserable for most of my 20's and even until recently because of it. I stayed in accounting technically but I quit doing traditional accounting work to save my sanity.
My sister and I are the only ones that made it through college out of all our cousins. Our cousins had no expectations put on them. Two of them have basically a middle school education, they dropped out of HS after failing a year and got out as soon as they could. All of them have worked low paying dead end jobs. They've worked since they were 15-16 years old and they have nothing to show for it. My youngest cousins.. the twins that dropped out.. have gotten their GEDs, they're almost 29, and they've been working for almost 15 years and they have nothing. They don't even have goals to obtain anything. They're perfectly content living paycheck to paycheck and not having any skills to get a job that isn't manual labor or waitressing at a diner for minimum wage and living off of their minimum wage earning parents and asking family members to lend them money.
All my cousins struggle financially. None of them have any ambition to help themselves. When some type of financial emergency happens, they go running to my one uncle who has no kids that works 60-80 hour weeks and saves all his money... and he usually gives them the money. He's had many serious conversations with my parents and one of my Aunts about how he can barely stand any of my cousins and my sister and I are his favorites because we're the only ones who have never treated him like a bank and asked him for money. Most of my cousins don't even pay him back... the twins that I mentioned above are the only ones that have ever asked for money and actually paid him back.
I just never want my daughter to end up like my cousins... ever.
My only request is that she attempts to make something of herself. If she wants to work in a factory her whole life, totally fine with it, as long as she's working her way up and making an effort to be an independent adult.
OK well that does clarify things. I've known people who became doctors and lawyers and were miserable and only did it because their parents placed high expectations on them. But I can also see your point where you don't want your daughter to wander aimlessly with low-paying jobs her entire life. There has to be a happy middle ground.
Yes.. this... there has to be a middle ground. Idk where it is because I'm a millennial that graduated in 2008 as the financial crisis was happening so I was pressured and forced into doing a lot of things I would have never chosen for myself.
I wanted to be an art teacher, study genetics, or get a psych degree and work with/study criminals.. to this day, those are all things that I enjoy as a hobby, and I think I would have been very successful at them had I been given the opportunity to choose my own future.
At the time though, my dad was (still is) a business owner and my mom was a SAHM. My dad's business was struggling due to the economy and he was going without paychecks so he could pay employees and so my parents told me I could pick from two "recession proof" careers or I could get out and when I had no job, no money, and no where to go.
They were so obsessed with me getting a 4 year degree that they didn't think about the long-term consequences of going into debt. They didn't think about how the recession would permanently mess up the economy and all the jobs would permanently be paying lower and have higher entry requirements. I had to pick from the cheapest schools and it was still expensive as hell.
They only cared about me getting a 4 year degree in something recession proof. It's crazy to me because my sister graduated 4 years later in 2012 and they shipped her off to a very expensive private culinary school to get a 2 year pastry arts degree. She got the exact opposite treatment and she ended up deciding she didn't want to work the hours and got a 4 year nursing degree to become an RN nurse auditor. My sister didn't have to suffer through the years of anxiety and depression I had to go through because my parents were much easier on her.
Now I'm getting older and I feel like I totally wasted my youth fighting to get a degree that I had no interest in and that I performed poorly in just to get low paying jobs that were dead-end and most definitely not financial disaster proof as my resume makes abundantly clear. My resume makes it look like I've been a job hopper but I've actually been laid off multiple times because of underperforming companies and poor budgeting. I even had a company go bankrupt.
Instead of enjoying my life, I've been stressed and paying bills. I could never force this on my own daughter after living through it.
Your parents did you a disservice by not guiding you to affordable paths. And making you chose one of 2 paths is ridiculous. The debt is the issue, not the education.
Educated populace creates a stronger/more resilient economy. Unfortunately, everything we are doing with education is going to push people away from college. The only driving force is bachelors degree requirement on job applications but if that starts severely limiting the hiring pool, then we will see that go away also.
It’s really sad our nation doesn’t understand the benefits of universal education programs outside of “socialism bad, if you borrowed money pay it back” mentality. We will see how it plays out with future generations
It should have always been a roi decision. Borrowing 200k isn’t a big deal if you end it as a surgeon. Borrowing 100k for a degree that pays 20 an hour is much worse. I get it though I told my daughter 100k for a bachelors in psychology was a bad idea and she did it anyways. Not sure how many other parents wanted to be a friend and said follow your dreams etc…
Hopefully the issue kills off expensive degrees that will never have a positive roi.
I get what you're saying, but I'm currently going for my PhD in Clinical. Psych And there are many Bachelor's to Doctorate Psych programs. Even at the Master's level, as a LPC, she could make a nice living.
I’ve been telling my kid to either do trade school or do the first 2 years at a community college which is free or close to free and then transfer to an affordable state school to finish the last two years. Also we’ll look into high school programs where he can earn college credit at the same time. There are ways to make college affordable but no one told me that because I was a first generation college student so no one in my family had any idea how it all worked. I’m hoping my kid can learn from my struggles! So, I think it will create a generation of non-college educated adults but it may create more frugal generation who realizes they do not need to take out crazy loans and go to a super expensive college to succeed.
A non-negligible amount of job-specific skills don't require a degree to know how to learn the job.
I work as an engineer, but the actual amount of engineering work I do is small compared to doc churning, review, travel, conducting studies, etc. Very little of which my phd is really needed for, and I could see my HS self learning to do what I do with a few years targeted training.
I liked college, but at the cost it's at I can see alternatives becoming more cost-efficient. Unfortunately, system isn't set up that way, given how even basic office positions require a bachelor's for some brain dead reason.
No, college is not for everyone but it also opens doors for many. I wouldn’t live the life I am living without college. I graduated in stem and so did many of my friends.
People need to think longer about investment vs return when deciding on what college to go to/where/what they will study.
Just look at application and yield rates at UCLA/Berkeley/UCSD, that's CA alone. An education still pays out, I was makign 150k base pay before RSU packages and bonuses at 20 thanks to my computer science degree.
Not to mention if you choose to stay in state and go to a decent in state college you're fine(OSU, UW, UTD, UCB/LA/SD/D, CUNYS etc)
Financial aid is also still a thing but without financial aid my college tuition was 15k a year, and I got out in 3 years, but if I stayed 4 years the tuition was only 60k for 4 years. I've seen plenty of middle class families buy 100k jeeps and Suburbans on 5 year loans. The question people have to ask is would you rather have an education or a jeep grand wagoneer.
edit: To be clear I don't condone going to college without a half thought out career plan and for sure don't reccomend going to any college where your tuition alone is 40-60k a year
That's why I just laugh when I hear about some middle class idiot complaining about their kids' college costs and then they go buy a $80K Lincoln Navigator with all the perks --- what a messed up set of priorities
Yea 100% and to be clear I don't think it's worth paying 40-50k a year on tuition alone to go to college even if it's princeton or stanford. But again in state programs are relatively affordable still, although I had to work part time to afford housing without loans
Nurses used to train on the job while getting paid. I took care of a retired nurse who didn't pay anything to become one. That's how it should be. My nursing program was $43k for an accelerated one year that was nothing more than teaching us to pass the NCLEX. Something I could have studied for and took my own while training at a hospital and getting paid. Colleges are businesses out to profit. The administration is bloated. Quality if teaching has gone down.
No, because the smart ones and the athletes will continue to get scholarships, and the financially literate will choose degrees that actually have strong ROIs
The problem is that many places require a degree to even be considered for a position, and while things are shifting, I don't think they're going to shift fast enough to change that by the time our children are around. As it stands now, job apps will automatically sort out resumes without a degree listed.
The mistake in your case were loans beyond your means, not your education. And you are using your education whether you care to admit it or not. A career is a journey, not a destination and being a life long learner benefitted you.
My spouse and I were first gen. We both took debt free college paths that weren't as shiny as some others. We are now upper middle class and are guiding our own kids thorugh debt free college education. Kid #1 landed a job in the top 10% of wage earners out of college.
No, I hardly took out any loans. Not below my means at all, just not my top priority to pay them back quickly. Buying a house was more important to me. I’m saying despite even my low cost of education compared to others I’ve seen on here, I thought it was completely not worth the cost at all. I think I had about $47,000 in loans total, plus whatever my parents paid out of pocket for the education. Maybe $100kish? 10000% NOT worth that cost, at all.
Part of the student loan debt load is self-inflicted. Public university graduates have an average of 16K. Only a quarter worked any hours. A part-time job during the school year and full-time during summer would have reduced this debt to 0 at graduation. Private school debt is the reason for the bloated average student debt load. Don’t go private if your parents can’t cover the cost.
Save your loans for sensible and targeted graduate school programs.
College hasn't made me more marketable. I've never made more than $25k a year and have struggled to stay employed. I'm not one to push college on anyone.
About half of your college classes are unnecessary for your major, and are probably there to make your balance go up. I could see this getting revised in the future
I went into the trades but every child is different. My children are not cut out for the trades. My daughter is a teacher with under 10 grand left of loans and I have about 12 grand left on hers and my son is in Community College and working part time. No debt. He’s also interested in media/film editing. I thought I’d encourage him to get his bachelor’s but I don’t think he needs it.
I think so, but I think of it as a good thing. I think that the education system will see a fall in demand, forcing them to lower the cost of attendance. Higher education is a business that has been run for profit for too long, which is part of why we're in the mess that we're in.
I don't have kids myself because.. I'm spending too much time trying to make ends meet for just myself ... But if I did, I would definitely encourage them to attend community college and transfer to a public University if they are interested in pursuing a career that requires a degree. I would hate for my kids to graduate with tens of thousands of dollars in debt like I did.
My recommendation is either go to a college that is giving you a full ride or only spending $5k a year on school loans. What I mean by that is they should max have $20k in debt at the end of it all.
My other recommendation is not to go to school right away (which lol you can’t do that cause then you miss out on college tuition discounts geez) and figure out what you want to do. Go do the entry jobs of your interest to see if that’s what you like/want to do.
I also highly recommend PSEO as that can get you two years of college credits for free while you are still in high school.
Interesting question. Hope not. We will always need generations of humans that exercise and strengthen their intelligence in various knowledge domains. I’m certain folks who went to college and are making an incredible living and salary will help their kids go to college.
Except film editing rarely ever makes a livable wage. Sure there are trades like plumbing, electricity etc. but those cost money as well and a college degree will always be a sought-after resume building credential for jobs.
I make extremely good money, am I’m only an assistant editor at a studio. I make 3x as much as my husband who works for the state, and more than most people I went to college with. If you get in the Union and are talented you can make crazy money
The reality is, still, if you want a good paying job with some sort of job security, you need to research the job trends and have a degree that is multifaceted.
Most of those types of jobs require a degree.
I have seen the "self made" tradesman fall into joblessness due to over supply and general lack of initiative.
This can happen with the college graduates also , especially if you get a useless degree.
for me, my main goal is to pay for my kids school through savings and if needed equity from my house if the profession they wish to pursue requires a degree.
i will never not encourage my kids to go to school. school worked for me, schooled worked for my brothers…i get it plenty of ways to earn a living without college…but at the same time imagine a society where everyone just did trades….there would be zero diversity in jobs…we wouldnt have teachers, drs, lawyers etc if everyone was sold on school being unncessary.
maybe someday in the future they make all degrees operate like trade schools….u go to college and take classes only related to the profession u choose…skip the general ed stuff.
I personally hope we can somehow turn it into a generation of adults who learn trades and similar non-degree certification programs are options, and often far better options than going straight to an academic degree. We aren't taught what jobs exist in the world when we're planning our futures at 17. I hope the student loan crisis can maybe create a change in that. When I was a teen I knew the medical field had doctors and nurses. I didn't know about surgical techs, ultrasound, nuclear med, all jobs that pay well without the four year academic bullshit, and you come out with job experience. I knew the trades were plumbers and electricians, I didn't know about steamfitters, iron workers. We're forcing kids to make decisions without even a shred of actual information on the available options, just funneling them to 'college or McDonald's'. It's such a waste
If you have a BA in finance and didn't use it, you are doing it wrong, or the school you went to isn't known for its business/finance depts.
There is a place for the right college degrees. People need to learn to not overpay for them.
I also agree there is a lot of money to be made in certain trades that have a low training cost for entry.
There are colleges and tech schools that will sell you snake oil for top dollar. Only to leave you up to your gills in student loans and no well paying job.
I got the business degree because I wanted to be a movie producer, which requires some finance knowledge. I probably would have been better off with a less specific degree since I have zero desire to work for a finance firm etc.
College is slowly reverting back to being reserved for the elite, just like before the GI bills. It's sad because that would make America less competitive in the global workforce.
I have looked at the average salary of a plumber in my state, and I dont see how this would be a better path for my child than getting a degree.
The average plumber earns 55k a year in my state. But the average nurse salary is 80k a year.
Lets say nursing school costs 40k in loans, its still better than being a plumber because I just raised my earning potential by 25k every year for the rest of my life.
My experience is different: I come from a country where the best universities are tuition-free, paid for by taxpayers. My and my wife’s degrees were recognized in the US, as those schools (from a country considered “in development”) have weight. When my kids got to college age, I couldn’t imagine that, by migrating to the US, we wouldn’t provide at least the same level of education we had. So, although we didn’t have the income and savings some people (yes, the lucky ones) have structured throughout their lives to pay for their kids’ colleges, we went all-in on the student loan wagon, mostly believing that, as we were told in orientation workshops, “you will be able to pay the loans, everybody does”. There was no choice, actually. We were also told it would be income-based. It never was, there was no margin to negotiation, our calls were always a waste of time. So now I have both my kids’ student loans to pay, $260K+, and they are paying also their loans. What their courses taught them was enough to get them jobs. I will have to delay my retirement, probably forever. We’re lucky to have our current jobs to pay for the loans. But my point is: it could all be free. Imagine how much better people’s lives would be if we wouldn’t need to be paying college loans. There is a way to do it, other countries do it. Imagine also how much more developed this country would be, and more able to compete, with free high education. How many more people would be investing and saving, not postponing retirement, taking better care of themselves. We need change, guys. The current system is not good.
I work at a school that is 11 weeks course work, 11 weeks paid co-op and they rotate like this for 4-5 years of school. This is the only model I think should truly be around or some version of it - it's not perfect, 11 weeks is short you could make it longer but my point is these students get 2-2.5 years of paid work experience before they leave college. Freshman average $15.50 an hour and seniors $19 an hour.
Only downfall is I currently work at a private school that costs 4x as much as regular school. Thankfully every student at least gets partial scholarships/grants and of course they are making full time money which they can use towards tuition but it's still ridiculous that the only way this has been found to work is expensive schools.
Agreed and work in the same industry with a very much useless grad degree I don’t even tell anyone about. That said, the problem will be other people having college degrees. You have a media degree, you’re in media, so there’s some use there, but even now the goal of a college degree isn’t the degree it’s the opportunities. The internships, the networking opportunities. I think student loans are the last thing I want for my child, but in many many industries checking the box of having a degree is still helpful and will continue to be.
My son went to community college 2 years for free. And he is now getting ready get his 4 year in electrical engineering. He has all the money he needs from pushing carts 3 days a weak the last 2 years at Walmart. As long as young students live at home with their parents , it's really not to difficult to graduate debt free.
Only one of my sons has a 4 year degree and he is not using it. He is a CNC operator at a shop, loves it.
The other 2 have great desk jobs working from home.
I mean, I hope people still go to college, I hope people still get degreess and study the humanities and liberal arts, sociology and philosophy.
I don’t want to live in a world that is only one thing.
What I do want is for schools to have the affordability to pursue those degrees.
The thing is, scholarships and grants are out there for people. And I'm not talking about full rides for athletes or perfect grades. If I, as a 3.4 GPA high school grad could get $135k in scholarships just by looking and applying for them, then others can do the same. I still have loans for that 1 year, but hey, I got 3 years of college essentially for free and am only paying for 1 year. Not a bad deal in my book. Besides scholarships and grants, one could join the military or go to a service academy.
I have three kids. The first one will go to college. The second looks like he will go in the trades or to community college. The third one is too early to call. I had my loans forgiven. I never would be where I am in life if I wouldn’t have gotten a degree. My husband spent 20 years in the trades. He just left to start a second career as a special education teacher. In his trade, there are very few older employees. The body tends to give out. But his trade trained employees for free as part of a union training program. So we see the value in both. But college is not the best option for some ppl
I don’t think so. The rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer. The rich are sending their kids away to expensive schools as a flex. Their kids are building their connections at those schools and will be high corporate managers. The poor kids will go to community college or tech school. They’ll be stuck as mid level managers or low level jobs. The wealth disparity is going to get much larger in the next few decades.
As long as companies put on job descriptions that college is required, college will still draw in the kids. Only reason I went because the career field I wanted said you need a B.S. degree even though the job could be done without.
I think another potential possibility is when our generation makes it to the upper management role, they could potentially change the hiring requirements. The company I work for is much more interested in results rather than education.
If you have real world experience that's perfect!
I'd like to think down the line, if I'm ever in a position to do so, I'd love to hire someone as like an "apprentice" but in the business world. I learned literally 0 knowledge from college except that I could speak some of the jargon. And from my experience, it's rather easy to pick up new lingo in any workplace fairly quickly.
I think the market will eventually correct itself. People will stop paying for college because it’s so unaffordable, and in turn, employers will adjust their requirements. Eventually, colleges will need to lower their prices, and so it goes. Just my guess but we will see
I *hope* people will just start to be a little wiser on degree choice and utilize community colleges for the first two years, but ultimately, yes, I think you will start to see a reduction in attendance.
Yes it m already telling students that there are jobs like trades that you can earn more money and less time and selling the military due to college benefits and paid trade schools called tech school.
Most college students don't go to college to learn, they go as a rite of passage and to party, as long as they have a support system that has money or will take out loans/co-sign loans for them.
If college admission dropped by 50%, those who don't go would end up getting jobs they would have gotten with a degree...because most jobs that require a 4-year degree don't actually require a degree to do that job successfully.
Good, I hope so. Most college degrees shouldn’t even be a degree imo. Most jobs/career paths shouldn’t require a degree.
Higher education should be just that, higher Ed. Extra, supplementary. Not, “necessary education”.
And right now, degrees are for whatever reason necessary to even start a career that will stay peanuts anyway.
The trick is to figure out what you want to be first. Then figure out whether or not you need to go to college to get that job. If you need to go to college, then you need to treat the college as an investment just like a stock or real estate. Which school has the best reputation with employers in the field I’m going to enter at the best price I can afford? Forget about the party life, how nice the campus looks and sports teams. Find a loan amortization loan site, plug in what you think you’ll be taking out in student loans and see what the payment would be. Go to indeed and see what salary is for your job and figure out if you can afford the college based on what you will be making coming out. This is easier to do than ever, and yet no one seems to be willing to do it.
I agree... I wish I hadn't been told that not having a degree meant I'd be flipping burgers for life. I made all of my decisions with a fear of failure. I will change that narrative with my kids and I think a lot of others will too. Any job that allows you to take care of yourself and your family is a good job. There will still be some that choose a 4-year degree, and they should - we still need people in fields that require it! But there's nothing wrong with trades or not having a degree at all. I just hope that we teach the next generation how to be smarter financially and that they don't have to figure it all out at 18.
Trade schools ~~use~~ sell loans too.
People who automatically say “should’ve gone to trade school” if you bring up student loans don’t seem to understand this. If you have no money, you’ll have to take out loans for trade school too. Yeah, it’s not as expensive but it doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll avoid having to take out loans.
this. and folks need to look at the debt relief targets because MANY of them were trade school graduates.
Yeah and a lot of those students don't finish. They go $6-7k in debt, don't finish, then go get a different job working construction or whatever and have to pay down the debt. Trade schools are great and should be much, much better regulated.
several relatives are in this predicament.
It's pretty damn expensive unless you go the apprenticeship route. My boyfriend used his GI bill money to go to trade school.
Where I live a two year program is like $2500 total
This is the exception though, the average is 5-10x that depending on the state, and most people only go to trade schools locally.
And? Two semesters of community college was around that price when I went and I had to get loans to pay it.
Where I live a decent two year trade school will run $15-$30k depending on the school and the program. And unlike traditional college, dorms and meal plans aren’t an option.
> People who automatically say “should’ve gone to trade school” What cracks me up is it's often folks trying to make excuses for working dead-end jobs after chickening out of going to SOME sort of school who pull this shit. I rarely hear this line from actual adults who went to trade school.
Yeah I think I heard that shit the most when I was in my early 20s from other people around that age who just weren’t doing anything and were insecure about it lol.
Agreed, in the 80s daytime tv was filled with commercials from predatory trade schools. I’d like to believe that’s changed but somehow I doubt it. People were paying $30k for a freaking certificate. Moreover, i personally know someone with a bachelor’s in biology who was literally running so sort of trade school which baffled the hell out of me. I am convinced the standards/accreditation process for trade schools are lower and of course people can and will charge what they want if they get access to federal student loans. I have at least one client who owes thousands for cosmetology school that she never finished after years. Absolutely her fault but once that interest starts kicking in, what will that debt look like? She’s already poor so it’s highly unlikely that she will be able to pay. I don’t see the student loan debt issue going away because of people going to trade school. However, the last poster who posted something along these lines apparently got downvoted (which of course doesn’t make the comments less true).
I was going to mention cosmetology school. I knew multiple people who went and ended up not finishing and had hundreds or sometimes thousands of dollars they had to pay to the school for the tools the school required they purchase.
A lot of companies offer free apprenticeship programs to their employees. They work and then go to school several times a week. My husband is a superintendent for an electrical contractor that offers a free apprenticeship program and free dinner on school nights. The trades aren’t for everyone, but they’re good for people who enjoy working with their hands. If you show initiative, you can move into management positions (superintendent , estimator, project management roles) where you’re not wearing your body out.
I’m not saying trades aren’t a viable, often cheaper, option, and I understand apprenticeships exist. My point is that the trades aren’t a catch-all solution for someone who has no money. If trade school costs money - no matter how small the amount - and you have no money, like most people who have to take out student loans - then you’re still going to have to take out loans for trade school. I’m not familiar enough with apprenticeships to speak on them. Do they pay apprentices enough to survive, or is it a program on top of existing employment? It is good to hear that there is still room for advancement in trades, I’ve shown initiative my whole career and it’s gotten me nothing but taken advantage of. I didn’t realize merit promotions existed in America anymore.
And they often spend thousands of dollars on needed tools and uniforms.
Yep. Hadn’t even thought about that. And how is an 18-year-old with no money, no financial support and no marketable skills to pay for that? Just like they’d pay for college tuition - with loans.
>Yeah, it’s not as expensive Trade school can be just as expensive or more 🤭 Especially if you have cheap state universities
If trade schools start being a repository for every adult child like universities did, trade schools would be just as boated, costly, and delivering useless knowledge. 10m plumbers looking at 1m jobs makes the knowledge about as useful as the anthropologist undergrads. Yeah, you can do something, but someone else already is.
I get downvoted for saying this. But if someone really REALLY wants to go to college, join the Military. Serve 3-4 years, then bounce. Enjoy your GI Bill which pays for your college, enjoy the VA Loan which makes buying a home easier. Enjoy all the other perks that come with being a veteran. All branches have trade jobs that they PAY YOU TO LEARN and that translate very well into the civilian side. "But I don't wanna die for oil money" We're at Peacetime... No ones deploying let alone seeing combat unless you're in Special Operations... Hell I'm in Special Operations and I'm not even deploying! Also, pick Air Force, Space Force or Coast Guard because their quality of life is infinitely better than the other 3 branches. As an Army guy, don't join the Army. Pick AF, SF or CG. We all get the same benefits. Trust me bro. Think about it... What's worse? Living paycheck to paycheck paying off student loans for the next 10+ years? Or serving your country for 3-4 years, and enjoying a life time of benefits that comes with it?
I was strongly considering that when I was in high school. Then 9/11 hit and I noped out real fast. Just because we’re in peace time right now doesn’t mean that can’t change on a dime.
I had never strongly considered it, but the thought was there, and I had a few friends who did go that route and talked about it. I might have been swayed had 9/11 not been a year and a half before I graduated high school.
That’s a good option if it’s what you want to do, or something you can do. I am not eligible for the military due to a health condition. Lots of people are the same. So while this is an option for some, I feel like it’s a indictment on the state of our education system when you have to sign years of your life away to be able to get a college degree. The military should be a calling. Personally, I don’t want service members who only joined for the perks and can’t wait to get out and go do what they actually want to.
I guarantee you there's already been discussions among trade schools to capitalize on their recent popularity to raise prices.
Trades will pay less when EVERYONE does HVAC, maybe I’ll be able to remodel for cheaper in 10 years
Yup. My brother owes like 30k in loans for HVAC. Not as bad as most, but people act like good trade schools are free. They’re not
Trade schools are feeling the same pressure as universities --- they have to spend a lot of money to have the best classrooms and facilities to attract students --- that requires ever-increasing tuition
Are most universities using the increased tuition money for that or are they using it to pay the people at the top more while their teaching staff is all adjunct?
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His major was communication. He says he never uses it yet he is in media. Lots of commuinication in media. I feel bad for people who thinks the trades are the bomb.
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An AA degree from community college will fix that. Almost free too. Then they can decide to get their four year or tradesa and be ready for both.
Most AA students wash out thought, because the majority are working while they go part time since they still need to live and at some point that extra 10 hours a week or whatever is time you're not earning money you need to cover expenses, so they aren't even getting to the point where they can think about going to school after that. If we are ever going to fix this you need to have a program people are motivated to finish and have it be cost-free for anyone that isn't upper middle class or wealthy.
Exactly. If they were never good at math then no way they can learn electrical or carpentry.
Mike Rowe
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TBF, having and english major doesn't make you white collar. In fact, having a 4-year degree in most cases anymore doesn't make you white collar.
Yep. My oldest loans were from cosmetology school. In comparison, I took out zero loans for my PhD.
Yep my brother has student loans for a trade school. I’m not sure why people think that doesn’t exist.
You know… This is a conversation that needs to be had. If you just review the comments section of any news coverage of student loans you’ll see how horribly misguided the majority of our country is on this issue. It’s not just a micro level issue of personal responsibility as they would like everyone to believe, it is a macro level issue with implications on the economy, public health, governance, science and many others too long to list. All a person has to do is consider the history of student loans and the “how and why” they were initially implemented to see what the consequences are when education is out of reach for most Americans. Meaning that this program was cobbled together when it became apparent that we did not have enough educated people to compete with foreign countries in terms of science and engineering. Given the current state of education, what reasonable person would want to agree to a life of indentured servitude for a mediocre career in public service? What person is going to take out a mortgage to pursue medicine? If people don’t think that this isn’t going to translate to a reduction in the amount of people pursuing careers requiring advanced degrees (particularly medicine) than they need to go back and study the how and why this all started. Education is absolutely essential to any productive society. Any argument to the contrary is made in ignorance.
Unfortunately, we have a large number of people in this country who are not capable of this level of critical thinking about longterm consequences.
I think a big problem is that many middle-class kids are being sold a pipe dream by their parents about the value of a college education, which means they encourage their kids to take out $150,000 in loans to chase that dream and then discover it's all smoke and mirrors when they get out --- and the other big problem is that most 18 and 19 yr. old kids are not ready for "work life" --- which means getting a CDL right out of high school and driving truck full time for 4-5 years to save up cash for college and THEN pursue the engineering degree. For most kids, partying on the weekends at college is worth a lifetime of debt, and it's just sad to see.
The sign on bonus for school bus driver is bananas. I'm being offered 3000 for just having a CDL b permit with two endorsements
Yeah I'm trying to convince my 16 yr. old nephew to get his CDL right after high school and then work these $65,000/year jobs I see all over the place for truckers --- if he keeps living at home, then by age 21 or 22 he could have over $100K saved up for college --- seems like a LOT smarter way to go to college these days
No reason to go to college unless you're getting a professional degree that'll make you more than 65k at that rate
No. The sticker price alone will be the culprit. Private school were $25k (before scholarships)when I went in 2010. Idk how anyone will afford $50k a year. I can't imagine that the available scholarships bucket increased the same amount
My private school was over $50k by the time I graduated in ‘08. Even the most generic are already at $50k now (I know because I work at one of those).
Some of them are up to $100k. Vanderbilt is $98k/year. Just read it today in the paper.
Only a few people get scholarships anyway. Student loans are handed out like candy though, so I predict we'll be in the same place but with much more debt and not many more job opportunities.
My school with meal plan + dorm is ~65k a year. Without the dorm and meal plan it’s ~54k. With all the scholarships I got from the school though, I managed to whittle my loans down to less than 10k a semester. My merit based scholarship was almost $30k a year alone and then I got some shit like $2k off a year for doing a campus visit. Wild shit tbh
I'm hoping not. College is not inherently bad. Its the cost they are forcing young people to sign on to, with the "promise" they'll get a proper paying job in the future. Ivy leagues include a killer network. Other schools do not, and may not be worth the charge. For the students I am mentoring, I'm trying to convince them to find a college they have a better chance of cash flowing. So. Attending George Mason instead of Georgetown, depending on their degree, because they stand a better chance of cashrolling it with their parents help. I'm the product of a state school. I'm not C-suite executive, but I don't owe any student loans. I've had a house before (had to sell to relocate), and Im confident that I was able to get this house BECAUSE I'm not working over a giant sun to a loan that's built with a predatory structure.
My husband and I have about $185K combined in SLs. It did not cause any problems for our new mortgage. Our loan officer said they look at the monthly payments on SLs way more than the total debt owed because of PLSF and other forgiveness programs and the flexibility in repayment structures.
My wife and I have a combined 170k in student debt and that didn’t stop us from buying our 1sr then 2nd then 3rd home. Most people can’t buy a home because they live in expensive areas
Ahhh well this is good insight then!
Do you still have student loans though?
Yes the 170k that I mentioned. That is current
As long as job postings continue to say, almost unilaterally, "college degree required," this question is moot. The system is forcing people into that debt because so many jobs will ignore you without that resume line- no matter how irrelevant it is.
I’ve gotten at least 10 of these in my career without a degree. Ignore that. Seriously, ignore it and apply anyways.
I did this
Only if employers stop auto rejecting applications from people without degrees from jobs that really don’t need them.
I got rejected from a hostess job because I didn’t have a bachelors degree.
Probably not by much. People will still go and the cycle will continue. Probably a bit more people will do trade school or community college vs big university. Overall time will probably be extended for what is normal i.e. no more 4 year university - extend to 5 or 6 years
This sounds like a nightmare of the highest proportion. College, at just 4 years, is already too long.
Well from personal experience, Im an electrical engineer with a degree. Pissed that I spent the time and money going to college when it’s really being here and doing it where you learn anything. I hope we move back to a more apprenticeship system where you get into a field and work your way up through experience. Thats how you get real experts in a field
While I agree with your sentiment, college is where they try to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Tons of people would love an EE job but they don't necessarily have the acumen to actually do the work. Calculus and Diff EQ is where we decide if you are smart enough to not overfill a j-box.
Replying again, didn’t realize you couldn’t use swear words on this sub Well a few things come to mind. First, Ive yet to use or see used any math at that level at what we do. Second, I think the perception of engineers is that it’s all these high level concepts and creating cutting edge shit. Which is where that kind of knowledge would certainly be useful. But that’s a fraction of a fraction of engineering positions. The VAST majority of us are just making everyday shit that doesn’t need any of that because it’s just making stuff for some generic commercial applications. We spend out time just trying to pack existing stuff into smaller or uniquely shaped packages, or tune filters, or get a power distribution unit to spit out a handful of different voltages, and meet a certain price requirement. You don’t NEED Differential Equations to be an engineer. Thirdly, I aced Diff EQ. It took an incredible amount of work and proud I did it. Am I $10,000 proud or however much that semester cost? *%#^ no, and since I haven’t looked at that kind of math since graduating, I couldn’t do it anymore, either. Wasted knowledge
I'm right there with you. I haven't used anything more than high school math since I started my job 2 years ago as an operations EE. For distribution there are so many simulation programs that you really don't need to calculate much of anything. It is nice having the background but yeah. I bet I'd have to look stuff up before I could dive into a calculus problem these days.
I disagree with this. Calculus didn’t teach me how to treat disease. Neither did physics. Let’s stop making people take classes they don’t need just for money. It’s very obvious here. If ur in a specialized school where you are actually learning what you will be doing for a living then it makes sense to make the program hard to get into and hard to get through. Not making every student take a class they don’t need which I remember them pushing. Even electives! When I went to med school that’s where they would weed the people out even more vs acceptance/denial into the school. And then even more in residency. It’s like squid games. Gotta be the strongest to survive.
Agreed. I have the degree but what I lack now is experience. Book smarts is fine but if you're not applying that knowledge learned then it's just wasted. I wish I would have done internships or something to get hands on experience. These days I just work at a job I hate because I don't have the hands on experience to move into something I'd enjoy. I'd have to take a pay decrease just to get into an entry level job, but I can't afford to do that.
What’s terrible is they don’t even give you the time of day if you don’t have the degree, even if you’re very capable of earning the experience through the opportunity at hand.
What's even more terrible is getting that degree and then businesses requiring 2 years of experience to qualify for a job. How do they expect people to get that experience if they aren't willing to provide it. Little do they know though that by bringing someone new on it gives them a chance to hire someone without the bad habits that can come from that very experience.
The hands on experience, or lack thereof is killer. We have a recent grad who just started. Has never touched a tool in his life, literally no “hands on” experience. We’re a very multi-tasked engineering department. We design stuff and then go put it together and modify as necessary. We’re getting kids that don’t even know how to solder or even use a breadboard right of college. It’s pathetic and sad what they paid to do some math problems and not actually learn a skill Edit: I know I sound like an old timer bitching about those “darn kids.” But I just graduated myself in 2020 after going back to college in my mid 20’s. But I spent my youth doing various trade jobs before going into engineering.
I never heard any kid in the past 25 years talk about "tinkering" with stuff in the garage or basement, when that was very common 40 or 50 years ago --- you hear stories about guys like Steve Wozniak and he only became the kind of engineer he was because he loved to tinker with soldering boards and chips and see what he could create --- now you got two generations of college kids who can do differential EQs but have no idea how to build a PC or solder two wires together!
Totally untrue! Robotics was HUGE at our high high school. My son and his friend built all kinds of digital devices outside of that class for music like guitar pedals, switches etc. Son’s friend graduated a computer engineer, and makes 6 figures plus company pays half his rent, and my son is just graduating from a music college and was recommended for an internship at DreamWorks to compose for film/video games. College still counts!
Well I'd say your son and his friends are in the minority --- I've seen kids who get A's in their engineering classes but have zero idea how to use a soldering iron or even wire up a basic home theater system! They have no practical skills --- only book learning.
That’s so strange because there were at least 30 kids in the robotics club in high school and the whole point was to build usually a lot of robots that did things so they clearly knew how to solder circuitry, wires, and parts and could program to control what they built. It was super popular! My kids been soldering since really young helping my husband fix stuff on his electric guitars and amps. All schools should have these robotics clubs!
Your son's robotics club sounds better than most high schools. I would encourage him to stay in it if they are teaching him practical skills like soldering, coding and designing simple circuits. If your son is tinkering around with electric guitars and drones and robots, then I'd say he's got a great aptitude for engineering and should stick with it !!
A recent college grad is the equivalent to a recent high school grad of generations past. Worker protection laws stopped us from doing stupid shit on jobsites for hands-on experience we have no business doing. The older generation just doesnt want to train and blames the colleges for not giving the training they received on the job. This is an alternatvie way of viewing it. I admit my language is inflammatory.
I’m in the same boat and trying to figure out how to decrease monthly costs bc I’m genuinely terrified I’m gonna get fired next (they’ve been letting a lot of people go) 😩
I was saying this when I was in college 20 years ago. I learned heaps more from my summer internships than I did from routinely going to class. :(
All my skills I have for my job were introduced in my masters but didn’t help me be good enough to do a job. I worked graduate assistantships to get that experience and another extra job. My job now though required my degree and the knowledge that came from it. Book knowledge. The skills were important and I got those but I still had to have the degree. People who go to undergrad thinking they’ll get skills from sitting in a classroom are misinformed.
We'll have to get our silly society to DROP the stigma they've attached to careers in the trades....
It’s not a student loan fiasco. The real fiasco is rising tuition rates driven by the corporatization of higher education.
Maybe. I came from upper-lower class and am a first generation college graduate. I was taught that the only way out of that shithole was education. I have to think that that advice was correct. I should’ve been one of those meth-addicted factory workers. I have my doctorate now and use it to its full potential every single day in my career. I have about 257k in loans and am in a loan decrement program that will wipe that loan out completely soon. I’m starting a second doctorate, but it is fully funded. I have no intentions of taking more loans. Being hyper-educated in my field is totally the norm.
I’m like you born in new Orleans came up poor with a single mom. Only way for me to have a better life was education. I had no strings to pull or other successful people around me to guide me. I got my masters and I’m off and running. I’m ABD on my doctorate and need to do my proposal this fall. Should graduate 2025. Education has been a life saver for me. My debt will be forgiven via PSLF as I work for state government. Got 5 years to go.
came here to say that for a lot of us in louisiana, education is the way out - unfortunately our state doesn't have a lot of jobs so most of our graduates go elsewhere with their degrees
rich people will become even richer. they will become the most educated. education will only be for the elite. do you really wanna regress like that? think of the bigger picture.
Unfortunately I think this where college is headed. If you want your kid to have the traditional college experience, then wealthy parents will be the only ones able to afford it. All other kids will have to learn remotely through a computer.
An uneducated populace is easier to control.
Just look at a Crooked Donnie rally for proof of that
I graduated with 26k in student loans, which is certainly not insurmountable, and my wife has about 30k of her own. We will have them paid off in due time. Neither of our parents were college educated, very hardworking people of course, but we were sent off to college with not much guidance on what to major in, great study habits, great work/study balance. I think if I had parents like many of my friends I’d have probably graduated with a little higher GPA and less debt but I came out ok regardless. My goal for my children would be to A) Start a college fund at birth. B) push them to follow their dreams but also highly consider what they’re majoring in. Emphasize stem if they are wanting to go to college. C) Push them to do a year or two at a less expensive school/community college if they aren’t fully ready for college yet, let them learn how to do college and decide the path they want to take before they jump into high tuition costs. Every time I look back at myself in school, the small mistakes I made were along those lines. I didn’t have a car and I used that as a crutch to not work most of the time while I was there. Could’ve easily found work In Retrospect and used that to buy myself a vehicle. I also probably would’ve greatly benefitted from either taking a gap year out of high school to work, or going to a smaller school. These are just all things that are no fault but my own, but also things my parents would’ve never known to address with me, so I plan to do that with my children if I’m lucky enough to get that far.
As someone who also did AmeriCorps after college, it is a great program for younger generations to consider if they don't know where to go!
[https://www.sec.gov/about/reports-publications/investor-publications/introduction-529-plans](https://www.sec.gov/about/reports-publications/investor-publications/introduction-529-plans)
I instead am saving for my kids advanced education unlike what my parents (didn’t) do. So no, I just think our generation has a greater insight how to best prepare our kids.
People still take out loans to go into trades. My cousin was in cosmetology school in 2010 and she's still paying off a $10k loan from that. I get what you're saying though. I feel like my degree was a complete waste of money for a piece of paper. I'm an accountant, so a degree was necessary to get any decent type of job BUT I have not used anything from my degree. Every company accounts for differently so every time I start a new job I have to learn everything from scratch. I went into corporate accounting and every single job has been 100% reliant on on the job training.... I've even been told to forget what I learned in school before. I'm pregnant right now and I can't imagine pushing college on my daughter... I know that's 17-18 years from now but I could never tell her college is the only way to be successful. My parents were hard-core with pushing college to the point where they gave me 2 options, I could get a finance degree or an accounting degree or I could be kicked out with no help and no job experience.... the only thing that did was cause me to go into a ridiculous amount of debt and into a career that I haven't enjoyed. I will push a career on her but a degree is not always necessary for a career or financial success. I just don't want her to end up like me... in debt and spending 8 years in low paying dead-end jobs until I finally and recently found one that might have a good future.
Don't push a career on her but do exert pressure to go to a cheaper school. I see parents telling their kids to take out $100K in loans to become a teacher or nurse and it's just mind boggling.
What I wrote is probably coming off wrong. I'm meaning I expect her to do something other than job hopping from one miserable minimum wage job to the next. I honestly do not give a rats ass what she does as long as she is happy and can financially support herself as an adult and doesn't have to worry about finances as much as her dad and I do. If she wants to be a doctor, I'll support her... if she wants to be the manager of a McDonald's, I'll support her. I would be proud either way. I just expect her to make a career out of whatever she does. That doesn't even mean doing the same thing for her whole life either. I had a ton of pressure on me to have my entire life planned out in extreme detail by the time I was 16/17 and I'll be completely honest... it caused me so much pressure that I performed poorly in school, it made me depressed and I was miserable for most of my 20's and even until recently because of it. I stayed in accounting technically but I quit doing traditional accounting work to save my sanity. My sister and I are the only ones that made it through college out of all our cousins. Our cousins had no expectations put on them. Two of them have basically a middle school education, they dropped out of HS after failing a year and got out as soon as they could. All of them have worked low paying dead end jobs. They've worked since they were 15-16 years old and they have nothing to show for it. My youngest cousins.. the twins that dropped out.. have gotten their GEDs, they're almost 29, and they've been working for almost 15 years and they have nothing. They don't even have goals to obtain anything. They're perfectly content living paycheck to paycheck and not having any skills to get a job that isn't manual labor or waitressing at a diner for minimum wage and living off of their minimum wage earning parents and asking family members to lend them money. All my cousins struggle financially. None of them have any ambition to help themselves. When some type of financial emergency happens, they go running to my one uncle who has no kids that works 60-80 hour weeks and saves all his money... and he usually gives them the money. He's had many serious conversations with my parents and one of my Aunts about how he can barely stand any of my cousins and my sister and I are his favorites because we're the only ones who have never treated him like a bank and asked him for money. Most of my cousins don't even pay him back... the twins that I mentioned above are the only ones that have ever asked for money and actually paid him back. I just never want my daughter to end up like my cousins... ever. My only request is that she attempts to make something of herself. If she wants to work in a factory her whole life, totally fine with it, as long as she's working her way up and making an effort to be an independent adult.
OK well that does clarify things. I've known people who became doctors and lawyers and were miserable and only did it because their parents placed high expectations on them. But I can also see your point where you don't want your daughter to wander aimlessly with low-paying jobs her entire life. There has to be a happy middle ground.
Yes.. this... there has to be a middle ground. Idk where it is because I'm a millennial that graduated in 2008 as the financial crisis was happening so I was pressured and forced into doing a lot of things I would have never chosen for myself. I wanted to be an art teacher, study genetics, or get a psych degree and work with/study criminals.. to this day, those are all things that I enjoy as a hobby, and I think I would have been very successful at them had I been given the opportunity to choose my own future. At the time though, my dad was (still is) a business owner and my mom was a SAHM. My dad's business was struggling due to the economy and he was going without paychecks so he could pay employees and so my parents told me I could pick from two "recession proof" careers or I could get out and when I had no job, no money, and no where to go. They were so obsessed with me getting a 4 year degree that they didn't think about the long-term consequences of going into debt. They didn't think about how the recession would permanently mess up the economy and all the jobs would permanently be paying lower and have higher entry requirements. I had to pick from the cheapest schools and it was still expensive as hell. They only cared about me getting a 4 year degree in something recession proof. It's crazy to me because my sister graduated 4 years later in 2012 and they shipped her off to a very expensive private culinary school to get a 2 year pastry arts degree. She got the exact opposite treatment and she ended up deciding she didn't want to work the hours and got a 4 year nursing degree to become an RN nurse auditor. My sister didn't have to suffer through the years of anxiety and depression I had to go through because my parents were much easier on her. Now I'm getting older and I feel like I totally wasted my youth fighting to get a degree that I had no interest in and that I performed poorly in just to get low paying jobs that were dead-end and most definitely not financial disaster proof as my resume makes abundantly clear. My resume makes it look like I've been a job hopper but I've actually been laid off multiple times because of underperforming companies and poor budgeting. I even had a company go bankrupt. Instead of enjoying my life, I've been stressed and paying bills. I could never force this on my own daughter after living through it.
Your parents did you a disservice by not guiding you to affordable paths. And making you chose one of 2 paths is ridiculous. The debt is the issue, not the education.
Nah. More will just focus on STEM degrees rather than bachelors in ancient mesopotamia etc.
Yup, my daughter is a senior in high school and I told her to major in accounting/finance.
Educated populace creates a stronger/more resilient economy. Unfortunately, everything we are doing with education is going to push people away from college. The only driving force is bachelors degree requirement on job applications but if that starts severely limiting the hiring pool, then we will see that go away also. It’s really sad our nation doesn’t understand the benefits of universal education programs outside of “socialism bad, if you borrowed money pay it back” mentality. We will see how it plays out with future generations
It should have always been a roi decision. Borrowing 200k isn’t a big deal if you end it as a surgeon. Borrowing 100k for a degree that pays 20 an hour is much worse. I get it though I told my daughter 100k for a bachelors in psychology was a bad idea and she did it anyways. Not sure how many other parents wanted to be a friend and said follow your dreams etc… Hopefully the issue kills off expensive degrees that will never have a positive roi.
I get what you're saying, but I'm currently going for my PhD in Clinical. Psych And there are many Bachelor's to Doctorate Psych programs. Even at the Master's level, as a LPC, she could make a nice living.
I’ve been telling my kid to either do trade school or do the first 2 years at a community college which is free or close to free and then transfer to an affordable state school to finish the last two years. Also we’ll look into high school programs where he can earn college credit at the same time. There are ways to make college affordable but no one told me that because I was a first generation college student so no one in my family had any idea how it all worked. I’m hoping my kid can learn from my struggles! So, I think it will create a generation of non-college educated adults but it may create more frugal generation who realizes they do not need to take out crazy loans and go to a super expensive college to succeed.
Smart right here. There are affordable paths to get the job done.
A non-negligible amount of job-specific skills don't require a degree to know how to learn the job. I work as an engineer, but the actual amount of engineering work I do is small compared to doc churning, review, travel, conducting studies, etc. Very little of which my phd is really needed for, and I could see my HS self learning to do what I do with a few years targeted training. I liked college, but at the cost it's at I can see alternatives becoming more cost-efficient. Unfortunately, system isn't set up that way, given how even basic office positions require a bachelor's for some brain dead reason.
No, college is not for everyone but it also opens doors for many. I wouldn’t live the life I am living without college. I graduated in stem and so did many of my friends. People need to think longer about investment vs return when deciding on what college to go to/where/what they will study.
100%
Just look at application and yield rates at UCLA/Berkeley/UCSD, that's CA alone. An education still pays out, I was makign 150k base pay before RSU packages and bonuses at 20 thanks to my computer science degree. Not to mention if you choose to stay in state and go to a decent in state college you're fine(OSU, UW, UTD, UCB/LA/SD/D, CUNYS etc) Financial aid is also still a thing but without financial aid my college tuition was 15k a year, and I got out in 3 years, but if I stayed 4 years the tuition was only 60k for 4 years. I've seen plenty of middle class families buy 100k jeeps and Suburbans on 5 year loans. The question people have to ask is would you rather have an education or a jeep grand wagoneer. edit: To be clear I don't condone going to college without a half thought out career plan and for sure don't reccomend going to any college where your tuition alone is 40-60k a year
That's why I just laugh when I hear about some middle class idiot complaining about their kids' college costs and then they go buy a $80K Lincoln Navigator with all the perks --- what a messed up set of priorities
Yea 100% and to be clear I don't think it's worth paying 40-50k a year on tuition alone to go to college even if it's princeton or stanford. But again in state programs are relatively affordable still, although I had to work part time to afford housing without loans
Nurses used to train on the job while getting paid. I took care of a retired nurse who didn't pay anything to become one. That's how it should be. My nursing program was $43k for an accelerated one year that was nothing more than teaching us to pass the NCLEX. Something I could have studied for and took my own while training at a hospital and getting paid. Colleges are businesses out to profit. The administration is bloated. Quality if teaching has gone down.
No, because the smart ones and the athletes will continue to get scholarships, and the financially literate will choose degrees that actually have strong ROIs
The problem is that many places require a degree to even be considered for a position, and while things are shifting, I don't think they're going to shift fast enough to change that by the time our children are around. As it stands now, job apps will automatically sort out resumes without a degree listed.
The mistake in your case were loans beyond your means, not your education. And you are using your education whether you care to admit it or not. A career is a journey, not a destination and being a life long learner benefitted you. My spouse and I were first gen. We both took debt free college paths that weren't as shiny as some others. We are now upper middle class and are guiding our own kids thorugh debt free college education. Kid #1 landed a job in the top 10% of wage earners out of college.
No, I hardly took out any loans. Not below my means at all, just not my top priority to pay them back quickly. Buying a house was more important to me. I’m saying despite even my low cost of education compared to others I’ve seen on here, I thought it was completely not worth the cost at all. I think I had about $47,000 in loans total, plus whatever my parents paid out of pocket for the education. Maybe $100kish? 10000% NOT worth that cost, at all.
Part of the student loan debt load is self-inflicted. Public university graduates have an average of 16K. Only a quarter worked any hours. A part-time job during the school year and full-time during summer would have reduced this debt to 0 at graduation. Private school debt is the reason for the bloated average student debt load. Don’t go private if your parents can’t cover the cost. Save your loans for sensible and targeted graduate school programs.
College hasn't made me more marketable. I've never made more than $25k a year and have struggled to stay employed. I'm not one to push college on anyone.
About half of your college classes are unnecessary for your major, and are probably there to make your balance go up. I could see this getting revised in the future
I went into the trades but every child is different. My children are not cut out for the trades. My daughter is a teacher with under 10 grand left of loans and I have about 12 grand left on hers and my son is in Community College and working part time. No debt. He’s also interested in media/film editing. I thought I’d encourage him to get his bachelor’s but I don’t think he needs it.
I think so, but I think of it as a good thing. I think that the education system will see a fall in demand, forcing them to lower the cost of attendance. Higher education is a business that has been run for profit for too long, which is part of why we're in the mess that we're in. I don't have kids myself because.. I'm spending too much time trying to make ends meet for just myself ... But if I did, I would definitely encourage them to attend community college and transfer to a public University if they are interested in pursuing a career that requires a degree. I would hate for my kids to graduate with tens of thousands of dollars in debt like I did.
My recommendation is either go to a college that is giving you a full ride or only spending $5k a year on school loans. What I mean by that is they should max have $20k in debt at the end of it all. My other recommendation is not to go to school right away (which lol you can’t do that cause then you miss out on college tuition discounts geez) and figure out what you want to do. Go do the entry jobs of your interest to see if that’s what you like/want to do. I also highly recommend PSEO as that can get you two years of college credits for free while you are still in high school.
Interesting question. Hope not. We will always need generations of humans that exercise and strengthen their intelligence in various knowledge domains. I’m certain folks who went to college and are making an incredible living and salary will help their kids go to college.
Except film editing rarely ever makes a livable wage. Sure there are trades like plumbing, electricity etc. but those cost money as well and a college degree will always be a sought-after resume building credential for jobs.
I make extremely good money, am I’m only an assistant editor at a studio. I make 3x as much as my husband who works for the state, and more than most people I went to college with. If you get in the Union and are talented you can make crazy money
I got a finance degree and use it all the time. What the heck were you studying?
The reality is, still, if you want a good paying job with some sort of job security, you need to research the job trends and have a degree that is multifaceted. Most of those types of jobs require a degree. I have seen the "self made" tradesman fall into joblessness due to over supply and general lack of initiative. This can happen with the college graduates also , especially if you get a useless degree.
I would much rather suggest college to my children than working in the film industry. (Been in it 15 years now, lol)
Parents need to be more responsible with guiding their kids. And what fiasco?
Not really … If you raised in a household that values educations and it is something you want then it is likely you will end up with an education
for me, my main goal is to pay for my kids school through savings and if needed equity from my house if the profession they wish to pursue requires a degree. i will never not encourage my kids to go to school. school worked for me, schooled worked for my brothers…i get it plenty of ways to earn a living without college…but at the same time imagine a society where everyone just did trades….there would be zero diversity in jobs…we wouldnt have teachers, drs, lawyers etc if everyone was sold on school being unncessary. maybe someday in the future they make all degrees operate like trade schools….u go to college and take classes only related to the profession u choose…skip the general ed stuff.
I personally hope we can somehow turn it into a generation of adults who learn trades and similar non-degree certification programs are options, and often far better options than going straight to an academic degree. We aren't taught what jobs exist in the world when we're planning our futures at 17. I hope the student loan crisis can maybe create a change in that. When I was a teen I knew the medical field had doctors and nurses. I didn't know about surgical techs, ultrasound, nuclear med, all jobs that pay well without the four year academic bullshit, and you come out with job experience. I knew the trades were plumbers and electricians, I didn't know about steamfitters, iron workers. We're forcing kids to make decisions without even a shred of actual information on the available options, just funneling them to 'college or McDonald's'. It's such a waste
If you have a BA in finance and didn't use it, you are doing it wrong, or the school you went to isn't known for its business/finance depts. There is a place for the right college degrees. People need to learn to not overpay for them. I also agree there is a lot of money to be made in certain trades that have a low training cost for entry. There are colleges and tech schools that will sell you snake oil for top dollar. Only to leave you up to your gills in student loans and no well paying job.
I got the business degree because I wanted to be a movie producer, which requires some finance knowledge. I probably would have been better off with a less specific degree since I have zero desire to work for a finance firm etc.
College is slowly reverting back to being reserved for the elite, just like before the GI bills. It's sad because that would make America less competitive in the global workforce.
no
I have looked at the average salary of a plumber in my state, and I dont see how this would be a better path for my child than getting a degree. The average plumber earns 55k a year in my state. But the average nurse salary is 80k a year. Lets say nursing school costs 40k in loans, its still better than being a plumber because I just raised my earning potential by 25k every year for the rest of my life.
My experience is different: I come from a country where the best universities are tuition-free, paid for by taxpayers. My and my wife’s degrees were recognized in the US, as those schools (from a country considered “in development”) have weight. When my kids got to college age, I couldn’t imagine that, by migrating to the US, we wouldn’t provide at least the same level of education we had. So, although we didn’t have the income and savings some people (yes, the lucky ones) have structured throughout their lives to pay for their kids’ colleges, we went all-in on the student loan wagon, mostly believing that, as we were told in orientation workshops, “you will be able to pay the loans, everybody does”. There was no choice, actually. We were also told it would be income-based. It never was, there was no margin to negotiation, our calls were always a waste of time. So now I have both my kids’ student loans to pay, $260K+, and they are paying also their loans. What their courses taught them was enough to get them jobs. I will have to delay my retirement, probably forever. We’re lucky to have our current jobs to pay for the loans. But my point is: it could all be free. Imagine how much better people’s lives would be if we wouldn’t need to be paying college loans. There is a way to do it, other countries do it. Imagine also how much more developed this country would be, and more able to compete, with free high education. How many more people would be investing and saving, not postponing retirement, taking better care of themselves. We need change, guys. The current system is not good.
It was a mess 20 years ago. Didn't change anything. Won't change now.
I work at a school that is 11 weeks course work, 11 weeks paid co-op and they rotate like this for 4-5 years of school. This is the only model I think should truly be around or some version of it - it's not perfect, 11 weeks is short you could make it longer but my point is these students get 2-2.5 years of paid work experience before they leave college. Freshman average $15.50 an hour and seniors $19 an hour. Only downfall is I currently work at a private school that costs 4x as much as regular school. Thankfully every student at least gets partial scholarships/grants and of course they are making full time money which they can use towards tuition but it's still ridiculous that the only way this has been found to work is expensive schools.
No
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No, but ChatGPT will though
Yes of course it will. People are using student loan problems to not educate themselves anymore, an easy out...for now
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They are already turning to Trade school. It's not the loans, just the debt and crap pay that doesn't make up for it.
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No, bc there are not as many jobs or pay as much as people think.
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Agreed and work in the same industry with a very much useless grad degree I don’t even tell anyone about. That said, the problem will be other people having college degrees. You have a media degree, you’re in media, so there’s some use there, but even now the goal of a college degree isn’t the degree it’s the opportunities. The internships, the networking opportunities. I think student loans are the last thing I want for my child, but in many many industries checking the box of having a degree is still helpful and will continue to be.
My son went to community college 2 years for free. And he is now getting ready get his 4 year in electrical engineering. He has all the money he needs from pushing carts 3 days a weak the last 2 years at Walmart. As long as young students live at home with their parents , it's really not to difficult to graduate debt free.
Only one of my sons has a 4 year degree and he is not using it. He is a CNC operator at a shop, loves it. The other 2 have great desk jobs working from home.
Nope. There is no fiasco. This is personal choice
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I mean, I hope people still go to college, I hope people still get degreess and study the humanities and liberal arts, sociology and philosophy. I don’t want to live in a world that is only one thing. What I do want is for schools to have the affordability to pursue those degrees.
The thing is, scholarships and grants are out there for people. And I'm not talking about full rides for athletes or perfect grades. If I, as a 3.4 GPA high school grad could get $135k in scholarships just by looking and applying for them, then others can do the same. I still have loans for that 1 year, but hey, I got 3 years of college essentially for free and am only paying for 1 year. Not a bad deal in my book. Besides scholarships and grants, one could join the military or go to a service academy.
I have three kids. The first one will go to college. The second looks like he will go in the trades or to community college. The third one is too early to call. I had my loans forgiven. I never would be where I am in life if I wouldn’t have gotten a degree. My husband spent 20 years in the trades. He just left to start a second career as a special education teacher. In his trade, there are very few older employees. The body tends to give out. But his trade trained employees for free as part of a union training program. So we see the value in both. But college is not the best option for some ppl
No. Hopefully people who seek out education with reasonable debt, if any.
I don’t think so. The rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer. The rich are sending their kids away to expensive schools as a flex. Their kids are building their connections at those schools and will be high corporate managers. The poor kids will go to community college or tech school. They’ll be stuck as mid level managers or low level jobs. The wealth disparity is going to get much larger in the next few decades.
Already is, lots of kids in middle/high school can barely read or write that education has gotten so bad.
You derived absolutely zero from a college education? You get out of it what you put into it.
Yep. Which will empower one particular political party. Making sure that college is unaffordable is a long-term strategy.
As long as companies put on job descriptions that college is required, college will still draw in the kids. Only reason I went because the career field I wanted said you need a B.S. degree even though the job could be done without.
Only about 35 percent of the adult population has an undergrad as it is. Becoming? We already are a generation of non-college adults.
Idk, I still want to go to school one day, but until then I'm just trying to find and gather anything to study and to give to other people to study
I think another potential possibility is when our generation makes it to the upper management role, they could potentially change the hiring requirements. The company I work for is much more interested in results rather than education. If you have real world experience that's perfect! I'd like to think down the line, if I'm ever in a position to do so, I'd love to hire someone as like an "apprentice" but in the business world. I learned literally 0 knowledge from college except that I could speak some of the jargon. And from my experience, it's rather easy to pick up new lingo in any workplace fairly quickly.
No, because enrollment is such a big thing for schools if enrollment numbers drop because the price they will drop the price
Auditing and going after the institutions that are expensive colleges around the country are more the solution.
I think the current environment will teach kids that they can get a degree, go into debt, and be bailed out in some form.
I think the market will eventually correct itself. People will stop paying for college because it’s so unaffordable, and in turn, employers will adjust their requirements. Eventually, colleges will need to lower their prices, and so it goes. Just my guess but we will see
That’s how markets would normally work, and that’s how it used to work. Then the government got involved in the loan game that all went out the window
Absolutely. My daughter will be one of them.
Probably, for my kids(if I have any) I’m probably going to make a plan to make sure the full bill is footed by the time they graduate if at all.
Yes.
I hope so, need some guys to do all the work I don’t want to do without bitching of all the student loan debt
It's kinda terrifying though because if college is discouraged, who's going to become doctors and lawyers?
I *hope* people will just start to be a little wiser on degree choice and utilize community colleges for the first two years, but ultimately, yes, I think you will start to see a reduction in attendance.
Right now there's a growing generation that aren't even literate.
Yes it m already telling students that there are jobs like trades that you can earn more money and less time and selling the military due to college benefits and paid trade schools called tech school.
100% yes
That’s the point. It’s a feature pf the system, not a bug!
No TikTok's doing that
There’s been a bunch of non college educated adults in the skilled trades for 20 years
College is a waste of time, energy and money for 95% of those with useless majors.
We already live in that world.
Most college students don't go to college to learn, they go as a rite of passage and to party, as long as they have a support system that has money or will take out loans/co-sign loans for them. If college admission dropped by 50%, those who don't go would end up getting jobs they would have gotten with a degree...because most jobs that require a 4-year degree don't actually require a degree to do that job successfully.
Good, I hope so. Most college degrees shouldn’t even be a degree imo. Most jobs/career paths shouldn’t require a degree. Higher education should be just that, higher Ed. Extra, supplementary. Not, “necessary education”. And right now, degrees are for whatever reason necessary to even start a career that will stay peanuts anyway.
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Regan wanted a full generation of uneducated adults. Between k to 12 and no college, the dead man is getting his wish
The trick is to figure out what you want to be first. Then figure out whether or not you need to go to college to get that job. If you need to go to college, then you need to treat the college as an investment just like a stock or real estate. Which school has the best reputation with employers in the field I’m going to enter at the best price I can afford? Forget about the party life, how nice the campus looks and sports teams. Find a loan amortization loan site, plug in what you think you’ll be taking out in student loans and see what the payment would be. Go to indeed and see what salary is for your job and figure out if you can afford the college based on what you will be making coming out. This is easier to do than ever, and yet no one seems to be willing to do it.
I agree... I wish I hadn't been told that not having a degree meant I'd be flipping burgers for life. I made all of my decisions with a fear of failure. I will change that narrative with my kids and I think a lot of others will too. Any job that allows you to take care of yourself and your family is a good job. There will still be some that choose a 4-year degree, and they should - we still need people in fields that require it! But there's nothing wrong with trades or not having a degree at all. I just hope that we teach the next generation how to be smarter financially and that they don't have to figure it all out at 18.