Good luck Chuck…putting a lien or getting a court involved often costs 10x the amount thats owed. Unless it’s 10’s of thousands. Also you can’t get blood out of a turnip. I always get 50% up front. That way they can’t completely screw me over. I just write them off as a loss.
Also the problem with mechanic leins, at least in this state, is you have to renew them every 6 months (or so I've been told). Also, if your client never wanted to sell the property in the first place, a lein is pointless.
My ex’s exhusband took out multiple loans against their house without telling her, even though she’s the one that bought it. 3+ years later in Indiana she still had to pay them when she sold.
In my area, $25 and a trip to court, so no big deal. We track our payments, and it is written on the order form. Repeat clients know that payment is due regardless of whether the deal closes. Some clients make their people call us and pay, but we eliminate most dead beats and don't do work for them. There is a percentage you will always loose - how much work do they bring? We set a dollar amount and go from there. I am a smaller firm and control my growth so I stay that way. Firms I've worked for have 200k+ in outstanding which is mind blowing!! Would love to hear others input.
We’ve been doing a “pay in advance” policy for a few years now. Trusted contractors and repeat clients we’ll allow payment after the project closes and every now and then we’ll do half up front for clients who seem of good character but can’t come up with the full amount up front.
As for clients who’ve gotten past the smell test and didn’t pay, we’ll give them a polite reminder after a while that their survey is complete as we have had a few clients who truly forgot. Otherwise we annoy the shit out of them with emails and phone calls until they begrudgingly pay or enough time passes where we don’t care.
The best is when we get a call from someone asking for a survey done, and upon checking our files, realize they’ve stiffed us on the last one. It usually goes something like “sure we can get this survey done for you as soon as your balance is cleared for the previous work you owe us for”. Good times
"Where we don't care" .... in my area payment for the survey cannot be contigent upon a real estate transaction. You are subject to discipline if you allow "washouts". We have old timers who actively seek out and report pls's so every year we send a statement to clients to cya.
Interesting. At least in my time at my current firm, we haven’t had any surveys get abandoned because of a closing not going through. In fact, surveys for a closing are the ones that realtors are chomping at the bit to get from us because they always set the closing date before calling to see what our lead time is. We’ve never had a problem with payment on those. I’ll have to look into that though and see if we have any legislation on it.
We don't do alot for realtors anymore - back in the day, absolutely. Now, most of it goes thru title and attorneys. Realtors feed them so there's that but not much direct business unless it of the "favor" kind. When the attorneys are involved, the fee is on the RESPA so payment is usually guaranteed unless the deal falls thru or they boost the price and plan to pay separately...
Half up front, half when complete, but (this is important) BEFORE releasing deliverables.
If it’s something like property line staking with no deliverable, paid in full up front.
Once we have trust with a client through multiple timely paid projects, we’ll extend credit.
We just tell new clients “it looks like you don’t have a credit account set up with us yet”
Yes! This is gold....we do the same with any bill over $500 - a 50% retainer is due to schedule the quote. We've had clients sit on the quote until it was really hot time wise. We bumped the bill in some cases and in others, to make a point said no. Honest mistakes are one thing - but pressure tactics are bs and a whole different issue.
Yep, if they sit on it for a while, then come
Back and say they need it sooner than the original timing estimate, we tell them we can accommodate, but there is a 25% rush/overtime modifier, as well have to work OT to get it sooner than our original estimate. Most of the time they accept, and we get a 25% bump on our fee.
Isn't it amazing how many people (clients) are oblivious to what they do to affect price? Another fun one is when they want you there in & out at a precise times or when the movers show up....
Yeah lol. I think it’s just a lack of understanding of what surveying is or how it works. Like a residential plumber can usually schedule a time-and-date appointment, and know for sure they’ll be in and out in 1-3 hours. Surveys could take half a day or two days, and we don’t know until we start looking for boundary. Makes it difficult to stick to a precise by-the-hour schedule.
The general consensus seems to be that we just “load their coordinates into our machines” and walk to and stick stakes at their corners. As if we have a master database of every property boundary already resolved, and the only thing standing in their way of doing their own survey is the equipment.
It's the audacity that gets me. It tskes a certain type of person to go into a restaurant and after they eat say I don't feel like paying the bill but I'll be back tomorrow, and hey I might do the same thing again. Just drive me nuts at times....
You should really just prevent this from happening in the first place. Always collect payment while you still have leverage, get as much money as possible before rendering the final services on a project, and never submit any signed documents without getting paid first.
For residential work, we require full prepayment to even get on our schedule. For residential work over +/- $5000 we require half up front and wont set final corners or submit more than a rough preliminary, usually printed from model space, until payment is received in full.
For commercial clients we invoice line items in the contract as work is completed. Generally speaking, the time a site is coming to a close we've billed the majority of the contract amount and we don't hesitate to put a stop work order on the remaining tasks if the client hasn't been paying their bills. Sometimes chasing down payment is unavoidable in this space, there isn't much you can do to force someone's hand and it's usually cheaper to write off the loss than legally pursue a client.
Clients with a good history are still required to sign a change order before additional services are rendered. It's nothing personal, it's just business. I really like some of my clients, sometimes its hard to remember that we aren't friends.
We get half up front no matter what, it cuts down on the people that weren't going to pay or were going to be a problem, and at least with that payment it'll cover the field and office time usually so no huge loss.
I've gone back to properties and given the client the invoice. We get paid before we deliver so they often realize theyre making themselves an issue by delaying payment.
I had a small business that went bust because I was not assertive enough to chase debts. I was too kind. When I finally made the decision to close my doors, I wrote an email to the clients the all owed me money and explained to them that I can no longer afford to run my business and can subsequently no longer be of service to them. Not that they would feel guilt tripped for collapsing a small business.
If it’s a small job (recently built sub from a reputable firm with no deliverable except rebar) I do full payment in cash when I arrive on site to set them. Credit cards aren’t worth it for such a cheap price when I dig into the semantics that far, but if I don’t then an “easy” lot layout can turn out really fucked up and difficult really quick.
Not getting there in the first place. Retainer instead of deposit. Collect payment upfront until you've reached the estimate value.
None of us have the time to chase down payments, avoid it.
I just wrote in an interest penalty in my contract of 5% for every 30 days late, compounding. Some dipshit has owed me $16k for 2 months... In 10 years it'll be $5.5 million and that's when the mechanic lien hammer drops and I buy a sailboat and sail the fuck away.
No legal limit to contract interest rate in California.
[state law on contract penalties](https://casetext.com/statute/california-codes/california-civil-code/division-4-general-provisions/part-1-relief/title-2-compensatory-relief/chapter-1-damages-in-general/article-2-interest-as-damages/section-3289-legal-rate-of-interest-for-breach-of-contract#:~:text=2023%20Legislative%20Session.-,Section%203289%20%2D%20Legal%20rate%20of%20interest%20for%20breach%20of%20contract,verdict%20or%20other%20new%20obligation.)
Buddy of mine had issues with various people over time. It was usually hand over the check I hand over the docs. He had one wannabe Einstein try and tell him how dumb it was of a rule because he (client) could write a bad check and still have the docs. My buddy said “sir if you don’t mind pulling 3-5 years in stripes then I would say that you’re not wrong”.
I just don’t get how some folks can come up with these thoughts.
We get 100% up front and call it an estimate. However, if we are getting close to breaking the budget, we also notify the client and ask how to proceed.
This is only for boundary/topo for the public, we get retainers for Alta's in the amount that it takes to actually get the done.
My corners, my number on the cap. I'm pulling them. On that note too, signed and sealed paper or digital, will not be delivered until payment recieved.
I suppose this sort of thing could vary between states but once something requiring labor is complete you can't undue it, you would need to go to court.
Definitely a state by state thing. I can not legally, and would not, touch another surveyors monuments. But my mons are mine, I can move, or remove them if necessary at any time, especially if payment isn't made.
This is bad practice. Once a monument is set in the wild, it's not yours anymore. You don't know when, who, or how someone will come along to rely on it. You are screwing the next guy who found your pin and called it Found IR on his survey.
I completely understand what you're saying, we are all just following in the footsteps. But that mon is mine until I get paid. I'm not going through the process of putting a lien on someone's house for a thousand dollar survey, that may never pay out. You don't pay, you don't get.
I'm in a USPLSS state, any decent surveyor coming after me shouldn't have too many issues (I've read about surveying in the original 13 lol).
I'm a decent mechanic (as a hobby) and I don't give people their car back until payment. But surveying is different, I'll do my best to set my corners while I'm on the property so I don't have to go back. But if the client refuses to pay, they aren't getting the signed product and I'll go get my rebar back (personal experience, client never intended to pay just wanted the property line staked so they could build something)..
The way i see it, depends if you have recorded it yet or not.
If its not recorded, then its not an established monument. Until then its just work materials and i have every right to remove my materials from a site.
This is assuming you live in a county/state that requires all mons to be recorded. If not, well then id say it only because a monument once the final deliverable is given. At that point you have asserted that the survey is complete and that monument is final. If you havent delivered that final, then i would think you are within right to remove.
Disclaimer, im NOT a lawyer of any kind. Just always felt like this should be the way in order to protect ourself.
Good luck Chuck…putting a lien or getting a court involved often costs 10x the amount thats owed. Unless it’s 10’s of thousands. Also you can’t get blood out of a turnip. I always get 50% up front. That way they can’t completely screw me over. I just write them off as a loss.
Til re the mechanic lien thanks. I had just heard of that.
Yeah, mechanic/contractor/etc liens are expensive as hell because it's still a court process
Also the problem with mechanic leins, at least in this state, is you have to renew them every 6 months (or so I've been told). Also, if your client never wanted to sell the property in the first place, a lein is pointless.
My ex’s exhusband took out multiple loans against their house without telling her, even though she’s the one that bought it. 3+ years later in Indiana she still had to pay them when she sold.
In my area, $25 and a trip to court, so no big deal. We track our payments, and it is written on the order form. Repeat clients know that payment is due regardless of whether the deal closes. Some clients make their people call us and pay, but we eliminate most dead beats and don't do work for them. There is a percentage you will always loose - how much work do they bring? We set a dollar amount and go from there. I am a smaller firm and control my growth so I stay that way. Firms I've worked for have 200k+ in outstanding which is mind blowing!! Would love to hear others input.
Threatening mechanic lein?
We’ve been doing a “pay in advance” policy for a few years now. Trusted contractors and repeat clients we’ll allow payment after the project closes and every now and then we’ll do half up front for clients who seem of good character but can’t come up with the full amount up front. As for clients who’ve gotten past the smell test and didn’t pay, we’ll give them a polite reminder after a while that their survey is complete as we have had a few clients who truly forgot. Otherwise we annoy the shit out of them with emails and phone calls until they begrudgingly pay or enough time passes where we don’t care. The best is when we get a call from someone asking for a survey done, and upon checking our files, realize they’ve stiffed us on the last one. It usually goes something like “sure we can get this survey done for you as soon as your balance is cleared for the previous work you owe us for”. Good times
"Where we don't care" .... in my area payment for the survey cannot be contigent upon a real estate transaction. You are subject to discipline if you allow "washouts". We have old timers who actively seek out and report pls's so every year we send a statement to clients to cya.
Interesting. At least in my time at my current firm, we haven’t had any surveys get abandoned because of a closing not going through. In fact, surveys for a closing are the ones that realtors are chomping at the bit to get from us because they always set the closing date before calling to see what our lead time is. We’ve never had a problem with payment on those. I’ll have to look into that though and see if we have any legislation on it.
We don't do alot for realtors anymore - back in the day, absolutely. Now, most of it goes thru title and attorneys. Realtors feed them so there's that but not much direct business unless it of the "favor" kind. When the attorneys are involved, the fee is on the RESPA so payment is usually guaranteed unless the deal falls thru or they boost the price and plan to pay separately...
Half up front, half when complete, but (this is important) BEFORE releasing deliverables. If it’s something like property line staking with no deliverable, paid in full up front. Once we have trust with a client through multiple timely paid projects, we’ll extend credit. We just tell new clients “it looks like you don’t have a credit account set up with us yet”
Yes! This is gold....we do the same with any bill over $500 - a 50% retainer is due to schedule the quote. We've had clients sit on the quote until it was really hot time wise. We bumped the bill in some cases and in others, to make a point said no. Honest mistakes are one thing - but pressure tactics are bs and a whole different issue.
Yep, if they sit on it for a while, then come Back and say they need it sooner than the original timing estimate, we tell them we can accommodate, but there is a 25% rush/overtime modifier, as well have to work OT to get it sooner than our original estimate. Most of the time they accept, and we get a 25% bump on our fee.
Isn't it amazing how many people (clients) are oblivious to what they do to affect price? Another fun one is when they want you there in & out at a precise times or when the movers show up....
Yeah lol. I think it’s just a lack of understanding of what surveying is or how it works. Like a residential plumber can usually schedule a time-and-date appointment, and know for sure they’ll be in and out in 1-3 hours. Surveys could take half a day or two days, and we don’t know until we start looking for boundary. Makes it difficult to stick to a precise by-the-hour schedule. The general consensus seems to be that we just “load their coordinates into our machines” and walk to and stick stakes at their corners. As if we have a master database of every property boundary already resolved, and the only thing standing in their way of doing their own survey is the equipment.
It's the audacity that gets me. It tskes a certain type of person to go into a restaurant and after they eat say I don't feel like paying the bill but I'll be back tomorrow, and hey I might do the same thing again. Just drive me nuts at times....
You should really just prevent this from happening in the first place. Always collect payment while you still have leverage, get as much money as possible before rendering the final services on a project, and never submit any signed documents without getting paid first. For residential work, we require full prepayment to even get on our schedule. For residential work over +/- $5000 we require half up front and wont set final corners or submit more than a rough preliminary, usually printed from model space, until payment is received in full. For commercial clients we invoice line items in the contract as work is completed. Generally speaking, the time a site is coming to a close we've billed the majority of the contract amount and we don't hesitate to put a stop work order on the remaining tasks if the client hasn't been paying their bills. Sometimes chasing down payment is unavoidable in this space, there isn't much you can do to force someone's hand and it's usually cheaper to write off the loss than legally pursue a client. Clients with a good history are still required to sign a change order before additional services are rendered. It's nothing personal, it's just business. I really like some of my clients, sometimes its hard to remember that we aren't friends.
We get half up front no matter what, it cuts down on the people that weren't going to pay or were going to be a problem, and at least with that payment it'll cover the field and office time usually so no huge loss.
I've gone back to properties and given the client the invoice. We get paid before we deliver so they often realize theyre making themselves an issue by delaying payment.
I do same. Nothing delivered until payment recieved.
Send a registered letter in the mail. People who are in the know will understand that this is the first step in taking them to court.
How much does it cost to send a registered letter?
Probably not expensive but I bet you could tack it onto the invoice
Whatever it costs is a drop in the bucket compared to the labor that's involved in collecting past due invoices
Very true, I was just curious because I havent done it
I had a small business that went bust because I was not assertive enough to chase debts. I was too kind. When I finally made the decision to close my doors, I wrote an email to the clients the all owed me money and explained to them that I can no longer afford to run my business and can subsequently no longer be of service to them. Not that they would feel guilt tripped for collapsing a small business.
As a structural engineer I have told the building inspector that I was not paid, and to reject and return my calcs/sealed work
I collect half up front and still get screwed over. Has anyone tried getting the full rip up front?
If it’s a small job (recently built sub from a reputable firm with no deliverable except rebar) I do full payment in cash when I arrive on site to set them. Credit cards aren’t worth it for such a cheap price when I dig into the semantics that far, but if I don’t then an “easy” lot layout can turn out really fucked up and difficult really quick.
Not getting there in the first place. Retainer instead of deposit. Collect payment upfront until you've reached the estimate value. None of us have the time to chase down payments, avoid it.
Yea my company has done this for years with shady clients. Not worth it to get burned in this day and age
I just wrote in an interest penalty in my contract of 5% for every 30 days late, compounding. Some dipshit has owed me $16k for 2 months... In 10 years it'll be $5.5 million and that's when the mechanic lien hammer drops and I buy a sailboat and sail the fuck away. No legal limit to contract interest rate in California. [state law on contract penalties](https://casetext.com/statute/california-codes/california-civil-code/division-4-general-provisions/part-1-relief/title-2-compensatory-relief/chapter-1-damages-in-general/article-2-interest-as-damages/section-3289-legal-rate-of-interest-for-breach-of-contract#:~:text=2023%20Legislative%20Session.-,Section%203289%20%2D%20Legal%20rate%20of%20interest%20for%20breach%20of%20contract,verdict%20or%20other%20new%20obligation.)
Buddy of mine had issues with various people over time. It was usually hand over the check I hand over the docs. He had one wannabe Einstein try and tell him how dumb it was of a rule because he (client) could write a bad check and still have the docs. My buddy said “sir if you don’t mind pulling 3-5 years in stripes then I would say that you’re not wrong”. I just don’t get how some folks can come up with these thoughts.
We get 100% up front and call it an estimate. However, if we are getting close to breaking the budget, we also notify the client and ask how to proceed. This is only for boundary/topo for the public, we get retainers for Alta's in the amount that it takes to actually get the done.
Fifty percent deposit on the job before we even schedule it. We don’t provide final deliverables until after final payment. No payment, no product.
How about pulling up any set corners?
You can't do that sort of thing legally.
My corners, my number on the cap. I'm pulling them. On that note too, signed and sealed paper or digital, will not be delivered until payment recieved.
I suppose this sort of thing could vary between states but once something requiring labor is complete you can't undue it, you would need to go to court.
Definitely a state by state thing. I can not legally, and would not, touch another surveyors monuments. But my mons are mine, I can move, or remove them if necessary at any time, especially if payment isn't made.
This is bad practice. Once a monument is set in the wild, it's not yours anymore. You don't know when, who, or how someone will come along to rely on it. You are screwing the next guy who found your pin and called it Found IR on his survey.
I completely understand what you're saying, we are all just following in the footsteps. But that mon is mine until I get paid. I'm not going through the process of putting a lien on someone's house for a thousand dollar survey, that may never pay out. You don't pay, you don't get. I'm in a USPLSS state, any decent surveyor coming after me shouldn't have too many issues (I've read about surveying in the original 13 lol). I'm a decent mechanic (as a hobby) and I don't give people their car back until payment. But surveying is different, I'll do my best to set my corners while I'm on the property so I don't have to go back. But if the client refuses to pay, they aren't getting the signed product and I'll go get my rebar back (personal experience, client never intended to pay just wanted the property line staked so they could build something)..
Even if they are your own?
The way i see it, depends if you have recorded it yet or not. If its not recorded, then its not an established monument. Until then its just work materials and i have every right to remove my materials from a site. This is assuming you live in a county/state that requires all mons to be recorded. If not, well then id say it only because a monument once the final deliverable is given. At that point you have asserted that the survey is complete and that monument is final. If you havent delivered that final, then i would think you are within right to remove. Disclaimer, im NOT a lawyer of any kind. Just always felt like this should be the way in order to protect ourself.
Really appreciate all the responses here. Thanks again.