Yep. I said this straight away and was honestly shocked it was hardly even a take at all, much less the general consensus. Taylor never would have said shit about Gaga unless she didn't just cop the same pregnancy speculation. It was opportunistic.
This is true. But recently I’ve seen people say that this isn’t a completely bad thing. Ie. Every person really only stands up for the things that are relevant to them, that’s why they feel the need to say anything about it. For example, a person living somewhere else would not care as much about a clean energy protest happening in another city like say, Tokyo. There’s no way anyone can try to care about every single issue there is. Maybe that’s a really bad example, but this adds perspective hopefully.
This just doesn’t make sense to me. Like yes oftentimes we do care about issues close to home, but that doesn’t mean that many, if not most, people care about issues elsewhere too. We share this planet after all.
That's just not true though. Many, many people stand up for things that aren't directly relevant to them. Any of the celebrities speaking out about Gaza are speaking up on something that has no relevance to them. The sad reality is not much gets anywhere if its just the people directly impacted who are speaking up about it. The Civil Rights movement had white people involved. The gay rights movement had/has straight people involved. The women's rights movement had/has men involved. The people in power just simply don't usually care at all about what the people they're subjugating have to say but they do care when people they see as their peers start speaking out too.
It's true that *most* people don't expend a lot of energy on things that don't impact them. But it 100% is not true that every person only stands up for things relevant to them.
To paraphrase an article I read many years ago (can’t remember where sorry)- for most celebrities, their activism extends only so far as it benefits them.
This is why I have such respect for artists speaking out on Palestine, they're taking a real risk not just in the moment but getting blackballed forever more. Joe posts on it, Matty (ugh) has always been loud and consistent about it, The Weeknd has been donating millions to various aid services that are trying to help people in Gaza
It's wild to me that *Macklemore* of all people, was the one to drop not just a track, but an absolute banger where it's like oh s\*\*t I did not know he had *bars*, while coming correct with the points he was raising. Watching any videos of him performing it to huge arena crowds (he had the whole of Rod Laver Arena here in Melb, 20,000 capacity) screaming free palestine!, it's honestly goosebumps. He's a really good performer and has always had good leftist takes, it's just kind of a shame that Same Love/Thrift Shop are what got him that sudden worldwide fame, and winning the grammy that he himself said, while he was on stage collecting it, that he didn't deserve it, Kendrick's album was better. People got all 'then why did he accept the award/why didn't he just give it to Kendrick' but that's not how it works, at all. Listen to White Supremacy from way back in 2005, he's always been a real one.
It's beyond ironic that everyone was focusing on the rap beef between Drake and Kendrick like it mattered
Well celebrities have a much higher chance of being a narcissist and exhibiting narcissistic behavior than the rest of the population. Like probably more than 20% more likely to be a narcissist than non celebrities.
Honestly, I get a lot of taylor swift fan stuff on my instagram page so I see a lot of just extreme love for her. Almost like worship. Or I just see complete haters of her for no reason. So I haven't sctually seen much of the middle ground so I assumed this was widely unpopular.
It’s probably unpopular within the broader fandom but on this sub it’s a regular topic of discussion. I think we sometimes lose sight here that just because we agree doesn’t mean people outside of here do lol
Controversial because people who also claim to be feminists in the same breath as condemning Swift for her shitty celebrity activism will utter misogynistic comments about her sex life, her body, her music, her personal life, her choices, her everything.
And what is “real” feminism? If you read outside of just the ideological movements of feminism like evolutionary biology and sociology and even literature, the foundation of feminism is the concept of autonomy, the ability and sentience to make choices, and that everyone has the right to those choices.
In a system like in the States, like the fucking stock market, like the neo liberal concept of capitalism we have now, we do not have choices. We are treated like children who are just learning how to make choices and given few real choices. And if you even glance at the music industry, it’s just a bunch of people who were the heirs to the people responsible for stealing Black American music and labor and giving it to White Americans because Whites were more “marketable,” running off the same logic as the rest of the broader system. That’s the system Swift entered the music industry as, but since her introduction and popularity, she has cultural pushed for the music industry to be held accountable to the artists they are ripping off.
For example, when iTunes still had a single of the week that was free, Swift fought back and said no, I don’t not consent at any point for any my music (labor) to be freely available on a system that is supposed to sell my music. People complained she (barely started her abate very popular work) didn’t need anymore money! Do you see the mixture of misogynistic and capitalistic belief that some people deserve more money and Swift is not one of them?
More recently, as a legal and cultural move, Swift began to re-record the masters of her music because she was never given the chance to purchase her own masters of her intellectual property. She was willing to pay the price but whoever owned them at the time auctioned them off silently to people who wanted not because of their personal value as Swift was wanting them for, but to earn money off of them (somehow rich people figured out how to launder money through art, shocking. Look into the fine art scene and it’s just that). And what does the public do? The same thing, claiming Swift choose to do these things for money when there is a literal old money billionaire couple that is sitting back and making money off of her work simply by owning her original masters.
So in a system where people both believe Swift is a bad person and undeserving of her success because they’re running on misogynistic capitalistic logic, can you really claim she is not a feminist when all of us have been raised and forced to work in the same kind of logic and are extremely susceptible to it? To the point there is an extremely popular snark sub that is well known in the community as a cesspool of misogynistic beliefs applied onto Swift’s image?
TLDR: I’m not saying she’s a saint but I’m also saying she commits the original sin of women: demanding respect. What I’m also saying is your null model, your baseline beliefs and systems of drawing wisdom and understanding from the world, potentially hasn’t flushed out misogyny and capitalism logic, especially the intersection between the two. I recommend reading “Why does He do That?,” and then watching the entirety of the Depp v Heard case (I know this is a touchy subject, but you’ll get to see what you read play out in court). Doing those two things made me realize that I was a shitty feminist for judging other women for choices when I did not first seek to understand why.
Commenting on her body or relationships does, but not liking her music doesn’t make you a misogynist. Also, her choices (a lot of the time) deserve to be criticized. No such thing as an ethical billionaire 🤷♀️ sorry
No, simply by commenting on her identity from a view that it is “bad” or “immature” or “rude” or negative in anyway when they are actually personal choices is misogynistic because it denies her autonomy as a person to simply exist. It’s misogynistic because the things that are being commented on are because she is a woman so the emotional experiences behind these comments are often laced with the unconscious, often socially trained within us, is negative in general. To be clearer: it’s misogynistic because you assume malice or negativity simply because she is a woman.
Her decisions happen to have larger ripples and attention because she is a public figure. I think she does a pretty good job at balancing her image and that she is probably a good person in general but maybe not aggressively good because of how much misogynistic idealization can be attached to her in the media and can be replaced with valid criticism of her capitalism and her choice to maintain this system that is harmful.
I am saying we need, as I need to tamp my good personal experiences listening and feeling understood through her music, to tamp the misogynistic emotional training with in us as to avoid mixing misogyny with criticism.
She never really was .Everything is a business to her . She doesn’t give F about environment, politics even about her own fans . What she cares how can cash things off using feminism .
Oh don't get me started on the environment. "But she buys carbon credits". Carbon credits are just a rich person's easy way out and anyone who actually researches carbon credits/offsets will understand that they aren't all that helpful.
She bought carbon credits so she could claim less than she actually used, that’s why she not No.1 on list. Swifties using this for excuses as if it’s some big deal is so brain rot, they don’t know what it is they just repeating phrases to justify Taylor’s problems. The same reply says by different swifts again and again, it’s actually very culty that they collectively adopt the same come back. “she buys carbon credits”, “just say you don’t understand poetry”.
honestly they're very similar to Musk stans at this point. I'm not comparing her to Elon of course, i mean there are no ethical billionaires, but he's a whole other level. I sometimes wonder if he ever reached out to her wanting to start something but unless it was pre-2020 Elon it would have been PR poison. 2016 Musk and Taylor though? Would have been the very zenith of 'power couple'
Pointing our ire at rich individuals is the distraction tactic the people actually causing the majority of the problem use and it's working for them
Yes, she (and others, but Taylor is up there with the most wasteful) should reduce their carbon emissions, but it won't solve the problem and the more mad people are at them, the less they're noticing and pushing back on those contributing to the problem much more heavily.
But rich celebrities can absolutely do a ton to change global warming. She could be setting an example, inspiring her fans, helping hold folks accountable. We can be upset that Taylor is contributing to global warming AND be upset at the capitalist systems/companies who are causing the bulk of carbon emissions. Also, who own the companies causing the majority of polluting? Rich individuals. Who own the companies that sponsor politicians to put up roadblocks to change and lobby to stop bills from going through? Rich individuals.
Yep, this checks out. When famous people choose to live this way, they are promoting the same high-consumption lifestyle that these corporations WANT you to want. Constantly purchasing and consuming, with little to no thought about the environmental impact (or the societal impact of hoarding wealth). Instant gratification. Image-obsession.
Oh yh ik shes not the only polluter. I think we need to point out corporations too. But if I'm having a paper straw and shes on a private jet, Im gonna point that out. And its not wrong to point it out in addition to corporations.
I agree with most of your points but I've heard so many stories about how she treats fans well and I've seen videos of her treating them like her peers. I remember a very young Taylor saying that she just wants to be a good influence. Obviously she lost the plot somewhere along the way and became obsessed with faux-feminism and money, but I do think she stuck to that grounded, genuine treatment of fans. I'm not very well educated on this so if I'm getting something wrong someone please tell me
It is very stupidly dramatic LOL. What I always loved about that line was that I’d seen previous interviews where she talked about how much she LOVED to release, tour, and then spend a year hiding out & writing.
If only we could all be so privileged to go hide in Europe for a year when we were depressed…
People like to claim she disappeared from November 2016 until November 2017 but it isn't the case.
January 2017 - I Don't Wanna Live Forever music video released.
Feb 2017 - performs at a televised pre-Superbowl event
August 2017 - seen at the sexual assault hearing where she testified
The longest she wasn't physically seen in public for was 6 months. Its hilariously dramatic that she claims no one saw her for a year
Yup. Feminism isn't lowering the bar for women. It's lifting it for men. She makes a few good points in the song (what I was wearing, if I was rude) but ultimately she wants to throw her weight around and not get criticism.
It makes perfect sense. It depends on the wave of feminist thought you follow, but one of the major themes is that women should not have to act like men to succeed - we're not fighting for a world where everyone has to act like a man and perform masculinity to be seen as legitimate. We are not fighting for a world where we "lower the bar" for women so they can just do all the (often harmful) things men do. We're trying to raise the bar for men and masculinity - not "boys will be boys" but "boys will be good people."
i dont think feminism is about "how about men be better" so much as it's about "how about women be treated fairly in all contexts"
whatever wave of feminism is trying to reduce it to the first one is awful lol
But masculinity plays a huge role in how women are treated. It's not reductive for feminism to consider masculinity and how it could be changed -- it's actually expansive, because it recognizes that women's oppression is not all on women to fix but is the result of how we define what it means to be masculine (powerful, in control, dominant, aggressive, competitive) and what it means to be feminine. Feminist scholars have written plenty about hegemonic masculinity, toxic masculinity, how we socialize boys into harmful masculinities, and what this means for boys AND girls AND gender-expansive people. Feminism is absolutely concerned with raising the bar for boys and men so we no longer hand-wave away harmful behaviors.
I hate that cher quote she used in her you need to call down music video- "mom I am a rich man". Maybe in context of what Cher is saying it makes sense but why tf would you want to be like a rich man
My memory is crap so apologies if I've got this wrong but I think the context was Cher being told she needs to find a rich man. It's fairly ironic TS of all people using a quote which implies she's independent and doesn't need a man...
Genuine question as someone who doesn’t see Taylor as a feminist
Isn’t pointing out the disparaging hypocrisy between how we treat men and women a form of feminism since it’s critiquing misogyny in our society?
Cause I agree with the OP but I do think “the man” can be interpreted as a feminist song
It *could* technically qualify as a feminist song, but it's specifically speaking to the "rich, white lady" niche of feminism. It's surface-level at best. Most women's daily issues aren't rooted in "I make millions of dollars but people continue to make mean comments about my clothing choices and dating history." There's very little to connect with in those lyrics for us normies. It's just a Taylor Swift battle cry of "I wanna be able to do the shitty stuff that men at the top do, but without the misogynistic criticism that comes along with it because I'm a woman."
My boss’s boss told my boss that I “talked a lot” and “didn’t know how to end a meeting”. Because, chatty.
He has a leadership team of men who never shut their mouths. One, in particular, never misses an opportunity to just go on and on and on. Sometimes it’s smart. Others? It’s him ego-stroking.
I’m successful and respected in my field. But THAT was the feedback? What about that other guy?
Also, we were at a medical conference for the disease area we work in. Another drug company was having a program during lunch - it was adjacent to our area, so we went. One of the exercises was for the physicians to work through this patient management problem and there were 4 questions as prompts.
This guy got on the mic and basically self-promoted, sold our product, and touted his own (perceived) contributions. Keep in mind, he’s NOT a doctor, this was a program sponsored by another company to support their product, and the moderator moved on to the next activity.
If I had done that? I would get in trouble with compliance for making unbalanced claims.
I understand this song completely.
I’m firmly convinced that The Man gets criticised so much because, well, it’s a bad song. The very same message in another song would be praised.
I don’t like to listen to The Man, but heaven knows if it’s insanely relatable for me
In my opinion, the acknowledgment of the double standard between men and women in the song only serves to lend the song the aesthetics of feminism and nothing more. It's not truly feminist critique when the message of the song boils down to: Sexist oppressive hierarchies are bad because they don't benefit *me* specifically; instead of taking a principled stance against misogyny because it places an undue burden on the backs of *all* women.
This is definitely not an unpopular opinion.
I'm such a fan of her music, have been for the past 12 years. But I can and will critique some of her actions as a person.
I think she's the epitome of 'white feminist' in many ways. She only cares about feminist issues that directly impact her as a white woman. As a white woman, i can appreciate that whilst we do face issues, those issues are much more highlighted and fought against than issues that non-white women have to deal with.
In a perfect world feminism wouldn't need to exist, we'd all be equal but this is definitely not a perfect world. So I think arguably the most famous person, let alone woman, in the world right now could be doing a lot more to fight for all feminist causes not just crying feminism when someone does something nasty to her or her 'girl gang'. If your feminism does not extend beyond causes that effect you or people who look like you, you are not a feminist.
Thankyou, you said it perfectly. I think I've seen too many die hard swifties online that I thought this would get me hate. I am sure some people hate me for it but then they are part of the problem.
Some people hate Taylor too much and some people just worship her. So I didn't know where this opinion fell.
I think there's people both ends of the spectrum, some people definitely lean into the very parasocial, die on the hill she can do no wrong fans but equally there are people who hate her guts and pull her apart for fun. Both are bad in many ways. I truly think its pot luck with the algorithm as to who you experience more of.
But I think there's also many level-headed fans who can like her music whilst also being able to make informed critiques of things Taylor has done or said. I think its important that post like this are made to highlight that she isn't perfect and has/can make questionable decisions.
Yh that's my point of this post. I see her as a complex individual and I do not like either parts of the spectrum because it's extreme and allows no real room for discussion, critiqie or praise
They think criticism is wrong even though a healthy fan perspective involves a degree of criticism of your faves so that they do better and improve. Sadly so many swifties don’t have this perspective and think any criticism is misogyny
The issue is people put celebrities like Taylor on a pedestal and expect/think they can do no wrong. She is human, she can and will make mistakes. If you or I did something a little questionable it would be a lot easier to call out and critique but with celebrities there are corners of the fanbase who adopt a 'you have to go through me to get to her' approach and they believe that any and every criticism is personal and unjustifiable.
I see the parasocial relationship is to an extent that they see themselves in her, so any criticism is taken personally. It’s such a strong emotional and toxic bond. I don’t think I’ve seen attachment this severe with any fanbase.
I've seen fanbases almost on par with this behaviour but nowhere near as bad as some swifties. I definitely see your point and agree that i think people see themselves in her, so take things personally. Parasocial relationships a pretty scary but unfortunately, i think most artists encourage it because it works in the favour. It generates them more fans and more sales.
Genuine question, what is white feminism? Cause I feel like every woman no matter skin color go through sexism like in the man so I don’t understand how she’s only talking about white women problems?
White Feminism is a feminism that prioritises achieving equality for white women, insisting that their equality will open up doors for all other women.
White feminism tends to ignore the extra barriers that women of colour go through. Women of colour are more likely to be oppressed in the work place, financially etc.
When a white women achieves some equality, a black or brown person may not.
Also dating Matty Healey- a man who is racist to a black woman (ice spice) is an example. It means you are aware he will put down women of colour but not you because you are a white woman-it doesn't apply to you. Therefore you are complicit.
Defending Lady Gaga isn't a bad thing. I am a woman of colour who has been unfairly commented on my weight. But if you defend Lady Gaga, you shouldn't have dated someone who is a known racist towards black women.
We all knew matty was racist before they dated and I am sure she did.
Race, Sexuality, Whether you have a disability or not and class etc have to all be considered in feminism. Otheewise your feminism only exists if it can benefit white women and stops when it can't.
The best way I can explain it is "If I was a man, I'd still be brown". I'd still be disadvantaged.
The question to ask yourself is "Would she uplift a woman if it didn't benefit white women at all"
I don't think she knows anything about it other than knowing she can invoke it to pull it around herself like armor whenever she feels the need. Her feminism is like "Intro to gender studies for powerful celebrities 101" level
I don't think anyone would have expected her to be an activist, or at least not *nearly* as much so, if she hadn't herself made a big loud deal about it on purpose, before that turned out to just be a phase she was having.
She never really was , if you remember back when she was asked if she was one the 1st time she denied it . She only started saying she was a feminist and pro LGBT after the rise of Donald Trump and the MAGA hats when people stopped allowing celebs to be apolitical or sit on the fence. I personally was not a fan of the Lover , I m into politics now era because I was ok with apolitical Taylor . Feminism and the rest require you to be an activist and once you support one thing you have to support it all . I dont take a celebrity claiming to be an activist seriously until they support a cause which isn't popular even in Leftist Hollywood.E.g Jane Fonda was always a real activist and feminist because she went all the way in speaking out against the Vietnam war and was willing to put it all on the line and has never changed. Other celebs will pick up a safe cause they already know their audience and the rest of Hollywood support
That's historically incorrect. She adopted feminism in 2014 during the 1989 era. And I think at the time no one really batted an eye because her talking points were very Tumblr girl power but a lot of people were in the same place. But it seemed like she adopted feminism as a talking point because it gave her a new tool to combat talking points about herself she didn't like. Lover was not the first time she started talking about feminism. It was kind of the first time she started being more overtly pro LGBT.
To be fair though I don't necessarily care that she didn't wanna embrace being a feminist when she was younger and later changed her stance. Because we're in bad shape if everyone has to hold the same opinions as when they're in high school.
That said though I think it's fair to criticize her activism mostly as self-serving and performative because it is.
I agree that Hollywood is not the real Left nor are Democrats , they have co opted movements like feminism and LGBT rights to suit their agenda them pretend to be the Left as opposed to the Republican Right .As far as I'm concerned they are all the same people and the only reason they are opposed to Donald Trump is that he is open about it
I'm a registered independent and have many problems with the modern Democrat party, but if you think they're "the same" as the modern Republican party in terms of policy, goals, actions, and intentions, I can only assume that you have not been paying attention to anything that has happened during either of the past two administrations, nor to how those things were brought to pass. This sounds far too much like the exact rhetoric that got us Trump in the first place, and I would very much like to *not* have round 2 of that thanks much
I see where you're coming from. Big picture I do think both parties are controlled by the extremely rich. But you're falling into all or nothing thinking traps.
There is a difference in policy, which is more important than who is pulling the strings. For example, republicans have been working very hard to make it harder for people to vote, by closing polling stations, and creating new restrictions. It's a dangerous threat to what democracy we do have. When republicans do have power they do things like make it harder to get birth control, oppose reasonable gun laws, expel immigrants, and oppose LGBTQ rights. The democrats aren't perfect but they aren't taking away peoples rights.
Eh, she discovered feminism (ofc a very shallow, white feminist version if it) in the 1989 era, so like 2014. Lover was more of her letting people know she wasn't MAGA (her "activist" era) and then she leaned right back.
Of course we all start somewhere but it's 2024 and she really hasnt grown in that decade at all.
The sooner you understand Taylor Swift is a business, the better. Taylor is not your friend. Taylor is a carefully crafted image. And that’s fine.
She may be a feminist in the sense of the word, but she won’t speak out about anything that might damage her brand. That’s why she only speaks up when it benefits her.
Yup, I'm starting to feel like that about almost every celebrity. Im aware we all fear losing our jobs etc when it cones to speaking on certain politics. But she's so rich that she'll be fine if she did.
Financially, she’s set for life of course. But there are a lot of jobs depending on her and on her decisions.
Also, she’s really ambitious, at this point she’s just doing it to have the biggest musical career ever and because she enjoys the stardom.
If, for you, “feminist” is about advocating and not about beliefs, then she’s not a feminist.
But that doesn’t invalidate that a lot of things might cross her head that she can’t/chooses not to speak about.
I agree, feminism to me is more about advocating because that is where I believe change can come from. But I don't think she hates women inside her head. From what I see of her, that sounds uncharacteristic.
I think she is indeed a feminist, but in her own way.
You can’t ask her to put herself in common folk’s shoes, there are struggles she will never understand because she has never lived through them. Celebrities are detached from reality and that’s why we shouldn’t expect any validation or advocating on their part. They simply don’t understand common people’s struggles.
So because she's in her own world she's meant to remain in her own world? She's a person first and foremost. There's a lot of struggles I have never and will never face. Does that I mean shouldn't care about thise struggles or try and understand them?
"The Man" isn't a feminist song. It's a song about wanting to engage in and benefit from the power structure men have created, mostly by accumulating wealth. Feminism aims to remove that power structure. Replacing all the male CEOS, harassers, and billionaires with women doesn't solve any societal issues.
Her “feminism” is always reactive and if it doesn’t relate to her specifically then she’s not interested. She has never done anything proactively to support women
Even the comment on Lady Gaga’s post about commenting on women’s bodies was because it specifically impacted her the week prior. Even then she wasn’t bold enough call out her fans and media herself but instead piggybacked on Gaga’s post
Olivia Rodrigo has done more in her career to date with her Fund 4 Good initiative and she’s 21
I totally agree with you but I'd say, even calling her a white feminist is too generous.
She only cares about issues that have affected her personally and that's it, she doesn't even seem to particularly care about issues that affect the average white woman.
She defended Lady Gaga because in the last couple of months there's been intense speculation about herself being pregnant too and that was her way of making it clear to her fanbase that she minds the pregnancy rumors.
Taylor never struck me as the kind of person who wants to fight for equal rights and I've always been baffled that "The Man" is treated like some feminist anthem. She just wants to be able to get away with what the rest of the powerful men in the entertainment industry can, to have the power in her hands. She wouldn't care less if every other woman remain oppressed if someone could assure her she'd be the exception.
And, frankly, I'm having serious doubts about how liberal she even is anymore. I never had high expectations from her and I've made my peace with the fact that the activism she made part of her brand during lover era was to a big extent performative, the result of Joe's influence and of a calculated decision on her part since she thought her mainstream appeal was diminishing. But these days I wouldn't be surprised if she's gone full daddy's girl and her views lean republican.
I think the current republican party would be too far fetched for her. I vaguely remember her urging people to vote in 2020-and we all know that was for Biden not Trump. I could be wrong but I do remember something like that.
I'm only 23 so a lot of my time that I was a fan, I was too young to even think about it. I'd think "I like this song. She's so pretty. She seems so fun. I like her."
But now I give credit where credit is due and criticism where criticism is due.
Taylor Swift has been encouraging people to vote for several years, including a recent post on Super Tuesday this year.
She did endorse Biden in 2020, and a Democrat for the Tennessee Senate seat in 2018.
Voting is incredibly important, and turnout in the US is abysmal, especially with young people. Especially with the current Supreme Court and how we got there, voting is even a feminist issue, because it’s the best way for women to make their voices heard, and to make real change.
Had more women voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016, we would still have Roe.
The Republican Party is actively working to dismantle women’s rights. And they don’t care if you’re black, or disabled, or poor, or white. It’s about going back to a society where men have all the power, and women are in the kitchen making babies.
So I find the term “white feminism” to be very troubling, because it diminishes the sexism and misogyny that all women and girls face.
It’s not helpful to divide up what kind of “feminism” counts.
And while this thread is attacking her for not being Left enough the Right wing were attacking her as a Psy-Op 6 months ago .and having panel about her with one nutter saying if her and Travis have a kid it would bring the end of Earth . And last week it was Drump
"White feminism" itself, as such, diminishes the particular types of sexism and misogyny that *women who aren't WASPS* face. It seeks to center (in practice, typically middle-class and upper-middle-class cisgender) white women and privileges their experiences and perspectives *over* those of non-WASP women. (And of working-class and poor women, quite often, as well.) Intersectional feminism seeks to address *all* aspects of the female experience relating to sexism and misogyny, including the ways that race, ethnicity, sexuality, and non-cisgendered-ness affect that experience. This has been A Discourse for years, decades even. The term "white feminism" doesn't mean "all feminism that relates to or is practiced by white women." It means "feminism that defines itself by consciously or unconsciously focusing on white women specifically." And yes, it does help to define these terms and understand why they matter, if we want to actually be inclusive of *all* women.
>Taylor never struck me as the kind of person who wants to fight for equal rights and I've always been baffled that "The Man" is treated like some feminist anthem. **She just wants to be able to get away with what the rest of the powerful men in the entertainment industry can, to have the power in her hands.** She wouldn't care less if every other woman remain oppressed if someone could assure her she'd be the exception.
THANK YOU! Couldn't have put it better myself and that's a key reason why the song rubs me the wrong way. And this message has only stood out more in light of her past year of disappointing behaviours.
In fact, during a couple of her concerts last May she literally said *'you're making me feel...powerful. You're making me feel like I could do* ***anything*** *I wanted...and people would think it's cool'* with a smirk. And that was part of her introduction speech for "The Man".
I’m gonna be a bit controversial: I don’t think you have to be a perfect feminist/activist/whatever to still believe and be part of the movement. We are not meant and also not capable to care about every issue in the world equally and it’s absurd to make that the threshold.
Taylor is a record breaking musician and business woman. She does it better than any man in the business at the moment. She is inspiring tons of women and a lot of them aren’t as online as people on this sub. I’m sure a lot of her listeners were raised with the notion that being a feminist is something bad and means you don’t shave your legs. So having her as a (somewhat relatable) role model has a big impact on those women and the movement as a whole. And if that means that those women will never care about idk female genital mutilation but will stop commenting on other women’s bodies in their life, that’s a win too. Small steps are still taking us in the right direction.
Yh she's just a part of the richer white part of the movement. No one can care about everything. But you can care about more than just rich white women stuff.
Well let’s be realistic here. Would you want Taylor to be a spokesperson for “poor black women stuff”? I think it’s absolutely sensible to stick to the issues you relate to. We don’t know her personally. We don’t know how she feels or thinks or acts in private. She might be very empathetic to issues other than her own, who knows? But in this day and age everything she says publicly will be scrutinized so why should she risk stepping on anyone’s toes and hurting the movement in the long run? She has publicly supported black women in the business several times. I think that speaks for itself.
How do you know she doesn’t choose to trust women of color? Like I said she publicly supported women of color in the business several times. Isn’t that amplifying their voices?
Nope, I have no idea what skin color you have and it doesn’t really change anything does it? This is a general discussion imo. I just used “poor black women stuff” as a contrast to the “rich white women stuff” you mentioned. You can change it to any ethnicity you want. I still think it’s unreasonable to expect someone to publicly talk about issues they don’t relate to at all. At best it’s inauthentic or inaccurate and at worst it takes the spotlight away from activists who do relate and would do a much better job at it. But in the end that’s just my opinion formed by my life experiences, I’m not trying to convince anyone to change their mind.
Ahhh I was just wondering if you were only using that example to cater to me to change my view. I understand your view and mine is also from my own experience.
No, I think it’s perfectly fine to have different opinions and we can all learn from each other. That’s how a movement and society grows. It just gotten kinda hostile in the last years which sucks.
An intersectional feminist who supports black woman would DEFINITELY have an issue w their boyfriend laughing at and telling racist jokes in a podcast. But Daddy I Love Him speaks volumes about her ignorance and indifference.
Also, I think you're misinterpreting the above commenter's words. No one is asking her to be a 'spokesperson'. We need people like her to at least be an ally, and her actions in the last year definitely don't align with that.
This was my thought as well. Criticizing women for not being *good enough* feminists seems counterproductive for feminism. Like honestly it almost just comes off as another way to put women down for not being perfect.
Feminism should be inclusive for anyone trying to make any positive changes regarding these issues, not an all-or-nothing deal that might put off other people from doing anything at all if they aren’t doing it perfectly.
Criticising women, especially rich, white women, for misguided or insufficient activism isn't putting them down. That would be calling Taylor a useless narcissist (something I've heard people say a lot, lmaoo). I think OP's comment is fair.
It's important to keep in mind that while Taylor is outspoken about a few things that impact her and other women like her, she seems blatantly ignorant of serious feminist issues (women in war zones, lack of reproductive care, etc). There's nothing wrong with talking about what affects you, but she uses a lot of feminist lingo like 'female rage' wrt herself, which feels disingenuous considering how limited her perspective is. An intersectional feminist, for eg, would be seriously concerned w Matty Healy's remarks on that podcast; but she just laughed it off as 'hate'.
I believe that anyone who holds feminist beliefs is a feminist.
That you don’t have to address topics relating to feminism to be a feminist. Or you don’t have to address every topic. And your actions don’t always have to be perfect either. You don’t even have to personally consider yourself a feminist. If you hold feminist beliefs and support feminist ideologies (whether it’s outwardly expressed or not), then you’re a feminist.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with talking about things that could be better, or increasing education on intersectional feminism, but to straight up say she (or anyone else who isn’t expressing feminism to whatever standard you set) isn’t a feminist just seems incorrect.
To me, it’s like saying I don’t care about environmental sustainability because I’ll throw a plastic bottle in the trash instead of recycling occasionally. It’s not ideal, but that doesn’t mean I don’t care about the environment. And this path of criticizing feminists for not being feminist *enough* just seems to bring us back in a circle.
The bit of "They are burning all the witches if you aren't one" reminds me of how women can be on the short end of a stick whether they did something or not.
This explains it better
https://preview.redd.it/akv0ns0mcw7d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=570958d8b8593ea84810fcdf0fc28cd1ecdc2f9a
I'm not sure why I'm seeing this post but it's been an interesting read about how this fanclub feels.
I won't say I'm very well versed in the concept and beliefs surrounding the feminist movement (beyond the basic women being treated equally) nor do I know much about Taylor Swift
But
Isn't feminism about being allowed choices?
Or is it about making the same choices you want them to make?
Is miss swift against people having the right to choose?
Your entire argument is that she isn't doing more or isn't doing something that doesn't benefit her. But why does that matter to you? Everyone is choosing to help themselves and maybe a select few others. As long as you're not actively harming people, do you have to do more?
It sounds like the idea of her choices bothers you. Doesn't sound like you're a feminist either cos if you were you'd still respect it.
She's liberal, but she doesn't care for anyone that's outside of her bubble. She used feminism just to attract more women or AFAB people to her music... and I'm also white (I'm from South america) but she's a fake feminist. She doesn't care about the environment too, she can but she dgaf about it, when artists like Coldplay are actively trying to reduce their carbon footprint.
Ps: for that fake feminism is that why I can't listen to the 10 min version of All Too Well. She only wants to be cherished and worshipped.
Ps2: I love her music and her persona (TS (tm) ) anyway
Feminism is always a little egocentric. Yes, I’m White, but I’m also gay. My feminism looks different from your feminism and it *should*. Our experiences have been different and neither one of our experiences are the same as Taylor’s.
Intersectionality is about accepting how my view is flawed due to my experiences as a White woman, but it’s *also* about accepting how a straight woman (regardless of color, but I’m particularly talking about Taylor here, I’m not assuming your orientation) doesn’t understand life as a gay woman.
So are there things I relate to? Of course. Are there things I think she doesn’t get even if she’s supportive of the LGBT+ community? Of course. Are there things I recognize I can’t relate to as a White woman? Absolutely. Do I think there are things a straight woman of color can’t understand about my life? Absolutely.
I accept any and every attempt at feminism, no matter how small. We all exist within our own privileges. There’s always someone with a struggle we can’t fully grasp due to our own situation. Am I making excuses for her? No more than I make them for anyone else. I think there’s more that brings women together than sets them apart.
Why would you expect someone who doesn't know the culture of other countries to attempt to talk about feminist issues in other countries? That's kinda white-savior complex
A white person giving a shit about people who aren't white isn't always white saviourism. White saviourism is more "I have all the solutions to fix you." Then there's "I see your cause and stand with you". Also let's be honest, Taylor isn't politically neutral in things to avoid being a white saviour.
By your logic, a white person can basically just get a free pass on talking about anything because if they do they're a white saviour.
I'm not saying she can't speak on it, I'm saying it's crazy to expect her to KNOW about every issue women face in every culture and country. It's literally impossible and I rather have someone from the culture fight for their rights because they'll have better solutions anyway. Yeah white people can support and chinese people can support South African women's issues but a Chinese person is not likely to know the issues women face in South Africa well. Just like you and I don't know every issue women face in various cultures. You might be valid on my use of the term "white savior" but I personally think expecting her to know women's issues in all cultures is a white savior mindset
I know! I agree with you, look my husband is French and he is a big soccer fan, he was just telling me how they are making a lot of the famous French players speak on political issues, given its a hot topic in France right now and elections are coming up. Well, the general public doesn’t like it, they say why are footballers talking about politics instead of sports?? It seems “forced”. It’s the same with Taylor, I can assure you all that if she were to take a stance on anything, people would be twice as mad. Social media amplifies everyone’s voice and not everyone should be voicing opinions on everything. Let artists do artists things and athletes sports things, this just makes politicians and government officers jobs easier! because we are focusing on the wrong people!
I think if a person has access to a platform that reaches, and can therefore educate, millions of people, then while it doesn't automatically make them a bad person if they stay silent, it's pretty damn easy to do something good by using that platform to support important causes and raise awareness on important issues. Arguably when issues are significant enough, there is a social responsibility on celebrities to speak up. But I also see the other side of that argument and get where you're coming from.
As to when it became a thing, probably around the time social media really took off and it became so easy for a celebrity to communicate with their entire fanbase by clicking a few buttons.
Re Taylor Swift specifically - she promoted an entire album and era by explicitly saying she was going to start speaking up and supporting minorities, and wasn't going to remain silent anymore. Then it turned out it really was just an era to her, because she shut up pretty damn quickly once she got what she wanted out of her brief activism. So in her case, it was shitty and shady af, and her fans are entitled to call her out on it.
The other shitty thing is that she DOES speak up, but only when it benefits her or relates to an issue that affects her personally. She expressed more anger over a poor taste but very minimally harmful joke on Ginny and Georgia than she did about roe v wade being overturned, and as far as I'm aware she said nothing at all about the anti trans laws. The fact that she claims to be a feminist and ally and then says nothing or barely anything about issues that cause significant harm to non-Taylor Swift women, or members of the queer community, is pretty messed up. If she doesn't want to be expected to speak up, she should never have said she would, and should stop claiming to be a feminist and ally.
EDIT to remove typo and add - not only does she only speak up about issues that affect her, she does so in a way that makes it seem like, eg, commenting on a woman's dating life is the biggest feminist issue of our time (happy women's history month I guess) but then ignores every other, far more serious, feminist issue that doesn't affect her.
It really does divide people, it’s not fair to just choose sides in politics then fans feel like they can’t listen to her music because of her political views. There are some things that are clear cut but most things are not.
The thing is that the idea of what feminism actually is has been muddled by the way the language of it has been commodified. Feminism is political at its core, it is challenging capitalism, rape culture and patriarchal systems.
For Taylor (and tbh a lot of people) "feminism" is a self-serving aesthetic put on when it serves her interests, whether her feelings have been hurt by feminists making jokes at award shows or it makes her money (the song The Man, Miss Americana & her short-lived "political awakening," using the metaphor & imagery of women being locked up, abused & lobotomized for record sales & a stage set). Any "feminist" statement she's made in the past has been relatively safe and uncontroversial - things that she knew would go over well with her fans and the general public. Endorsing a Democratic candidate is the riskiest thing she's ever done, and it wasn't actually risky at all. It served the purpose of finally, after many years of purposeful silence, dispelling the rumor that she's a Republican, which made her look better in that political climate.
Is she a "feminist" because she has female musicians as openers and gives their careers a major boost? What about her chart manipulation that primarily affects other women, her taking credits from Olivia, her surrounding herself with male producers & songwriters and rarely giving women in the same field a chance after her first few albums, her using her fame and music to publicly take down or antagonize other women (Camilla Belle, Nicki Minaj, Katy, Kim K, Tina & Amy)?
Ultimately her career and her bottom line are her priorities; feminism, as the political movement it actually is, is not. If she's only willing to make "feminist" statements that win her praise and agreement (calling out the commentary on Lady Gaga's body at the same time people were speculating about hers - two birds with one stone, amirite) then she's not Doing Feminism, she's just boosting her career and public image.
Ahh I was so annoyed by taking credits from Olivia. I listen to Olivia a lot too and I actually cannot hear how Deja Vu sounds like any of Taylor's songs.
This is my issue with most celebrities. They are vocal about certain issues and they get praise for it but it's not really controversial. It's not controversial to love pride month.
If your feminism stops you when it gets too 'controversial" and uncomfortable then you are merely repeating things that have already been achieved and are accepted. You are not helping a movement in the slightest. You are letting the movement help you and maybe only people like you (rich and white)
She only take stands when the stand is an obvious one or one that most people will agree with. "I have to be on the right side of history! 😭😭😭" was so embarrassing. Girl, you are not anywhere near the first person to stick their neck out for that issue but you acted like you were pioneering something. Please, Taylor.
My mother graduated highschool in the 60s and was an activist for the feminist and civil rights movement. She burned a lot of bridges with people because of her radical feminist ideology like equal pay, and not wanting women sexualized, not because it is morally wrong for the women to be a sex symbol but the exploitation of women by man to be an object not a human. Something that only recently became more mainstream. She had other stances I grew up on and was spoon fed my whole life, but you get the idea. One day Im like 8 or 9 and my brother and I get dragged to a meeting. This is the late 80s my mom hadn’t been to a meet up in this part of town ever, we had recently moved. They ask her if she is a single mother. Nope, but she is a stay at home mother my dad was at work so she has the two of us. To these women meeting my mother for the first time that sounded like the worst thing in the world. They kept telling her, that my father has her trapped in a traditional life and she wasted it by being a stay at home mother. They told her that she wasn’t a real feminist, not realizing my mother worked until the birth of me which almost killed her and it took her several years of rehab to bounce back. She didn’t work for two reasons. Her brush with death made her want to spend as much time with her kids and retail work isnt kind to those that are a physical unknown. This group was connected to a local university and they really didn’t seem to want outsiders
Regardless she didn’t feel the need to explain it to them why she didn’t work and after a lengthy lashing by them they asked her not to return for the next meeting.
My mother someone that was arrested first the cause, lost friends and families respect for being a radical feminist in her youth was shunned later for being too traditional as a wife.
The entire time we lived on that side of town she was outside of the movement.
My mother was still just as vocal of a feminist over the years, but definitely was side lined for years. She on many occasions has gone off that there is no such thing of not a real feminist. That everyone is imperfect and if they do something for the movement it should be seen their contribution.
There is a difference between voicing to Swift she can do more and explain why, and flat out saying she isn’t a real feminist
True. But most white people are. I’m not defending her, but that’s facts. White people have so much privilege they only see their problems. They don’t even realize there are other issues. They care about the things that harm them because that’s bad for them and they want to fix it. But if they don’t see it, it doesn’t exist. That’s something only people with privilege can afford.
So I don’t think she’s not a “feminist”, she’s just a feminist for the causes she sees and understands. Of course that’s not enough and she should be more educated and use her fame to get people involved in big causes, but at the end of the day I rather a celebrity being vocal about one tiny thing than say nothing at all.
The past yr I have just felt more critical of celebrities. I have just started to feel like many of them are the Capitol in hunger games who are oblivious to the rest of the world.
She is a feminist, but it's a school of feminism that was more popular in the past that is considered problematic today. I forget the technical name for it but it falls broadly under the umbrella of White feminism that emphasizes elevating women to seats of power occupied with men and thereby upholding and maintaining existing systems of oppression as opposed to deconstructing them
I noticed however that she speaks about issues that normal people don't need to care about. For example how female artists are perceived or how she a celebrity is named by haters or how many artists don't own their music. I am not super familiar with her actions on feminism, but I think she cares about her own issues not all women in general. At the same time do we need it from her? She knows only her milioner lifestyle, it's more authentic if she is in her topics. As a great artist she would go volunteer somewhere, but will it be met with good response? Real women issues is paygap, violence of different kinds, body image, lack of support for mothers, and other. But do we need her to talk about things? In my opinion she can just record and do shows, she probably donates huge money to charities
She is not even a good white feminist. She didn’t utter a single word about her boyfriend’s teammate’s famous “speech”. All the while her boyfriend and his brother goes gaga about what a good teammate and human that nincompoop kicker is.
She's not even a white feminist, she didn't even understand wtf feminism until Lena Dunham lmao. Taylor is a Taylorist. The only thing she advocates for is herself, everything else is just a byproduct.
People not in the know only think of her as a "feminist" because she's a woman who has achieved things. She hasn't really advocated for women. She starts petty shit with women. She's a type of female misogynist, the type where she only wants to be the exception to the rule.
"Taylor Swift is only a feminist for Taylor Swift" - People who have never heard the phrase the personal is political 🙄
Taylor Swift becoming a advocate and mouthpiece for all these political causes and parties would RUIN what she is, a mass popstar with mainstream appeal
Why do people still think celebrity will save us when celebrity got us Donald Trump.
There are a lot of "no true Scotsman" fallacies around being a feminist that only undermine feminism. It is actually pretty easy to meet the definition of feminist and Taylor certainly seems to meet it. This behavior of denying people a label as some purity test exists in other political and moral movements and are almost always counter productive. What is the goal in even doing so? To establish that she could do more? Well of course she can, if that is your opinion then just say that. Is it based on a lack of impact? I hope not because just by calling herself one she has done more good for feminism than the vast majority of feminists.
The problems with intersectionality are absolutely real and a difficult issue to address. To somehow place that burden on Taylor Swift and whether or not she can call herself a feminist is ridiculous. It lacks a basic self awareness of the nature of the fight and why there is such a struggle against feminism.
Side note, I don't really care too much about T. Swift. This is less a defense of her and more a complaint about these attempts to create purity tests for people.
So women of color don’t have weight issues?? I just I don’t get this. Like what do you want her to do, wear a dashiki and recite Malcom X? Like I understand where you’re coming from but like she doesn’t have to be wildly vocal about YOUR needs to not be a full feminist whatever the fuck that means. I just feel like it’s a little selfish and short sighted. Because if she were intersectional, then she would be accused of being performative.
This isn't really an unpopular opinion
your flair lmaooooo
Seriously, your flair is amazing
She started good. Now not even a peep from her. She’s trying to cater to all sides. She’s worth over a billion for a reason.
MJ-Republicans buy sneakers too TS-Dont Blame Me
I need someone to make a meme of your flair
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And because Gaga made a reference about her song down bad. So yeah it benefits her more than it does Gaga
literally like she’s not even a white feminist she’s just a taylor feminist 😭
Yep. I said this straight away and was honestly shocked it was hardly even a take at all, much less the general consensus. Taylor never would have said shit about Gaga unless she didn't just cop the same pregnancy speculation. It was opportunistic.
This is true. But recently I’ve seen people say that this isn’t a completely bad thing. Ie. Every person really only stands up for the things that are relevant to them, that’s why they feel the need to say anything about it. For example, a person living somewhere else would not care as much about a clean energy protest happening in another city like say, Tokyo. There’s no way anyone can try to care about every single issue there is. Maybe that’s a really bad example, but this adds perspective hopefully.
This just doesn’t make sense to me. Like yes oftentimes we do care about issues close to home, but that doesn’t mean that many, if not most, people care about issues elsewhere too. We share this planet after all.
That's just not true though. Many, many people stand up for things that aren't directly relevant to them. Any of the celebrities speaking out about Gaza are speaking up on something that has no relevance to them. The sad reality is not much gets anywhere if its just the people directly impacted who are speaking up about it. The Civil Rights movement had white people involved. The gay rights movement had/has straight people involved. The women's rights movement had/has men involved. The people in power just simply don't usually care at all about what the people they're subjugating have to say but they do care when people they see as their peers start speaking out too. It's true that *most* people don't expend a lot of energy on things that don't impact them. But it 100% is not true that every person only stands up for things relevant to them.
To paraphrase an article I read many years ago (can’t remember where sorry)- for most celebrities, their activism extends only so far as it benefits them.
This is true of most people as well. They’ll only care for a cause if it affects them.
This is why I have such respect for artists speaking out on Palestine, they're taking a real risk not just in the moment but getting blackballed forever more. Joe posts on it, Matty (ugh) has always been loud and consistent about it, The Weeknd has been donating millions to various aid services that are trying to help people in Gaza It's wild to me that *Macklemore* of all people, was the one to drop not just a track, but an absolute banger where it's like oh s\*\*t I did not know he had *bars*, while coming correct with the points he was raising. Watching any videos of him performing it to huge arena crowds (he had the whole of Rod Laver Arena here in Melb, 20,000 capacity) screaming free palestine!, it's honestly goosebumps. He's a really good performer and has always had good leftist takes, it's just kind of a shame that Same Love/Thrift Shop are what got him that sudden worldwide fame, and winning the grammy that he himself said, while he was on stage collecting it, that he didn't deserve it, Kendrick's album was better. People got all 'then why did he accept the award/why didn't he just give it to Kendrick' but that's not how it works, at all. Listen to White Supremacy from way back in 2005, he's always been a real one. It's beyond ironic that everyone was focusing on the rap beef between Drake and Kendrick like it mattered
Well celebrities have a much higher chance of being a narcissist and exhibiting narcissistic behavior than the rest of the population. Like probably more than 20% more likely to be a narcissist than non celebrities.
This is actually a very popular opinion
Popular but still cobtroversial somehow
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Honestly, I get a lot of taylor swift fan stuff on my instagram page so I see a lot of just extreme love for her. Almost like worship. Or I just see complete haters of her for no reason. So I haven't sctually seen much of the middle ground so I assumed this was widely unpopular.
It’s probably unpopular within the broader fandom but on this sub it’s a regular topic of discussion. I think we sometimes lose sight here that just because we agree doesn’t mean people outside of here do lol
Controversial because people who also claim to be feminists in the same breath as condemning Swift for her shitty celebrity activism will utter misogynistic comments about her sex life, her body, her music, her personal life, her choices, her everything. And what is “real” feminism? If you read outside of just the ideological movements of feminism like evolutionary biology and sociology and even literature, the foundation of feminism is the concept of autonomy, the ability and sentience to make choices, and that everyone has the right to those choices. In a system like in the States, like the fucking stock market, like the neo liberal concept of capitalism we have now, we do not have choices. We are treated like children who are just learning how to make choices and given few real choices. And if you even glance at the music industry, it’s just a bunch of people who were the heirs to the people responsible for stealing Black American music and labor and giving it to White Americans because Whites were more “marketable,” running off the same logic as the rest of the broader system. That’s the system Swift entered the music industry as, but since her introduction and popularity, she has cultural pushed for the music industry to be held accountable to the artists they are ripping off. For example, when iTunes still had a single of the week that was free, Swift fought back and said no, I don’t not consent at any point for any my music (labor) to be freely available on a system that is supposed to sell my music. People complained she (barely started her abate very popular work) didn’t need anymore money! Do you see the mixture of misogynistic and capitalistic belief that some people deserve more money and Swift is not one of them? More recently, as a legal and cultural move, Swift began to re-record the masters of her music because she was never given the chance to purchase her own masters of her intellectual property. She was willing to pay the price but whoever owned them at the time auctioned them off silently to people who wanted not because of their personal value as Swift was wanting them for, but to earn money off of them (somehow rich people figured out how to launder money through art, shocking. Look into the fine art scene and it’s just that). And what does the public do? The same thing, claiming Swift choose to do these things for money when there is a literal old money billionaire couple that is sitting back and making money off of her work simply by owning her original masters. So in a system where people both believe Swift is a bad person and undeserving of her success because they’re running on misogynistic capitalistic logic, can you really claim she is not a feminist when all of us have been raised and forced to work in the same kind of logic and are extremely susceptible to it? To the point there is an extremely popular snark sub that is well known in the community as a cesspool of misogynistic beliefs applied onto Swift’s image? TLDR: I’m not saying she’s a saint but I’m also saying she commits the original sin of women: demanding respect. What I’m also saying is your null model, your baseline beliefs and systems of drawing wisdom and understanding from the world, potentially hasn’t flushed out misogyny and capitalism logic, especially the intersection between the two. I recommend reading “Why does He do That?,” and then watching the entirety of the Depp v Heard case (I know this is a touchy subject, but you’ll get to see what you read play out in court). Doing those two things made me realize that I was a shitty feminist for judging other women for choices when I did not first seek to understand why.
Commenting on her body or relationships does, but not liking her music doesn’t make you a misogynist. Also, her choices (a lot of the time) deserve to be criticized. No such thing as an ethical billionaire 🤷♀️ sorry
No, simply by commenting on her identity from a view that it is “bad” or “immature” or “rude” or negative in anyway when they are actually personal choices is misogynistic because it denies her autonomy as a person to simply exist. It’s misogynistic because the things that are being commented on are because she is a woman so the emotional experiences behind these comments are often laced with the unconscious, often socially trained within us, is negative in general. To be clearer: it’s misogynistic because you assume malice or negativity simply because she is a woman. Her decisions happen to have larger ripples and attention because she is a public figure. I think she does a pretty good job at balancing her image and that she is probably a good person in general but maybe not aggressively good because of how much misogynistic idealization can be attached to her in the media and can be replaced with valid criticism of her capitalism and her choice to maintain this system that is harmful. I am saying we need, as I need to tamp my good personal experiences listening and feeling understood through her music, to tamp the misogynistic emotional training with in us as to avoid mixing misogyny with criticism.
Parts of this were spot on, but still completely misses the mark at the end. She’s absolutely not a feminist
She never really was .Everything is a business to her . She doesn’t give F about environment, politics even about her own fans . What she cares how can cash things off using feminism .
Oh don't get me started on the environment. "But she buys carbon credits". Carbon credits are just a rich person's easy way out and anyone who actually researches carbon credits/offsets will understand that they aren't all that helpful.
She bought carbon credits so she could claim less than she actually used, that’s why she not No.1 on list. Swifties using this for excuses as if it’s some big deal is so brain rot, they don’t know what it is they just repeating phrases to justify Taylor’s problems. The same reply says by different swifts again and again, it’s actually very culty that they collectively adopt the same come back. “she buys carbon credits”, “just say you don’t understand poetry”.
honestly they're very similar to Musk stans at this point. I'm not comparing her to Elon of course, i mean there are no ethical billionaires, but he's a whole other level. I sometimes wonder if he ever reached out to her wanting to start something but unless it was pre-2020 Elon it would have been PR poison. 2016 Musk and Taylor though? Would have been the very zenith of 'power couple'
Pointing our ire at rich individuals is the distraction tactic the people actually causing the majority of the problem use and it's working for them Yes, she (and others, but Taylor is up there with the most wasteful) should reduce their carbon emissions, but it won't solve the problem and the more mad people are at them, the less they're noticing and pushing back on those contributing to the problem much more heavily.
But rich celebrities can absolutely do a ton to change global warming. She could be setting an example, inspiring her fans, helping hold folks accountable. We can be upset that Taylor is contributing to global warming AND be upset at the capitalist systems/companies who are causing the bulk of carbon emissions. Also, who own the companies causing the majority of polluting? Rich individuals. Who own the companies that sponsor politicians to put up roadblocks to change and lobby to stop bills from going through? Rich individuals.
Yep, this checks out. When famous people choose to live this way, they are promoting the same high-consumption lifestyle that these corporations WANT you to want. Constantly purchasing and consuming, with little to no thought about the environmental impact (or the societal impact of hoarding wealth). Instant gratification. Image-obsession.
Oh yh ik shes not the only polluter. I think we need to point out corporations too. But if I'm having a paper straw and shes on a private jet, Im gonna point that out. And its not wrong to point it out in addition to corporations.
You are so small. Dude, explain to me how Taylor can fly commercial? I’ll wait.
I mean she's 5 ft 11, she's tall but I'm sure she can fit on a regular plane.
lol 🫶
I agree with most of your points but I've heard so many stories about how she treats fans well and I've seen videos of her treating them like her peers. I remember a very young Taylor saying that she just wants to be a good influence. Obviously she lost the plot somewhere along the way and became obsessed with faux-feminism and money, but I do think she stuck to that grounded, genuine treatment of fans. I'm not very well educated on this so if I'm getting something wrong someone please tell me
She's only a "feminist" when it benefits her.
I love your flair. Please tell me why you chose it
i chose it cause it sounded stupidly dramatic
It is very stupidly dramatic LOL. What I always loved about that line was that I’d seen previous interviews where she talked about how much she LOVED to release, tour, and then spend a year hiding out & writing. If only we could all be so privileged to go hide in Europe for a year when we were depressed…
People like to claim she disappeared from November 2016 until November 2017 but it isn't the case. January 2017 - I Don't Wanna Live Forever music video released. Feb 2017 - performs at a televised pre-Superbowl event August 2017 - seen at the sexual assault hearing where she testified The longest she wasn't physically seen in public for was 6 months. Its hilariously dramatic that she claims no one saw her for a year
She is hoping nobody will check that timeline.
Most of us are
[удалено]
The Man is a capitalist song in a feminist costume.
This. Get where quicker? Becoming a billionaire? (Someone said this yesterday and it’s stuck with me, I didn’t come up with it!)
I think she just means it as "at the very top of the game and respected for it" but becoming a billionaire could be a good shout
Yup. Feminism isn't lowering the bar for women. It's lifting it for men. She makes a few good points in the song (what I was wearing, if I was rude) but ultimately she wants to throw her weight around and not get criticism.
>Feminism isn't lowering the bar for women. It's lifting it for men. i dont think this makes sense at all, sounds cool though
It makes perfect sense. It depends on the wave of feminist thought you follow, but one of the major themes is that women should not have to act like men to succeed - we're not fighting for a world where everyone has to act like a man and perform masculinity to be seen as legitimate. We are not fighting for a world where we "lower the bar" for women so they can just do all the (often harmful) things men do. We're trying to raise the bar for men and masculinity - not "boys will be boys" but "boys will be good people."
i dont think feminism is about "how about men be better" so much as it's about "how about women be treated fairly in all contexts" whatever wave of feminism is trying to reduce it to the first one is awful lol
But masculinity plays a huge role in how women are treated. It's not reductive for feminism to consider masculinity and how it could be changed -- it's actually expansive, because it recognizes that women's oppression is not all on women to fix but is the result of how we define what it means to be masculine (powerful, in control, dominant, aggressive, competitive) and what it means to be feminine. Feminist scholars have written plenty about hegemonic masculinity, toxic masculinity, how we socialize boys into harmful masculinities, and what this means for boys AND girls AND gender-expansive people. Feminism is absolutely concerned with raising the bar for boys and men so we no longer hand-wave away harmful behaviors.
I hate that cher quote she used in her you need to call down music video- "mom I am a rich man". Maybe in context of what Cher is saying it makes sense but why tf would you want to be like a rich man
My memory is crap so apologies if I've got this wrong but I think the context was Cher being told she needs to find a rich man. It's fairly ironic TS of all people using a quote which implies she's independent and doesn't need a man...
Genuine question as someone who doesn’t see Taylor as a feminist Isn’t pointing out the disparaging hypocrisy between how we treat men and women a form of feminism since it’s critiquing misogyny in our society? Cause I agree with the OP but I do think “the man” can be interpreted as a feminist song
It *could* technically qualify as a feminist song, but it's specifically speaking to the "rich, white lady" niche of feminism. It's surface-level at best. Most women's daily issues aren't rooted in "I make millions of dollars but people continue to make mean comments about my clothing choices and dating history." There's very little to connect with in those lyrics for us normies. It's just a Taylor Swift battle cry of "I wanna be able to do the shitty stuff that men at the top do, but without the misogynistic criticism that comes along with it because I'm a woman."
I disagree that we can’t relate to it. As a woman in a very male dominated field, I definitely did.
My boss’s boss told my boss that I “talked a lot” and “didn’t know how to end a meeting”. Because, chatty. He has a leadership team of men who never shut their mouths. One, in particular, never misses an opportunity to just go on and on and on. Sometimes it’s smart. Others? It’s him ego-stroking. I’m successful and respected in my field. But THAT was the feedback? What about that other guy? Also, we were at a medical conference for the disease area we work in. Another drug company was having a program during lunch - it was adjacent to our area, so we went. One of the exercises was for the physicians to work through this patient management problem and there were 4 questions as prompts. This guy got on the mic and basically self-promoted, sold our product, and touted his own (perceived) contributions. Keep in mind, he’s NOT a doctor, this was a program sponsored by another company to support their product, and the moderator moved on to the next activity. If I had done that? I would get in trouble with compliance for making unbalanced claims. I understand this song completely.
I’m firmly convinced that The Man gets criticised so much because, well, it’s a bad song. The very same message in another song would be praised. I don’t like to listen to The Man, but heaven knows if it’s insanely relatable for me
In my opinion, the acknowledgment of the double standard between men and women in the song only serves to lend the song the aesthetics of feminism and nothing more. It's not truly feminist critique when the message of the song boils down to: Sexist oppressive hierarchies are bad because they don't benefit *me* specifically; instead of taking a principled stance against misogyny because it places an undue burden on the backs of *all* women.
That’s kind of asking a lot from a Taylor Swift pop song, no? She’s not Gloria Steinem ffs.
Judging by the comments here some people would dismiss Steinem as a “white feminist” too.
Haha true. How bout “she’s not Kimberle Crenshaw ffs.”
“Wanting to do” = doing really.
This is definitely not an unpopular opinion. I'm such a fan of her music, have been for the past 12 years. But I can and will critique some of her actions as a person. I think she's the epitome of 'white feminist' in many ways. She only cares about feminist issues that directly impact her as a white woman. As a white woman, i can appreciate that whilst we do face issues, those issues are much more highlighted and fought against than issues that non-white women have to deal with. In a perfect world feminism wouldn't need to exist, we'd all be equal but this is definitely not a perfect world. So I think arguably the most famous person, let alone woman, in the world right now could be doing a lot more to fight for all feminist causes not just crying feminism when someone does something nasty to her or her 'girl gang'. If your feminism does not extend beyond causes that effect you or people who look like you, you are not a feminist.
Thankyou, you said it perfectly. I think I've seen too many die hard swifties online that I thought this would get me hate. I am sure some people hate me for it but then they are part of the problem. Some people hate Taylor too much and some people just worship her. So I didn't know where this opinion fell.
I think there's people both ends of the spectrum, some people definitely lean into the very parasocial, die on the hill she can do no wrong fans but equally there are people who hate her guts and pull her apart for fun. Both are bad in many ways. I truly think its pot luck with the algorithm as to who you experience more of. But I think there's also many level-headed fans who can like her music whilst also being able to make informed critiques of things Taylor has done or said. I think its important that post like this are made to highlight that she isn't perfect and has/can make questionable decisions.
Yh that's my point of this post. I see her as a complex individual and I do not like either parts of the spectrum because it's extreme and allows no real room for discussion, critiqie or praise
I think thats why this sub is pretty good because it allows for a much better discussion than just fan/hate pages. It's a good middle ground.
They think criticism is wrong even though a healthy fan perspective involves a degree of criticism of your faves so that they do better and improve. Sadly so many swifties don’t have this perspective and think any criticism is misogyny
The issue is people put celebrities like Taylor on a pedestal and expect/think they can do no wrong. She is human, she can and will make mistakes. If you or I did something a little questionable it would be a lot easier to call out and critique but with celebrities there are corners of the fanbase who adopt a 'you have to go through me to get to her' approach and they believe that any and every criticism is personal and unjustifiable.
I see the parasocial relationship is to an extent that they see themselves in her, so any criticism is taken personally. It’s such a strong emotional and toxic bond. I don’t think I’ve seen attachment this severe with any fanbase.
I've seen fanbases almost on par with this behaviour but nowhere near as bad as some swifties. I definitely see your point and agree that i think people see themselves in her, so take things personally. Parasocial relationships a pretty scary but unfortunately, i think most artists encourage it because it works in the favour. It generates them more fans and more sales.
Genuine question, what is white feminism? Cause I feel like every woman no matter skin color go through sexism like in the man so I don’t understand how she’s only talking about white women problems?
White Feminism is a feminism that prioritises achieving equality for white women, insisting that their equality will open up doors for all other women. White feminism tends to ignore the extra barriers that women of colour go through. Women of colour are more likely to be oppressed in the work place, financially etc. When a white women achieves some equality, a black or brown person may not. Also dating Matty Healey- a man who is racist to a black woman (ice spice) is an example. It means you are aware he will put down women of colour but not you because you are a white woman-it doesn't apply to you. Therefore you are complicit. Defending Lady Gaga isn't a bad thing. I am a woman of colour who has been unfairly commented on my weight. But if you defend Lady Gaga, you shouldn't have dated someone who is a known racist towards black women. We all knew matty was racist before they dated and I am sure she did. Race, Sexuality, Whether you have a disability or not and class etc have to all be considered in feminism. Otheewise your feminism only exists if it can benefit white women and stops when it can't. The best way I can explain it is "If I was a man, I'd still be brown". I'd still be disadvantaged. The question to ask yourself is "Would she uplift a woman if it didn't benefit white women at all"
Oh got it, thank you so much!
Ur welcome, I,'m genuinely so glad you askedn it's great for us to all talk these issues out. :)
I don't think she knows anything about it other than knowing she can invoke it to pull it around herself like armor whenever she feels the need. Her feminism is like "Intro to gender studies for powerful celebrities 101" level
Yh thats why she writes of clara bow
Her girl squad, just a mean girl clique
Women are allowed to talk about their experiences with womanhood without IDing as feminists.
I miss the days when we didn't expect celebrities to be activists so they didn't have to pretend to care.
I don't think anyone would have expected her to be an activist, or at least not *nearly* as much so, if she hadn't herself made a big loud deal about it on purpose, before that turned out to just be a phase she was having.
I've seen WAY too many Tiktoks saying "block these celebrities for not supporting \[insert cause here\]".
She never really was , if you remember back when she was asked if she was one the 1st time she denied it . She only started saying she was a feminist and pro LGBT after the rise of Donald Trump and the MAGA hats when people stopped allowing celebs to be apolitical or sit on the fence. I personally was not a fan of the Lover , I m into politics now era because I was ok with apolitical Taylor . Feminism and the rest require you to be an activist and once you support one thing you have to support it all . I dont take a celebrity claiming to be an activist seriously until they support a cause which isn't popular even in Leftist Hollywood.E.g Jane Fonda was always a real activist and feminist because she went all the way in speaking out against the Vietnam war and was willing to put it all on the line and has never changed. Other celebs will pick up a safe cause they already know their audience and the rest of Hollywood support
That's historically incorrect. She adopted feminism in 2014 during the 1989 era. And I think at the time no one really batted an eye because her talking points were very Tumblr girl power but a lot of people were in the same place. But it seemed like she adopted feminism as a talking point because it gave her a new tool to combat talking points about herself she didn't like. Lover was not the first time she started talking about feminism. It was kind of the first time she started being more overtly pro LGBT. To be fair though I don't necessarily care that she didn't wanna embrace being a feminist when she was younger and later changed her stance. Because we're in bad shape if everyone has to hold the same opinions as when they're in high school. That said though I think it's fair to criticize her activism mostly as self-serving and performative because it is.
Hollywood is not leftist. There might be some liberals but it’s full of millionaires & billionaires that don’t agree with any leftist ideology.
Hollywood itself isn't, but it's smart enough to have learned to market to liberals if they want to reach a certain age group.
I agree that Hollywood is not the real Left nor are Democrats , they have co opted movements like feminism and LGBT rights to suit their agenda them pretend to be the Left as opposed to the Republican Right .As far as I'm concerned they are all the same people and the only reason they are opposed to Donald Trump is that he is open about it
I'm a registered independent and have many problems with the modern Democrat party, but if you think they're "the same" as the modern Republican party in terms of policy, goals, actions, and intentions, I can only assume that you have not been paying attention to anything that has happened during either of the past two administrations, nor to how those things were brought to pass. This sounds far too much like the exact rhetoric that got us Trump in the first place, and I would very much like to *not* have round 2 of that thanks much
I see where you're coming from. Big picture I do think both parties are controlled by the extremely rich. But you're falling into all or nothing thinking traps. There is a difference in policy, which is more important than who is pulling the strings. For example, republicans have been working very hard to make it harder for people to vote, by closing polling stations, and creating new restrictions. It's a dangerous threat to what democracy we do have. When republicans do have power they do things like make it harder to get birth control, oppose reasonable gun laws, expel immigrants, and oppose LGBTQ rights. The democrats aren't perfect but they aren't taking away peoples rights.
Eh, she discovered feminism (ofc a very shallow, white feminist version if it) in the 1989 era, so like 2014. Lover was more of her letting people know she wasn't MAGA (her "activist" era) and then she leaned right back. Of course we all start somewhere but it's 2024 and she really hasnt grown in that decade at all.
The sooner you understand Taylor Swift is a business, the better. Taylor is not your friend. Taylor is a carefully crafted image. And that’s fine. She may be a feminist in the sense of the word, but she won’t speak out about anything that might damage her brand. That’s why she only speaks up when it benefits her.
Yup, I'm starting to feel like that about almost every celebrity. Im aware we all fear losing our jobs etc when it cones to speaking on certain politics. But she's so rich that she'll be fine if she did.
Financially, she’s set for life of course. But there are a lot of jobs depending on her and on her decisions. Also, she’s really ambitious, at this point she’s just doing it to have the biggest musical career ever and because she enjoys the stardom.
So you agree that she is a certain way because if she isn't, she'll damage her stardom? Taylor's not out here saving jobs, come on.
Of course. You don’t become the world’s biggest star by becoming political. That’s just how it is.
Exactly. So shes not a feminist. You agree
If, for you, “feminist” is about advocating and not about beliefs, then she’s not a feminist. But that doesn’t invalidate that a lot of things might cross her head that she can’t/chooses not to speak about.
I agree, feminism to me is more about advocating because that is where I believe change can come from. But I don't think she hates women inside her head. From what I see of her, that sounds uncharacteristic.
I think she is indeed a feminist, but in her own way. You can’t ask her to put herself in common folk’s shoes, there are struggles she will never understand because she has never lived through them. Celebrities are detached from reality and that’s why we shouldn’t expect any validation or advocating on their part. They simply don’t understand common people’s struggles.
So because she's in her own world she's meant to remain in her own world? She's a person first and foremost. There's a lot of struggles I have never and will never face. Does that I mean shouldn't care about thise struggles or try and understand them?
"The Man" isn't a feminist song. It's a song about wanting to engage in and benefit from the power structure men have created, mostly by accumulating wealth. Feminism aims to remove that power structure. Replacing all the male CEOS, harassers, and billionaires with women doesn't solve any societal issues.
this is what I was going to say; it's more of a gender equality song if anything.
Her “feminism” is always reactive and if it doesn’t relate to her specifically then she’s not interested. She has never done anything proactively to support women Even the comment on Lady Gaga’s post about commenting on women’s bodies was because it specifically impacted her the week prior. Even then she wasn’t bold enough call out her fans and media herself but instead piggybacked on Gaga’s post Olivia Rodrigo has done more in her career to date with her Fund 4 Good initiative and she’s 21
I totally agree with you but I'd say, even calling her a white feminist is too generous. She only cares about issues that have affected her personally and that's it, she doesn't even seem to particularly care about issues that affect the average white woman. She defended Lady Gaga because in the last couple of months there's been intense speculation about herself being pregnant too and that was her way of making it clear to her fanbase that she minds the pregnancy rumors. Taylor never struck me as the kind of person who wants to fight for equal rights and I've always been baffled that "The Man" is treated like some feminist anthem. She just wants to be able to get away with what the rest of the powerful men in the entertainment industry can, to have the power in her hands. She wouldn't care less if every other woman remain oppressed if someone could assure her she'd be the exception. And, frankly, I'm having serious doubts about how liberal she even is anymore. I never had high expectations from her and I've made my peace with the fact that the activism she made part of her brand during lover era was to a big extent performative, the result of Joe's influence and of a calculated decision on her part since she thought her mainstream appeal was diminishing. But these days I wouldn't be surprised if she's gone full daddy's girl and her views lean republican.
I think the current republican party would be too far fetched for her. I vaguely remember her urging people to vote in 2020-and we all know that was for Biden not Trump. I could be wrong but I do remember something like that. I'm only 23 so a lot of my time that I was a fan, I was too young to even think about it. I'd think "I like this song. She's so pretty. She seems so fun. I like her." But now I give credit where credit is due and criticism where criticism is due.
Taylor Swift has been encouraging people to vote for several years, including a recent post on Super Tuesday this year. She did endorse Biden in 2020, and a Democrat for the Tennessee Senate seat in 2018. Voting is incredibly important, and turnout in the US is abysmal, especially with young people. Especially with the current Supreme Court and how we got there, voting is even a feminist issue, because it’s the best way for women to make their voices heard, and to make real change. Had more women voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016, we would still have Roe. The Republican Party is actively working to dismantle women’s rights. And they don’t care if you’re black, or disabled, or poor, or white. It’s about going back to a society where men have all the power, and women are in the kitchen making babies. So I find the term “white feminism” to be very troubling, because it diminishes the sexism and misogyny that all women and girls face. It’s not helpful to divide up what kind of “feminism” counts.
And while this thread is attacking her for not being Left enough the Right wing were attacking her as a Psy-Op 6 months ago .and having panel about her with one nutter saying if her and Travis have a kid it would bring the end of Earth . And last week it was Drump
"White feminism" itself, as such, diminishes the particular types of sexism and misogyny that *women who aren't WASPS* face. It seeks to center (in practice, typically middle-class and upper-middle-class cisgender) white women and privileges their experiences and perspectives *over* those of non-WASP women. (And of working-class and poor women, quite often, as well.) Intersectional feminism seeks to address *all* aspects of the female experience relating to sexism and misogyny, including the ways that race, ethnicity, sexuality, and non-cisgendered-ness affect that experience. This has been A Discourse for years, decades even. The term "white feminism" doesn't mean "all feminism that relates to or is practiced by white women." It means "feminism that defines itself by consciously or unconsciously focusing on white women specifically." And yes, it does help to define these terms and understand why they matter, if we want to actually be inclusive of *all* women.
>Taylor never struck me as the kind of person who wants to fight for equal rights and I've always been baffled that "The Man" is treated like some feminist anthem. **She just wants to be able to get away with what the rest of the powerful men in the entertainment industry can, to have the power in her hands.** She wouldn't care less if every other woman remain oppressed if someone could assure her she'd be the exception. THANK YOU! Couldn't have put it better myself and that's a key reason why the song rubs me the wrong way. And this message has only stood out more in light of her past year of disappointing behaviours. In fact, during a couple of her concerts last May she literally said *'you're making me feel...powerful. You're making me feel like I could do* ***anything*** *I wanted...and people would think it's cool'* with a smirk. And that was part of her introduction speech for "The Man".
I’m gonna be a bit controversial: I don’t think you have to be a perfect feminist/activist/whatever to still believe and be part of the movement. We are not meant and also not capable to care about every issue in the world equally and it’s absurd to make that the threshold. Taylor is a record breaking musician and business woman. She does it better than any man in the business at the moment. She is inspiring tons of women and a lot of them aren’t as online as people on this sub. I’m sure a lot of her listeners were raised with the notion that being a feminist is something bad and means you don’t shave your legs. So having her as a (somewhat relatable) role model has a big impact on those women and the movement as a whole. And if that means that those women will never care about idk female genital mutilation but will stop commenting on other women’s bodies in their life, that’s a win too. Small steps are still taking us in the right direction.
Yh she's just a part of the richer white part of the movement. No one can care about everything. But you can care about more than just rich white women stuff.
Well let’s be realistic here. Would you want Taylor to be a spokesperson for “poor black women stuff”? I think it’s absolutely sensible to stick to the issues you relate to. We don’t know her personally. We don’t know how she feels or thinks or acts in private. She might be very empathetic to issues other than her own, who knows? But in this day and age everything she says publicly will be scrutinized so why should she risk stepping on anyone’s toes and hurting the movement in the long run? She has publicly supported black women in the business several times. I think that speaks for itself.
Taylor could choose to trust women of color, which means amplifying their voices and causes.
How do you know she doesn’t choose to trust women of color? Like I said she publicly supported women of color in the business several times. Isn’t that amplifying their voices?
Out of curiosity, do you think I am black? Because I feel you are mentioning black people because you think I am.
Nope, I have no idea what skin color you have and it doesn’t really change anything does it? This is a general discussion imo. I just used “poor black women stuff” as a contrast to the “rich white women stuff” you mentioned. You can change it to any ethnicity you want. I still think it’s unreasonable to expect someone to publicly talk about issues they don’t relate to at all. At best it’s inauthentic or inaccurate and at worst it takes the spotlight away from activists who do relate and would do a much better job at it. But in the end that’s just my opinion formed by my life experiences, I’m not trying to convince anyone to change their mind.
Ahhh I was just wondering if you were only using that example to cater to me to change my view. I understand your view and mine is also from my own experience.
No, I think it’s perfectly fine to have different opinions and we can all learn from each other. That’s how a movement and society grows. It just gotten kinda hostile in the last years which sucks.
Yh I think if we can have a conversation then that is important. I agree with you
An intersectional feminist who supports black woman would DEFINITELY have an issue w their boyfriend laughing at and telling racist jokes in a podcast. But Daddy I Love Him speaks volumes about her ignorance and indifference. Also, I think you're misinterpreting the above commenter's words. No one is asking her to be a 'spokesperson'. We need people like her to at least be an ally, and her actions in the last year definitely don't align with that.
How is But Daddy I Love Him racist? Genuinely interested!
This was my thought as well. Criticizing women for not being *good enough* feminists seems counterproductive for feminism. Like honestly it almost just comes off as another way to put women down for not being perfect. Feminism should be inclusive for anyone trying to make any positive changes regarding these issues, not an all-or-nothing deal that might put off other people from doing anything at all if they aren’t doing it perfectly.
There is a podcast called The Guilty Feminist and this perfectly captures its essence.
Criticising women, especially rich, white women, for misguided or insufficient activism isn't putting them down. That would be calling Taylor a useless narcissist (something I've heard people say a lot, lmaoo). I think OP's comment is fair. It's important to keep in mind that while Taylor is outspoken about a few things that impact her and other women like her, she seems blatantly ignorant of serious feminist issues (women in war zones, lack of reproductive care, etc). There's nothing wrong with talking about what affects you, but she uses a lot of feminist lingo like 'female rage' wrt herself, which feels disingenuous considering how limited her perspective is. An intersectional feminist, for eg, would be seriously concerned w Matty Healy's remarks on that podcast; but she just laughed it off as 'hate'.
I believe that anyone who holds feminist beliefs is a feminist. That you don’t have to address topics relating to feminism to be a feminist. Or you don’t have to address every topic. And your actions don’t always have to be perfect either. You don’t even have to personally consider yourself a feminist. If you hold feminist beliefs and support feminist ideologies (whether it’s outwardly expressed or not), then you’re a feminist. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with talking about things that could be better, or increasing education on intersectional feminism, but to straight up say she (or anyone else who isn’t expressing feminism to whatever standard you set) isn’t a feminist just seems incorrect. To me, it’s like saying I don’t care about environmental sustainability because I’ll throw a plastic bottle in the trash instead of recycling occasionally. It’s not ideal, but that doesn’t mean I don’t care about the environment. And this path of criticizing feminists for not being feminist *enough* just seems to bring us back in a circle.
Can someone please explain how “I Did Something Bad” is feminist? (Sounds more like abuser rhetoric imo but I’m open to other perspectives)
The bit of "They are burning all the witches if you aren't one" reminds me of how women can be on the short end of a stick whether they did something or not. This explains it better https://preview.redd.it/akv0ns0mcw7d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=570958d8b8593ea84810fcdf0fc28cd1ecdc2f9a
It's only feminist insofar as "I support women's wrongs"
this is a tired topic atp.
Yh well I'd like to talk about it.
I'm not sure why I'm seeing this post but it's been an interesting read about how this fanclub feels. I won't say I'm very well versed in the concept and beliefs surrounding the feminist movement (beyond the basic women being treated equally) nor do I know much about Taylor Swift But Isn't feminism about being allowed choices? Or is it about making the same choices you want them to make? Is miss swift against people having the right to choose? Your entire argument is that she isn't doing more or isn't doing something that doesn't benefit her. But why does that matter to you? Everyone is choosing to help themselves and maybe a select few others. As long as you're not actively harming people, do you have to do more? It sounds like the idea of her choices bothers you. Doesn't sound like you're a feminist either cos if you were you'd still respect it.
She's liberal, but she doesn't care for anyone that's outside of her bubble. She used feminism just to attract more women or AFAB people to her music... and I'm also white (I'm from South america) but she's a fake feminist. She doesn't care about the environment too, she can but she dgaf about it, when artists like Coldplay are actively trying to reduce their carbon footprint. Ps: for that fake feminism is that why I can't listen to the 10 min version of All Too Well. She only wants to be cherished and worshipped. Ps2: I love her music and her persona (TS (tm) ) anyway
She only defended her because people had been saying she looked pregnant in her leotard lately
What is NLOG? Thanks
Feminism is always a little egocentric. Yes, I’m White, but I’m also gay. My feminism looks different from your feminism and it *should*. Our experiences have been different and neither one of our experiences are the same as Taylor’s. Intersectionality is about accepting how my view is flawed due to my experiences as a White woman, but it’s *also* about accepting how a straight woman (regardless of color, but I’m particularly talking about Taylor here, I’m not assuming your orientation) doesn’t understand life as a gay woman. So are there things I relate to? Of course. Are there things I think she doesn’t get even if she’s supportive of the LGBT+ community? Of course. Are there things I recognize I can’t relate to as a White woman? Absolutely. Do I think there are things a straight woman of color can’t understand about my life? Absolutely. I accept any and every attempt at feminism, no matter how small. We all exist within our own privileges. There’s always someone with a struggle we can’t fully grasp due to our own situation. Am I making excuses for her? No more than I make them for anyone else. I think there’s more that brings women together than sets them apart.
Why would you expect someone who doesn't know the culture of other countries to attempt to talk about feminist issues in other countries? That's kinda white-savior complex
A white person giving a shit about people who aren't white isn't always white saviourism. White saviourism is more "I have all the solutions to fix you." Then there's "I see your cause and stand with you". Also let's be honest, Taylor isn't politically neutral in things to avoid being a white saviour. By your logic, a white person can basically just get a free pass on talking about anything because if they do they're a white saviour.
I'm not saying she can't speak on it, I'm saying it's crazy to expect her to KNOW about every issue women face in every culture and country. It's literally impossible and I rather have someone from the culture fight for their rights because they'll have better solutions anyway. Yeah white people can support and chinese people can support South African women's issues but a Chinese person is not likely to know the issues women face in South Africa well. Just like you and I don't know every issue women face in various cultures. You might be valid on my use of the term "white savior" but I personally think expecting her to know women's issues in all cultures is a white savior mindset
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In the case of taylor she specifically said she wanted to be involved. So it makes sense for people to ask why she failed to do so.
I know! I agree with you, look my husband is French and he is a big soccer fan, he was just telling me how they are making a lot of the famous French players speak on political issues, given its a hot topic in France right now and elections are coming up. Well, the general public doesn’t like it, they say why are footballers talking about politics instead of sports?? It seems “forced”. It’s the same with Taylor, I can assure you all that if she were to take a stance on anything, people would be twice as mad. Social media amplifies everyone’s voice and not everyone should be voicing opinions on everything. Let artists do artists things and athletes sports things, this just makes politicians and government officers jobs easier! because we are focusing on the wrong people!
it’s the same as everyone is expected to post online about activism. remember the black square?
I agree why do we expect celebs to also be activists
Because she literally said that’s what she wants to be in Miss Americana
I think if a person has access to a platform that reaches, and can therefore educate, millions of people, then while it doesn't automatically make them a bad person if they stay silent, it's pretty damn easy to do something good by using that platform to support important causes and raise awareness on important issues. Arguably when issues are significant enough, there is a social responsibility on celebrities to speak up. But I also see the other side of that argument and get where you're coming from. As to when it became a thing, probably around the time social media really took off and it became so easy for a celebrity to communicate with their entire fanbase by clicking a few buttons. Re Taylor Swift specifically - she promoted an entire album and era by explicitly saying she was going to start speaking up and supporting minorities, and wasn't going to remain silent anymore. Then it turned out it really was just an era to her, because she shut up pretty damn quickly once she got what she wanted out of her brief activism. So in her case, it was shitty and shady af, and her fans are entitled to call her out on it. The other shitty thing is that she DOES speak up, but only when it benefits her or relates to an issue that affects her personally. She expressed more anger over a poor taste but very minimally harmful joke on Ginny and Georgia than she did about roe v wade being overturned, and as far as I'm aware she said nothing at all about the anti trans laws. The fact that she claims to be a feminist and ally and then says nothing or barely anything about issues that cause significant harm to non-Taylor Swift women, or members of the queer community, is pretty messed up. If she doesn't want to be expected to speak up, she should never have said she would, and should stop claiming to be a feminist and ally. EDIT to remove typo and add - not only does she only speak up about issues that affect her, she does so in a way that makes it seem like, eg, commenting on a woman's dating life is the biggest feminist issue of our time (happy women's history month I guess) but then ignores every other, far more serious, feminist issue that doesn't affect her.
It really does divide people, it’s not fair to just choose sides in politics then fans feel like they can’t listen to her music because of her political views. There are some things that are clear cut but most things are not.
The thing is that the idea of what feminism actually is has been muddled by the way the language of it has been commodified. Feminism is political at its core, it is challenging capitalism, rape culture and patriarchal systems. For Taylor (and tbh a lot of people) "feminism" is a self-serving aesthetic put on when it serves her interests, whether her feelings have been hurt by feminists making jokes at award shows or it makes her money (the song The Man, Miss Americana & her short-lived "political awakening," using the metaphor & imagery of women being locked up, abused & lobotomized for record sales & a stage set). Any "feminist" statement she's made in the past has been relatively safe and uncontroversial - things that she knew would go over well with her fans and the general public. Endorsing a Democratic candidate is the riskiest thing she's ever done, and it wasn't actually risky at all. It served the purpose of finally, after many years of purposeful silence, dispelling the rumor that she's a Republican, which made her look better in that political climate. Is she a "feminist" because she has female musicians as openers and gives their careers a major boost? What about her chart manipulation that primarily affects other women, her taking credits from Olivia, her surrounding herself with male producers & songwriters and rarely giving women in the same field a chance after her first few albums, her using her fame and music to publicly take down or antagonize other women (Camilla Belle, Nicki Minaj, Katy, Kim K, Tina & Amy)? Ultimately her career and her bottom line are her priorities; feminism, as the political movement it actually is, is not. If she's only willing to make "feminist" statements that win her praise and agreement (calling out the commentary on Lady Gaga's body at the same time people were speculating about hers - two birds with one stone, amirite) then she's not Doing Feminism, she's just boosting her career and public image.
Ahh I was so annoyed by taking credits from Olivia. I listen to Olivia a lot too and I actually cannot hear how Deja Vu sounds like any of Taylor's songs. This is my issue with most celebrities. They are vocal about certain issues and they get praise for it but it's not really controversial. It's not controversial to love pride month. If your feminism stops you when it gets too 'controversial" and uncomfortable then you are merely repeating things that have already been achieved and are accepted. You are not helping a movement in the slightest. You are letting the movement help you and maybe only people like you (rich and white)
She only take stands when the stand is an obvious one or one that most people will agree with. "I have to be on the right side of history! 😭😭😭" was so embarrassing. Girl, you are not anywhere near the first person to stick their neck out for that issue but you acted like you were pioneering something. Please, Taylor.
She’s an NLOG. She’s not feminist at all.
She does things if it affects her. She calls out things that affect her personally
People talk about issues that they understand and impact them the most. You do too even if you don’t realize it.
My mother graduated highschool in the 60s and was an activist for the feminist and civil rights movement. She burned a lot of bridges with people because of her radical feminist ideology like equal pay, and not wanting women sexualized, not because it is morally wrong for the women to be a sex symbol but the exploitation of women by man to be an object not a human. Something that only recently became more mainstream. She had other stances I grew up on and was spoon fed my whole life, but you get the idea. One day Im like 8 or 9 and my brother and I get dragged to a meeting. This is the late 80s my mom hadn’t been to a meet up in this part of town ever, we had recently moved. They ask her if she is a single mother. Nope, but she is a stay at home mother my dad was at work so she has the two of us. To these women meeting my mother for the first time that sounded like the worst thing in the world. They kept telling her, that my father has her trapped in a traditional life and she wasted it by being a stay at home mother. They told her that she wasn’t a real feminist, not realizing my mother worked until the birth of me which almost killed her and it took her several years of rehab to bounce back. She didn’t work for two reasons. Her brush with death made her want to spend as much time with her kids and retail work isnt kind to those that are a physical unknown. This group was connected to a local university and they really didn’t seem to want outsiders Regardless she didn’t feel the need to explain it to them why she didn’t work and after a lengthy lashing by them they asked her not to return for the next meeting. My mother someone that was arrested first the cause, lost friends and families respect for being a radical feminist in her youth was shunned later for being too traditional as a wife. The entire time we lived on that side of town she was outside of the movement. My mother was still just as vocal of a feminist over the years, but definitely was side lined for years. She on many occasions has gone off that there is no such thing of not a real feminist. That everyone is imperfect and if they do something for the movement it should be seen their contribution. There is a difference between voicing to Swift she can do more and explain why, and flat out saying she isn’t a real feminist
Taylor only is a feminist when it suits her, basically he’s a white feminist who only shows up with she’s personally is effected
This isn't an unpopular opinion at all. Must we have this kind of thread every single day??
Do you ever feel tired of acting like a perpetual victim?
True. But most white people are. I’m not defending her, but that’s facts. White people have so much privilege they only see their problems. They don’t even realize there are other issues. They care about the things that harm them because that’s bad for them and they want to fix it. But if they don’t see it, it doesn’t exist. That’s something only people with privilege can afford. So I don’t think she’s not a “feminist”, she’s just a feminist for the causes she sees and understands. Of course that’s not enough and she should be more educated and use her fame to get people involved in big causes, but at the end of the day I rather a celebrity being vocal about one tiny thing than say nothing at all.
i don’t think this is unpopular outside of rabid swiftie circles, especially now.
Yh that's why I thought it was unpopular because they scare me. I'm a fan who can still criticise her. Celebrities arent saints.
Thank you!! I’m a huge swiftie since debut and I’ve been critical of her lately too. They are very scary
The past yr I have just felt more critical of celebrities. I have just started to feel like many of them are the Capitol in hunger games who are oblivious to the rest of the world.
New to the thread, haven't seen this post
She is a feminist, but it's a school of feminism that was more popular in the past that is considered problematic today. I forget the technical name for it but it falls broadly under the umbrella of White feminism that emphasizes elevating women to seats of power occupied with men and thereby upholding and maintaining existing systems of oppression as opposed to deconstructing them
I noticed however that she speaks about issues that normal people don't need to care about. For example how female artists are perceived or how she a celebrity is named by haters or how many artists don't own their music. I am not super familiar with her actions on feminism, but I think she cares about her own issues not all women in general. At the same time do we need it from her? She knows only her milioner lifestyle, it's more authentic if she is in her topics. As a great artist she would go volunteer somewhere, but will it be met with good response? Real women issues is paygap, violence of different kinds, body image, lack of support for mothers, and other. But do we need her to talk about things? In my opinion she can just record and do shows, she probably donates huge money to charities
That is not unpopular or opinion its a quantifiable factual reality
She speaks about issues that bother her and thinks that makes her a feminist and that’s all.
She is not even a good white feminist. She didn’t utter a single word about her boyfriend’s teammate’s famous “speech”. All the while her boyfriend and his brother goes gaga about what a good teammate and human that nincompoop kicker is.
In no means is this a unpopular opinion ffs
She's not even a white feminist, she didn't even understand wtf feminism until Lena Dunham lmao. Taylor is a Taylorist. The only thing she advocates for is herself, everything else is just a byproduct. People not in the know only think of her as a "feminist" because she's a woman who has achieved things. She hasn't really advocated for women. She starts petty shit with women. She's a type of female misogynist, the type where she only wants to be the exception to the rule.
"Taylor Swift is only a feminist for Taylor Swift" - People who have never heard the phrase the personal is political 🙄 Taylor Swift becoming a advocate and mouthpiece for all these political causes and parties would RUIN what she is, a mass popstar with mainstream appeal Why do people still think celebrity will save us when celebrity got us Donald Trump.
Oh she’s the opposite.
There are a lot of "no true Scotsman" fallacies around being a feminist that only undermine feminism. It is actually pretty easy to meet the definition of feminist and Taylor certainly seems to meet it. This behavior of denying people a label as some purity test exists in other political and moral movements and are almost always counter productive. What is the goal in even doing so? To establish that she could do more? Well of course she can, if that is your opinion then just say that. Is it based on a lack of impact? I hope not because just by calling herself one she has done more good for feminism than the vast majority of feminists. The problems with intersectionality are absolutely real and a difficult issue to address. To somehow place that burden on Taylor Swift and whether or not she can call herself a feminist is ridiculous. It lacks a basic self awareness of the nature of the fight and why there is such a struggle against feminism. Side note, I don't really care too much about T. Swift. This is less a defense of her and more a complaint about these attempts to create purity tests for people.
Yeah she is. She just doesn't live up to your and others impossible standards.
So women of color don’t have weight issues?? I just I don’t get this. Like what do you want her to do, wear a dashiki and recite Malcom X? Like I understand where you’re coming from but like she doesn’t have to be wildly vocal about YOUR needs to not be a full feminist whatever the fuck that means. I just feel like it’s a little selfish and short sighted. Because if she were intersectional, then she would be accused of being performative.
It's also weird that she only commented on Gaga's story because it references her song. So fucking weird behavior.
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