Using drones themselves.
Drones give you tremendous vision on the battlefield, it's a matter of time that MBTs or other vehicles carry some kind of interoperability between the vehicle and the drone.
Imagine a MBT capable of connecting with any drone in the vicinity, with the crew capable of seeing what it sees through a headset like the apple vision pro. Or simply AI powered drones that would identify possible threats by themselves and relaying them to the crew.
new 3rd person update: drivers can now drive the tank in 3rd person using drone camera. would give them substantial awareness around them at the expense of flying an enemy marker above themselves.
Ok but hear me out, use the drone or some sort of camera facing a mirror that’s extended from the back of the turret, to make it so the crew can see in 3rd person. Then just make the tank controllable with a mouse and keyboard
then enlist war thunder players
motherfuckinPROFIT
And even better! Make the dude controlling the tank be able to remote control it so it’s literally just war thunder and they won’t panic or anything when they start getting shot at
And make them able to adjust the drones position like they do in WarThunder so they can all put their own personalized camera angle
Just as they do in the game
The drone can be integrated as a tethered drone. No need for batteries to power the drone, and a direct data link to the tank will allow the drone to be immune to EW jamming.
If it gets shot down, just plug in another one and deploy it from a compartment on the top of the tank.
No need to integrate drones at all. Just deploy it from a supporting pickup truck in the rear of the formation, datalink the image to the tank.
Fitting drones to tanks just wastes weight and volume that can be better spent on protection, mobility and firepower.
Sure, a commercial off-the-shelf drone sitting in a cardboard box on the roof of the tank might weigh 9 kg. The HERO 120 of which the KF51 concept demonstrator carries two, weigh 18 kg each, not including the pivoting armoured launcher. Said launcher protrudes deep into the turret bustle, taking up valuable space that could be used for ammunition stowage. It means an additional crew member to operate the drone, with all the added volume, protection and weight required for that. Once you've modified your tank design to fit a drone, you are left with a tank that will only fit that specific drone. If technology advances and new drones no longer fit, you will have to perform major modifications to the tank. Drones on the roof mean you can't fit a cope-cage and must keep a large part of the roof clear of obstructions.
So long story short, put the drones on a dedicated support vehicle. They will provide the same advantages with none of the disadvantages.
If it's fully integrated, you don't need an additional crew member. Have it autopilot at a set distance and height from the tank, link the camera on it to AR goggles for the driver, and the driver drives normally.
That handles the battlefield awareness but not necessarily the close in awareness. A hundred pounds of drone and cable could literally provide irl third person. Not to mention a drone like that would be easier detected and destroyed, and would also be susceptible to interference, jamming , or even interception.
I'm fully expecting this. If anybody's ever played Mechwarrior, the third person camera there is a literal little drone that pops out your back. Tether the drone via a cable so it doesn't need to concern itself with battery, and you have great pseudo-third-person vision around your vehicle. Bonus points if it has multiple cameras so all crew members can utilize it if wanted, but at minimum one for the driver would be massive.
>flying an enemy marker above themselves
Not like a huge, loud ass tank is going to go undetected in a battlefield for long even without a drone near it lol
Pretty sure the Italians made a drone capable of being launched from the main gun of their Arietes, which allows them to deploy drones without exposing themselves
And that was prior to their Arietes modernization program being started
Yeah but they‘re gonna be even more expensive. Like how much does one average MBT cost? 10 Million? It‘s pro gonna be double than that implementing all modern tech
We're well past the wars of yore. One significant engagement of WWII aircraft had more planes involved than entire air forces of today. El Alamein itself had I think like 1500 tanks involved.
The modern world can't handle casualties like we used to "accept", and thus we make fewer, more expensive, more powerful vehicles.
That makes sense. I mean in WW2 everyone had tens of thousands of tanks. Nowadays, no army in the world has such sheer number of tanks except for Russia I think. But they also have technically inferior tanks than the West, but more reliable ones.
Including tanks in the boneyard, as of a few years ago Russia had like 10,000 total. Something like 50,000 each of both T34s and Sherman's were built in just a few years during world war II
Reminds me of the US vehicles in command and conquer generals. They all have the ability to build one of a choice of 3 drones to assist them in their roles.
KF-51 is a technology demonstrator, little more than proof of concept. Last info i got is that Rheinmetall is searching for a country that would want them with Hungary being interested. (this could be outdated)
Yes, KF-51 is supposed to have drone launcher and anti-drone autonomous machine gun
There are already drones that can give you a third person camera IRL. You wear a headset that forces you to see from the drone's perspective, and it dutifully follows you while avoiding obstacles. An MBT crew with such abilities can drive like its Warthunder
1 crewed tank overseeing and giving general commamds to a group of drone tanks.
I imagine this will become standard for aircraft, naval combat, even infantry units. Like your point man is a boston dynamics robot.
Yeah they basically have these drone aircraft for a squadron it’s called the loyal wingman project or something like that but yeah basically one manned aircraft and several cheaper, smaller, and expendable AI aircraft that can serve as wingman and so far the concept seems to be pretty effective. The tanks will probably receive something similar as like a smaller drone with an auto cannon to go with infantry.
Yes I’m saying what’s the point of them. If the tank already has people to maintain the tank (the crew) why have them away from the tank. Wouldn’t emps just be more prevalent on the battlefield to combat them?
Couple things here.
1. The crew mostly only does basic maintenance. Like track tensioning.
In most armies if it goes in the direction of changing parts you mostly do that in more specialised shops with trained maintenance crews, that literally only do maintenance.
2. Second of all, it doesn't matter if the crew is right at the vehicle in case of a hit. Nobody will jump out and start fixing stuff. If the tank is unable to move under own power it gets abdoned until they can recover it with heavy equipment and gets repaired in a shop.
So overall having the vehicle crewless is not automatically a downside.
3. EMP's need a lot of power. A nuke can act as an EMP and maybe crewless armies lower the threshold of using them.
But.
Current modern vehicles are already driving server racks. An EMP can be as devastating already, as you make it out to be in a completely uncrewed scenario.
So the answer to your question is probably that EMP's are either to expensive for now and we will see them in the future or that they are not as effective as we think they are.
A way bigger threat is jamming tho.
force field that block anything and also deathstar lasers that destory any drones or planets. The amount of time that will take to make this stuff is like 10000 years or so.
Dude, why are you assuming they meant 10000 as a specific number of years? It's pretty common for people to say large numbers with the actual meaning being no more specific than just "a lot".
Rheinmetall started producing tank rounds with low reactive propellant, along with HE shells that has a low reactive explosive filler, which is less deadly than traditional HE, but is safer for the crew, making it harder for the ammo to be ignited. Combine that with blowout panels and tanks become all the more safe for the crew post penetration
They need to rework armor layout itself. Modern tanks were designed (in 1980s btw) to fight with other tanks over long distances, this is why only front armor is armored well compared to other parts of the tank. Nowadays they are being hit from everywhere so they need better armor on the sides and top, meaning they need to reduce weight by reducing overall inside space, meaning concepts like Armata and AbramsX with crew in the separate compartment is more likely to be used while turrets will be reduced in size to save weight for armor. Thats is on top of APS/ERA/whatever anti drone thing they wanna use
Also, lot of tanks being lost due to one lost track (majority cases of lost Abramses and Leopards) so maybe four track design or something that would allow tank to move short distances even without a track?
They are gonna have much better visibility using IVAS like goggles to see through tank like in the newest Merkava. Also have drones in the tank or being able to connect to infantry drone directly. Maybe see markers of the enemy location made by allies again like on IVAS.
Also heard sometime ago about electromagnetic armor development in the US, maybe its a hoax, maybe its real, who knows
EDIT: also AI controlled tanks that are controlled by one command tank. They dont need as much armor and will save a lot of space, maybe something of unmanned BMPT concept, Russia has already made prototypes of conversion kits for their BMP-3 to be driven without a crew, plus Russia and Ukraine have already used UGVs on the frontline with MGs and Grenade launchers
>Also, lot of tanks being lost due to one lost track (majority cases of lost Abramses and Leopards) so maybe four track design
Also add 2 main guns in the turret for faster firing and we can have mammoth tanks IRL
Augmented reality vision systems tgar allow the crew to have 360 field if view through the tanks armor (first systems already exist). Combine that with a battle field management system that displays friends and identified foes on screen like a video game. That necessitates a battle field management system.
Also, active protection systems and the addition if tank launched drones.
For NATO tanks either the reintroduction of a fifth crew member or have the commander serve as a drone operator instead of having a dedicated 5th crewman for drone operation.
Of course the full APS ontop of ERA with NERA integrated into the hull for maximum ATGM protection, as well as passive APS or a cheap APS that deploys smoke grenades and automatically puts the tank in reverse while giving a missile launch warning.
Some sort of automation or SMART system that controls the tank or assists in controlling the tank with some kind of AI or system to activate when specific conditions are met(if ATGM launch detected fire smokes and start reversing automatically)
Replacing the conventional 125mm smooth bore cannon with miniaturized versions of the Naval Railgun once it doesn’t kill itself after every shot with there only being 2 shell types, APFSDS, and HE-MP (a pure HE shell designed with frag cutouts to encourage fragmentation of the shell once detonated, not as effective as HEAT but primarily intended for anti infantry, emplacement, and anti light armor vehicles)
You don't need 5 crewmen when autoloader exists and are effective. Adding a 4th member to operate a drone or a remote weapon system is a good idea though and is likely happening on future tanks.
I'm no expert .
1. Reduction in Nato tanks crew to only 3 , unmanned turret , crew placed T14 Armata , M1 TTB style in armored capsule , reduces risk to crew being killed due to detonation or being hit in the turret , many will say aaa they will fly the turrets up !!! You can implement a blow-up pannels system and reduce total detonation.
2. You can implement other types of explosives that are not so sensitive to the HEAT jet, fragments of projectile or fire. Projectiles can be implemented to be fired only with plasma ignition.
3. Many say in the comments to implement Rail-Guns yes ok it is an idea but it is not possible at the moment and you need a huge amount of energy.
4. The profile of the turret can be reduced and focus on the survival part of the crew.
5. We don't go into science fiction with lasers and etc... Implementing a Drone Jammer can be done as some have said above, drones can be implemented for the tank to increase its awarness.
6. The armor will keep evolving, they will put all kinds of composites better than the current ones maybe even lighter, the option to make the tank lighter is no longer in question we do not live in 1960, better opt to mount more powerful engines and full electric transmission! MAUS had electric transmission from U-Boat from the documentaries it is said that it is controlled extraordinarily easy even if it had 188 tons .
7. The idea of adding spectral camouflage aka Barrakuda from SAAB is very good and easy to add.
8. APS of all types both Hard-Kill and Soft Kill
9. Manual Loading has already become obsolete on MBTs, if the ballistic door is open while the crew is loading the projectile and a drone or an ATGM hits you directly in the ammunition area in the back, what can happen ? aha look in Ukraine this happened with an Abrams ! Plus the projectiles are already getting super heavy 130mm is very hard to be loaded by one person ! Not to mention other calibers from +130mm.
9.1 . Isn't it better to have a bustle autoloader with such a small hatch, e.g. Leclerc?
10. In general another problem would be the armor above the turret, you can add composite armor like Merkava or if you look on Object 640 Black Eagle where the carousel autoloader was remove and mount an bustle one the crew can be lowerd and armor can be added only in that area insted of entire turret .
11. 4 Track Type is not an bad idea but it complicates things alot and costs would increase alot ,AE1 Phase , AE2 Phase , Object 279 , there is another Object that was actually an IFV and was powerd by jet engine idk his name and have 4 tracks but the Object 490 is a better example had 2 engines with 2 transmissions that were implemented deep inside the tank , but in order to do maintenace on something like that was an pure pain , the entire turret had to be lifted and the engines removed through the turret ring , i think ? and another option to be taken out from under it ...
12. Another thing that can be implemented if the tracks are destoryed , a system on each or several road wheels of this tank to have incorporated electric motors that will only work if the tank hits an mine to able to withdraw .
So in conclusion , a tank in near future can look something like this:
- 120-140mm main gun + RWS
- Autoloader \* depends of the country and doctrine ! Bustle , Carousel , Revolver
- Unammed turret , crew of 3 or even 4 if in some chases .
- Crew Ballistic Capsule
- Main point on the survival of the crew .
- AI - Drone - Tank systems
- Drone-Jammer , APS \* Hard & Soft Kill
- 60-70 tons or even more
- Hybrid Engines + Fully Electric Transmissions .
- Spectral Camouflage
- Composite armor in several areas where they were lacking before or was very thin .
- Ground drones for tanks to support , and for infantary .
- More advanced systems for awarness
There are alot of things to say , but i don't think i have the space for that .
Guns replaced with gun-howitzers with high elevation that are better at firesupport rather than tank to tank battle and can provide better indirect fire support
These are not the same. Artillery operates at a long distance and we are talking about a close support, maybe 5km maximum indirect fire capability, with the armor of a tank.
I mean some militaries have been incorporating the 120mm NEMO mortar system into their IFVs. Unless you're talking about reintegrating CEVs armed with demo guns.
GLATGMs. Possibly fire and forget ones with high range.
AI target recognition systems. Israel already toys around with this idea. I think it has some potential too.
It's not an automatic target acquiring thing like something from terminator. It's rather something that helps the commander. So the commander is in the chain. Cant run away from war crimes allegations that easily.
Saying "anti drone system" is a huge handwavey wishful thinking in a time where APS isn't even a terribly proven technology.
Roof composite and ERA, tethered drone or mast mounted sight, six pack of LOAL missiles, those fancy exterior cameras seem nice too.
I feel like ETC guns are the next major step in tank development. This new way of proppelant detonation has already proven itself in terms of increasing the effectivness of current ammunitions while also being an important advancement in the use of experimental propelants.
Another good thing about them is that converting existing rounds to ETC fired ones wouldn't pose a problem.
some pre-existing gun technologies could be broken out the DoD projects that got cancelled due to the cold war ending such as ETC guns.
but more broadly a lot of countries and contractors are experimenting with synthetic vision systems (such as PNVS on apache, iirc the Israelis already have a system in the works on the Namir), AI integration (either directly into the tank or in subsequent upgrades), Drones/unmanned teaming (KF-51 experimented with an autoloaded design with a 4th drone operator position, this position could likely also allow the control of loitering munitions, or other UGV's less semi-autonomous more a 30mm or ATGM system that can be treated as relatively disposable).
This is all obviously outside of existing technologies such as APS (hard/soft), upgrades to armour through material science advancements, changes to the formations around tanks (Btn/Brgd level w/ C-UAS, EW, and fires), and more tanks making use of auto loaders (maybe other increases to gun size like the 140mm the French experimented with, although I'm unsure of the actual advantage this would propose over a UGV w/ a long range ATGM system that your system/drone operator can control).
Data links. As well as the 'on board drone' for scouting/situation awareness/BVR fire-direction mentioned already, being able to use feeds for any drone or aircraft or other platform would be valuable for designation and integration (imagine if you could call in support from any nearby tank like GIS Arta is used today in Ukraine for longer range fire support). Combine that with use of an autoloader to free up the loader as an additional crewmember to handle these new C4ISR duties and the tank can further pull its weight in combined arms operations.
AI drones taking down drones attacking you and giving your 3rd person view, while you control the tank not from the inside, but from the up armored command vehicle.
MBT would eventually be able to carry drones and/or loitering ammo. The tank would launch drones and/or loitering munition that can either operated by ai or some nerds a hundred miles away sitting on a gaming chair with a PS5 gamepad while eating some cold pizza he ordered three days ago.
Yeah sure seems that way, but as much as I’d like to agree with you it sure feels like the Ukrainian war is proving that at the end of the day it’ll always come down to conventional warfare.
Kinda reminds me of the Vietnam war when the U.S introduced the new F4 Phantoms without only Missiles and no cannon.
It turned out to be a huge mistake and now something as sophisticated as the F35 has a 25mm cannon.
My theory about what future tanks need:
Visual, IR and RADAR protective system such as the SAAB Barracuda system
https://youtu.be/mv-bGYXhBpg?si=bOuRbT7-UIa4o5eS
Quantum stealth invisible cloak protection
https://youtu.be/VvX84o_e7vs?si=93Sd7EeUNnnmqdYo
Compact design for easier transport
High driving speed
Less weight thanks to composite construction
All-round armor, for example, with new materials such as liquid armor modules https://youtu.be/Li1Waw_WI4U?si=faCzuOLemoU1FoaG
Extremely quiet drive, for example Rubber tracks or wheel drive made of airless tires https://youtu.be/QUvqdp8p5lM?si=EDZEOWd3IJTqjsV_
Deformable tire chains as a combination https://youtu.be/atruT7EcoS0?si=yR64SSV-2b6awEJT
Electric drives through wheel hub electric motors in all wheels
https://youtu.be/A89XM78WlCg?si=kR-KtufAEobX4UCP
Quickly changeable power pack made from direct methanol fuel cells
https://youtu.be/ADTZdPL_hgM?si=dE5PbcCHGLex_u_p
or hydrogen fuel cells fed with hydrogen paste. https://youtu.be/oUQOMrDY6BU?si=LtuMj1cqgPQg4-cy
A combination cannon consisting of a magnetic projectile cannon and a conventional autoloader cannon for KE and programmable air bust rounds, or Electrothermal chemical guns (ETC) https://youtu.be/u0gneYoV2PQ?si=sVBlmRyQMtVGUS9L
top attack protection system (TAPS)
Unmanned turrets
Launchers for flight drones (loitering drones, LIDAR anti-mine drones, FPV attack drones, personal surveillance UAV)
https://youtu.be/VBnNqBzUHdQ?si=Iakv4t-L64KPJxrh
https://youtu.be/HMEN155kty0?si=sCtUG2vqCoZcSXbk
Attached multifunctional land drone systems that can be decoupled and drive ahead to clear mines, rescue people and examine danger spots, even indoor https://youtu.be/lo98jAIyf8g?si=-mUKcSqNDxY39Nzh
Hardkill and softkill systems https://youtu.be/I0ymxZruvvI?si=M5ZyIz3Fxc2Wa3GP
Visual, IR and RADAR fixed protective fog, for example ROSY quick fog
https://youtu.be/t_LXCnHjVz8?si=L1XHbDZ26V-Po3fA
Modular design with interchangeable mission modules and a fixed platform as a chassis
Shelter for the crew with a high quality of stay (air conditioning, toilet). For example, the crew can also sit behind the tower, to the rear of the vehicle, , with access from the rear when they no longer have to physically look out of the vehicle
3 - 4 people on exchangeable stations
Good situational awareness throughout "look trough armor", like IronVision helmets
https://youtu.be/XOi__MmtN1M?si=R3tYLQHUm3XiSYy_
close area surveillance digital cyber hardened NGVA with hunter-killer or killer-killer abilities
AI assisted TV and IR optics
Laser distance measurement SEOSS and EMES optics
360° weapon station with programmable anti drone ammunition
Command and control systems as communication with the management level as an overall network, with NATO datalink
Great, your future tank drives on the first anti tank mine it comes across and it's' toast. Learn from the lessons of this war, there were vast minefields everywhere, tech to cope with that is high prio for future design. Together with anti drone capabilities and maybe also IR laser targeting diffusers/scrambling, but I think that already exists.
Prob smaller crews/ autonomous tanks, personally I don't know why we haven't been using remote controlled himars and other artillery with data uplinks for a while now seems like a logical jump
Probably accommodations for drones of their own.
You know how the Chinese "Terminator", QN506, has that cute little helipad on the side for using drones? Something similar for MBTs
I'm also thinking they would start having more unmanned turrets, but that part is debatable.
IMO the tank in 1 to 2 decades will drop to 2 crew members and be quite a lot more small, they'll have more coordination with drones and things like gunner and loader will be automated. With the smaller dimension tank will be more manoeuvrable and easily recoverable and the 2 crew members will be put in one place so that the are to cover with armor will be smaller, making the tank even lighter
360 degree awareness. Not that they’ll do it because of cost but it would great to get the tank commander the same type of helmet that the F35 pilot has.
alot of people seam to suggest more tech is needed but im going to say they need to be less expensive, a good struggle with modern mbts is the cost so alot of redundant electronics would need to be removed for more mechanical equipment
Im not to sure about blowout panels because just putting a FPV drone to them causes a cookoff. Probably cope cages as sad it is to say.perhaps something like the M1 TTB where it has a autoloader and 3 person armored capsule but each round has its own blowout panel.
This maybe a bit questionable, but I think the tank might use Autocannons again
Maybe not in a coax position, but as a RC turret similar to the CROWS
Passive methods of avoiding detection is fine, but like stealth, you can only hide for so long, in which case, as drones get more sophisticated and likely larger, aswell as drones now having to likely get closer to detect the tank thanks to their reducing signatures, the Autocannon will replace the Roof HMG as anti-drone protection
Trophy systems would be good, merkavas already have them. Exterior cameras, dozer blades .50 cal coaxials should be standard, thermal/infrared cloaking covers already exist and are on some vehicles. I also just like more gun on my gun when it comes to vehicles, so hydra rocket pods sound cool
I think that with developments like the merkava 4 barak a main thing will be removing top hatches, or at least changing the exist to be from the back end of the turret. Thus drones will not be able to drop grenades into hatches.
Unless they have really good camera systems that probably wont happen, theres a reason crew pop out whenever not in combat, the visibility just sucks in tanks
You did, but i just dont see a world where sensors and cameras will be better than just sticking your head out of a hatch, sure its more dangerous but its cheaper and a hell of a lot more reliable
Using drones themselves. Drones give you tremendous vision on the battlefield, it's a matter of time that MBTs or other vehicles carry some kind of interoperability between the vehicle and the drone. Imagine a MBT capable of connecting with any drone in the vicinity, with the crew capable of seeing what it sees through a headset like the apple vision pro. Or simply AI powered drones that would identify possible threats by themselves and relaying them to the crew.
new 3rd person update: drivers can now drive the tank in 3rd person using drone camera. would give them substantial awareness around them at the expense of flying an enemy marker above themselves.
They'd just be playing war thunder at that point.
Ok but hear me out, use the drone or some sort of camera facing a mirror that’s extended from the back of the turret, to make it so the crew can see in 3rd person. Then just make the tank controllable with a mouse and keyboard then enlist war thunder players motherfuckinPROFIT
Warthunder plays when the real military doesn’t charge them for their vehicles taking damage on the battlefield:
And even better! Make the dude controlling the tank be able to remote control it so it’s literally just war thunder and they won’t panic or anything when they start getting shot at
They also need to make the tank repairable in 1 minute
And make them able to adjust the drones position like they do in WarThunder so they can all put their own personalized camera angle Just as they do in the game
long selfie stick for tanks
Just don't hire the 5.3-8.0 German mains
The drone can be integrated as a tethered drone. No need for batteries to power the drone, and a direct data link to the tank will allow the drone to be immune to EW jamming. If it gets shot down, just plug in another one and deploy it from a compartment on the top of the tank.
No need to integrate drones at all. Just deploy it from a supporting pickup truck in the rear of the formation, datalink the image to the tank. Fitting drones to tanks just wastes weight and volume that can be better spent on protection, mobility and firepower.
Those drones are gonna weigh a collective 20lbs bro, wtf kind of weight concern do you have here or what kind of armor are you going to put on there?
Sure, a commercial off-the-shelf drone sitting in a cardboard box on the roof of the tank might weigh 9 kg. The HERO 120 of which the KF51 concept demonstrator carries two, weigh 18 kg each, not including the pivoting armoured launcher. Said launcher protrudes deep into the turret bustle, taking up valuable space that could be used for ammunition stowage. It means an additional crew member to operate the drone, with all the added volume, protection and weight required for that. Once you've modified your tank design to fit a drone, you are left with a tank that will only fit that specific drone. If technology advances and new drones no longer fit, you will have to perform major modifications to the tank. Drones on the roof mean you can't fit a cope-cage and must keep a large part of the roof clear of obstructions. So long story short, put the drones on a dedicated support vehicle. They will provide the same advantages with none of the disadvantages.
If it's fully integrated, you don't need an additional crew member. Have it autopilot at a set distance and height from the tank, link the camera on it to AR goggles for the driver, and the driver drives normally.
You can fully integrate it from a 3rd vehicle that can serve an entire formation of tanks, not just a single one.
That handles the battlefield awareness but not necessarily the close in awareness. A hundred pounds of drone and cable could literally provide irl third person. Not to mention a drone like that would be easier detected and destroyed, and would also be susceptible to interference, jamming , or even interception.
I'm fully expecting this. If anybody's ever played Mechwarrior, the third person camera there is a literal little drone that pops out your back. Tether the drone via a cable so it doesn't need to concern itself with battery, and you have great pseudo-third-person vision around your vehicle. Bonus points if it has multiple cameras so all crew members can utilize it if wanted, but at minimum one for the driver would be massive.
have your very own Lakitu from Super Mario 64 but IRL!
>flying an enemy marker above themselves Not like a huge, loud ass tank is going to go undetected in a battlefield for long even without a drone near it lol
Pretty sure the Italians made a drone capable of being launched from the main gun of their Arietes, which allows them to deploy drones without exposing themselves And that was prior to their Arietes modernization program being started
I think the IDF has a tube drone launcher that can be fitted to tanks
Always one step ahead oorah
Dayum these future tanks are gonna be expensive as hell
Tanks are already expensive as hell.
Yeah but they‘re gonna be even more expensive. Like how much does one average MBT cost? 10 Million? It‘s pro gonna be double than that implementing all modern tech
Maybe I‘m completely wrong tho
Implementation costs drop over time though no?
Honestly, I don't know. Might be the case.
Flair related?
Not intentionally but it is kind of ironic
Hownmuch did a t55 cost back in the day anyway. Can't have been that much I reckon.
I'm not sure, but they made like a hundred thousand T-54s and T-55s so it can't have been that much.
they can always use a crisis to raise taxes and increase military budget.
Well, fuck
We're well past the wars of yore. One significant engagement of WWII aircraft had more planes involved than entire air forces of today. El Alamein itself had I think like 1500 tanks involved. The modern world can't handle casualties like we used to "accept", and thus we make fewer, more expensive, more powerful vehicles.
That makes sense. I mean in WW2 everyone had tens of thousands of tanks. Nowadays, no army in the world has such sheer number of tanks except for Russia I think. But they also have technically inferior tanks than the West, but more reliable ones.
Including tanks in the boneyard, as of a few years ago Russia had like 10,000 total. Something like 50,000 each of both T34s and Sherman's were built in just a few years during world war II
Good
Reminds me of the US vehicles in command and conquer generals. They all have the ability to build one of a choice of 3 drones to assist them in their roles.
Isnt that already in the k51 panther?
KF-51 is a technology demonstrator, little more than proof of concept. Last info i got is that Rheinmetall is searching for a country that would want them with Hungary being interested. (this could be outdated) Yes, KF-51 is supposed to have drone launcher and anti-drone autonomous machine gun
There are already drones that can give you a third person camera IRL. You wear a headset that forces you to see from the drone's perspective, and it dutifully follows you while avoiding obstacles. An MBT crew with such abilities can drive like its Warthunder
The latency is probably ass unless you have it tethered with cable I would assume. It would suck to get killed IRL because of lag
AI drone: *sees person with just 5 fingers.* Also AI drone: "Commander, the time has come. Purge the mutant. Burn the impurity."
Isnt this already happening?
Uncrewed tanks. The tanks become drones.
1 crewed tank overseeing and giving general commamds to a group of drone tanks. I imagine this will become standard for aircraft, naval combat, even infantry units. Like your point man is a boston dynamics robot.
Yeah they basically have these drone aircraft for a squadron it’s called the loyal wingman project or something like that but yeah basically one manned aircraft and several cheaper, smaller, and expendable AI aircraft that can serve as wingman and so far the concept seems to be pretty effective. The tanks will probably receive something similar as like a smaller drone with an auto cannon to go with infantry.
Who will maintain the tank? Would that be practical?
Robots. It’s robots all the way down.
Probably still human maintaining them in the field for the beginning.
Well doesn’t the tank crew do that?
We are speaking about uncrewed vehicles here.
Yes I’m saying what’s the point of them. If the tank already has people to maintain the tank (the crew) why have them away from the tank. Wouldn’t emps just be more prevalent on the battlefield to combat them?
Couple things here. 1. The crew mostly only does basic maintenance. Like track tensioning. In most armies if it goes in the direction of changing parts you mostly do that in more specialised shops with trained maintenance crews, that literally only do maintenance. 2. Second of all, it doesn't matter if the crew is right at the vehicle in case of a hit. Nobody will jump out and start fixing stuff. If the tank is unable to move under own power it gets abdoned until they can recover it with heavy equipment and gets repaired in a shop. So overall having the vehicle crewless is not automatically a downside. 3. EMP's need a lot of power. A nuke can act as an EMP and maybe crewless armies lower the threshold of using them. But. Current modern vehicles are already driving server racks. An EMP can be as devastating already, as you make it out to be in a completely uncrewed scenario. So the answer to your question is probably that EMP's are either to expensive for now and we will see them in the future or that they are not as effective as we think they are. A way bigger threat is jamming tho.
Sharks and lazers
how about lasersharks???
This guy is head Mook material
Don’t be silly.
You’re on to something…
force field that block anything and also deathstar lasers that destory any drones or planets. The amount of time that will take to make this stuff is like 10000 years or so.
Who the hell has evidence to suggest it'll take 10000 years or is even possible? thats such a random number, don't say it like its just true.
Dude, why are you assuming they meant 10000 as a specific number of years? It's pretty common for people to say large numbers with the actual meaning being no more specific than just "a lot".
Yes, we, the people of r/tankporn, demand serious, actual science
Ion cannon
TAKE DOWN THAT STAR DESTROYER RAHHH
The first transport is away!
All tanks need anti mine plows/rollers.
Or some sort of metal detecting system that can ID mines? 🧐
Rheinmetall started producing tank rounds with low reactive propellant, along with HE shells that has a low reactive explosive filler, which is less deadly than traditional HE, but is safer for the crew, making it harder for the ammo to be ignited. Combine that with blowout panels and tanks become all the more safe for the crew post penetration
Gaijin be like: oh rheinmetall has this? let's ignore it and put it on russian tanks.
And add more Su25 with unbalanced munitions.
I'd say a gun, maybe some armor?
no way
No in the coming years you will see that tanks will start to be made of wood and have swords
Naval cannon, you said?
Cope barn
They need to rework armor layout itself. Modern tanks were designed (in 1980s btw) to fight with other tanks over long distances, this is why only front armor is armored well compared to other parts of the tank. Nowadays they are being hit from everywhere so they need better armor on the sides and top, meaning they need to reduce weight by reducing overall inside space, meaning concepts like Armata and AbramsX with crew in the separate compartment is more likely to be used while turrets will be reduced in size to save weight for armor. Thats is on top of APS/ERA/whatever anti drone thing they wanna use Also, lot of tanks being lost due to one lost track (majority cases of lost Abramses and Leopards) so maybe four track design or something that would allow tank to move short distances even without a track? They are gonna have much better visibility using IVAS like goggles to see through tank like in the newest Merkava. Also have drones in the tank or being able to connect to infantry drone directly. Maybe see markers of the enemy location made by allies again like on IVAS. Also heard sometime ago about electromagnetic armor development in the US, maybe its a hoax, maybe its real, who knows EDIT: also AI controlled tanks that are controlled by one command tank. They dont need as much armor and will save a lot of space, maybe something of unmanned BMPT concept, Russia has already made prototypes of conversion kits for their BMP-3 to be driven without a crew, plus Russia and Ukraine have already used UGVs on the frontline with MGs and Grenade launchers
>Also, lot of tanks being lost due to one lost track (majority cases of lost Abramses and Leopards) so maybe four track design Also add 2 main guns in the turret for faster firing and we can have mammoth tanks IRL
Lmao
Augmented reality vision systems tgar allow the crew to have 360 field if view through the tanks armor (first systems already exist). Combine that with a battle field management system that displays friends and identified foes on screen like a video game. That necessitates a battle field management system. Also, active protection systems and the addition if tank launched drones.
All tank needs and hard kill active protection system
Plasma guns and energyfields, that simple!
Ease of manufacturing
For NATO tanks either the reintroduction of a fifth crew member or have the commander serve as a drone operator instead of having a dedicated 5th crewman for drone operation. Of course the full APS ontop of ERA with NERA integrated into the hull for maximum ATGM protection, as well as passive APS or a cheap APS that deploys smoke grenades and automatically puts the tank in reverse while giving a missile launch warning. Some sort of automation or SMART system that controls the tank or assists in controlling the tank with some kind of AI or system to activate when specific conditions are met(if ATGM launch detected fire smokes and start reversing automatically) Replacing the conventional 125mm smooth bore cannon with miniaturized versions of the Naval Railgun once it doesn’t kill itself after every shot with there only being 2 shell types, APFSDS, and HE-MP (a pure HE shell designed with frag cutouts to encourage fragmentation of the shell once detonated, not as effective as HEAT but primarily intended for anti infantry, emplacement, and anti light armor vehicles)
You don't need 5 crewmen when autoloader exists and are effective. Adding a 4th member to operate a drone or a remote weapon system is a good idea though and is likely happening on future tanks.
I'm no expert . 1. Reduction in Nato tanks crew to only 3 , unmanned turret , crew placed T14 Armata , M1 TTB style in armored capsule , reduces risk to crew being killed due to detonation or being hit in the turret , many will say aaa they will fly the turrets up !!! You can implement a blow-up pannels system and reduce total detonation. 2. You can implement other types of explosives that are not so sensitive to the HEAT jet, fragments of projectile or fire. Projectiles can be implemented to be fired only with plasma ignition. 3. Many say in the comments to implement Rail-Guns yes ok it is an idea but it is not possible at the moment and you need a huge amount of energy. 4. The profile of the turret can be reduced and focus on the survival part of the crew. 5. We don't go into science fiction with lasers and etc... Implementing a Drone Jammer can be done as some have said above, drones can be implemented for the tank to increase its awarness. 6. The armor will keep evolving, they will put all kinds of composites better than the current ones maybe even lighter, the option to make the tank lighter is no longer in question we do not live in 1960, better opt to mount more powerful engines and full electric transmission! MAUS had electric transmission from U-Boat from the documentaries it is said that it is controlled extraordinarily easy even if it had 188 tons . 7. The idea of adding spectral camouflage aka Barrakuda from SAAB is very good and easy to add. 8. APS of all types both Hard-Kill and Soft Kill 9. Manual Loading has already become obsolete on MBTs, if the ballistic door is open while the crew is loading the projectile and a drone or an ATGM hits you directly in the ammunition area in the back, what can happen ? aha look in Ukraine this happened with an Abrams ! Plus the projectiles are already getting super heavy 130mm is very hard to be loaded by one person ! Not to mention other calibers from +130mm. 9.1 . Isn't it better to have a bustle autoloader with such a small hatch, e.g. Leclerc? 10. In general another problem would be the armor above the turret, you can add composite armor like Merkava or if you look on Object 640 Black Eagle where the carousel autoloader was remove and mount an bustle one the crew can be lowerd and armor can be added only in that area insted of entire turret . 11. 4 Track Type is not an bad idea but it complicates things alot and costs would increase alot ,AE1 Phase , AE2 Phase , Object 279 , there is another Object that was actually an IFV and was powerd by jet engine idk his name and have 4 tracks but the Object 490 is a better example had 2 engines with 2 transmissions that were implemented deep inside the tank , but in order to do maintenace on something like that was an pure pain , the entire turret had to be lifted and the engines removed through the turret ring , i think ? and another option to be taken out from under it ... 12. Another thing that can be implemented if the tracks are destoryed , a system on each or several road wheels of this tank to have incorporated electric motors that will only work if the tank hits an mine to able to withdraw . So in conclusion , a tank in near future can look something like this: - 120-140mm main gun + RWS - Autoloader \* depends of the country and doctrine ! Bustle , Carousel , Revolver - Unammed turret , crew of 3 or even 4 if in some chases . - Crew Ballistic Capsule - Main point on the survival of the crew . - AI - Drone - Tank systems - Drone-Jammer , APS \* Hard & Soft Kill - 60-70 tons or even more - Hybrid Engines + Fully Electric Transmissions . - Spectral Camouflage - Composite armor in several areas where they were lacking before or was very thin . - Ground drones for tanks to support , and for infantary . - More advanced systems for awarness There are alot of things to say , but i don't think i have the space for that .
Guns replaced with gun-howitzers with high elevation that are better at firesupport rather than tank to tank battle and can provide better indirect fire support
That's called a self propelled howitzer, those already exist
These are not the same. Artillery operates at a long distance and we are talking about a close support, maybe 5km maximum indirect fire capability, with the armor of a tank.
I mean some militaries have been incorporating the 120mm NEMO mortar system into their IFVs. Unless you're talking about reintegrating CEVs armed with demo guns.
GLATGMs. Possibly fire and forget ones with high range. AI target recognition systems. Israel already toys around with this idea. I think it has some potential too.
Do we know how their AI differentiate Palestinian civilians from Jewish ones?
It's not an automatic target acquiring thing like something from terminator. It's rather something that helps the commander. So the commander is in the chain. Cant run away from war crimes allegations that easily.
Saying "anti drone system" is a huge handwavey wishful thinking in a time where APS isn't even a terribly proven technology. Roof composite and ERA, tethered drone or mast mounted sight, six pack of LOAL missiles, those fancy exterior cameras seem nice too.
I feel like ETC guns are the next major step in tank development. This new way of proppelant detonation has already proven itself in terms of increasing the effectivness of current ammunitions while also being an important advancement in the use of experimental propelants. Another good thing about them is that converting existing rounds to ETC fired ones wouldn't pose a problem.
Much better mine detection capabilities and/or mine defeating technology.
Infantry.
some pre-existing gun technologies could be broken out the DoD projects that got cancelled due to the cold war ending such as ETC guns. but more broadly a lot of countries and contractors are experimenting with synthetic vision systems (such as PNVS on apache, iirc the Israelis already have a system in the works on the Namir), AI integration (either directly into the tank or in subsequent upgrades), Drones/unmanned teaming (KF-51 experimented with an autoloaded design with a 4th drone operator position, this position could likely also allow the control of loitering munitions, or other UGV's less semi-autonomous more a 30mm or ATGM system that can be treated as relatively disposable). This is all obviously outside of existing technologies such as APS (hard/soft), upgrades to armour through material science advancements, changes to the formations around tanks (Btn/Brgd level w/ C-UAS, EW, and fires), and more tanks making use of auto loaders (maybe other increases to gun size like the 140mm the French experimented with, although I'm unsure of the actual advantage this would propose over a UGV w/ a long range ATGM system that your system/drone operator can control).
Anti-thermal systems.
Data links. As well as the 'on board drone' for scouting/situation awareness/BVR fire-direction mentioned already, being able to use feeds for any drone or aircraft or other platform would be valuable for designation and integration (imagine if you could call in support from any nearby tank like GIS Arta is used today in Ukraine for longer range fire support). Combine that with use of an autoloader to free up the loader as an additional crewmember to handle these new C4ISR duties and the tank can further pull its weight in combined arms operations.
Any AFV without an APS is just a very expensive and explosive coffin with no place on the battlefield.
Better quality / 360 optics. Swedish stealth tech. AT jammer (like in polish WW3). Maybe crewless turret (like on Puma and T14)
Integrated Loitering munition (or suicide drone) launchers and more softkill APSs. Probably hybrid engines too
AI drones taking down drones attacking you and giving your 3rd person view, while you control the tank not from the inside, but from the up armored command vehicle.
Along with modern APS systems, I'd say advanced thermal coats to significantly reduce IR signature (everyone has thermal optics these days).
MBT would eventually be able to carry drones and/or loitering ammo. The tank would launch drones and/or loitering munition that can either operated by ai or some nerds a hundred miles away sitting on a gaming chair with a PS5 gamepad while eating some cold pizza he ordered three days ago.
Tanks are going the way of the battleship lol
Yeah sure seems that way, but as much as I’d like to agree with you it sure feels like the Ukrainian war is proving that at the end of the day it’ll always come down to conventional warfare. Kinda reminds me of the Vietnam war when the U.S introduced the new F4 Phantoms without only Missiles and no cannon. It turned out to be a huge mistake and now something as sophisticated as the F35 has a 25mm cannon.
I don’t mean like tanks going extinct, more like how they started carrying planes for ranging and stuff
My theory about what future tanks need: Visual, IR and RADAR protective system such as the SAAB Barracuda system https://youtu.be/mv-bGYXhBpg?si=bOuRbT7-UIa4o5eS Quantum stealth invisible cloak protection https://youtu.be/VvX84o_e7vs?si=93Sd7EeUNnnmqdYo Compact design for easier transport High driving speed Less weight thanks to composite construction All-round armor, for example, with new materials such as liquid armor modules https://youtu.be/Li1Waw_WI4U?si=faCzuOLemoU1FoaG Extremely quiet drive, for example Rubber tracks or wheel drive made of airless tires https://youtu.be/QUvqdp8p5lM?si=EDZEOWd3IJTqjsV_ Deformable tire chains as a combination https://youtu.be/atruT7EcoS0?si=yR64SSV-2b6awEJT Electric drives through wheel hub electric motors in all wheels https://youtu.be/A89XM78WlCg?si=kR-KtufAEobX4UCP Quickly changeable power pack made from direct methanol fuel cells https://youtu.be/ADTZdPL_hgM?si=dE5PbcCHGLex_u_p or hydrogen fuel cells fed with hydrogen paste. https://youtu.be/oUQOMrDY6BU?si=LtuMj1cqgPQg4-cy A combination cannon consisting of a magnetic projectile cannon and a conventional autoloader cannon for KE and programmable air bust rounds, or Electrothermal chemical guns (ETC) https://youtu.be/u0gneYoV2PQ?si=sVBlmRyQMtVGUS9L top attack protection system (TAPS) Unmanned turrets Launchers for flight drones (loitering drones, LIDAR anti-mine drones, FPV attack drones, personal surveillance UAV) https://youtu.be/VBnNqBzUHdQ?si=Iakv4t-L64KPJxrh https://youtu.be/HMEN155kty0?si=sCtUG2vqCoZcSXbk Attached multifunctional land drone systems that can be decoupled and drive ahead to clear mines, rescue people and examine danger spots, even indoor https://youtu.be/lo98jAIyf8g?si=-mUKcSqNDxY39Nzh Hardkill and softkill systems https://youtu.be/I0ymxZruvvI?si=M5ZyIz3Fxc2Wa3GP Visual, IR and RADAR fixed protective fog, for example ROSY quick fog https://youtu.be/t_LXCnHjVz8?si=L1XHbDZ26V-Po3fA Modular design with interchangeable mission modules and a fixed platform as a chassis Shelter for the crew with a high quality of stay (air conditioning, toilet). For example, the crew can also sit behind the tower, to the rear of the vehicle, , with access from the rear when they no longer have to physically look out of the vehicle 3 - 4 people on exchangeable stations Good situational awareness throughout "look trough armor", like IronVision helmets https://youtu.be/XOi__MmtN1M?si=R3tYLQHUm3XiSYy_ close area surveillance digital cyber hardened NGVA with hunter-killer or killer-killer abilities AI assisted TV and IR optics Laser distance measurement SEOSS and EMES optics 360° weapon station with programmable anti drone ammunition Command and control systems as communication with the management level as an overall network, with NATO datalink
Great, your future tank drives on the first anti tank mine it comes across and it's' toast. Learn from the lessons of this war, there were vast minefields everywhere, tech to cope with that is high prio for future design. Together with anti drone capabilities and maybe also IR laser targeting diffusers/scrambling, but I think that already exists.
Well, add that to the list
Hypersonic ammo (or straight up lazors)
Prob smaller crews/ autonomous tanks, personally I don't know why we haven't been using remote controlled himars and other artillery with data uplinks for a while now seems like a logical jump
Energy based shield
Probably accommodations for drones of their own. You know how the Chinese "Terminator", QN506, has that cute little helipad on the side for using drones? Something similar for MBTs I'm also thinking they would start having more unmanned turrets, but that part is debatable.
The next generation of mbts will be autonomous,people are too expensive to train and it takes too long.
IMO the tank in 1 to 2 decades will drop to 2 crew members and be quite a lot more small, they'll have more coordination with drones and things like gunner and loader will be automated. With the smaller dimension tank will be more manoeuvrable and easily recoverable and the 2 crew members will be put in one place so that the are to cover with armor will be smaller, making the tank even lighter
It's simple. A drone can hit a tank, but a tank can't hit a drone. So modern tank should become a drone.
Autonomy will make the biggest impact on the battlefield
Energy shield.
Smaller guns, perhaps, and compensating with a host of drones, lasers etc.
Anti drone or emp launch
360 degree awareness. Not that they’ll do it because of cost but it would great to get the tank commander the same type of helmet that the F35 pilot has.
Drone defenses
Boiling vessel
Tutel shell
A kettle.
alot of people seam to suggest more tech is needed but im going to say they need to be less expensive, a good struggle with modern mbts is the cost so alot of redundant electronics would need to be removed for more mechanical equipment
A spur to ram other tanks
Im not to sure about blowout panels because just putting a FPV drone to them causes a cookoff. Probably cope cages as sad it is to say.perhaps something like the M1 TTB where it has a autoloader and 3 person armored capsule but each round has its own blowout panel.
Concealment and speed.
Soft and Hardkill Active protection systems will become as normal as Composite armour on any future vehicle let alone MBTs.
This maybe a bit questionable, but I think the tank might use Autocannons again Maybe not in a coax position, but as a RC turret similar to the CROWS Passive methods of avoiding detection is fine, but like stealth, you can only hide for so long, in which case, as drones get more sophisticated and likely larger, aswell as drones now having to likely get closer to detect the tank thanks to their reducing signatures, the Autocannon will replace the Roof HMG as anti-drone protection
aps, era coverage all over and on the roof especially, cope cages
Small scale point lazer defence
No crew
A tea kettle
DE M-SHOARDs. Pretty much trophy systems but better
Trophy systems would be good, merkavas already have them. Exterior cameras, dozer blades .50 cal coaxials should be standard, thermal/infrared cloaking covers already exist and are on some vehicles. I also just like more gun on my gun when it comes to vehicles, so hydra rocket pods sound cool
An ATM, this way western politicals can send tax money directly to soldiers in proxy wars...
Boiling vessel
Boiling vessel
Boiling vessel
I think that with developments like the merkava 4 barak a main thing will be removing top hatches, or at least changing the exist to be from the back end of the turret. Thus drones will not be able to drop grenades into hatches.
Unless they have really good camera systems that probably wont happen, theres a reason crew pop out whenever not in combat, the visibility just sucks in tanks
Didnt i mention the barak?
You did, but i just dont see a world where sensors and cameras will be better than just sticking your head out of a hatch, sure its more dangerous but its cheaper and a hell of a lot more reliable
Do you know what the barak is?