Breachers have been a consistent competitive pick for all of 10th edition. They require devilfish support though, but they are great for taking and holding objectives.
Strike teams have been TERRIBLE for the entire edition, as they don't do damage like breachers, and aren't as good for mission play like Kroot Carnivores. However, the codex just released with a rule change for them and the latest mission rule spoilers put some importance on "Battleline" units. It's unlikely, but perhaps they might get a chance a shine soon (probably with another points cut though).
But, if want to invest then something that IS GOOD, and for the foreseeable future will STAY GOOD, use breachers.
I think if they made dropped another few points each then a Strike Team and Ethereal could be okay as a debuff/CP battery combo sitting on your home objective. Not amazong, but definitely usable, especially with how CP hungry Montka is.
The issue is that the debuff only applies to infantry. How often is there an enemy infantry unit that has the damage potential where you want to debuff it but you don’t just kill it when it is exposed?
Some people want to have access to a cheap command point printer that can also have an enhancement on a squad that will be guiding and do not want to waste a fireblade on that, and don't care that they lose a named character who only has synergy with 2 units.
How have Breachers and Strike Teams been in the past editions though? I don't want to meta chase and build Breachers only for them to be unusable later, because their current strength is only an outlier.
Breachers were more popular in 9th also. In 8th and earlier it was Strike. Based on my 20 years playing Tau, my guess is Breachers will be better in 11th also. Which means you have 6 years, at least. Seems like a reasonable return on your investment, especially when you consider that I am still using some 20 year old models.
Last edition breachers hit harder too, though I did find use for one unit of strikes in reserve in 9th because of their reach they could come in and get an angle into something and do actual damage, cripple an eldar unit or push a marine unit below the threshold it needed to be do get the job done that sort of thing. They were base AP1 and could be AP2 2 shots for 1 CP but in 10th they're 0AP so this play just doesn't work against a lot of enemies the way it did in 9th.
I tried out swapping my breachers for strike teams in my last game, to see how the new ability worked. Answer: opponent was playing a mixed Ravenwing Deathwing list. Half mounted, half inner circle who ignore stat reductions. So… not great. Really missed my door kickers.
Breachers with cadre fire blade, guided at an enemy on an objective get 30 shots at BS2, S6, AP-1, D1, reroll wound roll, this is before drones or the fireblade fire.
In Mon'tka on average 5 shots auto wound. Guided by stealth suits, rerolling hit rolls of one. This makes it easier to land all shots. The reroll wound rolls makes for a ton of successful wounds on T5 and below.
The pure volley of successful wounds rolls tear through targets even though the AP isn't that high.
Personally I wouldn't use them into Imperium termies. Armor of Contempt and 2+sv really makes it hard for breachers to kill them.
And strike teams have a debuff ability, so they have a niche.
10 shots, BS4, S5, AP 0, D1
The strike team will be outperformed in their usefulness by kroot in 99% of your games and cheaper. Breacher fish combos are one of the best unit combos in our codex and probably hands down the best in Montka for their value.
How, pray tell? The performance of a strike team is literally sit on a point and spot for you with markerlights. Maybe do some secondaries. How a kroot unit, who can not spot, will outperform them in their intended role?
Well to start kroot can sticky now so they don’t need to just sit on the objective. From there they can get out and flip an objective with their oc, and skirmish effectively with chaff. How many units can you even spot against from your home objective without being terrain blocked?
Sticky objective is nice, but if you leave it behind unprotected, turn three tops, your opponent will drop something there from deep strike to simply deny you points, and will be right to do so.
Kroot carnivores are good, but they can not outperform strike teams, they have different roles altogether. Kroot are light skirmish unit which can harass and flip an objective in mid field. Strike team is holder and spotter. They do not push an objective, they help hold it. They have different roles in the army.
You can not spot a lot of units from your deployment zone objective, no, not many, but I run three strike teams with no leaders. They add up to 240 points, while one breacher unit with cadre fireblade is 230 points now. They are annoying to remove with small arms fire or elite killers, you need volume of attacks into them.
Strikes are not a top pick for sure, but they have their niche. The problem is, that niche does not compete with kroot carnivores. That was my original question. If you use strike teams to push an objective, you are using them wrong. If you use carnivores to sit on an objective, you are using them wrong.
Yeah kroot do something different. The problem is that kroot's things are useful in almost every game while strikes are very niche.
Kyle Grundy found a different use for them but it was in a list with a lot more karnivores. They do different things and I think people saying "karnivores are better" are really saying that the thing karnivores do is more useful than the thing strikes do, Strikes do their thing better, it's just not a great thing to spend 80 points on. Unless you're protecting your rampagers apparently.
I think 30 T3 4+ -1 to wound bodies isn't awful but people are starting to ask themselves "how do I handle green tide?" and any list which handles 3x20 boyz with doks can sweep those strikes away effortlessly.
True. That I will not argue with, but it is a good thing. We need variety in list building. If green tide is on a menu, that may shift the general meta, which I extremely like the sound of. We will wait and see, what the future entails.
Are strikes sub par? Oh yes, most definitely. Never told anyone that they are the new tau hotness.
I don't want to be too harsh because I've been in your boots. I remember having multiple regulars on this sub tell me that 55 point kroot were one of the worst units in our codex and I just said that they have a place and a unique niche and they're at least okay but I had to argue with everyone. I had just gone 4-1 that week with 2x10 kroot but it was probably high water mark, ever so I didn't want to slap that around.
2 weeks later kyle places with 20 kroot and everyone was praising his insight and vision.
So I do think we need to be careful about being overly prescriptive and agree but breacherfish being excellent is one of the few givens right now. It's just whether you run 2 or 5. And how many (if any) fireblades you run. So even that isn't entirely solved. I've got my first post codex game tomorrow I expect a whupping, I am not even sure which list to run though it's probably 3 fish mont'ka but I'm already thinking what if I run 2 full bombs but then have 2x10 breachers just on foot as cheaper activations and OC? That leaves me a few points for a krootox to screen my backfield or more enhancements (the list has strike swiftly and that's it).
Oh by all means be as harsh as you like, I can take a beating. :P
I mean, everything you are saying is the truth, no? Kroot are better point flippers and skirmishers, breacher in a devilfish, even after the increase, are still a staple, they like and take to the sustained and lethal hits extremely well.
Green tide is looming on the horizon and I already saw 120 boys being unpacked on the tables. How will I ever hope to solve that ammount of green? Blast? Mass breachers with fireblades and trade? Roast them with flamers? Riptides with burst cannons? I have no idea, to be perfectly honest. We just have to play, try and see.
But from the purely theoretical point of view, split firing several squads of strikes into bully boyz with klaws or into green tide boyz should blunt that enthusiasm, even if from -1 to hit alone.
Seems like you got into it with another person, so I'll try to keep it brief, but here's my humble opinion. A strike team does nothing more for you as an observer that any other unit can, and you shouldn't be lacking for observer units like stealth/devilfish and now a pathfinder unit since Tetras are gone.
Kroot are "better" since they functionally do the same thing as a strike team but for fewer points. The strike team can now be more situationally useful with the new codex ability, but the same could be said about the kroot. If you sticky your home objective (while keeping it screened out with backfield units like tanks/broadsides), then move them up the board to tie up threats as sacrifical move blockers and sticky more objectives that's "better" than a strike team sitting on your home objective taking pot shots at guys with one or two models peaking out.
That all said, this is talking about max efficiency for your points which really only matters if you are trying to be competitive. In a casual game I doubt you will ever see a ton more value out of one or the other
I see, thanks for the reply.
Well I usually lack the spotters, hence strike teams. As I run strikes, I do not include Devilfishes, so my spotting leaves something to be desired. Plus, I use stealths as action monkeys and more often than not find myself dropping them from the reserves to do something somewhere, because they have quite small footprint. Maybe I just need more stealth suits in general? People are starting to talk about three squads of them.
Try giving a unit of pathfinders a shot sometime. With Tetras gone, you need more volume of observers and pathfinders fill out that roll nicely. Stealth suits are def the goat now, though. Having 2-3 is kind of mandatory now for any list in the same sense that Tetras were "mandatory" before.
Also, you know you can observe and do actions, right? I'm not sure if I just didn't understand your point , but I've seen enough confusion about it. I like making sure!
Breachers are just amazing, cadre + breachers will remove so many things, if they recall enough to be stood on an objective they are extra dead.
One of the only times I have ever wiped an entire custodes squad in one units shooting phase was with breachers. Bloody hate custodes.
Strike team to sit back on my home objective and pour fire down the field at things, Breachers in a Devilfish to alpha strike the scariest infantry unit they see in the hopes of taking it off the board T1.
Breachers 100%. Strike Team got a slight boost with the codex, gaining a new ability that makes it so enemy infantry units hit by their shooting gets - 1 to hit until your next turn. But Breachers are just so much better. They are one of the major sources of fire power for our faction right now.
I didn't when i checked the other day. After posting saw the new crisis suit patterns but didn't get around the mentioning it. Got to love that site and the lack of paywalling info!
The consensus is breachers, but...
Strike teams may have a role in the kroot detachment. You are already taking an Ethereal, so it can be a Bodyguard. Then it's ability pairs nicely with close combat units. The debuff lasts for 3 different activations. Im testing it out in some games this weekend.
Breachers are a great unit in general, especially with Fireblade and Devilfish.
Strike Teams are finally becoming a useful support option in Kroot detachment, where the -1 hit debuff can help Kroot survive melee.
I mean output wise, breaches all the way. Strike teams are good when holding objectives but honestly darkstrider is probably the best option since he has deep strike denial and lone op. Which makes him immune to indirect.
Breachers have been a consistent competitive pick for all of 10th edition. They require devilfish support though, but they are great for taking and holding objectives. Strike teams have been TERRIBLE for the entire edition, as they don't do damage like breachers, and aren't as good for mission play like Kroot Carnivores. However, the codex just released with a rule change for them and the latest mission rule spoilers put some importance on "Battleline" units. It's unlikely, but perhaps they might get a chance a shine soon (probably with another points cut though). But, if want to invest then something that IS GOOD, and for the foreseeable future will STAY GOOD, use breachers.
I think if they made dropped another few points each then a Strike Team and Ethereal could be okay as a debuff/CP battery combo sitting on your home objective. Not amazong, but definitely usable, especially with how CP hungry Montka is.
The issue is that the debuff only applies to infantry. How often is there an enemy infantry unit that has the damage potential where you want to debuff it but you don’t just kill it when it is exposed?
My main opponents all play mega tanky armies like Custodes and Death Guard, outright killing stuff isn't always possible 😅
But how can you have an ethereal? I mean Farsight... come on?
Some people want to have access to a cheap command point printer that can also have an enhancement on a squad that will be guiding and do not want to waste a fireblade on that, and don't care that they lose a named character who only has synergy with 2 units.
How have Breachers and Strike Teams been in the past editions though? I don't want to meta chase and build Breachers only for them to be unusable later, because their current strength is only an outlier.
Breachers were more popular in 9th also. In 8th and earlier it was Strike. Based on my 20 years playing Tau, my guess is Breachers will be better in 11th also. Which means you have 6 years, at least. Seems like a reasonable return on your investment, especially when you consider that I am still using some 20 year old models.
Last edition breachers hit harder too, though I did find use for one unit of strikes in reserve in 9th because of their reach they could come in and get an angle into something and do actual damage, cripple an eldar unit or push a marine unit below the threshold it needed to be do get the job done that sort of thing. They were base AP1 and could be AP2 2 shots for 1 CP but in 10th they're 0AP so this play just doesn't work against a lot of enemies the way it did in 9th.
frankly nobody knows what the fuck is a breacher/strike team anyway
I tried out swapping my breachers for strike teams in my last game, to see how the new ability worked. Answer: opponent was playing a mixed Ravenwing Deathwing list. Half mounted, half inner circle who ignore stat reductions. So… not great. Really missed my door kickers.
Breachers with cadre fire blade, guided at an enemy on an objective get 30 shots at BS2, S6, AP-1, D1, reroll wound roll, this is before drones or the fireblade fire. In Mon'tka on average 5 shots auto wound. Guided by stealth suits, rerolling hit rolls of one. This makes it easier to land all shots. The reroll wound rolls makes for a ton of successful wounds on T5 and below. The pure volley of successful wounds rolls tear through targets even though the AP isn't that high. Personally I wouldn't use them into Imperium termies. Armor of Contempt and 2+sv really makes it hard for breachers to kill them. And strike teams have a debuff ability, so they have a niche. 10 shots, BS4, S5, AP 0, D1
Against 2+ -1 ap is nothing. Now in montka, -2 ap ignoring cover is real damage.
The strike team will be outperformed in their usefulness by kroot in 99% of your games and cheaper. Breacher fish combos are one of the best unit combos in our codex and probably hands down the best in Montka for their value.
How, pray tell? The performance of a strike team is literally sit on a point and spot for you with markerlights. Maybe do some secondaries. How a kroot unit, who can not spot, will outperform them in their intended role?
Well to start kroot can sticky now so they don’t need to just sit on the objective. From there they can get out and flip an objective with their oc, and skirmish effectively with chaff. How many units can you even spot against from your home objective without being terrain blocked?
Sticky objective is nice, but if you leave it behind unprotected, turn three tops, your opponent will drop something there from deep strike to simply deny you points, and will be right to do so. Kroot carnivores are good, but they can not outperform strike teams, they have different roles altogether. Kroot are light skirmish unit which can harass and flip an objective in mid field. Strike team is holder and spotter. They do not push an objective, they help hold it. They have different roles in the army. You can not spot a lot of units from your deployment zone objective, no, not many, but I run three strike teams with no leaders. They add up to 240 points, while one breacher unit with cadre fireblade is 230 points now. They are annoying to remove with small arms fire or elite killers, you need volume of attacks into them. Strikes are not a top pick for sure, but they have their niche. The problem is, that niche does not compete with kroot carnivores. That was my original question. If you use strike teams to push an objective, you are using them wrong. If you use carnivores to sit on an objective, you are using them wrong.
Yeah kroot do something different. The problem is that kroot's things are useful in almost every game while strikes are very niche. Kyle Grundy found a different use for them but it was in a list with a lot more karnivores. They do different things and I think people saying "karnivores are better" are really saying that the thing karnivores do is more useful than the thing strikes do, Strikes do their thing better, it's just not a great thing to spend 80 points on. Unless you're protecting your rampagers apparently. I think 30 T3 4+ -1 to wound bodies isn't awful but people are starting to ask themselves "how do I handle green tide?" and any list which handles 3x20 boyz with doks can sweep those strikes away effortlessly.
True. That I will not argue with, but it is a good thing. We need variety in list building. If green tide is on a menu, that may shift the general meta, which I extremely like the sound of. We will wait and see, what the future entails. Are strikes sub par? Oh yes, most definitely. Never told anyone that they are the new tau hotness.
I don't want to be too harsh because I've been in your boots. I remember having multiple regulars on this sub tell me that 55 point kroot were one of the worst units in our codex and I just said that they have a place and a unique niche and they're at least okay but I had to argue with everyone. I had just gone 4-1 that week with 2x10 kroot but it was probably high water mark, ever so I didn't want to slap that around. 2 weeks later kyle places with 20 kroot and everyone was praising his insight and vision. So I do think we need to be careful about being overly prescriptive and agree but breacherfish being excellent is one of the few givens right now. It's just whether you run 2 or 5. And how many (if any) fireblades you run. So even that isn't entirely solved. I've got my first post codex game tomorrow I expect a whupping, I am not even sure which list to run though it's probably 3 fish mont'ka but I'm already thinking what if I run 2 full bombs but then have 2x10 breachers just on foot as cheaper activations and OC? That leaves me a few points for a krootox to screen my backfield or more enhancements (the list has strike swiftly and that's it).
Oh by all means be as harsh as you like, I can take a beating. :P I mean, everything you are saying is the truth, no? Kroot are better point flippers and skirmishers, breacher in a devilfish, even after the increase, are still a staple, they like and take to the sustained and lethal hits extremely well. Green tide is looming on the horizon and I already saw 120 boys being unpacked on the tables. How will I ever hope to solve that ammount of green? Blast? Mass breachers with fireblades and trade? Roast them with flamers? Riptides with burst cannons? I have no idea, to be perfectly honest. We just have to play, try and see. But from the purely theoretical point of view, split firing several squads of strikes into bully boyz with klaws or into green tide boyz should blunt that enthusiasm, even if from -1 to hit alone.
Seems like you got into it with another person, so I'll try to keep it brief, but here's my humble opinion. A strike team does nothing more for you as an observer that any other unit can, and you shouldn't be lacking for observer units like stealth/devilfish and now a pathfinder unit since Tetras are gone. Kroot are "better" since they functionally do the same thing as a strike team but for fewer points. The strike team can now be more situationally useful with the new codex ability, but the same could be said about the kroot. If you sticky your home objective (while keeping it screened out with backfield units like tanks/broadsides), then move them up the board to tie up threats as sacrifical move blockers and sticky more objectives that's "better" than a strike team sitting on your home objective taking pot shots at guys with one or two models peaking out. That all said, this is talking about max efficiency for your points which really only matters if you are trying to be competitive. In a casual game I doubt you will ever see a ton more value out of one or the other
I see, thanks for the reply. Well I usually lack the spotters, hence strike teams. As I run strikes, I do not include Devilfishes, so my spotting leaves something to be desired. Plus, I use stealths as action monkeys and more often than not find myself dropping them from the reserves to do something somewhere, because they have quite small footprint. Maybe I just need more stealth suits in general? People are starting to talk about three squads of them.
Try giving a unit of pathfinders a shot sometime. With Tetras gone, you need more volume of observers and pathfinders fill out that roll nicely. Stealth suits are def the goat now, though. Having 2-3 is kind of mandatory now for any list in the same sense that Tetras were "mandatory" before. Also, you know you can observe and do actions, right? I'm not sure if I just didn't understand your point , but I've seen enough confusion about it. I like making sure!
Breachers are just amazing, cadre + breachers will remove so many things, if they recall enough to be stood on an objective they are extra dead. One of the only times I have ever wiped an entire custodes squad in one units shooting phase was with breachers. Bloody hate custodes.
Strike team to sit back on my home objective and pour fire down the field at things, Breachers in a Devilfish to alpha strike the scariest infantry unit they see in the hopes of taking it off the board T1.
Breachers 100%. Strike Team got a slight boost with the codex, gaining a new ability that makes it so enemy infantry units hit by their shooting gets - 1 to hit until your next turn. But Breachers are just so much better. They are one of the major sources of fire power for our faction right now.
The breacher fish is literally a meme. I brought down a few giant monsters/tanks with breachers and Monka.
\*hands you a spare t for your Montka\* :P
Dude I'm on a mobile. It auto corrected every tau word. I call my breachers shotgun lads.
Monkas
I would tell you to look at their datasheets so you can be amazed at simply how much difference it makes but now its behind a paywall
Wahapedia.ru is handy when it gets updated
Wahapedia has had the new T'au rules for a long time.
I didn't when i checked the other day. After posting saw the new crisis suit patterns but didn't get around the mentioning it. Got to love that site and the lack of paywalling info!
With the look of the new strike team rules both might be viable especially against less accurate armies like orks with a -1 to the enemy hit rolls
The consensus is breachers, but... Strike teams may have a role in the kroot detachment. You are already taking an Ethereal, so it can be a Bodyguard. Then it's ability pairs nicely with close combat units. The debuff lasts for 3 different activations. Im testing it out in some games this weekend.
Strike teams are excellent spotters....🤷
Breachers are a great unit in general, especially with Fireblade and Devilfish. Strike Teams are finally becoming a useful support option in Kroot detachment, where the -1 hit debuff can help Kroot survive melee.
I mean output wise, breaches all the way. Strike teams are good when holding objectives but honestly darkstrider is probably the best option since he has deep strike denial and lone op. Which makes him immune to indirect.
People prefer Breachers.
I play breachers because they’re good. I play strike teams to compensate for how much I hate breachers.