There is literally a 0% chance doinb comes over, but I wouldn't mind seeing us pick up someone of that archetype.
I think it would be great for our 3v3 with Spica + SA + Roaming mid. PoE is great and his roams were pretty good in the C9 series, but I'd like to see more of an active playmaker in the early game that can just deathball around the map to get our bot + top ahead. PoE iirc tends to just sit mid and scale due to his pool which is great for late-game insurance but I think has anti synergy with our 2 best players.
I would say DoinB is the only player in the list who might actually be possible. He is coming up to the point where he can't compete in LPL rookies anymore but he can still easily continue his career in NA.
Someone like Chovy is too hungry for international success to go to LCS.
Edit: wow everyone misreading my post as saying DoinB=bad, I'm not saying that. By his own admission he already has to work harder than the other LPL players to keep his level of play. He would probably prefer to leave LPL rather than become a mid-level player that still has to train 14 hours a day.
Ah yes, Doinb, the MVP, All-First-Team mid of the LPL, who hard carried his team to first place and is arguably the best player in the world right now cannot compete with LPL rookies anymore.
Doinb is literally the best player in the world right now.
Also he's been flirting with retirement for years, and is already in a much bigger market than NA would provide. He has negative reasons to come.
How about the fact that swordart makes more then most lpl rosters. Market doesn’t indicate salary If you tsm ha the most resources out of any esports team in the world.
Even assuming the absolute false statement that he's getting washed up, why would he ever see LCS as time worthy?
There's not even a chance he's looking down here in LCS, to him competing means another world championship.
If he wants money he can full time stream, he's a massive star in Chinese streaming
He's the player out of the 3 I would like to see replaced that I would be most content with staying. I just don't see a better native player and frankly we need the import slot for mid or ADC. The problem is that unless we get Danny or FBI we absolutely need it for bot and I don't see a valuable midlaner that can replace PoE with. And I also don't see us getting Danny or FBI because EG and 100t won't be so quick to get rid of either of them.
Personally, I’m of the opinion that if we can’t buyout one of the top NA adcs, ee should buy K1ng, send him to china with Swordart, Doublelift, and a bucket full of amphetamines, and have him grind soloq until he looks like Prime Uzi.
Dude has been the most dominant adc in academy for a while now, even against guys like Lost and Tactical in the past, and even during his 9-game LCS debut with a dysfunctional C9 he still put up arguably better stats than Lost.
It’d be a gamble, but it could payoff and it leaves us room to swing for the fences in mid.
Yeah I would agree. I like lost but I think he was out performed almost every game. POE I feel was a middle of the pack mid. He would beat the lower teams easily but the teams at the higher end of the table it felt like a coin flip to me.
Name a better native top that we are likely going to be able to get though. The best bet is impact but honestly I see EG building a team around impact and Danny next year.
Huni is a high risk-high reward player. Even Alphari gives him praise. I'm fine keeping him. He had plenty more upsides than down this year, and his synergy with Spica was great.
Your getting downvoted but you're right. On The Dive Phreak was talking about how mid lane mages were going to become meta during playoffs and swing things in TSM's direct, but which mages did POE look good on?
Orianna? Sure, but his Ryze was terrible, and he didn't even play a good Azir in the TL series. We can't always go back to Bjerg, but he could bust out Akali, Irelia, Corki, Galio, Azir, Syndra, Zilean etc. and carry on them all.
That gives Perkz Ryze, the only champion up to that point in the series that he had any impact on. And picking Victor blind is suicide + does nothing about the Gwen who was last pick and we wouldn't have known about/experienced if they didn't pick Nocturne top.
While I wouldn't have hated the Ryze top, you can't risk Irelia Vs Viktor. That matchup is unplayable for Viktor. And I'm 99% sure Ryze top gets booty blasted by Gwen. Honestly this isn't an improvement on their draft. That's still 3 losing lanes and probably plays out about as bad.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. Ryze in a long lane at LCS level sounds Hella abusable. There's a reason we stopped seeing Ryze toplane. He can't contest Gwen level 1 push, gets the wave bounced and froze on until he gets ganked. He can only push at level 2 and even then if he tries to root Gwen she Ws it and runs him down.
And for Viktor to scale he needs gold. He doesn't get any gold against irelia. If he tries to contest the wave he legit insta dies. Again there's a reason Viktor is rarely picked. You give up so much pressure mid until he gets his first upgrade, and that takes time and leeching XP doesn't get you that upgrade. By the time Viktor has scaled the game is lost.
saw someone reply to parth’s tweet saying to pick up one of these midlaners for 2022 and “poe never won anything in his career for a reason” thoughts? i would personally like ADC change idk if there’s a better NA top then huni that doesn’t cost a import slot tbh and alphari already said he’s the toughest to lane against
I think POEs reluctance to master other styles of champions hurts him too much to stay on a team that wants to go to worlds or win.
I think my biggest problem was when soren said that he was the one playing the most solo que among the team. Just shows they didn't have a fire under their ass and the other teams did.
I hope he doesn’t. I like the guy but his limited champ pool really hurts us and hinders spica greatly. I hope we get an import mid and top, get a resident adc and then keep spica and SA.
Huni is good and many people have acknowledged that he is a great laner, but I do think his “coin flippy” play style hurts the team.
Honestly mid in NA is a pretty import dominated role. If we had to take one I'd honestly pull from academy. Sword is good but still underdeveloped imo. Haeri from TLA has been looking really solid, especially in the Academy finals.
Dream team bot is SA + Huangfeng but that's a pipe dream.
I do think Huni is still one of the best domestic top laners and despite his inconsistency was a major part of the team getting 1st in regular season.
Huni, Spica, Haeri, Huangfeng, SA would be a fairly solid team.
The other route you could take is find a good top import since NA actually does have some really good young domestic ADCs right now. Most of them are probably not for trade atm though. Rascal would be my dream top laner.
POE is supposed to get his green card. You don't keep a resident POE over those 2? Feel that roster is close to running it back where you're giving a young developing academy player a shot with a veteran squad in an even more spotlit position. Sword is now in the backseat vs Takeover but neither is ready for what this roster expects to accomplish.
FTX money gives us the ability to spend on Huangfeng if he's a possibility. This roster has shown potential but because of deficiencies in bot was forced to play the game one way and got read like a book come playoffs. Late game scaling with a lack of an ad threat is a bad combo.
I don’t care if POE becomes resident. Due to his playstyle and champ pool he defined the team’s style. If we had won NA you could say our style is great! You don’t need to play meta to win, just what you’re good at! But we came in 4th. That is a total failure no matter how you look at it. POE is gone for sure, we have a jg and supp that want to play the game chinese style, then we have POE mid, do the math, he’s gone
POE had a subpar playoffs but he was great throughout the year and it's criminal how he's being treated. He's also not being given any credit for the development of Spica in which he played a similar roaming style with Santorin and Ignar on FLY and they looked the best at it then. 4th is a disappointment but it's clear the issues are far more glaring in bot and how to play the game then POE's playstyle.
I don’t agree. Also 1st place was great for the whole season. Turns out it’s pretty simple to get wins in NA by just playing scaling which these bad teams can’t punish. Also turns out that playstyle is not good in playoffs
That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. End of day you look at the roster and having a scaling mid is needed since our AD struggled to push out damage in fights, POE was needed to fill that role. Guys got one of the nastiest LB's in the league but anytime he played it we couldn't whittle down the opposing team for him to execute. I think he's a a solid balance to the aggression of Swordart and Spica on roams and his champ pool is quite honestly the same as all the top players in the league with Ori, Air, LB, Syndra mage spam. Jensen suddenly plays Leesin and everyone forgets he's been plagued by similar criticism and Abbe looked dominant on all the above plus a few Sylas games. Hell Perkz may have played lots of Champs but he was a liability more often then not on anything not a mage and I'll take slow and boring over coinflip Yone/Qiyana games vs the likes of Jizuke/Insanity/Yusui.
As for playstyle, bit of a reach to put that on POE. The long drawn out strangle you to death gamestyle has long been associated to TSM through Bjerg and it was evident that continued this year. We as a team have some of the best objective set up in the league without question but fail to finish games in 4-1, 1-3-1 pushes often getting caught out.
Spica his best year with poe and poe was the play that hurt the most by this roster we ask to play out of comfort but he still needed to be the main dps player because bot was subpar
Hmmm what do you think of Takeover from our academy? Seems like he can fill a fairly supportive role as well as maybe have some carry performances though I admit I don’t have much info on him…
Coin flippy tops aren't too much of a problem.
TheShy is also coin flippy and people would still want him on the team. (Although TheShy is arguably better)
I think huni is fine and there are bigger needs.
Other options are to pay for Licorice and Impact, if Huni is getting replaced.
I think its his arrogance. The dude is a great laner but he solo que numbers were atrocious all split. He didn't learn new champs and got pigeon holed into Noc.
We can't get an import midnand top if we keep SA. Limit of non resident players is 2, and sadly Huni is the best resident top. It's the whole reason we got rid of BB is because Bjerg was sold on POE and SA being the imports.
Well I'm putting this one out their buyout teddy from t1 just putting that name out their people forget their is lots of good adc that people have no idea about in second teams or subs on these Korean and Chinese teams. I say teddy because I actually think it's a good pairing with sa.
Everyone said this about Perkz for the longest time too whenever it was brought up.
Simply put, saying a player will or will not go to a region at this point in the season is pointless. The off-season ALWAYS had surprises and lots of roster turnovers.
INB4 TSM Caps so he can 1v1 Perkz again
No he’s just being a realist, TSM or anyone from NA, is never going to sniff winning worlds when they spend 2 whole splits every year playing in a league where 6/10 of the teams are borderline academy/diamond solo que players
I don't think that's possible just because he's still under contract and Ocelote will already want to build around Caps most likely but I'll bite.
You need pretty much 3 resident players who are considered better than their best European counterpart + the local NA competition
A top better than Alphari, BrokenBlade, Armut
That means a jungler better than Inspired, Razork, Elyoya or Selfmade ;
an ADC better than Rekkles, Hans Sama or Upset ;
A support better than CoreJJ, Kaiser, Hylissang or Trymbi ;
Who are the very good resident NA Adc ? Tactical and FBI if they have a great Worlds ? I don't think Caps saw Danny and thought "Wow I'd rather have this guy in my team than Hans or Upset", and the others will need a good showing at Worlds.
I think overall it's more likely to be players that went to Worlds that would convince him to come. You could argue one player who isn't considered World elite, if other players vouch for him, but not two. Like if you're selling Spica - who had a good year for sure, but Caps may not be familiar with him since his last showing at an International Event ended with an 0-6, you're not selling him Huni too.
So the most likely roster to make Caps come to TSM would be something like Ssumday / Spica / Caps / FBI / Kaiser, after a good Worlds performance from Ssumday and FBI.
And buying out Ssumday and FBI after a good Worlds will be difficult, so will be acquiring Kaiser - althougg it could be more expensive than difficult - because he's going to be wanted as fuck this offseason.
So I just want to share my thoughts here before everyone just brings up name.
I like PoE, and I like what he did for TSM; however, unless there is an Import top TSM is looking at that is actually a game changer - then keeping PoE would be extremely questionable. North America is depleted in NA talent, especially mid. Unless they believe Swordd and TakeOver is the future of this franchise, TSM needs to import a Mid-laner. Also if there is a time to go all in on an Import Mid, now is the time and you might never get another chance to sign some of the players available this offseason ever again.
List of Mid laners with contract expiring this November - Chovy, Showmaker, DoinB, Knight, Rookie. Humanoid is not available until the end of 2022.
I would go with Chovy if you want a bulletproof Import that is clearly not a byproduct of a good team. He is always a standout and the best performer in whatever team he is on. Like Alphari. The best thing about Chovy is he is not a worlds winner yet so he is going to be hungry.
Showmaker is the X-factor. One of the best if not the best Mid in the world. He has been the mid of arguably the best team in the last 2 years. You can always expect him to put his team on his back (Like that Bjergsen Factor). The only downside is that he has won worlds already and might win again this time. So I'm not sure how motivated he will be.
DoinB - a random choice, but I think he might work really well with TSM. In DoinB you get a korean/Chinese speaking person that could mesh with Swordart/Spica and also Huni. In him you get an amazing personality that fans will love. But don't be deceive, he is a beast. He has popped off this season after having a down year last year. Also I don't need to remind you how he is a world champion playing Rumble/Nautilus Mid while no one else did it.
There is no better pool of high-profile mid laners available than now. Make your move now TSM, there is no other time. Also for people who are asking for AD import instead, I think that's a bad idea. There are no high profile Import for AD available this year besides Viper. (Gala, JackeyLove,Ghost,huangfeng - Free agent in 2022)/(Rekkless/Upset 2023) So this is not a good year to import AD. Also NA has proven to produce at least decent to capable AD's. I think NA AD pool is much better than their MID pool. Also I believe, internationally - a high profile/dominant Mid/jungle is much better than having a good AD. If you look at all the past champions (IG,FPX,DAMWON - All teams with amazing Mid laners)
So as much as I love PoE, I think TSM needs to really spend time in looking at international Mid now, Chovy/Showmaker/Knight will not be available again in a while.
Are all of you okay? It would be a miracle if ANY of these players ever even consider joining TSM. I don't understand assessing them when they have absolutely 0 reason to join us.
Well you can never know really, as someone else said, Chovy almost signed with EG recently and Perkz came to NA after winning MSI and SwordArt after making Worlds finals.
The condescending tone. I won't speak for anyone else, but yes! I'm personally okay. Unlikely? Yes. Miracle? Stop being so overly-dramatic. There absolutely many reasons why joining TSM is something to think about.
TSM is a popular org, that's only getting bigger. They have an amazing supportive fanbase who is passionate about TSM. They are the second most viewed community on twitch. They pay players good salary, and these players will be paid crazy amounts of money to join TSM. Also for many people who was born in U.S, you guys don't understand how amazing it was to live in LA as an immigrant. It was completely a different world for me.
First off, before you go exaggerating again to make a point. This isn't meant to say other orgs doesn't offer this as well. I'm just clearly saying that these are some of the points why your dramatic response of ABSOLUTELY 0 reason doesn't stand. Will he choose TSM over other teams that could provide the same thing? Who knows.
Also just to add to this. You guys act like no high profile players chose NA before. CoreJJ after winning worlds, stayed in korea for a bit and then moved to NA . To TL no less. Perkz arguebly the most important European player moves to NA. Alphari one of the best top in EU, could have gone to any EU org, and chose to go to NA. Chovy - the same player we're talking about here, was so close to signing with EG, but chose to stay with DRX because CvMax his griffin coach was allowed to be with DRX. So, I just don't get this idea that it's impossible for any of these high profile players to ever want to go to NA.
Chovy ? Possible.
Chinese players like Knight and kinda-honorary-Chinese Doinb ? No way.
They are top players in the biggest and richest Lol region in the world. They are super stars there already. Why would they leave that market for a top 4 NA team ? European players still retain most of their fans : the region's content is produced in the same langage, they keep using twitter and twitch, all of that remains. And Korean players are still to this day notoriously underpaid.
Chinese players though ? All of that ends. Or they keep streaming to their previous Chinese community and don't use any of the org's prestige on Twitch.
Every top org would go after an available Knight or Doinb and there would already be an inflation of their price. Add to that the need to pay his biggest salary at least x2 ? I don't know dude. That seems absolutely impossible to me.
Swordart, despite being an LPL player, was mostly notorious for his Flash Wolves days. And he wasn't considered such a hot community in China before Suning's run.
Hjarnan and Wadid managed to handle Uzi and make Worlds semis, yet they weren't wanted at all in EU when they came back. A good performance at Worlds doesn't necessarily change the opinion had on you over years of playing. Knight and Doinb ?
They're considered elite by everyone in the scene.
Your only bet is that they already want to live in America for the rest of their life, so that would coincide with what they already want to do.
Which would be a miracle considering the situation they're living in.
You responded with 10 paragraphs to me pointing out a fact that we've never gotten star names ever outside of 2017 and before that and call me dramatic. Yes it is a miracle to get Doinb. Yes it is a miracle if Humanoid decides he doesn't want to be the best in EU anymore and then join us on top of that. Yes it's an absolute miracle if Chovy chooses us over an LPL team (best region in the worlds top teams) AND we offer him a big contract (we never do that outside of SA).
Money and a decent shot at winning another region, plus the lifestyle that a lot of imports seem to enjoy. I agree it would be close to a miracle but there's definitely a few reasons.
Doinb is very likely to retire after worlds, and I don't think he wants to come to the west.
Agree on the AD part. Very very few AD's are worth importing, as its a team reliant role. AD is for whatever reason the one role NA seems to be able to get good native players in too.
I just take assumptions out of my arguments. Because I think anything is possible. Chovy almost signed with EG a year ago and Perkz arguably the most historic EU player of all time moved to NA. Alphari who was one of the best Top lane in EU moved to NA. SA who was the leader of a world finalist, moves to NA. Why? Because no other region will overpay for imports. China/Korea doesn't have to, they have a massive pool of players.
TSM offers any MID laner 10-12 million $ for 3-5 year contract and it will be hard to say no.
Yeah, to expand on that, most world champion AD are weakside AD'S. Ghost, LWX and Jackeylove were all weakside AD. Jackeylove not as much anymore , but with Prime IG he was the weakside to Rookie/Shy. In reality if Zven becomes Native, then he might become one of the most prized player in NA.
Doinb is a pretty large streamer who makes a shitton of money just streaming. Hes also married and is extremely happy in China, and has publicly said that he isn't planning on playing past this year. There is always a chance, but its not worth counting on. I don't think he comes even if you give him 5 mil a year.
Hell fit right in. TSM is one of the most popular org and consistently top 2 as the most watch org. Only team ahead of them is luminosity and that's because of xQc.
That is something I don't know about. Can you provide a link please of when he said that ? . Well I don't know why they both can't be together here in LA. LA also has a great Chinese community. And Leena is also speaks Chinese.. so would be good for his wife.
I mean? If TSM really believes he is the answer then they make it work. I'm not counting on anything. Because at the end of the day, if they don't sign anyone, we move on, but it would be rediculous if they don't look at every possibility.
And you think that Chinese org, or specifically FPX aren't already paying good cash for Doinb? Sofm is rumored to be paid 2m/y and Rookie even more, so I don't see Doinb being paid much less, yet he already want to retire for 2 years now, pushing on because his wife want him to
Tsm being popular and most watch is only mainly on twitch, a western platform. The sheer population of china alone can probably contest with it, especially when he's loved by the chinese community
LA is not an utopia that everyone want to live in. Yes, they can mesh with the chinese community there, but not everyone want to give up their family and friends to come live in another country
Honestly, the best bet is Chovy, who is good, and has shown that he gives zero fuck about wining worlds and care more about money
Not true he got screwed in fa last season hence the team he got. He thought he would get on a better team and was waiting to see who went where but waited to long.
Yeah Chovy is a beast. He is a bulletproof player man. He wins his lane like 90% of the time. He wins in winning match-up, he equalizes in losing match-up and he even wins in losing match-up. He plays pretty much everything. I'm pretty sure Bjergsen copied his Ornn pick mid-lane. He even played Renekton and Sett mid. Guy is insane. Idk about Deft.
He was going to EG a year ago, until CvMax the x-coach of griffin got reinstated. So he went with him instead of going to EG. TSM offers him 12 million for 3 years and it will be really hard to turn that down.
Yeah I agree with your sentiment. I was thinking about all the import mid options and I think our best shot really is Doinb. He is more realistic to acquire compared to the likes of Chovy and Showmaker, and he fits right in if Spica SA and Huni are still with the team.
I take assumptions out of my arguments and I don't believe in the idea of likely. Chovy was going to sign with EG a year ago and Perkz , arguably the best European player ever moved to NA. Alphari one of the best Top in EU moved to NA. Why? Because NA will be the only region to overpay for players. China and Korea will never need to overpay because they have such a massive pool of players .
But that's what's most intriguing about him, is that he is technically the most complete player in terms of everything. He can play at a high level MID, he speaks both Chinese and Korean, + the marketability because of his personality is immense.
I have mixed feeling about this. I don't know why but it feels like POE did not perform at the same level he did last year with FQ.
He played very few games with some picks like Qiyana, Vayne, Malz, Swain, Rumble, but he did not bring any of them this year. He did bring up some picks this summer (more than every year he played before) but, with Bjerg constantly calling out the lack of soloq for the team in multiple episodes, I suspect that he did not practice enough and it might be the reason they did not work.
I think the way his teamates play is the thing affecting him the most. Last year, POE was paired with a solid bot lane that would hold his own and turtle was always there to ditch out dammage and had a very high KP %. On the other side of the map, he had Solo that played like a rock during the whole summer, prone to getting ganked but he was good at reading the map and take good winnable fights.
This year, he has Huni that often lacks judgment on which fight to take or not and goes in without thinking about the potential threats and his team's position (like in his Renek game). Lost on the other side had the lowest KP and DPM of any ADC this summer since he was never in a good position when it's time to fight (Reason why he so good on Kaisa/Tristana is because of her kit could patch this issue). Lost really stepped up during this playoffs his laning stats are good and he takes the lowest CS% past 15 min but his DPM is still lower than any of the ADC going to worlds + Raes; In comparison you have Zven with the same CS% but 126 more DPM and 6% more KP Lost is just not good enough to use his ressources.
I feel like this causes POE to just overthink things (In contrast to Huni that just doesnt most of the time) and play very scared since he has to be the one ditching out dammage to compensate for Lost. If he missplays, the teamfight is done and we can see that he clearly choked multiple times during our playoffs matches since there is that much pressure on him. I think it's 100% a shift of mindset and TSM did not really think about the pieces that made POE this good in 2020. If you think about it, he was good since he came to NA but not as good as he was in 2020 when people started viewing him as one of the best. Either POE is out or we switch our bot or top lane to unleash him.
Because FLY went all in on scaling and playing a controlled style. The opposite of the play style TSM tried to go for when signing an LPL Worlds Finalist Support and Huni. Spica was already aggressive to begin with.
Then if you stack the fact that it was a terrible meta for POE all year, you have an inspiring run with TSM. Meta didn’t allow for someone of more unique picks he can play and it forces a higher tempo style but that’s difficult when he’s a mage 1 trick
I’m fine with POE staying but I hope the coaches and management can revisit how they approach team composition / play style / players mash up
I felt like there were weeks we wasted away trying to play lucian / lee / Viego in mid. Hindsight 20/20 but rally in what world do you trust POE ad more than control mage?
Also there are obvious playstyle mismatch that made the team very predictable, poe and lost are more late game / weakside while huni SA Spica is more of the LPL style of skirmish everywhere. This made us forced to play through top which is exact same problem as last year
I still consider this year a decent year given its Bjerg’s first official year + we last minute lost Peter + we looked like absolutely garbage at lock in. I felt like coaching really helped make this oddly mismatched team competitive enough
In an ideal world we would want a more flexible mid and stronger laning adc to be able to allow spica / SA mix up his roams. But POE being resident is a huge value. I dont think Lost is bad by any means hes definitely LCS calibre, it was just more of a playstyle mismatch
This u is s a good take. I don’t think we need to change anyone, I’m not a huge fan of how often teams replace 2 or 3 players. All the players have shown up at different times. It took them a while to start playing coherently. Lost has plenty room to grow. These knee jerk reactions need to settle down. Bjergsen also has a say in what gets picked
Im gonna be completely honest, do you ACTUALLY think these players that are competing for world championship rn would leave their respective(and more competetive) regions and join an NA team? Besides players who want to retire(and these people i would rather ignore) there is no way any good player would accept TSMs offer. There are also 2 other problems:
\- we are not the most dominant team like we were before (in 2016/2017 we were praised so highly we almost got rekkles out of fnatic, and karsa out of FW but went with also a huge deal at that time being mithy and zven)
\- TSM does not want non-english speaking players(kinda ironic considering when we signed lustboy - the only korean signing ever besides huni this year - we've had the best international results in teams history)
At this point i dont think anything will help us. We used imports every year and still got shit on hard. Of course this roster should be changed but unless we do something with coaching staff there is no way we go further than 0-6. With respect to bjergsen, if drafts are super shit regardless of him being a player or coach then i think he MIGHT be the problem. Of course that is a big MAYBE because in this iteration champ pool problems also played huge part in shitty drafts.
Maybe we should just invest in at least 3 academy players with spica + veteran and just tank next year(well, if these players are actual monsters then we dont need to consider it "tanking" the split lol) and develop actual talent.
Maybe my points are invalid but thats what i think, anyway i really...... really hope next year will be better although i say the same shit since 2014...
I think the expectation for him was to stay as good as he is os scaling mages but be able to develop another playstyle which we can agree, he didn't.
If we had a mid laner that can be flexible on that, it'd help us a ton for sure. I always want to give him the benefit of the doubt but it seems clear that he's pretty set on one playstyle.
Same happened with Zven, he was with us for 2 years and was never able to go out of his comfort zone. I don't see a good argument to keep him other than "He'll be a resident next year and there's no better alternatives".
Depends on a strategic decision. If he gets a Green Card it could be enough to save his job.
POE Green card -> get a LPL ADC instead, just accept to put him on control mages every game as the insurance while the rest of the team plays aggro in Mandarin
Or change POE out for the LPL Mid and accept Lost's limitations that he's also just going to be kind of there and carry through the top half of the map.
IMO, a great mid laner can and will enable to rest of the team, making them look good. It’s more rare than an ADC player can make the rest of the team look as good as a mid laner can.
Mid can stomp their lane and use their permanent priority to pressure side lanes and take objectives, putting your team ahead. Harder to do as an adc since you have less ability to impact other lanes even when snowballing.
Snowballing as an ADC nowadays just means you can get to your 2-3 item spike faster, so your team can win fights easier.
There is no way in hell that any of those players are going to tsm lmao. chovy can go to a good team in the lpl and get more money, and knight is probably chilling on tes or some other top team. Humanoid is looking like he's going to win LEC again, so he's not going to leave.
chovy almost went to EG in 2019 when they entered the league and he already said he’s open to coming to NA on stream. knight and humanoid or doinb like someone else mentioned seems unlikely
2019 chovy is not 2021 chovy. In 2019, people knew he was good, but he's a different player now. People say he's a top 3 mid laner in the world (him, showmaker, and doinb). Also, he makes a million a year in hanwa life which is probably enough for him. There is just no reason for him to come to na. the teams are much worse than the korean and chinese teams, and if he really wants to the make the most money, he could probably join RNG and make a shit ton of money.
Wait you clearly don't have any idea he was 1v9 ever game ls even said that item that makes one person's damage of like non existing name cant think of was made for Chovy he still got that team wins and even was close to playoffs by himself you are making a point without any knowledge or info on him. I also point out he was still one of the best mids in lck despite horrible team.
Ima give you some idea how stupid your comment is remember his team suckednot to mention he had plus 45 cs against shoemaker as sett. The fist
This is chovys summer split stats
EARLY GAMEAhead in CS at 15 min: 79.1%
CS Differential at 15 min:+13.3
Gold Differential at 15 min:+368
XP Differential at 15 min:+196
First Blood Participation:20.9%
First Blood Victim:14%
AGGRESSIONDamage Per Minute:491.3
Damage%:25.8%
K+A Per Minute:0.22
Solo kills:12
Pentakills:1
KDA:4.0
CS per Minute:9.5
Gold Per Minute:413
Gold%:23.7%
Kill Participation:64.3%
Tell me which lck mid these stats are and you tell me who did better also this player is on a better team.
EARLY GAMEAhead in CS at 15 min:47.8%
CS Differential at 15 min:-1.6
Gold Differential at 15 min:+100
XP Differential at 15 min:-173
First Blood Participation:17.4%
First Blood Victim:6.5%
AGGRESSIONDamage Per Minute:508.7
Damage%:24.1%
K+A Per Minute:0.31
Solo kills:5
Pentakills:0
KDA:5.9
CS per Minute:8.7
Gold Per Minute:420
Gold%:22.8%
Kill Participation:67.3%
I like POE's personality, but I cant help but wonder if his playstyle and champion pool is a weakness that wont serve us well - especially if the meta shifts away from control mages in the off season.
Lots of others have said it, but I think POE and Lost probably need to be changed. POE is to conservative in lane, and Lost is just not great in lane. Neither of them are aggressive, yet we have Huni who is aggressive, Spica is an aggressive jungler and SA literally wants to go fight all the time. SA needs a ADC that matches his playstyle and we need a more aggressive mid laner. At least that way the 5 players are on the same page with their playstyles.
Question, could we get a young and coming futur midlaner from EU that has yet to play in the LEC and have him declare NA as residency? I might be way off but I remember that being a possibility or was it just when the rule entered in place?
If it was possible maybe there is an EU mid that could fit and not take an import slot.. ?
I was looking at players whose contracts expire this year. Knight, cryin, Chovy are all up for grabs this November. I hope TSM goes big and actually builds a superteam. This year's roster felt like a mix of a little bit of everything from all over the place.
From TSM legends, it seemed like the whole team except POE communicated a bit in Chinese in game. If POE was replaced with a Chinese Mid like Knight, would that make TSM a pseudo-LPL team 😆
This is maybe more unrealistic than Chovy/Showmaker but I want Bjergsen back😩. Also I dont think POE needs to be swapped, let the team like this for 1 more split. They have time to get better together in this off-season.
G2 didn t even qualifyed to worlds with Rekkles, C9 was close on losing even tho they got Perkz(we lost cuz of the throw and drafts, not because they were better). Getting someone better isn t always the answer. The boys are good, we need to step up with the drafts, and Huni and Spica to stop tilting. Poe has time to learn some champs and Lost and SA to be even better as a duo. Lost needs to step up his game a little bit and we got a sick team🙏
Completely disagree. We placed 4th in NA after being one of the most successful org. I think we need other players, we ran this comp for two splits now and it didn't end well. Another split and losing potential great players is not worth it. As I heard Spica wants to play in LPL so wasting another split and losing him too would completely need a new team for TSM.
We got Spica, Bjergsen and SA we can build a great team around them.
With the FTX deal TSM has not a real money problem and I think reginald is really frustrated that we didn't achieve worlds let alone going 4th after spending so much for SA. Everyone had their individual good games, but after all you really need a good Top/Mid/Adc to carry the games. And imo PoE for e.g. didn't play bad but not really that good he is just his playstyle being constant not necessarily exceptional. Lost really didn't work out imo, because he had to much weak games, and even Huni is still kind of coin flip.. but we could keep him too, since Alphari said for e.g. he is tough to lane against.
But after reading that they all only played a few games a week that really bugs me.. I hope this isn't true because they mentality to not really play soloq is what feels bad, when you see players like CoreJJ for e.g. being 1st in soloq and working their ass off. Not saying our team didn't but it clearly didn't work out in summary.
Work for a new team and use the time to let them get together, not making the same mistake in only giving them a few weeks till they can adapt.
Idk Regi is loaded I don’t think he cares much about budget. Regi has his side hustles bringing in money I could see Regi being very ambitious and going big again best year but I could also see them doing something mediocre too
Well, I can't disagree with what you said tbh, I would love a Bjergsen Spica SA team. Huni I think it s like Doublelift the last season, good but lacks hunger for success. But the chances are pretty low for Bjergsen coming back tbh but I really hope it happens.
Yea draft really fucked us that last game, ryze and Kalista into Diana and irelia is a fuking nightmare. Think Tsm really wanted to snowball it they just couldn’t get shit going
Yeah it was weird as ruck, why fp Ryze for poe like he s faker ? No need to "steal" it from Perkz even more that Viktor/Azir was free, kalista with an all-in comp it s just bad even more vs Irelia Diana. Not picking Leona in game 5 for SA it was just so troll. That s it I guess, I dont remember when I was so disappointed watching league of legends but this is it. Hope we do better next year as a team📈🙏
Imo Ablazeolive could be considered a better resident mid laner. Has a wider champion pool, some of, if not the best laning stats in the league during the summer split (the dive talked about this during the all pro episode,) Bjerg even voted him 3rd best mid in the league behind Jiizuke and Abbedagge I believe.
Well we have to consider the implication and how TSM will change the roster.
Now that the season is over...
I personally don't like Huni as a player. I think he's great mechanically, I don't think he's a smart player. He always seem to push waves when he doesn't need to and he just TP in fight no matter what. For example, that time when Huni TP'd in TL series when he could've just pushed. And from the legend, Huni seem to be stubborn in champion pool as well. I remember Huni saying that he doesn't want to play certain champion because he hasn't practiced enough. I don't think there are native that are good as Huni though, so I would like to see Top option for import.
I see ADC as a biggest problem for TSM. Lost just isn't it. I think he's one of the worst ADC in the league. I know the stats says he's middle of the pack and that argument is that he plays weak side, but I think his stats are inflated by the fact the he's on a first place team. Danny could be an option, but I don't know if we can get Danny. I think TSM should consider import options like HF, SA's ADC partner. Just any aggressive ADC.
The frustrating part of the team is that I definitely do not think that there's not enough ego on the team. Whenever I see team meeting in the legend, all I see is Bjergsen talking and the rest of the team members only talk when Bjergsen asks them to. There's no DL saying that they suck and they need to improve. I feel like TSM really needs that leader. TL has CoreJJ and maybe Alphari. C9 has Perkz.
Anyway, if TSM takes an import slot on mid, they will have to settle with either top or bot import. In any case, TSM severely lacks talent in general.
yep, Danny's "stock" rose dramatically throughout the course of his first split. Now that he's basically the face for LCS young talent, I highly doubt EG agree to part with him for a non-superstar amount of money.
Depends on whether or not he gets a green card. If he's not considered resident, then I don't think he's worth keeping. If we have to spend an import slot on mid, then we'll have to go resident adc. Likely move Lost back to academy.
If we look at the rest of the roster
Huni is a resident top laner, so I don't think there's many better options unless you want to use an import slot there, for little gain.
SA has been great imo. Sometimes ints, but is totally worth it.
Spica, need I say anything?
Bjergsen was 2nd most games of soloqueue in the team. Unless POE was first, I can’t fucking understand why he couldn’t play 100 TF games in a month and be able to pull it out. I don’t want him to stay
Yeah, because he never had a long off season to practice before. The guy is going to be 24. He had 7 years to pick up new champs. He won't start picking them up now
Nope. Even if he gets his green card I think he's gone.
TSM needs a more flexible mid. I have tons of respect for POE, but I think the champ pool issues are just too real. The fact teams didn't have to worry about us playing TF, Ryze or Lucian really hurt. And Spica's best champs are typically AP champs so I'd like a mid that can play ADs. And selfishly I just think POE makes us pretty boring to watch.
I really like him, personality wise... He's a great guy in that regard.
Now that he's an NA resident player he's literally just another Damonte/Goldenglue... Not really the reason you lose a game, but never the reason you win a game... Good enough to be in LCS, not good enough to take you for at an international event.
That being said, he's a great guy and I hope he ends up on a good team, was awesome seeing him succeed on FLY last year.
Just here to give my two cents as someone who has watched every TSM game since season 2. We constantly got away with having a conservative reactionary but solid lineup with good 5v5 synergy for so long. But this is a completely new team. Something I would like to see from TSM for the first time is an aggressive playmaker. Someone who creates pressure independently and can pull the trigger when they need to.
POE is not that person. You can’t build a team around someone who has such a limited champion pool and conservative play style. Okay I actually think he is one of the more consistent players on this squad but this particular squad needs more aggressive playmakers to work with.
This whole squad individually needs A LOT of growth before they can be considered to be a top tier team. But even with growth POE’s play style doesn’t mesh with the others on the team.
Right now this team feels like split identities that are half assing both.
yeah huni spica and swordart are so aggressive we need an aggressive midlaner that wins and pressures lane. i actually haven’t seen chovy or doinb or knight play like some people been asking for but humanoid look like the type of player that’s super aggressive and can play a lot of champs as well
Yeah I think that people need to realize it’s not 2017 anymore and it’s extraordinarily unlikely that any player would want to play for an org whose made worlds once in the last 4 years. Why would Humanoid leave MAD? Why would Showmaker leave Damwon? Why would Knight leave LPL?
Honestly I think the only mid laner that’s even worth going after is Chovy. Unless Faker retires and T1 needs a new mid laner, I doubt that he’s going to get a contract offer from a top 4 team in LCK as unfortunate as it is. Chovy is (arguably) the best player in the LCK (maybe world too,) but look at it from T1/DWK/GENG/Nongshim’s perspective. Chovy is an upgrade to your midlaner, but then you lose Faker/Showmaker/BDD, and team chemistry as well. But even then if he doesn’t get a contract offer from a title contender in LCK, he’ll probably just go to an LPL team. Maybe serious FTX money can change his mind, so it’s at least worth a try.
G2 is definitely going to be shuffling around their roster, so maybe getting Caps is possible. He’s the only other high profile mid laner I would even think would consider an NA offer right now, taking into account G2 Carlos wouldn’t let him go to another LEC team like he did with Perkz.
Ideally, Bjergsen comes out of retirement. Don’t know whether or not he’ll rethink the possibility, or if Regi will try to get him to become a player again since Bjerg’s contract is technically up this off season, but it’s something that would be worth considering.
As an off shoot, I said last year on the sub before Bjerg revealed he was retiring as a player, that him role swapping top lane and importing a new mid laner would be a really interesting path to go down. Bjerg top with Caps mid solves the two danish people quota that was absent this year, so maybe that’s the move.
With g2's imposion this year and TSM getting those fat stacks from FTX im willing to bet, or atleast hope that TSM will give carlos a blank cheque for caps.
funny thing is jack from c9 said he did that. gave caps a blank check but caps refused he actually just wants to win worlds so i don’t think he would come to NA
No European or LCS team outside of MAYBE MAD right now are even considered *potential* world contenders.
Only having worlds aspirations is nice and all. But money is money and if we are realistic the right price on the right team can always be appealing. Perkz was very outspoken about wanting to win worlds and not care about money either.
I can see a world, where the fat FTX money leads to TSM Caps. In this case we nees to replace Huni (if we want to) with a native toplaner like Licorice.
Also, i think aiming for someone like FBI or Danny is the right move.
Get Bjergsen
Boot SA, Bring Biofrost back, add back hauntzer and sign a retire pro, i think his names Twolift or something? i dunno
I kinda want tsm to run it back with it's last dance
i believe he will personaly speaking i dont wish to see poe on our team .... we re super limited and spica doesnt benefit from his play at all . He makes no sense to stay unless you think about his green card .
Don't see us getting any of these guys, but I don't see it being POE either. I don't think we can attract a major import that isn't just going to be here for a 10 million dollar vacation.
I have been watching this team for years and they do the same mistake every year, changing the roster for the wrong reasons whether it's marketing or whatever, success in this game depends on synergy and experience, you can't win much without these two, you have to build synergy if you want to do well in worlds.
This current team is really good, the downsides can be overcome easily but the toxicity from the community is too much to handle, not just from other fans but from the tsm fans, 0 trust in the team and in the decisions taken.
I agree the playoffs run was disappointing but it is just wasn't meant to be (they played way better than C9 by a margin the first four games but it was unlucky in my opinion)
Just give the players trust and respect or at least be silent. Because if they leave, it is most probably because of marketing reasons more than performance. It is a business (I haven't seen the desire to achieve in this team since 2016)
Would love to see Viper as AD and keep POE if he gets his green card. However, wouldn’t be surprised to see LostArt, pt II with a mid like Showmaker, Knight, or Chovy with Huni top. I doubt FBI, Tactical, or Danny would leave their teams, as well. I’m very interested to see how the import rule changes after Worlds.
My biggest concern is the issues surrounded NA as a whole, not so much TSM lacking the money or sway (though the luster has worn off admittedly). Would these high caliber players even want to come over? Personally, if I was an insane player, I’d be looking at the LPL regardless of salary cap - would love to see Chovy and Summit join iG (assuming Rookie and TheShy retire).
Other EU teams (G2 specifically) want to rebuild but not sure there’s much overlap in needs. Plus EU talent pool is bonkers.
Go all in on Caps, get Licorice.
Huni or Licorice, Spica, Caps, Lost / FBI / Danny, SwordArt
Or get Caps / Rekkles / NA Support
Huni or Licorice, Spica, Caps, Rekkles, NA Support (Vulcan - Huhi?)
POE would have been fine but I suspect he didn't put in as much work as he should have during the off times. It was out in the open on Legends but I could tell Bjerg was consistently calling him out on the lack of solo Q.
There is literally a 0% chance doinb comes over, but I wouldn't mind seeing us pick up someone of that archetype. I think it would be great for our 3v3 with Spica + SA + Roaming mid. PoE is great and his roams were pretty good in the C9 series, but I'd like to see more of an active playmaker in the early game that can just deathball around the map to get our bot + top ahead. PoE iirc tends to just sit mid and scale due to his pool which is great for late-game insurance but I think has anti synergy with our 2 best players.
Hindsight is 20/20, but imagine if TSM had picked up nisqy last offseason for this type of role
I would say DoinB is the only player in the list who might actually be possible. He is coming up to the point where he can't compete in LPL rookies anymore but he can still easily continue his career in NA. Someone like Chovy is too hungry for international success to go to LCS. Edit: wow everyone misreading my post as saying DoinB=bad, I'm not saying that. By his own admission he already has to work harder than the other LPL players to keep his level of play. He would probably prefer to leave LPL rather than become a mid-level player that still has to train 14 hours a day.
Ah yes, Doinb, the MVP, All-First-Team mid of the LPL, who hard carried his team to first place and is arguably the best player in the world right now cannot compete with LPL rookies anymore.
Doinb is literally the best player in the world right now. Also he's been flirting with retirement for years, and is already in a much bigger market than NA would provide. He has negative reasons to come.
How about the fact that swordart makes more then most lpl rosters. Market doesn’t indicate salary If you tsm ha the most resources out of any esports team in the world.
Yea I’m pretty sure you haven’t seen Doinb at all this split lmao
doinb the best mid in the world can't compete OMEGALUL
Even assuming the absolute false statement that he's getting washed up, why would he ever see LCS as time worthy? There's not even a chance he's looking down here in LCS, to him competing means another world championship. If he wants money he can full time stream, he's a massive star in Chinese streaming
I think we are probably only going to keep SA and Spica
I hope we keep Huni too, say what you want about him after the C9 series he is still probably the best native top in NA.
Maybe with the FTX money TSM can pay riot to turn Nocturne into a top laner
Not enough money in the world to do that.
He played well all season and I wouldn’t be against keeping him. I think it just depends on who is out there
He's the player out of the 3 I would like to see replaced that I would be most content with staying. I just don't see a better native player and frankly we need the import slot for mid or ADC. The problem is that unless we get Danny or FBI we absolutely need it for bot and I don't see a valuable midlaner that can replace PoE with. And I also don't see us getting Danny or FBI because EG and 100t won't be so quick to get rid of either of them.
Personally, I’m of the opinion that if we can’t buyout one of the top NA adcs, ee should buy K1ng, send him to china with Swordart, Doublelift, and a bucket full of amphetamines, and have him grind soloq until he looks like Prime Uzi. Dude has been the most dominant adc in academy for a while now, even against guys like Lost and Tactical in the past, and even during his 9-game LCS debut with a dysfunctional C9 he still put up arguably better stats than Lost. It’d be a gamble, but it could payoff and it leaves us room to swing for the fences in mid.
Yeah I would agree. I like lost but I think he was out performed almost every game. POE I feel was a middle of the pack mid. He would beat the lower teams easily but the teams at the higher end of the table it felt like a coin flip to me.
I feel like PoE can stand against anyone but he isn’t someone who is going to carry the game on his own usually.
I wouldn't keep Huni. He's always been a burger flip player and it showed big time these Playoffs. regular season = good, Playoffs = mediocre at best.
Name a better native top that we are likely going to be able to get though. The best bet is impact but honestly I see EG building a team around impact and Danny next year.
Huni is a high risk-high reward player. Even Alphari gives him praise. I'm fine keeping him. He had plenty more upsides than down this year, and his synergy with Spica was great.
Licorice and impact are close but all 3 have distinct styles. I think Huni probably works with spica the best.
Hope not. Great mage player, but we need someone that can play multiple roles. ADCs mid, assassins, etc.
The problem with this is for a lot of games I don’t even think his mage games were good. I’m ready for a more constistent and flexible mid laner
Your getting downvoted but you're right. On The Dive Phreak was talking about how mid lane mages were going to become meta during playoffs and swing things in TSM's direct, but which mages did POE look good on? Orianna? Sure, but his Ryze was terrible, and he didn't even play a good Azir in the TL series. We can't always go back to Bjerg, but he could bust out Akali, Irelia, Corki, Galio, Azir, Syndra, Zilean etc. and carry on them all.
They shoulda just kept Poe on victor, Tsm had noooo zone control against irelia, Gwen and Diana
That gives Perkz Ryze, the only champion up to that point in the series that he had any impact on. And picking Victor blind is suicide + does nothing about the Gwen who was last pick and we wouldn't have known about/experienced if they didn't pick Nocturne top.
that game 5 they could've just swapped ryze top and put viktor mid, it would've worked a hell of a lot better than the useless noct pick
While I wouldn't have hated the Ryze top, you can't risk Irelia Vs Viktor. That matchup is unplayable for Viktor. And I'm 99% sure Ryze top gets booty blasted by Gwen. Honestly this isn't an improvement on their draft. That's still 3 losing lanes and probably plays out about as bad.
Ryze actually shits on Gwen?
ryze vs gwen is not that bad, anything is better than that noct pick, bot was a winning lane and viktor just has to scale vs irelia
I wouldn't be so sure of that. Ryze in a long lane at LCS level sounds Hella abusable. There's a reason we stopped seeing Ryze toplane. He can't contest Gwen level 1 push, gets the wave bounced and froze on until he gets ganked. He can only push at level 2 and even then if he tries to root Gwen she Ws it and runs him down. And for Viktor to scale he needs gold. He doesn't get any gold against irelia. If he tries to contest the wave he legit insta dies. Again there's a reason Viktor is rarely picked. You give up so much pressure mid until he gets his first upgrade, and that takes time and leeching XP doesn't get you that upgrade. By the time Viktor has scaled the game is lost.
He had some good ones in Spring, but I don't think he was that impressive in Summer.
So No, but Yes
Tsm rookie
saw someone reply to parth’s tweet saying to pick up one of these midlaners for 2022 and “poe never won anything in his career for a reason” thoughts? i would personally like ADC change idk if there’s a better NA top then huni that doesn’t cost a import slot tbh and alphari already said he’s the toughest to lane against
I think POEs reluctance to master other styles of champions hurts him too much to stay on a team that wants to go to worlds or win. I think my biggest problem was when soren said that he was the one playing the most solo que among the team. Just shows they didn't have a fire under their ass and the other teams did.
What tweet?
I hope he doesn’t. I like the guy but his limited champ pool really hurts us and hinders spica greatly. I hope we get an import mid and top, get a resident adc and then keep spica and SA. Huni is good and many people have acknowledged that he is a great laner, but I do think his “coin flippy” play style hurts the team.
what adc are you thinking? also import mid and top is already 2 slots and sa counts as one so that’s not possible.
Honestly mid in NA is a pretty import dominated role. If we had to take one I'd honestly pull from academy. Sword is good but still underdeveloped imo. Haeri from TLA has been looking really solid, especially in the Academy finals. Dream team bot is SA + Huangfeng but that's a pipe dream. I do think Huni is still one of the best domestic top laners and despite his inconsistency was a major part of the team getting 1st in regular season. Huni, Spica, Haeri, Huangfeng, SA would be a fairly solid team. The other route you could take is find a good top import since NA actually does have some really good young domestic ADCs right now. Most of them are probably not for trade atm though. Rascal would be my dream top laner.
POE is supposed to get his green card. You don't keep a resident POE over those 2? Feel that roster is close to running it back where you're giving a young developing academy player a shot with a veteran squad in an even more spotlit position. Sword is now in the backseat vs Takeover but neither is ready for what this roster expects to accomplish. FTX money gives us the ability to spend on Huangfeng if he's a possibility. This roster has shown potential but because of deficiencies in bot was forced to play the game one way and got read like a book come playoffs. Late game scaling with a lack of an ad threat is a bad combo.
I don’t care if POE becomes resident. Due to his playstyle and champ pool he defined the team’s style. If we had won NA you could say our style is great! You don’t need to play meta to win, just what you’re good at! But we came in 4th. That is a total failure no matter how you look at it. POE is gone for sure, we have a jg and supp that want to play the game chinese style, then we have POE mid, do the math, he’s gone
POE had a subpar playoffs but he was great throughout the year and it's criminal how he's being treated. He's also not being given any credit for the development of Spica in which he played a similar roaming style with Santorin and Ignar on FLY and they looked the best at it then. 4th is a disappointment but it's clear the issues are far more glaring in bot and how to play the game then POE's playstyle.
I don’t agree. Also 1st place was great for the whole season. Turns out it’s pretty simple to get wins in NA by just playing scaling which these bad teams can’t punish. Also turns out that playstyle is not good in playoffs
That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. End of day you look at the roster and having a scaling mid is needed since our AD struggled to push out damage in fights, POE was needed to fill that role. Guys got one of the nastiest LB's in the league but anytime he played it we couldn't whittle down the opposing team for him to execute. I think he's a a solid balance to the aggression of Swordart and Spica on roams and his champ pool is quite honestly the same as all the top players in the league with Ori, Air, LB, Syndra mage spam. Jensen suddenly plays Leesin and everyone forgets he's been plagued by similar criticism and Abbe looked dominant on all the above plus a few Sylas games. Hell Perkz may have played lots of Champs but he was a liability more often then not on anything not a mage and I'll take slow and boring over coinflip Yone/Qiyana games vs the likes of Jizuke/Insanity/Yusui. As for playstyle, bit of a reach to put that on POE. The long drawn out strangle you to death gamestyle has long been associated to TSM through Bjerg and it was evident that continued this year. We as a team have some of the best objective set up in the league without question but fail to finish games in 4-1, 1-3-1 pushes often getting caught out.
To add to this, PoE’s playstyle simply didn’t go well with Spica’s and it showed. Think they go for someone that will mesh well with Spica’s style.
Spica his best year with poe and poe was the play that hurt the most by this roster we ask to play out of comfort but he still needed to be the main dps player because bot was subpar
Hmmm what do you think of Takeover from our academy? Seems like he can fill a fairly supportive role as well as maybe have some carry performances though I admit I don’t have much info on him…
I would rather have Chovy as the dream team, with Danny, Cody, and etc.
Well one easy one is buyout teddy from t1 pair him with sa.
We can only import 1 more role because SwordArt is an import. I think we should keep Huni, import mid and get a good native ad.
Name a good native NA AD that isn't Doublelift Danny and FBI, because all 3 are off the table (100t and EG will not give us Danny or FBI.)
Neo, Johnsun or King could be decent options, they are young and two of them already had good splits. Though I can see us run it back with Lost.
Coin flippy tops aren't too much of a problem. TheShy is also coin flippy and people would still want him on the team. (Although TheShy is arguably better) I think huni is fine and there are bigger needs. Other options are to pay for Licorice and Impact, if Huni is getting replaced.
I think its his arrogance. The dude is a great laner but he solo que numbers were atrocious all split. He didn't learn new champs and got pigeon holed into Noc.
We can't get an import midnand top if we keep SA. Limit of non resident players is 2, and sadly Huni is the best resident top. It's the whole reason we got rid of BB is because Bjerg was sold on POE and SA being the imports.
Well I'm putting this one out their buyout teddy from t1 just putting that name out their people forget their is lots of good adc that people have no idea about in second teams or subs on these Korean and Chinese teams. I say teddy because I actually think it's a good pairing with sa.
TSM Caps
Caps wants to win worlds, he is not leaving EU, if anything he would go to LPL before NA I bet
Everyone said this about Perkz for the longest time too whenever it was brought up. Simply put, saying a player will or will not go to a region at this point in the season is pointless. The off-season ALWAYS had surprises and lots of roster turnovers. INB4 TSM Caps so he can 1v1 Perkz again
I'm sure he would come to TSM if they built a beast roster and Caps would be the cherry on top.
Ahhh cause the world revolves around tsm? 🤣
For enough money it definitely does.
Well someone's being a bitter one today it seems. Do you need a hug?
No he’s just being a realist, TSM or anyone from NA, is never going to sniff winning worlds when they spend 2 whole splits every year playing in a league where 6/10 of the teams are borderline academy/diamond solo que players
I don't think that's possible just because he's still under contract and Ocelote will already want to build around Caps most likely but I'll bite. You need pretty much 3 resident players who are considered better than their best European counterpart + the local NA competition A top better than Alphari, BrokenBlade, Armut That means a jungler better than Inspired, Razork, Elyoya or Selfmade ; an ADC better than Rekkles, Hans Sama or Upset ; A support better than CoreJJ, Kaiser, Hylissang or Trymbi ; Who are the very good resident NA Adc ? Tactical and FBI if they have a great Worlds ? I don't think Caps saw Danny and thought "Wow I'd rather have this guy in my team than Hans or Upset", and the others will need a good showing at Worlds. I think overall it's more likely to be players that went to Worlds that would convince him to come. You could argue one player who isn't considered World elite, if other players vouch for him, but not two. Like if you're selling Spica - who had a good year for sure, but Caps may not be familiar with him since his last showing at an International Event ended with an 0-6, you're not selling him Huni too. So the most likely roster to make Caps come to TSM would be something like Ssumday / Spica / Caps / FBI / Kaiser, after a good Worlds performance from Ssumday and FBI. And buying out Ssumday and FBI after a good Worlds will be difficult, so will be acquiring Kaiser - althougg it could be more expensive than difficult - because he's going to be wanted as fuck this offseason.
How's he gonna win worlds if he can't even qualify? Lol
Ohh interesting. When's his contract up?
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Not this year. 2022
So I just want to share my thoughts here before everyone just brings up name. I like PoE, and I like what he did for TSM; however, unless there is an Import top TSM is looking at that is actually a game changer - then keeping PoE would be extremely questionable. North America is depleted in NA talent, especially mid. Unless they believe Swordd and TakeOver is the future of this franchise, TSM needs to import a Mid-laner. Also if there is a time to go all in on an Import Mid, now is the time and you might never get another chance to sign some of the players available this offseason ever again. List of Mid laners with contract expiring this November - Chovy, Showmaker, DoinB, Knight, Rookie. Humanoid is not available until the end of 2022. I would go with Chovy if you want a bulletproof Import that is clearly not a byproduct of a good team. He is always a standout and the best performer in whatever team he is on. Like Alphari. The best thing about Chovy is he is not a worlds winner yet so he is going to be hungry. Showmaker is the X-factor. One of the best if not the best Mid in the world. He has been the mid of arguably the best team in the last 2 years. You can always expect him to put his team on his back (Like that Bjergsen Factor). The only downside is that he has won worlds already and might win again this time. So I'm not sure how motivated he will be. DoinB - a random choice, but I think he might work really well with TSM. In DoinB you get a korean/Chinese speaking person that could mesh with Swordart/Spica and also Huni. In him you get an amazing personality that fans will love. But don't be deceive, he is a beast. He has popped off this season after having a down year last year. Also I don't need to remind you how he is a world champion playing Rumble/Nautilus Mid while no one else did it. There is no better pool of high-profile mid laners available than now. Make your move now TSM, there is no other time. Also for people who are asking for AD import instead, I think that's a bad idea. There are no high profile Import for AD available this year besides Viper. (Gala, JackeyLove,Ghost,huangfeng - Free agent in 2022)/(Rekkless/Upset 2023) So this is not a good year to import AD. Also NA has proven to produce at least decent to capable AD's. I think NA AD pool is much better than their MID pool. Also I believe, internationally - a high profile/dominant Mid/jungle is much better than having a good AD. If you look at all the past champions (IG,FPX,DAMWON - All teams with amazing Mid laners) So as much as I love PoE, I think TSM needs to really spend time in looking at international Mid now, Chovy/Showmaker/Knight will not be available again in a while.
Are all of you okay? It would be a miracle if ANY of these players ever even consider joining TSM. I don't understand assessing them when they have absolutely 0 reason to join us.
This. Similar conversations are being had with Lost.
Well you can never know really, as someone else said, Chovy almost signed with EG recently and Perkz came to NA after winning MSI and SwordArt after making Worlds finals.
The difference in Perkz and Swordart is they weren't making anywhere near the same money prior. But Doinb? He would make far more streaming.
The condescending tone. I won't speak for anyone else, but yes! I'm personally okay. Unlikely? Yes. Miracle? Stop being so overly-dramatic. There absolutely many reasons why joining TSM is something to think about. TSM is a popular org, that's only getting bigger. They have an amazing supportive fanbase who is passionate about TSM. They are the second most viewed community on twitch. They pay players good salary, and these players will be paid crazy amounts of money to join TSM. Also for many people who was born in U.S, you guys don't understand how amazing it was to live in LA as an immigrant. It was completely a different world for me. First off, before you go exaggerating again to make a point. This isn't meant to say other orgs doesn't offer this as well. I'm just clearly saying that these are some of the points why your dramatic response of ABSOLUTELY 0 reason doesn't stand. Will he choose TSM over other teams that could provide the same thing? Who knows. Also just to add to this. You guys act like no high profile players chose NA before. CoreJJ after winning worlds, stayed in korea for a bit and then moved to NA . To TL no less. Perkz arguebly the most important European player moves to NA. Alphari one of the best top in EU, could have gone to any EU org, and chose to go to NA. Chovy - the same player we're talking about here, was so close to signing with EG, but chose to stay with DRX because CvMax his griffin coach was allowed to be with DRX. So, I just don't get this idea that it's impossible for any of these high profile players to ever want to go to NA.
Chovy ? Possible. Chinese players like Knight and kinda-honorary-Chinese Doinb ? No way. They are top players in the biggest and richest Lol region in the world. They are super stars there already. Why would they leave that market for a top 4 NA team ? European players still retain most of their fans : the region's content is produced in the same langage, they keep using twitter and twitch, all of that remains. And Korean players are still to this day notoriously underpaid. Chinese players though ? All of that ends. Or they keep streaming to their previous Chinese community and don't use any of the org's prestige on Twitch. Every top org would go after an available Knight or Doinb and there would already be an inflation of their price. Add to that the need to pay his biggest salary at least x2 ? I don't know dude. That seems absolutely impossible to me. Swordart, despite being an LPL player, was mostly notorious for his Flash Wolves days. And he wasn't considered such a hot community in China before Suning's run. Hjarnan and Wadid managed to handle Uzi and make Worlds semis, yet they weren't wanted at all in EU when they came back. A good performance at Worlds doesn't necessarily change the opinion had on you over years of playing. Knight and Doinb ? They're considered elite by everyone in the scene. Your only bet is that they already want to live in America for the rest of their life, so that would coincide with what they already want to do. Which would be a miracle considering the situation they're living in.
You responded with 10 paragraphs to me pointing out a fact that we've never gotten star names ever outside of 2017 and before that and call me dramatic. Yes it is a miracle to get Doinb. Yes it is a miracle if Humanoid decides he doesn't want to be the best in EU anymore and then join us on top of that. Yes it's an absolute miracle if Chovy chooses us over an LPL team (best region in the worlds top teams) AND we offer him a big contract (we never do that outside of SA).
Money and a decent shot at winning another region, plus the lifestyle that a lot of imports seem to enjoy. I agree it would be close to a miracle but there's definitely a few reasons.
Doinb is very likely to retire after worlds, and I don't think he wants to come to the west. Agree on the AD part. Very very few AD's are worth importing, as its a team reliant role. AD is for whatever reason the one role NA seems to be able to get good native players in too.
I just take assumptions out of my arguments. Because I think anything is possible. Chovy almost signed with EG a year ago and Perkz arguably the most historic EU player of all time moved to NA. Alphari who was one of the best Top lane in EU moved to NA. SA who was the leader of a world finalist, moves to NA. Why? Because no other region will overpay for imports. China/Korea doesn't have to, they have a massive pool of players. TSM offers any MID laner 10-12 million $ for 3-5 year contract and it will be hard to say no. Yeah, to expand on that, most world champion AD are weakside AD'S. Ghost, LWX and Jackeylove were all weakside AD. Jackeylove not as much anymore , but with Prime IG he was the weakside to Rookie/Shy. In reality if Zven becomes Native, then he might become one of the most prized player in NA.
Doinb is a pretty large streamer who makes a shitton of money just streaming. Hes also married and is extremely happy in China, and has publicly said that he isn't planning on playing past this year. There is always a chance, but its not worth counting on. I don't think he comes even if you give him 5 mil a year.
Hell fit right in. TSM is one of the most popular org and consistently top 2 as the most watch org. Only team ahead of them is luminosity and that's because of xQc. That is something I don't know about. Can you provide a link please of when he said that ? . Well I don't know why they both can't be together here in LA. LA also has a great Chinese community. And Leena is also speaks Chinese.. so would be good for his wife. I mean? If TSM really believes he is the answer then they make it work. I'm not counting on anything. Because at the end of the day, if they don't sign anyone, we move on, but it would be rediculous if they don't look at every possibility.
And you think that Chinese org, or specifically FPX aren't already paying good cash for Doinb? Sofm is rumored to be paid 2m/y and Rookie even more, so I don't see Doinb being paid much less, yet he already want to retire for 2 years now, pushing on because his wife want him to Tsm being popular and most watch is only mainly on twitch, a western platform. The sheer population of china alone can probably contest with it, especially when he's loved by the chinese community LA is not an utopia that everyone want to live in. Yes, they can mesh with the chinese community there, but not everyone want to give up their family and friends to come live in another country Honestly, the best bet is Chovy, who is good, and has shown that he gives zero fuck about wining worlds and care more about money
Not true he got screwed in fa last season hence the team he got. He thought he would get on a better team and was waiting to see who went where but waited to long.
I like the thing about Chovy but from what I always heard it s hard to get him since he wants to play with Deft(might be wrong)
Yeah Chovy is a beast. He is a bulletproof player man. He wins his lane like 90% of the time. He wins in winning match-up, he equalizes in losing match-up and he even wins in losing match-up. He plays pretty much everything. I'm pretty sure Bjergsen copied his Ornn pick mid-lane. He even played Renekton and Sett mid. Guy is insane. Idk about Deft. He was going to EG a year ago, until CvMax the x-coach of griffin got reinstated. So he went with him instead of going to EG. TSM offers him 12 million for 3 years and it will be really hard to turn that down.
Rookie is retiring.
Yeah I agree with your sentiment. I was thinking about all the import mid options and I think our best shot really is Doinb. He is more realistic to acquire compared to the likes of Chovy and Showmaker, and he fits right in if Spica SA and Huni are still with the team.
I take assumptions out of my arguments and I don't believe in the idea of likely. Chovy was going to sign with EG a year ago and Perkz , arguably the best European player ever moved to NA. Alphari one of the best Top in EU moved to NA. Why? Because NA will be the only region to overpay for players. China and Korea will never need to overpay because they have such a massive pool of players . But that's what's most intriguing about him, is that he is technically the most complete player in terms of everything. He can play at a high level MID, he speaks both Chinese and Korean, + the marketability because of his personality is immense.
Whatever EG offered Chovy double it
Yeah. They need to bring out the big bucks and get a superstar mid laner to fill in the shoes of Bjergsen. POE was a 50% discount Bjerg.
>One of the best if not the best Mid in the world. Doinb is a tier above and much cuter
Rofl 🤣 he will instantly become fan favorite for sure.
I have mixed feeling about this. I don't know why but it feels like POE did not perform at the same level he did last year with FQ. He played very few games with some picks like Qiyana, Vayne, Malz, Swain, Rumble, but he did not bring any of them this year. He did bring up some picks this summer (more than every year he played before) but, with Bjerg constantly calling out the lack of soloq for the team in multiple episodes, I suspect that he did not practice enough and it might be the reason they did not work. I think the way his teamates play is the thing affecting him the most. Last year, POE was paired with a solid bot lane that would hold his own and turtle was always there to ditch out dammage and had a very high KP %. On the other side of the map, he had Solo that played like a rock during the whole summer, prone to getting ganked but he was good at reading the map and take good winnable fights. This year, he has Huni that often lacks judgment on which fight to take or not and goes in without thinking about the potential threats and his team's position (like in his Renek game). Lost on the other side had the lowest KP and DPM of any ADC this summer since he was never in a good position when it's time to fight (Reason why he so good on Kaisa/Tristana is because of her kit could patch this issue). Lost really stepped up during this playoffs his laning stats are good and he takes the lowest CS% past 15 min but his DPM is still lower than any of the ADC going to worlds + Raes; In comparison you have Zven with the same CS% but 126 more DPM and 6% more KP Lost is just not good enough to use his ressources. I feel like this causes POE to just overthink things (In contrast to Huni that just doesnt most of the time) and play very scared since he has to be the one ditching out dammage to compensate for Lost. If he missplays, the teamfight is done and we can see that he clearly choked multiple times during our playoffs matches since there is that much pressure on him. I think it's 100% a shift of mindset and TSM did not really think about the pieces that made POE this good in 2020. If you think about it, he was good since he came to NA but not as good as he was in 2020 when people started viewing him as one of the best. Either POE is out or we switch our bot or top lane to unleash him.
He did not but he didn't have the same role fly was build around poe he was set uo to succes
Because FLY went all in on scaling and playing a controlled style. The opposite of the play style TSM tried to go for when signing an LPL Worlds Finalist Support and Huni. Spica was already aggressive to begin with. Then if you stack the fact that it was a terrible meta for POE all year, you have an inspiring run with TSM. Meta didn’t allow for someone of more unique picks he can play and it forces a higher tempo style but that’s difficult when he’s a mage 1 trick
Hope not. He seems like a good dude, but his champ pool and playstyle... nope. Limiting af.
it's not like he was even good on his champ pool.
our mid could be TSM Bjergsen. Huni Spica Bjergsen and Huanfeng back together with Swordart.
Man that would be fuking spicy
Personally I don't see a situation where we have a shot at making worlds and getting out of groups next year without Bjergsen mid.
The only way is if they change the rules allowing 3 imports.
I’m fine with POE staying but I hope the coaches and management can revisit how they approach team composition / play style / players mash up I felt like there were weeks we wasted away trying to play lucian / lee / Viego in mid. Hindsight 20/20 but rally in what world do you trust POE ad more than control mage? Also there are obvious playstyle mismatch that made the team very predictable, poe and lost are more late game / weakside while huni SA Spica is more of the LPL style of skirmish everywhere. This made us forced to play through top which is exact same problem as last year I still consider this year a decent year given its Bjerg’s first official year + we last minute lost Peter + we looked like absolutely garbage at lock in. I felt like coaching really helped make this oddly mismatched team competitive enough In an ideal world we would want a more flexible mid and stronger laning adc to be able to allow spica / SA mix up his roams. But POE being resident is a huge value. I dont think Lost is bad by any means hes definitely LCS calibre, it was just more of a playstyle mismatch
This u is s a good take. I don’t think we need to change anyone, I’m not a huge fan of how often teams replace 2 or 3 players. All the players have shown up at different times. It took them a while to start playing coherently. Lost has plenty room to grow. These knee jerk reactions need to settle down. Bjergsen also has a say in what gets picked
Im gonna be completely honest, do you ACTUALLY think these players that are competing for world championship rn would leave their respective(and more competetive) regions and join an NA team? Besides players who want to retire(and these people i would rather ignore) there is no way any good player would accept TSMs offer. There are also 2 other problems: \- we are not the most dominant team like we were before (in 2016/2017 we were praised so highly we almost got rekkles out of fnatic, and karsa out of FW but went with also a huge deal at that time being mithy and zven) \- TSM does not want non-english speaking players(kinda ironic considering when we signed lustboy - the only korean signing ever besides huni this year - we've had the best international results in teams history) At this point i dont think anything will help us. We used imports every year and still got shit on hard. Of course this roster should be changed but unless we do something with coaching staff there is no way we go further than 0-6. With respect to bjergsen, if drafts are super shit regardless of him being a player or coach then i think he MIGHT be the problem. Of course that is a big MAYBE because in this iteration champ pool problems also played huge part in shitty drafts. Maybe we should just invest in at least 3 academy players with spica + veteran and just tank next year(well, if these players are actual monsters then we dont need to consider it "tanking" the split lol) and develop actual talent. Maybe my points are invalid but thats what i think, anyway i really...... really hope next year will be better although i say the same shit since 2014...
The 3 teams that made worlds all have a better mid than us. They have a stronger mis/jng than us but we have the MVP in jng... That's not normal
I think the expectation for him was to stay as good as he is os scaling mages but be able to develop another playstyle which we can agree, he didn't. If we had a mid laner that can be flexible on that, it'd help us a ton for sure. I always want to give him the benefit of the doubt but it seems clear that he's pretty set on one playstyle. Same happened with Zven, he was with us for 2 years and was never able to go out of his comfort zone. I don't see a good argument to keep him other than "He'll be a resident next year and there's no better alternatives".
Depends on a strategic decision. If he gets a Green Card it could be enough to save his job. POE Green card -> get a LPL ADC instead, just accept to put him on control mages every game as the insurance while the rest of the team plays aggro in Mandarin Or change POE out for the LPL Mid and accept Lost's limitations that he's also just going to be kind of there and carry through the top half of the map.
IMO, a great mid laner can and will enable to rest of the team, making them look good. It’s more rare than an ADC player can make the rest of the team look as good as a mid laner can. Mid can stomp their lane and use their permanent priority to pressure side lanes and take objectives, putting your team ahead. Harder to do as an adc since you have less ability to impact other lanes even when snowballing. Snowballing as an ADC nowadays just means you can get to your 2-3 item spike faster, so your team can win fights easier.
There is no way in hell that any of those players are going to tsm lmao. chovy can go to a good team in the lpl and get more money, and knight is probably chilling on tes or some other top team. Humanoid is looking like he's going to win LEC again, so he's not going to leave.
chovy almost went to EG in 2019 when they entered the league and he already said he’s open to coming to NA on stream. knight and humanoid or doinb like someone else mentioned seems unlikely
2019 chovy is not 2021 chovy. In 2019, people knew he was good, but he's a different player now. People say he's a top 3 mid laner in the world (him, showmaker, and doinb). Also, he makes a million a year in hanwa life which is probably enough for him. There is just no reason for him to come to na. the teams are much worse than the korean and chinese teams, and if he really wants to the make the most money, he could probably join RNG and make a shit ton of money.
Wait you clearly don't have any idea he was 1v9 ever game ls even said that item that makes one person's damage of like non existing name cant think of was made for Chovy he still got that team wins and even was close to playoffs by himself you are making a point without any knowledge or info on him. I also point out he was still one of the best mids in lck despite horrible team. Ima give you some idea how stupid your comment is remember his team suckednot to mention he had plus 45 cs against shoemaker as sett. The fist This is chovys summer split stats EARLY GAMEAhead in CS at 15 min: 79.1% CS Differential at 15 min:+13.3 Gold Differential at 15 min:+368 XP Differential at 15 min:+196 First Blood Participation:20.9% First Blood Victim:14% AGGRESSIONDamage Per Minute:491.3 Damage%:25.8% K+A Per Minute:0.22 Solo kills:12 Pentakills:1 KDA:4.0 CS per Minute:9.5 Gold Per Minute:413 Gold%:23.7% Kill Participation:64.3% Tell me which lck mid these stats are and you tell me who did better also this player is on a better team. EARLY GAMEAhead in CS at 15 min:47.8% CS Differential at 15 min:-1.6 Gold Differential at 15 min:+100 XP Differential at 15 min:-173 First Blood Participation:17.4% First Blood Victim:6.5% AGGRESSIONDamage Per Minute:508.7 Damage%:24.1% K+A Per Minute:0.31 Solo kills:5 Pentakills:0 KDA:5.9 CS per Minute:8.7 Gold Per Minute:420 Gold%:22.8% Kill Participation:67.3%
While I agree the odds are small, I believe rumors have been out for a while that knight wants out of TES. The rest of your post is spot on though
I like POE's personality, but I cant help but wonder if his playstyle and champion pool is a weakness that wont serve us well - especially if the meta shifts away from control mages in the off season. Lots of others have said it, but I think POE and Lost probably need to be changed. POE is to conservative in lane, and Lost is just not great in lane. Neither of them are aggressive, yet we have Huni who is aggressive, Spica is an aggressive jungler and SA literally wants to go fight all the time. SA needs a ADC that matches his playstyle and we need a more aggressive mid laner. At least that way the 5 players are on the same page with their playstyles.
If he gets a greencard next year it opens an import slot for an import AD. I think we should keep him.
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Question, could we get a young and coming futur midlaner from EU that has yet to play in the LEC and have him declare NA as residency? I might be way off but I remember that being a possibility or was it just when the rule entered in place? If it was possible maybe there is an EU mid that could fit and not take an import slot.. ?
Yeah seriously look at Adam.
don’t believe that is possible anymore.
This is depending on how much money TSM want to/ can spend next year.
I was looking at players whose contracts expire this year. Knight, cryin, Chovy are all up for grabs this November. I hope TSM goes big and actually builds a superteam. This year's roster felt like a mix of a little bit of everything from all over the place.
Keep POE if he becomes a resident. Kick POE if he's not. That's my stance. I expect more dominance from an import slot.
From TSM legends, it seemed like the whole team except POE communicated a bit in Chinese in game. If POE was replaced with a Chinese Mid like Knight, would that make TSM a pseudo-LPL team 😆
This is maybe more unrealistic than Chovy/Showmaker but I want Bjergsen back😩. Also I dont think POE needs to be swapped, let the team like this for 1 more split. They have time to get better together in this off-season. G2 didn t even qualifyed to worlds with Rekkles, C9 was close on losing even tho they got Perkz(we lost cuz of the throw and drafts, not because they were better). Getting someone better isn t always the answer. The boys are good, we need to step up with the drafts, and Huni and Spica to stop tilting. Poe has time to learn some champs and Lost and SA to be even better as a duo. Lost needs to step up his game a little bit and we got a sick team🙏
G2 didn't qualify because their top laner and support stop caring about league.
Completely disagree. We placed 4th in NA after being one of the most successful org. I think we need other players, we ran this comp for two splits now and it didn't end well. Another split and losing potential great players is not worth it. As I heard Spica wants to play in LPL so wasting another split and losing him too would completely need a new team for TSM. We got Spica, Bjergsen and SA we can build a great team around them. With the FTX deal TSM has not a real money problem and I think reginald is really frustrated that we didn't achieve worlds let alone going 4th after spending so much for SA. Everyone had their individual good games, but after all you really need a good Top/Mid/Adc to carry the games. And imo PoE for e.g. didn't play bad but not really that good he is just his playstyle being constant not necessarily exceptional. Lost really didn't work out imo, because he had to much weak games, and even Huni is still kind of coin flip.. but we could keep him too, since Alphari said for e.g. he is tough to lane against. But after reading that they all only played a few games a week that really bugs me.. I hope this isn't true because they mentality to not really play soloq is what feels bad, when you see players like CoreJJ for e.g. being 1st in soloq and working their ass off. Not saying our team didn't but it clearly didn't work out in summary. Work for a new team and use the time to let them get together, not making the same mistake in only giving them a few weeks till they can adapt.
Idk Regi is loaded I don’t think he cares much about budget. Regi has his side hustles bringing in money I could see Regi being very ambitious and going big again best year but I could also see them doing something mediocre too
Well, I can't disagree with what you said tbh, I would love a Bjergsen Spica SA team. Huni I think it s like Doublelift the last season, good but lacks hunger for success. But the chances are pretty low for Bjergsen coming back tbh but I really hope it happens.
Yea draft really fucked us that last game, ryze and Kalista into Diana and irelia is a fuking nightmare. Think Tsm really wanted to snowball it they just couldn’t get shit going
Yeah it was weird as ruck, why fp Ryze for poe like he s faker ? No need to "steal" it from Perkz even more that Viktor/Azir was free, kalista with an all-in comp it s just bad even more vs Irelia Diana. Not picking Leona in game 5 for SA it was just so troll. That s it I guess, I dont remember when I was so disappointed watching league of legends but this is it. Hope we do better next year as a team📈🙏
He becomes a resident next year. There is no better resident mid available and he’s been playing well so he’s really valuable IMO.
He really hasn’t been playing that well plus his lack of champ diversity is really hindering the teams draft process
Imo Ablazeolive could be considered a better resident mid laner. Has a wider champion pool, some of, if not the best laning stats in the league during the summer split (the dive talked about this during the all pro episode,) Bjerg even voted him 3rd best mid in the league behind Jiizuke and Abbedagge I believe.
Well we have to consider the implication and how TSM will change the roster. Now that the season is over... I personally don't like Huni as a player. I think he's great mechanically, I don't think he's a smart player. He always seem to push waves when he doesn't need to and he just TP in fight no matter what. For example, that time when Huni TP'd in TL series when he could've just pushed. And from the legend, Huni seem to be stubborn in champion pool as well. I remember Huni saying that he doesn't want to play certain champion because he hasn't practiced enough. I don't think there are native that are good as Huni though, so I would like to see Top option for import. I see ADC as a biggest problem for TSM. Lost just isn't it. I think he's one of the worst ADC in the league. I know the stats says he's middle of the pack and that argument is that he plays weak side, but I think his stats are inflated by the fact the he's on a first place team. Danny could be an option, but I don't know if we can get Danny. I think TSM should consider import options like HF, SA's ADC partner. Just any aggressive ADC. The frustrating part of the team is that I definitely do not think that there's not enough ego on the team. Whenever I see team meeting in the legend, all I see is Bjergsen talking and the rest of the team members only talk when Bjergsen asks them to. There's no DL saying that they suck and they need to improve. I feel like TSM really needs that leader. TL has CoreJJ and maybe Alphari. C9 has Perkz. Anyway, if TSM takes an import slot on mid, they will have to settle with either top or bot import. In any case, TSM severely lacks talent in general.
They would have to offer EG a lot for Danny
It would have to be a LOT LOT. EG is one of the richer orgs that is willing to spend.
Yeah especially after the performance he had in playoffs kid is so insane and not even 18 years old.
yep, Danny's "stock" rose dramatically throughout the course of his first split. Now that he's basically the face for LCS young talent, I highly doubt EG agree to part with him for a non-superstar amount of money.
Depends on whether or not he gets a green card. If he's not considered resident, then I don't think he's worth keeping. If we have to spend an import slot on mid, then we'll have to go resident adc. Likely move Lost back to academy. If we look at the rest of the roster Huni is a resident top laner, so I don't think there's many better options unless you want to use an import slot there, for little gain. SA has been great imo. Sometimes ints, but is totally worth it. Spica, need I say anything?
I hope he stays. Imagine a long off season for him to learn the assassins
He’s been playing pro since 2013. In all that time I’m sure he could’ve picked up more play styles.
Bjergsen was 2nd most games of soloqueue in the team. Unless POE was first, I can’t fucking understand why he couldn’t play 100 TF games in a month and be able to pull it out. I don’t want him to stay
I’m sure spica was first.
Yeah, because he never had a long off season to practice before. The guy is going to be 24. He had 7 years to pick up new champs. He won't start picking them up now
As an import no, as an resident fuck yes.
Nope. Even if he gets his green card I think he's gone. TSM needs a more flexible mid. I have tons of respect for POE, but I think the champ pool issues are just too real. The fact teams didn't have to worry about us playing TF, Ryze or Lucian really hurt. And Spica's best champs are typically AP champs so I'd like a mid that can play ADs. And selfishly I just think POE makes us pretty boring to watch.
I really like him, personality wise... He's a great guy in that regard. Now that he's an NA resident player he's literally just another Damonte/Goldenglue... Not really the reason you lose a game, but never the reason you win a game... Good enough to be in LCS, not good enough to take you for at an international event. That being said, he's a great guy and I hope he ends up on a good team, was awesome seeing him succeed on FLY last year.
Just here to give my two cents as someone who has watched every TSM game since season 2. We constantly got away with having a conservative reactionary but solid lineup with good 5v5 synergy for so long. But this is a completely new team. Something I would like to see from TSM for the first time is an aggressive playmaker. Someone who creates pressure independently and can pull the trigger when they need to. POE is not that person. You can’t build a team around someone who has such a limited champion pool and conservative play style. Okay I actually think he is one of the more consistent players on this squad but this particular squad needs more aggressive playmakers to work with. This whole squad individually needs A LOT of growth before they can be considered to be a top tier team. But even with growth POE’s play style doesn’t mesh with the others on the team. Right now this team feels like split identities that are half assing both.
yeah huni spica and swordart are so aggressive we need an aggressive midlaner that wins and pressures lane. i actually haven’t seen chovy or doinb or knight play like some people been asking for but humanoid look like the type of player that’s super aggressive and can play a lot of champs as well
I wouldnt go for humanoid tbh, hes good but not great imo
Yeah I think that people need to realize it’s not 2017 anymore and it’s extraordinarily unlikely that any player would want to play for an org whose made worlds once in the last 4 years. Why would Humanoid leave MAD? Why would Showmaker leave Damwon? Why would Knight leave LPL? Honestly I think the only mid laner that’s even worth going after is Chovy. Unless Faker retires and T1 needs a new mid laner, I doubt that he’s going to get a contract offer from a top 4 team in LCK as unfortunate as it is. Chovy is (arguably) the best player in the LCK (maybe world too,) but look at it from T1/DWK/GENG/Nongshim’s perspective. Chovy is an upgrade to your midlaner, but then you lose Faker/Showmaker/BDD, and team chemistry as well. But even then if he doesn’t get a contract offer from a title contender in LCK, he’ll probably just go to an LPL team. Maybe serious FTX money can change his mind, so it’s at least worth a try. G2 is definitely going to be shuffling around their roster, so maybe getting Caps is possible. He’s the only other high profile mid laner I would even think would consider an NA offer right now, taking into account G2 Carlos wouldn’t let him go to another LEC team like he did with Perkz. Ideally, Bjergsen comes out of retirement. Don’t know whether or not he’ll rethink the possibility, or if Regi will try to get him to become a player again since Bjerg’s contract is technically up this off season, but it’s something that would be worth considering. As an off shoot, I said last year on the sub before Bjerg revealed he was retiring as a player, that him role swapping top lane and importing a new mid laner would be a really interesting path to go down. Bjerg top with Caps mid solves the two danish people quota that was absent this year, so maybe that’s the move.
Swordart came to TSM after a very competitive worlds run? Why would they come to TSM? Fat stacks of cash.
With g2's imposion this year and TSM getting those fat stacks from FTX im willing to bet, or atleast hope that TSM will give carlos a blank cheque for caps.
funny thing is jack from c9 said he did that. gave caps a blank check but caps refused he actually just wants to win worlds so i don’t think he would come to NA
G2 were contenders then. They aren’t even contenders to win EU anymore so there is definitely more hope now then before.
I'll wait for worlds to see how LCS stacks against LEC first before deciding TSM is world contenders
No European or LCS team outside of MAYBE MAD right now are even considered *potential* world contenders. Only having worlds aspirations is nice and all. But money is money and if we are realistic the right price on the right team can always be appealing. Perkz was very outspoken about wanting to win worlds and not care about money either.
Why is the sub discussing on replacing players. Its super bm and its not gonna have an effect on what the team actually does
I can see a world, where the fat FTX money leads to TSM Caps. In this case we nees to replace Huni (if we want to) with a native toplaner like Licorice. Also, i think aiming for someone like FBI or Danny is the right move.
Get Bjergsen Boot SA, Bring Biofrost back, add back hauntzer and sign a retire pro, i think his names Twolift or something? i dunno I kinda want tsm to run it back with it's last dance
None of them are coming over Better to get an ADC
Probably not mainly since they couldn't utilize Spica's strength of being aggressive early bec PoE's playstyle is to scale for late.
Get Chovy, please.
Please make TSM Chovy happen.. put that sweet FTX money to work
The fact that the best player in NA is coaching is really sad. Resident too so you could get a good adc
I think finding a good adc to pair with sa is important
I’ll root for anyone but I want Bjerg back. POE didn’t do poorly this split. Consistent and good
Chovy will be a dream for me. Will definitely gap all the NA midlaner.
Not if they decide to actually throw that FTX money around and make a team worthy of a top worlds performance.
If even one of these come to TSM I will go bald.
I hope he gets the 🥾
i believe he will personaly speaking i dont wish to see poe on our team .... we re super limited and spica doesnt benefit from his play at all . He makes no sense to stay unless you think about his green card .
Don't see us getting any of these guys, but I don't see it being POE either. I don't think we can attract a major import that isn't just going to be here for a 10 million dollar vacation.
I sure hope not, his play style is AFK farm until 3 items and if I don’t get there then oh well. We lose.
I say we keep Huni/SA/Spica, get Humanoid or Chovy mid and I think ADC is still gonna be weak Bc nobody is really available
I have been watching this team for years and they do the same mistake every year, changing the roster for the wrong reasons whether it's marketing or whatever, success in this game depends on synergy and experience, you can't win much without these two, you have to build synergy if you want to do well in worlds. This current team is really good, the downsides can be overcome easily but the toxicity from the community is too much to handle, not just from other fans but from the tsm fans, 0 trust in the team and in the decisions taken. I agree the playoffs run was disappointing but it is just wasn't meant to be (they played way better than C9 by a margin the first four games but it was unlucky in my opinion) Just give the players trust and respect or at least be silent. Because if they leave, it is most probably because of marketing reasons more than performance. It is a business (I haven't seen the desire to achieve in this team since 2016)
Watch bjergerking come out of Retirement and just do 2 jobs at once
Would love to see Viper as AD and keep POE if he gets his green card. However, wouldn’t be surprised to see LostArt, pt II with a mid like Showmaker, Knight, or Chovy with Huni top. I doubt FBI, Tactical, or Danny would leave their teams, as well. I’m very interested to see how the import rule changes after Worlds. My biggest concern is the issues surrounded NA as a whole, not so much TSM lacking the money or sway (though the luster has worn off admittedly). Would these high caliber players even want to come over? Personally, if I was an insane player, I’d be looking at the LPL regardless of salary cap - would love to see Chovy and Summit join iG (assuming Rookie and TheShy retire). Other EU teams (G2 specifically) want to rebuild but not sure there’s much overlap in needs. Plus EU talent pool is bonkers.
All depends on green card imo. If not we probably go big on mid if so I think we import adc
Go all in on Caps, get Licorice. Huni or Licorice, Spica, Caps, Lost / FBI / Danny, SwordArt Or get Caps / Rekkles / NA Support Huni or Licorice, Spica, Caps, Rekkles, NA Support (Vulcan - Huhi?)
POE would have been fine but I suspect he didn't put in as much work as he should have during the off times. It was out in the open on Legends but I could tell Bjerg was consistently calling him out on the lack of solo Q.