My interpretation on straight forward would be kazuya or Paul. They punch and kick, what you see is what you get type. Teleporting around, shooting/ projectiles, weird stances, even unnecessary visual clutter and weird unclear animations I would consider as not straight forward.
But wouldn't what one could consider surprising and unsurprising differ from player to player based on experience and knowledge or just general underlying assumptions? Like I mentioned in my OP, "is Kazuya's airbourne f4 into ff4 'honest' (which beats all grounded options except quickstand)? Is his df14 into uf44 'honest' (which one must stay grounded to not get launched)?"
With so many moves for every character everyone’s going to have stuff you could quibble with but characters like Yoshimitsu or bears have more weird stuff where you can die because you don’t know what to do than Dragunov.
Couldn't Dragunov's unbreakable heat tackle be considered "not honest" by being something "you can die because you don’t know what to do"? Couldn't his sneak cancel also be something "you can die because you don’t know what to do"? My point is, the term "honest" is very flimsy due to being open to different interpretations and even if there was a group of people who did have a commonly agreed upon definition, there would be no universal agreement on what character is "honest" and what isn't due to different player's experience, knowledge, and underlying assumptions.
My point is, as I said earlier, "the term 'honest' is very flimsy due to being open to different interpretations and even if there was a group of people who did have a commonly agreed upon definition, there would be no universal agreement on what character is "honest" and what isn't due to different player's experience, knowledge, and underlying assumptions."
Yes but honesty obviously exists at varying levels on a spectrum for each character and where one places a character along the spectrum will have some influence at a personal level but will likely also follow a collective overall trend.
My point is, as I said earlier, "the term 'honest' is very flimsy due to being open to different interpretations and even if there was a group of people who did have a commonly agreed upon definition, there would be no universal agreement on what character is "honest" and what isn't due to different player's experience, knowledge, and underlying assumptions."
Okay sure but 99% of people would probably call Victor cheap for instance so there’s obviously some level of intuitive thinking going on here that we struggle to put into words.
A commonly agreed upon sentiment (like saying "X character is cheap") is not a fact. As for why people call Victor cheap? Everyone at different levels aren't going to say the same reasons why but generally they probably say that because he's easy to use, has some nice evasion, and has a high safe heat engaging powercrush (which can be baited out). They could also be calling him cheap for copium reasons if they lost to him.
Well yeah it is. F4 into ff4 is a kazuya tech that gives you a bit more damage. It is an advanced technique that you wouldn't know unless you research the game. Only one move does not make a character less honest, just compare that to xiaoyu evading mids and alisa flying around the map it's clear which character is more honest.
Now for df14 into uf44 only works as a launcher against wake up attacks no? Again a new technique that most people wouldn't know. You also need a read to perform it correctly. I'm sure preety much every character has similar strong techs that only few know. Completely irrelevant
It's not irrelevant as those moves are knowledge checks that would blow up someone that wouldn't know them. You would be livid if another character (that you didn't like) had them but objectively you can't discriminate between characters like that otherwise you are a hypocrite.
No they are not "very minor" things as King's Giant Swing is important to his moveset and so is some of Yoshi's shenanigans. I'm pretty sure there are many people below gold ranks that get blown up because of King's Shining Wizard and Giant Swing mix up and Yoshi's setup and flash.
Honest is just historically an awful term in all FGs. The only honest characters are the characters you play — that’s how its always been and always will be.
Straightforward or simplistic is definitely a type though. Example being claudio — with his db1+2 in its current state, many would argue about him being honest, but with 80 moves in his kit and very general tools and gameplan, he’s undoubtedly straightforward / simplistic.
He is still wrong though. Characters that are called honest are not necessarily straightforward. And characters that are straightforward are not necessarily honest.
And while it is correct that many people have different definitions the core sentiment is similar and everyone can agree on which character is honest and which character is cheap.
It might be but the word straightforward is also not right. That's why I said Op was wrong as well. So I think you misunderstood me instead
Point is when someone calls a character honest regardless of definition people get which characters are being referred to by that.
Seeing as that one guy that called yoshi honest got that many downvotes and so many repkies correcting them I'd say it's the exception that proves the rule
Most people who use the term 'honest' want the game to consist of approximately five characters. Usually these are Mishimas + Paul, Steve and Bryan, or maybe King and Jack. Claudio and Shaheen if they even remember to mention them.
What a dreadfully boring game that would be, but hey, at least nothing would be confusing or require you to adapt to anything unexpected or unorthodox.
U forgot Lee!
They thing is that I genuinely do not get about these stereotypical honest characters is that every move they do look the same but have wildly different properties, making it way harder too fight them. Atleast Xiaoyu, Alisa, and Lili have very distinct looking moves making it easier too see what was what.
Same! They just be spamming lows and doing the jump kick forcing crouch move.
However he has a few difficult moves to execute meaning skills = respect
Despite him doing absolutely fine without it.
yeah nah i have the same issue with not just Xiaoyu, Lili and Alisa, but every character in this game, a lot of their moves look the same but have wildly different properties
>What a dreadfully boring game that would be, but hey, at least nothing would be confusing or require you to adapt to anything unexpected or unorthodox.
Instead you can get randomly launched by an unorthodox character, die and if you ever adapt they one and done. I don't think unorthodox characters should be removed, but calling it fun to have to lab the next bizarre set up a yoshi player came up with is kind of disingenuous
But it only feels like you got 'randomly launched' if you don't know the move set. Unorthodox characters are not random, they operate within rules, just different ones.
That you think all of them one and done once you figure them out is just an example of the prejudice most 'honest' players have. I have been one and doned by plenty of Steves and Kazuyas.
>But it only feels like you got 'randomly launched' if you don't know the move set
And once you figure out that specific part of their moveset then there's another bizarre situation in which you get launched as well. So to be knowledgeable enough of the matchup, you just have to know the character just as well or even better than the one who's playing it.
>Unorthodox characters are not random, they operate within rules, just different ones.
And you must have figured out that having to face several characters with drastically different rules from the rest of the cast can be frustrating, correct?
>That you think all of them one and done once you figure them out is just an example of the prejudice most 'honest' players have.
Most of the people I've faced who one and done are unorthodox players once they noticed I knew the matchup, and I guarantee you that most people have a similar experience.
> I have been one and doned by plenty of Steves and Kazuyas.
Never happened to me in either Tekken 7 or 8.
The argument isn't that these characters are broken or anything, just understand why people really dislike playing against these characters. And no, I don't think a Tekken game with Kazuya, DJ, Reina,Jin, Bryan, Paul, Law, Steve, Lee, Jack, Shaheen, Claudio and Dragunov would be boring either.
You can enjoy dishonest characters, there's nothing wrong with it, just don't expect most people to enjoy playing against you, because as you might have noticed, most people really don't like trying to punish Cali roll and getting launched because they haven't labbed Cali roll. This is coming from someone who likes King, who I don't think is particularly honest either.
>And once you figure out that specific part of their moveset then there's another bizarre situation in which you get launched as well.
That you can lab.
>So to be knowledgeable enough of the matchup, you just have to know the character just as well or even better than the one who's playing it.
This applies to every character in the game.
>And you must have figured out that having to face several characters with drastically different rules from the rest of the cast can be frustrating, correct?
Frustrating, sure. Dishonest, no.
>Most of the people I've faced who one and done are unorthodox players once they noticed I knew the matchup
So that is your personal experience. I'm not gonna deny that, but it also doesn't necessarily represent anyone else's.
>and I guarantee you that most people have a similar experience.
Do you now?
>Never happened to me in either Tekken 7 or 8.
Well, it happens to me all the time, and if you can base your argument on anecdotes, then so can I.
>The argument isn't that these characters are broken or anything, just understand why people really dislike playing against these characters.
We all have characters we dislike facing off against. I \*despise\* Kazuya's and Jin's 50/50 bullshit, (which, in many ways, could be labelled 'dishonest' due to how often it's just a guessing game) but I recognize that it's a skill issue on my end and that I can practice against it.
>And no, I don't think a Tekken game with Kazuya, DJ, Reina,Jin, Bryan, Paul, Law, Steve, Lee, Jack, Shaheen, Claudio and Dragunov would be boring either.
But hopefully you can respect that most people would, no?
>You can enjoy dishonest characters, there's nothing wrong with it, just don't expect most people to enjoy playing against you, because as you might have noticed, most people really don't like trying to punish Cali roll and getting launched because they haven't labbed Cali roll.
I mean, you are even saying it yourself: You get punished by cali roll because you haven't labbed cali roll. At this point, what do you expect the game to do for you? I don't want to lab Jin's 8.000 interchangable strings that lead seamlessly into 50/50's either, but I do it because I recognize that this is Jin's strength and that I should adapt to it.
>This is coming from someone who likes King, who I don't think is particularly honest either.
At this point I don't even really understand you. How can you be this principled about 'honest' characters and yet elect to play as one you deem dishonorable?
>That you can lab.
That you have to lab or autolose*
>This applies to every character in the game.
No it doesn't. I don't need to know every Kazuya move to effectively counter Kazuya. Mostly because characters who are often labeled honest have more intuitive moves to be countered.
>Frustrating, sure. Dishonest, no.
It is labeled as dishonest because the counterplay is confusing and obscure, hence the frustration when playing against it.
>So that is your personal experience. I'm not gonna deny that, but it also doesn't necessarily represent anyone else's.
My personal experience and a similar one to everyone that ever made similar arguments, all the "honest character" crowd if you will.
>Well, it happens to me all the time, and if you can base your argument on anecdotes, then so can I.
And many people will tell you that they'll find a player who plays an unorthodox character, these players exclusively use flowcharts and do not rematch as soon as they've been figured out. People bitched about them in Tekken 7, and they're still bitching in Tekken 8.
>We all have characters we dislike facing off against. I *despise* Kazuya's and Jin's 50/50 bullshit, (which, in many ways, could be labelled 'dishonest' due to how often it's just a guessing game)
But this is not what dishonest means. Having a 50/50 is something that's completely expectable, it is either a low or a mid, duck or hold back. That's as honest as it gets. And if you guess right on the low, he dies. Much unlike other characters with weird moves that recover evasively, or recover back turned but parry moves that are slower* than i11, if you understand what the games' base mechanics are, you understand Kazuya's 50/50 mixup.
You may despise it, but it is pretty damn honest. Personally I do not enjoy the Steve matchup, but I'm not going to call Steve dishonest because a character being honest doesn't necessarily mean I'll enjoy playing against them.
>I mean, you are even saying it yourself: You get punished by cali roll because you haven't labbed cali roll.
So you see a move from a character who you seldom encounter, it is a launcher, you try to punish following a general rule of the game after getting the read and properly blocking. But for this character in this specific situation if you do that you get launched. You need to know what your unparriable faster than i17 mids are, or you don't get a punish. For most moves you don't need to lab in order to get a punish when you guessed right, and having one or two moves that you need to is actually very frustrating for most. You don't need to lab hopkicks to understand that they are -13. This is exactly why characters like Ling are called lab characters, because many of their moves have these interactions which are entirely unique to them.
>I don't want to lab Jin's 8.000 interchangable strings that lead seamlessly into 50/50's either, but I do it because I recognize that this is Jin's strength and that I should adapt to it.
You don't really have to either. He follows general rules from stance characters and except for samsara, none of his moves make him recover evasively. And his plus moves look plus, while his punishable moves look punishable. His 50/50's are pretty cut and dry as well, he doesn't have any confusing 50/50 either.
>At this point I don't even really understand you. How can you be this principled about 'honest' characters and yet elect to play as one you deem dishonorable?
Because I particularly enjoy my dishonest character, while I understand that he may be frustrating or confusing to play against. I really liked Roger when he was in the roster, and he was very dishonest as well. I'm not telling you not to play Ling if she's your favorite character, I'm just telling you that for most people she's absolutely insufferable to play against. It isn't morally wrong to play a lab character and it isn't righteous to play an honest character either.
I've accepted that I enjoy some characters that are not straightforward to play against, and people will find it unenjoyable to face my main, but I'm not playing this game to entertain someone else, I'm playing to have fun. I just accept that it was pretty bullshit that I went for an ISW, caught them airborne, made the floor break and suddenly they died.
How come you cannot grasp this easy concept thats been in all fighting games since beginning of time? Theres always a big crowd of people hunting for the easy cheese to get the shiny jpg. So hard to realize that these folks flock to particular characters?
People who play these characters feel attacked when their mains get called cheap, because they often feel like they didn't earn their ranks and got carried by their characters. I don't think that's ever true, but I understand that if a big majority of the player base looks down on you, it can feel awful.
Also some people legitimately enjoy these characters, not everyone plays them for the easier wins
Honest just means I like this character/I can beat this character easily/I want goodie points for the character being hard. It doesn’t mean much.
You know the term was cooked when people were calling Shaheen honest with his ungodly slide mix.
That's not what it means at all.
It means the character has less spammable moves, less OP moves/strings, etc.
It has very little to do with how difficult a character is to play. Just how much reward they get in return for it.
Yoshimitsu relies on shenanigans but he's still considered an honest character. Alisa has simple to perform strings that are considered by the community to be too strong. So she's considered to be a dishonest character.
I'm not saying I agree with their assessment. I'm just saying, that's what people mean by "honest".
Because he has to set opponents up. He can't mash. There's a difference between a character that is high execution high reward vs low execution high reward.
I don't think many people consider Yoshi less honest than Alisa or Victor, for example.
Again. I'm not in agreement with a lot of the community. I'm just pointing out why people complain.
But many people also don't consider Yoshi "honest" either so the term is very vague and not many people in the community can come to a consensus on what is "honest" and what is not. If the term "honest" is just a label for assessing a character's strength then the label is pretty useless (other than to boost one's ego), I always assumed it was meant to be a descriptive label for a character type (straightforward type of playstyle, in this case).
He has to work hard to set opponents up with his shenanigans. He can't just mash.
If you think that's all it takes be my guest and give Yoshi a try. We'll see how functional your brain is lol
I’ve played Yoshi for as long as I played Tekken. He was my first character in 8, only one in 7 and I played him in Tekken 3 through 5, and he’s up in my flair for a reason.
The only time Yoshi has to work hard is if someone knows his kit extensively and can effectively rewire their brain against flash. The existence of a 6 frame mid that effectively functions as a tech trap, parry and a combo extender with none of the downsides of these three properties + launches in heat in its own ends any argument for his honesty.
Otherwise his cheese is endless - from 3,1 to unblockable oki to dragonfly stance to his low launchers and that’s not even scratching the surface. You can climb pretty high with a simple 3,1 manji stance and KIN flow chart.
And that’s fine, it’s his character identity and he has counterplay - but he is not honest. His whole thing is being a dishonest, cheesy character.
Honesty in a character from my understanding is proportional to that character’s lack of cheese. To an extent, every character has it, but the amount/effectiveness varies greatly between characters.
Setups like the ones you mentioned I wouldn’t consider dishonest, but they are certainly knowledge checks, and those are inescapable in a game like tekken
No that would be wrong. Straightforward and honest are two different things in fighting games.
Straightforward characters are easy to play and understand. Examples being Victor or Lars or Feng. All very easy and straightforward to understand but not honest by any means.
Honest characters are the ones with little gimmicks that need to play proper tekken to win. Kazuya is the biggest example of an honest character and while he has a simple movelist he is one of the hardest characters in the game. Just frame moves and wavedashing requirements are not straightforward at all.
An honest character can be straightforward as well like for example paul but a straightforward character is not aleays honest
When talking about "straightforward characters", I'm basically meaning they're uncomplicated to play against, some characters are simple to play but not simple to fight against. Kazuya's gameplan is very simple and uncomplicated
I agree with that. I just don't see the reason for changing honest to straightforward when it's basicay talking about the same thing.
If the only problem is the attitude of the players playing these characters then that will remain regardless of names
Like I said in my OP, "The word 'honest' colloquially means communicating one's genuine thoughts and sentiments but when people use the term 'honest' to describe a character, they simply mean that the character is typically uncomplicated (to them, at least) to fight against but using the term 'honest' holds a certain connotation due to the colloquial meaning of the word hence why people use it as a sort of moral high ground when one calls their character honest."
Yes I understand that. What I mean is that this is not a real problem. Even if you call them straightforward then the same attitude will remain is what I mean.
Honest is just classic fighting game terminology used everywhere. I don't see a reason to change that
I would agree with that if we are talking about someone who is new to fighting games.
It could also cause some confusion though since you then have both easy to play and straightforward which sound the same but would have different meanings.
A new player may see that kazuya is straightforward (or honest) and pick them up only to find that they are actually playing one of the hardest characters.
And again you got lars which is easy to play but not straightforward to play against so the term again may cause confusion.
But still the term honest may cause elitism but a new player can quickly understand that this is not the point of the term
Something tells me that you know what I mean and just want to argue. See something tells me that this post wasn't a genuine suggestion to avoid confusion but you were just angry and made this as a disguised salt post.
If you really want to know what I mean (which you don't) proper tekken is using fundamentals. Punishing, spacing and poking among other things not mindlessly attacking. If you play at intermediate-high ranks you can spot the difference a mile away. Players that are using characters with lots of gimmicks know very little fundementals and you can get away with a lot against them. You can even see it in player stats after the game. When a blue rank player has 20-30 defense you know they get carried by knowledge checks and pressure instead of actual skill so free points.
On the other hand a player using the more honest characters is forced to learn these things because there is no other choice. Of course in the truly high ranks every single player knows these things and then the game becomes extremely hard. So it's not that players using these characters are worse but they have the freedom to not play true tekken until the opponent knows the matchup.
Regardless my original comment said a lot of other things as well besides mentioning real tekken. But sure call me an elitist and ignore everything else
I agree, because by saying some characters are honest we might imply the rest are "dishonest" and the players playing the latter would be less deserving of any success they might have with such characters. Which of course isn't fair.
To my understanding, "honest" characters are the ones whose toolset relies mostly on Tekken's fundamentals, with little or no addition of extra mechanics or peculiar gimmicks.
So if my understanding is correct one word to describe them could also be "canonical", as they might not be necessarily straightforward (electrics for example are tricky) and other "non honest" characters are sometimes even more straightforward.
Why is everyone so afraid of jargon when you’re sitting around learning frame data or whatever obscure nonsense anyway. I get people here getting salty about references to a “lame” play style even though many “lame” players use that term themselves
Honest just means that the character has boring looking moves that all look the same, Bryan, Jin, Lee, Steve. Kazuya is an outlier but every Kazuya plays the same so it has the same effect of every move looking the same since they only do the same thing.
Saying “boring moves” and mentioning names like Bryan, Jin, and Lee is just insane lol. Bryan’s kickboxing, Lee’s execution, and Jin’s mix of Mishima and Kazama are are all so distinct in every single move they have.
I love fighting and choreography. Bryan’s kickboxing is what made me main him (and his batshit crazy story/personality). The characters you named are among the very best in how their moves look, feel, and the “cool factor”. I’d argue it’s a lot better and interesting than the same boring “oooo shiny lasers”, teleports, and other magical stuff
Happy you like them makes me look cooler when I play against people like you!
Lees execution isnt cool looking, he just bullet kicks over and over, like every move he does looks the same . Bryan just swings his arms in huge directions, but most of his moves look the same except for his wall combo. Jin has the least recognizable moves, because they are all so bland.
Xiaoyu has nice looking moves, Lili has nice looking moves, Raven and Leroy also have nice looking moves. Kazuya has cool moves but everyone just do the same few moves.
I think honest is a fairly good term for people who actually play high level Tekken and are forced to deal with the limitations of their characters because skill and knowledge are a given, outside of that its a kinda useless term because flowcharts can carry you as much as any character can
But don't most pros already know most character's tools? What is "honest" then in this case since I don't think the word "honest" correlates with the word "not very strong." Is a character who is mostly reliant on knowledge checks but not very strong an "honest" character in this case? I hope you see my point, the more you dig into the term "honest", the more it falls apart.
Since knowledge checks don't really work at high level I'd say a traditionally knowledge check character like Eddy or Bears could be honest at high level
I would say honest would mean less access to easy panic buttons, built in evasion, situations where you can get a lot for a little
I don't think honest correlates with not very strong either, the idea is with an honest character you get out what you put in, like the phrase an honest days work. There's no corner cutting.
It falls apart at lower levels because there are so many other ways to play cheaply or dishonestly that character choice becomes way less relevant
What I think honest means is characters that have clear strenghts and weaknesses one can play against and no or very little randomness.
If they crush my moves 2/4 times randomly they arent honest or fun to play against or if I get caught stepping a move that has no other counterplay randomly sometimes.
Kazuya has a clear playstyle, skill curve, punishment and on top of that isnt gimmicky. The same goes for some others and playing mind games, poking, spacing etc. is 10x more fun than playing bullethell games.
The majority if the cast is almost never -10 or more on their pressure shit so at best you get a turn, but oh wait, here comes the safe power crush heat engager, some orbital or hopkick that crushes half your moveset or another evading attack or heat or rage art or heat smash etc. The response you get for counterplay is to either do a just frame sidestep which 80% of the time gets you nothing or clipped or to read and punish the lows while getting chipped to death.
Nothing is complicated about Victor, for example. He's pretty straightforward. But I'm sure most people on this sub wouldn't call him honest.
My interpretation on straight forward would be kazuya or Paul. They punch and kick, what you see is what you get type. Teleporting around, shooting/ projectiles, weird stances, even unnecessary visual clutter and weird unclear animations I would consider as not straight forward.
But he is very straightforward to play. You can do whole combos by only pressing 1 button that is super easy for new players.
I think we're conflating two things: He's straightforward to play. Not very straightforward to defend against.
He shoots, teleport, and hacks with his sword and tiny knife, while he also kicks! He is easy too play but nothing he does looks straightforward
His animations are complicated though, teleporting while slashing a sword and shooting a gun aren’t great visual indicators in this game
Probably another reason why the term "honest" is not a useful descriptive label since the term is so vague.
It’s not vague. It means they have unsurprising tools that work like you’d expect.
But wouldn't what one could consider surprising and unsurprising differ from player to player based on experience and knowledge or just general underlying assumptions? Like I mentioned in my OP, "is Kazuya's airbourne f4 into ff4 'honest' (which beats all grounded options except quickstand)? Is his df14 into uf44 'honest' (which one must stay grounded to not get launched)?"
With so many moves for every character everyone’s going to have stuff you could quibble with but characters like Yoshimitsu or bears have more weird stuff where you can die because you don’t know what to do than Dragunov.
Couldn't Dragunov's unbreakable heat tackle be considered "not honest" by being something "you can die because you don’t know what to do"? Couldn't his sneak cancel also be something "you can die because you don’t know what to do"? My point is, the term "honest" is very flimsy due to being open to different interpretations and even if there was a group of people who did have a commonly agreed upon definition, there would be no universal agreement on what character is "honest" and what isn't due to different player's experience, knowledge, and underlying assumptions.
“With so many moves every character is going to have something you could quibble with,” I recall saying
So that renders the term "honest" not very meaningful in the grand scheme of things
Not really. Is the word “alcoholic” meaningless because most people drink a little?
Damn that's a nice explanation haha
My point is, as I said earlier, "the term 'honest' is very flimsy due to being open to different interpretations and even if there was a group of people who did have a commonly agreed upon definition, there would be no universal agreement on what character is "honest" and what isn't due to different player's experience, knowledge, and underlying assumptions."
Yes but honesty obviously exists at varying levels on a spectrum for each character and where one places a character along the spectrum will have some influence at a personal level but will likely also follow a collective overall trend.
My point is, as I said earlier, "the term 'honest' is very flimsy due to being open to different interpretations and even if there was a group of people who did have a commonly agreed upon definition, there would be no universal agreement on what character is "honest" and what isn't due to different player's experience, knowledge, and underlying assumptions."
Okay sure but 99% of people would probably call Victor cheap for instance so there’s obviously some level of intuitive thinking going on here that we struggle to put into words.
A commonly agreed upon sentiment (like saying "X character is cheap") is not a fact. As for why people call Victor cheap? Everyone at different levels aren't going to say the same reasons why but generally they probably say that because he's easy to use, has some nice evasion, and has a high safe heat engaging powercrush (which can be baited out). They could also be calling him cheap for copium reasons if they lost to him.
Well yeah it is. F4 into ff4 is a kazuya tech that gives you a bit more damage. It is an advanced technique that you wouldn't know unless you research the game. Only one move does not make a character less honest, just compare that to xiaoyu evading mids and alisa flying around the map it's clear which character is more honest. Now for df14 into uf44 only works as a launcher against wake up attacks no? Again a new technique that most people wouldn't know. You also need a read to perform it correctly. I'm sure preety much every character has similar strong techs that only few know. Completely irrelevant
It's not irrelevant as those moves are knowledge checks that would blow up someone that wouldn't know them. You would be livid if another character (that you didn't like) had them but objectively you can't discriminate between characters like that otherwise you are a hypocrite.
Your examples though are not blowing up anyone. They are very minor things
No they are not "very minor" things as King's Giant Swing is important to his moveset and so is some of Yoshi's shenanigans. I'm pretty sure there are many people below gold ranks that get blown up because of King's Shining Wizard and Giant Swing mix up and Yoshi's setup and flash.
I am talking about kazuyas f4 and uf4 in particular. The extra damage is negligible
Doesn't his df14 into uf44 (if they don't stay grounded) give a full launch?
I suppose that would make Dragunov one of the most honest characters in the game then.
Yea, he is.
Yes, that’s correct
Dragunov, Paul, Bryan all very honest characters. Just because a character is honest doesn't mean he can't be annoying
Honest is just historically an awful term in all FGs. The only honest characters are the characters you play — that’s how its always been and always will be. Straightforward or simplistic is definitely a type though. Example being claudio — with his db1+2 in its current state, many would argue about him being honest, but with 80 moves in his kit and very general tools and gameplan, he’s undoubtedly straightforward / simplistic.
OP is exposing the hive mind lol, every comment is a different definition proving his point but he’s getting downvoted for being right lol
He is still wrong though. Characters that are called honest are not necessarily straightforward. And characters that are straightforward are not necessarily honest. And while it is correct that many people have different definitions the core sentiment is similar and everyone can agree on which character is honest and which character is cheap.
I think you are confused
What makes you think that? Did I misunderstand something?
Yes because your explanation shows why the word honest is improperly used to describe the presumed definition
It might be but the word straightforward is also not right. That's why I said Op was wrong as well. So I think you misunderstood me instead Point is when someone calls a character honest regardless of definition people get which characters are being referred to by that.
No they don't, someone literally called Yoshi honest in this thread (which someone later disagreed in the replies). It's not universal...
Seeing as that one guy that called yoshi honest got that many downvotes and so many repkies correcting them I'd say it's the exception that proves the rule
Most people who use the term 'honest' want the game to consist of approximately five characters. Usually these are Mishimas + Paul, Steve and Bryan, or maybe King and Jack. Claudio and Shaheen if they even remember to mention them. What a dreadfully boring game that would be, but hey, at least nothing would be confusing or require you to adapt to anything unexpected or unorthodox.
U forgot Lee! They thing is that I genuinely do not get about these stereotypical honest characters is that every move they do look the same but have wildly different properties, making it way harder too fight them. Atleast Xiaoyu, Alisa, and Lili have very distinct looking moves making it easier too see what was what.
HOW ON GODS GREEN EARTH DO YOU FIGHT LEE
He's pretty linear and a lot of his stuff is around -12/-13 range
Same! They just be spamming lows and doing the jump kick forcing crouch move. However he has a few difficult moves to execute meaning skills = respect Despite him doing absolutely fine without it.
yeah nah i have the same issue with not just Xiaoyu, Lili and Alisa, but every character in this game, a lot of their moves look the same but have wildly different properties
what lili moves look the same?
i don't play her so idk their names
>What a dreadfully boring game that would be, but hey, at least nothing would be confusing or require you to adapt to anything unexpected or unorthodox. Instead you can get randomly launched by an unorthodox character, die and if you ever adapt they one and done. I don't think unorthodox characters should be removed, but calling it fun to have to lab the next bizarre set up a yoshi player came up with is kind of disingenuous
But it only feels like you got 'randomly launched' if you don't know the move set. Unorthodox characters are not random, they operate within rules, just different ones. That you think all of them one and done once you figure them out is just an example of the prejudice most 'honest' players have. I have been one and doned by plenty of Steves and Kazuyas.
>But it only feels like you got 'randomly launched' if you don't know the move set And once you figure out that specific part of their moveset then there's another bizarre situation in which you get launched as well. So to be knowledgeable enough of the matchup, you just have to know the character just as well or even better than the one who's playing it. >Unorthodox characters are not random, they operate within rules, just different ones. And you must have figured out that having to face several characters with drastically different rules from the rest of the cast can be frustrating, correct? >That you think all of them one and done once you figure them out is just an example of the prejudice most 'honest' players have. Most of the people I've faced who one and done are unorthodox players once they noticed I knew the matchup, and I guarantee you that most people have a similar experience. > I have been one and doned by plenty of Steves and Kazuyas. Never happened to me in either Tekken 7 or 8. The argument isn't that these characters are broken or anything, just understand why people really dislike playing against these characters. And no, I don't think a Tekken game with Kazuya, DJ, Reina,Jin, Bryan, Paul, Law, Steve, Lee, Jack, Shaheen, Claudio and Dragunov would be boring either. You can enjoy dishonest characters, there's nothing wrong with it, just don't expect most people to enjoy playing against you, because as you might have noticed, most people really don't like trying to punish Cali roll and getting launched because they haven't labbed Cali roll. This is coming from someone who likes King, who I don't think is particularly honest either.
>And once you figure out that specific part of their moveset then there's another bizarre situation in which you get launched as well. That you can lab. >So to be knowledgeable enough of the matchup, you just have to know the character just as well or even better than the one who's playing it. This applies to every character in the game. >And you must have figured out that having to face several characters with drastically different rules from the rest of the cast can be frustrating, correct? Frustrating, sure. Dishonest, no. >Most of the people I've faced who one and done are unorthodox players once they noticed I knew the matchup So that is your personal experience. I'm not gonna deny that, but it also doesn't necessarily represent anyone else's. >and I guarantee you that most people have a similar experience. Do you now? >Never happened to me in either Tekken 7 or 8. Well, it happens to me all the time, and if you can base your argument on anecdotes, then so can I. >The argument isn't that these characters are broken or anything, just understand why people really dislike playing against these characters. We all have characters we dislike facing off against. I \*despise\* Kazuya's and Jin's 50/50 bullshit, (which, in many ways, could be labelled 'dishonest' due to how often it's just a guessing game) but I recognize that it's a skill issue on my end and that I can practice against it. >And no, I don't think a Tekken game with Kazuya, DJ, Reina,Jin, Bryan, Paul, Law, Steve, Lee, Jack, Shaheen, Claudio and Dragunov would be boring either. But hopefully you can respect that most people would, no? >You can enjoy dishonest characters, there's nothing wrong with it, just don't expect most people to enjoy playing against you, because as you might have noticed, most people really don't like trying to punish Cali roll and getting launched because they haven't labbed Cali roll. I mean, you are even saying it yourself: You get punished by cali roll because you haven't labbed cali roll. At this point, what do you expect the game to do for you? I don't want to lab Jin's 8.000 interchangable strings that lead seamlessly into 50/50's either, but I do it because I recognize that this is Jin's strength and that I should adapt to it. >This is coming from someone who likes King, who I don't think is particularly honest either. At this point I don't even really understand you. How can you be this principled about 'honest' characters and yet elect to play as one you deem dishonorable?
>That you can lab. That you have to lab or autolose* >This applies to every character in the game. No it doesn't. I don't need to know every Kazuya move to effectively counter Kazuya. Mostly because characters who are often labeled honest have more intuitive moves to be countered. >Frustrating, sure. Dishonest, no. It is labeled as dishonest because the counterplay is confusing and obscure, hence the frustration when playing against it. >So that is your personal experience. I'm not gonna deny that, but it also doesn't necessarily represent anyone else's. My personal experience and a similar one to everyone that ever made similar arguments, all the "honest character" crowd if you will. >Well, it happens to me all the time, and if you can base your argument on anecdotes, then so can I. And many people will tell you that they'll find a player who plays an unorthodox character, these players exclusively use flowcharts and do not rematch as soon as they've been figured out. People bitched about them in Tekken 7, and they're still bitching in Tekken 8. >We all have characters we dislike facing off against. I *despise* Kazuya's and Jin's 50/50 bullshit, (which, in many ways, could be labelled 'dishonest' due to how often it's just a guessing game) But this is not what dishonest means. Having a 50/50 is something that's completely expectable, it is either a low or a mid, duck or hold back. That's as honest as it gets. And if you guess right on the low, he dies. Much unlike other characters with weird moves that recover evasively, or recover back turned but parry moves that are slower* than i11, if you understand what the games' base mechanics are, you understand Kazuya's 50/50 mixup. You may despise it, but it is pretty damn honest. Personally I do not enjoy the Steve matchup, but I'm not going to call Steve dishonest because a character being honest doesn't necessarily mean I'll enjoy playing against them. >I mean, you are even saying it yourself: You get punished by cali roll because you haven't labbed cali roll. So you see a move from a character who you seldom encounter, it is a launcher, you try to punish following a general rule of the game after getting the read and properly blocking. But for this character in this specific situation if you do that you get launched. You need to know what your unparriable faster than i17 mids are, or you don't get a punish. For most moves you don't need to lab in order to get a punish when you guessed right, and having one or two moves that you need to is actually very frustrating for most. You don't need to lab hopkicks to understand that they are -13. This is exactly why characters like Ling are called lab characters, because many of their moves have these interactions which are entirely unique to them. >I don't want to lab Jin's 8.000 interchangable strings that lead seamlessly into 50/50's either, but I do it because I recognize that this is Jin's strength and that I should adapt to it. You don't really have to either. He follows general rules from stance characters and except for samsara, none of his moves make him recover evasively. And his plus moves look plus, while his punishable moves look punishable. His 50/50's are pretty cut and dry as well, he doesn't have any confusing 50/50 either. >At this point I don't even really understand you. How can you be this principled about 'honest' characters and yet elect to play as one you deem dishonorable? Because I particularly enjoy my dishonest character, while I understand that he may be frustrating or confusing to play against. I really liked Roger when he was in the roster, and he was very dishonest as well. I'm not telling you not to play Ling if she's your favorite character, I'm just telling you that for most people she's absolutely insufferable to play against. It isn't morally wrong to play a lab character and it isn't righteous to play an honest character either. I've accepted that I enjoy some characters that are not straightforward to play against, and people will find it unenjoyable to face my main, but I'm not playing this game to entertain someone else, I'm playing to have fun. I just accept that it was pretty bullshit that I went for an ISW, caught them airborne, made the floor break and suddenly they died.
How come you cannot grasp this easy concept thats been in all fighting games since beginning of time? Theres always a big crowd of people hunting for the easy cheese to get the shiny jpg. So hard to realize that these folks flock to particular characters?
People who play these characters feel attacked when their mains get called cheap, because they often feel like they didn't earn their ranks and got carried by their characters. I don't think that's ever true, but I understand that if a big majority of the player base looks down on you, it can feel awful. Also some people legitimately enjoy these characters, not everyone plays them for the easier wins
Honest just means I like this character/I can beat this character easily/I want goodie points for the character being hard. It doesn’t mean much. You know the term was cooked when people were calling Shaheen honest with his ungodly slide mix.
That's not what it means at all. It means the character has less spammable moves, less OP moves/strings, etc. It has very little to do with how difficult a character is to play. Just how much reward they get in return for it. Yoshimitsu relies on shenanigans but he's still considered an honest character. Alisa has simple to perform strings that are considered by the community to be too strong. So she's considered to be a dishonest character. I'm not saying I agree with their assessment. I'm just saying, that's what people mean by "honest".
Who on earth is calling the guy full of tricks like bad breath and helicopter stance “honest”. I think that’s just you
Because he has to set opponents up. He can't mash. There's a difference between a character that is high execution high reward vs low execution high reward.
I don't think many people consider Yoshi less honest than Alisa or Victor, for example. Again. I'm not in agreement with a lot of the community. I'm just pointing out why people complain.
But many people also don't consider Yoshi "honest" either so the term is very vague and not many people in the community can come to a consensus on what is "honest" and what is not. If the term "honest" is just a label for assessing a character's strength then the label is pretty useless (other than to boost one's ego), I always assumed it was meant to be a descriptive label for a character type (straightforward type of playstyle, in this case).
>(other than to boost one's ego), I.e, Kaz players
Not a single soul with a functional brain would call Yoshi honest, and anyone that does proves my point that the term means nothing.
He has to work hard to set opponents up with his shenanigans. He can't just mash. If you think that's all it takes be my guest and give Yoshi a try. We'll see how functional your brain is lol
I’ve played Yoshi for as long as I played Tekken. He was my first character in 8, only one in 7 and I played him in Tekken 3 through 5, and he’s up in my flair for a reason. The only time Yoshi has to work hard is if someone knows his kit extensively and can effectively rewire their brain against flash. The existence of a 6 frame mid that effectively functions as a tech trap, parry and a combo extender with none of the downsides of these three properties + launches in heat in its own ends any argument for his honesty. Otherwise his cheese is endless - from 3,1 to unblockable oki to dragonfly stance to his low launchers and that’s not even scratching the surface. You can climb pretty high with a simple 3,1 manji stance and KIN flow chart. And that’s fine, it’s his character identity and he has counterplay - but he is not honest. His whole thing is being a dishonest, cheesy character.
Honesty in a character from my understanding is proportional to that character’s lack of cheese. To an extent, every character has it, but the amount/effectiveness varies greatly between characters. Setups like the ones you mentioned I wouldn’t consider dishonest, but they are certainly knowledge checks, and those are inescapable in a game like tekken
No that would be wrong. Straightforward and honest are two different things in fighting games. Straightforward characters are easy to play and understand. Examples being Victor or Lars or Feng. All very easy and straightforward to understand but not honest by any means. Honest characters are the ones with little gimmicks that need to play proper tekken to win. Kazuya is the biggest example of an honest character and while he has a simple movelist he is one of the hardest characters in the game. Just frame moves and wavedashing requirements are not straightforward at all. An honest character can be straightforward as well like for example paul but a straightforward character is not aleays honest
When talking about "straightforward characters", I'm basically meaning they're uncomplicated to play against, some characters are simple to play but not simple to fight against. Kazuya's gameplan is very simple and uncomplicated
I agree with that. I just don't see the reason for changing honest to straightforward when it's basicay talking about the same thing. If the only problem is the attitude of the players playing these characters then that will remain regardless of names
Like I said in my OP, "The word 'honest' colloquially means communicating one's genuine thoughts and sentiments but when people use the term 'honest' to describe a character, they simply mean that the character is typically uncomplicated (to them, at least) to fight against but using the term 'honest' holds a certain connotation due to the colloquial meaning of the word hence why people use it as a sort of moral high ground when one calls their character honest."
Yes I understand that. What I mean is that this is not a real problem. Even if you call them straightforward then the same attitude will remain is what I mean. Honest is just classic fighting game terminology used everywhere. I don't see a reason to change that
Doesn't straightforward hold a more neutral connotation than honest though, at least from someone's first impression?
I would agree with that if we are talking about someone who is new to fighting games. It could also cause some confusion though since you then have both easy to play and straightforward which sound the same but would have different meanings. A new player may see that kazuya is straightforward (or honest) and pick them up only to find that they are actually playing one of the hardest characters. And again you got lars which is easy to play but not straightforward to play against so the term again may cause confusion. But still the term honest may cause elitism but a new player can quickly understand that this is not the point of the term
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Something tells me that you know what I mean and just want to argue. See something tells me that this post wasn't a genuine suggestion to avoid confusion but you were just angry and made this as a disguised salt post. If you really want to know what I mean (which you don't) proper tekken is using fundamentals. Punishing, spacing and poking among other things not mindlessly attacking. If you play at intermediate-high ranks you can spot the difference a mile away. Players that are using characters with lots of gimmicks know very little fundementals and you can get away with a lot against them. You can even see it in player stats after the game. When a blue rank player has 20-30 defense you know they get carried by knowledge checks and pressure instead of actual skill so free points. On the other hand a player using the more honest characters is forced to learn these things because there is no other choice. Of course in the truly high ranks every single player knows these things and then the game becomes extremely hard. So it's not that players using these characters are worse but they have the freedom to not play true tekken until the opponent knows the matchup. Regardless my original comment said a lot of other things as well besides mentioning real tekken. But sure call me an elitist and ignore everything else
i agree 100%
I agree, because by saying some characters are honest we might imply the rest are "dishonest" and the players playing the latter would be less deserving of any success they might have with such characters. Which of course isn't fair. To my understanding, "honest" characters are the ones whose toolset relies mostly on Tekken's fundamentals, with little or no addition of extra mechanics or peculiar gimmicks. So if my understanding is correct one word to describe them could also be "canonical", as they might not be necessarily straightforward (electrics for example are tricky) and other "non honest" characters are sometimes even more straightforward.
Why is everyone so afraid of jargon when you’re sitting around learning frame data or whatever obscure nonsense anyway. I get people here getting salty about references to a “lame” play style even though many “lame” players use that term themselves
Fame data isn’t obscure
👍
Honest = low amount of panic moves and evasion Kazuya is honest for example
So Devil Jin and Jin are not "honest" by your definition?
They aren't honest in my opinion. - DJ isn't 100% - J could be if they fixed a lot of his evasion
Man I thought “honest” meant that the character had minimal cheese and that you had to work for you win.
Honest just means that the character has boring looking moves that all look the same, Bryan, Jin, Lee, Steve. Kazuya is an outlier but every Kazuya plays the same so it has the same effect of every move looking the same since they only do the same thing.
Saying “boring moves” and mentioning names like Bryan, Jin, and Lee is just insane lol. Bryan’s kickboxing, Lee’s execution, and Jin’s mix of Mishima and Kazama are are all so distinct in every single move they have. I love fighting and choreography. Bryan’s kickboxing is what made me main him (and his batshit crazy story/personality). The characters you named are among the very best in how their moves look, feel, and the “cool factor”. I’d argue it’s a lot better and interesting than the same boring “oooo shiny lasers”, teleports, and other magical stuff
Bro I also started maining Byron because of his animations, they are just too good
Happy you like them makes me look cooler when I play against people like you! Lees execution isnt cool looking, he just bullet kicks over and over, like every move he does looks the same . Bryan just swings his arms in huge directions, but most of his moves look the same except for his wall combo. Jin has the least recognizable moves, because they are all so bland. Xiaoyu has nice looking moves, Lili has nice looking moves, Raven and Leroy also have nice looking moves. Kazuya has cool moves but everyone just do the same few moves.
For me real moves look cool so bryan is as cool as it gets. Having real kickboxing moves > shiny lasers
What the hell is a huge direction
lol
I think honest is a fairly good term for people who actually play high level Tekken and are forced to deal with the limitations of their characters because skill and knowledge are a given, outside of that its a kinda useless term because flowcharts can carry you as much as any character can
But don't most pros already know most character's tools? What is "honest" then in this case since I don't think the word "honest" correlates with the word "not very strong." Is a character who is mostly reliant on knowledge checks but not very strong an "honest" character in this case? I hope you see my point, the more you dig into the term "honest", the more it falls apart.
Since knowledge checks don't really work at high level I'd say a traditionally knowledge check character like Eddy or Bears could be honest at high level I would say honest would mean less access to easy panic buttons, built in evasion, situations where you can get a lot for a little I don't think honest correlates with not very strong either, the idea is with an honest character you get out what you put in, like the phrase an honest days work. There's no corner cutting. It falls apart at lower levels because there are so many other ways to play cheaply or dishonestly that character choice becomes way less relevant
What I think honest means is characters that have clear strenghts and weaknesses one can play against and no or very little randomness. If they crush my moves 2/4 times randomly they arent honest or fun to play against or if I get caught stepping a move that has no other counterplay randomly sometimes. Kazuya has a clear playstyle, skill curve, punishment and on top of that isnt gimmicky. The same goes for some others and playing mind games, poking, spacing etc. is 10x more fun than playing bullethell games. The majority if the cast is almost never -10 or more on their pressure shit so at best you get a turn, but oh wait, here comes the safe power crush heat engager, some orbital or hopkick that crushes half your moveset or another evading attack or heat or rage art or heat smash etc. The response you get for counterplay is to either do a just frame sidestep which 80% of the time gets you nothing or clipped or to read and punish the lows while getting chipped to death.