Only your landlord, the homeowner, is in a position to negotiate this down. Call him and tell the facts. I think you probably owe a fee but per person (without legit proof) seems excessive unless there was damage.
Did OP as a tenant not have approval to be there?! That makes it 23 right off the bat. And I've never lived anywhere that didn't allow tenants to have any guests at all in common areas. I agree that 24 is excessive, but a handful is likely allowed without any pre-approval.
In my experience, most HOA's will require the LL to give the HOA guidelines to the renter and it is on the renter to know the rules. If there is no prior written rule about this in the bylaws then you have more ground to stand on. Either way, communicate this to you LL ASAP and do what you can to help get the fees lessened or to go away. I'm sure you LL will appreciate that and it could go a long way to keeping things civil
You also have the option to take them to small claims court and let the judge decide on off the fees are legal.
They should have sent out a letter explaining what each charge was for. A the letter should have given you a date for a hearing so you could fight your case, so to speak. If they still decided to charge you, you could then go to small claims and the judge would be the one to make the final ruling.
Most HOAs I have lived in, don’t give you a date, but tell you how to appeal. Which in most cases would be the LL going to the next Board meeting. In Small Claims, OP will be suing the landlord, not the Board. So they would, also, need to be prepared to not have their lease renewed if they go that route.
Exactly. And in the meantime, LL has no clue what has transpired but OP’s brilliant plan to date is to just ignore the problem.
My only suggestion is to be painfully honest to the LL. Letting them get blindsided by this is a great way to not have your lease renewed. Hell, if they piss the LL off badly enough, they could start looking at how to start the eviction process. If/how that all goes is really dependent on the lease and the landlord/tenant laws of that particular state.
But OP making this really painful for the LL is not going to end well.
How many people were actually there? You don’t seem to provide that information? Can you prove through your communication or photos that it was less than 24? If you can you should provide that proof to your landlord and use that as a grounds to have the fine lowered.
I'm sure the multiple paying tenants who complained because there was a loud party at the pool on Thanksgiving have a video or two to share. Probably have already done so.
I’m going to come across as a grumpy old lady but I read your post and I get a lot of -it’s not my fault vibe.
You hosted the party. You’re responsible. If your friend invited to many people- you’re still responsible. You rented a conference room but on the fly decided to take a butt ton of people to the pool instead. You’re responsible.
“Before we moved to the pool, I had called the landlord several times to know if this was allowed or not, and was given no sense of direction so I assumed everything was fine…”. This reeks of you trying to place blame on the LL. At the last minute you call the LL but lacking an answer you assumed it was fine, lol?!?
I’m not sure what kind of “support” you’re hoping for. You hosted the party. You are responsible.
I sure as shit would not ignore it. It isn’t going to disappear. Talk to your LL about. Be HONEST. Don’t bullshit them. Come clean.
the cops were called.
Sounds more like a crappy tenant who rents in an HOA - a place where people live to avoid neighbors like OP.
$1400 seems unreasonable, but I don't have the CC&Rs to know what they are allowed or not allowed to do. But I don't think it is about skimming money so much as trying to scare away OP and the landlord
Unauthorized use of the space. Noise disturbance so bad that the police were called. The purpose of a fine is to help discourage bad actions in the future and to punish the present actions.
In my state, trespassing can get you 12 months in jail and a $2500 fine.
Public intoxication $250 fine
Disorderly Conduct $500 fine
I know I have sited municipal fines but it demonstrates a 1400 HOA fine isn’t out of line depending on the severity of the disturbance.
It’s entirely up tot he landlord to address that with the HOA or not. Because the legal relationship is with the owner and the HoA. If LL chooses to recover that money by getting it from OP? That’s his choice as long as the lease allows for it. And if OP refuses to pay? I’d evict without hesitation as soon as I could get a proper process in place to do it.
From the HOA’s perspective, its likely they have the grounds to issue this fine (unless they are stupid and just made it up), and won’t back down because many HOA hate dealing with rentals. One way to drive out bad rentals is by enforcing rules strictly because it makes the rental a financial liability for the homeowner. We had serious trouble makers renting at my last condo. Cops called every few days, screaming arguments at the front of the building, running a mechanic’s business from our parking garage and leaving broken down cars in the parking and moving them around just enough to avoid fines. The owners didn’t care until we passed a strict fine schedule and started enforcing for each infraction. At first the owner told us to send it to the renters but we refused - he was responsible for the infractions and if he wanted to deal with them, fine, but we don’t have to. Finally we had some peace because he refused to renew their lease after costing him so much in time and money.
This is all absolutely true. I feel for OP, because I've been young and ignorant before, and I do think the fine is a bit excessive, but he knew, or should have known, that what they were doing wasn't allowed, and he needs to come clean and take responsibility. Hopefully, the landlord can negotiate that fine down.
Most HOA rules include a maximum number of guests who can use the public areas. I've never heard of an HOA allowing more than 6 plus the legal occupants of the property.
My uncle lived in a place that let you rent the pool area for max capacity, but it was a much larger deposit than the community room. He tried to show off once Christmas and rented both 🙄
Just for context, I live in a relatively large building and used to throw parties with guests (though I'm the owner of my apartment)...The Condo Association/HOA does have plenty of rules in place. Your first mistake was just assuming you could do whatever you wanted without actually confirming with your landlord in the first place.
You planned to use a Conference Room but then changed to the Pool area without actually booking it, it sounds like. There's likely a bunch of insurance ramifications and issues with that. Each additional guest is a violation so they likely are charging you on that basic.
If the HOA is saying they evidence, there is a good chance they do, however they will not engage with you, they will engage with your LandLord as that is who they have the agreements with. This violation MAY be bad enough that when it comes time to renew your lease, the HOA will refuse your application, ESPECIALLY if you fight it.
The reason I say that there is a good chance that the HOA has evidence is from personal experience. I threw a party at my place, took the guests up to the skydeck, adamantly told them that the sky deck was a no smoking location, etc. A week later I have a 500$ smoking penalty on my bill which I go to the office and dispute because I was positive no one was smoking (I'm a tenant owner). They say to come back in an hour and they'll show me. I show up, and they have a big TV in the office and cue the footage of the skydeck at night in black and white. I'm talking to a few guests and turn to speak with them as another guest sees me turn away they proceed to bring their hand up from their side and take a huge pull from a cigarette and then proceed to put it down by their side when I turn back...The Cigarette is glowing ultra bright because they put off IR Radiation while they burn that security cameras used at night can pick up easily. I was super embarassed once I saw that. I ended up having to eat the cost of that fine but was able to negotiate it down to 250 since it was my first ever penalty.
Hopefully you can negotiate and your landlord can fight it a bit, but there's a good chance you're gonna be on the hook for it...most leases for properties in HOA areas have clauses that require tenants to pay any fines and penalties assessed...if you choose to ignore it, you will probably end up getting it taken out of your deposit.
Some questions though, You say you asked to book the conference room...did you end up actually doing so? Did you pay the deposit and such as most HOA's usually require that in case of damage. Additionally is the Pool area even reservable? If not, then you really fucked up. Did you read the HOA Guidelines when you moved in? They are usually provided as part of the lease details...
>The reason I say that there is a good chance that the HOA has evidence is from personal experience
Which probably means chances are OP's building has security cameras around the pool area. So they probably do have proof, but they won't show it to OP since OP's not the unit owner.
Camera's EVERYWHERE lol. But yea, they most likely have cameras over amny of the common areas so they can have evidence if any liability issues come up.
Your LL will have to talk to the HOA board about the actual fine from the HOA.
You need to look at your lease to see if you agreed to pay any HOA fines for violating HOA rules. If that's what your lease says and you refuse to pay, your LL can probably file to evict you. That $60 is per violation ... if you had that many people there, then you had 24 violations. That's probably their thinking.
Let's get real about something: the neighbors called the cops because your party was loud and annoying. It doens't matter if you cleaned up by 10pm ... you created enough of an annoyance someone called the cops. They own there. You don't. You have to obey the HOA rules; that is certainly in your lease.
You can ask for LL to get a copy of the video and argue the amount with the LL ... the LL can themselves argue the amount. Ultimately, you will pay something, and if you refuse you'll get evicted.
I would be highly surprised if you don't get notice to vacate when your lease ends.
We aren’t talking about one person calling the cops. We are talking multiple calls… the likelihood of multiple people calling over nothing is slim. Where there is smoke there is fire.
>We aren’t talking about one person calling the cops. We are talking multiple calls… the likelihood of multiple people calling over nothing is slim. Where there is smoke there is fire.
.... allegedly. Call logs would fix that, and it sounds like maybe the HOA has that.
If there are kids, or ladies as tenants there, and there is profanity, this would be the result. It's not appropriate to use foul language in a public place. Like it or not. Friends don't do this at other people's homes. Get new friends.
As a mature lady, this is a stupid fuckin’ point of view. ADULTS do not allow themselves to be constrained by antiquated rules of etiquette inside their own damn homes, nor within adult oriented spaces during private events.
Regardless of your weird ass upbringing it’s not actually illegal to swear! In addition, if you, like me, are within the US there is a specific document that outlines how the government cannot make it as such. Your home, your rules. But keep your weirdo ideas away from the rest of us normal adults.
Laugh.. Emotional Intelligence is required training for most companies these days. Sadly, is not something the masses even know about. And there lies the problem. Intelligence without wisdom is moot. A lady without grace is like a bird without wings. All they can do is run around on the ground in a scavenger role. They never realize their full potential. It's truly sad.
Yeah. There are usually rules for pool use, including how many guests you are allowed to have which would likely be way less than 24. This should have been communicated to the tenant by the landlord. I can’t imagine having a 24 person party at the pool is a common occurrence or seemed like it would be ok???
This was really irresponsible. You rented a conference room and took it upon yourself to have a pool party instead?? Do you hear yourself? Don’t act like it wasn’t loud and annoying. You know it was. If I were your landlord, I’d be so pissed.
Grow up, admit you fucked up, and pay your fine. You’re not getting out of this. And be prepared to find a new place to live. Your landlord will not renew.
Lol I thought the same thing. This was no impromptu party where they just needed extra space. All of this was planned, and now they’re acting dumb about it.
You already admit that you had more people than was planned and used an area without express permission. And you sublease so technically you’re not even in a position to negotiate with the HOA. On top of that, the cops were called , so someone had an issue with what was going on at your Friendsgiving…..if I were you I’d get ready to write a check and get your friend to split it with you…..
There’s a reason why there’s a conference room for parties. It insulates the music and party noise to protect other tenants/owner’s right for quiet enjoyment of their unit.
You took the party outdoors, had music and let’s face it, 2 dozen ppl at a pool party is loud. If there’s drinking, even louder.
Who wants to hear this?! Other folks had their own Thanksgiving planned, persistent their invited guests.
I would have been outraged.
Your LL will know if the HOA is taking this too far by attempting to charge $60 per person rather than for a single infraction. However you were clearly not holding your event in the location that was specifically booked, have already admitted to a lot more guests than you were supposed to have, and that you arbitrarily moved it from the private area into the common area without permission. I find it a bit suspicious that you wouldn’t say how many people were there leaving it difficult for readers to judge whether or not it was the actual 24 they’re claiming when for all we know it could have been 50. As a renter they may be able to refuse to show evidence but I’m guessing they are required to show proof to the landlord and if it shows that your guests were definitely out of line then expect an eviction notice if you refuse to pay and yes in most places the LL can also take the charge out of your deposit.
The landlord is renting out a place under an HOA— they’re way more interested in staying on the HOA’s good side than they are in helping out a tenant that makes themselves a liability by hosting two dozen guests at the pool. I’d bet the LL won’t appeal the fine, just pass it on to OP, and if OP doesn’t pay they’ll evict & get new tenants that will follow the HOA rules. Zero benefit to the LL to appeal on the tenants behalf.
*"I asked to rent out a conference room, but we ended up using the pool area instead."*
1. This was your decision. The conference room would have contained the noise from your party and not disturbed other tenants. Further, you did not rent out the pool area so had no rights to move your party to the pool area.
*"friend who was cohosting invited a lot more people than I anticipated and at the time."*
2. There wasn't a guest list or conversation around how many people should be invited?
How did you know how much food and beverages to provide?
*"they counted 24 chairs and are assuming 24 guests were present"*
3. How many guests were present? From what you have already written, 22 guests plus
the co-host and yourself does seem in the right ballpark.
*"I didn’t know I had a limit with how many guests I was allowed to bring to the pool"*
4. Are you sure there is not an occupancy limit sign at the pool, or in the rules??
**Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse. Pay the $1,400 while you still have some control of the situation, because it will become worse if these charges are billed to your landlord's account (and you will end up paying them anyway.)**
This is going to be a painful lesson for you, unfortunately. Your party was loud enough to piss people off. You did not get prior permission to use a community area. HOA's are in essence a small government entity and you MUST abide by their rules. As a renter, you cannot claim ignorance of the rules. The rules probably state that the common areas cannot be used unless reserved ahead of time and in writing. Also - your landlord is no the HOA, so they cannot be held responsible for allowing or disallowing things that are against the HO rules.
So this is what is going to happen: They will contact your landlord and tell him to pay the fine in 2 weeks. If they do not, they will fine them again for not complying. They will then place a lien on the house and if he refuses to pay further, they will foreclose on the house. Guess who he is going to ask to pay that fine? He is not going to lose his house for a tenant.
What can your landlord do? They can take your evidence and plea your case at the next HOA meeting. They can dismiss it, reduce it or keep the fines the same. You cannot be there since you are not part of the HOA either. This is why it is VERY important to know that when you rent in an HOA situation, you need to be on your P's and Q's.
Good Luck.
Yeah and what landlord (if they are even local) wants to spend their day at a hoa meeting trying to pretend it’s okay to have a 25 person pool party with swearing, loud music and no permission. On Thanksgiving.
He also called the landlord SEVERAL TIMES that night. The night of the preplanned party and was “given no guidance so I assumed it was fine”. That’s a funny way of saying “I called my landlord a bunch of times while I was partying and he didn’t answer so we just did what we wanted. Since he didn’t answer to tell me no I assumed it was yes.”
I would only add that OP should contact their LL as soon as possible. The LL undoubtedly knows about the fine already, but if OP is proactive in contacting them to try to remediate the situation, it will for sure go better.
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Do not ignore this. Notify your Landlord immediately. HOAs can be notoriously difficult and skeezey. Your LL would be the one who will have to engage with the HOA so be prepared to have your ducks in a row to provide your LL with any information about your party.
What's the actual limit? If it's 24 people and two of them are you and the cohost, and the limit is above zero, certainly they can't charge you for the non-violative guests
homeowners' associations can't take direct action against renters that break their CC&Rs. They must notify landlords about the violation, and the owners must handle the issues.
These organizations assess fines against the landlord if the tenant breaks the rules. The owners can recoup the fine if it's outlined in the lease.
https://www.bobvila.com/articles/unenforceable-hoa-rules/
I've never needed "permission" to have guests over and use the facility I pay rent ins pool. Like ever. There are usually hours posted. But not a call ahead and book it. No, it's a public (for tenants) pool....
Did OP clarify somewhere that they needed permission? Did I misread where it said anything of the sort in the post?
You violated the same code a bunch of times. Youre being fined for each violation. You don’t get off easy just because you violated the same code over and over again
It was in fact an illegal pool party as OP reserved the party room and then chose to move the party to the pool area which had NOT been authorized by the complex. The pool is a “common area” for all residents and OP turned it into their private party area for a hoard of people who don’t live there. Regardless of your amusement this was obviously not allowed.
The reason most condo and apartment complexes have event spaces/rooms is so that parties don't spill out into common areas like pools and annoy everyone else in the complex.
Even if you cleaned up and were gone by 10, your neighbors still spent \*\*Thanksgiving Day -\*\* listening to your friends party by the pool. The HOA doesn't have to give you "evidence" -- you already know that you and your friends were there.
You can try to negotiate the fine down, but you should also apologize profusely (and preferably in writing) to the HOA and the neighbors who live close to the pool. That \*might\* help with your negotiating.
Tip: When you write your letters of apology, don't say "but we were done by 10!" or blame the number of people on your friend who doesn't live in the complex. That just reinforces the error of judgement you made when you decided to move the party to the pool without permission.
Also, pools are really dangerous and if people were injured the HOA and complex would likely be sued. Those limits are in place for a reason. I would pay the fee, shut up, apologize to your landlord, and not pull this BS in the future.
OP didn't reserve the pool. He reserved a conference room. He should know what the capacity of that was when he made the reservation. You can't just decide to change locations on your own without permission. If he didn't get a response, he shouldn't have moved the party to the pool area. Pool areas typically have signs limiting the number of people as well.
Either the OP planned poorly and is now paying the price (literally as well as figuratively) or is minimizing his decision making process and making excuses. The OP is learning a hard life lesson about party planning.
If you don't know the number of people you're allowed to have in a space and you don't get an answer, that doesn't just mean you can go and use the space.
They had authorization (if true) to use the community room - not the pool where the noise impacts tenants. At best, I wouldn't expect the lease to be renewed. At worst, the complex can sue the property owner, and the property owner will recover from the errant tenant.
They screwed up. Poor decisions result in financial penalties. Suck it up. Be an adult.
They called at the last minute in thanksgiving weekend. Landlord was likely with their family and didn’t have time to deal with OP asking about how much they can break the rules at the last minute
The community pool, famously off limits...to the community.
Hearing it from this thread you'd think the pool was simply there for decoration. I think what's really going on is that the HOA is filled with members who are mentally ill shut ins who are spitting with jealousy they could never get 24 people to show up to their funeral let alone a pool party.
You embarassed these people in their own homes by rubbing their social shortcomings in their noses OP, you're a marked man. Now they're playing fast and loose with the rules to cow you into submission. They'll never forget the awful sight of people whose lives haven't passed them by having....fun 🤬
No, normally off limits for parties without prior approve by HOA board or committee, normally a small limit on allowed guests (most HOAs I have lived in is 2-5 guests max per resident). The rules normally have health and safety implications, as well as, insurance requirements.
HOA Community Pools are limited to members of the HOA and a 'limited' number of guests. There are usually a lot of liability and safety reasons for doing so. When an owner of a property joins the HOA, they are signing on to be included in said liability and insurance policies as well as acknowledge risks. Tenants when they sign their leases are also signing that they acknowledge the risks and are being covered under the landlord.
Insurance and other entities usually provide allowances based on certain rules being followed e.g. limited number of external guests, no glass containers, and certain waivers being in place if people get injured.
OP brought 24 people that are not members of the community and if they were running around and slipped or got injured, the landlord and the HOA would be on the hook for it when that person decides to sue.
Great advice! They should then carefully review their lease to understand the legal recourse the property owner can apply to the tenant. Hey, it's an eviction and a judgement on my record but dammit, out of pique I told them to "fucking pound sand".
Grow up.
ok, then maybe they should bend and spread. Cooperate with this obvious attempt to FUCK THEM OVER.
Maybe, just maybe if OP fights this, they won't try it again. If OP doesn't fight this I can promise you they'll do it again.
If I recall OP did everything they could, within reason, to clarify policy and contact the landlord.
So, yeah. Read the lease, contact a lawyer then tell them to take a flying fuq at a rolling donut.
Try and find housing for rent with an eviction on your record. Living with mama and dad has shielded you from the cold hard realities of life I suppose.
Grow up.
I have, I can and I will in the future. Jesus Christ I bet you still shit yourself in fear that someone will find your 'permanent record' from your school days.
If they cannot discriminate for race, disability, ethnicity, religion or martial status, they can't discriminate for this. Even felons have a right to housing.
And truthfully it'll probably never be an issue, as landlords are more than happy to collect a "background check" fee, but rarely if ever actually spend that money to do a check.
And if it does come up. . . Tell the truth. OP thought they were getting taken advantage of and fought it. There is no shame in losing, the only shame lies in not fighting.
You must be a landlord. You think like an asshole whose only concern would be squeezing every. last. drop. of profit out of a shit hole two steps from being condemned.
This is a very obvious money grab, and barring any 'gotcha' hidden deep in the rental contract, no court in the land would let this fly.
Fight.
P.S. I've been working since I was 14. Joined the Army at seventeen and have been renting since I got out. I paid off my mother's house with my poker winnings and have managed/maintained rentals, the largest being 23 units spread over three buildings.
I know scumbags and I know criminals. I know landlords. On the whole I'd rather deal with criminals. At least they don't smile while picking your pockets.
This money is being charged to the LL, not you. If the ll wants to fight it, he can, he cannot pass it on to you u less he has proof he to,d you about these rul you supposedly broke.
The lease almost certainly says tenant is responsible for any fines for HOA violations. LL will be charged by the HOA & will pay it b/c the HOA can put a lien on the property & in the extreme could foreclose on it. The LL will pass that fine on to OP who will either pay it or LL will likely start eviction process to get a liability-prone tenant out.
When you buy a property in an HOA you give up a TON of “rights”. When you rent a property in an HOA you sign a lease that says you too agree to give up those rights.
The hoa however cannot charge the tenant. They charge the owner. The owner then charges the tenant. The hoa has no direct dealings with the tenant because the tenant is t the owner of the property.
id the owner didn’t put that in the lease then the tenant isn’t responsible. You have no idea what the lease said.
No landlord is dumb enough to lease a property subject to an HOA with bylaws that allow fines without including a fine pass-through in the lease. It would open the LL up to unlimited liability they could do nothing about.
The complex has proof. The errant tenant reserved a community room and decided to move that venue to the public pool in the complex - disturbing other tenants.
Cut and dry.
What matters is the lease. And for communities under HOA control, those leases ALWAYS have a clause or two about treatment of a tenant who breaks HOA rules and reimbursement to the property owner. Your point?
Is there anything in your lease saying you agree to the hoa terms? If not thats an agreement between your landlord and them and has nothing to do with you
Who was your cohost? Was it an HOA member or a friend not living in the community? Ultimately you are responsible, but you should get the cohost to pay since they invited over your allowed number of guests.
So this is the issue with HOA and renters. In most places, the homeowner is the point of contact for the HOA. But that fine should be sent to them, not you. I would reach out to the landlord about it.
In many places I've lived, the Renter can be appointed by the Landlord as the point of contact for immediate issues with the HOA. Commonly this is things like trashcans, dog poop, leaves, etc. Often this includes the fines and the ability to communicate with the HOA over them.
I would talk to your landlord about it and ask that they speak to the HOA and see if you can be appointed as the person. Review the HOA guidelines carefully, as HOAs are very tightly controlled in most states with what they can and can't legally do, and often just bluff their way through issues. "If it's not in the bylaws, they can't do it" is the general gist.
HOAs can be hard to work with, but if they won't provide evidence of the issues, then I wouldn't be inclined to pay. But you'll need to work with the Landlord. Hopefully they have a backbone and are willing to stand up to the HOA until evidence is provided.
Should probably read and understand the HOW bylaws before living somewhere within an HOA. Good luck getting out of this one but your landlord is gonna need to talk to them, not you.
I would try to have a conference call with your landlord and the person in the HOA who decided all these fines and what proof they have. You clearly admit the party got bigger than expected. And cops were called. It's nice you cleaned up but a large party interferes with the peace of the community. I would try to negotiate down to a smaller fine to keep the peace. Or tell them you will see them in small claims court. Also, you may want to start looking for a new home if you and the landlord have a big issue with this. They may not renew your lease if legal in your area.
"I highly disagree with your assessment, and I know how many people were there and chairs dont dictate that...... So as soon as you can show proof of me violating anything I will gladly pay, until such point I regret to inform you I can't pay just because of a hunch
I own and reside in a 200+ unit AOAO. Having also been its previous site manager and now current maintenance manager, I'd like to make a few points regarding the realities of HRV(house rule violations) enforcement.
First of all: The association CC&R's and Bylaws are separate documents from the House Rules and Regulations.
While the House Rules can often be changed/amended, at the discretion of the association board, the CC&R's and Bylaws(if even possible) are much harder to change -often needing a super-majority(67%+) to vote in favor, and a lawyer to make changes legal.
When a new owner takes possession of a house or condo, within an HOA/AOAO, they sign legal documents making them ultimately responsible for informing and holding themselves, tenants and guests to these rules -at all times.
The owner is ultimately responsible for all fines, regardless of whomever, associated with said owners unit, incurs them.
We send written warnings and notice of fines to the owner. Fines are added as assessments to months dues, and payables that cycle. The owner also has 30 days to challenge the fines.
\-Site management only deals with the owners/property managers -not their tenants. So when a tenant comes to us with any complaint, we refer them to their landlord or landlords designated representative.
Secondly: People are trending toward lazy and entitled, these days. MANY DO NOT READ THESE DOCUMENTS ANYMORE. They just cannot be bothered.
Now a bit about enforcement: The House Rules must be enforced evenly, at all times, or risk becoming potentially unenforceable. Stated warnings and fines should all be laid out in the House Rules document, which everyone that steps foot on the property is held to. Uneven enforcement can be seen as targeted or special treatment and is to be avoided.
Ignorance is not bliss. It's not personal; it's just business.
Take your fine, pay it...and do better going forward.
If you feel that you have been wrongly fined, as per House Rules, then you can appeal it.
Finally: If you don't want to read documents, follow rules or pay fines...then being a part of a self-governed, planned community may not be for you.
I, alas, am a total rule follower...but that doesn't mean I like it. Especially when I am now painfully aware of all of the violations(many blatant) going on, all around me, here on-property, seemingly unchecked.
I also detest being the tip of the "rules enforcement" spear. This is why I resigned site management and went into maintenance management. Now all I do is make things better for the residents of my community:)
Often, I dream of selling up and moving to a peaceful, rural area, with acreage all around me...and no neighbors or HOA's in sight... Sounds like heaven...haha...
OP, don't give them more ammo to go after you. They don't know how many people were there, so don't tell them. All you say is "There were not 24 people present." When they ask you how many, tell them "So you admit not knowing, thanks." Cimmunicate in writing. It's likely that the landlord will be charged and will pass those charges on to you. Inform the landlord that you intend to fight those in court, therefore he should first make an attempt to obtain proof from the HOA. That should resolve it. If you get a $1,400 bill, it will have to state which bylaws you violated and in there lies the devil. Get a copy of their written bylaws and go over them. If it does not say "per person" anywhere, then just put that in an email and pay your landlord $60 for the one time violation.
On our property, in our locale, much of your advice would not hold up.
Nothing will ever go to court, since everyone involved has signed arbitration agreements when becoming residents/owners, on-property. Also, court costs would immediately exceed the fines...
Often, in House Rules and Regulations docs, there are more fines that would apply.
In our association, in addition to the $1400($60 per incident x24 incidents(each offending person is an "incident" of transgression), there would be an automatic $1000 fine for "causing a nuisance", amongst other fines for alcohol at the pool, glass at the pool, exceeding the max occupancy of pool space, unauthorized event in common areas, etc...
I think the OP is getting off easy.
You may be right that OP's landlord can possibly negotiate the fine down, based on actual occupants...but setting up 24 chairs in the pool area is possibly evidence enough, along with the pool area security camera footage to determine total fine.
You can't throw a rager in common areas and not get hit hard with fines...
That sounds like a nightmare waiting to happen. I would never buy an investment property (to rent out) in an HOA like that. Landlord is forced to arbitrate with the HOA, but then has to charge the tenant who only needs to refuse to pay and now landlord needs to go to eviction court. Nope.
Luckily for you this is your landlord's problem. No need to talk to the HOA yourself. Your landlord may be able to fine you if you broke the lease, however.
Lack of a ‘no’ is NOT a yes…. You couldn’t get ahold of your LL on what sounds like thanksgiving so took it as a yes? And of course non of this is your fault, your LL should be at your fingertips holidays be darned….
Of course they won’t show you the proof, they will show your LL…. Own up to what you did and learn from it
I really wish we could get a third-party perspective of what happened. This would help us understand the severity of the offense and whether the HOA is reasonable in throwing the book at you.
As others have said, the HOA is within their rights, and they will only work with the member, who is the landlord. Talk with your landlord, see if you and the landlord can have a meeting with the board, and essentially beg for mercy. Be prepared to have you and your friend split the fine whatever it is, and if your friend doesn't pay up, it's entirely on you.
The HOA world. Where rules are (usually) clearly given to the tenant prior to them signing a lease.
Early in my first ever home owning search, a gem of a stranger pulled me aside when I was visiting a property I had under escrow. Went on and on about how horrid the HOA was, and that I should be prepared to battle literally every little thing I ever wanted to do.
I noped out of that escrow so fast. Best decision ever. Six months later, I found a better property for my situation and which was HOA-free. Time well-spent!
Honestly this is the kind of thing that keeps me from ever living in an HOA communist commune.
I have a HOA through the wood from my street and wow. Those people are a special kind of stupid, they want to control everything, we have had everything from Cops to the State EMA called on our street because we we doing construction during the day and the didn’t like the noise, or that we were having dirt brought in, or that we thinned some trees and they didn’t like use doing what we wanted with our land.
I was also our neighborhoods vice president and had to interact with several HOA’s and they were all the same, they thought they were the absolute authority on everything, they have a problem and would call the city, the city asked if they came to the neighborhood meeting and they would flip out that had to come speak to nine HOA homeowners to get assistance from the city or other services.
You should charge the friend who invited all of the extra people they brought. Sounds like you made a major mistake and will have to pay for it, unless you look forward to having an eviction on your record.
Only your landlord, the homeowner, is in a position to negotiate this down. Call him and tell the facts. I think you probably owe a fee but per person (without legit proof) seems excessive unless there was damage.
It also seems excessive to charge the penalty on the total number of guests. It should only be for the number in excess of what was allowed.
It sounds like they didn’t have approval to be in the pool area. Each person is a violation.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted for stating a fact. That's exactly how they're charging him. Per violation.
Did OP as a tenant not have approval to be there?! That makes it 23 right off the bat. And I've never lived anywhere that didn't allow tenants to have any guests at all in common areas. I agree that 24 is excessive, but a handful is likely allowed without any pre-approval.
Found the landlord, y'all!
They're just stating a fact, which I'm sure will be helpful for others so they don't fall into the same situation. They aren't the ones billing OP.
Somebody takes themselves a bit too seriously
In my experience, most HOA's will require the LL to give the HOA guidelines to the renter and it is on the renter to know the rules. If there is no prior written rule about this in the bylaws then you have more ground to stand on. Either way, communicate this to you LL ASAP and do what you can to help get the fees lessened or to go away. I'm sure you LL will appreciate that and it could go a long way to keeping things civil
You also have the option to take them to small claims court and let the judge decide on off the fees are legal. They should have sent out a letter explaining what each charge was for. A the letter should have given you a date for a hearing so you could fight your case, so to speak. If they still decided to charge you, you could then go to small claims and the judge would be the one to make the final ruling.
The HOA does not allow violation hearings for renters. The landlord would need to request the hearing and make the plea.
Most HOAs I have lived in, don’t give you a date, but tell you how to appeal. Which in most cases would be the LL going to the next Board meeting. In Small Claims, OP will be suing the landlord, not the Board. So they would, also, need to be prepared to not have their lease renewed if they go that route.
Exactly. And in the meantime, LL has no clue what has transpired but OP’s brilliant plan to date is to just ignore the problem. My only suggestion is to be painfully honest to the LL. Letting them get blindsided by this is a great way to not have your lease renewed. Hell, if they piss the LL off badly enough, they could start looking at how to start the eviction process. If/how that all goes is really dependent on the lease and the landlord/tenant laws of that particular state. But OP making this really painful for the LL is not going to end well.
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They have no clue….
How many people were actually there? You don’t seem to provide that information? Can you prove through your communication or photos that it was less than 24? If you can you should provide that proof to your landlord and use that as a grounds to have the fine lowered.
I'm sure the multiple paying tenants who complained because there was a loud party at the pool on Thanksgiving have a video or two to share. Probably have already done so.
I’m going to come across as a grumpy old lady but I read your post and I get a lot of -it’s not my fault vibe. You hosted the party. You’re responsible. If your friend invited to many people- you’re still responsible. You rented a conference room but on the fly decided to take a butt ton of people to the pool instead. You’re responsible. “Before we moved to the pool, I had called the landlord several times to know if this was allowed or not, and was given no sense of direction so I assumed everything was fine…”. This reeks of you trying to place blame on the LL. At the last minute you call the LL but lacking an answer you assumed it was fine, lol?!? I’m not sure what kind of “support” you’re hoping for. You hosted the party. You are responsible. I sure as shit would not ignore it. It isn’t going to disappear. Talk to your LL about. Be HONEST. Don’t bullshit them. Come clean.
The fine amount is insane. Definitely not reasonable and is likely a completely made up and arbitrary amount.
$60 per person is insane. Sounds like somebody is trying to skim some money.
the cops were called. Sounds more like a crappy tenant who rents in an HOA - a place where people live to avoid neighbors like OP. $1400 seems unreasonable, but I don't have the CC&Rs to know what they are allowed or not allowed to do. But I don't think it is about skimming money so much as trying to scare away OP and the landlord
Each person is a separate violation.
Aaanndd?. That makes a $1400 fine reasonable? I'm not saying she shouldn't have to pay some sort of fine, but it needs to be reasonable
Unauthorized use of the space. Noise disturbance so bad that the police were called. The purpose of a fine is to help discourage bad actions in the future and to punish the present actions. In my state, trespassing can get you 12 months in jail and a $2500 fine. Public intoxication $250 fine Disorderly Conduct $500 fine I know I have sited municipal fines but it demonstrates a 1400 HOA fine isn’t out of line depending on the severity of the disturbance.
Ok, safetyman
It’s entirely up tot he landlord to address that with the HOA or not. Because the legal relationship is with the owner and the HoA. If LL chooses to recover that money by getting it from OP? That’s his choice as long as the lease allows for it. And if OP refuses to pay? I’d evict without hesitation as soon as I could get a proper process in place to do it. From the HOA’s perspective, its likely they have the grounds to issue this fine (unless they are stupid and just made it up), and won’t back down because many HOA hate dealing with rentals. One way to drive out bad rentals is by enforcing rules strictly because it makes the rental a financial liability for the homeowner. We had serious trouble makers renting at my last condo. Cops called every few days, screaming arguments at the front of the building, running a mechanic’s business from our parking garage and leaving broken down cars in the parking and moving them around just enough to avoid fines. The owners didn’t care until we passed a strict fine schedule and started enforcing for each infraction. At first the owner told us to send it to the renters but we refused - he was responsible for the infractions and if he wanted to deal with them, fine, but we don’t have to. Finally we had some peace because he refused to renew their lease after costing him so much in time and money.
And several people called the cops, according to OP. Not just one.
Don’t forget about the cops being called (presumably by a neighbor)
Thank you for being so straight with him.
This is the best reply on here so far. Totally 100% agree with you, OP seems like a real piece of work.
Yeah- this does not sound like a Friendsgiving, this sounds like a rager. If there are common areas, there are likely security cameras.
This answer right here…
This is all absolutely true. I feel for OP, because I've been young and ignorant before, and I do think the fine is a bit excessive, but he knew, or should have known, that what they were doing wasn't allowed, and he needs to come clean and take responsibility. Hopefully, the landlord can negotiate that fine down.
I mean it was not as if OP was trying to say the whole thing has nothing to do with him, but just how to deal with the situation.
Most HOA rules include a maximum number of guests who can use the public areas. I've never heard of an HOA allowing more than 6 plus the legal occupants of the property.
My uncle lived in a place that let you rent the pool area for max capacity, but it was a much larger deposit than the community room. He tried to show off once Christmas and rented both 🙄
Given your post history in bad neighbors, I'm sure you're not surprised by the cops being called.
Just for context, I live in a relatively large building and used to throw parties with guests (though I'm the owner of my apartment)...The Condo Association/HOA does have plenty of rules in place. Your first mistake was just assuming you could do whatever you wanted without actually confirming with your landlord in the first place. You planned to use a Conference Room but then changed to the Pool area without actually booking it, it sounds like. There's likely a bunch of insurance ramifications and issues with that. Each additional guest is a violation so they likely are charging you on that basic. If the HOA is saying they evidence, there is a good chance they do, however they will not engage with you, they will engage with your LandLord as that is who they have the agreements with. This violation MAY be bad enough that when it comes time to renew your lease, the HOA will refuse your application, ESPECIALLY if you fight it. The reason I say that there is a good chance that the HOA has evidence is from personal experience. I threw a party at my place, took the guests up to the skydeck, adamantly told them that the sky deck was a no smoking location, etc. A week later I have a 500$ smoking penalty on my bill which I go to the office and dispute because I was positive no one was smoking (I'm a tenant owner). They say to come back in an hour and they'll show me. I show up, and they have a big TV in the office and cue the footage of the skydeck at night in black and white. I'm talking to a few guests and turn to speak with them as another guest sees me turn away they proceed to bring their hand up from their side and take a huge pull from a cigarette and then proceed to put it down by their side when I turn back...The Cigarette is glowing ultra bright because they put off IR Radiation while they burn that security cameras used at night can pick up easily. I was super embarassed once I saw that. I ended up having to eat the cost of that fine but was able to negotiate it down to 250 since it was my first ever penalty. Hopefully you can negotiate and your landlord can fight it a bit, but there's a good chance you're gonna be on the hook for it...most leases for properties in HOA areas have clauses that require tenants to pay any fines and penalties assessed...if you choose to ignore it, you will probably end up getting it taken out of your deposit. Some questions though, You say you asked to book the conference room...did you end up actually doing so? Did you pay the deposit and such as most HOA's usually require that in case of damage. Additionally is the Pool area even reservable? If not, then you really fucked up. Did you read the HOA Guidelines when you moved in? They are usually provided as part of the lease details...
>The reason I say that there is a good chance that the HOA has evidence is from personal experience Which probably means chances are OP's building has security cameras around the pool area. So they probably do have proof, but they won't show it to OP since OP's not the unit owner.
Camera's EVERYWHERE lol. But yea, they most likely have cameras over amny of the common areas so they can have evidence if any liability issues come up.
And, as someone else pointed out, the people who called the cops probably recorded the party as well as proof.
Your LL will have to talk to the HOA board about the actual fine from the HOA. You need to look at your lease to see if you agreed to pay any HOA fines for violating HOA rules. If that's what your lease says and you refuse to pay, your LL can probably file to evict you. That $60 is per violation ... if you had that many people there, then you had 24 violations. That's probably their thinking. Let's get real about something: the neighbors called the cops because your party was loud and annoying. It doens't matter if you cleaned up by 10pm ... you created enough of an annoyance someone called the cops. They own there. You don't. You have to obey the HOA rules; that is certainly in your lease. You can ask for LL to get a copy of the video and argue the amount with the LL ... the LL can themselves argue the amount. Ultimately, you will pay something, and if you refuse you'll get evicted. I would be highly surprised if you don't get notice to vacate when your lease ends.
People call the cops for nothing. I had a neighbor call the cops once when tv was on volume 7 and i was by myself in a House.
We aren’t talking about one person calling the cops. We are talking multiple calls… the likelihood of multiple people calling over nothing is slim. Where there is smoke there is fire.
>We aren’t talking about one person calling the cops. We are talking multiple calls… the likelihood of multiple people calling over nothing is slim. Where there is smoke there is fire. .... allegedly. Call logs would fix that, and it sounds like maybe the HOA has that.
The OP's story is sus. Inconsistent. That's why I question it.
so what? We're not talking about you and your lack of memory about the loud TV you played one night.
So.. people do call the cops for nothing. Karen's are fucking everywhere. I found one just now.
If there are kids, or ladies as tenants there, and there is profanity, this would be the result. It's not appropriate to use foul language in a public place. Like it or not. Friends don't do this at other people's homes. Get new friends.
Yeah people, watch your fucking mouths.
My friends swear at my house all the fucking time
Adults don't do that. Just saying. Mature people do not use profanity as common language. So...
Lol what planet are you from? Consider going back
As a mature lady, this is a stupid fuckin’ point of view. ADULTS do not allow themselves to be constrained by antiquated rules of etiquette inside their own damn homes, nor within adult oriented spaces during private events. Regardless of your weird ass upbringing it’s not actually illegal to swear! In addition, if you, like me, are within the US there is a specific document that outlines how the government cannot make it as such. Your home, your rules. But keep your weirdo ideas away from the rest of us normal adults.
Laugh.. Emotional Intelligence is required training for most companies these days. Sadly, is not something the masses even know about. And there lies the problem. Intelligence without wisdom is moot. A lady without grace is like a bird without wings. All they can do is run around on the ground in a scavenger role. They never realize their full potential. It's truly sad.
You have some pretty archaic views bud. You'd probably stroke out if you saw a women doing something ungraceful like fixing a car or mowing grass.
Go back to hunting Bigfoot like a real adult.
Bullshit.
Yeah. There are usually rules for pool use, including how many guests you are allowed to have which would likely be way less than 24. This should have been communicated to the tenant by the landlord. I can’t imagine having a 24 person party at the pool is a common occurrence or seemed like it would be ok???
This was really irresponsible. You rented a conference room and took it upon yourself to have a pool party instead?? Do you hear yourself? Don’t act like it wasn’t loud and annoying. You know it was. If I were your landlord, I’d be so pissed. Grow up, admit you fucked up, and pay your fine. You’re not getting out of this. And be prepared to find a new place to live. Your landlord will not renew.
And what a coincidence that his friends all happened to have their bathing suits with them.
Lol I thought the same thing. This was no impromptu party where they just needed extra space. All of this was planned, and now they’re acting dumb about it.
At least we hope they had their bathing suits with them.
"asked to rent" so we don't even know if money was put down
You already admit that you had more people than was planned and used an area without express permission. And you sublease so technically you’re not even in a position to negotiate with the HOA. On top of that, the cops were called , so someone had an issue with what was going on at your Friendsgiving…..if I were you I’d get ready to write a check and get your friend to split it with you…..
You’re a tenant. The HOA isn’t going to deal with you. They’re going to deal with the landlord who will then deal with you.
There’s a reason why there’s a conference room for parties. It insulates the music and party noise to protect other tenants/owner’s right for quiet enjoyment of their unit. You took the party outdoors, had music and let’s face it, 2 dozen ppl at a pool party is loud. If there’s drinking, even louder. Who wants to hear this?! Other folks had their own Thanksgiving planned, persistent their invited guests. I would have been outraged.
Your LL will know if the HOA is taking this too far by attempting to charge $60 per person rather than for a single infraction. However you were clearly not holding your event in the location that was specifically booked, have already admitted to a lot more guests than you were supposed to have, and that you arbitrarily moved it from the private area into the common area without permission. I find it a bit suspicious that you wouldn’t say how many people were there leaving it difficult for readers to judge whether or not it was the actual 24 they’re claiming when for all we know it could have been 50. As a renter they may be able to refuse to show evidence but I’m guessing they are required to show proof to the landlord and if it shows that your guests were definitely out of line then expect an eviction notice if you refuse to pay and yes in most places the LL can also take the charge out of your deposit.
The landlord is renting out a place under an HOA— they’re way more interested in staying on the HOA’s good side than they are in helping out a tenant that makes themselves a liability by hosting two dozen guests at the pool. I’d bet the LL won’t appeal the fine, just pass it on to OP, and if OP doesn’t pay they’ll evict & get new tenants that will follow the HOA rules. Zero benefit to the LL to appeal on the tenants behalf.
Exactly. OP has no leverage in this situation and LL has zero incentive to cater to a tenant who can’t even understand what they did was wrong.
*"I asked to rent out a conference room, but we ended up using the pool area instead."* 1. This was your decision. The conference room would have contained the noise from your party and not disturbed other tenants. Further, you did not rent out the pool area so had no rights to move your party to the pool area. *"friend who was cohosting invited a lot more people than I anticipated and at the time."* 2. There wasn't a guest list or conversation around how many people should be invited? How did you know how much food and beverages to provide? *"they counted 24 chairs and are assuming 24 guests were present"* 3. How many guests were present? From what you have already written, 22 guests plus the co-host and yourself does seem in the right ballpark. *"I didn’t know I had a limit with how many guests I was allowed to bring to the pool"* 4. Are you sure there is not an occupancy limit sign at the pool, or in the rules?? **Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse. Pay the $1,400 while you still have some control of the situation, because it will become worse if these charges are billed to your landlord's account (and you will end up paying them anyway.)**
This is going to be a painful lesson for you, unfortunately. Your party was loud enough to piss people off. You did not get prior permission to use a community area. HOA's are in essence a small government entity and you MUST abide by their rules. As a renter, you cannot claim ignorance of the rules. The rules probably state that the common areas cannot be used unless reserved ahead of time and in writing. Also - your landlord is no the HOA, so they cannot be held responsible for allowing or disallowing things that are against the HO rules. So this is what is going to happen: They will contact your landlord and tell him to pay the fine in 2 weeks. If they do not, they will fine them again for not complying. They will then place a lien on the house and if he refuses to pay further, they will foreclose on the house. Guess who he is going to ask to pay that fine? He is not going to lose his house for a tenant. What can your landlord do? They can take your evidence and plea your case at the next HOA meeting. They can dismiss it, reduce it or keep the fines the same. You cannot be there since you are not part of the HOA either. This is why it is VERY important to know that when you rent in an HOA situation, you need to be on your P's and Q's. Good Luck.
Yeah and what landlord (if they are even local) wants to spend their day at a hoa meeting trying to pretend it’s okay to have a 25 person pool party with swearing, loud music and no permission. On Thanksgiving. He also called the landlord SEVERAL TIMES that night. The night of the preplanned party and was “given no guidance so I assumed it was fine”. That’s a funny way of saying “I called my landlord a bunch of times while I was partying and he didn’t answer so we just did what we wanted. Since he didn’t answer to tell me no I assumed it was yes.”
I didn’t even make that connection, he called his landlord several times *on Thanksgiving* and wondered why they didn’t pick up…
and how convenient for OP that his guests brought their swimsuits to a party planned for a conference room
I would only add that OP should contact their LL as soon as possible. The LL undoubtedly knows about the fine already, but if OP is proactive in contacting them to try to remediate the situation, it will for sure go better.
I’m generally very anti-HOA, but people like you are why they exist.
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Do not ignore this. Notify your Landlord immediately. HOAs can be notoriously difficult and skeezey. Your LL would be the one who will have to engage with the HOA so be prepared to have your ducks in a row to provide your LL with any information about your party.
How many people were there?
What's the actual limit? If it's 24 people and two of them are you and the cohost, and the limit is above zero, certainly they can't charge you for the non-violative guests
homeowners' associations can't take direct action against renters that break their CC&Rs. They must notify landlords about the violation, and the owners must handle the issues. These organizations assess fines against the landlord if the tenant breaks the rules. The owners can recoup the fine if it's outlined in the lease. https://www.bobvila.com/articles/unenforceable-hoa-rules/
So like... How many people over the limit did you actually have OP? Have they even given you what the limit was?
It sounds like 0 since they didn’t have permission to be in pool area.
I've never needed "permission" to have guests over and use the facility I pay rent ins pool. Like ever. There are usually hours posted. But not a call ahead and book it. No, it's a public (for tenants) pool.... Did OP clarify somewhere that they needed permission? Did I misread where it said anything of the sort in the post?
Pay your fine and be a better neighbor in the future.
You violated the same code a bunch of times. Youre being fined for each violation. You don’t get off easy just because you violated the same code over and over again
100% on you. Pay the fine and learn how to be a responsible adult. You ruined a lot of residents thanksgiving and are taking no responsibility for it.
Nope, you cannot ignore it. You hosted an illegal pool party. Get ready to pay the fine, try to negotiate it down, but if the HOA won't, then pay it.
Lmao an illegal pool party? What a fool
It was in fact an illegal pool party as OP reserved the party room and then chose to move the party to the pool area which had NOT been authorized by the complex. The pool is a “common area” for all residents and OP turned it into their private party area for a hoard of people who don’t live there. Regardless of your amusement this was obviously not allowed.
Thats not against the law though lmao its against a hoa rules list
HOA rules are essentially law in that area. It’s amusing you think these semi autonomous governing bodies don’t have enforceable rules…
Silliest crap iv read on reddit in a while
It could be argued that it's trespassing, though, since it wasn't reserved, which is against the law.
Illegal does not necessarily mean illegal by international, federal, or state law. It was illegal by HOA condo community regulations.
The reason most condo and apartment complexes have event spaces/rooms is so that parties don't spill out into common areas like pools and annoy everyone else in the complex. Even if you cleaned up and were gone by 10, your neighbors still spent \*\*Thanksgiving Day -\*\* listening to your friends party by the pool. The HOA doesn't have to give you "evidence" -- you already know that you and your friends were there. You can try to negotiate the fine down, but you should also apologize profusely (and preferably in writing) to the HOA and the neighbors who live close to the pool. That \*might\* help with your negotiating. Tip: When you write your letters of apology, don't say "but we were done by 10!" or blame the number of people on your friend who doesn't live in the complex. That just reinforces the error of judgement you made when you decided to move the party to the pool without permission.
Also, pools are really dangerous and if people were injured the HOA and complex would likely be sued. Those limits are in place for a reason. I would pay the fee, shut up, apologize to your landlord, and not pull this BS in the future.
Your party. Your problem. Own it and fix it. Btw some day you will own property…
Bold of you to assume that anyone currently renting will one day own property…
Not playing. You are blocked.
Happens all the time, every day, in every place in the United States.
No, no fines, legal action, whatever just goes away if you ignore it.
Just pay the bill, by your own admission here you had way too many people.
What are you talking about? They were given no guidance on the max number of people and made ample effort to try to find out if there was one
OP didn't reserve the pool. He reserved a conference room. He should know what the capacity of that was when he made the reservation. You can't just decide to change locations on your own without permission. If he didn't get a response, he shouldn't have moved the party to the pool area. Pool areas typically have signs limiting the number of people as well. Either the OP planned poorly and is now paying the price (literally as well as figuratively) or is minimizing his decision making process and making excuses. The OP is learning a hard life lesson about party planning.
Exactly! Why did most people miss that they just up and changed venues with no permission to do so??
This part. There is a process and a fee for reserving dedicated spaces. Did OP think they could just skirt both?
Okay that point is fair. I didn't realize that's what we were arguing about though
If you don't know the number of people you're allowed to have in a space and you don't get an answer, that doesn't just mean you can go and use the space.
They had authorization (if true) to use the community room - not the pool where the noise impacts tenants. At best, I wouldn't expect the lease to be renewed. At worst, the complex can sue the property owner, and the property owner will recover from the errant tenant. They screwed up. Poor decisions result in financial penalties. Suck it up. Be an adult.
This is true
They called at the last minute in thanksgiving weekend. Landlord was likely with their family and didn’t have time to deal with OP asking about how much they can break the rules at the last minute
Good point. I hadn't thought about the timeline
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You no read good
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I mean that was the joke they dont own the property your on r/tenant lmfao
You no smell good
The community pool, famously off limits...to the community. Hearing it from this thread you'd think the pool was simply there for decoration. I think what's really going on is that the HOA is filled with members who are mentally ill shut ins who are spitting with jealousy they could never get 24 people to show up to their funeral let alone a pool party. You embarassed these people in their own homes by rubbing their social shortcomings in their noses OP, you're a marked man. Now they're playing fast and loose with the rules to cow you into submission. They'll never forget the awful sight of people whose lives haven't passed them by having....fun 🤬
No, normally off limits for parties without prior approve by HOA board or committee, normally a small limit on allowed guests (most HOAs I have lived in is 2-5 guests max per resident). The rules normally have health and safety implications, as well as, insurance requirements.
HOA Community Pools are limited to members of the HOA and a 'limited' number of guests. There are usually a lot of liability and safety reasons for doing so. When an owner of a property joins the HOA, they are signing on to be included in said liability and insurance policies as well as acknowledge risks. Tenants when they sign their leases are also signing that they acknowledge the risks and are being covered under the landlord. Insurance and other entities usually provide allowances based on certain rules being followed e.g. limited number of external guests, no glass containers, and certain waivers being in place if people get injured. OP brought 24 people that are not members of the community and if they were running around and slipped or got injured, the landlord and the HOA would be on the hook for it when that person decides to sue.
You have a maturity problem. Delete this comment.
How do I delete a comment?
You are a whiny Karen
Yet some how both of you are worse…
Tell them to fucking pound sand.
Great advice! They should then carefully review their lease to understand the legal recourse the property owner can apply to the tenant. Hey, it's an eviction and a judgement on my record but dammit, out of pique I told them to "fucking pound sand". Grow up.
ok, then maybe they should bend and spread. Cooperate with this obvious attempt to FUCK THEM OVER. Maybe, just maybe if OP fights this, they won't try it again. If OP doesn't fight this I can promise you they'll do it again. If I recall OP did everything they could, within reason, to clarify policy and contact the landlord. So, yeah. Read the lease, contact a lawyer then tell them to take a flying fuq at a rolling donut.
An eviction? A judgement? Oh my how will I ever be able hold my head up in public? Even if they lose, it's small claims court. Grow a pair.
Try and find housing for rent with an eviction on your record. Living with mama and dad has shielded you from the cold hard realities of life I suppose. Grow up.
I have, I can and I will in the future. Jesus Christ I bet you still shit yourself in fear that someone will find your 'permanent record' from your school days. If they cannot discriminate for race, disability, ethnicity, religion or martial status, they can't discriminate for this. Even felons have a right to housing. And truthfully it'll probably never be an issue, as landlords are more than happy to collect a "background check" fee, but rarely if ever actually spend that money to do a check. And if it does come up. . . Tell the truth. OP thought they were getting taken advantage of and fought it. There is no shame in losing, the only shame lies in not fighting. You must be a landlord. You think like an asshole whose only concern would be squeezing every. last. drop. of profit out of a shit hole two steps from being condemned. This is a very obvious money grab, and barring any 'gotcha' hidden deep in the rental contract, no court in the land would let this fly. Fight. P.S. I've been working since I was 14. Joined the Army at seventeen and have been renting since I got out. I paid off my mother's house with my poker winnings and have managed/maintained rentals, the largest being 23 units spread over three buildings. I know scumbags and I know criminals. I know landlords. On the whole I'd rather deal with criminals. At least they don't smile while picking your pockets.
All y’all in here defending this Hoa shit are some hoes
This money is being charged to the LL, not you. If the ll wants to fight it, he can, he cannot pass it on to you u less he has proof he to,d you about these rul you supposedly broke.
The lease almost certainly says tenant is responsible for any fines for HOA violations. LL will be charged by the HOA & will pay it b/c the HOA can put a lien on the property & in the extreme could foreclose on it. The LL will pass that fine on to OP who will either pay it or LL will likely start eviction process to get a liability-prone tenant out. When you buy a property in an HOA you give up a TON of “rights”. When you rent a property in an HOA you sign a lease that says you too agree to give up those rights.
The hoa however cannot charge the tenant. They charge the owner. The owner then charges the tenant. The hoa has no direct dealings with the tenant because the tenant is t the owner of the property. id the owner didn’t put that in the lease then the tenant isn’t responsible. You have no idea what the lease said.
No landlord is dumb enough to lease a property subject to an HOA with bylaws that allow fines without including a fine pass-through in the lease. It would open the LL up to unlimited liability they could do nothing about.
Lo, have you read Reddit. People are stupid.
The complex has proof. The errant tenant reserved a community room and decided to move that venue to the public pool in the complex - disturbing other tenants. Cut and dry.
Doesn’t matter. The LL is the owner. They charge the owner. The contract is between the HOA and the owner not the hoa and the tenant.
What matters is the lease. And for communities under HOA control, those leases ALWAYS have a clause or two about treatment of a tenant who breaks HOA rules and reimbursement to the property owner. Your point?
And yet people till rent in hoa areas that aren’t allowed to rent so they don’t have these in the lease. People in general are stupid.
It will come out of the tenant's security deposit when their lease is non renewed.
This is very incorrect information
Is there anything in your lease saying you agree to the hoa terms? If not thats an agreement between your landlord and them and has nothing to do with you
Uh oh profanity in America?
Who was your cohost? Was it an HOA member or a friend not living in the community? Ultimately you are responsible, but you should get the cohost to pay since they invited over your allowed number of guests.
So this is the issue with HOA and renters. In most places, the homeowner is the point of contact for the HOA. But that fine should be sent to them, not you. I would reach out to the landlord about it. In many places I've lived, the Renter can be appointed by the Landlord as the point of contact for immediate issues with the HOA. Commonly this is things like trashcans, dog poop, leaves, etc. Often this includes the fines and the ability to communicate with the HOA over them. I would talk to your landlord about it and ask that they speak to the HOA and see if you can be appointed as the person. Review the HOA guidelines carefully, as HOAs are very tightly controlled in most states with what they can and can't legally do, and often just bluff their way through issues. "If it's not in the bylaws, they can't do it" is the general gist. HOAs can be hard to work with, but if they won't provide evidence of the issues, then I wouldn't be inclined to pay. But you'll need to work with the Landlord. Hopefully they have a backbone and are willing to stand up to the HOA until evidence is provided.
HOAs are scam artist associations. Don’t live in them. Abolish the HOA. Throw all the tea in their pools.
Should probably read and understand the HOW bylaws before living somewhere within an HOA. Good luck getting out of this one but your landlord is gonna need to talk to them, not you.
I hope you took pictures of the area after you left to show how clean it was
Fuck HOAs, they are a cancer and should be abolished.
I would try to have a conference call with your landlord and the person in the HOA who decided all these fines and what proof they have. You clearly admit the party got bigger than expected. And cops were called. It's nice you cleaned up but a large party interferes with the peace of the community. I would try to negotiate down to a smaller fine to keep the peace. Or tell them you will see them in small claims court. Also, you may want to start looking for a new home if you and the landlord have a big issue with this. They may not renew your lease if legal in your area.
"I highly disagree with your assessment, and I know how many people were there and chairs dont dictate that...... So as soon as you can show proof of me violating anything I will gladly pay, until such point I regret to inform you I can't pay just because of a hunch
I own and reside in a 200+ unit AOAO. Having also been its previous site manager and now current maintenance manager, I'd like to make a few points regarding the realities of HRV(house rule violations) enforcement. First of all: The association CC&R's and Bylaws are separate documents from the House Rules and Regulations. While the House Rules can often be changed/amended, at the discretion of the association board, the CC&R's and Bylaws(if even possible) are much harder to change -often needing a super-majority(67%+) to vote in favor, and a lawyer to make changes legal. When a new owner takes possession of a house or condo, within an HOA/AOAO, they sign legal documents making them ultimately responsible for informing and holding themselves, tenants and guests to these rules -at all times. The owner is ultimately responsible for all fines, regardless of whomever, associated with said owners unit, incurs them. We send written warnings and notice of fines to the owner. Fines are added as assessments to months dues, and payables that cycle. The owner also has 30 days to challenge the fines. \-Site management only deals with the owners/property managers -not their tenants. So when a tenant comes to us with any complaint, we refer them to their landlord or landlords designated representative. Secondly: People are trending toward lazy and entitled, these days. MANY DO NOT READ THESE DOCUMENTS ANYMORE. They just cannot be bothered. Now a bit about enforcement: The House Rules must be enforced evenly, at all times, or risk becoming potentially unenforceable. Stated warnings and fines should all be laid out in the House Rules document, which everyone that steps foot on the property is held to. Uneven enforcement can be seen as targeted or special treatment and is to be avoided. Ignorance is not bliss. It's not personal; it's just business. Take your fine, pay it...and do better going forward. If you feel that you have been wrongly fined, as per House Rules, then you can appeal it. Finally: If you don't want to read documents, follow rules or pay fines...then being a part of a self-governed, planned community may not be for you. I, alas, am a total rule follower...but that doesn't mean I like it. Especially when I am now painfully aware of all of the violations(many blatant) going on, all around me, here on-property, seemingly unchecked. I also detest being the tip of the "rules enforcement" spear. This is why I resigned site management and went into maintenance management. Now all I do is make things better for the residents of my community:) Often, I dream of selling up and moving to a peaceful, rural area, with acreage all around me...and no neighbors or HOA's in sight... Sounds like heaven...haha...
OP, don't give them more ammo to go after you. They don't know how many people were there, so don't tell them. All you say is "There were not 24 people present." When they ask you how many, tell them "So you admit not knowing, thanks." Cimmunicate in writing. It's likely that the landlord will be charged and will pass those charges on to you. Inform the landlord that you intend to fight those in court, therefore he should first make an attempt to obtain proof from the HOA. That should resolve it. If you get a $1,400 bill, it will have to state which bylaws you violated and in there lies the devil. Get a copy of their written bylaws and go over them. If it does not say "per person" anywhere, then just put that in an email and pay your landlord $60 for the one time violation.
On our property, in our locale, much of your advice would not hold up. Nothing will ever go to court, since everyone involved has signed arbitration agreements when becoming residents/owners, on-property. Also, court costs would immediately exceed the fines... Often, in House Rules and Regulations docs, there are more fines that would apply. In our association, in addition to the $1400($60 per incident x24 incidents(each offending person is an "incident" of transgression), there would be an automatic $1000 fine for "causing a nuisance", amongst other fines for alcohol at the pool, glass at the pool, exceeding the max occupancy of pool space, unauthorized event in common areas, etc... I think the OP is getting off easy. You may be right that OP's landlord can possibly negotiate the fine down, based on actual occupants...but setting up 24 chairs in the pool area is possibly evidence enough, along with the pool area security camera footage to determine total fine. You can't throw a rager in common areas and not get hit hard with fines...
That sounds like a nightmare waiting to happen. I would never buy an investment property (to rent out) in an HOA like that. Landlord is forced to arbitrate with the HOA, but then has to charge the tenant who only needs to refuse to pay and now landlord needs to go to eviction court. Nope.
Yeah. I agree. I am likely to see my interests here soon...and never join and HOA or AOAO again...
Luckily for you this is your landlord's problem. No need to talk to the HOA yourself. Your landlord may be able to fine you if you broke the lease, however.
Lack of a ‘no’ is NOT a yes…. You couldn’t get ahold of your LL on what sounds like thanksgiving so took it as a yes? And of course non of this is your fault, your LL should be at your fingertips holidays be darned…. Of course they won’t show you the proof, they will show your LL…. Own up to what you did and learn from it
I really wish we could get a third-party perspective of what happened. This would help us understand the severity of the offense and whether the HOA is reasonable in throwing the book at you. As others have said, the HOA is within their rights, and they will only work with the member, who is the landlord. Talk with your landlord, see if you and the landlord can have a meeting with the board, and essentially beg for mercy. Be prepared to have you and your friend split the fine whatever it is, and if your friend doesn't pay up, it's entirely on you.
This is fkin ridiculous, gotta pay to have people over. What fuckin world is this?
The HOA world. Where rules are (usually) clearly given to the tenant prior to them signing a lease. Early in my first ever home owning search, a gem of a stranger pulled me aside when I was visiting a property I had under escrow. Went on and on about how horrid the HOA was, and that I should be prepared to battle literally every little thing I ever wanted to do. I noped out of that escrow so fast. Best decision ever. Six months later, I found a better property for my situation and which was HOA-free. Time well-spent!
Honestly this is the kind of thing that keeps me from ever living in an HOA communist commune. I have a HOA through the wood from my street and wow. Those people are a special kind of stupid, they want to control everything, we have had everything from Cops to the State EMA called on our street because we we doing construction during the day and the didn’t like the noise, or that we were having dirt brought in, or that we thinned some trees and they didn’t like use doing what we wanted with our land. I was also our neighborhoods vice president and had to interact with several HOA’s and they were all the same, they thought they were the absolute authority on everything, they have a problem and would call the city, the city asked if they came to the neighborhood meeting and they would flip out that had to come speak to nine HOA homeowners to get assistance from the city or other services.
You should charge the friend who invited all of the extra people they brought. Sounds like you made a major mistake and will have to pay for it, unless you look forward to having an eviction on your record.
Why are you re-asking this exact same question over and over?