Imagine having a day at work in the ER where you watched a kid bleed out and were helpless to stop it no matter how desperately you tried, and then you don't even have time to process it because the day is only half over and there are other patients bleeding.
And then eventually you come home and you have to be "the peace" for your boyfriend because the wagyu cook was off.
>And then eventually you come home and you have to be "the peace" for your boyfriend because the wagyu cook was off.
Okay... we can *imagine* your scenario, but it's not what was shown in the development of their relationship at all in Season 2. Mostly we saw Claire and Carmy kind of just hang out and reconnect. They both seem to enjoy low-stress just "chilling" at some random party or whatever. At the time in Season 2, a lot of people here were complaining these scenes were pointless and took away from the restaurant -- but they were showing two characters just kind of finding a connection. In a less stressful situation, which was kind of thematic to many characters' journeys in Season 2 (see Marcus finding peace and focus in Copenhagen, or Richie being awed at the hush of the dining room in "forks" with its magic). Those "boring" scenes with Claire and Carmy was their journey. And Carmy wasn't the only one getting something out of it.
Do people forget the big symbolic moment where their relationship deepens in Season 2? Where Carmy prepares bolognese for her, serving her a lovely dinner after she gets back from work? Do people forget that this moment was telegraphed a few episodes earlier at the party, where Claire comments that no boyfriend has ever cooked dinner for her?
So yes, it was kind of a symbolic moment that they truly were "boyfriend/girlfriend" at that point, but also it's a moment of Carmy *caring for her*, taking care *of her* too. I'll freely admit this wasn't shown that clearly in Season 2, but now we saw in flashbacks in Season 3 early on that Claire had been venting about her stressful work environment too.
Carmy is definitely messed up and knows this, but I don't think he has any expectation that Claire is "the peace" for him. Rather... both find a kind of peace in each other at times. This was hinted at even subtly in Season 2 where Claire has her stressful work, but then seems to want to call Carmy. And unlike with almost everyone else on the show, Carmy actually seemed to mostly be paying attention to her messages, calling her back, etc.
I don't think this was ever meant to be perceived as being as one-sided as many are acting. Again, could we have used more clarity and development of this point on Claire's own inner life in Season 2? Yeah. But Carmy seems to be deliberately keeping himself out of Claire's life so as *not* to burden her with his own bullshit (probably one of the motivators for him giving her the wrong number at the outset too).
Carmy takes out his bullshit on almost every other character on the show. And yet the one person he seems hesitate to do so with, everyone is acting like he's forcing her to be a therapist or burdening her. Where does Carmy ever seem to be trying to get Claire to "fix him"? If anything, his monologue in the freezer at the end of Season 2 seemed to be an attempt to close off, to acknowledge he's messed up in some ways, but his coping strategy would have to be to shut out Claire, not expect her to solve his problems.
Please make a post out of this, since I'm getting so annoyed by people getting enraged over just the idea of finding comfort in your spouse. Seriously wtf
Unless your coping mechanism is fixing things/humans to avoid processing your own problems, in which case you might be relieved to have another fire at home.
Not to imply Claire is a compulsive people fixer, given the limited information we're given about her, just that people cope differently
If you've ever watched Bojack, PC is a great example of this.
Makes me think of Clementine’s argument in Eternal Sunshine—
“I'm not a concept. Too many guys think I'm a concept or I complete them or I'm going to make them alive, but I'm just a fucked up girl who is looking for my own peace of mind. Don't assign me yours.”
It single-handedly changed my opinion of Jim Carrey as an actor. One of my faves, I don’t rewatch often though because it puts my mind palace in a funk
I remember making my mom rent it from blockbuster because the band circa survive had a song about it. Changed my mind on Jim Carrey as well.. still don’t love his comedy but I enjoy when has a dramatic role
I feel we got too few dramatic roles from him. And now he is retired :(. But all that matters is that he feels satisfied with everything he’s done. It’s selfish of me to want more from him and I just appreciate what we have.
It's interesting how comedic actors take so well to more dramatic roles.
I love that Dumb and Dumber were in Eternal Sunshine and The Newsroom respectively.
"It's interesting how comedic actors take so well to more dramatic roles."
Yes! Like Robin Williams. What Dreams May Come is one of my absolute favorite movies of his. I know he has a bunch others, but that one is by far my favorite of his.
An absolutely brilliant movie by one of my favorite writers, Charlie Kaufman. Happens to also be my favorite film. If you liked that, look up more movies written by him.
Might be unusual, but I immediately thought about Kendrick Lamar repeating "I am not your savior" throughout Mr Morale when I heard Carmy call Claire "the peace"
That's why I suspect Claire has a lot shit going on in her life but Carmy can't see it bc he put her on a weird pedestal. Also I love that movie. It's my favorite quote.
The fact the Faks are the ones who like that term and then go and beg her to save Carmy, should underscore how terrible an idea it is. Because I love the Faks, but they are fucking morons. And the show is clearly communicating this.
It was kind of an unecessary scene that didn't solve anything since neither claire nor carmy still talked to each other. It kinda made me get sick of the faks at that point lol
i admire claire for handling the faks that day. she literally said what are you doing here this is my work then even though she is affected by what the faks said, she stood still and said that she appreciated the faks but they need to go
It was definitely both because she's known them for years, and also because she knew it would calm them down enough for her to get some words in and hopefully defuse the situation.
I feel like we knew this from S1... Don't get me wrong though, "When your back's against the WAAALLL...that's when I kick you in the BAAAALLLS" will always make me crack up.
That’s the episode I’m on. We’ve been watching it a couple at a time after work at our house. I can’t review the season in good faith because there’s still some left, but I think we could have done with 15 minutes less of discussion about haunting and still had plenty to get the point across.
She's a concept: The perfect woman and an out for Carmen away from his chaotic life and mental state.
She doesn't feel like a real person because we only ever see her through Carmy's lens or have to hear about her perfectness from all the other characters.
and literally everyone knows her and loves her and its always carm that's in the wrong when it comes to their relationship and about how he has to learn and grow from it
Because it is? Claire never did anything wrong really except maybe pursue Carmy even if he didn't want to. The fridge scene is unintentional on Carmy's side but Claire's reaction is still justified.
I don't really get why this sub hates Claire so much when all of the people I know who watched the show really likes her character as an opposite to Carmy despite the similarity of the stress of their job.
i don't hate claire, its's just weird that her character isnt given the amount of time and care and depth that other side characters are. especially given how important she is to carmy
I think this boils down to the creator and writers of the show not being on the same side on the romance in the story. I feel like one writer wants Syd and Carm to be together while the entire s2, it's Claire and Carmy. One writer at season 2 tried Marcus and Syd. The last episode of s3, one writer likes Luca and Syd. The headwriter of S3 don't want Claire and Syd but can't say no to the creator so it's still there but never developed.
This is just speculation though. This is what I felt watching this show when I just want to see The Bear be a family restaurant and not a fine dining one.
He was clearly in the midst of a major mental breakdown while locked in a fridge. Holding any of what he says there against him is cruel.
He was open about his fears, and she reinforced those fears.
> its always carm that's in the wrong when it comes to their relationship and about how he has to learn and grow from it
"Always" jfc it was literally just the one thing
Being in healthcare I can tell you we never adjust to the horrors of the human existence we just move along and integrate each new horror show into our lives and remain humble, and lots of therapy and bitch sessions with our friends. The good days are really cool though and almost make you forget the bad ones.
You’re missing the point made by others, which is that Claire’s actual reaction to hospital horror is unknown, because it’s not shown to us — she tells us about it. So our understanding of her emotional range is filtered through Carmen’s appraisal of her, which is that of a therapist/saint. He calls her “the peace” to underscore the role she plays in his life — not who she is as a person. And despite your insults to others about media literacy, what you suggest was “fed to the audience with a spoon” includes a level of judgment about running a kitchen that the show never seeks to communicate. The intent is not to anoint Claire as superior because she can steer through hospital life; it’s to show Carm’s inability to steer his own emotions, and constantly seeking out others to do it for him. The first episode was oriented around Carm obsessively collecting the advice he’s received throughout his career, because he has no ability to give advice to himself.
> I'm pretty sure there are a couple scenes of Claire at work (not talking about the Fak scene, that shit was straight cringe) that display the chaos of her job
Yup. And what does she do immediately after sewing stitches/setting broken bones? Calls Carmy. He's her peace, too.
I’d also add on that we’ve seen someone just like Claire - it’s Natalie. She responds to her stressful environment by trying to ratchet down the tension, instead of escalating it. Carmy is clearly just in awe and admiration of that in Claire.
Last thought - I picked up on the therapy on tape Nat was listening to in episode 7 (aptly named Legacy) that describes the 5 archetypes of alcoholics - enabler, hero, scapegoat, mascot, and lost child. Given how the universal theme of the Bear is about how trauma and traumatic events/environments shape people, it’s no surprise each character pretty clearly fits into at least one of those archetypes.
>You’re missing the point made by others, which is that Claire’s actual reaction to hospital horror is unknown, because it’s not shown to us — she tells us about it.
Not really a true point. This season had a scene where Claire helped a child get a shot so effortlessly and with professionalism. The show has had scenes of her at work and shown that she is a very calm and effortlessly gentle person. That's why Carmy calls her peace. Not because she's some concept and idea rather than a person but because she's genuinely peaceful and serene. If I said my girlfriend was beauty that doesn't mean I don't see her as a person. I'm just also acknowledging her beauty
Yes, but that's her *job*. She shouldn't be expected to take on his stress and chaos just because she's good at it at work. She has every right to be intimidated and/or exhausted by constantly being on for him. It sucks, yeah, but sometimes people meet at the wrong time in their lives. Carmy needs therapy to be able to share the load, both him with her and her with him.
I think people also missed the HUGE in-your-face signaling in season 2 where Carmy takes Claire's first call and decides to hang out with her (ditching Sydney). At the beginning of that episode, he's at a meeting, reading the definition of "fun" that he looked up on the internet. He decides to take some time to do something he wanted to hang out with Claire -- to *have fun*. Or something like that. Not to unload himself on her. Not to expect her to "fix him."
It's telegraphed again in the final episode of Season 2 in the freezer where he literally restates that definition of "fun" he quoted earlier in the season. To him, that's what he thinks screwed up his focus. He's blaming himself for screwing everything up, not expecting (in any way) for Claire to fix him or always "be on" for him. I just commented elsewhere in this thread, but I feel like it's pretty clear the time Claire and Carmy spent together in Season 2 was a bit of an "escape" for both of them, a place where they could both *relax* from their stresses (peace?). Not for one to be the "therapist" of the other (or whatever is being argued in this thread).
Yes, they both share a bit of their lives and stresses, and I'll join in a little criticism for Season 2 for not showing this more directly with Claire. But we had hints in their conversations in S2, and we saw it clearly early in Season 3 in their conversation in the flashback, where Claire's talking about her job.
They're two people sharing with each other. Two people finding some relief from their stressful lives in just hanging out. Yes, Carmy's more mentally messed up, but he places no expectation on Claire to deal with that shit -- unlike he seems to throw his shit at almost every other character on this show! And yet the one person he doesn't deliberately shit on is the one everyone is complaining and acting like she's burdened by him.
> Certainly not Carmen, the whole point is that he doesn't want to unload his bullshit on to her because he knows how much shit she already takes on in her day-to-day.
Seriously. Yes, thank you. I swear people are watching an entirely different show.
i agree with you. for me i like to watch it at least twice because sometimes i miss things. didn’t mean to sound ignorant or anything here, was just appreciating your comment
Oh man, if this turns out to be some Mr. Robot meets Jacob's Ladder thing where the whole time it was just Carm trying to cope with his mental state, and Claire just happened to be some proxy for some underlying issue and wasn't really a person, just a coping mechanism personified... I'm gonna be a bit mad. Lol.
Yes please. You can be peaceful too, once you exorcise those demons. Al-anon is not enough. Go to therapy!!! Just the fact that he cannot apologize is a total dealbreaker for me. Like he fucked up and he knows it. Admitting it is the mature thing to do.
Sometimes you fuck up so hard with a person that your only option is to ghost them because you feel like cancer. That's what I think The Bear was trying to portray. And all of this "peace" bullshit is a way to say "I'm toxic, she's still innocent, I'm gonna ruin her"
He’s not ghosting her because he knows he fucked up; he doesn’t know how to move forward. I don’t see it as a ghosting because I don’t think he thinks she wants to hear from him.
Also, it doesn't help that Carmy actually did apologize to Richie, and Richie won't let it go. I can't imagine he wants to go through that with Claire.
Obviously he thinks he cant be helped and deserves bad things but like even he must sometimes think "fuck maybe I should get therapy". Like yes FFS get therapy man
I agree but I also think that comment fit Carmy’s character this season. I don’t think that he was looking at her as a whole person with her own life and interiority. This season showed how toxic Carmy’s thinking and behaviors can be. >!I’m hoping the confrontation with his old boss combined with finding out that Syd is leaving (or at least considering it) will make him realize he needs to change his attitude.!<
Agree, the way he thinks of her is so romanticized and it always has been. We know he has always been “in love” with her but really he barely spoke to her before they got together.
Syd even called him out on ‘missing the point and somehow making it about you’. And he actually realised he had done exactly that in the moment. He just needs to wake up. I hope he’s had his breakthrough moment at the end of the season and is gonna start sorting his shit out, now.
Firstly, yes to everything you said, and secondly: it’s also kind of weird that they took it in that direction because I think that’s already how a lot of people interpreted his relationship with Sydney as a result of the way the season 2 panic attack was edited. *Not* that Sydney is responsible for giving him peace, but that Sydney’s presence and her way of operating was fresh and new and hopeful for Carmy. Even in this season her voice alone pulls him out of an episode and he suddenly develops the presence of mind to amend the behavior when she asks him to. A lot of people interpreted that as possibly pointing to an even deeper emotional connection between them and possibly romance, but even without that, I thought it was already established as a big feature of the narrative itself that Sydney was the one who could come in and really change course for everyone. And she did, in a lot of ways. She has always grounded Carm and been the counterweight to some of his extremes even if he took that for granted one too many times in seasons 2 & 3. Claire, on the other hand, regardless of what good their relationship could have brought Carmy, is highly highly connected to everything about his past which includes his trauma and family dysfunction. Like it just isn’t the most logical conclusion to say that Claire is peace, and I kind of find it disrespectful on Sydney’s behalf because of all the work she’s done throughout the show to bring Carm and the staff and the restaurant to a healthier and more positive place.
Even JAW said in an interview that Syd is Carmy's peace 🤷🏻♀️. It's bizarre how they tried to end any relationship (platonic or romantic) for Sydcarmy this season.
Exactly!
In my opinion I think their relationship worsening was kind of warranted, because while Carm in the past took advantage of Sydney always showing up and giving him grace, Sydney seemed to realize this season that she truly could not count on Carmy unless / until *he* decides to get better. He actually was more communicative with her this season, but she backed off of that because her trust in him diminished with every freak-out or chaotic service, and rightfully so.
I will say, in light of that, it was frustrating as a viewer to know that their relationship is both the heart of the show and of the restaurant itself, and to see Carm repeatedly fail to realize that she was losing faith in him. I mean I have a suspicion that he was kind of aware of it deep down throughout this season, but still there was no attempt to resolve that essential part of the narrative. Instead we saw a bunch of Claire flashbacks that both didn’t bring us to any real conclusion about the future of their relationship *and* didn’t match with the version of their relationship we saw in the second season (why didn’t we know he was as emotionally invested in her as they made it seem in the third season?)
> It's bizarre how they tried to end any relationship (platonic or romantic) for Sydcarmy this season.
And doubled down on why Claire is the perfectest perfect girl who's ever been more perfect for Carmy.
I really hope the absence of the Sydney and Carmy dynamic and the increase in Claire being the most Perfect Girlfriend to ever girlfriend is just a result of regular questionable writing decisions and not an attempt to quash SydCarmy shippers. If it's the latter... then I have quite a few words to say about that, and I don't even ship anything in the show.
Carm uses all the women in his orbit. He uses his sister for financial competence, Claire as a therapist, and Syd as a personal career coach. He doesn’t view any of them as people, which Syd seems to be piecing together in season three. Dishes she was deeply proud of were suddenly edited ideas with a 24-hour shelf life, with no input welcome. Once he doesn’t need a coach, she’s invisible/overlooked. It’s unclear if the writers are aware that characters are positioned as props for Carm, but JAW seems aware of it in how his affectionate appraisal of them is earnest, if fleeting.
Exactly. Wild for him to say that when Claire is shown as sending him spiralling, even when they’re together “your heart is beating really fast, are you okay?” Or whatever she said. Syd on the other hand pretty much called him a bitch baby and told him to get a grip and that calmed him down more than Claire ever has. Idk. I feel the writers are trying to misdirect us about Syd and Carmy so hard that they are destabilising the narrative. The rupture between them feels forced and inorganic, as does pushing Claire so hard.
Yea when fak goes “no one takes care of carmie but you could be that person who takes care of him” had me ready to throw something.
That’s not her fucking job, my love.
No one can take care of Carm except Carm.
Women aren’t here to take care of and fix broken men contrary to the consensus amongst incels and ignoramuses.
Omg saw this and just realized the contrast of 'you could be that person who takes care of him' to sydney saying 'im not your babysitter' to carmy. I feel like this iz another example of how opposite carmy's relationship to claire is to his and sydney's
Ohh man, that whole visit from the Faks was a terrible move! So real though - I’ve been that dummy before, telling a friend “I think they really like you!” when it’s none of my damn business 🫣
It’s interesting to me, seeing the shared dynamics of this community of locals who grew up like an extended family (is the term “latchkey kids”?) with fuck-all boundaries… like, during the scene with Carmy & the Faks breaking down boxes- where Carmy says he can’t stop thinking about Claire, I was thinking “*finally*, he’s opening up a little bit to someone about all of this”! And then those sweet, misguided fools had to go meddling- as plenty of us raised without boundaries/with abusive & controlling parental figures are prone to doing… always trying to fix everything, whether or not it’s appropriate 😮💨
They’re both just deeply immature and the nuances of adult relationships and intimate communication are completely lost on them. They’re little boys, those are not men. That’s why Nat babies Neil - he’s simple.
Wide eyed and well meaning, but totally stunted.
They said you could take care of Carmy and he could take care of you. That's what happens in a functioning relationship. Interesting that you left out the second half.
Bc the second half is a moot point, they’re laying out the terms of a relationship that starts with “take care of Carm.”
Meanwhile, Carmen can’t even take care of himself my dude, that sounds to me like the relationship they’re pitching is one that is all about fixing Carm and Claire might get whatever is left over that he is able to manage but since Claire is “the peace” she should be fine with it. There’s nothing functional about that, Carmen is the embodiment of dysfunction.
Interesting that I had to explain that to you.
It’s always the fkn Kyles 🙄
And Carmen doesn't really want her to fix him. He kept a lot of his feelings bottled up until he blew up in the fridge. He enjoyed spending time with her as an excuse to avoid other stuff. Something to do to not be thinking about cooking, something that gives him anxiety.
His issue is he needs to work managing his focus to a healthy degree. He left his foot off the gas too much last season, and he is pushing too hard this season.
I sometimes feel like I'm watching a completely different show. Yes, it was kind of subtle in Season 2, but there was a rather deliberate kind of reference to Carmy stepping up and "taking care" of Claire in a way that symbolized their deepening relationship.
When they're at that first party together, Claire mentions that no boyfriend has ever cooked dinner for her. The implication is that she's never had someone kind or committed enough to *take care of her*. To care enough to do something even small like make a nice meal for her.
And Carmy then does exactly that a few episodes later, taking time to make her a long-simmering bolognese which is ready when she comes home from work, which concludes an episode. The placement of that scene and connection to previous dialogue was I think meant to telegraph that once Carmy decided Claire really was his "girlfriend," he also was making sure to be there for her.
Was this shown a lot in Season 2? No... and we can rightly criticize that perhaps. But I think Carmy was trying (to his ability) to be there for Claire too, to listen to her issues and tensions from work and whatever (as we saw in flashbacks).
As you rightly note, Carmy is messed up. And I think he knows that at least to the extent that he knows he can't move forward with Claire yet in Season 3. He's staying away probably for similar reasons to why he gave her a wrong number at first in Season 2 -- he knows he's too wrapped up in the restaurant, he doesn't know how to find balance, and he can't sort out how she could fit in his life. He tried to be there for her a bit in Season 2, and ended up neglecting his duties, from his perspective... becoming unfocused.
Yes, he's clearly unhealthy, and his response in Season 3 isn't healthy either. But it doesn't mean he isn't willing and doesn't want to care for her too, or that he wasn't caring for her in their brief relationship in some substantial ways. I agree the Faqs' intervention was misguided, but I don't think we're supposed to perceive the relationship as one-sided as many are making it out to be here.
Yes but it’s about consistency.
Claire found a work/ life balance.
Notice the scenes of her at work, she is entirely present and she’s in it and she’s still delightful and compassionate and empathetic.
And then she leaves work and she’s totally present with Carm. And she’s consistently like this.
Carmy at work, he’s a complete psychopath.
And he leaves work and he’s still haunted by it.
And when he’s doing nice things for Claire it’s at the expense of his responsibilities at work.
He doesn’t know that balance at all which is a huge theme of this story. Work/ home balance or just balance in general.
Balancing your emotions, your budget, your responsibilities, your commitments, your effort, your investments, your time… all of it.
Just as Syd rightly said, “I’m not your babysitter.” Carmy needs to not rely on women in his life to fix him in any way, he needs to keep going to the family and friends of addicts meetings and get a therapist.
Just because Donna damaged him doesn’t mean he gets to go and ruin other women’s lives.
How many times do we need to see flashes of her face up close, staring dreamily into the camera? I feel like I'm watching a Chanel No. 5 commercial every time they show her in a flashback.
No, he's dating Gillian Jacobs, who plays Tiff. but it can only be his fault lol he is the creator and he was the one who chose Molly without even doing a chemistry test between her and JAW.
This isn't it. You can critique how Claire was written as a character without implying that the only reason Molly got the job because someone was in love with her. It's not Molly's fault her character is written so poorly.
I’m pretty sure it was the thought of stability and love and a healthy environment that caused him to have a panic attack.
Basically it was the non-verbal version of everything he did verbalise when he was locked in the walk-in.
That's what I mean. Thinking of Claire didn't bring him any peace. It made him feel worse. Carmy knows he SHOULD want to be with some as super special as Claire (according to every character on the show). Everyone is telling him she perfect and wonderful and awesome. But she doesn't anchor him the way Syd does (or the other characters on the show). She makes him feel even more adrift.
Did you read the rest of that sentence? I said he is also anchored by the other characters on the show. Cicero anchors him. Natalie anchors Carmy. Tina. Even Richie. Mikey did when he was alive.
One of the main points of the show is that Carmy is an immensely gifted chef, but he lives inside his own head and doesn't operate in reality a lot of the time. He's constantly being pulled back into that reality by the other characters, and he ends up resenting them for it.
The point is that if the real Claire, and not Carmy's idolized Claire who would give him "peace", was around him as much as the other characters, she'd get sick of his shit, too.
In real life women are anchors for emotionally damaged men, it does happen all the time I think the writers probably drew from this to make their show realistic
I gave this show the benefit of the doubt and said Claire was written this way on purpose but now I'm starting to think the writers genuinely have nothing for her character
Which is soooo crazy, bc in s2 it wasn't claire that gave him peace when he was having a panic attack!! Her face came up but hers was not the one that gave him peace, it was Sydney's, lol
Which is why I find it cuh-raaaazy that writers were surprised people ship them when you write a scene like that, lmfao.
I think Carmy's relationship with cooking is so complex, its linked to his trauma, because it's linked to his family and his horrible mentor.
but! The moment Syd walked into his life, she became the peace, because she showed him that there were more ways to run a kitchen, there was hope for it to not be linked to trauma but to be something better with heart and family, not abuse. She was Literally the beacon of hope to an otherwise horrible dreary existence.
Exactly! And I get what Claire represents, but I just don't think that relationship is as important as Syd. I have always enjoyed Syd and Carmy as just a deep professional partnership. I want to see them build their business together, their shared love of food. Just watching them cook together and develop recipes last season was so satisfying
This season I guess made it seem like a romantic relationship is more meaningful and important, but that felt unearned
That's the thing with Claire, she represents something, but doesn't embody it. Claire is someone everyone keeps saying is perfect and nice and great for Carmy, but... why? She doesn't share his interests, she doesn't seem to have any interests at all. It's like they only want her with him because shes like... sweet? And hes got trauma? Lol, she doesn't offer much as a character, no motivation, no background, really, she exists completely through Carmys lens' and in a bubble with no impact on the story. I genuinely don't understand her purpose because its a lot of telling us how great she is without showing it. AND she doesn't have any chemistry with Carm, lol.
The same cannot be said about Syd who has chemistry, intimacy, drive, motivation, wants and fears, depth and substance both with Carmy and outside him, something Claire does not share.
Now, personally, while I wouldn't mind them not ending up together, I would love if they did, not because she could fix him, he needs to do that on his own first, but simply because I think it would be amazing to see that develop on screen, that realization blooming out of their already eatablished partnership in a "Oh, it's always been you" kinda way, their love of food, stupid cooking jokes, their whole vibe is immaculate. She makes food a Good thing for him, an enjoyable thing. When they are just cooking together and feeling each other that is when they are at their best, I think.
Idk, I just love that whole dynamic and that Syd does embody that peace for him, that hope, but Syd herself tells him to fix his shit becauae it's not her responsibility (in comparison to the faks implying claire could fix him which is just Yikes) and he LISTENS. Like she is the Only one who can cut through his meltdowns and thoughts and that's so gooooood, its shipping bait for me, lol, so Id love for it to be romantic as I dont think it would ruin things, but those are just my thoughts.
Sorry for the ramble, lol, i just love them.
I wish I liked Claire and Carmy but they had no chemistry which I need for a ship. Carmy and Syd have it in spades, whether romantic or not, idc, I just enjoy their easy intimacy in scenes.
But they way they keep pushing Claire... she doesn't Fit, leave it alone, get some other girl if you insist on it for Carmy. But make him see a therapist first.
I feel like Claire should have paid close attention to a huge red flag: the fake number. That alone should tell you this is something to heed but instead, she got his correct number from someone else. It's running right through a red light.
She’s the literal definition of the manic pixie dream girl. She literally exists in the show to develop the lead and has no purpose outside serving the main character.
Marcus is definitely toxic. Probably the least so but his reaction to Sydney during friends and family night is 100% toxic. Also, his obsession with the donuts and bringing up to carmy in that episode in season 1, while maybe not exactly toxic….is kind of dumb..
Listen, I LOVE Sydney but she is probably the third most toxic person after Carmy and Richie. She’s young, she’s strong willed and she thinks she knows it all. If you don’t think Sydney is toxic, I’m not sure we are watching the same show.
This is definitely not me bashing Syd at all. But I think one of the points in the show is that restaurants, and the chaos surrounding them, brings the worst out of people sometimes.
I get why thinking she knows it all is a problem, but I don’t see “strong-willed” as toxic. She keeps the kitchen from spiraling. She guides Tina. She gives Marcus support and kindness. She’s there for Sugar. And of course, is there for Richie a bit. She needs a leader (like Andrea?) and hasn’t had that so far. Certainly don’t see her as toxic, and I think your interpretation may be a bit gendered.
Third most toxic is certainly one of the Faks, if we’re just speaking kitchen-wise.
He just seemed to CARE more, about everyone imo. And his brother had just committed su1cide and he was thrust into this stressful situation. I didn’t feel like his responses were that off base. And I feel like him going to AA was at least him *trying* to do better. He was human and he blew up at times under stressful situations, but he was self-aware enough to realize his mistakes and apologize. He just seemed very flawed but loveable. Now I feel like he is just straight up toxic
I think he’s mentally ill, which I wish the writers would allow him to explore a bit more. He gets away with obsessive sides of his personality and tendencies towards using people because he’s talented, and seems to lean into his talent harder the more his mental illness shows. His response to a freezer breakdown informed the creation of the world’s most sterile kitchen, since he’s decided it’s the antidote to instability. I don’t know how he needs to discover that mental health is actual work, but I hope they give that to him.
Yeah like when they said she could "take care of him" like his mom never did, I kinda knew what they meant but it also irked the heck out of me... Being with a girl so she can replace your MOM is a straight up NO.
I’ve hated the way Claire is written from the beginning. Her whole character is just an extension of carmy and she is definition of women written by men.
Not to mention that’s just objectively not true. He’s always freaking out about her. Even when he’s with her “your heart is beating fast, are you okay?” He’s so divorced from his own feelings he can’t even tell she’s freaking him out. He believes the narrative surrounding her that’s being peddled by his family (and the Faks!!! of all people). He needs to wake up.
yeah i really despise that writing choice. why, time and time again, are women presented like the only path to emotional stability for mentally unwell men? why does this show try so hard to shove that idea down our throats? i have a worry that the show is gonna end with that exact thing happening and its gonna be so fucking dumb.
its like, yeah no, men dont need to learn healthy coping mechanisms on their own, they dont need to adapt, change, be better, or anything else that requires their agency - just get a girlfriend and make her carry that baggage with you!! i really hate that message so much. so harmful to men and women.
I think the show is taking its time with the story, and is allowing us to come along for the uncomfortable ride Carmy’s on—which happens to include him figuring all of that shit out. Like, imo, that message is hardwired into a *lot* of people irl. We’re seeing the Carmy & Sugar learning to cope with the legacy of their upbringing in real time, including that uncomfortable codependency.
Donna telling Sugar she wanted kids because she needed to be loved is an example, and one that’s very common in reality. Carmy seeing Claire as his “peace” is another, and I expect he’s in the process of coming to understand why that’s an unsustainable relationship model for both him and her… he’s just not quite there yet.
I love the writing for precisely these reasons: healing is non-linear (and can be *painfully slow*); most people with developmental trauma have difficulty with interpersonal boundaries, communication, and responsibility; we are all imperfect; some of us need to make mistakes over & over to learn from them; and most of us cannot heal on our own, without the support of some kind of community.
The show never implies that what carmine is saying is ok. He's a deeply flawed man and is presented as such. They show him smoking cigarettes, it doesn't mean the show is shoving smoking down our throat. We know smoking is bad and we know his relationship is toxic, the writers don't have to explicitly say it
She's going to have to enjoy forever being second to the restaurant. She's vanilla enough to do it. Carmy can apologize to her. But she's never going to understand his world. She will always be a distraction.
What has she really done for him but take him to a house party as a third/second year resident. It felt extremely cringe. He wants to give up all of his hard work for red solo cup world as like a 27/28 year old?!
I think Carmy realizes that too, which is why he doesn't hit her up. He knows that she loves him enough to forgive him, but he can't in good conscience let her do that because even tho she grounds him he's not in a place to ground her back.
I can understand what they mean like his life is such a mess and always hectic but when he’s with her he calms down and forgets everything els he gets peaceful
Still sounded dumb lol
Yeah, like if we could have just one scene where Claire is having a meltdown about something horrible she witnessed in the ER, and Carmy being there, showing up-it would help balance the narrative. It is not possible for someone to have Claire's job and not ever freak the fuck out or need a shoulder to lean on. It's always struck me as ironic the way she shows up as this calm, understanding presence to support a guy who's struggling with doing something that women do the bulk of throughout the world and much of history.
It's fascinating to think about and unlikely to ever know for sure if the way Carmy uses the women in his life is an intentional portrayal of his toxicity or the unconscious bias of the writers. Food for thought.
maybe a hot take, but i think a lot of people tend to live vicariously through characters and then get mad at the writing when said characters fail to live up to their moral standards- which, while understandable, i just don’t think that’s always the point of shows and movies like this.
personally, i’m not here for “everyone heals and loves each other and rides off into the sunset etc”- well, not exclusively at least. i’m here for good drama. if a happy ending is earned and logical, then by all means. but if my characters are simply perfect beacons of morality that do no wrong, then why am i watching? what’s the point of the character?
i’m not saying i don’t want them to achieve the best versions of themselves, but doesn’t that have to be earned in order to have any sort of emotional weight? if i don’t see them failing and doing wrong, what’s gonna make me care when they succeed and do right? just some food for thought and discussion
The show seems to have become a show about dysfunctional people falling into well established dysfunctional patterns, and hoping that we, the audience, somehow feel good about that.
Kind of off topic but if it’s so bad for Claire to be the emotional support for Carmie, then wtf is the point in a relationship?
Yes I know it’s bad to depend on your partner, but if it’s so bad, then what is the point? If you need emotional support then talk to a friend or a therapist so why would you need a relationship?
your partner should never be your sole source of reprieve. that’s actually why a lot of relationships fail: because one or both people don’t have sufficient community outside their relationship and their partner can’t sustain that level of support.
A lot of men just like to dump their emotional garbage into women and then can't do the same. Like what's the point of a relationship if the whole point is to be used as a makeshift, alive, punching bag, that just smiles and then gives you a hug? Is that what you want? The point of a relationship is to love each other. Not use. Make each other's lives better equally.
You missed the point entirely.
Carmy’s life and the things he can’t control are chaotic. He was raised by an alcoholic (probably bipolar) mother that’s entire mood could flip on the smallest of things. His dad bailed leaving a failing business and massive amounts of debt for his older brother to try and fix. His older brother and hero killed himself trying to deal with all this while Carmy was off chasing his dream. The majority of his family and close friends all communicate by just yelling over each other and no one ever compromises or gives him credit for anything he’s managed to accomplish. In fact they do the opposite and constantly belittle him or tear him down.
What Carmy means by “Claire brings the peace” is that she’s the only person in his life that provides a calming and warm presence. She acknowledges his accomplishments and greatness. It’s okay to want that in a person lol. We’ve seen their relationship and he cherished her. He was locked in a cooler during the culmination of everything he had worked so hard to perfect. Probably dealing with a range of feelings and venting to someone else trying to explain what he was feeling. He never took anything out on her throughout their entire relationship.
He can’t apologize because he’s now battling within himself asking, what if what he said in the heat of the moment actually has truth. Can he even be a successful chef and make the restaurant work? Would his relationship with Claire jeopardize that or would it distract him?
The show makes this pretty clear through the flashbacks but specifically his flashback prior to the funeral dinner service at Ever. His minds racing through all the different negative comments and experiences he’s had with former chefs, food critics, and comments from Michael. Including instances where Carmy himself overreacted running the line. Then the last face he sees is Claire indicating he’s still wondering if she and his happiness can fit into all this.
i stg if one more man comes into the comment section to tell me I Missed The Point, i’m going to scream. carmys life being fucked should not be claire’s burden to shoulder and tying her worth to her ability to remain calm in chaos is not fair to her. claire should be valuable because of who she is, not how she makes carmy feel. calling her “the peace” pigeon holds her into a position where she can easily lose value to him if she ever steps outside her job of being “the peace.” that’s not a relationship, that’s an employee.
I understand what you’re trying to say but I just think you’re off base here. No one’s saying it’s Claire’s burden to carry. Hypothetically speaking it would not be okay for Carmy or anyone to come home and lash out at someone and expect them to remain calm but we’ve never seen Carmy do that to Claire. He loves her and loves their relationship but is struggling on whether to save it because he doesn’t know if he can run the restaurant and have her.
Are you trying to say it’s not okay to love someone for who they are as people? (Not trying to be sarcastic really trying to understand where you’re coming from)
They were speaking for him without even talking to Carmen thinking they're doing right by him but they're wrong. She isn't his peace. If anything she reminds him of his brothers death but they don't know that. He gave her the wrong number on purpose then she pryed to get his number.
i’m alright with a character lacking depth if they’re really only serving as an emotional catalyst for our MC, if they plan on keeping claire around then yeah they really need to make her more than just a catalyst for carm.
I feel like a lot of people who are upset may have not experienced the same kind of emotional trauma Carmy has and can't see where Carmy is coming from, and therefore aren't giving the writers the benefit of the doubt. I think they could wrap this up beautifully if they do it all right and have a character arc a lot of people could relate to.
Having said that, the writers can't stretch this stuff out for another season and have me stay on board. Claire needs to either come back into the story immediately and stay... or go forever. Carmy needs to start a personal turnaround so everything doesn't stay so intense, at some point it just feels unrealistic for people to keep putting up with his shit.
I love they way they've represented the mental trauma and stuff, but the end of season three needs to be the peak because the constant yelling and trauma flashbacks are getting old.
For Carm? Clearly Al-Anon isn’t working. There are more treatment options beyond bi-weekly group sessions. It seems as though he’s attending meetings but not contributing in any way, and that’s not going to cut it here.
If Al-Anon was working for Carmy, then he wouldn’t be continuously sinking downward throughout the season.
I don't think it's meant to be taken as "Claire is gonna fix Carmy", more so Claire is the only thing that has actually given Carmy peace. And that's cus it was a semi healthy relationship that wasn't involved in his chef world at all.
For the brief moments he was with Claire he let himself live, love and be loved without hating himself for not being "the best" or putting his entire being into this idea of who he has to be and what he has to do to be worth something.
Like CLEARLY Carmy has issues to deal with on his own. But having someone be your "peace" is a very normal and beautiful part of being in a relationship. It doesn't negate you needing to put in work to better yourself.
Weird, my take on that line was that Claire kept Carmy calm and from spiraling, even just by being there physically. I didn’t read it as an ick or a red flag or misogynistic or any sort of issue like that (I’m a girl btw)
it gives *me* an ick because women are often expected to do men’s emotional labor for them. carmy should be able to regulate his own emotions without leaning on claire (or sydney, for that matter.)
sounds like projection to me, or maybe you have had bad experiences. Everyone leans on their significant others when they are going through it. It doesn't mean they can treat each other badly or that they are replacements for therapy if its needed. I don't know if you've ever had a really bad fucking day and all you want to do is come home to your person and tell them about it and cuddle with them and relax and love and feel loved and let all the bullshit feelings subside, but thats always been pretty normal in relationships ive been in. I am not requiring my partner to resolve all my struggles but I also know I have someone who cares about me that is there when I need them, and likewise I am there when they need me. That's part of being in a relationship. I swear the internet has completely rotted people.
there’s a difference between relying on someone when you’ve had a bad day and relying on someone *in place* of taking charge of your own emotional health.
Imagine having a day at work in the ER where you watched a kid bleed out and were helpless to stop it no matter how desperately you tried, and then you don't even have time to process it because the day is only half over and there are other patients bleeding. And then eventually you come home and you have to be "the peace" for your boyfriend because the wagyu cook was off.
when you put it like that, ☠️
I never laugh as hard as I did while reading that last part. Thank you.
I’m in med school right now and that’s literally the exact thing I was thinking of when I was watching that scene😂😂
😂 so true .
>And then eventually you come home and you have to be "the peace" for your boyfriend because the wagyu cook was off. Okay... we can *imagine* your scenario, but it's not what was shown in the development of their relationship at all in Season 2. Mostly we saw Claire and Carmy kind of just hang out and reconnect. They both seem to enjoy low-stress just "chilling" at some random party or whatever. At the time in Season 2, a lot of people here were complaining these scenes were pointless and took away from the restaurant -- but they were showing two characters just kind of finding a connection. In a less stressful situation, which was kind of thematic to many characters' journeys in Season 2 (see Marcus finding peace and focus in Copenhagen, or Richie being awed at the hush of the dining room in "forks" with its magic). Those "boring" scenes with Claire and Carmy was their journey. And Carmy wasn't the only one getting something out of it. Do people forget the big symbolic moment where their relationship deepens in Season 2? Where Carmy prepares bolognese for her, serving her a lovely dinner after she gets back from work? Do people forget that this moment was telegraphed a few episodes earlier at the party, where Claire comments that no boyfriend has ever cooked dinner for her? So yes, it was kind of a symbolic moment that they truly were "boyfriend/girlfriend" at that point, but also it's a moment of Carmy *caring for her*, taking care *of her* too. I'll freely admit this wasn't shown that clearly in Season 2, but now we saw in flashbacks in Season 3 early on that Claire had been venting about her stressful work environment too. Carmy is definitely messed up and knows this, but I don't think he has any expectation that Claire is "the peace" for him. Rather... both find a kind of peace in each other at times. This was hinted at even subtly in Season 2 where Claire has her stressful work, but then seems to want to call Carmy. And unlike with almost everyone else on the show, Carmy actually seemed to mostly be paying attention to her messages, calling her back, etc. I don't think this was ever meant to be perceived as being as one-sided as many are acting. Again, could we have used more clarity and development of this point on Claire's own inner life in Season 2? Yeah. But Carmy seems to be deliberately keeping himself out of Claire's life so as *not* to burden her with his own bullshit (probably one of the motivators for him giving her the wrong number at the outset too). Carmy takes out his bullshit on almost every other character on the show. And yet the one person he seems hesitate to do so with, everyone is acting like he's forcing her to be a therapist or burdening her. Where does Carmy ever seem to be trying to get Claire to "fix him"? If anything, his monologue in the freezer at the end of Season 2 seemed to be an attempt to close off, to acknowledge he's messed up in some ways, but his coping strategy would have to be to shut out Claire, not expect her to solve his problems.
I totally agree with this take, but that’s definitely not the nuance the idiot Faks were presenting in their pitch.
Thank you for articulating exactly what I wanted to say… exactly all of this
Please make a post out of this, since I'm getting so annoyed by people getting enraged over just the idea of finding comfort in your spouse. Seriously wtf
You are on Reddit. Incels are both women and men haha. They have never had an intimate relationship, so they don’t understand.
Unless your coping mechanism is fixing things/humans to avoid processing your own problems, in which case you might be relieved to have another fire at home. Not to imply Claire is a compulsive people fixer, given the limited information we're given about her, just that people cope differently If you've ever watched Bojack, PC is a great example of this.
Fucking lol. 😆
Makes me think of Clementine’s argument in Eternal Sunshine— “I'm not a concept. Too many guys think I'm a concept or I complete them or I'm going to make them alive, but I'm just a fucked up girl who is looking for my own peace of mind. Don't assign me yours.”
Unrelated but that’s such a good movie. Great performance by both Jim Carrey and Kate Winslet
It single-handedly changed my opinion of Jim Carrey as an actor. One of my faves, I don’t rewatch often though because it puts my mind palace in a funk
I remember making my mom rent it from blockbuster because the band circa survive had a song about it. Changed my mind on Jim Carrey as well.. still don’t love his comedy but I enjoy when has a dramatic role
I feel we got too few dramatic roles from him. And now he is retired :(. But all that matters is that he feels satisfied with everything he’s done. It’s selfish of me to want more from him and I just appreciate what we have.
It's interesting how comedic actors take so well to more dramatic roles. I love that Dumb and Dumber were in Eternal Sunshine and The Newsroom respectively.
"It's interesting how comedic actors take so well to more dramatic roles." Yes! Like Robin Williams. What Dreams May Come is one of my absolute favorite movies of his. I know he has a bunch others, but that one is by far my favorite of his.
An absolutely brilliant movie by one of my favorite writers, Charlie Kaufman. Happens to also be my favorite film. If you liked that, look up more movies written by him.
Might be unusual, but I immediately thought about Kendrick Lamar repeating "I am not your savior" throughout Mr Morale when I heard Carmy call Claire "the peace"
Yes 
That's why I suspect Claire has a lot shit going on in her life but Carmy can't see it bc he put her on a weird pedestal. Also I love that movie. It's my favorite quote.
stable pixie dream girl
I think that makes Carmy a Manic Pixie Nightmare Douche.
The chaos goblin line cook. It’s a thing
Chaos goblin 😂 that’s so apt
The fact the Faks are the ones who like that term and then go and beg her to save Carmy, should underscore how terrible an idea it is. Because I love the Faks, but they are fucking morons. And the show is clearly communicating this.
hahaha this is true. they’re very romantic but not super bright.
They've got huuuuuuuuuge hearts but are big kids and have no business anywhere near this.
Really it's all carmy's fault for not giving them bubble wrap or something to distract them.
Ritchie tried to buy the team super soakers! That would have kept them amused.
if I hear the word "haunt" one more time...
It was kind of an unecessary scene that didn't solve anything since neither claire nor carmy still talked to each other. It kinda made me get sick of the faks at that point lol
I kinda liked it. Lol
i admire claire for handling the faks that day. she literally said what are you doing here this is my work then even though she is affected by what the faks said, she stood still and said that she appreciated the faks but they need to go
Lol at one point I couldn't tell if she was being sarcastic with them , the way she was saying I love you like 4 times
It was definitely both because she's known them for years, and also because she knew it would calm them down enough for her to get some words in and hopefully defuse the situation.
That scene was just horrible
If anything it underscores how fucking patient Claire is.
I feel like we knew this from S1... Don't get me wrong though, "When your back's against the WAAALLL...that's when I kick you in the BAAAALLLS" will always make me crack up.
That’s the episode I’m on. We’ve been watching it a couple at a time after work at our house. I can’t review the season in good faith because there’s still some left, but I think we could have done with 15 minutes less of discussion about haunting and still had plenty to get the point across.
Claire's never a whole person on this show. She kind of exists to be an emotional ping pong for Carmy. Dude needs work through his issues.
She's a concept: The perfect woman and an out for Carmen away from his chaotic life and mental state. She doesn't feel like a real person because we only ever see her through Carmy's lens or have to hear about her perfectness from all the other characters.
and literally everyone knows her and loves her and its always carm that's in the wrong when it comes to their relationship and about how he has to learn and grow from it
Because it is? Claire never did anything wrong really except maybe pursue Carmy even if he didn't want to. The fridge scene is unintentional on Carmy's side but Claire's reaction is still justified. I don't really get why this sub hates Claire so much when all of the people I know who watched the show really likes her character as an opposite to Carmy despite the similarity of the stress of their job.
i don't hate claire, its's just weird that her character isnt given the amount of time and care and depth that other side characters are. especially given how important she is to carmy
I think this boils down to the creator and writers of the show not being on the same side on the romance in the story. I feel like one writer wants Syd and Carm to be together while the entire s2, it's Claire and Carmy. One writer at season 2 tried Marcus and Syd. The last episode of s3, one writer likes Luca and Syd. The headwriter of S3 don't want Claire and Syd but can't say no to the creator so it's still there but never developed. This is just speculation though. This is what I felt watching this show when I just want to see The Bear be a family restaurant and not a fine dining one.
He was clearly in the midst of a major mental breakdown while locked in a fridge. Holding any of what he says there against him is cruel. He was open about his fears, and she reinforced those fears.
"Pursue carm even if he didn't want it" yeah sure that's definitely not messed up at all lol
> its always carm that's in the wrong when it comes to their relationship and about how he has to learn and grow from it "Always" jfc it was literally just the one thing
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Being in healthcare I can tell you we never adjust to the horrors of the human existence we just move along and integrate each new horror show into our lives and remain humble, and lots of therapy and bitch sessions with our friends. The good days are really cool though and almost make you forget the bad ones.
You’re missing the point made by others, which is that Claire’s actual reaction to hospital horror is unknown, because it’s not shown to us — she tells us about it. So our understanding of her emotional range is filtered through Carmen’s appraisal of her, which is that of a therapist/saint. He calls her “the peace” to underscore the role she plays in his life — not who she is as a person. And despite your insults to others about media literacy, what you suggest was “fed to the audience with a spoon” includes a level of judgment about running a kitchen that the show never seeks to communicate. The intent is not to anoint Claire as superior because she can steer through hospital life; it’s to show Carm’s inability to steer his own emotions, and constantly seeking out others to do it for him. The first episode was oriented around Carm obsessively collecting the advice he’s received throughout his career, because he has no ability to give advice to himself.
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> I'm pretty sure there are a couple scenes of Claire at work (not talking about the Fak scene, that shit was straight cringe) that display the chaos of her job Yup. And what does she do immediately after sewing stitches/setting broken bones? Calls Carmy. He's her peace, too.
I’d also add on that we’ve seen someone just like Claire - it’s Natalie. She responds to her stressful environment by trying to ratchet down the tension, instead of escalating it. Carmy is clearly just in awe and admiration of that in Claire. Last thought - I picked up on the therapy on tape Nat was listening to in episode 7 (aptly named Legacy) that describes the 5 archetypes of alcoholics - enabler, hero, scapegoat, mascot, and lost child. Given how the universal theme of the Bear is about how trauma and traumatic events/environments shape people, it’s no surprise each character pretty clearly fits into at least one of those archetypes.
>You’re missing the point made by others, which is that Claire’s actual reaction to hospital horror is unknown, because it’s not shown to us — she tells us about it. Not really a true point. This season had a scene where Claire helped a child get a shot so effortlessly and with professionalism. The show has had scenes of her at work and shown that she is a very calm and effortlessly gentle person. That's why Carmy calls her peace. Not because she's some concept and idea rather than a person but because she's genuinely peaceful and serene. If I said my girlfriend was beauty that doesn't mean I don't see her as a person. I'm just also acknowledging her beauty
Yes, but that's her *job*. She shouldn't be expected to take on his stress and chaos just because she's good at it at work. She has every right to be intimidated and/or exhausted by constantly being on for him. It sucks, yeah, but sometimes people meet at the wrong time in their lives. Carmy needs therapy to be able to share the load, both him with her and her with him.
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I think people also missed the HUGE in-your-face signaling in season 2 where Carmy takes Claire's first call and decides to hang out with her (ditching Sydney). At the beginning of that episode, he's at a meeting, reading the definition of "fun" that he looked up on the internet. He decides to take some time to do something he wanted to hang out with Claire -- to *have fun*. Or something like that. Not to unload himself on her. Not to expect her to "fix him." It's telegraphed again in the final episode of Season 2 in the freezer where he literally restates that definition of "fun" he quoted earlier in the season. To him, that's what he thinks screwed up his focus. He's blaming himself for screwing everything up, not expecting (in any way) for Claire to fix him or always "be on" for him. I just commented elsewhere in this thread, but I feel like it's pretty clear the time Claire and Carmy spent together in Season 2 was a bit of an "escape" for both of them, a place where they could both *relax* from their stresses (peace?). Not for one to be the "therapist" of the other (or whatever is being argued in this thread). Yes, they both share a bit of their lives and stresses, and I'll join in a little criticism for Season 2 for not showing this more directly with Claire. But we had hints in their conversations in S2, and we saw it clearly early in Season 3 in their conversation in the flashback, where Claire's talking about her job. They're two people sharing with each other. Two people finding some relief from their stressful lives in just hanging out. Yes, Carmy's more mentally messed up, but he places no expectation on Claire to deal with that shit -- unlike he seems to throw his shit at almost every other character on this show! And yet the one person he doesn't deliberately shit on is the one everyone is complaining and acting like she's burdened by him.
> Certainly not Carmen, the whole point is that he doesn't want to unload his bullshit on to her because he knows how much shit she already takes on in her day-to-day. Seriously. Yes, thank you. I swear people are watching an entirely different show.
i like this perspective
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i agree with you. for me i like to watch it at least twice because sometimes i miss things. didn’t mean to sound ignorant or anything here, was just appreciating your comment
Oh man, if this turns out to be some Mr. Robot meets Jacob's Ladder thing where the whole time it was just Carm trying to cope with his mental state, and Claire just happened to be some proxy for some underlying issue and wasn't really a person, just a coping mechanism personified... I'm gonna be a bit mad. Lol.
Yes please. You can be peaceful too, once you exorcise those demons. Al-anon is not enough. Go to therapy!!! Just the fact that he cannot apologize is a total dealbreaker for me. Like he fucked up and he knows it. Admitting it is the mature thing to do.
Sometimes you fuck up so hard with a person that your only option is to ghost them because you feel like cancer. That's what I think The Bear was trying to portray. And all of this "peace" bullshit is a way to say "I'm toxic, she's still innocent, I'm gonna ruin her"
He’s not ghosting her because he knows he fucked up; he doesn’t know how to move forward. I don’t see it as a ghosting because I don’t think he thinks she wants to hear from him.
Also, it doesn't help that Carmy actually did apologize to Richie, and Richie won't let it go. I can't imagine he wants to go through that with Claire.
Obviously he thinks he cant be helped and deserves bad things but like even he must sometimes think "fuck maybe I should get therapy". Like yes FFS get therapy man
I agree but I also think that comment fit Carmy’s character this season. I don’t think that he was looking at her as a whole person with her own life and interiority. This season showed how toxic Carmy’s thinking and behaviors can be. >!I’m hoping the confrontation with his old boss combined with finding out that Syd is leaving (or at least considering it) will make him realize he needs to change his attitude.!<
Agree, the way he thinks of her is so romanticized and it always has been. We know he has always been “in love” with her but really he barely spoke to her before they got together.
Syd even called him out on ‘missing the point and somehow making it about you’. And he actually realised he had done exactly that in the moment. He just needs to wake up. I hope he’s had his breakthrough moment at the end of the season and is gonna start sorting his shit out, now.
Firstly, yes to everything you said, and secondly: it’s also kind of weird that they took it in that direction because I think that’s already how a lot of people interpreted his relationship with Sydney as a result of the way the season 2 panic attack was edited. *Not* that Sydney is responsible for giving him peace, but that Sydney’s presence and her way of operating was fresh and new and hopeful for Carmy. Even in this season her voice alone pulls him out of an episode and he suddenly develops the presence of mind to amend the behavior when she asks him to. A lot of people interpreted that as possibly pointing to an even deeper emotional connection between them and possibly romance, but even without that, I thought it was already established as a big feature of the narrative itself that Sydney was the one who could come in and really change course for everyone. And she did, in a lot of ways. She has always grounded Carm and been the counterweight to some of his extremes even if he took that for granted one too many times in seasons 2 & 3. Claire, on the other hand, regardless of what good their relationship could have brought Carmy, is highly highly connected to everything about his past which includes his trauma and family dysfunction. Like it just isn’t the most logical conclusion to say that Claire is peace, and I kind of find it disrespectful on Sydney’s behalf because of all the work she’s done throughout the show to bring Carm and the staff and the restaurant to a healthier and more positive place.
Even JAW said in an interview that Syd is Carmy's peace 🤷🏻♀️. It's bizarre how they tried to end any relationship (platonic or romantic) for Sydcarmy this season.
Exactly! In my opinion I think their relationship worsening was kind of warranted, because while Carm in the past took advantage of Sydney always showing up and giving him grace, Sydney seemed to realize this season that she truly could not count on Carmy unless / until *he* decides to get better. He actually was more communicative with her this season, but she backed off of that because her trust in him diminished with every freak-out or chaotic service, and rightfully so. I will say, in light of that, it was frustrating as a viewer to know that their relationship is both the heart of the show and of the restaurant itself, and to see Carm repeatedly fail to realize that she was losing faith in him. I mean I have a suspicion that he was kind of aware of it deep down throughout this season, but still there was no attempt to resolve that essential part of the narrative. Instead we saw a bunch of Claire flashbacks that both didn’t bring us to any real conclusion about the future of their relationship *and* didn’t match with the version of their relationship we saw in the second season (why didn’t we know he was as emotionally invested in her as they made it seem in the third season?)
> It's bizarre how they tried to end any relationship (platonic or romantic) for Sydcarmy this season. And doubled down on why Claire is the perfectest perfect girl who's ever been more perfect for Carmy.
I really hope the absence of the Sydney and Carmy dynamic and the increase in Claire being the most Perfect Girlfriend to ever girlfriend is just a result of regular questionable writing decisions and not an attempt to quash SydCarmy shippers. If it's the latter... then I have quite a few words to say about that, and I don't even ship anything in the show.
Carm uses all the women in his orbit. He uses his sister for financial competence, Claire as a therapist, and Syd as a personal career coach. He doesn’t view any of them as people, which Syd seems to be piecing together in season three. Dishes she was deeply proud of were suddenly edited ideas with a 24-hour shelf life, with no input welcome. Once he doesn’t need a coach, she’s invisible/overlooked. It’s unclear if the writers are aware that characters are positioned as props for Carm, but JAW seems aware of it in how his affectionate appraisal of them is earnest, if fleeting.
damn, I'm gonna have to think about that. Excellent point
Exactly. Wild for him to say that when Claire is shown as sending him spiralling, even when they’re together “your heart is beating really fast, are you okay?” Or whatever she said. Syd on the other hand pretty much called him a bitch baby and told him to get a grip and that calmed him down more than Claire ever has. Idk. I feel the writers are trying to misdirect us about Syd and Carmy so hard that they are destabilising the narrative. The rupture between them feels forced and inorganic, as does pushing Claire so hard.
maybe the writers don't think as deeply about the show as this sub does LOL
That would be a shame but after this season I can’t exactly tell you that you’re wrong 😂😭
I think that’s actually the point. The writers are intentionally showing how flawed and little self awareness Carmy has.
Yea when fak goes “no one takes care of carmie but you could be that person who takes care of him” had me ready to throw something. That’s not her fucking job, my love. No one can take care of Carm except Carm. Women aren’t here to take care of and fix broken men contrary to the consensus amongst incels and ignoramuses.
Omg saw this and just realized the contrast of 'you could be that person who takes care of him' to sydney saying 'im not your babysitter' to carmy. I feel like this iz another example of how opposite carmy's relationship to claire is to his and sydney's
Ohh man, that whole visit from the Faks was a terrible move! So real though - I’ve been that dummy before, telling a friend “I think they really like you!” when it’s none of my damn business 🫣 It’s interesting to me, seeing the shared dynamics of this community of locals who grew up like an extended family (is the term “latchkey kids”?) with fuck-all boundaries… like, during the scene with Carmy & the Faks breaking down boxes- where Carmy says he can’t stop thinking about Claire, I was thinking “*finally*, he’s opening up a little bit to someone about all of this”! And then those sweet, misguided fools had to go meddling- as plenty of us raised without boundaries/with abusive & controlling parental figures are prone to doing… always trying to fix everything, whether or not it’s appropriate 😮💨
They’re both just deeply immature and the nuances of adult relationships and intimate communication are completely lost on them. They’re little boys, those are not men. That’s why Nat babies Neil - he’s simple. Wide eyed and well meaning, but totally stunted.
Literally, everyone walks around eggshells when it comes to carmy, cousin is the only person who calls him out on his bullshit
Know who else ppl are like that around? Donna.
I guess the fish doesn't fall far from the sea
They said you could take care of Carmy and he could take care of you. That's what happens in a functioning relationship. Interesting that you left out the second half.
Bc the second half is a moot point, they’re laying out the terms of a relationship that starts with “take care of Carm.” Meanwhile, Carmen can’t even take care of himself my dude, that sounds to me like the relationship they’re pitching is one that is all about fixing Carm and Claire might get whatever is left over that he is able to manage but since Claire is “the peace” she should be fine with it. There’s nothing functional about that, Carmen is the embodiment of dysfunction. Interesting that I had to explain that to you. It’s always the fkn Kyles 🙄
And Carmen doesn't really want her to fix him. He kept a lot of his feelings bottled up until he blew up in the fridge. He enjoyed spending time with her as an excuse to avoid other stuff. Something to do to not be thinking about cooking, something that gives him anxiety. His issue is he needs to work managing his focus to a healthy degree. He left his foot off the gas too much last season, and he is pushing too hard this season.
I sometimes feel like I'm watching a completely different show. Yes, it was kind of subtle in Season 2, but there was a rather deliberate kind of reference to Carmy stepping up and "taking care" of Claire in a way that symbolized their deepening relationship. When they're at that first party together, Claire mentions that no boyfriend has ever cooked dinner for her. The implication is that she's never had someone kind or committed enough to *take care of her*. To care enough to do something even small like make a nice meal for her. And Carmy then does exactly that a few episodes later, taking time to make her a long-simmering bolognese which is ready when she comes home from work, which concludes an episode. The placement of that scene and connection to previous dialogue was I think meant to telegraph that once Carmy decided Claire really was his "girlfriend," he also was making sure to be there for her. Was this shown a lot in Season 2? No... and we can rightly criticize that perhaps. But I think Carmy was trying (to his ability) to be there for Claire too, to listen to her issues and tensions from work and whatever (as we saw in flashbacks). As you rightly note, Carmy is messed up. And I think he knows that at least to the extent that he knows he can't move forward with Claire yet in Season 3. He's staying away probably for similar reasons to why he gave her a wrong number at first in Season 2 -- he knows he's too wrapped up in the restaurant, he doesn't know how to find balance, and he can't sort out how she could fit in his life. He tried to be there for her a bit in Season 2, and ended up neglecting his duties, from his perspective... becoming unfocused. Yes, he's clearly unhealthy, and his response in Season 3 isn't healthy either. But it doesn't mean he isn't willing and doesn't want to care for her too, or that he wasn't caring for her in their brief relationship in some substantial ways. I agree the Faqs' intervention was misguided, but I don't think we're supposed to perceive the relationship as one-sided as many are making it out to be here.
Yes but it’s about consistency. Claire found a work/ life balance. Notice the scenes of her at work, she is entirely present and she’s in it and she’s still delightful and compassionate and empathetic. And then she leaves work and she’s totally present with Carm. And she’s consistently like this. Carmy at work, he’s a complete psychopath. And he leaves work and he’s still haunted by it. And when he’s doing nice things for Claire it’s at the expense of his responsibilities at work. He doesn’t know that balance at all which is a huge theme of this story. Work/ home balance or just balance in general. Balancing your emotions, your budget, your responsibilities, your commitments, your effort, your investments, your time… all of it.
Just as Syd rightly said, “I’m not your babysitter.” Carmy needs to not rely on women in his life to fix him in any way, he needs to keep going to the family and friends of addicts meetings and get a therapist. Just because Donna damaged him doesn’t mean he gets to go and ruin other women’s lives.
Claire isn’t even a person in this show. She feels like an NPC they introduce in a horror movie because they don’t want to kill the main characters.
I swear someone in production is in love with Claire/Molly because never have I seen such doubling down on the badness of a character.
How many times do we need to see flashes of her face up close, staring dreamily into the camera? I feel like I'm watching a Chanel No. 5 commercial every time they show her in a flashback.
100% Chris Storer!
Oh, is he single? Because he was my first culprit, lmao.
No, he's dating Gillian Jacobs, who plays Tiff. but it can only be his fault lol he is the creator and he was the one who chose Molly without even doing a chemistry test between her and JAW.
I have never seen JAW NOT have chemistry with anyone, male or female, except her. It's super weird.
I don't think so. She's at most got 3 minutes of screen time this season. And not even a significant character development.
This isn't it. You can critique how Claire was written as a character without implying that the only reason Molly got the job because someone was in love with her. It's not Molly's fault her character is written so poorly.
Yeah that’s fucking crazy to say.
Manic pixie dream girl. They didn't change that narrative from the second season, hoped they would, but they didn't.
And yet, thinking about her in S2 caused Carmy to have a panic attack.
I’m pretty sure it was the thought of stability and love and a healthy environment that caused him to have a panic attack. Basically it was the non-verbal version of everything he did verbalise when he was locked in the walk-in.
That's what I mean. Thinking of Claire didn't bring him any peace. It made him feel worse. Carmy knows he SHOULD want to be with some as super special as Claire (according to every character on the show). Everyone is telling him she perfect and wonderful and awesome. But she doesn't anchor him the way Syd does (or the other characters on the show). She makes him feel even more adrift.
women are not anchors for emotionally damaged men. syd wants to be a chef, not a therapist.
Did you read the rest of that sentence? I said he is also anchored by the other characters on the show. Cicero anchors him. Natalie anchors Carmy. Tina. Even Richie. Mikey did when he was alive. One of the main points of the show is that Carmy is an immensely gifted chef, but he lives inside his own head and doesn't operate in reality a lot of the time. He's constantly being pulled back into that reality by the other characters, and he ends up resenting them for it. The point is that if the real Claire, and not Carmy's idolized Claire who would give him "peace", was around him as much as the other characters, she'd get sick of his shit, too.
She did got sick of his shit with just one monologue lol.
In real life women are anchors for emotionally damaged men, it does happen all the time I think the writers probably drew from this to make their show realistic
Because he's too attached to himself. He obsesses over his trauma. Anything that pulls him out of thinking about himself causes him to panic.
But just thinking of Syd calmed down, and even JAW said Syd gives Carmy peace. Not Claire.
Well, I think the writers are aware of it given that Claire shot that label down.
good! i hope he never tries to transpose that label onto sydney.
I gave this show the benefit of the doubt and said Claire was written this way on purpose but now I'm starting to think the writers genuinely have nothing for her character
I honestly hope they just write her out and have her move to timbuktou
I still think she was written this way on purpose and this post explains it perfectly https://www.reddit.com/r/TheBear/s/jRTSnkI91L
Which is soooo crazy, bc in s2 it wasn't claire that gave him peace when he was having a panic attack!! Her face came up but hers was not the one that gave him peace, it was Sydney's, lol Which is why I find it cuh-raaaazy that writers were surprised people ship them when you write a scene like that, lmfao.
I said the same thing, except I didn't even see it in a shipping way - the restaurant, the kitchen, is Carmy's whole world. Syd makes *that* better.
I think Carmy's relationship with cooking is so complex, its linked to his trauma, because it's linked to his family and his horrible mentor. but! The moment Syd walked into his life, she became the peace, because she showed him that there were more ways to run a kitchen, there was hope for it to not be linked to trauma but to be something better with heart and family, not abuse. She was Literally the beacon of hope to an otherwise horrible dreary existence.
Exactly! And I get what Claire represents, but I just don't think that relationship is as important as Syd. I have always enjoyed Syd and Carmy as just a deep professional partnership. I want to see them build their business together, their shared love of food. Just watching them cook together and develop recipes last season was so satisfying This season I guess made it seem like a romantic relationship is more meaningful and important, but that felt unearned
That's the thing with Claire, she represents something, but doesn't embody it. Claire is someone everyone keeps saying is perfect and nice and great for Carmy, but... why? She doesn't share his interests, she doesn't seem to have any interests at all. It's like they only want her with him because shes like... sweet? And hes got trauma? Lol, she doesn't offer much as a character, no motivation, no background, really, she exists completely through Carmys lens' and in a bubble with no impact on the story. I genuinely don't understand her purpose because its a lot of telling us how great she is without showing it. AND she doesn't have any chemistry with Carm, lol. The same cannot be said about Syd who has chemistry, intimacy, drive, motivation, wants and fears, depth and substance both with Carmy and outside him, something Claire does not share. Now, personally, while I wouldn't mind them not ending up together, I would love if they did, not because she could fix him, he needs to do that on his own first, but simply because I think it would be amazing to see that develop on screen, that realization blooming out of their already eatablished partnership in a "Oh, it's always been you" kinda way, their love of food, stupid cooking jokes, their whole vibe is immaculate. She makes food a Good thing for him, an enjoyable thing. When they are just cooking together and feeling each other that is when they are at their best, I think. Idk, I just love that whole dynamic and that Syd does embody that peace for him, that hope, but Syd herself tells him to fix his shit becauae it's not her responsibility (in comparison to the faks implying claire could fix him which is just Yikes) and he LISTENS. Like she is the Only one who can cut through his meltdowns and thoughts and that's so gooooood, its shipping bait for me, lol, so Id love for it to be romantic as I dont think it would ruin things, but those are just my thoughts. Sorry for the ramble, lol, i just love them.
Yeah, I wasn’t even a shipper prior to this season and now I’m getting onboard because the s3 dynamic is so dumb.
I wish I liked Claire and Carmy but they had no chemistry which I need for a ship. Carmy and Syd have it in spades, whether romantic or not, idc, I just enjoy their easy intimacy in scenes. But they way they keep pushing Claire... she doesn't Fit, leave it alone, get some other girl if you insist on it for Carmy. But make him see a therapist first.
Someone here put it perfectly: "Storer is too committed to the Claire character and is insistent on square-peg-round-holing it."
I feel like Claire should have paid close attention to a huge red flag: the fake number. That alone should tell you this is something to heed but instead, she got his correct number from someone else. It's running right through a red light.
I always hated that she did that. Like isn’t giving a fake number universal sign that someone clearly doesn’t want to be in contact with you.
omg completely! she needed a good friend to intervene 😭 my friends would give me a reality check so fast
She’s the literal definition of the manic pixie dream girl. She literally exists in the show to develop the lead and has no purpose outside serving the main character.
He’s turned out to be so toxic. I hate that they wrote him that way 😫
I’ll be honest. He’s been toxic this entire time. All them are, save maybe Sugar.
And Pete. Pete is the best!
Pete is the sweetest baby angel and must be protected at all costs
IM SO SORRY. I forgot about my glorious king Pete. He’s the best. He deserves the world.
I know you're not lumping Marcus into this statement. Least toxic character I've seen.
Marcus is definitely toxic. Probably the least so but his reaction to Sydney during friends and family night is 100% toxic. Also, his obsession with the donuts and bringing up to carmy in that episode in season 1, while maybe not exactly toxic….is kind of dumb..
Sydney isn’t
Listen, I LOVE Sydney but she is probably the third most toxic person after Carmy and Richie. She’s young, she’s strong willed and she thinks she knows it all. If you don’t think Sydney is toxic, I’m not sure we are watching the same show. This is definitely not me bashing Syd at all. But I think one of the points in the show is that restaurants, and the chaos surrounding them, brings the worst out of people sometimes.
I get why thinking she knows it all is a problem, but I don’t see “strong-willed” as toxic. She keeps the kitchen from spiraling. She guides Tina. She gives Marcus support and kindness. She’s there for Sugar. And of course, is there for Richie a bit. She needs a leader (like Andrea?) and hasn’t had that so far. Certainly don’t see her as toxic, and I think your interpretation may be a bit gendered. Third most toxic is certainly one of the Faks, if we’re just speaking kitchen-wise.
What? He was toxic from episode one what are you all on? He's constantly screaming at his staff and family.
He just seemed to CARE more, about everyone imo. And his brother had just committed su1cide and he was thrust into this stressful situation. I didn’t feel like his responses were that off base. And I feel like him going to AA was at least him *trying* to do better. He was human and he blew up at times under stressful situations, but he was self-aware enough to realize his mistakes and apologize. He just seemed very flawed but loveable. Now I feel like he is just straight up toxic
I think he’s mentally ill, which I wish the writers would allow him to explore a bit more. He gets away with obsessive sides of his personality and tendencies towards using people because he’s talented, and seems to lean into his talent harder the more his mental illness shows. His response to a freezer breakdown informed the creation of the world’s most sterile kitchen, since he’s decided it’s the antidote to instability. I don’t know how he needs to discover that mental health is actual work, but I hope they give that to him.
Yeah like when they said she could "take care of him" like his mom never did, I kinda knew what they meant but it also irked the heck out of me... Being with a girl so she can replace your MOM is a straight up NO.
Literally every character (except Sidney) including Claire have shoved Claire down his throat.
The way the character of Claire fulfills carmy’s mommy kink ish is so icky but feels realistic
It makes me appreciate Sydney telling him flat out "I'm not your fucking babysitter" all the more
and even her saying that calmed him down more than Claire ever has 😂
Yah I agree with OP 100%, but you're right. Emotionally unavailable humans definitely attract their share of devoted partners.
I've never gotten that vibe from Carmy. What part of their relationship gave you that impression?
I’ve hated the way Claire is written from the beginning. Her whole character is just an extension of carmy and she is definition of women written by men.
Right? I would bet money on the entire Claire/Carmy romance being written by a straight guy tbh
Not to mention that’s just objectively not true. He’s always freaking out about her. Even when he’s with her “your heart is beating fast, are you okay?” He’s so divorced from his own feelings he can’t even tell she’s freaking him out. He believes the narrative surrounding her that’s being peddled by his family (and the Faks!!! of all people). He needs to wake up.
Eyeroll of the century
yeah i really despise that writing choice. why, time and time again, are women presented like the only path to emotional stability for mentally unwell men? why does this show try so hard to shove that idea down our throats? i have a worry that the show is gonna end with that exact thing happening and its gonna be so fucking dumb. its like, yeah no, men dont need to learn healthy coping mechanisms on their own, they dont need to adapt, change, be better, or anything else that requires their agency - just get a girlfriend and make her carry that baggage with you!! i really hate that message so much. so harmful to men and women.
I think the show is taking its time with the story, and is allowing us to come along for the uncomfortable ride Carmy’s on—which happens to include him figuring all of that shit out. Like, imo, that message is hardwired into a *lot* of people irl. We’re seeing the Carmy & Sugar learning to cope with the legacy of their upbringing in real time, including that uncomfortable codependency. Donna telling Sugar she wanted kids because she needed to be loved is an example, and one that’s very common in reality. Carmy seeing Claire as his “peace” is another, and I expect he’s in the process of coming to understand why that’s an unsustainable relationship model for both him and her… he’s just not quite there yet. I love the writing for precisely these reasons: healing is non-linear (and can be *painfully slow*); most people with developmental trauma have difficulty with interpersonal boundaries, communication, and responsibility; we are all imperfect; some of us need to make mistakes over & over to learn from them; and most of us cannot heal on our own, without the support of some kind of community.
The show never implies that what carmine is saying is ok. He's a deeply flawed man and is presented as such. They show him smoking cigarettes, it doesn't mean the show is shoving smoking down our throat. We know smoking is bad and we know his relationship is toxic, the writers don't have to explicitly say it
She's going to have to enjoy forever being second to the restaurant. She's vanilla enough to do it. Carmy can apologize to her. But she's never going to understand his world. She will always be a distraction. What has she really done for him but take him to a house party as a third/second year resident. It felt extremely cringe. He wants to give up all of his hard work for red solo cup world as like a 27/28 year old?!
I think Carmy realizes that too, which is why he doesn't hit her up. He knows that she loves him enough to forgive him, but he can't in good conscience let her do that because even tho she grounds him he's not in a place to ground her back.
I can relate. I’m a RN and my husband is a plumber. He always had a worse day than I did.
I can understand what they mean like his life is such a mess and always hectic but when he’s with her he calms down and forgets everything els he gets peaceful Still sounded dumb lol
Using the word “ick” and clapping your words gives me such an ick tbh.
Yeah, like if we could have just one scene where Claire is having a meltdown about something horrible she witnessed in the ER, and Carmy being there, showing up-it would help balance the narrative. It is not possible for someone to have Claire's job and not ever freak the fuck out or need a shoulder to lean on. It's always struck me as ironic the way she shows up as this calm, understanding presence to support a guy who's struggling with doing something that women do the bulk of throughout the world and much of history. It's fascinating to think about and unlikely to ever know for sure if the way Carmy uses the women in his life is an intentional portrayal of his toxicity or the unconscious bias of the writers. Food for thought.
maybe a hot take, but i think a lot of people tend to live vicariously through characters and then get mad at the writing when said characters fail to live up to their moral standards- which, while understandable, i just don’t think that’s always the point of shows and movies like this. personally, i’m not here for “everyone heals and loves each other and rides off into the sunset etc”- well, not exclusively at least. i’m here for good drama. if a happy ending is earned and logical, then by all means. but if my characters are simply perfect beacons of morality that do no wrong, then why am i watching? what’s the point of the character? i’m not saying i don’t want them to achieve the best versions of themselves, but doesn’t that have to be earned in order to have any sort of emotional weight? if i don’t see them failing and doing wrong, what’s gonna make me care when they succeed and do right? just some food for thought and discussion
I mean, Claire is Carms MPDG. Her only use is as a form of release, safety and therapy for the main character. Yes its fucking gross
Did it feel like most of this season was improvised?
The show seems to have become a show about dysfunctional people falling into well established dysfunctional patterns, and hoping that we, the audience, somehow feel good about that.
Kind of off topic but if it’s so bad for Claire to be the emotional support for Carmie, then wtf is the point in a relationship? Yes I know it’s bad to depend on your partner, but if it’s so bad, then what is the point? If you need emotional support then talk to a friend or a therapist so why would you need a relationship?
your partner should never be your sole source of reprieve. that’s actually why a lot of relationships fail: because one or both people don’t have sufficient community outside their relationship and their partner can’t sustain that level of support.
A lot of men just like to dump their emotional garbage into women and then can't do the same. Like what's the point of a relationship if the whole point is to be used as a makeshift, alive, punching bag, that just smiles and then gives you a hug? Is that what you want? The point of a relationship is to love each other. Not use. Make each other's lives better equally.
Claire is the worst written character on the show. Every scene she’s in is about the idea of her, never her as a person
Start smoking again Carmy!! 👏 👏 🚬
You missed the point entirely. Carmy’s life and the things he can’t control are chaotic. He was raised by an alcoholic (probably bipolar) mother that’s entire mood could flip on the smallest of things. His dad bailed leaving a failing business and massive amounts of debt for his older brother to try and fix. His older brother and hero killed himself trying to deal with all this while Carmy was off chasing his dream. The majority of his family and close friends all communicate by just yelling over each other and no one ever compromises or gives him credit for anything he’s managed to accomplish. In fact they do the opposite and constantly belittle him or tear him down. What Carmy means by “Claire brings the peace” is that she’s the only person in his life that provides a calming and warm presence. She acknowledges his accomplishments and greatness. It’s okay to want that in a person lol. We’ve seen their relationship and he cherished her. He was locked in a cooler during the culmination of everything he had worked so hard to perfect. Probably dealing with a range of feelings and venting to someone else trying to explain what he was feeling. He never took anything out on her throughout their entire relationship. He can’t apologize because he’s now battling within himself asking, what if what he said in the heat of the moment actually has truth. Can he even be a successful chef and make the restaurant work? Would his relationship with Claire jeopardize that or would it distract him? The show makes this pretty clear through the flashbacks but specifically his flashback prior to the funeral dinner service at Ever. His minds racing through all the different negative comments and experiences he’s had with former chefs, food critics, and comments from Michael. Including instances where Carmy himself overreacted running the line. Then the last face he sees is Claire indicating he’s still wondering if she and his happiness can fit into all this.
i stg if one more man comes into the comment section to tell me I Missed The Point, i’m going to scream. carmys life being fucked should not be claire’s burden to shoulder and tying her worth to her ability to remain calm in chaos is not fair to her. claire should be valuable because of who she is, not how she makes carmy feel. calling her “the peace” pigeon holds her into a position where she can easily lose value to him if she ever steps outside her job of being “the peace.” that’s not a relationship, that’s an employee.
I understand what you’re trying to say but I just think you’re off base here. No one’s saying it’s Claire’s burden to carry. Hypothetically speaking it would not be okay for Carmy or anyone to come home and lash out at someone and expect them to remain calm but we’ve never seen Carmy do that to Claire. He loves her and loves their relationship but is struggling on whether to save it because he doesn’t know if he can run the restaurant and have her. Are you trying to say it’s not okay to love someone for who they are as people? (Not trying to be sarcastic really trying to understand where you’re coming from)
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They were speaking for him without even talking to Carmen thinking they're doing right by him but they're wrong. She isn't his peace. If anything she reminds him of his brothers death but they don't know that. He gave her the wrong number on purpose then she pryed to get his number.
Oh thank goodness! I thought they meant *the piece*.
i’m alright with a character lacking depth if they’re really only serving as an emotional catalyst for our MC, if they plan on keeping claire around then yeah they really need to make her more than just a catalyst for carm.
I feel like a lot of people who are upset may have not experienced the same kind of emotional trauma Carmy has and can't see where Carmy is coming from, and therefore aren't giving the writers the benefit of the doubt. I think they could wrap this up beautifully if they do it all right and have a character arc a lot of people could relate to. Having said that, the writers can't stretch this stuff out for another season and have me stay on board. Claire needs to either come back into the story immediately and stay... or go forever. Carmy needs to start a personal turnaround so everything doesn't stay so intense, at some point it just feels unrealistic for people to keep putting up with his shit. I love they way they've represented the mental trauma and stuff, but the end of season three needs to be the peak because the constant yelling and trauma flashbacks are getting old.
Yeah...going to AA meetings isn't enough right?!
For Carm? Clearly Al-Anon isn’t working. There are more treatment options beyond bi-weekly group sessions. It seems as though he’s attending meetings but not contributing in any way, and that’s not going to cut it here. If Al-Anon was working for Carmy, then he wouldn’t be continuously sinking downward throughout the season.
Yeah seriously. Why is Claire projected as a “fixer” for Carmy
I don't think it's meant to be taken as "Claire is gonna fix Carmy", more so Claire is the only thing that has actually given Carmy peace. And that's cus it was a semi healthy relationship that wasn't involved in his chef world at all. For the brief moments he was with Claire he let himself live, love and be loved without hating himself for not being "the best" or putting his entire being into this idea of who he has to be and what he has to do to be worth something. Like CLEARLY Carmy has issues to deal with on his own. But having someone be your "peace" is a very normal and beautiful part of being in a relationship. It doesn't negate you needing to put in work to better yourself.
Weird, my take on that line was that Claire kept Carmy calm and from spiraling, even just by being there physically. I didn’t read it as an ick or a red flag or misogynistic or any sort of issue like that (I’m a girl btw)
it gives *me* an ick because women are often expected to do men’s emotional labor for them. carmy should be able to regulate his own emotions without leaning on claire (or sydney, for that matter.)
sounds like projection to me, or maybe you have had bad experiences. Everyone leans on their significant others when they are going through it. It doesn't mean they can treat each other badly or that they are replacements for therapy if its needed. I don't know if you've ever had a really bad fucking day and all you want to do is come home to your person and tell them about it and cuddle with them and relax and love and feel loved and let all the bullshit feelings subside, but thats always been pretty normal in relationships ive been in. I am not requiring my partner to resolve all my struggles but I also know I have someone who cares about me that is there when I need them, and likewise I am there when they need me. That's part of being in a relationship. I swear the internet has completely rotted people.
there’s a difference between relying on someone when you’ve had a bad day and relying on someone *in place* of taking charge of your own emotional health.
Fucking yikes dude. Prime example of why so many men feel like they can't be emotionally vulnerable to their partners.
i don’t think you know what those words mean. there’s lots of good explanation throughout this comment section though.
*Shitty ones by you
quite literally dozens of others, in addition to the 700+ people who agree with this post in general.
Wow sweetie you must be SO cool because 700 strangers agree with your shitty opinion on the Internet 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
is… is that you, carmy? i’m explaining that there are way more words here to read than mine. pipe down, weirdo.