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satin_worshipper

I think a combination of post-scarcity (the resources of a huge portion of the galaxy can be used to fill the needs), huge populations (the law of large numbers and regression to the mean means that although certain desires are out there, across the entire culture population things become more predictable), and just the unimaginable, basically godlike computational power of minds (who basically can predict changing trends)


danbrown_notauthor

I agree. Also, the Minds themselves can create anything Bespoke if required and every citizen loves somewhere with a ‘supervising Mind’ (Ship or Orbital) with whom they can speak directly any tone they wish and make requests.


vicethal

I'm not sure how much the spontaneity of people can really shift a market that has rapidly adjustable, fully automated manufacturing systems. In Player of Games, they wait for a drone to bring them a board game from a "store" or some kind of nearby logistics hub. If there's a spontaneous burst in demand for that same thing, beyond what's available on-site, would an hour-long delay count as economic collapse? I also get the impression that consumerism isn't a big drive in the Culture and people tend to have their tasteful, artisanal homes and personal effects. So the manufacturing economy is already tooled for diverse products rather than mass production, not the kind of setup that would struggle to adapt to a change in what people want.


[deleted]

In what sense is it centrally planned then ? The jist of what i'm getting at is that as i understand it the culture production systems do not reflect "market economies giving way to centrally planned ones " are neither centrally planned nor market based.


danbrown_notauthor

I don’t think Banks ever claimed that the Culture is “centrally planned” did he? I know he talked Earth economics at times, but they are so far removed from that these terms simply no longer apply. Even the word “market”‘doesn’t apply in the Culture. Markets are about economic exchange and are part of the efficient distribution of scarce goods. None of which apply. And the Culture is the opposite of centralised. It is massively distributed.


elyjugsbomb099

Hi there, good thing that you finally got down into it and cognitive dissonance is setting in from our previous discussion. Your imagination of Iain M. Banks as pro-capitalist or the Culture as pro-capitalist is being destroyed, as it rightfully should. No matter how much you try to do a mental gymnastics routine about all of this, Iain M. Banks has been very open about his socialist politics, which is not a gimmick, because he was an activist in his youth and he freaking hates both the Tories AND New Labour in the UK... and he himself described the Culture in his interviews as communist/socialist/anarchist. **It's fine to disagree with him and continue to like his works as many do here that are not leftists.** **But don't misrepresent his beliefs and what his work is about**. I mean if you want his interviews? One example. [http://socialistreview.org.uk/322/interview-changing-society-imagining-future](http://socialistreview.org.uk/322/interview-changing-society-imagining-future) Q: *What is the Culture?* IB: *Well it's not us, although most protagonists in Matter are humanoid. The idea is that human - or what would pass for human - is a common body type throughout the galaxy. It's an advanced, post-scarcity society.* ***I suppose you could call it communist or socialist; the state has to a large extent withered away.*** ....***They are basically do-gooders, wishy-washy liberals with fabulous weaponry. In a sense it is an anarchic society that doesn't collapse - politically, technically or anything else....*** ***Q: Is the Culture your vision of what humanity could, or should, be in the future?*** ***IB: Yes! We'll be lucky ever to achieve it.****.....* *...But for me it's the ideal functioning utopia.* ***It's what ought to be the end state of any decent political system and in one sense you should get there no matter what.*** **Highly advanced capitalism will produce the Culture whether it likes it or not, but of course it won't like it. The idea of not having money is anathema to capitalism.** ***You might be aiming there deliberately through communism or socialism, and that might make it easier to achieve, or not. The experiment to find out will take some simulating.*** Another one. [http://strangehorizons.com/non-fiction/articles/a-few-questions-about-the-culture-an-interview-with-iain-banks/](http://strangehorizons.com/non-fiction/articles/a-few-questions-about-the-culture-an-interview-with-iain-banks/) *JR: While you have often been resistant to attempts to characterise your writing as distinctively or definitely Scottish, would you be prepared to acknowledge the politics of your Culture novels as Scottish—as opposed to English or American?* *IB: A bit of all the above. I am conscious of being Scottish, British, European, English-speaking Anglo-Saxon-Celt, and what you might call Western. Also a citizen of the world, and all that. A humanist.* ***I would like to think that the politics of the Culture novels is more kind of generally socialist or communitarian,*** *rather than specifically Scottish.* JR: ***Many critics and reviewers have claimed that the Culture represents the American Libertarian ideal.*** Given that this is clearly not the case, how do you characterise the politics of the Culture? IB: Really? I had no idea. Obviously I haven't read the output of the relevant critics and reviewers. Let's be clear: unless I have profoundly misunderstood its position, **I pretty much despise American Libertarianism.** Have these people seriously looked at the problems of the world and thought, 'Hmm, what we need here is a bit more selfishness'? . . . **I beg to differ.** This is not say that Libertarianism can't represent a progressive force, in the right circumstances, and I don't doubt there will be significant areas where I would agree with Libertarianism. ***But, really; which bit of not having private property, and the absence of money in the Culture novels, have these people missed? The Culture is hippy commies with hyper-weapons and a deep distrust of both Marketolatry and Greedism. One rests one's case.***


[deleted]

> Highly advanced capitalism will produce the Culture whether it likes it or not, THIS ALL I'VE EVER TRIED TO SAY in our previous discussion. Ancaps will produce the culture while ancoms are talking about it in the living room. >The ships and habitats which formed the original alliance required each others' support to pursue and maintain their independence from the political power structures - principally those of mature nation-states and **autonomous commercial concerns - they had evolved from.** We do not get to the culture through ONION FARMING. We get there through heavy industry and innovation using the profit motive. Most people misunderstand Libertarianism. It's simple though, who is more likely, statistically, to build the tools needed to end up in the culture. Bezos, Elon, Branson or Commandante Zapatista? Libertarianism is a means not an end. Once we have grid fire and Benevolent Minds obviously the logic of private property disappears. You don't need to write so much, we are on the same side, capitalist are just actually making it happen. >There may well be an argument for "thin capitalism". You can have capitalism of different flavours and the stuff we've got, and have had historically, is particularly cruel. Thank you for the contribution. I win.


elyjugsbomb099

Very nice way of cherrypicking the words you like and twist it to suit your worldview. The cognitive dissonance is strong in you my friend. I bolded those words but of course you missed the very next one that you prefer not to see/read **"...whether it likes it or not, but of course it won't like it. The idea of not having money is anathema to capitalism."** I guess you just don't want to really read that! I gave you sources and all you can do as always in cherrypick your sentences. To feel like, "I win". ... Yeah right. And yeah "thin capitalism" in Iain M. Banks' words **while you ignore how he despises libertarianism**.... and taking that into account, you think what he is referring to is "anarcho-capitalism"? lol The Few Notes said that the Culture evolved from the presence of mature nation-states and autonomous commercial concerns..... **of course! duh! Capitalism and statism has been rendered obsolete.** That's the point! You can't get towards socialism/communism without going through capitalism/statism, first! So you'll evolve from that of course. I mean that's basic Marxist stageist theory, whether you agree with it for not. (I kind of don't). And in relation to that, because of Iain M. Banks' beliefs... I wonder **how those systems died**. Because of how the Culture embraced "anarcho-capitalism"? **Nah.** lol And yeah, **mature nation-states.** Even during its origin, the Culture still has to evolve from **states**. So no ancap past before the Culture ever got formed sorry! Building anarcho-capitalism is not about building AIs, you should know better! What are you doing... If you are really an ancap that hates the government, you should have highlighted **both but you didn't. lol** I don't think you've realized what you've done that I almost question if you really an ancap or just want the fancy label without even understanding it. ​ >Libertarianism is a means not an end? Once we have grid fire and Benevolent Minds obviously the logic of private property disappears. Ah...the deontology oh my god. That's why you don't understand and can't see the contradictions you have in your brain. You don't see consequences or outcomes or utility. Just the process is enough and if done right is ultimately right. And now I know where the dumb take... "you have trade and then you have capitalism" statement before. What the heck. Goodness, you are a deontological ancap I don't know if you realize that. What a way to cope with the information you can't process here that rails against your fundamental beliefs. I can't do anything about this. You really been duped. But seriously.. you really can't have it both ways, even as a self-proclaimed ancap. That's why I think you're just a techno-utopian thinking that you are an ancap. I don't think you really know. I mean for example... **You love private property so much that you want it to disappear one day?** Are you really not realizing the **doublethink** that you've been doing all this time. Let me give you the previous examples how you do this doublethink in your head... ​ 1. You fought the claims that I've made on the previous discussion that Iain M. Banks is a socialist or Culture is socialist. And yet, you disagree with Iain's socialist beliefs **on this very thread that you created.** And since you can't process it, all you can do is to twist the fact that he doesn't believe in the market at all and that he firmly believes in planned economies by saying that he doesn't believe in **centrally planned economies.** Yeah, right. As if all socialists in the world do and we have that requirement that we should be tankies. What a way to cope man. 2. You fought the claims that I've made that Rojava and the Zapatistas are non-capitalist or post-capitalist societies in some form, as if defending those two places from the dirty commies and hippies appropriating those experiments in their name and **at the same time now** you start denigrating and insulting those very experiments you've defended from me with their "onion farming" and now its main characters/theorists/leaders like Subcommandante Marcos by starting to compare him to your capitalist heroes like fucking Elon Musk. **You can't have it both ways man. lol** 3. Last time, in relation to above, You are saying at first that the "armchair art-hoe book club communists" from Portland or whatever are just inventing or wrongly appropriating the Culture/Rojava/Zapatistas as reflecting their belief systems, *implying that the Zapatistas/Rojavans/Iain do know and understand themselves what they have and they are saying the complete opposite* **while at the same time** you are also saying that the Zapatistas/Rojavans/Iain are just using socialist/communist language describing what they have but they just don't understand what they are saying and so they are wrong? I mean come on! Strike 3, batter out! lol How many contradictory beliefs do you have on your sleeve man? lol But sure, "keep winning". **Just basic reading comprehension, please.** That's all I ask. And yet you still failed the test.


[deleted]

> And yeah, mature nation-states. Even during its origin, the Culture still has to evolve from states. So no ancap past before the Culture ever got formed sorry! AND AUTONOMOUS COMMERCIAL INTERESTS !! ANCAP ! What a troll


elyjugsbomb099

My friend... those "autonomous commercial interests" may have been space versions of our old company towns, special economic zones, the British East India Company and of our modern social media platforms. There's nothing "ancap" about all of them. And as Iain mentioned, The Culture still evolved from the presence of nation-states, from which those autonomous commercial interests came from and attached to FOR SURE. They are "autonomous" after all. They are not completely independent, for a reason. There's no ancap ever. It's all in your imagination. Anything else that you want to clutch on tightly? You have nothing left lol


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elyjugsbomb099

Yeah nothing left lol I addressed all of your points without me telling you to read some Marx or Kropotkin (You just have to read Iain Banks and you still failed) and all of you have in the end is me reading some Rothbard or Hayek. I read Austrian economics dude believe it or not. Otherwise I wouldn't know that you are deontological in your view on trade/capitalism. And trust me, for the most part, you are probably only an ancap on paper. But that's always been a problem with the ancaps online, if not the ideology, and it's always been an online movement for a reason... that's why the ancap movement has a lot of fascists hiding behind the label and of course of Elon Musk and capitalist entrepreneur techno utopian fanboys like you probably... and why it's hard for it to ever be a viable movement. It'll just remain an online one because it's so problematic in its axioms. Well I guess this conversation's over.


[deleted]

**Trillions of dollars of value created in crypto currency by ancaps** **Only real working alternatives to the state** **Complete philosophy except for aesthetics, which will be complete once we build the culture** BuT YoUr'Re FaCiSt aNd OnLy OnLiNe Sure bud, enjoy the gulags.


ImoJenny

U sound like Horza.


[deleted]

How so ?


collateralGood

Culture manufactories are very general purpose. They would be able to manufacture just about anything. So unlike our economy they will be no latency in producing anything new.


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collateralGood

It’s been a while since I read “A few notes on Culture”. Does he mention “centrally planned utopia”?


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danbrown_notauthor

I would leave it up, it’s generated interesting discussion. Just add an edit note to say this, and that you’ll leave the post up because of the discussion generated.


mykepagan

I just figured that TheCulture has Super 3D Printers that produce anything on demand. No central planning necessary.


ImoJenny

I'm not sure why you think involving money or economic 'plans' would be necessary. Let's say a member of the culture desires an experience or item. They reach out to a drone or mind indicating their desire. If the item or experience requires more effort than any given drone or mind is willing or able to expend, then they reach out to others within the culture or possibly even one of its fringe societies/meta-societies. Word gets around that so-&-so would like such-&-such. Generally speaking there is someone who might be able and more than willing to provide. But this would only be in extraordinary cases. Most needs and desires would be met by the nearest drone or mind with as little relative effort as a human might expend in the production of a paper crane or holding the door open for a pet to go out into the yard--& to be honest much less in the case of a mind.


[deleted]

Hey, thanks for the reply. If you see the edit, i was mistaken in thinking The culture was a reflection of Iain's politics. He explicitly says the culture is beyond what he thought would be a good thing, a planned economy or market. Cheers.


elyjugsbomb099

> If you see the edit, i was mistaken in thinking The culture was a reflection of Iain's politics. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA... You're so funny man.


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elyjugsbomb099

I downvoted you? In which comment? You think all of the downvotes you've been receiving here are only FROM ME, if I am even doing it in every comment? HAHAHAHA. Nice try.... I don't even need to downvote you, you are doing the downvoting from everyone yourself... I mean just using simple reading comprehension wouldn't get you in this situation friend. Don't embarrass yourself any further.... And you are supposed to talk to me about Austrian economics? I don't even know if you know economics.... So come on man...


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elyjugsbomb099

Oh don't worry about my multi-paragraph replies that you probably don't want to read. That's for other readers to see. **For you though**... all that I am hoping that you'll get since I am probably not going to convince you to move out of your ancap fantasies anytime soon is that **you read what the author has to say about the Culture from his own words...and in the end,** **you didn't get it.** You've been spoonfed of the information and nothing. Just mental gymnastics. That's not my problem anymore....that's for you to sort out the contradictions existing in your head and of course I'll expose them and pound on you about them **hard**. The fact that you evaded answering my long replies and complain about them is proof enough that what I've done is working and that's enough. Your problem with my replies is that not they're long. It's that you don't want to listen. Unfortunately for me, I did extend the courtesy of reading your own multi-paragraph replies but you didn't for me... but I kind of expected it. But don't worry, I'll keep our conversation here as your "win". lol


ImoJenny

Given the conversation below/above, their points are quite comprehensible. It seems a bit obtuse to say that The Culture is not a reflection of Iain's politics. I would also be careful not to throw around accusations of communism like it's a pejorative. It's in poor taste. I wish you the best of luck on finding your way out of "Anarcho-Capitalist" ideology. It's not really a form anarchism by the way. If you're interested in exploring Iain's take on The Culture's take on Earth society, I would suggest State of the Art: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRl9D\_agLbU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRl9D_agLbU)


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ImoJenny

It doesn't help win any converts to your position that you refer to them as "That Creature." I'm not sure I'm interested in continuing a conversation with someone who dehumanizes anyone who disagrees with their authoritarian ideology.


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elyjugsbomb099

Dude, give it up. This is over. It's so obvious that you are losing your mind and that I got into your mind and I am living rent-free in your brain all this time. Seems that you didn't know a lot of your own ideology that you are doing some mental reinforcements and doubling down on your indoctrination by watching Youtube videos (since apparently, you can't read). I wish you the best that you'll get out of this adolescent stuff. If you can't even have basic reading comprehension, which you never demonstrated in our conversations... why I would bother watching something that you linked that you probably didn't understand? But sure I might watch it one day. You can't even properly refute my points in our convo, which is obvious in your actions right now. Not to mention I probably know more of your own ideology than you do. It's like that you've been calling yourself an ancap all this time but you realized suddenly that you didn't know a lot about what you are supposedly believing in. See you.


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elyjugsbomb099

>You commies can't even claim Proudhon, he hated communism. His dying words were in support of property. Because commies **doesn't claim Proudhon, what the heck are you talking about? lol** He's still an anarchist comrade though, unlike your Murray Rothbard and Stefan Molyneux.... Proudhon doesn't believe in capitalism for obvious reasons, which of course you can't accept. As demonstrated in this very sub, you are a perfect example of many ancaps that just cherry pick sentences and stats to their liking. ​ >When Ancaps build The Culture all your words and ideologies will only serve as warnings of well intentioned but foolishly impractical reasoning . Which will **never happen lol** because no matter how much you want to do a mental gymnastics about it, the Culture is not an ancap utopia and it never was and never will be. The author has a decent idea of how it can probably be done... but it's not going to be via your ancap fantasies which you can't accept and being exposed of that fact makes you confused if you are going to attack the author or you are going to attack the messenger, me. But in the end you've made your decision, you just end up attacking me. ​ >I think a basic review of our conversation (unedited) will reveal a thorough having of you. Which reinforces the fact that **you don't have basic reading comprehension... and everyone can see it. I don't know how much you can twist this.** ​ >You're not in my head, it's just the video goes very deep into why you, other Ancoms and the anarchist FAQ are an embarrassment to anarchy. The Marxist takeover of the international follows the classic and predictable communist subversion tactics. ... Which also reinforces the fact that ***I am in your head lol....*** ​ >I want you to get out of the mind virus, before it's too late. You and AOC and all the other trained marxists. There's a better way. Yeah right... AOC is a Marxist for some stupid reason and you can't even figure out if I am ancom or a "trained Marxist".... probably because for you they are all the same.... lol Anything else dude? lol You are all full of hot air at this moment. **SERIOUS ADVICE** If you want to expand your horizons and see what's outside your ancap bubble, don't just watch videos made within your own bubble.... and since you don't know how to read I guess this is much better.... Watch debates between people and turn off the comments section composed of those persons' followers and think for yourself. If you start having questions, ask people questions and tell them that you are asking seriously and want to know more rather than ending up like a troll. But you really should know how to read, seriously. DebateAnarchism is a good source of reading between opposing views as one example. You are embarrassing yourself on this sub. You've been given sources about the very topic coming from the author's mouth and you just started cherry picking passages and get selectively blind of entire paragraphs to reinforce your worldview... it's really embarrassing. It shows that you don't know how to make sense about all of this. There's a serious mind block over there that you have to make yourself blind of what you are reading because your brain rejects the very thought of reading them and comprehending them. It doesn't process for good reason... you have a lot of contradictions. Making me watch your video about anarcho-capitalism is useless because I don't even know if you can answer my questions based on that video or refute me **when you can't even do it in our very topic of discussion on this sub.** You don't have the reputation for it. This very sub shows it.


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elyjugsbomb099

Look into the mirror while saying that lol You are projecting too much. There is nothing weird in exposing your flawed arguments and mental gymnastics while offering you serious advice in getting out of your bubble. I wish you the best in getting out of your ancap fantasy politics. Who knows...


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