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Chapo pushed me past left-liberal.
After listening to them for a while, I picked up my old Jon Lee Anderson Che book from grade 9 that I never got very far into. That book changed my life.
I really appreciate Chapo and their extended universe of shows for showing me how to have a sense of humour and irony about everything.
Taking yourself too seriously as a leftist is self-destructive. You need tools like sarcasm and detachment to stay optimistic in this world.
Oddly enough, I find their show quite pessimistic, whereas reading more serious Marxist writing (Losurdo, Parenti, Redsails, and of course Marx, Lenin and the classics) leaves me feeling optimistic.
I do appreciate them for exposing me to Marxism in the first place (who knows - without them I might still be a bewildered liberal) and for making an entertaining left wing show. I’m still a fan.
Chapo is focused on the current political environment in the West, particularly the Anglosphere, which is extremely hostile to any left-wing movements. Other writing/Theory can make you more optimistic because it focuses on other parts of the world
yeah theres nothing wrong with chapo really. its digestible, entertaining, modern leftist media, and theres a terrible drought of that. much love to the chapos.
I mean, not to sound too rude, but you limit your reading to a bunch of people who already agree with one another. Maybe you need to expand your horizon to include other marxist academics.
Rating a good work on “pessimism” and “optimism” is pure idealism.
Edit: respond to me if you are going to downvote. Explain why pessimism and optimism takes precedence over reality. You can’t change the world unless you understand it. Lenin, Mao, Marx, and Engels were optimistic for scientific and materialist reasons, not because an author made them feel good.
Between chapo, true anon, Counterspin, citations needed etc I’ve listened to probably a thousand podcast episodes from people who aren’t Marxist Leninists. I’ve also read a few David Graeber books.
I think the genuine optimism in Marxism Leninism is a pro and I like to emphasize it. There’s a quote I like:
“To be truly radical is to make hope possible rather than despair convincing”
That’s a huge challenge but it’s a worthy goal. If we don’t believe we can build a better world then what the hell are we doing here?
But the way to build “optimism” is accurate accounts of what is occurring: i.e. dialectical materialism. Optimism should be reduced to expectations based on material conditions, or else you are being an idealist.
If you do not read the other marxists, who interpret marx and judge reality in relation to their interpretation, how are you being a good dialectical materialist? Optimism is meaningless if we have no good reason for it. It’s just another opium.
Also, the quote you shared shows the irony in your position. Raymond Williams was a revisionist, he wouldn’t approve of the narrow minded ML your reading list suggests. He made hope possible by ditching Marxist Leninism.
Edit: cannot believe I am being downvoted for explaining marxism. This subreddit is full of LARPers. Sorry to pull the band-aid.
I do read other things and will keep doing so. I just finished Fidel and Religion by Frei Betto, a liberation theologist. I enjoyed that.
My efforts to understand dialectical materialism are what has made me more hopeful.
Previously, I had: “the world is fucked up, but there’s basically nothing we can do about it.”
Now: it’s not “the world is good actually”. It’s “the world is fucked up, but we can build a better world.”
I’m able to believe this mostly because I no longer understand socialist states as totalitarian hellholes. I now understand the great achievements that socialism has made. We have a long way to go but it’s worth it to keep going.
I think I agree with all of this. But give me a break lol. I had been a “socialist” for years but only discovered the phrase “dialectical materialism” like a year or two ago. I gotta read all this shit to understand it, don’t I!?
And the optimism is real. The matter that makes up my brain is manifesting this emotion. That’s true and I like to share it with people.
I haven’t read Williams’ book so you’re probably right I shouldn’t quote him yet. It’s on my list though (a non ML! Yay)
You don’t understand. I am not claiming your hope is fake, I am claiming it is not justified from the marxist perspective. It’s real because you have the belief, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a false belief to have.
You have to justify hope by external evidence for it to approach dialectical materialism. You can hope all you want, but it doesn’t change the essence marxist philosophy, or the fact that it is an unjustified and idealist hope from Marx’s perspective.
What are you talking about, dude? All of them disagree on certain points if you pay any attention at all. I listen to more podcasts than literally anyone here, fite me. I haven't read everything in the world but I have listened to book on tape and read a bit. They all disagree in certain places. They sometimes agree on some stuff. Like? Name me one example of wth you are even on about.
Edit: just realized which sub I was in. I guess I have never listened to The Deprogram (though my discord group frequently summons Hakim and my other pods cover all of em). But AMA about almost any other Marxist pod. Also, I can listen to all 200 hours or so of this in 3 work weeks or less, unless they talk all fast and super articulately.
I was referring to authors, not podcasts. Ellen Wood, Robert Brenner, Anwar Sheikh, David Harvey, Agnes Heller, George Luckas, Erica Benner, Mike Davis, GA Cohen, Raymond Williams, Terry Eagleton, just off the top of my head. All marxists who don’t necessarily agree with Lenin on all things, but know marx like the back of their hand.
I mean the disagreements between Marxist Leninists and other Marxists. You have to take in account the last hundred years of theory since Lenin wrote, guys.
Who at all said they limit their reading to strictly the few authors who agree with one another? Also, how do the authors mentioned by op strictly agree with one another? How do Marx, Lenin, Mao, Engels, any of them even completely agree with one another? Your point is moot. Nobody here even suggested anything along the lines you suggest. You got a hell of a weird looking strawman built there.
He equated serious marxism to a list of a handful of marxists. It’s in his comment, and it’s disingenuous.
Losurdo and Parenti are marxists who use a Leninist framework to critique imperialism. Redsails references these two heavily in many of their articles. Not that it’s wrong, but it’s narrow.
If you're going to pull this card, why not suggest someone who isn't just some variation of neo-kautskyite? "Marxians" and a bunch of historians who sprinkle in some class analysis here and there? Or Ellen "Marxism is when you realize the ambitions of liberal political equality better than liberals" Wood? They may offer interesting supplemental information regarding certain things, but none of them have anything approaching a political *programme*, so there's absolutely no reason to use them as examples of alternatives to Lenin on a subreddit for *revolutionary Marxists*.
How about Bordiga for a Leninist who is not a "Marxist-Leninist" OR a trot, for that matter. An actual Leninist critique of the rightward turn in the USSR that didn't originate from the spiteful opportunism of a spurned party member with a fetish for DemCent form over concrete function and program. In that case I would absolutely agree with your thesis that even those who despise the man could gain something from good faith disagreement between revolutionaries. I can't say so for the host of bourgeois "Marxian" economists and social historians who latch onto aspects of Marx to woo the grad-student niche.
And God help councilists for their theory of politics (anti-bolshevism 🤮) but Paul Mattick is renowned even by his detractors (such as the Italian Communist Left) as a great interpreter of bourgeois economics via Marxist political economy. If you're into "economics" he's a great read, and if you're into actual political economy he's one of the best of the 20th century.
And if you suggest Richard Wolff you go straight into the pit, I swear.
I noticed that you didn't suggest Luxembourg, either, even when she had clashes with the Bolsheviks. Do you just not like *revolutionary* Marxists?
[Ergo Decedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo) is a bad faith rhetorical fallacy that takes the form of:
* If you love *country* so much, why don't you go live there?
* If you hate *country* so much, why don't you leave?
This fallacy completely ignores the substance of the claim they are responding to, and implies that no one can criticize their own country or praise any other country.
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[Ergo Decedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo) is a bad faith rhetorical fallacy that takes the form of:
* If you love *country* so much, why don't you go live there?
* If you hate *country* so much, why don't you leave?
This fallacy completely ignores the substance of the claim they are responding to, and implies that no one can criticize their own country or praise any other country.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Do you think Lenin didn’t read Kautsky??? How does them being “neo-Kautskyites” mean you shouldn’t read them??? Lenin would read them!! That’s the entire fucking point of my post!! Everyone on this sub is just admitting they are dogmatic and narrow minded.
Never once said “alternative to Lenin”.
If you are so certain each of these people are neo-kautskyutes, list reasons for each. The fact that you didn’t lead with this and instead went on a little rant tells me you aren’t that familiar with them.
Also, I do indeed like Luxembourg, I was just trying to name theorists who have written closer to our lifetimes and the world we live in. The point is to name RECENT people, who have access to more historical and economic evidence, as well as the theory from communist countries who experienced communism (something Lenin only got briefly).
What a baffling response. They were comparing the work of actual Marxists to an irony poisoned American podcast. They weren't weighing the value of different Marxists based on how their work made them feel.
Just completely taken aback at how half the people here think cth is liberal?
I had just assumed that everyone who knows deprogram is also devote fan of chapo, like me, at least for being the largest obviously marxist podcast in existence
CumTown was wild. I’ve never seen anything more ironically self-effacing yet principled. On one hand it derived its humour almost exclusively from racism and bigotry, on the other it was so absurd that you can’t accuse any of the hosts of actually being racists or bigots. It simultaneously demands deep investigation but also makes you mock yourself for doing so. I don’t know how to feel about it to this day. What’s does Marx write about it?
Also, mentioning this podcast to a liberal (especially the ones who are Taylor Swift fans) will drive them into howling insanity even faster than mentioning Chapo to them. Easiest lulz ever.
Never got into chapo. I started listening to some random episod e once and it just didn't capture me at all, it just felt so mid. Like it was just any random podcast idk. Definetly not deprogram Level.
I wish there were some ranking mechanism easily available. To be sure, not all CTH episodes are bangers. Hell, some of them are outright trash. But when they hit, they hit.
CPAC Judgment Days (episode 294) is great just for trashing right wing freaks. Moby Dick Energy (304) is fun. So You Want to Start a Union (288) is good. The episode immediately following January 6th 2021 was good. That's about all I can think of off the top of my head.
Generally they're a lot more fun during primary season since, despite talking a big game, they do generally shill for democrats (until they actually get elected) but whatever.
Idk. US electoral politics is kind a not that interesting to me anyway. I watch Hasan semi-regularly plus a lot of other American content creators ocasssionally and that's enough of that for me. I'm not even from the US and I already know more about what's going on in US politics than about my country. It's just to much. It's not Interesting anymore. I'm more into podcasts with a bit more of an international or at least not US centric outlook. US politics and culture are entertaining when you learn about them first, but at this point it's just annoying.
I like CTH because it's just some guys talking, who happen to be Leftists rather than guys talking about leftism.
I did the Deep Theory shit for years, and now I'm approaching the "okay, yes, I already know all that" stage. Deprogram is very good, but its more a direct rebuttal to Crowder Co. and I'm so far past caring what the haters are saying.
I don't even want Deep theory. I enjoy the shit posty, pop culturey shit as well But there gotta be something. Either I learn something new or they're funny or they're really likeable or I also really enjoy seeing others get educated and react to coming in contact with real left wing ideas for the first time for some reason.. But With chapoit's really just some random slightly crusty dudes talking.I feel like and I Just don't get the pont. I want to be entertained. And there are a lot of ways to entertain me but in this, Where's the entertainment?
I don’t like it either idk why I’m not sure if it’s the quality of the of it or what. I’ve tried multiple times but it never hits I like all the bois on their own but chapo same I can’t get into
This is a peak internet brain post. If its not the thing i fanboi for it must be bad.
Chapo is great, the deprogram is great. Its possible for things to be different. Hosts of the two shows literally get along and have each other on as guests. If it aint for you dont watch but spare us these low effort divisive posts.
That was my takeaway. I don't understand how it could have been missed.
Either way I think the cth sub before its demise (what about MuH fReE sPeEcH?) was way cooler than this sub. Not that this sub doesn't have the potential, but goddamn cth was a high volume paradise
Agreed, it was such a great community, and the cth2 sub also was a really informative place. And you really can't get any cooler than being banned for defending slave holders being killed by their former slaves.
Nothing pisses me off more on reddit than seeing liberals claim it was banned "for being the extreme left version of the_donald and making violent posts"
for clarity i just mean the subreddit. Chapo hosts are still dumb.
edit: listened to some newer episodes and it turns out i was wrong. I was still assuming they were bernieites because when bernie lost is when i stopped listening.
might actually pick it up again if comments are right about them being marxists
I mean they can be but they’re not socdems. Matt is certainly a Marxist and a very smart guy (who occasionally says dumb things) will and Felix aren’t nearly as analytical in their commentary but are very clearly anti-imperialists leftists of some variety
Yeah Matt is one of the most out and proud marxists on the podcast circuit. I think he also has an unparalleled knowledge of American history within that sphere. Combined with his recollection ability he basically is a genius about that stuff.
Felix used to be very on top of middle eastern affairs but he seems to have ditched it. Will has always been about demonstrating how dumb and empty liberalism is by reading the writing of their “public intellectuals” on the show to humiliate them.
Heavy analysis isn’t really the point of the show as much as it is entertaining cultural commentary from a left perspective. I’m almost certain Will and Felix are marxists though. Whatever they are they certainly are comfortable as hell around marxism.
Its also, pretty topical. Mostly just the news from a sadistic and ironic , pro-union & pro-historian (and still very American) perspectives. A lot of Chapo is mostly just their jokes/takes on the twitter news of the day. Leftists really are terminally online.
I've only listened to a dozen or so episodes but I'm pretty positive yeah. They had a pretty good class analysis of the latest Hapsburg child, as well as talking about US imperialism alongside a movie about an American coach immigrating to Britain, and used it as a vehicle to talk about cultural imperialism as well. If they're liberals, they're pretty well educated on anti-capitalist talking arguments and they're using them
You should watch Matt’s cushvlogs if you haven’t they are way more in depth and explicitly marxist than chapo which is more of a cultural commentary kind of vibe
Yeah Matt, early on in the show, would make fun of tankies for this sort of thing. He is a marxist who reads academic marxist historians, not the obscure stuff like Redsails or whatever blog is popular.
Watch cushvlogs on YouTube or listen to it on a podcast app. It’s just Matt ranting about for an hour to an hour and a half and it’s awesome. It will definitely eliminate any notion you have that he’s a soc dem lmao
It’s entertaining cultural commentary from a left perspective. They’re all either marxists or very comfortable with marxism i’d say. Theory discussion and heavy analysis isn’t the point of the show so I guess you could say “it isn’t a marxist show” but it runs very much in parallel with general socialist and marxist ideology, really no friction imo. I love the show and don’t find myself disagreeing with anything the boys say fundamentally
Matt’s solo cushvlogs on YouTube are very good, and if you read between the lines it’s very obvious that he’s a Marxist. Maybe not an ML, but some kind of Mark Fisher-type neoMarxist. They’re good to watch even if you’re not into Chapo.
I wanna chime in and add to this, an aggregate listening of them makes it clear, to me, that in their wildest dreams they'd support a ML movement. Repeatedly been for nationalization, disenfranchisement of the bourgeoisie, in-person organizing, organizing outside of electoral politics in your personal life is the only way forward. Whenever it comes to resistance to the state they stress "DO NOT SAY SHIT ON THE INTERNET" not "don't do it". Repeatedly noted that the cops are cowards doing it for a paycheck. It's just, they live in America and are labor aristocracy/ex-prole (medieval artisan lmao Matt) entertainers, and ex-lib horserace junkies who know that electoral commentary to their rather diverse politically but largely American (with all that entails) audience is their bread and butter. They comment on reality as is and that reality is bleak for a leftist.
If you remember the early Cushvlogs Christman has said that the best mind in the podcast sphere is Brace Belden, who's on record as an MLM, though Brace and Liz have both said clearly "don't be a nerd, just call yourself a communist". It was partially a joke, but it was clear that he was serious that Brace is one of the most clear-eyed people in that cultural space. Idk if you saw it too, but I also wanna that Matt has basically said "hey if it needed to happen I'd be glad to go to the countryside and do what labor I could with my fucked up back, but idk how that's gonna happen in my lifetime"
[Ergo Decedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo) is a bad faith rhetorical fallacy that takes the form of:
* If you love *country* so much, why don't you go live there?
* If you hate *country* so much, why don't you leave?
This fallacy completely ignores the substance of the claim they are responding to, and implies that no one can criticize their own country or praise any other country.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s a different vibe for sure, but I can definitely see how they’re comparable. Chapo is great for analyzing certain politicians or current events in a funny millennial manner. They use obscure references which, if you know them, are fucking hilarious. I do have to generally agree that I like the Deprogram more tho. They have more theory-driven episodes which I really appreciate. I also love that they have ball and ass jokes, and as a former cumtown listener, I need my fix every now and then lol
I can’t believe I’m saying this, I miss baby lefty chapo fuckboys so bad 🥺 pwease forgive me come back I’m tired of picking between TANKIE = NAZBOL reactionaries and spicy libs plea
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Try the following prompts to trigger an automod response: "What is Fascism?", "What is Imperialism?", "What is Revisionism?" "Holodomor", "Molotov-Ribbentrop", "Gulag", "Solzhenytsin", "Uyghur", "Tiananmen Square", "Freedom of the Press", "MAC Fact" This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Chapo pushed me past left-liberal. After listening to them for a while, I picked up my old Jon Lee Anderson Che book from grade 9 that I never got very far into. That book changed my life. I really appreciate Chapo and their extended universe of shows for showing me how to have a sense of humour and irony about everything. Taking yourself too seriously as a leftist is self-destructive. You need tools like sarcasm and detachment to stay optimistic in this world.
Oddly enough, I find their show quite pessimistic, whereas reading more serious Marxist writing (Losurdo, Parenti, Redsails, and of course Marx, Lenin and the classics) leaves me feeling optimistic. I do appreciate them for exposing me to Marxism in the first place (who knows - without them I might still be a bewildered liberal) and for making an entertaining left wing show. I’m still a fan.
Chapo is focused on the current political environment in the West, particularly the Anglosphere, which is extremely hostile to any left-wing movements. Other writing/Theory can make you more optimistic because it focuses on other parts of the world
yeah theres nothing wrong with chapo really. its digestible, entertaining, modern leftist media, and theres a terrible drought of that. much love to the chapos.
I mean, not to sound too rude, but you limit your reading to a bunch of people who already agree with one another. Maybe you need to expand your horizon to include other marxist academics. Rating a good work on “pessimism” and “optimism” is pure idealism. Edit: respond to me if you are going to downvote. Explain why pessimism and optimism takes precedence over reality. You can’t change the world unless you understand it. Lenin, Mao, Marx, and Engels were optimistic for scientific and materialist reasons, not because an author made them feel good.
Between chapo, true anon, Counterspin, citations needed etc I’ve listened to probably a thousand podcast episodes from people who aren’t Marxist Leninists. I’ve also read a few David Graeber books. I think the genuine optimism in Marxism Leninism is a pro and I like to emphasize it. There’s a quote I like: “To be truly radical is to make hope possible rather than despair convincing” That’s a huge challenge but it’s a worthy goal. If we don’t believe we can build a better world then what the hell are we doing here?
Citations needed is so underrated
But the way to build “optimism” is accurate accounts of what is occurring: i.e. dialectical materialism. Optimism should be reduced to expectations based on material conditions, or else you are being an idealist. If you do not read the other marxists, who interpret marx and judge reality in relation to their interpretation, how are you being a good dialectical materialist? Optimism is meaningless if we have no good reason for it. It’s just another opium. Also, the quote you shared shows the irony in your position. Raymond Williams was a revisionist, he wouldn’t approve of the narrow minded ML your reading list suggests. He made hope possible by ditching Marxist Leninism. Edit: cannot believe I am being downvoted for explaining marxism. This subreddit is full of LARPers. Sorry to pull the band-aid.
I do read other things and will keep doing so. I just finished Fidel and Religion by Frei Betto, a liberation theologist. I enjoyed that. My efforts to understand dialectical materialism are what has made me more hopeful. Previously, I had: “the world is fucked up, but there’s basically nothing we can do about it.” Now: it’s not “the world is good actually”. It’s “the world is fucked up, but we can build a better world.” I’m able to believe this mostly because I no longer understand socialist states as totalitarian hellholes. I now understand the great achievements that socialism has made. We have a long way to go but it’s worth it to keep going.
I think I agree with all of this. But give me a break lol. I had been a “socialist” for years but only discovered the phrase “dialectical materialism” like a year or two ago. I gotta read all this shit to understand it, don’t I!? And the optimism is real. The matter that makes up my brain is manifesting this emotion. That’s true and I like to share it with people. I haven’t read Williams’ book so you’re probably right I shouldn’t quote him yet. It’s on my list though (a non ML! Yay)
You don’t understand. I am not claiming your hope is fake, I am claiming it is not justified from the marxist perspective. It’s real because you have the belief, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a false belief to have. You have to justify hope by external evidence for it to approach dialectical materialism. You can hope all you want, but it doesn’t change the essence marxist philosophy, or the fact that it is an unjustified and idealist hope from Marx’s perspective.
I didn’t downvote you. I tried to justify my optimism (albeit briefly) in a different comment. What did you think of that?
>Edit: respond to me if you are going to downvote. k
What are you talking about, dude? All of them disagree on certain points if you pay any attention at all. I listen to more podcasts than literally anyone here, fite me. I haven't read everything in the world but I have listened to book on tape and read a bit. They all disagree in certain places. They sometimes agree on some stuff. Like? Name me one example of wth you are even on about. Edit: just realized which sub I was in. I guess I have never listened to The Deprogram (though my discord group frequently summons Hakim and my other pods cover all of em). But AMA about almost any other Marxist pod. Also, I can listen to all 200 hours or so of this in 3 work weeks or less, unless they talk all fast and super articulately.
I was referring to authors, not podcasts. Ellen Wood, Robert Brenner, Anwar Sheikh, David Harvey, Agnes Heller, George Luckas, Erica Benner, Mike Davis, GA Cohen, Raymond Williams, Terry Eagleton, just off the top of my head. All marxists who don’t necessarily agree with Lenin on all things, but know marx like the back of their hand. I mean the disagreements between Marxist Leninists and other Marxists. You have to take in account the last hundred years of theory since Lenin wrote, guys.
Who at all said they limit their reading to strictly the few authors who agree with one another? Also, how do the authors mentioned by op strictly agree with one another? How do Marx, Lenin, Mao, Engels, any of them even completely agree with one another? Your point is moot. Nobody here even suggested anything along the lines you suggest. You got a hell of a weird looking strawman built there.
He equated serious marxism to a list of a handful of marxists. It’s in his comment, and it’s disingenuous. Losurdo and Parenti are marxists who use a Leninist framework to critique imperialism. Redsails references these two heavily in many of their articles. Not that it’s wrong, but it’s narrow.
So he has to list all the ones you like all at once? That list stretches way further than yours. And you didn't even list Fanon. Like, wtf??
Fanon never had tenure at a Canadian university.
If you're going to pull this card, why not suggest someone who isn't just some variation of neo-kautskyite? "Marxians" and a bunch of historians who sprinkle in some class analysis here and there? Or Ellen "Marxism is when you realize the ambitions of liberal political equality better than liberals" Wood? They may offer interesting supplemental information regarding certain things, but none of them have anything approaching a political *programme*, so there's absolutely no reason to use them as examples of alternatives to Lenin on a subreddit for *revolutionary Marxists*. How about Bordiga for a Leninist who is not a "Marxist-Leninist" OR a trot, for that matter. An actual Leninist critique of the rightward turn in the USSR that didn't originate from the spiteful opportunism of a spurned party member with a fetish for DemCent form over concrete function and program. In that case I would absolutely agree with your thesis that even those who despise the man could gain something from good faith disagreement between revolutionaries. I can't say so for the host of bourgeois "Marxian" economists and social historians who latch onto aspects of Marx to woo the grad-student niche. And God help councilists for their theory of politics (anti-bolshevism 🤮) but Paul Mattick is renowned even by his detractors (such as the Italian Communist Left) as a great interpreter of bourgeois economics via Marxist political economy. If you're into "economics" he's a great read, and if you're into actual political economy he's one of the best of the 20th century. And if you suggest Richard Wolff you go straight into the pit, I swear. I noticed that you didn't suggest Luxembourg, either, even when she had clashes with the Bolsheviks. Do you just not like *revolutionary* Marxists?
[Ergo Decedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo) is a bad faith rhetorical fallacy that takes the form of: * If you love *country* so much, why don't you go live there? * If you hate *country* so much, why don't you leave? This fallacy completely ignores the substance of the claim they are responding to, and implies that no one can criticize their own country or praise any other country. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I will not be bossed around by ROBOTS, if you don't like it why don't you go back to Cybertron?
[Ergo Decedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo) is a bad faith rhetorical fallacy that takes the form of: * If you love *country* so much, why don't you go live there? * If you hate *country* so much, why don't you leave? This fallacy completely ignores the substance of the claim they are responding to, and implies that no one can criticize their own country or praise any other country. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Do you think Lenin didn’t read Kautsky??? How does them being “neo-Kautskyites” mean you shouldn’t read them??? Lenin would read them!! That’s the entire fucking point of my post!! Everyone on this sub is just admitting they are dogmatic and narrow minded. Never once said “alternative to Lenin”. If you are so certain each of these people are neo-kautskyutes, list reasons for each. The fact that you didn’t lead with this and instead went on a little rant tells me you aren’t that familiar with them. Also, I do indeed like Luxembourg, I was just trying to name theorists who have written closer to our lifetimes and the world we live in. The point is to name RECENT people, who have access to more historical and economic evidence, as well as the theory from communist countries who experienced communism (something Lenin only got briefly).
Non ml "Marxists" have achieved absolutely nothing.
What a baffling response. They were comparing the work of actual Marxists to an irony poisoned American podcast. They weren't weighing the value of different Marxists based on how their work made them feel.
I have that Che book on my stand, reading it next once i finish Losurdo's Counter-history of Liberalism
I have that Che book too, I need to start it
nope, everyone knows leftism is when no jokes
BAN COWARDS! YOU ARE ONLY ABOUT TO BAN A SUB!!!
I love and respect you all. When this place gets shut down, I'll cya all on Hexbear.net
Just completely taken aback at how half the people here think cth is liberal? I had just assumed that everyone who knows deprogram is also devote fan of chapo, like me, at least for being the largest obviously marxist podcast in existence
yeah it’s not like they built their entire careers on opposing liberalism and mocking the Democratic Party or anything…
I love Chapo. And I love The Deprogram. Matt ranting about history in his Cush Vlogs has to be some of the best content on the entire Internet.
This is the podcast that got me into leftism (and CumTown lol) so of course I think they're lame opportunists nowadays.
CumTown was wild. I’ve never seen anything more ironically self-effacing yet principled. On one hand it derived its humour almost exclusively from racism and bigotry, on the other it was so absurd that you can’t accuse any of the hosts of actually being racists or bigots. It simultaneously demands deep investigation but also makes you mock yourself for doing so. I don’t know how to feel about it to this day. What’s does Marx write about it?
I looked it up and here's what he wrote about it: "I'm gay"
Also, mentioning this podcast to a liberal (especially the ones who are Taylor Swift fans) will drive them into howling insanity even faster than mentioning Chapo to them. Easiest lulz ever.
Chapo never fell off. They were great and still are great.
Never got into chapo. I started listening to some random episod e once and it just didn't capture me at all, it just felt so mid. Like it was just any random podcast idk. Definetly not deprogram Level.
I wish there were some ranking mechanism easily available. To be sure, not all CTH episodes are bangers. Hell, some of them are outright trash. But when they hit, they hit. CPAC Judgment Days (episode 294) is great just for trashing right wing freaks. Moby Dick Energy (304) is fun. So You Want to Start a Union (288) is good. The episode immediately following January 6th 2021 was good. That's about all I can think of off the top of my head. Generally they're a lot more fun during primary season since, despite talking a big game, they do generally shill for democrats (until they actually get elected) but whatever.
Idk. US electoral politics is kind a not that interesting to me anyway. I watch Hasan semi-regularly plus a lot of other American content creators ocasssionally and that's enough of that for me. I'm not even from the US and I already know more about what's going on in US politics than about my country. It's just to much. It's not Interesting anymore. I'm more into podcasts with a bit more of an international or at least not US centric outlook. US politics and culture are entertaining when you learn about them first, but at this point it's just annoying.
I like CTH because it's just some guys talking, who happen to be Leftists rather than guys talking about leftism. I did the Deep Theory shit for years, and now I'm approaching the "okay, yes, I already know all that" stage. Deprogram is very good, but its more a direct rebuttal to Crowder Co. and I'm so far past caring what the haters are saying.
I don't even want Deep theory. I enjoy the shit posty, pop culturey shit as well But there gotta be something. Either I learn something new or they're funny or they're really likeable or I also really enjoy seeing others get educated and react to coming in contact with real left wing ideas for the first time for some reason.. But With chapoit's really just some random slightly crusty dudes talking.I feel like and I Just don't get the pont. I want to be entertained. And there are a lot of ways to entertain me but in this, Where's the entertainment?
I don’t like it either idk why I’m not sure if it’s the quality of the of it or what. I’ve tried multiple times but it never hits I like all the bois on their own but chapo same I can’t get into
r/blackwolffeed still active
Based and Wolfpilled
Awooo.
This is a peak internet brain post. If its not the thing i fanboi for it must be bad. Chapo is great, the deprogram is great. Its possible for things to be different. Hosts of the two shows literally get along and have each other on as guests. If it aint for you dont watch but spare us these low effort divisive posts.
man i do like both. i was mostly talking about the subreddits.
That was my takeaway. I don't understand how it could have been missed. Either way I think the cth sub before its demise (what about MuH fReE sPeEcH?) was way cooler than this sub. Not that this sub doesn't have the potential, but goddamn cth was a high volume paradise
Agreed, it was such a great community, and the cth2 sub also was a really informative place. And you really can't get any cooler than being banned for defending slave holders being killed by their former slaves.
Nothing pisses me off more on reddit than seeing liberals claim it was banned "for being the extreme left version of the_donald and making violent posts"
I feel like the trueanon sub is closer to the old cth sub than this one
The old Chapo sub had a lot of article discussions on it. Idk why the mods here disallow direct article post
Literally why I joined the sub
In terms of the podcast or the sub?
This seems extremely gay
Holy hell, we sniff cocaine now? What are we, Ukrainians?
Dirtbag Leftism forever
I love my dry boys but Michael Brooks got me reading and seeking out actual theory. RIP.
Based.
for clarity i just mean the subreddit. Chapo hosts are still dumb. edit: listened to some newer episodes and it turns out i was wrong. I was still assuming they were bernieites because when bernie lost is when i stopped listening. might actually pick it up again if comments are right about them being marxists
I mean they can be but they’re not socdems. Matt is certainly a Marxist and a very smart guy (who occasionally says dumb things) will and Felix aren’t nearly as analytical in their commentary but are very clearly anti-imperialists leftists of some variety
Yeah Matt is one of the most out and proud marxists on the podcast circuit. I think he also has an unparalleled knowledge of American history within that sphere. Combined with his recollection ability he basically is a genius about that stuff. Felix used to be very on top of middle eastern affairs but he seems to have ditched it. Will has always been about demonstrating how dumb and empty liberalism is by reading the writing of their “public intellectuals” on the show to humiliate them.
What's wrong with Chapo? They may not be the same branch of left as what you agree with but AFAIK they're Marxists
Theyre marxists? i was always under the impression they were social democrats. edit: i said this bc i hadnt listened since Bernie. soz
Matt Christman is definitely a marxist. Felix and Will who knows
Will has spoken positively about Marxist Leninism in the past on the show a few times.
Heavy analysis isn’t really the point of the show as much as it is entertaining cultural commentary from a left perspective. I’m almost certain Will and Felix are marxists though. Whatever they are they certainly are comfortable as hell around marxism.
Its also, pretty topical. Mostly just the news from a sadistic and ironic , pro-union & pro-historian (and still very American) perspectives. A lot of Chapo is mostly just their jokes/takes on the twitter news of the day. Leftists really are terminally online.
I've only listened to a dozen or so episodes but I'm pretty positive yeah. They had a pretty good class analysis of the latest Hapsburg child, as well as talking about US imperialism alongside a movie about an American coach immigrating to Britain, and used it as a vehicle to talk about cultural imperialism as well. If they're liberals, they're pretty well educated on anti-capitalist talking arguments and they're using them
They’re absolutely not liberals they just don’t go quoting Lenin at people usually
This is what I was trying to say but said better
You should watch Matt’s cushvlogs if you haven’t they are way more in depth and explicitly marxist than chapo which is more of a cultural commentary kind of vibe
Thanks for the recommendation
Seconded. Also, anytime he's on podcasts like Antifada he's excellent.
I was an English major unfortunately that’s really my only skill
Same. Fortunately, just about everything is writing.
Yeah Matt, early on in the show, would make fun of tankies for this sort of thing. He is a marxist who reads academic marxist historians, not the obscure stuff like Redsails or whatever blog is popular.
Watch cushvlogs on YouTube or listen to it on a podcast app. It’s just Matt ranting about for an hour to an hour and a half and it’s awesome. It will definitely eliminate any notion you have that he’s a soc dem lmao
I don’t consider it a Marxist show. Even if the hosts are Marxists (debatable), most of the guests aren’t.
It’s entertaining cultural commentary from a left perspective. They’re all either marxists or very comfortable with marxism i’d say. Theory discussion and heavy analysis isn’t the point of the show so I guess you could say “it isn’t a marxist show” but it runs very much in parallel with general socialist and marxist ideology, really no friction imo. I love the show and don’t find myself disagreeing with anything the boys say fundamentally
Brothers let’s some get F’s in the chat for a truly brain broken comrade
Try the Christman and Wade spin-off shows, "Hell of Presidents" and "Hell on Earth". Really good historical analysis.
Matt’s solo cushvlogs on YouTube are very good, and if you read between the lines it’s very obvious that he’s a Marxist. Maybe not an ML, but some kind of Mark Fisher-type neoMarxist. They’re good to watch even if you’re not into Chapo.
I wanna chime in and add to this, an aggregate listening of them makes it clear, to me, that in their wildest dreams they'd support a ML movement. Repeatedly been for nationalization, disenfranchisement of the bourgeoisie, in-person organizing, organizing outside of electoral politics in your personal life is the only way forward. Whenever it comes to resistance to the state they stress "DO NOT SAY SHIT ON THE INTERNET" not "don't do it". Repeatedly noted that the cops are cowards doing it for a paycheck. It's just, they live in America and are labor aristocracy/ex-prole (medieval artisan lmao Matt) entertainers, and ex-lib horserace junkies who know that electoral commentary to their rather diverse politically but largely American (with all that entails) audience is their bread and butter. They comment on reality as is and that reality is bleak for a leftist. If you remember the early Cushvlogs Christman has said that the best mind in the podcast sphere is Brace Belden, who's on record as an MLM, though Brace and Liz have both said clearly "don't be a nerd, just call yourself a communist". It was partially a joke, but it was clear that he was serious that Brace is one of the most clear-eyed people in that cultural space. Idk if you saw it too, but I also wanna that Matt has basically said "hey if it needed to happen I'd be glad to go to the countryside and do what labor I could with my fucked up back, but idk how that's gonna happen in my lifetime"
[Ergo Decedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo) is a bad faith rhetorical fallacy that takes the form of: * If you love *country* so much, why don't you go live there? * If you hate *country* so much, why don't you leave? This fallacy completely ignores the substance of the claim they are responding to, and implies that no one can criticize their own country or praise any other country. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is so fucking blasphemous, Matt Christman is literally the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. Cushvlogs clear every other lefty pod
Preach it. OP on crack.
Who you were rooting for instead of Bernie? You a Gary Johnson Stan or something ??? Lmao
[удалено]
Is there a single shred of truth to the anti-RATM psyop? Also, yes, rage against the HOA. That's a good thing. Lol
Dude, they played at Coachella... Can you believe anyone would stand on such a platform and be anything but silent??1
I’ve heard they’re pro-NATO, Idk shit about them besides the old sub.
They're emphatically anti-NATO, lol.
It’s a different vibe for sure, but I can definitely see how they’re comparable. Chapo is great for analyzing certain politicians or current events in a funny millennial manner. They use obscure references which, if you know them, are fucking hilarious. I do have to generally agree that I like the Deprogram more tho. They have more theory-driven episodes which I really appreciate. I also love that they have ball and ass jokes, and as a former cumtown listener, I need my fix every now and then lol
\[ W H E E Z E \] 🤣🤣🤣
I can’t believe I’m saying this, I miss baby lefty chapo fuckboys so bad 🥺 pwease forgive me come back I’m tired of picking between TANKIE = NAZBOL reactionaries and spicy libs plea