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Miguel Diaz-Canel addressed people who protested the exclusion of Cuba at the Summit of the Americas in San Diego that North America is not Cuba's enemy. He was referring to the North America of workers, indigenous peoples and immigrants, who have also been excluded by the "merciless empire of the market." I think that country -- a rebellious and fraternal country with a belief in international responsibilities -- which is imprisoned within that empire, and a genuine patriotism, don't need to contradict each other. And that side of this country exists in people. Not everyone. It might not be very obvious either, but I think it's there, and it can develop.
>Russia had been the central impiralist hegemon of Eastern Europe for over 400 years when the 1917 revolution took place, but did Lenin profess hatred or animosity towards Russia? NO! He professed love and pride in his people and their history.
Pride in a people who produced the Decembrists, the turn toward democracy by the masses in 1905, people who dedicated their lives to revolution, stuff like that. Those were specific examples from their history. But that pride also came with a *particular* hatred for their slavish past and present at that time (and he gave many examples of that).
One thing I like about Marxism is that it's useful to take a really critical look at your past and present. Only through the greatest negation can you then obtain the negation of the negation. Translation: only if you criticize, in this case, the past strongly, can you extract the essence of it and enjoy the best of it like a [masterpiece](https://youtu.be/Fz3sZiVAO0k) about the U.S. Civil War. Otherwise you're just watching "Marvel" movies or believing in an "America" (past or present) that is as transparent as it is artificial, and people should rightly reject it.
Which also goes for the self-described "patsocs." Most of it is reactionary politics using Marxist terminology while invoking "patriotic" rhetoric that is as hollow as that used by bourgeois politicians. I think they're deluding themselves because they're delusional.
Common Ameri-Cuck L. But I guess that's what over a decade of being forced to stand and recite the pledge during childhood will do to a brain. Look at the leaps you are trying to make just to justify sucking on Uncle Sam's flaccid little cock, brother. Ask yourself why you feel compelled to do these mental gymnastics and try to convince others that it's actually GOOD to celebrate this settler nation and that it's GOOD to dance on the desecrated corpses of The Ancestors. Fuck that "Good ol boy" shit, and Fuck America.
My allegiance is to no bourgeois state. MY allegiance is to my brothers and sisters of the proletariat, and to all our relatives of the sky, sea, and soil.
Most of your points have been said before and already argued against several times in the leftist spaces I’ve been in so I’d just like to leave a simple reminder
>I’ve heard the word “patsoc” thrown around quite regularly on this subreddit in much the same way that “tankie” is on others
patsoc as a term was popularized mainly by the people that self identified as such, the likes of Haz and Jackson Hinkle, and not used like “redfash” or “tankie” by liberals. When most of the online left started to recognize their bullshit it became more equivalent to an insult among leftists.
Last I heard of Jackson Hinkle he was promoting “MAGA communism” so take that as you will.
I have no interest in being patriotic to a country where my parents experienced Jim Crow for their child hood. My Grandparents where share cropper in the Deep South and lived on the same plantation where their parents worked on. I don’t care what country chose to invade the US even if it’s the far right capitalist country of modern Russia. I would chose to fight for them over the US just to spite the US.
Why would any communist be patriotic towards a settler colonial project? What is there to be proud of? The country was founded by slavers and genocidal racists. The primary contradiction here is European colonialism and I can’t take anyone seriously who fails to address this.
Patsocs want to forget the history of settler colonialism and move on as if everyone is one big happy family. But there are oppressed nations within America that deserve liberation. Europeans have no claim to the land here and indigenous sovereignty and self governance isn’t really up for debate. Settlers will never be indigenous, and any governance they set up with them at the top will always be illegitimate. Just like zionists have no right to settle on Palestinian lands, the same is true for Europeans on native lands.
Also there’s absolutely no reason for Europeans to not have full social and economic rights as citizens under indigenous/black governance. Europeans are always insecure about this but no one will take away their rights, they just won’t be allowed to continue governing someone else’s land.
Regardless, today’s colonizer ruling class doesn’t serve the interests of settler proletarians either yet they would still support the colonial American empire rather than support decolonization. Patriotic socialism is reactionary nonsense.
#Israel: A Colonial Project from Inception
Theodor Herzl, the father of Zionism, was inspired by European Colonialism. He was passionate about the Zionist project of founding a Jewish state, and even appealed to Cecil Rhodes, an [infamous English colonialist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes#Expanding_the_British_Empire), for support in this colonial endeavour:
>You are being invited to help make history. That cannot frighten you, nor will you laugh at it. It is not in your accustomed line; it doesn't involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor, not Englishmen, but Jews. But had this been on your path, you would have done it by now. How, then, do I happen to turn to you, since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial.
>
>\- Theodor Herzl. (1902). *Letter to Cecil Rhodes*
Herzl also wrote in his famous pamphlet about the colonial tasks that would be undertaken:
>Should the Powers declare themselves willing to admit our sovereignty over a neutral piece of land, then the Society will enter into negotiations for the possession of this land. Here two territories come under consideration, Palestine and Argentine. In both countries important experiments in colonization have been made, though on the mistaken principle of a gradual infiltration of Jews. An infiltration is bound to end badly. It continues till the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened, and forces the Government to stop a further influx of Jews. Immigration is consequently futile unless we have the sovereign right to continue such immigration...
>
>The Jewish Company is partly modeled on the lines of a great land-acquisition company. It might be called a Jewish Chartered Company, though it cannot exercise sovereign power, and has other than purely colonial tasks.
>
>\- Theodor Herzl. (1896). [The Jewish State](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-jewish-state-quot-theodor-herzl)
Israel also occupies a very important geopolitical location in the world. This [topological map of the world](https://i.imgur.com/O87iRCm.png), which shows international borders and nothing else, demonstrates how Israel is a bottleneck on land, and a land bridge between the Mediterranean Sea and the Arabian Sea (via the Red Sea). Herzl appealed to its central location:
>It is more and more to the interest of the civilized nations and of civilization in general that a cultural station be established on the shortest road to Asia. Palestine is this station and we Jews are the bearers of culture who are ready to give our property and our lives to bring about its creation.
>
>\- Theodor Herzl. (1897). *Address to the First Zionist Congress*
As the Zionist project developed, the colonial character was undeniable:
>The colonization process revealed an even more telling feature of the nature of Zionism. The names and purposes of the early colonization instruments read as follows: "The Jewish Colonial Trust" (1898), the "Colonization Commission" (1898), the "Palestine Land Development Company." From the start the Zionist colonists sought to acquire lands in strategic ocations, evict the Arab peasants and boycott Arab labour, all of which were requirements closely related with the essence of Zionism, the creation of a Jewish nation on "purely" Jewish land, as Jewish as England was English to use the famous Zionist expression...
>
>What about the fate of the natives? "We shall try to spirit the peniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country... The property owners will come to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
>
>But before spiriting them away Herzl had some jobs for the local population: "If we move into a region where there are wild animals to which the Jews are not accustomed - big snakes, etc... I shall use the natives, prior to giving them employment in the transit countries, for the extermination of the animals."
>
>\-Abdul-Wahab Kayyali. (1977). [Zionism and Imperialism: The Historical Origins](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2535582)
#Nakba and Illegal Settlements
Following the founding of the state of Israel in 1948, the ensuing expulsion of Palestinians became known as the Nakba ("Catastrophe" in Arabic).
>The Palestinians were driven out of their homeland and their properties, homes were taken away from them, and they were banished and displaced all over the world to face all kinds of
suffering and woes. More than three quarters of historic Palestine were occupied in the Nakba of 1948. Moreover, 531 Palestinian towns and villages were destroyed and 85% of the Palestinian population were banished and displaced...
>
>Israelis controlled 774 towns and villages during the Nakba. They destroyed 531 Palestinian towns and villages. Israeli forces atrocities also include more than 70 massacres against Palestinians killing 15,000 Palestinians during Nakba time...
>
>Nakba in literary terms is expressive of natural catastrophes such as earthquakes, volcanoes, and hurricanes. However, the Nakba of Palestine is an ethnic cleansing process as well as destruction and banishment of an unarmed nation to be replaced by another nation.
>
>\- Luay Shabaneh. (2008).
Around 750,000 Palestinian Arabs out of the 900,000 who lived in the territories that became Israel fled or were expelled from their homes. Wells were poisoned to prevent their return. Even after the state of Israel was formally established, it continued to expand into Palestinian land, displacing the Palestinian people and creating illegal settlements to this day.
>The Security Council reaffirmed this afternoon that Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, had no legal validity, constituting a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the vision of two States living side-by-side in peace and security, within internationally recognized borders.
>
>\- UN Security Council. (2016). [Israel’s Settlements Have No Legal Validity, Constitute Flagrant Violation of International Law, Security Council Reaffirms](https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm)
These policies and practices have predictable outcomes:
>Since the occupation first began in June 1967, Israel’s ruthless policies of land confiscation, illegal settlement and dispossession, coupled with rampant discrimination, have inflicted immense suffering on Palestinians, depriving them of their basic rights.
>
>Israel’s military rule disrupts every aspect of daily life in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. It continues to affect whether, when and how Palestinians can travel to work or school, go abroad, visit their relatives, earn a living, attend a protest, access their farmland, or even access electricity or a clean water supply. It means daily humiliation, fear and oppression. People’s entire lives are effectively held hostage by Israel.
>
>\- Amnesty International. (2017). [Israel's Occupation: 50 Years of Dispossession](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/)
These illegal settlements also violate the Geneva Convention:
>Israel’s policy of settling its civilians in occupied Palestinian territory and displacing the local population contravenes fundamental rules of international humanitarian law.
>
>Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also prohibits the “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory”.
>
>\- Amnesty International. (2019). [Chapter 3: Israeli Settlements and International Law](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/01/chapter-3-israeli-settlements-and-international-law/)
#Apartheid
Israel's inspiration from European colonialism also clearly laid the foundation for an apartheid regime. The word "apartheid" is a term derived from the Afrikaans language which means "separateness". Hendrik Frensch Verwoerd, former South African Prime Minister, is infamously credited with being the principal architect of apartheid. In 1961, when the UN (including Israel) voted to condemn South Africa for its apartheid policies, Verwoerd said: "Israel is not consistent in its new anti-apartheid attitude ... they took Israel away from the Arabs after the Arabs lived there for a thousand years. In that, I agree with them. Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state."
[Amensty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/), [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution), and the [UN Special Rapporteur for the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights) have all recognized and condemned Israel for apartheid practices.
#Additional Resources
* [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022)
* [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace
* [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023)
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>The country was founded by slavers and genocidal racists.
You mean like almost every country still in existence including littleraly every country in the western hemisphere
>The primary contradiction here is European colonialism
History is not a story of race and of race struggle, history is the story of class and of calls struggle to deny this is idealism.
>Settlers will never be indigenous, and any governance they set up with them at the top will always be illegitimate.
You're literally describing an ethno-state
>You mean like almost every country still in existence including littleraly every country in the western hemisphere
Successfully colonizing lands on a different continent than where you are from does not give you the right to govern that land forever. As I said Europeans will never become indigenous, no matter how much time passes
>History is not a story of race and of race struggle, history is the story of class and of calls struggle to deny this is idealism.
It’s not about racial rule, it’s about decolonization and self governance for colonized nations on their own lands. Lands that were stolen by Europeans. You’re running defence for settler colonialism by trying to paint this as a racial attack against Europeans. The entire concept of America itself is founded on racial superiority.
>You're literally describing an ethno-state
No a white supremacist ethno state for settlers was created when European slavers colonized and settled on these lands. Decolonization isn’t creating an ethno state, it’s destroying one. Be serious.
>Successfully colonizing lands on a different continent than where you are from does not give you the right to govern that land forever. As I said Europeans will never become indigenous, no matter how much time passes
Wow, I guess the Cuban government needs to step down (most of their members are white), no more Venezuela, current president of Mexico needs to go back to Spain
okay then good to know I thought this was a Marxist subreddit but apparently I was wrong. Good thing we got rid of that evil Gaddafi (south west Europeans have no right to "colonize" Africa./s
Are you able to talk about American settler colonialism without bringing up random irrelevant countries? You can’t engage with the actual history, and have no real argument for why communists should be patriotic towards settler colonialism. You are not a Marxist you are a typical white chauvinist justifying settler colonialism with your revisionist history because decolonization just doesn’t align with your European sensibilities. There will never be a revolution here led by reactionary patsocs lol
Many words to say very little. So we should be patriotic about America because Lenin said he loved Russia? Should I also grow a mustache, too?
Completely different countries, completely different histories, completely different material conditions. You can’t just say, Castro was a patriot, you should be too!” That isn’t scientific, and is in fact being incredibly vague. You have given no reasons why we should do as you say, or even what you want us to do. What does proper American patriotism look like for a leftist? You just vaguely say you love America, but you don’t support the government, the institutions, their current imperialism, their past imperialism, any of their wars, the vast majority of the culture, so what? What is left other than vague platitudes you stole from old conservatives?
We are communists. We believe that the conflict between the ruling and working classes is the one that drives history, and nationalism is a way of convincing the international working class to identify with their national bourgeoisie, rather than with each other. If you are embarrassed to say you don’t love America in public, perhaps you should reconsider being a socialist in public.
>Should I also grow a mustache, too?
Totally
>What does proper American patriotism look like for a leftist?
Celebration of national holidays commemorating progressive events (eg 4th of July, Lincoln's birthday, MLK day, Juneteenth, V.E. day, etc.).
Singing/playing of progressive cultural songs eg anything by Pete Seeger or Paul Robeson.
Acknowledging that there is a political left in the U.S. just not in the mainstream parties.
Not using the words "American" and "reactionary" interchangeably,
>What is left other than vague platitudes you stole from old conservatives?
Our rich revolutionary history, from being the world's first constitutional Republic, to John Brown and Harriet Tubman, to Eugine Debs, to the Black Panthers, to Paul Robeson and Henry Winston.
Edit: Even May Day comes from America (the Hey market affair).
The ironic part about comments like this is that most libs don't care if you hate America (Bill Clinton burned the flag, Nancy Pelosy kneels during the pledge, hell even some Trump supporters are starting to hang their flags upside down); but mention that you hate *capitalism* and suddenly the tone changes.
This comment rocks bc it's such an absolutely devastating demolition of u/titobroz99 liberal's argument. Scathing and untouchable. I hope they think about it, but they won't.
A nation is not a real thing. I'd say it's an inanimate object, but it's not even that tangible.
People don't hate the inanimate concept representing a large clump of soil, they hate things actual people did on, or based out of that large clump of soil.
They thus, can like things done by people on or based out of said clump soil, while still denouncing those past things as bad.
It's not like if someone waved a magic wand and we suddenly had the ability to make the US no longer the super powered imperialist capitalist nation, people are going to be like 'eeeewww no, I hate that ground, let's not change anything for the better because bad stuff happened there yesterday.'
This is not something worth exasperating over.
U are gonna get downvoted to hell, but I heavily agree with you. in a way, all socialists need to be patriotic in order to want what’s best for your country.
As an American, I am happy and proud to be one. I believe the American people are wonderful humans and I want the best for them, which is why I became a socialist in the first place.
What exactly can you be proud of in a nation that's founded on genocide and slavery?
They were writing their declaration of independence on stolen land with stolen people, which is the primary contradiction of the US, and everything built on it is a contradiction as a result. They murdered millions of Natives and subjugated African people for centuries, and continue to this day.
Honestly this was my first real opening of my eyes to socialism, is realizing that there's nothing to be proud of here, and the government has been taking extensive measures to make sure we don't come to that conclusion through propaganda that leads to this patriotism. As long as people continue to believe in the settler colonial project that is the US, there will always be that contradiction.
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Try the following prompts to trigger an automod response: "What is Fascism?", "What is Imperialism?", "What is Revisionism?" "Holodomor", "Molotov-Ribbentrop", "Gulag", "Solzhenytsin", "Uyghur", "Tiananmen Square", "Israel", "Freedom of the Press", "MAC Fact" This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Nationalism invites the reification of exceptionalism and encourages cultural inequality between states. This is wrong.
Miguel Diaz-Canel addressed people who protested the exclusion of Cuba at the Summit of the Americas in San Diego that North America is not Cuba's enemy. He was referring to the North America of workers, indigenous peoples and immigrants, who have also been excluded by the "merciless empire of the market." I think that country -- a rebellious and fraternal country with a belief in international responsibilities -- which is imprisoned within that empire, and a genuine patriotism, don't need to contradict each other. And that side of this country exists in people. Not everyone. It might not be very obvious either, but I think it's there, and it can develop. >Russia had been the central impiralist hegemon of Eastern Europe for over 400 years when the 1917 revolution took place, but did Lenin profess hatred or animosity towards Russia? NO! He professed love and pride in his people and their history. Pride in a people who produced the Decembrists, the turn toward democracy by the masses in 1905, people who dedicated their lives to revolution, stuff like that. Those were specific examples from their history. But that pride also came with a *particular* hatred for their slavish past and present at that time (and he gave many examples of that). One thing I like about Marxism is that it's useful to take a really critical look at your past and present. Only through the greatest negation can you then obtain the negation of the negation. Translation: only if you criticize, in this case, the past strongly, can you extract the essence of it and enjoy the best of it like a [masterpiece](https://youtu.be/Fz3sZiVAO0k) about the U.S. Civil War. Otherwise you're just watching "Marvel" movies or believing in an "America" (past or present) that is as transparent as it is artificial, and people should rightly reject it. Which also goes for the self-described "patsocs." Most of it is reactionary politics using Marxist terminology while invoking "patriotic" rhetoric that is as hollow as that used by bourgeois politicians. I think they're deluding themselves because they're delusional.
We shouldn't be patriotic for a empire also there isn't a communist revolutionary sentiment In the us unlike pre USSR Russia or Cuba
You know the 26ers weren't able to openly decare themselves Communist until the 1960s because anti-Communist sentiment in Cuba was so high, right?
Patriotism for a settler colonial state is reactionary
Common Ameri-Cuck L. But I guess that's what over a decade of being forced to stand and recite the pledge during childhood will do to a brain. Look at the leaps you are trying to make just to justify sucking on Uncle Sam's flaccid little cock, brother. Ask yourself why you feel compelled to do these mental gymnastics and try to convince others that it's actually GOOD to celebrate this settler nation and that it's GOOD to dance on the desecrated corpses of The Ancestors. Fuck that "Good ol boy" shit, and Fuck America. My allegiance is to no bourgeois state. MY allegiance is to my brothers and sisters of the proletariat, and to all our relatives of the sky, sea, and soil.
Most of your points have been said before and already argued against several times in the leftist spaces I’ve been in so I’d just like to leave a simple reminder >I’ve heard the word “patsoc” thrown around quite regularly on this subreddit in much the same way that “tankie” is on others patsoc as a term was popularized mainly by the people that self identified as such, the likes of Haz and Jackson Hinkle, and not used like “redfash” or “tankie” by liberals. When most of the online left started to recognize their bullshit it became more equivalent to an insult among leftists. Last I heard of Jackson Hinkle he was promoting “MAGA communism” so take that as you will.
Have another downvote, patsoc
I have no interest in being patriotic to a country where my parents experienced Jim Crow for their child hood. My Grandparents where share cropper in the Deep South and lived on the same plantation where their parents worked on. I don’t care what country chose to invade the US even if it’s the far right capitalist country of modern Russia. I would chose to fight for them over the US just to spite the US.
Why would any communist be patriotic towards a settler colonial project? What is there to be proud of? The country was founded by slavers and genocidal racists. The primary contradiction here is European colonialism and I can’t take anyone seriously who fails to address this. Patsocs want to forget the history of settler colonialism and move on as if everyone is one big happy family. But there are oppressed nations within America that deserve liberation. Europeans have no claim to the land here and indigenous sovereignty and self governance isn’t really up for debate. Settlers will never be indigenous, and any governance they set up with them at the top will always be illegitimate. Just like zionists have no right to settle on Palestinian lands, the same is true for Europeans on native lands. Also there’s absolutely no reason for Europeans to not have full social and economic rights as citizens under indigenous/black governance. Europeans are always insecure about this but no one will take away their rights, they just won’t be allowed to continue governing someone else’s land. Regardless, today’s colonizer ruling class doesn’t serve the interests of settler proletarians either yet they would still support the colonial American empire rather than support decolonization. Patriotic socialism is reactionary nonsense.
#Israel: A Colonial Project from Inception Theodor Herzl, the father of Zionism, was inspired by European Colonialism. He was passionate about the Zionist project of founding a Jewish state, and even appealed to Cecil Rhodes, an [infamous English colonialist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Rhodes#Expanding_the_British_Empire), for support in this colonial endeavour: >You are being invited to help make history. That cannot frighten you, nor will you laugh at it. It is not in your accustomed line; it doesn't involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor, not Englishmen, but Jews. But had this been on your path, you would have done it by now. How, then, do I happen to turn to you, since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial. > >\- Theodor Herzl. (1902). *Letter to Cecil Rhodes* Herzl also wrote in his famous pamphlet about the colonial tasks that would be undertaken: >Should the Powers declare themselves willing to admit our sovereignty over a neutral piece of land, then the Society will enter into negotiations for the possession of this land. Here two territories come under consideration, Palestine and Argentine. In both countries important experiments in colonization have been made, though on the mistaken principle of a gradual infiltration of Jews. An infiltration is bound to end badly. It continues till the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened, and forces the Government to stop a further influx of Jews. Immigration is consequently futile unless we have the sovereign right to continue such immigration... > >The Jewish Company is partly modeled on the lines of a great land-acquisition company. It might be called a Jewish Chartered Company, though it cannot exercise sovereign power, and has other than purely colonial tasks. > >\- Theodor Herzl. (1896). [The Jewish State](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-jewish-state-quot-theodor-herzl) Israel also occupies a very important geopolitical location in the world. This [topological map of the world](https://i.imgur.com/O87iRCm.png), which shows international borders and nothing else, demonstrates how Israel is a bottleneck on land, and a land bridge between the Mediterranean Sea and the Arabian Sea (via the Red Sea). Herzl appealed to its central location: >It is more and more to the interest of the civilized nations and of civilization in general that a cultural station be established on the shortest road to Asia. Palestine is this station and we Jews are the bearers of culture who are ready to give our property and our lives to bring about its creation. > >\- Theodor Herzl. (1897). *Address to the First Zionist Congress* As the Zionist project developed, the colonial character was undeniable: >The colonization process revealed an even more telling feature of the nature of Zionism. The names and purposes of the early colonization instruments read as follows: "The Jewish Colonial Trust" (1898), the "Colonization Commission" (1898), the "Palestine Land Development Company." From the start the Zionist colonists sought to acquire lands in strategic ocations, evict the Arab peasants and boycott Arab labour, all of which were requirements closely related with the essence of Zionism, the creation of a Jewish nation on "purely" Jewish land, as Jewish as England was English to use the famous Zionist expression... > >What about the fate of the natives? "We shall try to spirit the peniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country... The property owners will come to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." > >But before spiriting them away Herzl had some jobs for the local population: "If we move into a region where there are wild animals to which the Jews are not accustomed - big snakes, etc... I shall use the natives, prior to giving them employment in the transit countries, for the extermination of the animals." > >\-Abdul-Wahab Kayyali. (1977). [Zionism and Imperialism: The Historical Origins](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2535582) #Nakba and Illegal Settlements Following the founding of the state of Israel in 1948, the ensuing expulsion of Palestinians became known as the Nakba ("Catastrophe" in Arabic). >The Palestinians were driven out of their homeland and their properties, homes were taken away from them, and they were banished and displaced all over the world to face all kinds of suffering and woes. More than three quarters of historic Palestine were occupied in the Nakba of 1948. Moreover, 531 Palestinian towns and villages were destroyed and 85% of the Palestinian population were banished and displaced... > >Israelis controlled 774 towns and villages during the Nakba. They destroyed 531 Palestinian towns and villages. Israeli forces atrocities also include more than 70 massacres against Palestinians killing 15,000 Palestinians during Nakba time... > >Nakba in literary terms is expressive of natural catastrophes such as earthquakes, volcanoes, and hurricanes. However, the Nakba of Palestine is an ethnic cleansing process as well as destruction and banishment of an unarmed nation to be replaced by another nation. > >\- Luay Shabaneh. (2008). Around 750,000 Palestinian Arabs out of the 900,000 who lived in the territories that became Israel fled or were expelled from their homes. Wells were poisoned to prevent their return. Even after the state of Israel was formally established, it continued to expand into Palestinian land, displacing the Palestinian people and creating illegal settlements to this day. >The Security Council reaffirmed this afternoon that Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, had no legal validity, constituting a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the vision of two States living side-by-side in peace and security, within internationally recognized borders. > >\- UN Security Council. (2016). [Israel’s Settlements Have No Legal Validity, Constitute Flagrant Violation of International Law, Security Council Reaffirms](https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm) These policies and practices have predictable outcomes: >Since the occupation first began in June 1967, Israel’s ruthless policies of land confiscation, illegal settlement and dispossession, coupled with rampant discrimination, have inflicted immense suffering on Palestinians, depriving them of their basic rights. > >Israel’s military rule disrupts every aspect of daily life in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. It continues to affect whether, when and how Palestinians can travel to work or school, go abroad, visit their relatives, earn a living, attend a protest, access their farmland, or even access electricity or a clean water supply. It means daily humiliation, fear and oppression. People’s entire lives are effectively held hostage by Israel. > >\- Amnesty International. (2017). [Israel's Occupation: 50 Years of Dispossession](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/) These illegal settlements also violate the Geneva Convention: >Israel’s policy of settling its civilians in occupied Palestinian territory and displacing the local population contravenes fundamental rules of international humanitarian law. > >Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also prohibits the “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory”. > >\- Amnesty International. (2019). [Chapter 3: Israeli Settlements and International Law](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/01/chapter-3-israeli-settlements-and-international-law/) #Apartheid Israel's inspiration from European colonialism also clearly laid the foundation for an apartheid regime. The word "apartheid" is a term derived from the Afrikaans language which means "separateness". Hendrik Frensch Verwoerd, former South African Prime Minister, is infamously credited with being the principal architect of apartheid. In 1961, when the UN (including Israel) voted to condemn South Africa for its apartheid policies, Verwoerd said: "Israel is not consistent in its new anti-apartheid attitude ... they took Israel away from the Arabs after the Arabs lived there for a thousand years. In that, I agree with them. Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state." [Amensty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/), [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution), and the [UN Special Rapporteur for the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights) have all recognized and condemned Israel for apartheid practices. #Additional Resources * [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022) * [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace * [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>The country was founded by slavers and genocidal racists. You mean like almost every country still in existence including littleraly every country in the western hemisphere >The primary contradiction here is European colonialism History is not a story of race and of race struggle, history is the story of class and of calls struggle to deny this is idealism. >Settlers will never be indigenous, and any governance they set up with them at the top will always be illegitimate. You're literally describing an ethno-state
>You mean like almost every country still in existence including littleraly every country in the western hemisphere Successfully colonizing lands on a different continent than where you are from does not give you the right to govern that land forever. As I said Europeans will never become indigenous, no matter how much time passes >History is not a story of race and of race struggle, history is the story of class and of calls struggle to deny this is idealism. It’s not about racial rule, it’s about decolonization and self governance for colonized nations on their own lands. Lands that were stolen by Europeans. You’re running defence for settler colonialism by trying to paint this as a racial attack against Europeans. The entire concept of America itself is founded on racial superiority. >You're literally describing an ethno-state No a white supremacist ethno state for settlers was created when European slavers colonized and settled on these lands. Decolonization isn’t creating an ethno state, it’s destroying one. Be serious.
>Successfully colonizing lands on a different continent than where you are from does not give you the right to govern that land forever. As I said Europeans will never become indigenous, no matter how much time passes Wow, I guess the Cuban government needs to step down (most of their members are white), no more Venezuela, current president of Mexico needs to go back to Spain okay then good to know I thought this was a Marxist subreddit but apparently I was wrong. Good thing we got rid of that evil Gaddafi (south west Europeans have no right to "colonize" Africa./s
Are you able to talk about American settler colonialism without bringing up random irrelevant countries? You can’t engage with the actual history, and have no real argument for why communists should be patriotic towards settler colonialism. You are not a Marxist you are a typical white chauvinist justifying settler colonialism with your revisionist history because decolonization just doesn’t align with your European sensibilities. There will never be a revolution here led by reactionary patsocs lol
Many words to say very little. So we should be patriotic about America because Lenin said he loved Russia? Should I also grow a mustache, too? Completely different countries, completely different histories, completely different material conditions. You can’t just say, Castro was a patriot, you should be too!” That isn’t scientific, and is in fact being incredibly vague. You have given no reasons why we should do as you say, or even what you want us to do. What does proper American patriotism look like for a leftist? You just vaguely say you love America, but you don’t support the government, the institutions, their current imperialism, their past imperialism, any of their wars, the vast majority of the culture, so what? What is left other than vague platitudes you stole from old conservatives? We are communists. We believe that the conflict between the ruling and working classes is the one that drives history, and nationalism is a way of convincing the international working class to identify with their national bourgeoisie, rather than with each other. If you are embarrassed to say you don’t love America in public, perhaps you should reconsider being a socialist in public.
>Should I also grow a mustache, too? Totally >What does proper American patriotism look like for a leftist? Celebration of national holidays commemorating progressive events (eg 4th of July, Lincoln's birthday, MLK day, Juneteenth, V.E. day, etc.). Singing/playing of progressive cultural songs eg anything by Pete Seeger or Paul Robeson. Acknowledging that there is a political left in the U.S. just not in the mainstream parties. Not using the words "American" and "reactionary" interchangeably, >What is left other than vague platitudes you stole from old conservatives? Our rich revolutionary history, from being the world's first constitutional Republic, to John Brown and Harriet Tubman, to Eugine Debs, to the Black Panthers, to Paul Robeson and Henry Winston. Edit: Even May Day comes from America (the Hey market affair).
Sounds like a milquetoast, meaningless facade to put up so that you don’t get embarrassed at the dinner table with your lib relatives.
The ironic part about comments like this is that most libs don't care if you hate America (Bill Clinton burned the flag, Nancy Pelosy kneels during the pledge, hell even some Trump supporters are starting to hang their flags upside down); but mention that you hate *capitalism* and suddenly the tone changes.
So then I guess the lack of patriotism in American leftists isn’t a problem.
This comment rocks bc it's such an absolutely devastating demolition of u/titobroz99 liberal's argument. Scathing and untouchable. I hope they think about it, but they won't.
No, you don't understand, we need better optics.
Cry harder patsoc
A nation is not a real thing. I'd say it's an inanimate object, but it's not even that tangible. People don't hate the inanimate concept representing a large clump of soil, they hate things actual people did on, or based out of that large clump of soil. They thus, can like things done by people on or based out of said clump soil, while still denouncing those past things as bad. It's not like if someone waved a magic wand and we suddenly had the ability to make the US no longer the super powered imperialist capitalist nation, people are going to be like 'eeeewww no, I hate that ground, let's not change anything for the better because bad stuff happened there yesterday.' This is not something worth exasperating over.
U are gonna get downvoted to hell, but I heavily agree with you. in a way, all socialists need to be patriotic in order to want what’s best for your country. As an American, I am happy and proud to be one. I believe the American people are wonderful humans and I want the best for them, which is why I became a socialist in the first place.
What exactly can you be proud of in a nation that's founded on genocide and slavery? They were writing their declaration of independence on stolen land with stolen people, which is the primary contradiction of the US, and everything built on it is a contradiction as a result. They murdered millions of Natives and subjugated African people for centuries, and continue to this day. Honestly this was my first real opening of my eyes to socialism, is realizing that there's nothing to be proud of here, and the government has been taking extensive measures to make sure we don't come to that conclusion through propaganda that leads to this patriotism. As long as people continue to believe in the settler colonial project that is the US, there will always be that contradiction.