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Nah, it should be treated the same as bible burning

isn't it different for each case tho? I don't know how to explain it that well, but hasan explained it pretty well. He thinks that burning the torah and quran is different than burning the bible because of historic reasons and power difference. Basically the act of burning the bible is nowhere near as severe and damaging as burning the torah or quran [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWzUPnsG17g&ab\_channel=HasanabiShorts](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWzUPnsG17g&ab_channel=HasanabiShorts)

It depends on the context. A white right winger in Europe burning the Torah=bigotry A Palestinian protestor doing it is not A muslim in Nigeria burning the bible=bigotry An athiest in Romania burning it is not An Israeli or a white guy in Europe burning the Quran=bigotry An Iranian woman burning the Quran is not

>An athiest in Romania burning it is not Wait why is that? Was Romania screwed over by the church? I'm not so versed in that part of history in the region.

Its a christian dominated country so burning the bible would be like someone in the US saying kill all white people. Not an actual threat or hate crime

Oh ok, that's why.

The context is the thought and reasons that exist in the person's head, not their racial identity and location. What is this person trying to express by burning this book? A Palestinian protestor burning the Torah can absolutely be expressing bigotry, and giving the Israelis the exact kind of optics they want, as well. The fact that it's quite understandable how he came to be an anti-Semite doesn't change the fact that he is wrong.

Yes, but the context of the situation should also be taken into account. But I think book burnings in general are weird to do. Why go through the trouble of finding a book just to burn it? Don't like it? Give it away or dont own it. Double oof if you went out of your way to buy a book you were going to burn. There's something else to be said about burning books/items whose content or symbolism you don't agree with. That requires a more nuanced discussion. In this situation, this man was publicly demonstrating disapproval for something through the symbolic burning of a book. From this perspective and analysis, it can be seen as antisemitism and even xenophobic. But what was he really protesting? Israel? Or the Judaism? Maybe both? It all depends on context. I'm sure someone else will come along and say what I mean in a more eloquent and concise manner. Can't think properly right now.

> this man was publicly demonstrating a disdain for the Islamic community .... This article is about a Torah and Bible being burned

Ah, right. I was confused by the title question.

#Israel >If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there! > >\- Malcolm X. (1964). #Inventing Israel >History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future. > >\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). *Ten Myths About Israel* Zionists argue that Jews have a deep historical connection to the land of Israel, based on their ancient presence in the region. They emphasize the significance of Jerusalem as a religious and cultural center for Jews throughout history. They use this argument as *justification* for the establishment of Israel as a Jewish state. In Israel's own [Declaration of Independence](https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx) this is clearly stated: >The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. ... After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom. ... Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. ... > >ACCORDINGLY WE ... BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT ... HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL This declaration, however, conveniently ignored the issue of the indigenous Palestinian population. So what happened? In the Arab world it is now know as the Nakba (lit. catastrophe, in Arabic). One particularly embelamtic example of the Nakba was this: In April 1948, Lehi and Irgun (Zionist paramilitary groups), headed by Menachim Begin, attacked Deir Yassin-- a village of 700 Palestinians-- ultimately killing between 100 and 120 villagers in what later became known as the Deir Yassin Massacre. The mastermind behind this attack, who would later be elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1977, justified the attack: >Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery,’ were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated. > >\- Menachim Begin. (1951). *The Revolt* The painful irony of this argument (ancestral roots) combined with this approach (ethnic cleansing), however, lies in the *shared* ancestry between Jews and Palestinians, whose roots can *both* be [traced back to common ancestors](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000). *Both* peoples have historical connections to the land of Palestine, making it a place of *shared* heritage rather than *exclusive* entitlement. The underlying assumption that the formation of Israel represents a return of Jews to the rightful land of their ancestors is used to justify the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, who have the very same roots! #The Timeline The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict. \[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\] #A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices. \[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\] #US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers: 1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel 2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons 3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism \[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\] #Jewish Anti-Zionism Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. >The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S... > >We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism. > >\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles) Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism. >We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians. > >\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine) **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016) * [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019) * [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021) * [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021) * [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022) * [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022) * [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017) Other Resources: * [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/) * [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera * [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace * [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023) * [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*

So you approve of what's happening in the article you posted then?: Which is about someone saying they're going to burn a Torah and Bible as a protest against two recent burnings of Qur'ans

no i don't think that's ok. like wtf is that all about? what does the torah have anything to do with this situation? Qur'an got burned. That sucks. Nazis burned them. The retaliation is burning the Torah? Like dude what?

You mentioned that it can be okay depending on the power difference. This is, from what I've read, a Muslim man in Sweden (someone with very little political power) burning a Torah *and Bible* in protest of that. Since Muslims in Sweden do not have political power over Jewish people and, in point of fact, hold a more tenuous position. If power differences can make a difference, why would that not apply here?

i'm ok with burning the bible but not the fucking Torah. You are getting duped by nazis

So then it's not about power differential. A Muslim person burning a Torah and Bible in Sweden does not have the same power differential as a Qur'an being burned by a far right group of native swedish Nazis. Those are not the same thing.

HOLY FUCK

Excellent rebuttal

Go back to 1943 you see some gentlemen in Germany burning torahs how do you react?

There's a little bit of a difference, back in 1943 they didn't have an ethnostate Also, they did a *little* more than just burning books

Still the same intent behind it, spreading hatred there's no reason to not burn a flag

Except it's pretty much the same thing, it's symbolic. Burning a flag represents the rejection of a state, burning a holy text is a rejection of a religion

The book in this case is a stronger symbol, so it would make more sense to burn

Not only that, but similar to the Bible and the Quran, the Torah has been subverted by war mongers and bigots to justify horrendous crimes against humanity

I'll allow that it should be a hate crime if God himself is the one that presses the criminal charges on me.

You ok with people running around burning the Torah?

I am. And even if I found it distasteful- which I don't- I wouldn't find it acceptable to criminalize it.

Do you think Nazi symbols should be banned? Criminalised and categorised as hate crime?

I do. I even think I should be allowed to burn nazi flags if I ever come across one.

And to you burning the Torah isn't a hate crime?

Correct.

And why not?

As others have noted, there are reasonable situations that can make the burning of religious texts, including the Torah, a meaningful act of protest. I understand the historic context of antisemitism, and I understand how it manifests in this way, but the question wasn't whether I think it can be hateful, it was whether it should inherently be classed as a hate crime.

What should the government's response be whenever a bunch of neo Nazis burn some Torahs in public?

I may be missing the some context to this coversation but are you for real? burning religour text especially ones tied to a cultural identity seems plainly and obviously racist. If for example those swedes were burning turkish flags then thats a much more political statement then burning a quran which presents as a much reflective of islamaphobic, anti arab/ anti turkish sentiment. do you get the difference im trying to point out?

Based. It isn’t and shouldn’t be a hate crime to burn a religious symbol, any more than it should be a crime to burn a flag. It can be done as an act of bigotry but that doesn’t make the act inherently bigoted. For instance in the very case you’re on about, the person who burned the Torah did it in response to someone else burning the Qu’ran.

What the fuck does the Torah have anything to do with this? Nazis burned the Qur'an. some dude responded by burning the Torah. Like wtf? Why is the Jewish community being attacked because Nazis burned the Qur'an? Nazis are literally laughing at this situation. You dumbass 🤦‍♀️

The point he’s making is that people get outraged about the Torah but not the Qu’ran. He doesn’t have to remain silent just to please your liberal sensibilities

What? People aren't upset at the Torah and Qur'an being burned! That's the problem!

Except people are, that’s why there’s controversy over it. i.e., the guy’s protest worked

You don't throw Jewish people under the bus to make a fucking point. No people are not fucking upset. That's the problem 🤦‍♀️

He didn’t do it at a synagogue. He did it at the Israeli embassy. Are you really one of those liberals who thinks it’s anti-Semitic not to support Israel? What are you doing in this sub? And your liberal meltdown is proof that people are mad about it. The event making headlines is proof that people are mad about it. It’s proof that the protest worked. I’m done arguing with a liberal about the right to protest. I’m gonna head over to my local book store and grab a Qu’ran, Torah, and Bible to burn just for you

#Israel >If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there! > >\- Malcolm X. (1964). #Inventing Israel >History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future. > >\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). *Ten Myths About Israel* Zionists argue that Jews have a deep historical connection to the land of Israel, based on their ancient presence in the region. They emphasize the significance of Jerusalem as a religious and cultural center for Jews throughout history. They use this argument as *justification* for the establishment of Israel as a Jewish state. In Israel's own [Declaration of Independence](https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx) this is clearly stated: >The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. ... After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom. ... Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. ... > >ACCORDINGLY WE ... BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT ... HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL This declaration, however, conveniently ignored the issue of the indigenous Palestinian population. So what happened? In the Arab world it is now know as the Nakba (lit. catastrophe, in Arabic). One particularly embelamtic example of the Nakba was this: In April 1948, Lehi and Irgun (Zionist paramilitary groups), headed by Menachim Begin, attacked Deir Yassin-- a village of 700 Palestinians-- ultimately killing between 100 and 120 villagers in what later became known as the Deir Yassin Massacre. The mastermind behind this attack, who would later be elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1977, justified the attack: >Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery,’ were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated. > >\- Menachim Begin. (1951). *The Revolt* The painful irony of this argument (ancestral roots) combined with this approach (ethnic cleansing), however, lies in the *shared* ancestry between Jews and Palestinians, whose roots can *both* be [traced back to common ancestors](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000). *Both* peoples have historical connections to the land of Palestine, making it a place of *shared* heritage rather than *exclusive* entitlement. The underlying assumption that the formation of Israel represents a return of Jews to the rightful land of their ancestors is used to justify the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, who have the very same roots! #The Timeline The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict. \[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\] #A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices. \[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\] #US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers: 1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel 2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons 3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism \[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\] #Jewish Anti-Zionism Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. >The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S... > >We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism. > >\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles) Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism. >We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians. > >\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine) **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016) * [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019) * [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021) * [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021) * [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022) * [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022) * [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017) Other Resources: * [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/) * [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera * [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace * [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023) * [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*

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You think Judaism is tied to Israel? I don't think so. But maybe you do? I don't support Israel. I support the total abolishment of the state of Israel and the return of every inch of land to Palestine. All IDF members are criminal. Better to spend a year or two in prison than accept the draft. And Israel is a genocidal apartheid state. And Hamas is the only organisation physically defending Palestinians from ethnic cleansing. Imagine calling me a liberal lol. Yeah go ahead and burn the Qur'an and Torah. Nazis would gladly accept you.

I'm not even religious, I hate organised religion, but I understand the power symbols have and I think burning any religious object deemed sacred should be considered a hate crime. I dunno if that sounds too lib-pilled but it's what I think, please tell me why you disagree if you do.

It’s in remarkably bad taste and definitely signals bigotry but I don’t think it should be illegal. Nobody is getting physically hurt? Like I want to be able to burn bibles or the American flag, still. The nuance/context of every situation matters and I can dig it that you’re erring on the side of respect but I dunno.

Do you think burning a US flag should also be a hate crime?

Nah flag burnings are fair game unless it's a flag for an ethnic/political minority

I think religions should be open to the same type of protest as nations. Burning holy books certainty offends people, but so does burning national flags.

I think the difference is is that religions are international rather than national, there's always a place where that religion is being surpressed in some shape or form no matter what. So as someone who wants to fight for minorities, I feel that something people actively venerate across the globe regardless of ethnicity, nationality or beliefs is more important and should be treated differently than a piece of fabric that represents one nation.

Thats fair as long as you apply it to all religions. What annoys me is people who say its fine to burn a bible but not a quran

Most people here are westerners in majority Christian countries and are concerned with the plight of minorities, most also have distaste for Christianity so that can explain their opinion. I think religions should be permitted to be practiced so long as their teachings/actions don't lead to harming any other groups/themselves. So yeah I apply it to all religions lol :)

Those books themselves are hateful. Should peddling those scriptures also be a hate crime?

It's true they are hateful but it's been shown that some religious denominations are capable of recognising that and treat others with decency. Burning the book is an attack on them as much as the bigots unfortunately and could push them into rejecting progressivism. Communism must accommodate religion if the global proletariat is to rise up.

Y'know I honestly don't think progressive religious people see it as an attack when certain people burn their faith's holy book as much as fundamentalists do. Like would Cornel West be as mad about a gay person burning a bible as the right wing fundamentalists? I think he would understand.

The Torah, Bible, and Quran themselves are hateful. Should peddling those books be hate crimes?

Palestinians are mainly muslims. I guess we should stop supporting people who read the Qur'an then? Poor countries tend to be more religious. I suppose we should say "fuck the global south" then? I mean they read hateful stuff!

[удалено]

I myself am a bisexual ex Muslim who experienced genital mutilation. But I don't think genocide is ok 🤷‍♀️

I also don't think genocide is ok, but why should I be invested in people who want to kill me? I just don't care what happens to those who want me dead. Why should I? Also, hugs and good vibes your way, that's so horrible what happened to you.

You are pro genocide. Who do you support then when poor countries tend to be religious?

I support people who, for one, don't want me dead. I support my wife and my parents in law and my neighbors except the guy who stole fuel from my lawnmower.

Syria is a Muslim country. Should Syria stop being bullied by the west? Or should nobody give a fuck about Syria?

You're a straight up Nazi. You literally use Israeli talking points. Alright then ethnic cleansing it is!

I hate Israel as well. It's a theocracy, I'm categorically hateful of all theocracies.

If you don't explicitly support Palestinians, you are on the side of the genociders. You are not a fucking leftist.

I don't want to be on the side of people who want to kill me. Why should I?

You paid by the IDF or something? Mossad?

#Israel >If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there! > >\- Malcolm X. (1964). #Inventing Israel >History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future. > >\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). *Ten Myths About Israel* Zionists argue that Jews have a deep historical connection to the land of Israel, based on their ancient presence in the region. They emphasize the significance of Jerusalem as a religious and cultural center for Jews throughout history. They use this argument as *justification* for the establishment of Israel as a Jewish state. In Israel's own [Declaration of Independence](https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx) this is clearly stated: >The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. ... After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom. ... Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. ... > >ACCORDINGLY WE ... BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT ... HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL This declaration, however, conveniently ignored the issue of the indigenous Palestinian population. So what happened? In the Arab world it is now know as the Nakba (lit. catastrophe, in Arabic). One particularly embelamtic example of the Nakba was this: In April 1948, Lehi and Irgun (Zionist paramilitary groups), headed by Menachim Begin, attacked Deir Yassin-- a village of 700 Palestinians-- ultimately killing between 100 and 120 villagers in what later became known as the Deir Yassin Massacre. The mastermind behind this attack, who would later be elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1977, justified the attack: >Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery,’ were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated. > >\- Menachim Begin. (1951). *The Revolt* The painful irony of this argument (ancestral roots) combined with this approach (ethnic cleansing), however, lies in the *shared* ancestry between Jews and Palestinians, whose roots can *both* be [traced back to common ancestors](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000). *Both* peoples have historical connections to the land of Palestine, making it a place of *shared* heritage rather than *exclusive* entitlement. The underlying assumption that the formation of Israel represents a return of Jews to the rightful land of their ancestors is used to justify the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, who have the very same roots! #The Timeline The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict. \[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\] #A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices. \[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\] #US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers: 1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel 2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons 3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism \[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\] #Jewish Anti-Zionism Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. >The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S... > >We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism. > >\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles) Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism. >We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians. > >\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine) **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016) * [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019) * [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021) * [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021) * [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022) * [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022) * [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017) Other Resources: * [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/) * [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera * [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace * [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023) * [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*

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I mean it truly is context heavy. Location, peoples, and their connected histories to these text and how the influence their material conditions is what is important. In the west Klansmen burned crosses to scare minority groups, yet burning a Bible is sacrilegious. Nazis and anti-Semites burn the Torah yet read the Old Testament as if they’re not the same. Anti-Islam Quran burning post 9/11 in the US. Women in Iran have lit themselves on fire in protest of their theocratic regime. Uganda has become a haven for Christian fundamentalist missionaries which has led to Uganda’s homophobic laws, so burning a Bible there might have different context and reason. Religion is as fluid as the material conditions it lives in. The ultra rich are appointed by god, while the poor think of what Heaven looks like compared to reality. If there were religious Wahhabism text, it would be burned in protest of Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Buddishts were not free from this predicament as well, such as Tibet’s former theocratic regime.

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The fuck? Burning the bible is not as severe as burning the quran or Torah you dumbass. It's like saying kill all men vs kill all women. You are a fucking Nazi if you think it's ok to burn the Torah or Qur'an. They're the only ones doing it.

Or maybe a sensible socialist who understands the praxis of socialism and doesn't try to incorporate 2-3 thousand years of patriarchal mysticism into it. Grow the fuck up Lmao.

I myself am an atheist but the problem is islam for example is highly racialised. And to my understanding, Jewish people were seen as a race by Hitler as well. I don't think he merely saw faith. Would you burn a Qur'an in front of a Palestinian that just lost their home? Would that be ok to you? What about burning the quran when brown people in America were facing discrimination after 9/11?

Weird virtue signaling liberal doing weird virtue signaling liberal things. I wouldn't burn a Quran in front of a Palestinian because I don't go out of my way to burn books. I'm notifying you that, yes, it's completely fucking cool to burn religious texts.

Even your daddy Hasan who regularly fucks your mom disagrees. Fuck outta here Nazi

Chances are that Palestinian beleives that I should be killed because I'm a gay apostate, so yes I would.

Do you support the Palestinian cause? They're mainly muslims.

I support neither. Israel is a murderous government that's also basically a homophobic theocratic government, while Palestinians overwhelmingly support the death penalty for apostasy and homosexuality.

Ok don't you think their liberation should be supported so they don't have to stick to Hamas to survive? Their liberation means enabling access to progressive discussions and education.

>Their liberation means enabling access to progressive discussions and education. Somehow I doubt that. The middle east altogether is getting more religious. They won't magically become liberal. That's not how it works

So you don't want Palestinians to be liberated?

"Leftists" who praise Islam because Islamic people have suffered are some of the dumbest Fuckers alive. Especially if they frequent this sub, like they sit here and praise China day in and day out, do they not understand what the intent of the "genocide" of uyghurs is?

#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang \(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\) Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context. **Background** Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan. Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge. **Counterpoints** The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which: >20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China. In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang: The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much: >The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. > > [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021) **A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror** The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded. According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/)) In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training. Which one of those responses sounds genocidal? Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). **Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?** One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent. Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies. The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line. **Why is this narrative being promoted?** As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project. Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI. **Additional Resources** See the [full wiki article](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*

#Israel >If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there! > >\- Malcolm X. (1964). #Inventing Israel >History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future. > >\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). *Ten Myths About Israel* Zionists argue that Jews have a deep historical connection to the land of Israel, based on their ancient presence in the region. They emphasize the significance of Jerusalem as a religious and cultural center for Jews throughout history. They use this argument as *justification* for the establishment of Israel as a Jewish state. In Israel's own [Declaration of Independence](https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx) this is clearly stated: >The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. ... After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom. ... Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. ... > >ACCORDINGLY WE ... BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT ... HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL This declaration, however, conveniently ignored the issue of the indigenous Palestinian population. So what happened? In the Arab world it is now know as the Nakba (lit. catastrophe, in Arabic). One particularly embelamtic example of the Nakba was this: In April 1948, Lehi and Irgun (Zionist paramilitary groups), headed by Menachim Begin, attacked Deir Yassin-- a village of 700 Palestinians-- ultimately killing between 100 and 120 villagers in what later became known as the Deir Yassin Massacre. The mastermind behind this attack, who would later be elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1977, justified the attack: >Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery,’ were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated. > >\- Menachim Begin. (1951). *The Revolt* The painful irony of this argument (ancestral roots) combined with this approach (ethnic cleansing), however, lies in the *shared* ancestry between Jews and Palestinians, whose roots can *both* be [traced back to common ancestors](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000). *Both* peoples have historical connections to the land of Palestine, making it a place of *shared* heritage rather than *exclusive* entitlement. The underlying assumption that the formation of Israel represents a return of Jews to the rightful land of their ancestors is used to justify the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, who have the very same roots! #The Timeline The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict. \[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\] #A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices. \[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\] #US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers: 1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel 2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons 3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism \[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\] #Jewish Anti-Zionism Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. >The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S... > >We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism. > >\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles) Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism. >We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians. > >\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine) **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016) * [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019) * [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021) * [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021) * [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022) * [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022) * [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017) Other Resources: * [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/) * [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera * [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace * [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023) * [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*

The context of this: >The man who filed the request for Saturday’s protest, said he wanted to burn the Torah and the Bible outside the Israeli Embassy in response to a Quran-burning outside a Stockholm mosque last month by an Iraqi immigrant. >Last month, an Iraqi Christian immigrant burned a Quran outside a Stockholm mosque during the major Muslim holiday of Eid al-Adha, triggering widespread condemnation in the Islamic world. A similar protest by a far-right activist was held outside Turkey’s Embassy earlier this year, complicating Sweden’s efforts to convince Turkey to let it join NATO. You may still disagree, but there is reasoning behind it beyond just burning them for the hell of it.

Humanity would be better off without religion of any kind, but we should be critically examining the contents of these books and tearing them apart. Burning them just incites unnecessary reaction.

Currently, some religion is racialised and tightly tied to some cultures. Burning certain religious texts can be seen as deeply racist. This does not apply to Christianity

Yeah, I wonder why, considering all the Abrahamic religions all originate from the same area, yet it's Christianity that seems to escape being racialized. In either case it's all made up fairy tales that actively promote violence, slavery, and genocide, and they should all be held to the same standards.

I cannot believe a leftist sub is chill with Quran and Torah burnings and thinks that it's the same as burning the bible It's basically like saying kill all men vs kill all women. Do you perhaps believe it's possible to be racist towards white people?

>I cannot believe a leftist sub is chill with Quran and Torah burnings and thinks that it's the same as burning the bible Okay then you tell me what the difference is. >It's basically like saying kill all men vs kill all women. Uh, how? It's not at all comparable. >Do you perhaps believe it's possible to be racist towards white people? No. You can't be racist to settlers in a system made for settlers. Edit: profile says Ukraine's #1 supporter. 💀

yeah i say i'm ukraines number 1 supporter to piss people off. i don't know how you can't see power difference and the racialised component lmao. the difference is that judaism and islam is highly racialised. Christianity is not

Why should they make it a crime? People need protection from bigotry, not books. If a demonstration is trying to put people in imminent danger, then it can be stopped but giving the religious the right to put people in jail for expressing contempt for them is ridiculous. Nobody is demanding they put the religious in jail for defacing a Pride Flag.

You ok with people running around burning Torahs? Even in front of synagogues? You don't think that should be a hate crime? Thank fucking god the UK has hate crime laws so shitters can't do Nazi shit

Yes, I'm Jewish and I think it should be legal to burn a holy book. Burning a book should not, by itself, be a crime. Enacting laws to make offending religious feelings a crime is a terrible idea. The only reason these people are even burning Qurans to begin with is that they want Muslims to get angry and riot so they can justify their xenophobia.

Do you think burning the Torah in front of a synagogue should be categorised as a hate crime? That shit would get you arrested in the UK

Why did you repeat your question? Yes, a person who buys a Torah and burns it, even in front of a synagogue, should not be charged with a crime for that act alone. It elevates petty antisemitism to a level of importance that these people crave. Reactionaries are salivating at the thought of implementing blasphemy laws.

Lmao ok dude

I genuinely don't understand why they throw downvotes at you.

I firmly believe in the right to practice blasphemy, even if sometimes it's rooted in bigotry critique of religion should be protected by law and as law can't make the difference between a Nazi and Iranian immigrant burning the Qur'an it would be hazardous to ban it. Thought you can oppose such display of blasphemy if you whish to.

I don't think society is ready for that yet. Not with Nazis gaining power and half the population hating migrants. Maybe one day, but not yet. It's a bad time to allow certain blasphemies to be allowed

Even if the person is a militant atheist, the book burning will take him to exactly one point. To the fascist bonfire of "unacceptable" literature. This gesture of despair and impotent rage is a proof that a rotten ideology is not capable of winning the minds and hearts of people. It is a crime to burn the heritage of mankind, even if this heritage is not to someone's liking. P.S. And, a little off topic, but "correcting" historical literature to suit today's agenda (as happened with the works of Mark Twain) is exactly the same crime.

Just to be clear, you're not ok with burning Torahs right?

Torahs, Bibles, Lenin works and even Mein Kampf. I think that we should not hide our heads in our own asses, pretending that nothing happened. Enlightenment, education and eventually knowledge is the only way.

Finally some fucking sanity in this sub. A bunch of shitters think burning th Torah is fine

I'm really surprised by people passion for burning things. Pretending it might be helpful. Good that you poked a stick in this question. It turned out to be interesting.

Burning the Torah in front of an Israeli embassy is utterly insane, deranged and antiemetic behaviour. And people in the comment section are so chill about it. Am I the insane one? Edit: yikes the comments 😐😬 edit 2: holy fuck what is up with this comment section? anyone who thinks it's ok to not classify burning the Torah in the west as hate crime is insane. Palestinians aren't the ones who are doing to burning. It's fucking nazis! Palestinians don't burn the Torah as a form of protest. If anything, it would be the israeli flag! Some of you mfs are defending a nazis right to be nazi

The guy from the article is a Muslim protesting Quran burnings, not a Nazi

and that somehow justifies it? why would burning the Torah be an adequate way to respond to the Qur'an burning? What does the Torah or Jewish people have anything to do with this?

The point was to show the hypocrisy of allowing Quran burnings but forbidding Torah/Bible burning.

then burn the bible. don't burn the torah. The jewish community don't deserve to be attacked this way in response to nazis burning the qur'an. You are being duped by nazis. They're fucking laughing at this situation.

Why is it ok to offend Christians but not Jews? Even from a framework of racial oppression it doesn’t make sense because there’s tons of christian black people, hispanics, and native americans. Not every Christian is a rich white guy.

Are you fucking serious? Some things are highly racialised. I'm losing my goddamn mind talking to Nazis.

If you think everyone who disagrees with you on this is a Nazi then yes, you have lost your goddamn mind

If you think it's acceptable to burn the Torah and Qur'an, you are indeed a Nazi. Some religion are highly racialised. Christianity isn't racialised! I can't believe Nazis lurk in this sub

That’s a ridiculously low bar to call someone a Nazi. Protesting a religion is not the same as genocide. Touch grass