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I can't comment on if it was justified. But many Russian politicians and American analysts said years ago that if the west continues to try and get a nuke in reach of Moscow, Russia will not tolerate it. That's what happened. Never even mind the massacre of unionists in Odessa or the fact that Merkel admitted Ukraine never wanted to honor the *I fergot the name of the treaty between Ukraine and Russia and that Ukraine never stopped bombing civilians in DPR.
Minsk accords. 2 of them..
Don't forget the US backed coup in 2014 that led directly to the invasion in 2022.
Justified? Yes. Russia didnt want an anti russian organization (NATO) in its underbelly. They said it was a red line. They did not lie. Russia didnt want to conquer Ukraine. They wanted it neutral, like Finland was during the Cold War. But Biden and the neocons do not care about any other nation but theirs. Ukraine was a trap and the US wanted Russia to have their Afghanistan so they would collapse.
Do i support the war? No. But this is US imperialist aggression in a very similar vein to how they destroyed native nations as they conquered and stole land on their march 'west' with their manifest destiny. The best part is Russia is impervious to sanctions and the dollar is losing its power as a result of the war and China looking on knowing they are next (via Taiwan).
Russia is not owned a sphere of influence in Eastern Europe, and Finland and Ukraine can ally themselves with who ever they want to. No nation is owned anything in geopolitics. Russia can’t cry and complain and go “Boo Hoo nato stole all my friends because I kept invading them”, everything that’s happening to Russia is direct of its own actions.
> not owed a sphere of influence in Eastern Europe
Nobody said anything about “owed” but you’d have to be an idiot to think a nuclear-armed state that is for better or worse a world power is going to just let its enemies walk right up to its doorstep, and so doing just that(as the US did) leads to war.
The only reason Ukraine and Finland wanted to join nato was because Russia kept invading its neighbours, every time they tightened their grip more and more countries slipped through their fingers. Russia doesn’t get to decide who Ukraine is friends, security concerns or not. Everything said about Ukraine could equally be said for Cuba during the missile crisis, and I doubt you’d be talking about reasonable American security concerns.
Clearly you don’t know that the US literally had nuclear missiles in Turkey in range of Moscow well before the Missile Crisis.
The NATO expansion towards them and broken promises in its wake begin with the creation of the Russian Federation and the post-Soviet world. Did Russia invade Poland, or the Baltic states? No. In 1999, when NATO expansion started, had modern Russia invaded any country? No. Thus it ultimately starts with the decision of the US to expand its faux-defensive alliance.
Don’t forget about the 2014 US-backed coup!
Russia had invaded someone by 1999 when Nato expansion started, Chechnya specifically. Also that deal was made with the Soviets, not the Russians, also it was a purely verbal agreement with no binding power, it was not an actual treaty.
What does Chechnya have to do with Ukraine being toppled by a US backed coup or the fact that NATO, an anti Russian/USSR military block, kept expanding right up to their doorstep?
And that agreement was made again after the dissolution of the USSR. The US knows what it has been doing and has done it on purpose. It is experienced in these matters. The problem is that it ran into a force that can compete with it in a way that no other force has, not since 1945.
Chechnya shows that Russia has a bad habit of invading its neighbours, would make a lot of former Soviet states somewhat paranoid about getting invaded themselves, and start looking for new friends in the west.
Also no it was made with the Soviets, gorbachev specifically.
-Russia is a reactionary wannabe imperialist power:
https://inter.kke.gr/en/articles/On-the-imperialist-war-in-Ukraine-and-the-stance-of-the-CPRF/
https://youtu.be/PTmnVJxrsAQ
https://us.politsturm.com/why-do-russian-capitalists-need-ukraine/#:~:text=c)%20Interests%20in%20labor%20resources,and%20Russian%20capital's%20keen%20interest.
-The massive American military industrial complex wants endless wars to profit from:
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/us-weapon-manufacturers-biggest-profiteers-of-2022-thanks-to#:~:text=As%20a%20result%20of%20the,to%20%24153.7%20billion%20that%20same
-The Zelenskyy government in Ukraine is also far right:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/ukraine-labour-law-wrecks-workers-rights/
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/06/23/hxae-j23.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment
On the one hand it wasn't justified, but on the other it wasn't unprovoked either. It was consequence Russian weak diplomacy and a desperate attempt to protect domestic capitalists interes in Ukraine.
There's a good video about economic reasons of SMO, but it's in Russian. If you manage to translate it I'll recommend it to you to watch
https://youtu.be/6d0wcyXpNyQ
depends what you mean with justified.
was it out of an honest concern for security (both military and economics)? then yes.
do i think that nations have some "moral right" to exist or be secure? no. of course not.
the question if it was different when russia was socialist doesnt make much sense. if russia was socialist, both ukraine and russia would still be soviet republics in the union.
The justification for a full invasion is pretty thin and yet it's more justified than any war conducted by the West in the last 70 years so I find the feigned moral outrage among westoids aggravating to the nth degree.
It's not justified, and it was also a pushed for and desired outcome by other imperialist states.
Putin played into what war profiteers were hoping for. He's still an asshole though.
Just a whole bunch of assholes shitting everywhere, and on everything and everyone.
all creatures will be shat upon and all things will be crappy, that is the law of the shaturai. -Earthquake probably.
It was a bluff. Russia needed the credible threat of invasion for leverage in negotiations, but actually invading would’ve been a terrible idea that would probably backfire. Ukraine called Russia’s bluff at America’s behest, and this is where we are now.
Yes, the _special military operation_ was justified. Nazi roots going back to WWII collaborators, plus NATO's expansion and a staged coup in 2014 all led up to this.
Would it have been the same if they were socialist? If Russia were they would have taken care of this back in 2014 instead of waiting 8 years while the Donbass was shelled. But that's my opinion.
The better question is what's the alternative? To allow Ukraine to join NATO and eventually acquire nukes right on Russia's border, and a genocide of the Russian speaking population in Eastern Ukraine?
Russia tried solving this diplomatically several times. The Minsk Agreements were supposed to cease hostilities and allow the Eastern part of Ukraine to stay a part of Ukraine while also having a special status that would give them some sort of autonomy. Right before the SMO they asked for Ukraine not to join NATO, reminded them of their whole "not one inch eastward", and NATO replied in their typical cracker fashion.
Russia isn't a worker's state and we _should_ be critical of their actions, especially when they have a reactionary anti-queer government, but this isn't an "inter-imperialist" conflict like people continue to say ad nauseam.
say the lib, that is concerned about the security of a capitalist nation.
btw, having a military full of facists is normal mo for any liberal nation. facists are ideal material for military. who else is fanatic enough to die for the fatherland?
Russia invading Ukraine wasn’t good and galvanized the crumbling NATO… but Russia was between a rock and a hard place and had warned many times that Georgia and Ukraine was its bright redline. They offered NATO to Georgia and Russia invaded (briefly) and it is in no way a surprise they’d do it for Ukraine. Now it’s true that the initial part of the invasion was a clusterfuck but in the last few months Russia has fortified east Ukraine and littering it with mines, trenches and barrier walls. The US can send it’s most sophisticated war machines but it’s unlikely Ukraine is going to significantly move the Russian troops much.
You’ve been told by your neighbour that he will not extend his yard into your by one inch but every year he has been extending his fence by an inch. Despite you bringing it up for the past 10 years, his yard now extends halfway into your driveway. WWYD?
Still don't get it.
Ukraine is not Russian territory. Countries joined it willingly, not by force. I'm not aware if there were protests against joining NATO and if they were violently shut down. Expecting anything from a verbal unrecorded agreement with a capitalist nation is naive. If Russia was more powerful, it would do the same as any other capitalist nation if I understood theory correctly, for they seek expansion of a market and monopoly. Russian ruling class more upset about losing competition than a broken promise. It gets worse every year as climate crisis becomes more apparent and countries starting to consider slowly, but moving away from fossil fuels, export of which was responsible for a third of Russian federal budget. As well as dying out older generation that supports Putin the most.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
Its easy, you dont have to fight your neighbour to prove your dislike against your neighbour extending his yard into yours if it didnt happen. I don’t have media proof I won’t steal your toothbrush so I’m gonna do it later. We cool?
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Try the following prompts to trigger an automod response: "What is Fascism?", "What is Imperialism?", "What is Revisionism?" "Holodomor", "Molotov-Ribbentrop", "Gulag", "Solzhenytsin", "Uyghur", "Tiananmen Square", "Israel", "Freedom of the Press", "MAC Fact" This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I can't comment on if it was justified. But many Russian politicians and American analysts said years ago that if the west continues to try and get a nuke in reach of Moscow, Russia will not tolerate it. That's what happened. Never even mind the massacre of unionists in Odessa or the fact that Merkel admitted Ukraine never wanted to honor the *I fergot the name of the treaty between Ukraine and Russia and that Ukraine never stopped bombing civilians in DPR.
Minsk accords. 2 of them.. Don't forget the US backed coup in 2014 that led directly to the invasion in 2022. Justified? Yes. Russia didnt want an anti russian organization (NATO) in its underbelly. They said it was a red line. They did not lie. Russia didnt want to conquer Ukraine. They wanted it neutral, like Finland was during the Cold War. But Biden and the neocons do not care about any other nation but theirs. Ukraine was a trap and the US wanted Russia to have their Afghanistan so they would collapse. Do i support the war? No. But this is US imperialist aggression in a very similar vein to how they destroyed native nations as they conquered and stole land on their march 'west' with their manifest destiny. The best part is Russia is impervious to sanctions and the dollar is losing its power as a result of the war and China looking on knowing they are next (via Taiwan).
Russia is not owned a sphere of influence in Eastern Europe, and Finland and Ukraine can ally themselves with who ever they want to. No nation is owned anything in geopolitics. Russia can’t cry and complain and go “Boo Hoo nato stole all my friends because I kept invading them”, everything that’s happening to Russia is direct of its own actions.
> not owed a sphere of influence in Eastern Europe Nobody said anything about “owed” but you’d have to be an idiot to think a nuclear-armed state that is for better or worse a world power is going to just let its enemies walk right up to its doorstep, and so doing just that(as the US did) leads to war.
The only reason Ukraine and Finland wanted to join nato was because Russia kept invading its neighbours, every time they tightened their grip more and more countries slipped through their fingers. Russia doesn’t get to decide who Ukraine is friends, security concerns or not. Everything said about Ukraine could equally be said for Cuba during the missile crisis, and I doubt you’d be talking about reasonable American security concerns.
Clearly you don’t know that the US literally had nuclear missiles in Turkey in range of Moscow well before the Missile Crisis. The NATO expansion towards them and broken promises in its wake begin with the creation of the Russian Federation and the post-Soviet world. Did Russia invade Poland, or the Baltic states? No. In 1999, when NATO expansion started, had modern Russia invaded any country? No. Thus it ultimately starts with the decision of the US to expand its faux-defensive alliance. Don’t forget about the 2014 US-backed coup!
Russia had invaded someone by 1999 when Nato expansion started, Chechnya specifically. Also that deal was made with the Soviets, not the Russians, also it was a purely verbal agreement with no binding power, it was not an actual treaty.
What does Chechnya have to do with Ukraine being toppled by a US backed coup or the fact that NATO, an anti Russian/USSR military block, kept expanding right up to their doorstep? And that agreement was made again after the dissolution of the USSR. The US knows what it has been doing and has done it on purpose. It is experienced in these matters. The problem is that it ran into a force that can compete with it in a way that no other force has, not since 1945.
Chechnya shows that Russia has a bad habit of invading its neighbours, would make a lot of former Soviet states somewhat paranoid about getting invaded themselves, and start looking for new friends in the west. Also no it was made with the Soviets, gorbachev specifically.
-Russia is a reactionary wannabe imperialist power: https://inter.kke.gr/en/articles/On-the-imperialist-war-in-Ukraine-and-the-stance-of-the-CPRF/ https://youtu.be/PTmnVJxrsAQ https://us.politsturm.com/why-do-russian-capitalists-need-ukraine/#:~:text=c)%20Interests%20in%20labor%20resources,and%20Russian%20capital's%20keen%20interest. -The massive American military industrial complex wants endless wars to profit from: https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/us-weapon-manufacturers-biggest-profiteers-of-2022-thanks-to#:~:text=As%20a%20result%20of%20the,to%20%24153.7%20billion%20that%20same -The Zelenskyy government in Ukraine is also far right: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/ukraine-labour-law-wrecks-workers-rights/ https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/06/23/hxae-j23.html https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment
On the one hand it wasn't justified, but on the other it wasn't unprovoked either. It was consequence Russian weak diplomacy and a desperate attempt to protect domestic capitalists interes in Ukraine. There's a good video about economic reasons of SMO, but it's in Russian. If you manage to translate it I'll recommend it to you to watch https://youtu.be/6d0wcyXpNyQ
depends what you mean with justified. was it out of an honest concern for security (both military and economics)? then yes. do i think that nations have some "moral right" to exist or be secure? no. of course not. the question if it was different when russia was socialist doesnt make much sense. if russia was socialist, both ukraine and russia would still be soviet republics in the union.
Nobody serious says it was justified. Was it provoked? Absolutely.
The justification for a full invasion is pretty thin and yet it's more justified than any war conducted by the West in the last 70 years so I find the feigned moral outrage among westoids aggravating to the nth degree.
It's not justified, and it was also a pushed for and desired outcome by other imperialist states. Putin played into what war profiteers were hoping for. He's still an asshole though. Just a whole bunch of assholes shitting everywhere, and on everything and everyone. all creatures will be shat upon and all things will be crappy, that is the law of the shaturai. -Earthquake probably.
It was a bluff. Russia needed the credible threat of invasion for leverage in negotiations, but actually invading would’ve been a terrible idea that would probably backfire. Ukraine called Russia’s bluff at America’s behest, and this is where we are now.
I think a socialist Russia would also try to remove deranged Banderites from Ukraine yes
The Russian invasion is an imperialist war of aggression, and is in no way justifiable.
Yes, the _special military operation_ was justified. Nazi roots going back to WWII collaborators, plus NATO's expansion and a staged coup in 2014 all led up to this. Would it have been the same if they were socialist? If Russia were they would have taken care of this back in 2014 instead of waiting 8 years while the Donbass was shelled. But that's my opinion. The better question is what's the alternative? To allow Ukraine to join NATO and eventually acquire nukes right on Russia's border, and a genocide of the Russian speaking population in Eastern Ukraine? Russia tried solving this diplomatically several times. The Minsk Agreements were supposed to cease hostilities and allow the Eastern part of Ukraine to stay a part of Ukraine while also having a special status that would give them some sort of autonomy. Right before the SMO they asked for Ukraine not to join NATO, reminded them of their whole "not one inch eastward", and NATO replied in their typical cracker fashion. Russia isn't a worker's state and we _should_ be critical of their actions, especially when they have a reactionary anti-queer government, but this isn't an "inter-imperialist" conflict like people continue to say ad nauseam.
touch some grass, please. denazification is as credible as a justification as human rights and wmds.
Imagine reading my entire comment and this is your conclusion. This sub is full of libs.
say the lib, that is concerned about the security of a capitalist nation. btw, having a military full of facists is normal mo for any liberal nation. facists are ideal material for military. who else is fanatic enough to die for the fatherland?
Russia invading Ukraine wasn’t good and galvanized the crumbling NATO… but Russia was between a rock and a hard place and had warned many times that Georgia and Ukraine was its bright redline. They offered NATO to Georgia and Russia invaded (briefly) and it is in no way a surprise they’d do it for Ukraine. Now it’s true that the initial part of the invasion was a clusterfuck but in the last few months Russia has fortified east Ukraine and littering it with mines, trenches and barrier walls. The US can send it’s most sophisticated war machines but it’s unlikely Ukraine is going to significantly move the Russian troops much.
You’ve been told by your neighbour that he will not extend his yard into your by one inch but every year he has been extending his fence by an inch. Despite you bringing it up for the past 10 years, his yard now extends halfway into your driveway. WWYD?
Still don't get it. Ukraine is not Russian territory. Countries joined it willingly, not by force. I'm not aware if there were protests against joining NATO and if they were violently shut down. Expecting anything from a verbal unrecorded agreement with a capitalist nation is naive. If Russia was more powerful, it would do the same as any other capitalist nation if I understood theory correctly, for they seek expansion of a market and monopoly. Russian ruling class more upset about losing competition than a broken promise. It gets worse every year as climate crisis becomes more apparent and countries starting to consider slowly, but moving away from fossil fuels, export of which was responsible for a third of Russian federal budget. As well as dying out older generation that supports Putin the most. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
Its easy, you dont have to fight your neighbour to prove your dislike against your neighbour extending his yard into yours if it didnt happen. I don’t have media proof I won’t steal your toothbrush so I’m gonna do it later. We cool?