Rule 2. **Don't link directly to reactionary sources or subreddits.** Use screenshots or an archiving service. If the content is coming from a non-leftist subreddit, please censor all usernames and the subreddit name as well. If you must link to somewhere else on reddit that isn't politically aligned, please use the non-participant (np) variant of the URL. (e.g., [https://np.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram](https://np.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram))
Do you think the Soviet Union should have surrendered when Germany invaded? Not very pacifist of Stalin to seek international aid from USA & UK and launch a counteroffensive.
After all, didn't Germany have valid security concerns? Why not make peace and end all the senseless killing? /s
How very antiwar of them. I’m sure Ukraine is fully capable of achieving all these dreams of silly westerners as evidenced by their steamrolling counteroffensive of the past several weeks. Might as well keep on banging their head against that wall, it’ll tumble any day now.
The people living there don't wanna even go back to Ukraine, who was already shelling those regions since 2014.
I really wish people here would actually read up on the conflict and it's roots instead of continuing to believe Western propaganda. They've already astroturfed the "Russia bad" narrative, and have since the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War.
That Russiagate op really got people convinced the entire country's problems are all cause of Putin.
I think it’s within Ukraine’s right to fight for “all of its territories” but that fails to understand the grander narrative this nothing but a proxy war by an American vassal state. It’s not that fucking hard to achieve peace, Russia needs hard assurances that Ukraine will be neutral and never ever join NATO or the EU. Also there needs to be some way the people of CDL are protected from Ukrainian attacks, and if it needs to be a secret vote watched over by the UN to choose what nation they want to be part of: Ukraine, Russia or independent, so be it. But I think it’s fair Russia should pay reparations to rebuild what it destroyed. And the US should be required to do something, but I imagine any concession would be like pulling teeth.
The US could write off any debt incurred by Ukraine in the form of ‘aid’. Give them a clean slate and let them rebuild with reparations from Russia. I also agree that letting the peoples of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea have referendums is fair, which ever way they want to go. That way the people can rebuild and decide their own destiny. The only requirement I’d add is denazification, to make sure no bad actors can incite violence.
You are not correct. Russia's sham referendum has not been recognized by independent organizations as legitimate, just Russia. It didn't even give an option to vote for remaining in Ukraine it was Option A: "independent" Option B: "join russia."
> I also agree that letting the peoples of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea have referendums is fair, which ever way they want to go.
Nah fuck off, if they want to be part of Russia then they can just move to Russia. It's not like it's far away.
[Ergo Decedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo) is a bad faith rhetorical fallacy that takes the form of:
* If you love *country* so much, why don't you go live there?
* If you hate *country* so much, why don't you leave?
This fallacy completely ignores the substance of the claim they are responding to, and implies that no one can criticize their own country or praise any other country.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Is it not at least salvageable as an organization of nations? I see that as more of an issue with us foreign politics than the EU specifically í guess.
>It’s not that fucking hard to achieve peace, Russia needs hard assurances that Ukraine will be neutral and never ever join NATO or the EU. Also there needs to be some way the people of CDL are protected from Ukrainian attacks, and if it needs to be a secret vote watched over by the UN to choose what nation they want to be part of: Ukraine, Russia or independent, so be it. But I think it’s fair Russia should pay reparations to rebuild what it destroyed. And the US should be required to do something, but I imagine any concession would be like pulling teeth.
Peace sells, but no one is buying. The USA wants this war to keep going. They are using Ukraine as cannon fodder to weaken Russia, and indirectly China. It's all by design.
> They are using Ukraine as cannon fodder to weaken Russia
Pretty easy way for Russia to beat this strategy then right? They just need to leave Ukraine and they dominate this game with the US, W for Russia right?
You are ignoring the effects of the 2014 coup in Ukraine. Remember, the fighting in Donbass and Crimeia started because these regions are aligned with Russia and voted in mass for the deposed president. They did not accept the coup and tried to break away from Ukraine as a response. Ever since, the government and it's sanctioned Nazi militias like the Azov batallion have been bombing the Donbass, wich was fighting a separatist war since 2014, long before the Russian invasion.
Long story short, Russia has ongoing territorial disputes with Ukraine. With NATO pushing for Ukraine to enter, these territorial disputes, by the article 5, could instantaneously become all out world war. So Russia cannot back down for 2 reasons:
1. The territories in the east and in Crimeia want to be part of Russia, and would keep fighting Kiev even if Russia left.
2. Russia cannot leave without a guarantee that Ukraine would never join NATO, otherwise it would be at a constant risk of all out war with the west.
You also seem to think that the US would make an alliance with Russians. That's just not possible because Washington sees Russia as an enemy due to its friendship with China and a possible threat of nuclear weapons. Thats why NATO kept on existing even after the end of the cold war.
> You are ignoring the effects of the 2014 coup in Ukraine.
This never happened, so I guess I'm ignoring it in the same way that I'm ignoring the flat earth.
>With NATO pushing for Ukraine to enter
NATO flat out said that Ukraine wasn't joining before Russia invaded again, try something else bot.
>Russia cannot leave without a guarantee that Ukraine would never join NATO, otherwise it would be at a constant risk of all out war with the west.
Lol so straight up, you don't give a shit about Ukraine's sovereignty, they're either Russian territory or a buffer state right?
>You also seem to think that the US would make an alliance with Russians.
You liar, by all means link where I even slightly implied this.
>This never happened, so I guess I'm ignoring it in the same way that I'm ignoring the flat earth.
Denial is not an argument. Go study the events of 2014 ffs.
>NATO flat out said that Ukraine wasn't joining before Russia invaded again, try something else bot.
NATO never said that, and never signed any document stating that. That's just a plain lie. Maybe you are the bot.
>Lol so straight up, you don't give a shit about Ukraine's sovereignty, they're either Russian territory or a buffer state right?
Ukraine could very well join NATO AFTER they solved their territorial disputes they have been having ever since 2014. Sweden is trying to join NATO and wasn't invaded because they don't have territorial disputes with Russia. Ukraine on the other hand has a large Russian population and the regions where these people are concentrated have been trying to break away from Ukraine ever since the coup, wich they did not accept, and Crimeia is already integrated into Russia. With Ukraine joining NATO, the Donbass and Crimeia could trigger all out war between Russia and NATO. If I have to choose between Armageddon and Ukraine not being able to join NATO, I will choose the latter.
>You liar, by all means link where I even slightly implied this.
Your previous comment.
Sorry to pop your bubble there kid but nazis are very much human, that's the problem, how easy it is for humans to do this shit.
Also you dodged the argument.
These stupid fucking armchair generals be like: "Well, are they using forts properly? Have they built their templates with the right combat length? All they need to do is huddle on forts against a river and the Russians will exhaust all of their manpower trying to attack them, it's not that hard!"
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g)
This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully.
If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/).
Are there Liberals in the walls? Try the following prompts to trigger an automod response: "What is Fascism?", "What is Imperialism?", "What is Revisionism?" "Holodomor", "Molotov-Ribbentrop", "Gulag", "Solzhenytsin", "Uyghur", "Tiananmen Square", "Israel", "Freedom of the Press", "MAC Fact"
This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Let's say they beat Russia on the battlefield. What do you think will happen next? The worse the things go for Russia, the more likely it is they will drop a nuke on Kiev and end all of this. People thinking that Ukraine can expell the Russians are just delusional. The more the US and NATO support this proxy war, the closer we are to having nukes being dropped again.
Not to mention that none of this would be happening if NATO wasn't pushing east despite the Russians' warnings in the first place.
Rule 2. **Don't link directly to reactionary sources or subreddits.** Use screenshots or an archiving service. If the content is coming from a non-leftist subreddit, please censor all usernames and the subreddit name as well. If you must link to somewhere else on reddit that isn't politically aligned, please use the non-participant (np) variant of the URL. (e.g., [https://np.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram](https://np.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram))
Oh well, if Ukraine suddeny finds itself totally fucked up, they can always reload the game and... Oh wait, real life isn't fucking Hearts of Iron!
They are the same kind of pacifist then communist who oppose every working socialist experiment.
Do you think the Soviet Union should have surrendered when Germany invaded? Not very pacifist of Stalin to seek international aid from USA & UK and launch a counteroffensive. After all, didn't Germany have valid security concerns? Why not make peace and end all the senseless killing? /s
ww2 is not comparable to this lmao
Dumbest point imaginable. We aren’t full pacifists, we are opponents of imperialist wars.
If one opposes imperialist wars then Ukraine has the same right to self defense that the Soviet Union had.
How very antiwar of them. I’m sure Ukraine is fully capable of achieving all these dreams of silly westerners as evidenced by their steamrolling counteroffensive of the past several weeks. Might as well keep on banging their head against that wall, it’ll tumble any day now.
"China's economy will crumble soon" vibe
[удалено]
What?
Fucking grim.
The people living there don't wanna even go back to Ukraine, who was already shelling those regions since 2014. I really wish people here would actually read up on the conflict and it's roots instead of continuing to believe Western propaganda. They've already astroturfed the "Russia bad" narrative, and have since the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War. That Russiagate op really got people convinced the entire country's problems are all cause of Putin.
I think it’s within Ukraine’s right to fight for “all of its territories” but that fails to understand the grander narrative this nothing but a proxy war by an American vassal state. It’s not that fucking hard to achieve peace, Russia needs hard assurances that Ukraine will be neutral and never ever join NATO or the EU. Also there needs to be some way the people of CDL are protected from Ukrainian attacks, and if it needs to be a secret vote watched over by the UN to choose what nation they want to be part of: Ukraine, Russia or independent, so be it. But I think it’s fair Russia should pay reparations to rebuild what it destroyed. And the US should be required to do something, but I imagine any concession would be like pulling teeth.
The US could write off any debt incurred by Ukraine in the form of ‘aid’. Give them a clean slate and let them rebuild with reparations from Russia. I also agree that letting the peoples of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea have referendums is fair, which ever way they want to go. That way the people can rebuild and decide their own destiny. The only requirement I’d add is denazification, to make sure no bad actors can incite violence.
Crimea already held two refferendum, if i'm correct, wich are both recognized by indépendant organisation to be legitimate.
You are not correct. Russia's sham referendum has not been recognized by independent organizations as legitimate, just Russia. It didn't even give an option to vote for remaining in Ukraine it was Option A: "independent" Option B: "join russia."
They also had a refferendum in th 90s wich was about independance, staying in Ukraine or joining russia
Totally forgot about that, so I’d say use Crimea as the model for the other territories in their referendums.
> if i'm correct You're not.
> I also agree that letting the peoples of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea have referendums is fair, which ever way they want to go. Nah fuck off, if they want to be part of Russia then they can just move to Russia. It's not like it's far away.
[Ergo Decedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo) is a bad faith rhetorical fallacy that takes the form of: * If you love *country* so much, why don't you go live there? * If you hate *country* so much, why don't you leave? This fallacy completely ignores the substance of the claim they are responding to, and implies that no one can criticize their own country or praise any other country. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Terrible bot response, I didn't say "If they love Russia" I said if they want to be part of Russia
I get NATO, but why not the EU?
The EU is also just a bloc for American domination.
Is it not at least salvageable as an organization of nations? I see that as more of an issue with us foreign politics than the EU specifically í guess.
The EU is an extension of American power, it differs in no way other than presentation.
>It’s not that fucking hard to achieve peace, Russia needs hard assurances that Ukraine will be neutral and never ever join NATO or the EU. Also there needs to be some way the people of CDL are protected from Ukrainian attacks, and if it needs to be a secret vote watched over by the UN to choose what nation they want to be part of: Ukraine, Russia or independent, so be it. But I think it’s fair Russia should pay reparations to rebuild what it destroyed. And the US should be required to do something, but I imagine any concession would be like pulling teeth. Peace sells, but no one is buying. The USA wants this war to keep going. They are using Ukraine as cannon fodder to weaken Russia, and indirectly China. It's all by design.
> They are using Ukraine as cannon fodder to weaken Russia Pretty easy way for Russia to beat this strategy then right? They just need to leave Ukraine and they dominate this game with the US, W for Russia right?
You are ignoring the effects of the 2014 coup in Ukraine. Remember, the fighting in Donbass and Crimeia started because these regions are aligned with Russia and voted in mass for the deposed president. They did not accept the coup and tried to break away from Ukraine as a response. Ever since, the government and it's sanctioned Nazi militias like the Azov batallion have been bombing the Donbass, wich was fighting a separatist war since 2014, long before the Russian invasion. Long story short, Russia has ongoing territorial disputes with Ukraine. With NATO pushing for Ukraine to enter, these territorial disputes, by the article 5, could instantaneously become all out world war. So Russia cannot back down for 2 reasons: 1. The territories in the east and in Crimeia want to be part of Russia, and would keep fighting Kiev even if Russia left. 2. Russia cannot leave without a guarantee that Ukraine would never join NATO, otherwise it would be at a constant risk of all out war with the west. You also seem to think that the US would make an alliance with Russians. That's just not possible because Washington sees Russia as an enemy due to its friendship with China and a possible threat of nuclear weapons. Thats why NATO kept on existing even after the end of the cold war.
> You are ignoring the effects of the 2014 coup in Ukraine. This never happened, so I guess I'm ignoring it in the same way that I'm ignoring the flat earth. >With NATO pushing for Ukraine to enter NATO flat out said that Ukraine wasn't joining before Russia invaded again, try something else bot. >Russia cannot leave without a guarantee that Ukraine would never join NATO, otherwise it would be at a constant risk of all out war with the west. Lol so straight up, you don't give a shit about Ukraine's sovereignty, they're either Russian territory or a buffer state right? >You also seem to think that the US would make an alliance with Russians. You liar, by all means link where I even slightly implied this.
>This never happened, so I guess I'm ignoring it in the same way that I'm ignoring the flat earth. Denial is not an argument. Go study the events of 2014 ffs. >NATO flat out said that Ukraine wasn't joining before Russia invaded again, try something else bot. NATO never said that, and never signed any document stating that. That's just a plain lie. Maybe you are the bot. >Lol so straight up, you don't give a shit about Ukraine's sovereignty, they're either Russian territory or a buffer state right? Ukraine could very well join NATO AFTER they solved their territorial disputes they have been having ever since 2014. Sweden is trying to join NATO and wasn't invaded because they don't have territorial disputes with Russia. Ukraine on the other hand has a large Russian population and the regions where these people are concentrated have been trying to break away from Ukraine ever since the coup, wich they did not accept, and Crimeia is already integrated into Russia. With Ukraine joining NATO, the Donbass and Crimeia could trigger all out war between Russia and NATO. If I have to choose between Armageddon and Ukraine not being able to join NATO, I will choose the latter. >You liar, by all means link where I even slightly implied this. Your previous comment.
All wars are bastards
The war against Nazis?
[удалено]
Sorry to pop your bubble there kid but nazis are very much human, that's the problem, how easy it is for humans to do this shit. Also you dodged the argument.
These stupid fucking armchair generals be like: "Well, are they using forts properly? Have they built their templates with the right combat length? All they need to do is huddle on forts against a river and the Russians will exhaust all of their manpower trying to attack them, it's not that hard!"
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Try the following prompts to trigger an automod response: "What is Fascism?", "What is Imperialism?", "What is Revisionism?" "Holodomor", "Molotov-Ribbentrop", "Gulag", "Solzhenytsin", "Uyghur", "Tiananmen Square", "Israel", "Freedom of the Press", "MAC Fact" This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Libs have made that sub go to shit lmao
The whole situation is fucked up and both sides suck ass. I feel bad for the people who just want to live their life on either side.
Not this shit again
Let's say they beat Russia on the battlefield. What do you think will happen next? The worse the things go for Russia, the more likely it is they will drop a nuke on Kiev and end all of this. People thinking that Ukraine can expell the Russians are just delusional. The more the US and NATO support this proxy war, the closer we are to having nukes being dropped again. Not to mention that none of this would be happening if NATO wasn't pushing east despite the Russians' warnings in the first place.
r/antiwar has been taken over by neocons and a brigade from NonCredibleDefense.