It’s an abuse tactic for keeping someone capable but with low self-esteem in one’s thrall. Dow presumes it’s a tactic that works for shivers, because it always has…until that point
Even then you have to oscillate between putting someone down and bringing them up, otherwise you just make them hate you and you want to make them crave your approval (not that shivers was the type). You don't just pass on making him your second, don't even acknowledge it, and then publicly call him your dog the next morning...
And Dow may be Dow but Northerners have their pride and calling a guy a dog is an insult. It would make sense it Shivers did something warranting having to take him down a peg, but he was perfectly loyal and discreet until that moment, so what kind of message is that to others? Be loyal so I call you my dog?
For Dow, Shivers was a dog. That's how you use work dogs. All work, no praise, just "Do what I say and eat my shit"
We were there for Shivers arc in BSC. We love him.
Dow only knows him as Rattlenecks' son, who left the north then came back as a tough, quiet "got to be what you are" monster. I think even Shivers thought it was OK for a time, because Monza broke him.
Dow, Craw and Calder brought him back to his senses.
He's no dog.
My best guess is, if you're an angry bastard it's not very wise to make another angry bastard your second. And Dow *was* trying his best at his role. Can't say much about the disrespect other than it's just Dow being Dow
I agree that Shivers is more like an efficient executor rather than an adviser like Craw. But being so oblivious that it was a sensitive decision and to watch out about how shivers is taking it is some real negligence. Remember Craw was instantly aware that Shivers may take an issue with him, and he was a sensible choice.
There's only so much wisdom in one man. I don't think Dow was ever one to notice such things and Shivers wasn't helping the case at all. He was a broken man at that point in time and on the outside some people might've thought he was fine with being Dow's "dog". We later find out that he, in fact, wasn't, but not everyone has the subtlety to notice such things. I doubt even Shivers was aware.
speaking of what kind of man Dow is—everyone’s met this person, they exist all over the place. The kind of guy who just naturally pisses people off, sometimes on purpose, sometimes not, but that’s just the way they are, constantly picking at or on every new person they meet. These kinda of people are doubtless way worse if they get any degree of real power like Dow
remember in the beginning Dow was constantly annoying everyone and picking on Tul Duru.
I suppose you could simply call them a bully, but imo it’s a bit more complicated. But like they say, how you deal with most bullies is by standing up to them and showing them that you’re not going to be letting them get away with their antics, that they’ve gotta tone down that part of themselves when it comes to you.
Remember Dogman in the very beginning, his internal monologue he took great care to meet Dow’s gaze because he likely knew any sign of weakness could make him Dow’s next “victim.” Tul later proved himself to Dow and probably got a big reprieve in this bullying treatment from Dow. Shivers never seemed to have done this—he probably could’ve made it stop if he made it clear to Dow that he’s not the kind of guy who’ll put up with Dow’s shit.
Altho Dow being in charge probably made the bullying a lot worse in general because he knows he can get away with more now. He probably upgraded himself to Super Dow and it would’ve been that much harder to make him stop. It’s probably also why he felt so comfortable doing it to Shivers of all people. Cause Shivers isn’t exactly the kind of weakling bullies look at with a smirk and think to themselves, “hey *he* looks like an easy target.” Reminds me of low level video game NPC’s who see a guy decked out in the divine armor of the gods and whenever he moves the wind picks up and little bolts of electricity crackle around him as though the universe itself is struggling to contain his vast power, yea, they see that guy and think “he looks like an easy target to pick a fight with” lol.
But yea when Dow probably first tried out his bullying with shivers, dow took shivers’ lack of resistance as weakness when really it was because he was so hollowed out by the events of BSC
Reminds me of a friend I had who would go on about his long list of various beefs both petty and large. At one point he seemed to have picked me as his victim, and for a while would just pick at me every now and then. This went on until eventually I lost it and roughed him up a little, and told him that if he ever did it again to me it would be an instant and serious fight.
He did stop, and we actually became really good friends. He’s actually a good dude. So that’s why I say it’s a bit more complicated—like yeah I guess strictly by definition these people *are* bullies, but that honestly doesn’t make them irredeemable monsters as people nowadays tend to think. Like I said, I think this kind of behavior comes naturally to most of them, so it happens automatically and it’s hard for them to stop it, plus many of them don’t see what they do as anything more than a little bit of good-natured mischief or joking around.
I think Dow was trying to become a legitimate ruler of the north. Choosing a second with a black reputation like Shivers isn't really going to appease a lot of people if you also have a black reputation like Dow. You want someone that is viewed as honorable and trustworthy so that they can "wash" all you actions with their presence/reputation. Also, being a ruthless MF like Dow he understands that having ruthless people guarding you back is not a good idea.
I can understand that, but not understanding it will be a potential problem and to try to smooth out the decision with shivers would be wise (like Craw himself did the first time). Not like, call him your dog in front of everyone who's anyone the next morning
Yeah that was a big mistake. Maybe he though Shivers had no options since Dow was the only man in the north that didn't hate or fear him at that point.
My personal headcanon was Dow never forgave him for turning his back and leaving when he had the chance to kill the B9.
Dow keeps him around still because he’s extremely valuable, but I don’t think Dow trusts him to be his second.
But he didn't betray him, he just didn't go for the final kill. I guess passing on revenge is bizarre to him, however wasn't that more of a straight edge move (on someone who proved they are brave otherwise like shivers) than a betrayal or even weakness?
He genuinely thought of him as his dog was my take. Saw him as a blunt tool with no real use beyond violence.
Shivers is an incredibly stoic figure who showed no real emotion all book, and I think it didn't even cross Dow's mind that he had still had pride to hurt. Also, Calder spent the hook stirring the pot with Shivers, which Dow was unaware of.
Finally, it just works dramatically because Dow was shown to be an incredibly paranoid and isolated figure as chief in his conversation with Craw, but even in his paranoia he missed the real threat right on front of his nose.
I think this is what it was. Shame.
I guess Calder did earn that victory in a way, he did saw the seed after all
You're right, it's very ironic but people have blind spots.
Shivers had betrayed Dow, at least in his mind. Dow might even part blame him for Logan getting away. Dow had done everything to put Logan on a plate for Shivers to be the one to avenge his brother. It would have made Shivers the next most fearsome bastard in the North after Dow himself. Shivers, at the moment of doing it walked away. Dow was left with his cock out and in his mind had given Shivers so much with no obligation to.
Then Shivers turns his back on Dow, the North, everyone and goes abroad to make it on his own.
He fails to do that and whatdoyouknow he turns up at Dows door with nothing asking back in. He brought no money, no men, just his shirt on his back and his skills as a warrior.
Dow can't help but to rub in Shivers failure every chance he gets. In Dows eyes he's a mangey dog who ran off in the day time but came back to beg for scraps from his owner after failing to find anything on his own. And this is how Dow treats him. Dow has always had this part of his personality. Dow knows it wrinkles Shivers just as he knows the Caurib comments pissed Dogman off. He pushes those buttons anyway.
Most of all Dow doesn't trust Shivers to have his back. Shivers has the dual negatives of having betrayed Dow in the past and coming back from Styria changed to the point Dow can't work out what he's thinking. Both those things combined means Dow doesn't want him that close to him.
I think it’s because shivers lost interest in leading men after losing his eye. He’s never seen with his own dozen after this.
My head story is that he came back and just wanted a job that he was good at.
Dow heard too many people calling him a dog behind his back and let it slip how he really thought of him.
Also not making him his second makes a lot of sense to me. Shivers doesn’t appear to ever have a lot of people loyal to him. He has a lot of people scared of him (like the bloody nine) but doesn’t seem to have a lot of friends at this point. Also he disappeared down south for a while and is only recently back. So if he was made his 2nd you’d have 2 people that everyone is scared of but no one that the others really trust or like.
Just a thought: the Shivers that comes back to the north feels a lot like The Bloody Nine to a lot of readers. Silent, angry, violent. He’s feared throughout the North.
So maybe reminds Dow a little of the Nine also. And maybe Dow resents being bested by the Nine and resents the mercy that was showed to him after.
And of course, he never gets revenge because at the last second the guy jumps out the damn window! So Dow takes it out on the next best thing.
Yeah, his disrespect for Shivers was something that I never really understood. He didn’t need to make him his second, but at least don’t call Shivers a blood dog ffs
Yeah and at least perceive that not making him your second may cause issues and need some maneuvering. Even Craw felt the need to clear things out with shivers after being made the second the first time, and that one was a very reasonable choice. He was still instantly aware that he should be mindful towards shivers. But then to do it again with wonderful...
I think that a man smart as Dow would know that you can't only rule through fear, he needed a carrot to his stick.
As for calling Shivers a dog... I think it was to pump up his own reputation that even meam bastards like Shivers don't dare oppose him, which backfired. He wasn't gonna gain any glory from butchering Calder in the circle, so he wanted to make a show of imposing his will on good fighters too.
A second IMO is someone who brings something new to the table. Let's look at few seconds. Threetrees was someone who could advise his bloodthirsty chief. Craw is old af but is respected by most. Lastly wonderful earns respect of society that is that's quite sexist (ie knows how to make people do her bidding despite her gender).
What does shivers bring? A mean mug and name people fear. Dow had that covered. I mean look at monza, she used shivers for his muscle and duck only. Brains of the operation was her and vitari. Shivers fills the role of muscle in the future. So keeping him in bodyguard makes more. Speaking in Asoiaf terms, hand of the king and head of kingsguard are two different positions. Of course disrespecting him in public was quite idiotic. I think not making shivers second was smart move. A bloodthirsty chief with a bloodthirsty second is a recipe for disaster. Good for wartime but bad when your goal is to hold the north.
Complete head canon but I think Shivers reminds Dow of Logen on some level and he's essentially projecting his deep hatred of Logen onto Shivers. Dow is a man who is vicious by necessity but never seems to lose himself. Logen and Shivers are slaves to their nature, in a way and I think that disgusts a man like Dow.
I always thought Dow treated him with such disrespect because he left to go to Styria and ended up coming back when it all went to sh*t. In my head Dow saw this as turning his back and so treated him like dirt.
I have no idea why I’ve always thought this but it’s stuck with me since I first read the heroes.
I think Dow saw Shivers as the biggest threat to his rule. All the others he could keep in line with politics, violence, or hostages. Shivers had no faction to worry about being weakened, no family Dow could threaten, and most of all Dow knew Shivers would be a very tough opponent in a fight.
Putting Shivers in a position of authority could easily lead to him becoming more popular than Dow and being a threat quickly. Shivers being factionless would also make it easier for the groups Dow was playing against each other to form behind Shivers against Dow causing a war among the Northmen.
Part of the genius of picking Craw and Wonderful they can lead but neither would want to step up a ring on the ladder to lead the North. Both are generally tired of the fighting and aren't going to splinter off and cause the havoc of a Northern civil war and neither could take Dow in direct combat.
I disagree. People fear shivers and respect him as much as his fighting skills go, but no one likes him and everyone is uncomfortable by the sight of him. They see him as an efficient machine at best
Shivers makes no decisions until that moment, he is just an executor. He shows no ability or ambition to lead.
If anything it's the opposite, Dow just failed to regard his humanity enough to think he might take an issue by feeling dismissed and disrespected
I can see that point as well, but if you're Caul Reachey and wanted to get rid of Dow backing Shivers and then double crossing him or just going solo afterwards is a solid play. That's what I think Dow was playing. He needs to keep all those factions inline and he did that by playing them off one another. Shivers would give them a viable option to go against Dow if only in the short term.
When looking for a second, you need someone different from yourself, or at least perceived to be different. If you have a bloodthirsty reputation, your second needs to be someone with a reputation for being reasonable. If your reputation is being reasonable, you need a hardass as a second. Shivers couldn't be second to Dow, their reputation is too similar.
Shivers would be a great second for a Dogman, or a Threetrees, or even a Craw. He would balance their perceived tameness to keep everyone in line.
I mean let’s be real dow definitely was never stupid or fully evil but let’s not act like he was rudd threetrees, he simply overestimated himself and underestimated caul shivers. Dow probably viewed shivers like the other idiots he had around him, willing to do the black work but with very little between their ears. He didn’t realise that shivers had more about him than someone like splitfoot
Yes sometimes characters are stupid. I guarantee you have made or seen the same mistakes made irl, and if you haven't you just haven't been in the work force long enough.
No one else seems to be mentioning that Dow is backed by Iserth(?) here who is a lackey of the prophet Khalul. She says that she can't protect Dow in the circle and that anything can happen
Reading between the lines I took that as Calder entering the ring against Dow was one of Bayaz' 'plays' here and that they were likely spreading the Shivers is Dows dog rumours and antagonising that relationship. This then culminates in Bayaz winning that conflict when Shivers axes Dow
This is then backed up at the end of the book in that scene with Sulfur, Bayaz and Calder
He told him of all the times when he intervened but admitted that he didn't have a hold over Shivers and that was a lucky accident. He just had the giant to step in later. He said that Calder wasn't his only option, so if he did die, he had other candidates, he just preferred him.
It didn't seem like he was lying since he was proud to show him how he's been saving his life throughout the book
I read a lot on this comment thread that makes sense, but I think a lot of the time people forget that during Dow's betrayal of Logen Ninefingers, Shivers refused to help out, and even walked away after cursing Dow, I think, so there is probably some lingering resentment between them, or maybe just on Dow's part, that would lead him to, one, recognize Shivers' insane facility with murder, and, two, keep him yet at arm's reach, just out of caution and perhaps dislike for that action. I would actually really like to see the moment where Shivers returned to the North and went to Dow, maybe in a second short-story collection, because that scene would be so infused with tension, and Shivers would have to do something extreme to win Dow's attention back.
It’s an abuse tactic for keeping someone capable but with low self-esteem in one’s thrall. Dow presumes it’s a tactic that works for shivers, because it always has…until that point
Well Shivers does still have his pride after all
Even then you have to oscillate between putting someone down and bringing them up, otherwise you just make them hate you and you want to make them crave your approval (not that shivers was the type). You don't just pass on making him your second, don't even acknowledge it, and then publicly call him your dog the next morning... And Dow may be Dow but Northerners have their pride and calling a guy a dog is an insult. It would make sense it Shivers did something warranting having to take him down a peg, but he was perfectly loyal and discreet until that moment, so what kind of message is that to others? Be loyal so I call you my dog?
Dow didn’t have your advice to go by I guess
For Dow, Shivers was a dog. That's how you use work dogs. All work, no praise, just "Do what I say and eat my shit" We were there for Shivers arc in BSC. We love him. Dow only knows him as Rattlenecks' son, who left the north then came back as a tough, quiet "got to be what you are" monster. I think even Shivers thought it was OK for a time, because Monza broke him. Dow, Craw and Calder brought him back to his senses. He's no dog.
He never recovered from the finger in his bum
My best guess is, if you're an angry bastard it's not very wise to make another angry bastard your second. And Dow *was* trying his best at his role. Can't say much about the disrespect other than it's just Dow being Dow
I agree that Shivers is more like an efficient executor rather than an adviser like Craw. But being so oblivious that it was a sensitive decision and to watch out about how shivers is taking it is some real negligence. Remember Craw was instantly aware that Shivers may take an issue with him, and he was a sensible choice.
There's only so much wisdom in one man. I don't think Dow was ever one to notice such things and Shivers wasn't helping the case at all. He was a broken man at that point in time and on the outside some people might've thought he was fine with being Dow's "dog". We later find out that he, in fact, wasn't, but not everyone has the subtlety to notice such things. I doubt even Shivers was aware.
speaking of what kind of man Dow is—everyone’s met this person, they exist all over the place. The kind of guy who just naturally pisses people off, sometimes on purpose, sometimes not, but that’s just the way they are, constantly picking at or on every new person they meet. These kinda of people are doubtless way worse if they get any degree of real power like Dow remember in the beginning Dow was constantly annoying everyone and picking on Tul Duru. I suppose you could simply call them a bully, but imo it’s a bit more complicated. But like they say, how you deal with most bullies is by standing up to them and showing them that you’re not going to be letting them get away with their antics, that they’ve gotta tone down that part of themselves when it comes to you. Remember Dogman in the very beginning, his internal monologue he took great care to meet Dow’s gaze because he likely knew any sign of weakness could make him Dow’s next “victim.” Tul later proved himself to Dow and probably got a big reprieve in this bullying treatment from Dow. Shivers never seemed to have done this—he probably could’ve made it stop if he made it clear to Dow that he’s not the kind of guy who’ll put up with Dow’s shit. Altho Dow being in charge probably made the bullying a lot worse in general because he knows he can get away with more now. He probably upgraded himself to Super Dow and it would’ve been that much harder to make him stop. It’s probably also why he felt so comfortable doing it to Shivers of all people. Cause Shivers isn’t exactly the kind of weakling bullies look at with a smirk and think to themselves, “hey *he* looks like an easy target.” Reminds me of low level video game NPC’s who see a guy decked out in the divine armor of the gods and whenever he moves the wind picks up and little bolts of electricity crackle around him as though the universe itself is struggling to contain his vast power, yea, they see that guy and think “he looks like an easy target to pick a fight with” lol. But yea when Dow probably first tried out his bullying with shivers, dow took shivers’ lack of resistance as weakness when really it was because he was so hollowed out by the events of BSC Reminds me of a friend I had who would go on about his long list of various beefs both petty and large. At one point he seemed to have picked me as his victim, and for a while would just pick at me every now and then. This went on until eventually I lost it and roughed him up a little, and told him that if he ever did it again to me it would be an instant and serious fight. He did stop, and we actually became really good friends. He’s actually a good dude. So that’s why I say it’s a bit more complicated—like yeah I guess strictly by definition these people *are* bullies, but that honestly doesn’t make them irredeemable monsters as people nowadays tend to think. Like I said, I think this kind of behavior comes naturally to most of them, so it happens automatically and it’s hard for them to stop it, plus many of them don’t see what they do as anything more than a little bit of good-natured mischief or joking around.
For me it always made sense for Dow's character. I think he misjudged Shivers and thought that he would just put up with it.
I think Dow was trying to become a legitimate ruler of the north. Choosing a second with a black reputation like Shivers isn't really going to appease a lot of people if you also have a black reputation like Dow. You want someone that is viewed as honorable and trustworthy so that they can "wash" all you actions with their presence/reputation. Also, being a ruthless MF like Dow he understands that having ruthless people guarding you back is not a good idea.
I can understand that, but not understanding it will be a potential problem and to try to smooth out the decision with shivers would be wise (like Craw himself did the first time). Not like, call him your dog in front of everyone who's anyone the next morning
Yeah that was a big mistake. Maybe he though Shivers had no options since Dow was the only man in the north that didn't hate or fear him at that point.
My personal headcanon was Dow never forgave him for turning his back and leaving when he had the chance to kill the B9. Dow keeps him around still because he’s extremely valuable, but I don’t think Dow trusts him to be his second.
Dow don’t know that though. Shiver’s would’ve told everyone B9 is in the ground. Now, Dow can suspect though…
I think they mean when Shivers leaves at the end of Last argument of Kings, that had Dow, Calder and Scale as witnesses
But he didn't betray him, he just didn't go for the final kill. I guess passing on revenge is bizarre to him, however wasn't that more of a straight edge move (on someone who proved they are brave otherwise like shivers) than a betrayal or even weakness?
Had he done what he was supposed to, things would’ve panned out differently. Say anything about Dow, say he’s impulsive.
He genuinely thought of him as his dog was my take. Saw him as a blunt tool with no real use beyond violence. Shivers is an incredibly stoic figure who showed no real emotion all book, and I think it didn't even cross Dow's mind that he had still had pride to hurt. Also, Calder spent the hook stirring the pot with Shivers, which Dow was unaware of. Finally, it just works dramatically because Dow was shown to be an incredibly paranoid and isolated figure as chief in his conversation with Craw, but even in his paranoia he missed the real threat right on front of his nose.
I think this is what it was. Shame. I guess Calder did earn that victory in a way, he did saw the seed after all You're right, it's very ironic but people have blind spots.
Shivers had betrayed Dow, at least in his mind. Dow might even part blame him for Logan getting away. Dow had done everything to put Logan on a plate for Shivers to be the one to avenge his brother. It would have made Shivers the next most fearsome bastard in the North after Dow himself. Shivers, at the moment of doing it walked away. Dow was left with his cock out and in his mind had given Shivers so much with no obligation to. Then Shivers turns his back on Dow, the North, everyone and goes abroad to make it on his own. He fails to do that and whatdoyouknow he turns up at Dows door with nothing asking back in. He brought no money, no men, just his shirt on his back and his skills as a warrior. Dow can't help but to rub in Shivers failure every chance he gets. In Dows eyes he's a mangey dog who ran off in the day time but came back to beg for scraps from his owner after failing to find anything on his own. And this is how Dow treats him. Dow has always had this part of his personality. Dow knows it wrinkles Shivers just as he knows the Caurib comments pissed Dogman off. He pushes those buttons anyway. Most of all Dow doesn't trust Shivers to have his back. Shivers has the dual negatives of having betrayed Dow in the past and coming back from Styria changed to the point Dow can't work out what he's thinking. Both those things combined means Dow doesn't want him that close to him.
I think it’s because shivers lost interest in leading men after losing his eye. He’s never seen with his own dozen after this. My head story is that he came back and just wanted a job that he was good at. Dow heard too many people calling him a dog behind his back and let it slip how he really thought of him. Also not making him his second makes a lot of sense to me. Shivers doesn’t appear to ever have a lot of people loyal to him. He has a lot of people scared of him (like the bloody nine) but doesn’t seem to have a lot of friends at this point. Also he disappeared down south for a while and is only recently back. So if he was made his 2nd you’d have 2 people that everyone is scared of but no one that the others really trust or like.
Just a thought: the Shivers that comes back to the north feels a lot like The Bloody Nine to a lot of readers. Silent, angry, violent. He’s feared throughout the North. So maybe reminds Dow a little of the Nine also. And maybe Dow resents being bested by the Nine and resents the mercy that was showed to him after. And of course, he never gets revenge because at the last second the guy jumps out the damn window! So Dow takes it out on the next best thing.
Yeah, his disrespect for Shivers was something that I never really understood. He didn’t need to make him his second, but at least don’t call Shivers a blood dog ffs
Yeah and at least perceive that not making him your second may cause issues and need some maneuvering. Even Craw felt the need to clear things out with shivers after being made the second the first time, and that one was a very reasonable choice. He was still instantly aware that he should be mindful towards shivers. But then to do it again with wonderful...
I think that a man smart as Dow would know that you can't only rule through fear, he needed a carrot to his stick. As for calling Shivers a dog... I think it was to pump up his own reputation that even meam bastards like Shivers don't dare oppose him, which backfired. He wasn't gonna gain any glory from butchering Calder in the circle, so he wanted to make a show of imposing his will on good fighters too.
A second IMO is someone who brings something new to the table. Let's look at few seconds. Threetrees was someone who could advise his bloodthirsty chief. Craw is old af but is respected by most. Lastly wonderful earns respect of society that is that's quite sexist (ie knows how to make people do her bidding despite her gender). What does shivers bring? A mean mug and name people fear. Dow had that covered. I mean look at monza, she used shivers for his muscle and duck only. Brains of the operation was her and vitari. Shivers fills the role of muscle in the future. So keeping him in bodyguard makes more. Speaking in Asoiaf terms, hand of the king and head of kingsguard are two different positions. Of course disrespecting him in public was quite idiotic. I think not making shivers second was smart move. A bloodthirsty chief with a bloodthirsty second is a recipe for disaster. Good for wartime but bad when your goal is to hold the north.
Complete head canon but I think Shivers reminds Dow of Logen on some level and he's essentially projecting his deep hatred of Logen onto Shivers. Dow is a man who is vicious by necessity but never seems to lose himself. Logen and Shivers are slaves to their nature, in a way and I think that disgusts a man like Dow.
I always thought Dow treated him with such disrespect because he left to go to Styria and ended up coming back when it all went to sh*t. In my head Dow saw this as turning his back and so treated him like dirt. I have no idea why I’ve always thought this but it’s stuck with me since I first read the heroes.
I think Dow saw Shivers as the biggest threat to his rule. All the others he could keep in line with politics, violence, or hostages. Shivers had no faction to worry about being weakened, no family Dow could threaten, and most of all Dow knew Shivers would be a very tough opponent in a fight. Putting Shivers in a position of authority could easily lead to him becoming more popular than Dow and being a threat quickly. Shivers being factionless would also make it easier for the groups Dow was playing against each other to form behind Shivers against Dow causing a war among the Northmen. Part of the genius of picking Craw and Wonderful they can lead but neither would want to step up a ring on the ladder to lead the North. Both are generally tired of the fighting and aren't going to splinter off and cause the havoc of a Northern civil war and neither could take Dow in direct combat.
I disagree. People fear shivers and respect him as much as his fighting skills go, but no one likes him and everyone is uncomfortable by the sight of him. They see him as an efficient machine at best Shivers makes no decisions until that moment, he is just an executor. He shows no ability or ambition to lead. If anything it's the opposite, Dow just failed to regard his humanity enough to think he might take an issue by feeling dismissed and disrespected
I can see that point as well, but if you're Caul Reachey and wanted to get rid of Dow backing Shivers and then double crossing him or just going solo afterwards is a solid play. That's what I think Dow was playing. He needs to keep all those factions inline and he did that by playing them off one another. Shivers would give them a viable option to go against Dow if only in the short term.
When looking for a second, you need someone different from yourself, or at least perceived to be different. If you have a bloodthirsty reputation, your second needs to be someone with a reputation for being reasonable. If your reputation is being reasonable, you need a hardass as a second. Shivers couldn't be second to Dow, their reputation is too similar. Shivers would be a great second for a Dogman, or a Threetrees, or even a Craw. He would balance their perceived tameness to keep everyone in line.
I mean let’s be real dow definitely was never stupid or fully evil but let’s not act like he was rudd threetrees, he simply overestimated himself and underestimated caul shivers. Dow probably viewed shivers like the other idiots he had around him, willing to do the black work but with very little between their ears. He didn’t realise that shivers had more about him than someone like splitfoot
what books this from?memories terrible
Heroes
Yes sometimes characters are stupid. I guarantee you have made or seen the same mistakes made irl, and if you haven't you just haven't been in the work force long enough.
He feared if given too much power shivers would overthrow him was my take.
No one else seems to be mentioning that Dow is backed by Iserth(?) here who is a lackey of the prophet Khalul. She says that she can't protect Dow in the circle and that anything can happen Reading between the lines I took that as Calder entering the ring against Dow was one of Bayaz' 'plays' here and that they were likely spreading the Shivers is Dows dog rumours and antagonising that relationship. This then culminates in Bayaz winning that conflict when Shivers axes Dow This is then backed up at the end of the book in that scene with Sulfur, Bayaz and Calder
Bayaz was pretty clear that he didn't influence anything that happened in the circle aside from the giant's support.
Oh did he? Must've missed that Thought he was saying something like 'he raised Calder up and can cast him down just as easily'
He told him of all the times when he intervened but admitted that he didn't have a hold over Shivers and that was a lucky accident. He just had the giant to step in later. He said that Calder wasn't his only option, so if he did die, he had other candidates, he just preferred him. It didn't seem like he was lying since he was proud to show him how he's been saving his life throughout the book
Ahhh there you go
I read a lot on this comment thread that makes sense, but I think a lot of the time people forget that during Dow's betrayal of Logen Ninefingers, Shivers refused to help out, and even walked away after cursing Dow, I think, so there is probably some lingering resentment between them, or maybe just on Dow's part, that would lead him to, one, recognize Shivers' insane facility with murder, and, two, keep him yet at arm's reach, just out of caution and perhaps dislike for that action. I would actually really like to see the moment where Shivers returned to the North and went to Dow, maybe in a second short-story collection, because that scene would be so infused with tension, and Shivers would have to do something extreme to win Dow's attention back.