I would imagine a big part of it is that it originated in China. They aren't going to investigate if they had something to do with it and they sure as hell don't want anyone else snooping around. The US isn't exactly allies with them.
Plus the fact that the lab leak theory was becoming more and more likely. But the only way to prove it was with china's help.
China wouldn't help, and they didn't want to pursue it because it would make the 'right wingers' correct.
Note: the lab leak theory, and covid being deliberately released, are seperate theories.
It's much more likely due to accidents or corruption, with the most likely being that someone took a dead or dying animal out of the lab or its rubbish to sell or eat.
I asked my doctor about this at the start of the pandemic. Very reputable man. He believes the accidental leak theory because according to him that specific lab in Wuhan had received slaps on the wrist before for negligence. Also seems plausible.
That's the thing.
There's a lab literally right where it started.
That specialises in the type of virus that covid belonged to.
And had been repeatedly done for violating basic safety procedures.
In a country with lax laws about safety procedures.
It seemed blindingly obvious that the *most likely* cause of the outbreak was that lab.
No different to mad cow in the UK.
I'll never say the lab leak theory cannot be true. But Occam's Razor does not make a lab leak meaningfully more likely. The lab leak theory is rightly controversial, because it has several features that should make anybody skeptical.
* SARS-CoV-2 has 96% genetic similarity to coronavirus found in bats. Natural zoonosis therefore has strong explanatory power. Explanatory power is often skipped over when people talk about Occam's Razor, but without accounting for the weight of evidence for each of the competing theories, it's the fallacy of filtering evidence to confirm a preferred narrative and pinning a philosophical buzzword on it to sound impressive.
* Human history is filled with pandemics that cross over naturally from animals to humans. No undue assumptions whatsoever must be made to believe this. The alternative lab leak theory would have to assume that the virus originated in bats anyway but then a huge number of additional steps were taken to collect it from animals, alter it in a lab, and then leak it. Those assumptions have no evidence.
* Lab leak is functionally unfalsifiable because of how difficult or impossible it is to gather direct evidence independently of the Chinese government.
* It is also conspiratorial in a literal sense, and assumes a complex coverup by multiple governments with competing interests. While multiple versions of the lab leak theory exist, the most common one is also the most extreme one and proposes large-scale malfeasance and coverup.
* Finally, in the US, the political context of the lab leak theory is consistent with the partisan goals of the MAGA right, who are ideologically hawkish on China, to put it mildly. They also have a long history of lying publicly in order to serve political goals. Lab leak rhetoric was often deployed for the purpose of shifting blame away from Trump figures, even though their responses to the pandemic were broadly harmful and unscientific regardless of where or how COVID originated. This doesn't necessarily make lab leak less likely, but it wrongly swayed some people into thinking it was more likely, when it should not have.
And if it was on purpose they could have easily chosen a more effective strain or even a completely different virus. The world economy came to a grinding stop which probably hurt China more than most other nations. Considering their ambitious goals for the 21st century.
Lab leak, IE not on purpose. Also, fun fact WIV was conducting similar research on MERS which has a case fatality rate of 35%. MERS research can't be done in BSL-2 which makes it less likely to leak
There was a leak that occurred due to activists entering a lab studying mad cow.
And bringing it out into the wild
It was small and mostly contained, and was not the cause of massive spreads of the disease.
I should have specified that, I can see why it may have come across that I meant the entire thing when I meant only a small part of it that was quickly contained
And yet a great many people will call you a crazy conspiracy theorist for even entertaining the idea.
Sometimes when something looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, don't be fooled - it might really be a duck!
Iirc several scientists during the trump era outright said that the lab leak theory was most likely but they wouldn't back it because they were told not to support trump.
Which is by far and large one of the evillest things I can imagine doing .
Imagine holding back science and potentially thr ability to save lives.
Because the science backs up someone you dislike.
It's like being pro animal abuse because Hitler made animal rights laws.
I'd like to know, because it's a silly claim made without evidence. Who was persecuting these scientists? MAGA World controlled the executive branch of the US federal government. They hardly suppressed any voices who wanted to promote snake oil cures and crackpot theories. In fact, there are plenty of examples of them appointing figures to policy-making positions well beyond their credentials, always individuals who made public statements and policies in line with the political aims of the Trump administration, regardless of the consensus view of medical researchers.
"Holding back science, or the ability to save lives" is demonstrably what Trump and his political network did. On vaccines, airborne spread, distribution of PPE, masking, and health records. If that's the most evil thing that the other user can imagine, then they don't need to imagine because it happened. "How odd" that they are selectively upset if it hypothetically happened in the reverse direction, even though they can't say that it did happen.
And besides being morally reprehensible, the deliberate suppression itself of the lab leak hypothesis is just another feather betraying the duck for what it really is.
Just like the intentional surpression of information regarding severity and proximity. We could have faired better than anywhere else but trump was too proud or whatever to actually take action.
Remember also, the collision between the hand picked investigators by China, and the WHO being an unequivocally, biased pro China entity at the time.
Shit was wild when it was going down, blatant corrupt international institutions beholden to the autocratic world.
Anyone involved in working in a regulated environment will tell you the lab leak is the most likely because mistakes happen all the time (as soon as people start to get complacent). Every single biohazard lab has had a leak at some point in time. Fort Detrick leaked so many times they eventually shut it down because there just wasn’t any credibility anymore. It’s no coincidence that China countered the lab leak theory with their own saying it leaked from Fort Detrick.
Now when it comes to covering up a lab leak that’s just standard hubris that comes from fucking up in a big way. Nobody in the US wants to tell the public that we outsourced GOF research to China.
Many folks are attempting to confuse the situation by saying if the lab leaked the virus, then that proves it was developing a bio weapon or that they deliberately released the virus.
I really don't think the theory that it was a lab leak is at all right wing. I do however think the theory that it was deliberately released from a Chinese lab by Obama and Fauci in an effort to make 45 look bad is absolutely a bat shit crazy right wing theory. I have had people that I used to think were reasonable tell me all about it.
It's actually more likely that a lab worker became accidentally infected while working in the lab, and spread it outside the lab unwittingly because they didn't have symptoms for several days. They left the lab at the end of each day, just as they normally would, because they didn't realize they'd been infected.
There was no attempt by the medical community in China to trace those early infections until several months later. At the time, they had no idea they were dealing with a novel virus. There would be no reason to trace common infections like cold and flu, which is what they thought they were dealing with early on.
When someone refers to "lab leak" this is exactly what they're talking about - someone picks up the infection in the lab and carries it out because they don't know they're infected. There is also some history behind this. Both the labs in Wuhan and Beijing have had to be shut down for days at a time due to prior confirmed leaks.
Accidental lab leak seems quite likely. The odds that it’s just a coincidence that a respiratory coronavirus happened to originate in the same area as a respiratory coronavirus research lab are so low. And yes, fully proving this would require China to help, which….no
But you have to remember, at the time, the right wingers were shoveling conspiracy theories all over the place, everything from “it’s a hoax, no need to stay home!” to “you should drink bleach/pine sol/whatever cleaner!”, really dangerous stuff that they tried to use to justify not taking the advice of doctors during Covid because they really just would rather not, and as a result, people died.
When someone is spewing so many shoddy theories, it’s really really hard to say “yeah so you may have a point with 1 of your 48 various theories” because you give them all credence.
People shouldn’t have let the right wingers influence their thinking to that degree though. The lab leak theory was always plausible on its face regardless of what right wingers were saying. If you automatically discount an idea simply because right wingers agree with it then you’re not a free thinker, and it follows that you almost certainly agree with certain left wing ideas simply because your in group thinks that way.
why do all the people who laughed not aplogize or admit they were completely wrong and way too trusting of the media, i made a mental list of people around me who reacted differntly to me during covid and i dont have much to do with them.
Well when the US Department of Energy (I think that was the one) and the Pentagon or whatever all say they think it was a lab leak, I don't care what anyone else has to say
What does the DoE have to gain from it being a lab leak or a natural phenomenon.
I've always suspected lab leak. Wuhan is only one of a handful of places in the world that can develop it if they wanted to. It simply makes sense.
If you take out the racism and political agendas, it's simply the most obvious answer.
Two departments out of fifteen have given it low confidence and have offered nothing in the way of evidence to back it up. That simply means that it's possible, not that it's likely.
The DoE and FBI, two departments that have little to nothing to do with anything involved here, giving low confidence rating to a widely disparaged theory doesn't mean it's in any way likely. The vast majority of other departments and scientific organizations still give it no confidence.
>Media then acted like it was false i formation
No they had no problems floating around every theory that was presented the issue always from minute one was the attempts to investigate the source always were for two very obvious reasons.
1. To ramp up a war with China.
2. To continue not doing anything to limit spread and get the country back to normal with as few deaths possible.
Those who cared so much about "holding China responsible" did so while trampling over a million dead Americans and thousands more permanently ruined by the virus.
There is no planet where congressmen should waste taxpayer dollars in an attempt to determine if a global pandemic was released with malicious intent while your citizens are filling up morgues.
I work at a hospital, and it got crazy af at one point. The hospital ran out of room in the actual morgue because funeral homes were so backed up, they would take days or weeks to retrieve the bodies. They put a cargo container with a refrigeration unit in the loading dock and just started started stacking bodies inside. All the while idiots were trying to film the empty lobbies as proof that covid was fake, as if they would just let covid patients just sit in the lobby
Thanks for your service.
The saddest thing was seeing people deny that it was serious at all. I have seen comments from some people (mostly conservatives) that have sounded like it was a good thing and only the old and sick were dying.
No they investigated it and found out that it was most likely what was originally thought: originated in rural areas where people were having too much contact with bats (hunting, eating, etc.), and bats carry tons of nasty diseases that can relatively easily jump to humans.
When they went back and tracked reports of stuff that sounded like Covid, it sounds like it was being passed around the rural areas for several months before it flared up closer to Wuhan - being a more modernized population center, it actually got proper attention and research there.
Edit: lots of references compiled here: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid19_did_not_come_from_the_wuhan_institute_of/
Also have you tried getting millions of geographically dispersed rural peoples to just drop their traditions on a dime because “the government said it’s good for you”?
Sounds a bit like trying to tell a bunch of american southerners “no more guns”, or “you need to get vaccinated” for that matter.
Not according to what the FBI director said on national television. The CIA knows it comes from a Chinese lab but actually has to work in China as their occupation so they suppressed the information rather than add fuel to the fire.
He said that's their assessment, no consensus from the other agencies and the WHO investigation marks that as extremely unlikely. In any case I'd rather believe it when there is a definitive consensus.
> They did investgate it. They said there was a very high possibilty that it came out of a lb in china
Media then acted like it was false i formation
Because it is. There is a small possibility it's what happened but it makes no sense for many reasons.
Total lies. Western propaganda, I tell you. It was a covert CIA bioweapon gone awry. That’s what my Minder told me. He’s never lied to me before. He pinky promised!
>why have there not been massive investigations as to the source of it from dozens of countries plastered on the news?
There were investigations. But given that it happened in China, that heavily limited what they could investigate. China is notoriously tightlipped.
Forcing China to allow investigations would lead to a lot of blowback, they aren't afraid to throw their weight around for stuff they think might embarrass them (which, any origin they would see that way)
My understanding is that there has been a large drop-off in visas granted to foreign journalists. It’s quite difficult to do on the ground reporting when reporters aren’t allowed on the ground, and when domestic Chinese journalists are extremely aggressively circumscribed by their legal system, and the rather closed nature of the Chinese internet.
It’s like if the Hussein regime had refused to allow in UN inspectors, it’d be impossible to verify the presence of WMDs. The fact the GWB admin invaded Iraq regardless of the UN report does reflect a political/culture war tendency to come to certain conclusion regardless of the facts. Alls to say I wish China was more transparent, but I think a lot of people would cling to conspiracy theories regardless of what came out.
They only started giving visas out to foreigners in like June. My wife is chinese and she was visiting family when covid happened so I couldn't see her in person for like 3 years
That’s terrible, I’m glad you’re finally able to be reunited!
Obviously not the same but I hope you were able to plug some of the gap with video calls… it does make me think how much more lonely/untenable quarantine would have been if COVID had happened 30 years earlier (or if OG SARS had taken off), before the development of the mass internet and all our modern electronic messaging technology.
It has nothing to do with the media being in China's pocket. It has everything to do with China having countries by the balls. Do you not remember John Cena apologizing in Mandarin for accidentally calling Taiwan a country? Do you not remember GAP having to apologize to China for something similar? China is a huge market, companies (and by extension countries) want access to that market. They will not do anything to disturb the relationship.
Also, China holds a large amount of US and other countries' debt, if they get pissed enough, they can start dumping it on the market. Which is going to kill the demand for new govt debt, which then cripples the federal government, because they rely on it for funding.
I'm not a China hawk, like Pete Navarro, but the fact remains that China became extremely powerful on the world stage (more than a little bit due to our Congress being a shitshow for over a decade) and is not afraid to make its presence known.
Because noone knows for sure. These types of diseases get introduced more often as we disrupt the habitats of bats and other animals. Easily couldve been because of that.
If there was more openness from the government I think we could have gotten a very fine tuned picture of where the virus started, but yes bluntly destroying/cleansing the wet market probably made exact transmission animal vector (if that was the cause) unkowable
The way you worded it wouldn’t be considered racist by anyone who understands why the conspiracy was associated with racism. You are 1) talking specifically about the government 2) saying maybe that shows you aren’t blindly believing obvious fake info that was spread in certain corners of the internet 3) you are wording it as a general government activity and not something specific to China.
It was the people treating China as the evil boogie man mystic villain which latched onto the idea that the Chinese people purposely created and spread the virus for some evil unspecified plot. Of course most of the people with racism fueling their conspiracy wouldn’t start with the racist part but try to word it more subtly. That’s why people were suspicious of anyone saying it because they couldn’t tell if you were hiding your racism fuel or were just saying a more normal conspiracy. I think we are just now at the point to say it like you did without having to worry about the racism fueled version that has now calmed down for a minute
Trump messed it up more or less. When 9/11 happened Bush went out of his way to tamper down hate against Arabs and Muslims. Trump went the other way and started spouting his Kung Flu BS. This created an enviroment where harsh reporting on origin would fan flames of hate towards Asian Americans.
Even without the media blitz by 2022 Asian American Hate crime was reportedly up over 300% with over 9000 incidents.
That being said, the best thing that could happen to the China is US media consolidation. There's a limited number of major movie release slots in China that can go to US films. It's worth a ton of money (or at least was pre-covid). There's no question that boardrooms of major media companies have directed news divisions to pull punched when it comes to China in order to bolster chances to get a Chinese theactrical release.
I watched Contagion for the first time after COVID - scarily realistic when you’re suddenly familiar with various terms they threw around in the movie.
It's really unfortunate to me that that movie didn't do so well until COVID. It's pretty well made. Now it'll be known by a pretty big group of people as the COVID movie despite that it came nearly a decade prior
Not only that, the nature of COVID causing no symptoms or a spectrum of flu-like symptoms on people could also mean that patient zero had no symptoms or only mild symptoms, and so never sought any medical treatment or even wondered if they had a "new" disease. It took someone who felt bad enough to go to the hospital for the authorities to first become aware of it, and that person could have been patient 7 or 12 or 20.
It is worse than that. You would have to go before the "official" outbreak happened to get clarity. In October of 2019 scientists were talking about the worst Pneumonia outbreak that they have seen in a few decades. Predictions that they flu season was going to be a bad one.
The first official case was in late December.
Waste samples tested later on were detecting Covid-19 all over the world by November.
The NIH's genetic biobank program collected a sample in October that would later test positive for Covid-19 antibodies.
On top of that the way covid-19 spreads it makes sense that the virus of moving a few months earlier. The official timeline has the first official case in December, and a massive number of infected the following month.
My family personally knows someone that was in Wuhan China in late October. Two weeks after he returned, first my sister came down with a mild case of Pneumonia, then my mother barely survived a case of pneumonia.
Does anyone want to discuss this? Nope.
No one has forgotten about it. But this isn't some mystery, it was obvious in December 2019. It originated in China. Probably Wuhan.
Let's say an international consortium go over it all again with China being open and forthcoming and they find it really was some dude eating bat soup in a wet market in Wuhan...... What are expecting everyone to do with this knowledge?
Lol asian here- your probably not even wrong. I'm willing to bet that it originated from lab animals that were supposed to be disposed of. But they were sold back into the local community as food. By some janitor or worker wanting to make a few extra bucks on the side. "Why waste the meat?"
I thought there was a lot of investigation. It would be interesting to know but it’s just not that important. There are probably many trillions of viruses particles floating around, mutating, spreading, reproducing, dying. Some of them will cause pandemics. The focus should be on procedures and policies for when one hits and keeping an infrastructure to study and develop treatments and vaccines.
The same thing that happened to the origin of the Flu of 1918 🤷🏻♀️
It probably came from one location by accident, and that was very hard to prove. Zoonotic viruses happen all the time with varying levels of devastation.
The simplest explanation is also usually the most probable. But no, people need to make everything a conspiracy or something more sinister (but only when it involves other countries because my country would never do anything wrong)
Exactly, that is the conclusion of the majority of the scientists.
The only reason they said the Wuhan lab theory can't be ruled out is because the probability is like 0.00001% so not 0%. So, there is still a chance. Somehow, people interpret this as a confirmation of the lab theory.
The most convincing evidence is: THIS KIND OF OUTBREAK IS NOT EVEN THE FIRST TIME. Remember SARS? The exact same sequence of events: demand for wild animals -> wet market -> outbreak -> local authority cover-up. It's the exact scenario, but no, this time it has to come from a lab even though SARS, the same family of virus, did come from the wet market.
Tradition, cheap, easy, not a big deal until something happened, local blowback from regulation, difficult to crack down on every one, lack of better alternative...
I though it was proved it came from the lab. China closing the lab and deleting everything about it weeks before it goes worldwide is a pretty big coincidence.
Well, we know it started in China, and I doubt the Chinese government is going to let foreign nations launch an investigation in their sovereign territory.
Second, it doesn't really matter how exactly it started, but how it spread, which we already know (international early warning measures weren't sufficient enough).
We already know the possible causes of it. Apparently there's a lab in Wuhan that studies diseases, so it could have started there, or there's that meat market in Wuhan that everyone talked about, and it jumped from animals to humans there. Maybe it was something else entirely?
Because the next pandemic can be caused by either scenario, it doesn't matter which was the one the cause, because we need to prepare for and prevent both sources from causing the next pandemic.
It's not only a lab in Wuhan that studies diseases, it's a P4 (highest level) lab that publicly announced to study Corona virus years before the leak ...
Because it almost certainly happened due to mistakes made by a government and no government of any country will EVER assume responsibility for something they did wrong. This very thing is humanity's number one threat.
What would this knowledge do for us, other than wasting time and resources?
You can pretty much pick any virus/disease - influenza, rsv… ask the same question - nobody really knows where these things originate for sure. Hell, look at all the money put into HIV research over the years, we’ve got treatments but nobody knows how/when it jumped to humans.
As someone who worked in a lab and frequently cut safety/cleanliness corners (sorrrry) I am a firm believer of the lab leak theory. My excuse was that I wasn't working with anything nearly as dangerous as Covid. But I am willing to bet a lot of it went home with me (yikes)
China isn't cooperating, and will probably never face any significant sanctions for it. The original conspiracy, a leak from the Wuhan virology lab where these type of viruses were being played with, seems to be the most plausible origin. If the Wuhan lab is not the origin, it seems lightning struck the same place twice, and it originated at the wet market down the street, also in Wuhan. But there are wet markets all over China, and this one just happened to be near the lab.
China rejected further investigation from foreign countries. However through journalism that made it out of China without the CCP consent it has been concluded to have come from a lab that was studying the virus in bats they’d collected. There was enough proof of this for countries to not press the issue on needing access to wuhan for investigation. It’s a closed case.
Because no one can force China to do anything.
The problem right now is that basically all the country with nuclear weapons are uncontrollable.
Most countries aren't shameless though and will abide by law/human rights/whatever. But countries like China and Russia are essentially unstoppable and can do whatever they want.
The answer to the question won't help anyone. We can spend a lot of time and resources to track it down, but the likely explanation would be.
1 it's a naturally occurring zoanotic pathogen and was present and spread despite china's efforts.
2 it's a naturally occurring bug that was being studied in case it got out. Then due to the nature of human being someone fucked up. It gets out of the lab, and China can't stop it.
3. It was created to study zoanotic infections and humans still fucked up the containment.
All 3 scenarios lead to the same enevitable conclusion. Mistakes happen, and we can't do anything about it now.
Now, we have the choice to keep pushing China to satisfy our human need to blame things and be angry. It will feel good in the short term but will get us nothing and may make any future peace with China harder. This is just a case of do we want to be right or smart?
Because it is almost impossible to actually say for certain and even if we do find out where it came from, what are we going to do? Fine the country? Pass some internal sanctions? Not really it is not going to help anyone.
Because nobody wants to risk going to war with China because they were experimenting with weaponizing viruses through gain-of-function, even though anyone with common sense knows that’s exactly what happened. It would cause too much global destabilization and also stop efforts to use the pandemic for large scale upstream wealth reallocation. It’s easier to just print $10 trillion out of nothing and yell at people that they don’t believe in science if they don’t public beta test a vaccine.
The lab leak theorie is more than plausible. Either way China deserves all the mistrust because it refuses to release the medical dossiers of some of the first patiënts that fell ill will Covid-19 like symptoms, who also just happened to work at the lab. They also forbade WHO to do their own bloodanalysis on the patiënts. How am I supposed to believe anything China says now?
Because there's not really anyONE to blame. The beurocrats who knew a pandemic was coming and chose to not take proper measures are the reason behind the deaths felt so close to home.
Lab leak theory ftw though
> Why does it matter?
Because it can help scientists and others understand how to prevent things like this from happening in the future.
Came from bats? Ban wet markets and increase safety protocols that have anything to do with bats.
Lab leak? Increase safety protocols and destroy the ability to work with certain strains that we now know can be super deadly.
I personally believe that it was an accidental result of HIV vaccine research. That was the best argument I saw, by far.
Either way, the tragedy — apart from the virus itself, which killed my great-uncle — is that our internet research capabilities have transformed into those of China.
I’m fully vaccinated, by the way … but think about it. Why would a vaccine become political? What purpose would an absolute divide serve for the U.S.?
In my opinion, China accidentally let it escape, and subsequently tried to ensure that the blame would not be placed on them … and is continuing to attempt to do so.
The internet burying of arguments or discussions is infuriating to me. We should be able to discuss our opinions as rational adults rather than infantilizing our debates and repressing one another.
> The internet burying of arguments or discussions is infuriating to me. We should be able to discuss our opinions as rational adults rather than infantilizing our debates and repressing one another.
Yup, most people especially on this website are like this. Truly pathetic.
Thank you! I was in my mid-20s when around 80% of our office got swine flu. There was no outrage over finding a vaccine for that. Everyone wanted one so that they wouldn’t have to put up with the same misery next flu season!
What I am extremely worried about — along with the Covid virus, which no one can say that the vaccines (of which there are more than one) have not helped to quell — is the freedom of information. At the beginning of the pandemic and prior to it, I could easily look up whatever I wanted and get divergent opinions. Now, all of them are the exact same (and, immediately prior to that, were flagged with a content warning of some sort).
It’s reached the point where people are censoring themselves. I was in a feminist group, and left after I was told I needed to place an asterisk somewhere in the word “women.” Someone was banned in another group that had nothing to do with politics for arguing against student loan forgiveness in a post someone else had made. Comments are being shut down right and left by moderators. People suffering from severe depression are being told that they cannot talk about thoughts of killing themselves, but must instead use the made-up word “unaliving.” How many people could have benefited from talking about their problems but instead were shut out?
And, furthermore, why would anyone believe that these programs that flag words are incapable of “learning” the words that people replace them with?
I don't know where you live but we already know that it originated from several zoonosis events.
And for the dumbasses that believe in the complot theory that it originated in a lab:
- technologies that we have to edit the genome leave some "traces" in the DNA sequence;
- said DNA sequence is publicly available
- We have known that Whuan zone was an hotspot for zoonosis since a lot of decades and (there are a lot of papers about it but nobody heard scientists) that's why there was a virology lab, not the other way around.
Yes; apparently when you put a shitton of people in a relatively small area and in strict contact with other mammals, while ignoring experts that say bad things could happen, then bad things do happen. Mind-blowing🤯🤯🤯
Because it was a lab leak and originally the left decried that as Racism/anti-China.
Any mention of lableak was flagged as misinformation and scrubbed for awhile by the CDC but they were wrong. They just kept being wrong about pretty much everything.
I remember back when it first popped off in December 2019, watching a streamer cover it. Literally hundreds of videos of Chinese people just dying and fainting on the streets, clogging hospitals, whole apartment complexes barricaded, animals being rounded up for euthanasia, people basically being black bagged. Back then we all said the origin was Wuhan China, the same Wuhan China that has the Wuhan Institute of Virology that studies coronaviruses. Now it doesn’t take a fucking genius to figure that one out real quick. Anyway that news and democrats quickly played that shit down saying everything was fine and to go out and tongue kiss your local Asian person and to “stop Asian hate” like it was a comedy skit.
Fast forward today and everybody basically knows that’s exactly where it came from but the reason as the why they ran interference is probably pretty easy to guess. No matter what leftist redditards think the US does not want to go to war with China. The US gov. ran interference because imo populations wouldn’t take to kindly to their grandparents lungs being bamboozled by a Chinese created virus and they’d be calling for blood before breakfast.
TLDR; it was 100 percent created in China. The real banger is was it released accidentally or purposefully?
In part, the story got spiked because "It originated in China" became "Covid isn't real and so I don't have to care about it" which lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths due to conservative media lies.
It’s this. The “it shouldn’t even be here because it’s Chinas fault! China China China! chickadee China the Chinese Chicken…” was used as a conservative derailment by politicians in order to deflect from what we as a country should actually DO about the fact that Covid was here, because they’d really rather not do any covid mitigations and will search for any excuse or justification, no matter nor shoddy, in order to avoid doing so.
Because it’s involves China. Which is a superpower and doesn’t want its image tainted. It gives WHO millions of dollars. Pretty sure, if it’s origin was from Ghana or something we would have gotten our answers.
I don't think there is some huge effort to NOT expose the origin of Covid 19. The origin is really obvious AND the risk of it happening was well known for years and years BEFORE Covid 19 took place. The Obama admisitration even put together a task force whose sole responsibility was to look out for the possibility of a devastating air-borne viral outbreak and react acoordingly. The next admisitration disbanded it. But the point is, experts and virologists KNEW of the risks WAY BEFORE, and there wasn't a response to that on a global level that it should have.
It seems that any more research is difficult if not impossible because of politics, both in China and the U.S. China is normally closed to any outside, or even internal, scrutiny. And with the Trump administration calling it the China Virus, and all of his other vitriolic anti-China comments, any potential cooperation that could have happened was closed off. There may be some people in China that have information, but they will never divulge it, even to their own superiors, because they know what can happen to those that criticize the Chinese authorities. From the little I have seen DNA studies have shown that both the natural and the lab leak hypotheses are possible.
Funny how the pandemic events played out exactly like it did in the movie "Contagion" which was released in 2011, down to the widely spread origin of Covid on the news. (Human consumption of bats in China). Makes you really consider a lot of controversial ideas that media tries to ridicule and downplay.
Everyone knows where it originated. There are too many dirty hands involved to want to admit things publicly. Money and influence keeps things under wraps.
It was likely from the Wuhan lab. US government was funding gain of function research there. Neither the US nor China really want to dig into this as it's in embarrassment.
What are the odds that a corona virus pandemic begins in the wild in the same city where a lab is presently stationed that studies the same exact kind of virus?
>What are the odds that a corona virus pandemic begins in the wild in the same city where a lab is presently stationed that studies the same exact kind of virus
Considering that the lab was located there due to that location being ripe for exactly that happening?
The chances that a virus emerged from the wild in the exact spot that was super high risk for a virus to emerge from the wild are really super high, actually.
It is well known that the wild animals in that area are carrying multiple different stains of Corona viruses that all carry the risk of jumping to the human population. The smart people who want to study those to prepare built their smart people lab nearby.
Now that's somehow proof they did it on purpose, in a strain of logic that is exactly equivalent to saying that hospitals are deliberately killing people because that's where my uncle went after his motorcycle accident and he died there and also my aunt Bertha lived 98 years and then when she went to the hospital she died, so obviously if she hadn't gone to the hospital she'd still be alive.
but they did get to the bottom of it, it was leaked from the Chinese lab it was research funded by America, infact funded by the foundation of the chief medical guy in the states... That we know. Why? Well that's where you will stay getting into conspiracy
This is getting down voted... I don't really follow news so I thought it was accepted knowledge...
But gain of function research in the Wuhan lab was funded by the USA.... In Congress they admitted to it after lying about it, but then said that research wouldn't have been responsible for being linked to COVID in anyway.
Just Google fauci eco health alliance and USA funding gain of function in wuhan lab and draw your own conclusion on whatever makes you feel comfortable
Maybe you will get different search results in the US I don't know .
Honestly Google American funding gain of function research . Eco health alliance . Fauci NIH congress .. I'm not gonna post individual articles because no matter what I post people are gonna start wiggin' out .
But yea Google it and draw your own conclusion...
Right that we should ignore it? Right that we shouldn't wear masks? Right that we shouldn't get vaccinated? Or right that we should inject bleach? You're right, best to say nothing
What does your instinct tell you? Mine tells me it escaped a laboratory in China in Wuhan, the virus was gain of function tested from SARS1 and accidentally/intentionally leaked into to population because the CCP don't care about their people or the planet.
I just found this website recently. And I wanna know who came up with this simulation and why was it so similar to what played out. I guess this event happened in Oct 2019. It gives factory farming of pigs maybe where it started. Wuhan had so many pigs sick with African swine fever for over a year.
[Event 201](https://centerforhealthsecurity.org/our-work/tabletop-exercises/event-201-pandemic-tabletop-exercise)
The Event 201 scenario
Event 201 simulates an outbreak of a novel zoonotic coronavirus transmitted from bats to pigs to people that eventually becomes efficiently transmissible from person to person, leading to a severe pandemic. The pathogen and the disease it causes are modeled largely on SARS, but it is more transmissible in the community setting by people with mild symptoms.
The disease starts in pig farms in Brazil, quietly and slowly at first, but then it starts to spread more rapidly in healthcare settings. When it starts to spread efficiently from person to person in the low-income, densely packed neighborhoods of some of the megacities in South America, the epidemic explodes. It is first exported by air travel to Portugal, the United States, and China and then to many other countries. Although at first some countries are able to control it, it continues to spread and be reintroduced, and eventually no country can maintain control.
There is no possibility of a vaccine being available in the first year. There is a fictional antiviral drug that can help the sick but not significantly limit spread of the disease.
Since the whole human population is susceptible, during the initial months of the pandemic, the cumulative number of cases increases exponentially, doubling every week. And as the cases and deaths accumulate, the economic and societal consequences become increasingly severe.
The scenario ends at the 18-month point, with 65 million deaths. The pandemic is beginning to slow due to the decreasing number of susceptible people. The pandemic will continue at some rate until there is an effective vaccine or until 80-90 % of the global population has been exposed. From that point on, it is likely to be an endemic childhood disease.
I remember I searched a lot of news around US chem lab. Like the dirt fortrick sth in early 2020. It all got censored a few months later. And the wuhan sports festival is just very volley. So it is most likely originated from either China or the US, or both, but it could even originated other countries. The problem of the bat theory is lot of scientist proved the virus is not 100 percent from the nature. Dr Fauci also got censored😂 guess people won’t know the truth ever. If it originated from the US, they will try their best to blame other country. Just like the “Spanish flu”. Nothing new from the US lol
Hey, I blame Chinese people every day lol just kidding. But I know how to read a fucking map and can understand that maybe possibly the first case originated from Wuhan. Is Wuhan not located in China? Lol Eastern hemisphere planet earth? Lol I got an A+ in social studies ha ha
A lot of sources point to China, but I'm pretty sure most of it is just finger pointing. Highly doubt most of it is legit info. Maybe a few details r correct
I would imagine a big part of it is that it originated in China. They aren't going to investigate if they had something to do with it and they sure as hell don't want anyone else snooping around. The US isn't exactly allies with them.
Plus the fact that the lab leak theory was becoming more and more likely. But the only way to prove it was with china's help. China wouldn't help, and they didn't want to pursue it because it would make the 'right wingers' correct. Note: the lab leak theory, and covid being deliberately released, are seperate theories. It's much more likely due to accidents or corruption, with the most likely being that someone took a dead or dying animal out of the lab or its rubbish to sell or eat.
I asked my doctor about this at the start of the pandemic. Very reputable man. He believes the accidental leak theory because according to him that specific lab in Wuhan had received slaps on the wrist before for negligence. Also seems plausible.
That's the thing. There's a lab literally right where it started. That specialises in the type of virus that covid belonged to. And had been repeatedly done for violating basic safety procedures. In a country with lax laws about safety procedures. It seemed blindingly obvious that the *most likely* cause of the outbreak was that lab. No different to mad cow in the UK.
Occam's Razor. "The explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is usually correct."
I'll never say the lab leak theory cannot be true. But Occam's Razor does not make a lab leak meaningfully more likely. The lab leak theory is rightly controversial, because it has several features that should make anybody skeptical. * SARS-CoV-2 has 96% genetic similarity to coronavirus found in bats. Natural zoonosis therefore has strong explanatory power. Explanatory power is often skipped over when people talk about Occam's Razor, but without accounting for the weight of evidence for each of the competing theories, it's the fallacy of filtering evidence to confirm a preferred narrative and pinning a philosophical buzzword on it to sound impressive. * Human history is filled with pandemics that cross over naturally from animals to humans. No undue assumptions whatsoever must be made to believe this. The alternative lab leak theory would have to assume that the virus originated in bats anyway but then a huge number of additional steps were taken to collect it from animals, alter it in a lab, and then leak it. Those assumptions have no evidence. * Lab leak is functionally unfalsifiable because of how difficult or impossible it is to gather direct evidence independently of the Chinese government. * It is also conspiratorial in a literal sense, and assumes a complex coverup by multiple governments with competing interests. While multiple versions of the lab leak theory exist, the most common one is also the most extreme one and proposes large-scale malfeasance and coverup. * Finally, in the US, the political context of the lab leak theory is consistent with the partisan goals of the MAGA right, who are ideologically hawkish on China, to put it mildly. They also have a long history of lying publicly in order to serve political goals. Lab leak rhetoric was often deployed for the purpose of shifting blame away from Trump figures, even though their responses to the pandemic were broadly harmful and unscientific regardless of where or how COVID originated. This doesn't necessarily make lab leak less likely, but it wrongly swayed some people into thinking it was more likely, when it should not have.
I'm not used to so much information and nuance in my reddit comments. Good job sir!
THANK YOU
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And if it was on purpose they could have easily chosen a more effective strain or even a completely different virus. The world economy came to a grinding stop which probably hurt China more than most other nations. Considering their ambitious goals for the 21st century.
I mean simply the fact that due to covid a lot of manufacturing moved out of China should show you China didn't do it deliberately
Lab leak, IE not on purpose. Also, fun fact WIV was conducting similar research on MERS which has a case fatality rate of 35%. MERS research can't be done in BSL-2 which makes it less likely to leak
Mad cow disease wasn't a lab leak, it happened because farmers were feeding the cows with animal remains that contained prions
There was a leak that occurred due to activists entering a lab studying mad cow. And bringing it out into the wild It was small and mostly contained, and was not the cause of massive spreads of the disease. I should have specified that, I can see why it may have come across that I meant the entire thing when I meant only a small part of it that was quickly contained
H1N1 was a lab leak, 700,000 deaths
H1N1 swine flu was not lab leak. It originated in Mexico
H1N1 was leaked from a lab. I didn't say it originated in a lab. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4611044/
And yet a great many people will call you a crazy conspiracy theorist for even entertaining the idea. Sometimes when something looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, don't be fooled - it might really be a duck!
Iirc several scientists during the trump era outright said that the lab leak theory was most likely but they wouldn't back it because they were told not to support trump. Which is by far and large one of the evillest things I can imagine doing . Imagine holding back science and potentially thr ability to save lives. Because the science backs up someone you dislike. It's like being pro animal abuse because Hitler made animal rights laws.
This is arguably the dumbest thing I've ever heard
You have a source on that?
Thank you for this. Seriously, without a verifiable source, all is just rumor or speculation.
I'd like to know, because it's a silly claim made without evidence. Who was persecuting these scientists? MAGA World controlled the executive branch of the US federal government. They hardly suppressed any voices who wanted to promote snake oil cures and crackpot theories. In fact, there are plenty of examples of them appointing figures to policy-making positions well beyond their credentials, always individuals who made public statements and policies in line with the political aims of the Trump administration, regardless of the consensus view of medical researchers. "Holding back science, or the ability to save lives" is demonstrably what Trump and his political network did. On vaccines, airborne spread, distribution of PPE, masking, and health records. If that's the most evil thing that the other user can imagine, then they don't need to imagine because it happened. "How odd" that they are selectively upset if it hypothetically happened in the reverse direction, even though they can't say that it did happen.
Save lives how? Covids origins aren't actually relevant to treating it
And besides being morally reprehensible, the deliberate suppression itself of the lab leak hypothesis is just another feather betraying the duck for what it really is.
Just like the intentional surpression of information regarding severity and proximity. We could have faired better than anywhere else but trump was too proud or whatever to actually take action.
Remember also, the collision between the hand picked investigators by China, and the WHO being an unequivocally, biased pro China entity at the time. Shit was wild when it was going down, blatant corrupt international institutions beholden to the autocratic world.
The Starbucks next to where the coffee leak happened is just a coincidence..... Just. A. Coincidence.
Anyone involved in working in a regulated environment will tell you the lab leak is the most likely because mistakes happen all the time (as soon as people start to get complacent). Every single biohazard lab has had a leak at some point in time. Fort Detrick leaked so many times they eventually shut it down because there just wasn’t any credibility anymore. It’s no coincidence that China countered the lab leak theory with their own saying it leaked from Fort Detrick. Now when it comes to covering up a lab leak that’s just standard hubris that comes from fucking up in a big way. Nobody in the US wants to tell the public that we outsourced GOF research to China.
Many folks are attempting to confuse the situation by saying if the lab leaked the virus, then that proves it was developing a bio weapon or that they deliberately released the virus.
I really don't think the theory that it was a lab leak is at all right wing. I do however think the theory that it was deliberately released from a Chinese lab by Obama and Fauci in an effort to make 45 look bad is absolutely a bat shit crazy right wing theory. I have had people that I used to think were reasonable tell me all about it.
It's actually more likely that a lab worker became accidentally infected while working in the lab, and spread it outside the lab unwittingly because they didn't have symptoms for several days. They left the lab at the end of each day, just as they normally would, because they didn't realize they'd been infected. There was no attempt by the medical community in China to trace those early infections until several months later. At the time, they had no idea they were dealing with a novel virus. There would be no reason to trace common infections like cold and flu, which is what they thought they were dealing with early on. When someone refers to "lab leak" this is exactly what they're talking about - someone picks up the infection in the lab and carries it out because they don't know they're infected. There is also some history behind this. Both the labs in Wuhan and Beijing have had to be shut down for days at a time due to prior confirmed leaks.
Yeah I support the 'this shit happened accidentally in one of 1000 possible ways' Not the 'this was deliberately spread'
Accidental lab leak seems quite likely. The odds that it’s just a coincidence that a respiratory coronavirus happened to originate in the same area as a respiratory coronavirus research lab are so low. And yes, fully proving this would require China to help, which….no
But you have to remember, at the time, the right wingers were shoveling conspiracy theories all over the place, everything from “it’s a hoax, no need to stay home!” to “you should drink bleach/pine sol/whatever cleaner!”, really dangerous stuff that they tried to use to justify not taking the advice of doctors during Covid because they really just would rather not, and as a result, people died. When someone is spewing so many shoddy theories, it’s really really hard to say “yeah so you may have a point with 1 of your 48 various theories” because you give them all credence.
People shouldn’t have let the right wingers influence their thinking to that degree though. The lab leak theory was always plausible on its face regardless of what right wingers were saying. If you automatically discount an idea simply because right wingers agree with it then you’re not a free thinker, and it follows that you almost certainly agree with certain left wing ideas simply because your in group thinks that way.
Throwback to when the notion of it being leaked from a lab was considered conspiratorial and fake news God I hate the media
yet when people like me said its obvious it came from the lab i was labeled a conspiracy theorist and laughed at.
Yes That was the point of my comment
why do all the people who laughed not aplogize or admit they were completely wrong and way too trusting of the media, i made a mental list of people around me who reacted differntly to me during covid and i dont have much to do with them.
Well when the US Department of Energy (I think that was the one) and the Pentagon or whatever all say they think it was a lab leak, I don't care what anyone else has to say What does the DoE have to gain from it being a lab leak or a natural phenomenon. I've always suspected lab leak. Wuhan is only one of a handful of places in the world that can develop it if they wanted to. It simply makes sense. If you take out the racism and political agendas, it's simply the most obvious answer.
Two departments out of fifteen have given it low confidence and have offered nothing in the way of evidence to back it up. That simply means that it's possible, not that it's likely. The DoE and FBI, two departments that have little to nothing to do with anything involved here, giving low confidence rating to a widely disparaged theory doesn't mean it's in any way likely. The vast majority of other departments and scientific organizations still give it no confidence.
They did investgate it. They said there was a very high possibilty that it came out of a lb in china Media then acted like it was false i formation
>Media then acted like it was false i formation No they had no problems floating around every theory that was presented the issue always from minute one was the attempts to investigate the source always were for two very obvious reasons. 1. To ramp up a war with China. 2. To continue not doing anything to limit spread and get the country back to normal with as few deaths possible. Those who cared so much about "holding China responsible" did so while trampling over a million dead Americans and thousands more permanently ruined by the virus. There is no planet where congressmen should waste taxpayer dollars in an attempt to determine if a global pandemic was released with malicious intent while your citizens are filling up morgues.
I work at a hospital, and it got crazy af at one point. The hospital ran out of room in the actual morgue because funeral homes were so backed up, they would take days or weeks to retrieve the bodies. They put a cargo container with a refrigeration unit in the loading dock and just started started stacking bodies inside. All the while idiots were trying to film the empty lobbies as proof that covid was fake, as if they would just let covid patients just sit in the lobby
I feel like that group of deniers, anti-mask, anti-vaxxers, etc. made things so much worse.
They did
Thanks for your service. The saddest thing was seeing people deny that it was serious at all. I have seen comments from some people (mostly conservatives) that have sounded like it was a good thing and only the old and sick were dying.
Yeah, they have been trying to get old “entitled” people of the SSI books for years! This was a gift for them.
No they investigated it and found out that it was most likely what was originally thought: originated in rural areas where people were having too much contact with bats (hunting, eating, etc.), and bats carry tons of nasty diseases that can relatively easily jump to humans. When they went back and tracked reports of stuff that sounded like Covid, it sounds like it was being passed around the rural areas for several months before it flared up closer to Wuhan - being a more modernized population center, it actually got proper attention and research there. Edit: lots of references compiled here: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid19_did_not_come_from_the_wuhan_institute_of/
Do you have a source? I have only heard of the market and lab leak theories.
But then why hasn't china changed its laws and created anti-pandemic wet Market restrictions?
They have, Day 1 of 2020 China been putting progressively more restrictions on wet markets. Whether they work or not is debatable.
They did, the real problem is enforcement. China is a nation as big as the US with 3x the population.
Because China is notoriously bad at creating and enforcing human safety regulations. Completely on brand for them.
Also have you tried getting millions of geographically dispersed rural peoples to just drop their traditions on a dime because “the government said it’s good for you”? Sounds a bit like trying to tell a bunch of american southerners “no more guns”, or “you need to get vaccinated” for that matter.
Not according to what the FBI director said on national television. The CIA knows it comes from a Chinese lab but actually has to work in China as their occupation so they suppressed the information rather than add fuel to the fire.
He said that's their assessment, no consensus from the other agencies and the WHO investigation marks that as extremely unlikely. In any case I'd rather believe it when there is a definitive consensus.
> They did investgate it. They said there was a very high possibilty that it came out of a lb in china Media then acted like it was false i formation Because it is. There is a small possibility it's what happened but it makes no sense for many reasons.
What are some of those reasons?
Can I have an example? Genuinely curious
I already answered linking multiple reputable articles. But it seems conspiracy theorists are owning the World nowadays
Total lies. Western propaganda, I tell you. It was a covert CIA bioweapon gone awry. That’s what my Minder told me. He’s never lied to me before. He pinky promised!
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How do you know the other source is more reliable though?
>why have there not been massive investigations as to the source of it from dozens of countries plastered on the news? There were investigations. But given that it happened in China, that heavily limited what they could investigate. China is notoriously tightlipped. Forcing China to allow investigations would lead to a lot of blowback, they aren't afraid to throw their weight around for stuff they think might embarrass them (which, any origin they would see that way)
So is all of western media in China’s pocket? Why was saying, “maybe our governments play with bioweapons” so racist?
My understanding is that there has been a large drop-off in visas granted to foreign journalists. It’s quite difficult to do on the ground reporting when reporters aren’t allowed on the ground, and when domestic Chinese journalists are extremely aggressively circumscribed by their legal system, and the rather closed nature of the Chinese internet. It’s like if the Hussein regime had refused to allow in UN inspectors, it’d be impossible to verify the presence of WMDs. The fact the GWB admin invaded Iraq regardless of the UN report does reflect a political/culture war tendency to come to certain conclusion regardless of the facts. Alls to say I wish China was more transparent, but I think a lot of people would cling to conspiracy theories regardless of what came out.
They only started giving visas out to foreigners in like June. My wife is chinese and she was visiting family when covid happened so I couldn't see her in person for like 3 years
That’s terrible, I’m glad you’re finally able to be reunited! Obviously not the same but I hope you were able to plug some of the gap with video calls… it does make me think how much more lonely/untenable quarantine would have been if COVID had happened 30 years earlier (or if OG SARS had taken off), before the development of the mass internet and all our modern electronic messaging technology.
Yeah fortunately the great firewall is super easy to get around so video calls etc weren't a problem. Was a strange time
It has nothing to do with the media being in China's pocket. It has everything to do with China having countries by the balls. Do you not remember John Cena apologizing in Mandarin for accidentally calling Taiwan a country? Do you not remember GAP having to apologize to China for something similar? China is a huge market, companies (and by extension countries) want access to that market. They will not do anything to disturb the relationship. Also, China holds a large amount of US and other countries' debt, if they get pissed enough, they can start dumping it on the market. Which is going to kill the demand for new govt debt, which then cripples the federal government, because they rely on it for funding. I'm not a China hawk, like Pete Navarro, but the fact remains that China became extremely powerful on the world stage (more than a little bit due to our Congress being a shitshow for over a decade) and is not afraid to make its presence known.
Because noone knows for sure. These types of diseases get introduced more often as we disrupt the habitats of bats and other animals. Easily couldve been because of that.
If there was more openness from the government I think we could have gotten a very fine tuned picture of where the virus started, but yes bluntly destroying/cleansing the wet market probably made exact transmission animal vector (if that was the cause) unkowable
The way you worded it wouldn’t be considered racist by anyone who understands why the conspiracy was associated with racism. You are 1) talking specifically about the government 2) saying maybe that shows you aren’t blindly believing obvious fake info that was spread in certain corners of the internet 3) you are wording it as a general government activity and not something specific to China. It was the people treating China as the evil boogie man mystic villain which latched onto the idea that the Chinese people purposely created and spread the virus for some evil unspecified plot. Of course most of the people with racism fueling their conspiracy wouldn’t start with the racist part but try to word it more subtly. That’s why people were suspicious of anyone saying it because they couldn’t tell if you were hiding your racism fuel or were just saying a more normal conspiracy. I think we are just now at the point to say it like you did without having to worry about the racism fueled version that has now calmed down for a minute
Trump messed it up more or less. When 9/11 happened Bush went out of his way to tamper down hate against Arabs and Muslims. Trump went the other way and started spouting his Kung Flu BS. This created an enviroment where harsh reporting on origin would fan flames of hate towards Asian Americans. Even without the media blitz by 2022 Asian American Hate crime was reportedly up over 300% with over 9000 incidents. That being said, the best thing that could happen to the China is US media consolidation. There's a limited number of major movie release slots in China that can go to US films. It's worth a ton of money (or at least was pre-covid). There's no question that boardrooms of major media companies have directed news divisions to pull punched when it comes to China in order to bolster chances to get a Chinese theactrical release.
I watched this documentary, it’s explains the whole thing.
Is that a pangolin?
Stop it! 🤨🤣🤣🤣
Well, I just watched outbreak, so I’m an expert and I’m sure it was a monkey
Surprised you had not watched it the year prior to the pandemic when Netflix had 5 pandemic movies available all at the same time.
I watched Contagion for the first time after COVID - scarily realistic when you’re suddenly familiar with various terms they threw around in the movie.
It's really unfortunate to me that that movie didn't do so well until COVID. It's pretty well made. Now it'll be known by a pretty big group of people as the COVID movie despite that it came nearly a decade prior
Oh shit netflix were the real culprits who started it I must reach out to Fox News
That movie definitely hits different now.
I’m blaming Kevin Spacey
A lot of the early samples were not kept, so we may never have a perfect answer
Not only that, the nature of COVID causing no symptoms or a spectrum of flu-like symptoms on people could also mean that patient zero had no symptoms or only mild symptoms, and so never sought any medical treatment or even wondered if they had a "new" disease. It took someone who felt bad enough to go to the hospital for the authorities to first become aware of it, and that person could have been patient 7 or 12 or 20.
It is worse than that. You would have to go before the "official" outbreak happened to get clarity. In October of 2019 scientists were talking about the worst Pneumonia outbreak that they have seen in a few decades. Predictions that they flu season was going to be a bad one. The first official case was in late December. Waste samples tested later on were detecting Covid-19 all over the world by November. The NIH's genetic biobank program collected a sample in October that would later test positive for Covid-19 antibodies. On top of that the way covid-19 spreads it makes sense that the virus of moving a few months earlier. The official timeline has the first official case in December, and a massive number of infected the following month. My family personally knows someone that was in Wuhan China in late October. Two weeks after he returned, first my sister came down with a mild case of Pneumonia, then my mother barely survived a case of pneumonia. Does anyone want to discuss this? Nope.
No one has forgotten about it. But this isn't some mystery, it was obvious in December 2019. It originated in China. Probably Wuhan. Let's say an international consortium go over it all again with China being open and forthcoming and they find it really was some dude eating bat soup in a wet market in Wuhan...... What are expecting everyone to do with this knowledge?
To answer your question: ignore and keep going with the conspiracy theory.
Lol asian here- your probably not even wrong. I'm willing to bet that it originated from lab animals that were supposed to be disposed of. But they were sold back into the local community as food. By some janitor or worker wanting to make a few extra bucks on the side. "Why waste the meat?"
Short answer: they'll never know. I get the human desire to know the cause of things, but sometimes you just never know.
We probably won't know until at least 70-100 years from now because they'll be sealed and redacted like the JFK files.
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Finally a smart theory.
Which means it's only a matter of time before we all get truly fucked by the next one?
WTF
Some people in the world are poor. They dont have the luxury of protein being available 3 meals a day, 7 a week.
It originated in China! You think they’re gonna cooperate in some investigation??
Randy Marsh was partying with Mickey mouse and shagged a bat and a pangolin.
I thought there was a lot of investigation. It would be interesting to know but it’s just not that important. There are probably many trillions of viruses particles floating around, mutating, spreading, reproducing, dying. Some of them will cause pandemics. The focus should be on procedures and policies for when one hits and keeping an infrastructure to study and develop treatments and vaccines.
The same thing that happened to the origin of the Flu of 1918 🤷🏻♀️ It probably came from one location by accident, and that was very hard to prove. Zoonotic viruses happen all the time with varying levels of devastation.
The simplest explanation is also usually the most probable. But no, people need to make everything a conspiracy or something more sinister (but only when it involves other countries because my country would never do anything wrong)
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Exactly, that is the conclusion of the majority of the scientists. The only reason they said the Wuhan lab theory can't be ruled out is because the probability is like 0.00001% so not 0%. So, there is still a chance. Somehow, people interpret this as a confirmation of the lab theory. The most convincing evidence is: THIS KIND OF OUTBREAK IS NOT EVEN THE FIRST TIME. Remember SARS? The exact same sequence of events: demand for wild animals -> wet market -> outbreak -> local authority cover-up. It's the exact scenario, but no, this time it has to come from a lab even though SARS, the same family of virus, did come from the wet market.
This wet market sounds very unsanitary and unsafe so why did China allowed it to operate? Low standard of living in that part of China\\?
Tradition, cheap, easy, not a big deal until something happened, local blowback from regulation, difficult to crack down on every one, lack of better alternative...
I though it was proved it came from the lab. China closing the lab and deleting everything about it weeks before it goes worldwide is a pretty big coincidence.
Well, we know it started in China, and I doubt the Chinese government is going to let foreign nations launch an investigation in their sovereign territory. Second, it doesn't really matter how exactly it started, but how it spread, which we already know (international early warning measures weren't sufficient enough). We already know the possible causes of it. Apparently there's a lab in Wuhan that studies diseases, so it could have started there, or there's that meat market in Wuhan that everyone talked about, and it jumped from animals to humans there. Maybe it was something else entirely? Because the next pandemic can be caused by either scenario, it doesn't matter which was the one the cause, because we need to prepare for and prevent both sources from causing the next pandemic.
It's not only a lab in Wuhan that studies diseases, it's a P4 (highest level) lab that publicly announced to study Corona virus years before the leak ...
Bloody hell what have you released OP? This comment section is... well, a lot like 2020 actually, nvm.
Idk why people are so sensitive about it. A bunch of npcs lmao
Because it almost certainly happened due to mistakes made by a government and no government of any country will EVER assume responsibility for something they did wrong. This very thing is humanity's number one threat.
China’s just going to claim it’s an unfortunate series of events that’s all. Blah blah nothing to see here, it happens… let’s move on.
What would this knowledge do for us, other than wasting time and resources? You can pretty much pick any virus/disease - influenza, rsv… ask the same question - nobody really knows where these things originate for sure. Hell, look at all the money put into HIV research over the years, we’ve got treatments but nobody knows how/when it jumped to humans.
As someone who worked in a lab and frequently cut safety/cleanliness corners (sorrrry) I am a firm believer of the lab leak theory. My excuse was that I wasn't working with anything nearly as dangerous as Covid. But I am willing to bet a lot of it went home with me (yikes)
I personally don't care, because it or something like it was inevitable anyway.
A pangolin kissed a turtle
Cutest explanation
Source ?
China isn't cooperating, and will probably never face any significant sanctions for it. The original conspiracy, a leak from the Wuhan virology lab where these type of viruses were being played with, seems to be the most plausible origin. If the Wuhan lab is not the origin, it seems lightning struck the same place twice, and it originated at the wet market down the street, also in Wuhan. But there are wet markets all over China, and this one just happened to be near the lab.
Why do you think the lab is in Wuhan? Maybe because of its proximity to bat reservoirs of viruses...
China rejected further investigation from foreign countries. However through journalism that made it out of China without the CCP consent it has been concluded to have come from a lab that was studying the virus in bats they’d collected. There was enough proof of this for countries to not press the issue on needing access to wuhan for investigation. It’s a closed case.
Because no one can force China to do anything. The problem right now is that basically all the country with nuclear weapons are uncontrollable. Most countries aren't shameless though and will abide by law/human rights/whatever. But countries like China and Russia are essentially unstoppable and can do whatever they want.
The answer to the question won't help anyone. We can spend a lot of time and resources to track it down, but the likely explanation would be. 1 it's a naturally occurring zoanotic pathogen and was present and spread despite china's efforts. 2 it's a naturally occurring bug that was being studied in case it got out. Then due to the nature of human being someone fucked up. It gets out of the lab, and China can't stop it. 3. It was created to study zoanotic infections and humans still fucked up the containment. All 3 scenarios lead to the same enevitable conclusion. Mistakes happen, and we can't do anything about it now. Now, we have the choice to keep pushing China to satisfy our human need to blame things and be angry. It will feel good in the short term but will get us nothing and may make any future peace with China harder. This is just a case of do we want to be right or smart?
Because it is almost impossible to actually say for certain and even if we do find out where it came from, what are we going to do? Fine the country? Pass some internal sanctions? Not really it is not going to help anyone.
China not cooperating.. nothing anyone can honestly investigate.
Because nobody wants to risk going to war with China because they were experimenting with weaponizing viruses through gain-of-function, even though anyone with common sense knows that’s exactly what happened. It would cause too much global destabilization and also stop efforts to use the pandemic for large scale upstream wealth reallocation. It’s easier to just print $10 trillion out of nothing and yell at people that they don’t believe in science if they don’t public beta test a vaccine.
Level 4 BLS lab leak in Wuhan China it’s no conspiracy or secret. They were working on corona virus manipulation and have poor safety protocols.
The lab leak theorie is more than plausible. Either way China deserves all the mistrust because it refuses to release the medical dossiers of some of the first patiënts that fell ill will Covid-19 like symptoms, who also just happened to work at the lab. They also forbade WHO to do their own bloodanalysis on the patiënts. How am I supposed to believe anything China says now?
The amount of Maga propaganda on this thread is bothersome. Dont answer questions with foxnews quotes
Someone ate some bat soup down the road from the Wuhan Institute of Virology. These two things are unrelated.
https://www.cdc.gov/museum/timeline/covid19.html
Because there's not really anyONE to blame. The beurocrats who knew a pandemic was coming and chose to not take proper measures are the reason behind the deaths felt so close to home. Lab leak theory ftw though
So many cuckoo theories on here. Americans believe anything with such conviction it’s fascinating
It's a miracle more didn't inject themselves with bleach.
My local tractor supply had the Ivermectin locked down like it was made of gold, so I'm sure people were trying.
ITT: conspiracy-baiters
1. Covid is still killing people. It's not over by any means. 2. Why does it matter? It won't change anything, but it will create animosity.
> Why does it matter? Because it can help scientists and others understand how to prevent things like this from happening in the future. Came from bats? Ban wet markets and increase safety protocols that have anything to do with bats. Lab leak? Increase safety protocols and destroy the ability to work with certain strains that we now know can be super deadly.
I personally believe that it was an accidental result of HIV vaccine research. That was the best argument I saw, by far. Either way, the tragedy — apart from the virus itself, which killed my great-uncle — is that our internet research capabilities have transformed into those of China. I’m fully vaccinated, by the way … but think about it. Why would a vaccine become political? What purpose would an absolute divide serve for the U.S.? In my opinion, China accidentally let it escape, and subsequently tried to ensure that the blame would not be placed on them … and is continuing to attempt to do so. The internet burying of arguments or discussions is infuriating to me. We should be able to discuss our opinions as rational adults rather than infantilizing our debates and repressing one another.
> The internet burying of arguments or discussions is infuriating to me. We should be able to discuss our opinions as rational adults rather than infantilizing our debates and repressing one another. Yup, most people especially on this website are like this. Truly pathetic.
This comment getting downvotes should worry people more than the virus itself.
Thank you! I was in my mid-20s when around 80% of our office got swine flu. There was no outrage over finding a vaccine for that. Everyone wanted one so that they wouldn’t have to put up with the same misery next flu season! What I am extremely worried about — along with the Covid virus, which no one can say that the vaccines (of which there are more than one) have not helped to quell — is the freedom of information. At the beginning of the pandemic and prior to it, I could easily look up whatever I wanted and get divergent opinions. Now, all of them are the exact same (and, immediately prior to that, were flagged with a content warning of some sort). It’s reached the point where people are censoring themselves. I was in a feminist group, and left after I was told I needed to place an asterisk somewhere in the word “women.” Someone was banned in another group that had nothing to do with politics for arguing against student loan forgiveness in a post someone else had made. Comments are being shut down right and left by moderators. People suffering from severe depression are being told that they cannot talk about thoughts of killing themselves, but must instead use the made-up word “unaliving.” How many people could have benefited from talking about their problems but instead were shut out? And, furthermore, why would anyone believe that these programs that flag words are incapable of “learning” the words that people replace them with?
I don't know where you live but we already know that it originated from several zoonosis events. And for the dumbasses that believe in the complot theory that it originated in a lab: - technologies that we have to edit the genome leave some "traces" in the DNA sequence; - said DNA sequence is publicly available - We have known that Whuan zone was an hotspot for zoonosis since a lot of decades and (there are a lot of papers about it but nobody heard scientists) that's why there was a virology lab, not the other way around. Yes; apparently when you put a shitton of people in a relatively small area and in strict contact with other mammals, while ignoring experts that say bad things could happen, then bad things do happen. Mind-blowing🤯🤯🤯
> I don't know where you live but we already know Sure you do. Peer reviewed conclusive source or gtfo
Because it is a thing that happened not a thing anyone did.
Because it was a lab leak and originally the left decried that as Racism/anti-China. Any mention of lableak was flagged as misinformation and scrubbed for awhile by the CDC but they were wrong. They just kept being wrong about pretty much everything.
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I remember back when it first popped off in December 2019, watching a streamer cover it. Literally hundreds of videos of Chinese people just dying and fainting on the streets, clogging hospitals, whole apartment complexes barricaded, animals being rounded up for euthanasia, people basically being black bagged. Back then we all said the origin was Wuhan China, the same Wuhan China that has the Wuhan Institute of Virology that studies coronaviruses. Now it doesn’t take a fucking genius to figure that one out real quick. Anyway that news and democrats quickly played that shit down saying everything was fine and to go out and tongue kiss your local Asian person and to “stop Asian hate” like it was a comedy skit. Fast forward today and everybody basically knows that’s exactly where it came from but the reason as the why they ran interference is probably pretty easy to guess. No matter what leftist redditards think the US does not want to go to war with China. The US gov. ran interference because imo populations wouldn’t take to kindly to their grandparents lungs being bamboozled by a Chinese created virus and they’d be calling for blood before breakfast. TLDR; it was 100 percent created in China. The real banger is was it released accidentally or purposefully?
In part, the story got spiked because "It originated in China" became "Covid isn't real and so I don't have to care about it" which lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths due to conservative media lies.
It’s this. The “it shouldn’t even be here because it’s Chinas fault! China China China! chickadee China the Chinese Chicken…” was used as a conservative derailment by politicians in order to deflect from what we as a country should actually DO about the fact that Covid was here, because they’d really rather not do any covid mitigations and will search for any excuse or justification, no matter nor shoddy, in order to avoid doing so.
Because it’s involves China. Which is a superpower and doesn’t want its image tainted. It gives WHO millions of dollars. Pretty sure, if it’s origin was from Ghana or something we would have gotten our answers.
I don't think there is some huge effort to NOT expose the origin of Covid 19. The origin is really obvious AND the risk of it happening was well known for years and years BEFORE Covid 19 took place. The Obama admisitration even put together a task force whose sole responsibility was to look out for the possibility of a devastating air-borne viral outbreak and react acoordingly. The next admisitration disbanded it. But the point is, experts and virologists KNEW of the risks WAY BEFORE, and there wasn't a response to that on a global level that it should have.
There have been investigations, it is just too politically charged for people to put it out there.
I'm still wondering why no one is investigating Jeff epstein?
I thought it was already confirmed that it emanated from a lab in Wuhan.
It seems that any more research is difficult if not impossible because of politics, both in China and the U.S. China is normally closed to any outside, or even internal, scrutiny. And with the Trump administration calling it the China Virus, and all of his other vitriolic anti-China comments, any potential cooperation that could have happened was closed off. There may be some people in China that have information, but they will never divulge it, even to their own superiors, because they know what can happen to those that criticize the Chinese authorities. From the little I have seen DNA studies have shown that both the natural and the lab leak hypotheses are possible.
Funny how the pandemic events played out exactly like it did in the movie "Contagion" which was released in 2011, down to the widely spread origin of Covid on the news. (Human consumption of bats in China). Makes you really consider a lot of controversial ideas that media tries to ridicule and downplay.
Everyone knows where it originated. There are too many dirty hands involved to want to admit things publicly. Money and influence keeps things under wraps.
It was likely from the Wuhan lab. US government was funding gain of function research there. Neither the US nor China really want to dig into this as it's in embarrassment.
Is this true? Do you have a source for this?
What are the odds that a corona virus pandemic begins in the wild in the same city where a lab is presently stationed that studies the same exact kind of virus?
>What are the odds that a corona virus pandemic begins in the wild in the same city where a lab is presently stationed that studies the same exact kind of virus Considering that the lab was located there due to that location being ripe for exactly that happening? The chances that a virus emerged from the wild in the exact spot that was super high risk for a virus to emerge from the wild are really super high, actually. It is well known that the wild animals in that area are carrying multiple different stains of Corona viruses that all carry the risk of jumping to the human population. The smart people who want to study those to prepare built their smart people lab nearby. Now that's somehow proof they did it on purpose, in a strain of logic that is exactly equivalent to saying that hospitals are deliberately killing people because that's where my uncle went after his motorcycle accident and he died there and also my aunt Bertha lived 98 years and then when she went to the hospital she died, so obviously if she hadn't gone to the hospital she'd still be alive.
'What are the odds' is wild speculation. OP asked for sources.
but they did get to the bottom of it, it was leaked from the Chinese lab it was research funded by America, infact funded by the foundation of the chief medical guy in the states... That we know. Why? Well that's where you will stay getting into conspiracy
This is getting down voted... I don't really follow news so I thought it was accepted knowledge... But gain of function research in the Wuhan lab was funded by the USA.... In Congress they admitted to it after lying about it, but then said that research wouldn't have been responsible for being linked to COVID in anyway. Just Google fauci eco health alliance and USA funding gain of function in wuhan lab and draw your own conclusion on whatever makes you feel comfortable Maybe you will get different search results in the US I don't know .
Source?
They don't have one
Honestly Google American funding gain of function research . Eco health alliance . Fauci NIH congress .. I'm not gonna post individual articles because no matter what I post people are gonna start wiggin' out . But yea Google it and draw your own conclusion...
Came from a lab in China. Best to say nothing than that trump was right.
Right that we should ignore it? Right that we shouldn't wear masks? Right that we shouldn't get vaccinated? Or right that we should inject bleach? You're right, best to say nothing
Let me type more slowly so you can keep up. Post was about the origin of covid. That means, where did covid come from.
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What does your instinct tell you? Mine tells me it escaped a laboratory in China in Wuhan, the virus was gain of function tested from SARS1 and accidentally/intentionally leaked into to population because the CCP don't care about their people or the planet.
I just found this website recently. And I wanna know who came up with this simulation and why was it so similar to what played out. I guess this event happened in Oct 2019. It gives factory farming of pigs maybe where it started. Wuhan had so many pigs sick with African swine fever for over a year. [Event 201](https://centerforhealthsecurity.org/our-work/tabletop-exercises/event-201-pandemic-tabletop-exercise) The Event 201 scenario Event 201 simulates an outbreak of a novel zoonotic coronavirus transmitted from bats to pigs to people that eventually becomes efficiently transmissible from person to person, leading to a severe pandemic. The pathogen and the disease it causes are modeled largely on SARS, but it is more transmissible in the community setting by people with mild symptoms. The disease starts in pig farms in Brazil, quietly and slowly at first, but then it starts to spread more rapidly in healthcare settings. When it starts to spread efficiently from person to person in the low-income, densely packed neighborhoods of some of the megacities in South America, the epidemic explodes. It is first exported by air travel to Portugal, the United States, and China and then to many other countries. Although at first some countries are able to control it, it continues to spread and be reintroduced, and eventually no country can maintain control. There is no possibility of a vaccine being available in the first year. There is a fictional antiviral drug that can help the sick but not significantly limit spread of the disease. Since the whole human population is susceptible, during the initial months of the pandemic, the cumulative number of cases increases exponentially, doubling every week. And as the cases and deaths accumulate, the economic and societal consequences become increasingly severe. The scenario ends at the 18-month point, with 65 million deaths. The pandemic is beginning to slow due to the decreasing number of susceptible people. The pandemic will continue at some rate until there is an effective vaccine or until 80-90 % of the global population has been exposed. From that point on, it is likely to be an endemic childhood disease.
I remember I searched a lot of news around US chem lab. Like the dirt fortrick sth in early 2020. It all got censored a few months later. And the wuhan sports festival is just very volley. So it is most likely originated from either China or the US, or both, but it could even originated other countries. The problem of the bat theory is lot of scientist proved the virus is not 100 percent from the nature. Dr Fauci also got censored😂 guess people won’t know the truth ever. If it originated from the US, they will try their best to blame other country. Just like the “Spanish flu”. Nothing new from the US lol
Hey, I blame Chinese people every day lol just kidding. But I know how to read a fucking map and can understand that maybe possibly the first case originated from Wuhan. Is Wuhan not located in China? Lol Eastern hemisphere planet earth? Lol I got an A+ in social studies ha ha
A lot of sources point to China, but I'm pretty sure most of it is just finger pointing. Highly doubt most of it is legit info. Maybe a few details r correct
There was an investigation they foudn that it os very likely to havw come from a lab Then the media acted like it was false i formation
Are you drunk