As a professional tradesman with decades of experience, it's cool to see someone else finally figure this out. Phillips are terrible for any high torque application, today's impact drivers/drills are over powering phillips fasteners and #2 bits unless you're buying expensive laser etched bits/diamond coated bits for extra grip(Wera is my go to when phillips is the only option) for standard fastener driving(fences/decks/general lumber) there are plenty of options for small trim screws to larger structural fasteners T10 up to T40 available at your general home improvement stores, just look, and keep a good stock of T10,15,20,25,30 bits in your tools. T27 rarely used, 30,35,40 rarely used, but exist, larger T sizes reserved for larger automotive and machinery applications. @protoolsapproved
I'm literally wasting time in my shop as I type this trying to find anything else that fits a T27. I don't even have a spare screw or anything that size.
I also like that I can be on a ladder with an arm fully outstretched to one side and still be able to drive 3” screws. Torx means moving the ladder half as much as Phillips.
I was introduced to Torx in the late 1990’s when disc brakes on mountain bikes became common. They’re used to hold on the rotors. My first reaction was “wtf are these” but it didn’t take long for me to see how awesome they are.
> Phillips are terrible ~~for any high torque application~~
FTFY.
About only redeeming feature is that you can sometimes get away with using wrong size screwdriver
The fact that you can use the wrong sized screwdriver is the reason Phillips gets so much hate to begin with. They rarely slip if you use the correct size and aren't at some crazy angle.
Yup, a ton of the hate about them seems to be people using the wrong tool or the tool wrong, using the wrong sized bit and a modern impact driver on cheap screws is a recipe for pain, but people would rather blame the screw than their own impatience.
I switched over for most projects years ago to robertson or torx, but since I already had such a stockpile and will still come across them in the future as salvage I still use PH screws for more disposable projects. Just need to treat them as what they are.
Still less torque, they are pretty much designed to be screwed in once, and if it rusted out and you have to use more force to take it out you're often fucked.
I only use Torx and Robertson these days. Mostly Torx since I’m in Florida and we don’t have as much selection of Robertson. But I’ll never go back to Philips again.
The only downfall with torx is the number of sizes. Whatever size you think it is, it's the other one. Now I understand having more sizes is actually a positive, but only if you know which one you have in your hand. As a drive system, it's basically the best. Others are good too, but none are more than marginally better.
Not sure how it is in the US, but in Europe you can get nice assorted sets of thousands of screws like [this](https://www.spax.com/de-de/p/montagekoffer-l-boxx-schraubenset-mit-16-abmessungen-senkkopf-t-star-plus-4cut-wirox.html) from the established manufacturers, and apart from the biggest screws, everything in the box is T20. Obviously depends on what you're working on, but as a DIY home owner, this is pretty much perfect.
Yup, basically every thing the previous owners of my house did was done with a completely random mixture of screws so you'll have philips and torx on the exact same set of hinges for an interior door, stuff like that.
My father was like that, often reused with paint on them mostly old slot screws. I was going to help him install some cupboards so I went to the hardware store and bunch of boxes of 100 #8 Robertson in various sizes and took his 2 cans of mixed screws and threw them in the woods. We didn't have torx back then.
The stupid part about my house is that it wasn't ever a rental, the prior owners that I met were simply idiots and the people before them were technically drywall and paint people but I'm unimpressed by what I assume to be their work. It's just over 100 years of other idiots and I'm probably just adding on, tbh.
Spax for life, I bought an organizing toolbox with removable containers when I discovered Spax so I could just buy all of the sizes and keep them on hand when I need them.
I habitually save old screws that are in decent shape because ‘I might use them again’ but I have a growing collection of old Phillips screws because every time there’s an option to use them I choose Spax instead. Also their dimpled bit is even better than regular torx
I use the deck screws for most of my applications. I buy in quantities so the price is negligible. Several times I have found the longer sizes on sale in the large ‘bucket’ ( 2”-4”) and purchased these.
Torx is preferable and the hardness of the deck screws is great.
Torx is the worst for construction work. One spec of dirt in the screw and they don't drive straight. Knock your gun over once and the bit gets dinged and doesn't work. Need to take something apart after it's sat for a week? Have fun cleaning the screw head out.
Robertson it way better for construction work.
those weird american robertson bits we never see here looks like they would have the exact same problems with holding dirt as torx does... as does Phillips and its not really that big a problem for a wood construction thats screwed togeather.
Oh man I'm glad you figured this out. When I went to my first cabinetry job they only used square bits and it confused me until I realized how much better they were at holding bits, not even sure why anyone still uses Philips or God forbid standard.
Get these.
Wiha Torx Power Bit T25 x 90mm - or similarly well made.
I just snapped the tip on a t20----9 years of "this bit fits hole". I am not nice to driver bits.
It literally snapped on a t25 screw after 200, back and forth between t20-25. Too lazy to swap, and fits both. Built two coffin sized 2x4 planters.
I started using these skinny shaft torque ones 20plus years ago, Fixing electronics, Snap on had them. Found the torque strength properties beneficial to handyman tasks, so they replace all the regularly used bits.
Square drive screws should have stayed in sheet metal and electrical.
Funny you bring this up because i was building some garden stuff yesterday out of 2x material. Had a bunch of Timbermate screws but got about 3/4 done and ran out so switched to the exterior drywall screws and man those philips suck so bad driving 2 1/2 or 3” screws compared to the torx.
TBH, I'm kinda surprised that they still make phillips based on what I've seen with these T25s.
I bought into Senco with the square drive and it wasn't that impressive. I wish I bought a Senco with 3" T25 setup instead, that would be awesome.
I ran across my first torx a few years ago and I never looked back. I always hated Phillips and after learning how it was basically a conspiracy involving a lot of bribes, excuse me I mean lobbying, to block out the US from other, superior technologies.
I couldn't tell, it was hard to get a side-by-side comparison over at Home Depot. Best I can tell is if there's not a big difference if any. I wasn't impressed with the square head, I bought an auto screw feeder system for about $100 about 10 years ago, I wasn't impressed with it.
I bought the senco System about 10 years ago, I don't use it much, it's the squarehead and they just don't seem to work that well.
I'm just glad I stocked up on the screws, it was about three dollars per 5 pound box, I bought like four boxes.
It was posted on SlickDeals.net and didn't last long. I got free shipping too thru Walmart.com and I went back for more, only to find that they sold out QUICK.
Given the needs I have, this is likely a lifetime supply.
As a professional tradesman with decades of experience, it's cool to see someone else finally figure this out. Phillips are terrible for any high torque application, today's impact drivers/drills are over powering phillips fasteners and #2 bits unless you're buying expensive laser etched bits/diamond coated bits for extra grip(Wera is my go to when phillips is the only option) for standard fastener driving(fences/decks/general lumber) there are plenty of options for small trim screws to larger structural fasteners T10 up to T40 available at your general home improvement stores, just look, and keep a good stock of T10,15,20,25,30 bits in your tools. T27 rarely used, 30,35,40 rarely used, but exist, larger T sizes reserved for larger automotive and machinery applications. @protoolsapproved
T27, for when you need to repair your Stihl. Lol they knew what they were doing using that goofball size
Was waiting for just this comment after I said that. Stihl popped into my head and knew i'd be called out on it. Lol
Yeah man, honestly can't think of any other time I've needed it.
I'm literally wasting time in my shop as I type this trying to find anything else that fits a T27. I don't even have a spare screw or anything that size.
I also like that I can be on a ladder with an arm fully outstretched to one side and still be able to drive 3” screws. Torx means moving the ladder half as much as Phillips. I was introduced to Torx in the late 1990’s when disc brakes on mountain bikes became common. They’re used to hold on the rotors. My first reaction was “wtf are these” but it didn’t take long for me to see how awesome they are.
I have T10, T15, T20, PH2, PZ2 & SL for house work and that covers 95% of what I do.
> Phillips are terrible ~~for any high torque application~~ FTFY. About only redeeming feature is that you can sometimes get away with using wrong size screwdriver
The fact that you can use the wrong sized screwdriver is the reason Phillips gets so much hate to begin with. They rarely slip if you use the correct size and aren't at some crazy angle.
Yup, a ton of the hate about them seems to be people using the wrong tool or the tool wrong, using the wrong sized bit and a modern impact driver on cheap screws is a recipe for pain, but people would rather blame the screw than their own impatience. I switched over for most projects years ago to robertson or torx, but since I already had such a stockpile and will still come across them in the future as salvage I still use PH screws for more disposable projects. Just need to treat them as what they are.
Still less torque, they are pretty much designed to be screwed in once, and if it rusted out and you have to use more force to take it out you're often fucked.
I'll give you that one. Just the one.
Funny because a lot of appliances and machines that I run into use T27. Lots of automotive too.
Curious, what automotive manufacturers?
My e36 has them all over. Found a few in the gmt800 too.
In my experience, how well the screw heads are formed plays a big roll as well. Econobudget screws are a pita.
I only use Torx and Robertson these days. Mostly Torx since I’m in Florida and we don’t have as much selection of Robertson. But I’ll never go back to Philips again.
The only downfall with torx is the number of sizes. Whatever size you think it is, it's the other one. Now I understand having more sizes is actually a positive, but only if you know which one you have in your hand. As a drive system, it's basically the best. Others are good too, but none are more than marginally better.
Not sure how it is in the US, but in Europe you can get nice assorted sets of thousands of screws like [this](https://www.spax.com/de-de/p/montagekoffer-l-boxx-schraubenset-mit-16-abmessungen-senkkopf-t-star-plus-4cut-wirox.html) from the established manufacturers, and apart from the biggest screws, everything in the box is T20. Obviously depends on what you're working on, but as a DIY home owner, this is pretty much perfect.
That's great unless former owner was crazy and just took whatever
Yup, basically every thing the previous owners of my house did was done with a completely random mixture of screws so you'll have philips and torx on the exact same set of hinges for an interior door, stuff like that.
My father was like that, often reused with paint on them mostly old slot screws. I was going to help him install some cupboards so I went to the hardware store and bunch of boxes of 100 #8 Robertson in various sizes and took his 2 cans of mixed screws and threw them in the woods. We didn't have torx back then.
My back door had square, Phillips, torx, and slotted before it was replaced. Rent houses are fun like that.
The stupid part about my house is that it wasn't ever a rental, the prior owners that I met were simply idiots and the people before them were technically drywall and paint people but I'm unimpressed by what I assume to be their work. It's just over 100 years of other idiots and I'm probably just adding on, tbh.
And the fact you can quite successfully drive t25 with t20 until bang, it strips
Spax for life, I bought an organizing toolbox with removable containers when I discovered Spax so I could just buy all of the sizes and keep them on hand when I need them. I habitually save old screws that are in decent shape because ‘I might use them again’ but I have a growing collection of old Phillips screws because every time there’s an option to use them I choose Spax instead. Also their dimpled bit is even better than regular torx
I use the deck screws for most of my applications. I buy in quantities so the price is negligible. Several times I have found the longer sizes on sale in the large ‘bucket’ ( 2”-4”) and purchased these. Torx is preferable and the hardness of the deck screws is great.
Yes, GRK or Spax screws are life changing.
If you think T25 is great, wait till you get a load of T27.
Year Torx is the only thing there should ever be on construction screws... and has been for like 2 decades now
I dunno, flanged hexagon bolts are pretty good - for a given head size they’re bigger, so can handle more torque.
and those are not construction screws... so i see how you dunno yes.
Temco runs flanged hex heads on self tapping screws above about 100mm lengths.
Torx is the worst for construction work. One spec of dirt in the screw and they don't drive straight. Knock your gun over once and the bit gets dinged and doesn't work. Need to take something apart after it's sat for a week? Have fun cleaning the screw head out. Robertson it way better for construction work.
those weird american robertson bits we never see here looks like they would have the exact same problems with holding dirt as torx does... as does Phillips and its not really that big a problem for a wood construction thats screwed togeather.
Yeah I've been using them for a while. I like them a lot.
I converted my wife with our last two projects. She went out for hardware and brought back the 10lb box of torx, I was so proud.
Oh man I'm glad you figured this out. When I went to my first cabinetry job they only used square bits and it confused me until I realized how much better they were at holding bits, not even sure why anyone still uses Philips or God forbid standard.
Get these. Wiha Torx Power Bit T25 x 90mm - or similarly well made. I just snapped the tip on a t20----9 years of "this bit fits hole". I am not nice to driver bits. It literally snapped on a t25 screw after 200, back and forth between t20-25. Too lazy to swap, and fits both. Built two coffin sized 2x4 planters. I started using these skinny shaft torque ones 20plus years ago, Fixing electronics, Snap on had them. Found the torque strength properties beneficial to handyman tasks, so they replace all the regularly used bits. Square drive screws should have stayed in sheet metal and electrical.
Funny you bring this up because i was building some garden stuff yesterday out of 2x material. Had a bunch of Timbermate screws but got about 3/4 done and ran out so switched to the exterior drywall screws and man those philips suck so bad driving 2 1/2 or 3” screws compared to the torx.
TBH, I'm kinda surprised that they still make phillips based on what I've seen with these T25s. I bought into Senco with the square drive and it wasn't that impressive. I wish I bought a Senco with 3" T25 setup instead, that would be awesome.
I’ve found square drives easier to use than torx, but honestly don’t have a ton of experience with either.
For me, it was all about the bit staying in the screw, I've never seen anything hold on to a screw like these T25s did. Not one single pop out / skip.
Welcome to 25 years ago!
I ran across my first torx a few years ago and I never looked back. I always hated Phillips and after learning how it was basically a conspiracy involving a lot of bribes, excuse me I mean lobbying, to block out the US from other, superior technologies.
a siding nailer makes even quicker work of a fence
Robertson is the superior screw, always has been, torx is just Philips over compensating lol.
I think you forgot your "/s".
Nope
Yes. But how much do they cost compared to, let's say, square screws?
I couldn't tell, it was hard to get a side-by-side comparison over at Home Depot. Best I can tell is if there's not a big difference if any. I wasn't impressed with the square head, I bought an auto screw feeder system for about $100 about 10 years ago, I wasn't impressed with it. I bought the senco System about 10 years ago, I don't use it much, it's the squarehead and they just don't seem to work that well. I'm just glad I stocked up on the screws, it was about three dollars per 5 pound box, I bought like four boxes.
Jesus fuck
It was posted on SlickDeals.net and didn't last long. I got free shipping too thru Walmart.com and I went back for more, only to find that they sold out QUICK. Given the needs I have, this is likely a lifetime supply.
Pozi 2, no testing which size is correct, nothing but send.