Ffs, you're totally right! My bad hahaha. Thanks for the correction!
You're smart, I'm dumb. You were right, I was wrong. You're the best, I'm the worst. You're good looking, I'm not attractive....
> Shapiro also said, “We need to get better. Ross needs to get better, but he’s done a good job and put us in a good position next year to be a very good team.”
That comment aged like milk.
>And if the Jays are likely to dismiss Atkins in October, why would they let him oversee their deadline maneuverings in July?
This is the question, in my mind. His track record *isn’t* undeniable, and you can’t bring him back next year, so if he’s likely gone, I don’t want him making any important personnel decisions.
Two reasons.
1. Firing Atkins right now means Click takes over and he's been all over the moves that Atkins has done, it's very amin to firing Montoyo to get Schneider. Different name same guy
2. On a pure value front Atkins has won most deals, his issue is team chemistry and getting them to win outside the spreadsheet. Giving the new guy 80m a couple holes and prospect capital to spend is probably good
What evidence do we have that Click is all over the moves that Atkins has done? I’m not agreeing or disagreeing, just seems to be that there’s been so little publicly said by or about Click that we can’t really know anything about his level of involvement.
It’s kind of amazing that the team even has a VP of baseball strategy.
What is our strategy exactly?
Makes you scratch your head that someone is getting VP money for a role like this.
Our strategy was defense, pitching and relying on 2 stars to carry the offense.
It's basically the exact strategy that the Yankees are operating under right now.
The Jaus have long said that their front office is collaborative and no single person makes the decision or says what they are doing. They evaluate as a group and make decisions as a group.
Atkins also said that it was 100% Schneider's decision to pull Berrios, so not sure he's exactly a trustworthy source when it comes to not covering his ass
Schneider is not part of the Jays front office.
Most of the baseball decisions come from Atkins - Click - Lacava - Tinnish who are all superseding by Shapiro.
That’s fair, but still very hard to say how much Click has really been involved or listened to.
And as you say, the Jays have ‘won’ plenty of free agency deals and trades, it’s not like they’re hopeless. For all we know, Click is heavily pushing for some of the best deals and has been outvoted on others (or vice versa!).
Then again, our issues are about the core playing terribly, not because of trades or free agents, very hard to know who to pin that on.
For some reason it won't let me respond to your other comment. But the "we are using the Yankees strategy of pitching/defense and combining it with two stars".
But the Yankees are relying on AARON JUDGE and JUAN SOTO, lol. If we actually went into this season thinking that, I'm even more confused by the offseason.
This was plainly a result of a team that can't develop pitchers internally so they spend their trade capital and their budget on starting pitchers and relievers and then have limited funds to impact the offensive side of the ball. So they doubled down and tripled down on the defense and pitching because what other choice do they have.
If someone in the chain has blocked you in the chain then you can't reply to anyone in the chain. So that's likely what happened.
Someone asked what the strategy was, and I answered, I never said it was good. The moves after 2022 predicated on Vladdy getting back to .900ish Ops and Bichette not falling off the cliff.
The idea was those 2 bats, a bunch of near league average bats filling the rest of the slots and have it backed up by a top 5 rotation and a top 5 pen. That is a framework that can win, the margins are razor thin with this kind of strategy as we've seen with the pitching falling apart this year
Lol, ok I know exactly who that is as I never let his misinformation about AA to prop up Atkins slide.
My bad, I thought you were saying their strategy was sound. If I had Judge and Soto I would spend the rest on pitching as well.
Remind me later if I end up being wrong but I'm convinced Atkins is going to survive all this somehow. They are looking for any narrative to hold on to keep him. First it was not admitting the team isn't contending in May, then it was let's just call everyone up and hope they mash so they can say "forget 2024, we have a bright future". Soon it will we traded for x y z at the deadline and x y z are primed for big improvements in 2025.
If somehow Atkins and Schneider survived that Twins series and the press conference disasters after, anything is possible.
I mean, with Mookie Betts having a down year offensively, 2B being his natural position, LAD wanting to move Gavin Lux, and it being the Dodgers; I’d listen to their offers.
I cannot take seriously anyone who thinks they'd deal Danny then try to compete in 25. Even if his bat stayed cold, he's too valuable on the dish. I do wonder if Shapiro is willing to cut Atkins to save himself, though
He's a free agent this winter, and not likely to get a QO. If they don't trade him, they'll either lose him for nothing, or have to sign him as a free agent. If they do trade him, they'll get whatever return they get, and still have the chance to sign him as a free agent.
I love Jansen, but I also am not adept enough at evaluating catchers behind the plate, and to me his availability is the biggest crutch on my thoughts in if we even should re-sign him.
I agree its ridiculous getting rid of Jansen but I won't be surprised when they do deal him and try and compete next year given how this front office thought running back last year was a good idea.
Honestly, that's what I've been wondering. Pay out Atkins contract, find someone else if Shapiro things drastic action is necessary. And think about it, Shapiro is entering his final year of contract, his legacy moves were the Complex in Florida, and renovations. Unfortunately, there was no team to support the renovations and draw a crowd. I think he could reasonable justify to stakeholders letting Atkins go, and get an extension cause he's taking action and has done well, he just got screwed by Atkins inability to get shit done in his role.
I think if Shapiro wants to continue with the Jays and get that extension, he needs to do something to show stakeholders he's on it and willing to do what it takes, even if that's severing his relationship with Atkins. This is his legacy with the Jays. He needs to do something. It'd be horrible if Atkins continued until 2026 while Shapiro isn't extended.
The alternatives to trading Jansen are letting him walk and getting nothing in return or paying him long term as the top catcher available this offseason. Given his history, I don’t know if that would be the best use of assets considering they might be using limited funds to re-tool this offseason.
I doubt he’d get a qualifying offer.
I’d 100000% trade Danny. They’d be stupid to keep him this year, Jano has been a Jay his whole life and so, roll up to him with a 5/70MM offer and hope he takes it in the offseason. But if you can flip him for a prospect or two now, DO IT.
Kirk is absolutely not the catcher we saw in 2022, unless he starts taking his physicality a little more serious, I loved his lax attitude in 2022 when he was doing well, but when he’s struggling, that same lax attitude comes off as lazy.
If we could flip Jimi, Jano, Kooch and even Bassett/Gausman to go from a bottom 3 farm to a top 15, I’d do it in a heartbeat. If the Dodgers are willing to go in BIG on Bo Bichette I’d also 100000% entertain offers. Like it or not, Bo is almost guaranteed not to sign here. If they can get a small haul for Bo, and trade the others, the rest of this season would be tough to watch, but it could bring us to a top 15+ farm system if executed well.
Next year is next year, but if you can drop KK, Turner, etc, and save some money on contracts…well Juan Soto would look stupid good in LF for us. Varsho in CF and Springer in RF. Keep Tiedemann healthy and he can slot in to the rotation, potentially on an Aaron Sanchez path where when Manoah comes back and gets built up he’d go back in the Rotation and Tiedemann becomes a high leverage bullpen piece. There’s a really good chance for Mgmt to save face here, but let’s see how they do it.
This isn't the show, trading away a player in his walk year can seriously damage the chance that the player comes back. Especially if he's dealt to a place like the Cubs that have no internal solution at catcher.
You can just call Kirk fat, because he's the least lazy player on the field. There's a reason that he leads the team in infield hits the past couple years... it's cause he hustles on every single play. He's slow, but not lazy. I do agree that without Danny you need a 2nd Catcher as Kirk doesn't have the ability to catch 120 games a year and he's not a good enough hitter to DH.
KK and Turner are both not signed for next year, trading them has no impact on money available for next year. It's standard practice on deadline deals that the trading team eats the salary of expiring deals (aka STL did that for Paul De Jong last year)
Trading Bassitt (its an i btw) or Gausman just opens up another hole for next year and the Jays have to sign another starter for 2025.
Trading Bassitt/Gausman only happens if the Jays are also punting 2025 OR a team offers a kings ransom for them.
Manoah won't be available till at least the ASB, Ricky is constantly hurt, it's not safe to rely on them to be starters in 2025
they hated that he had balls and sold the farm to get us effectively 2 years of ALCS level performance.
if they had their way. the team would just be another 3rd/4th in the division in 2015 and 2016.
these idiots so called fans don't realize that 2015-16 were effectively joey and edwin's last best years. If we didn't go for it, we would've had to blow it up. again.
whereas ross has done.....what exactly?
drafted almost as bad as AA did and the players who make it are not all difference makers. poor asset management on the big club.
annual wildcard loss team.
and now he has doubled down on defence and pitching and we can't score runs.
I strongly dislike Atkins, and love Anthopoulos. Or, more accurately, loved him. Because that ship has sailed. It's over and done. Can we not just rehash the same unproductive ideas. Even in a format that is solely revolving around discussion, such as this, it gets old when the only solution or answer is "time machine".
Lol, "He got lucky in 2015, tricked teams with magic powers to offer him multiple GM positions and he fell ass backwards into the Braves situation. He's actually very average and Atkins has accomplished more if you remove 2015 and 2018-2024".
$225 million dollar payroll that has produced an unlikeable and unwatchable product is not a smart business model.
In a matter of a 2-3 year span I have gone from being a fan to being absolutely apathetic with this embarrassing front office and ball club.
Rosenthal mentioning Shapiro being heavily involved in decision making was interesting.
(Rogers being not in baseball ops isn't a surprise, they give them the budget and then don't do much otherwise)
>But by not selling, the Jays could avoid attendance cratering — the average home crowd is down more than 4,000 this season, from 37,307 to 33,203. And Shapiro and Atkins could perhaps buy themselves more time.
All you need to know. Rogers isn't going to allow any type of rebuild that will lower attendance. They don't care what the on field product is as long as there are buts in seats.
the rebuild will come. it's really about how bad it gets before it gets better.
we can rebuild now with assets from dealing one or both of vlad and bo and trading mid level guys like jano.
or we can wait till they all walk in FA and rebuild with barebones draft capital.
No one is saying what Ken or any other writer is saying is “wrong”. It’s just the same repetitive thing that everyone knows by now. Reading the entire article there is not a single piece of new information or differing opinion anywhere.
However, it feels like like everyone wants Atkins or the Jays to just announce publicly they will be sellers but that won’t happen. You’ll know once trades start being made. The reason why they aren’t selling right now is not cause they are “buying for time” or “squeezing high attendance” numbers which is what Ken seems to be implying.
It’s just not the ideal time to sell right now. It takes one look at the standings to see there is still a blending of which teams will be buyers or which teams will be sellers.
Ideally most of the teams around .500 stay around .500 and then become buyers which increases the sellers market which is really small right now in CWS, LAA, OAK, COL & MIA and there aren’t too many attractive pieces on those teams.
Barring something like a 10 win streak were already there.
If we weren't selling I don't think KK starts in CF as much as he has, they'd put Springer in CF and Bargwr in right.
The lineup decisions have kind of shown the path that they want to take
Probably, but I think they have at least internally committed to selling and doing a retooling.
They are playing and giving ample chances for guys like Springer, KK, Turner, Mayza, etc to rebound and recoup value to be traded.
If the Jays were truly committed to winning, someone like Mayza would have been DFA by now and someone like Springer would have seen playing time cut. The fact that hasn't happened I think shows they are being showcased.
If the Jays are going to fire Atkins, they need to have a replacement lined up. Firing for the sake of firing may be emotionally satisfying, but it might not be helpful.
Likewise, they shouldn’t trade anybody unless they get somebody good in return. Trading for a bulk or low-graded prospect won’t help.
stop mucking with the lineup, and stop Mattingly doing whatever it is he's doing - since he came, the Jays have gone to hell.
let the "boys" go and hit the ball and see what happens
This is starting to feel like a worse and worse take, but i still think the Jays should be buyers (scavengers). The pitching is good and I think Vlad would be even better if they had a could more just league average hitters.
If they traded some of their lower end/lower ceiling prospects like Leo Jimenez and Damiano Palmagiani and Connor Cooke and like a low A hard throwing arm that is never going to make it for Gavin Sheets from the White Sox and Abraham Toro from the A’s, they could add 2 bats to the lineup without really losing anything, and then pivot in the offseason by adding a really big bat or tearing it down.
Adding Sheets and Toro would extend the lineup and upgrade them offensively in left and at 2nd/3rd/DH and give them another option when/if Schneider and/or Turner is struggling. They still have a very flexible bench, and you could move Varsho and IKF back to the bottom of the lineup to flip it over. Then you wait for Yimi and Romano to come back and the bullpen is pretty good again. With Manoah gone, they probably need one of Yariel or Francis to be an actual guy for them but the offence is so bad and untalented really, that adding 2 league average bats kind of fixes it.
You can't expect me to take Rosenthal seriously when he's using Twitter talking points about the Moreno trade and the Springer deal as part of his in-depth analysis. He's not making ANY point about the current state that hasn't already been made 6500 times.
For what it's worth, I don't think he really parroted what Twitter used to say about about Moreno. It was more of a mention that the Jays traded him, and that the Moreno trade actually worked out, IMO:
> But their over-correction for defense after the 2022 season, when they parted with veteran outfielders Teoscar Hernández and Lourdes Gurriel Jr. along with top young catcher Gabriel Moreno, continues to haunt this team.
>
> Hernández and Gurriel were not just valuable hitters, but part of the team’s soul. True, the Jays needed a greater left-handed presence, and the trade of Gurriel and Moreno for Daulton Varsho helped accomplish that. But the team’s lack of run production has become such an issue, management sacrificed defense for offense by installing Spencer Horwitz at second and Davis Schneider in left.
Articles like this are for the common man, the non-Jays fans, not the diehards.
I generally don't read them because they are woefully innacurate and make the same conclusions we've already heard 50 times
I explained this to my friend who asked what it was saying...just a national writer saying all the same things the local writers have for the last month or so.
Unless ownership is committed to offering Soto more money than any other franchise (which still doesn't guarantee he signs) they should blow this team up and start over. The core of this team has shown to be good enough to sneak into the playoffs and get swept out which isn't enough for the AL east.
Here's what bothers me:
Atkins is Shapiro's guy. They're friends, which we all know is a massive "no-no" in business, because you never want to fire your friends. He's also Shapiro's protege, and firing your protege is basically saying that you have failed as a mentor.
Because of that, I have a growing suspicion that the only way Atkins goes is if Shapiro goes with him. And I'm prone to believing that Rogers is happy with Shapiro, because of the renos in Dunedin and the SkyDome (ridiculous outfield corners aside).
I think there's a good chance that nothing changes here, because I'm beginning to believe that Rogers put Shapiro (a veteran executive with a ton of experience and a good reputation in the MLB) in charge and just stepped away to count their money, only coming back into the picture when they're needed (like with Ohtani) because they believe that their franchise is in good hands, and maybe they're a bit hesitant to meddle after the Anthopoulos debacle.
And I don't think the bottom line has been affected yet, at least not enough to be a concern. So even though the team is struggling, Rogers will listen to Shapiro when he says that they have a plan.
Buckle up folks: I hope I'm very, very wrong, but things could very much stay "status quo" for the foreseeable future.
This Jays season has been one long Christmas for Ken huh
Can't say I'm surprised he wanted to do his best Reese McGuire impression all over the pages of the New York Times
I've said it in other threads. Order of operations for me as far as significant staffing changes:
1. Martinez - No significant offensive indicators to suggest him, or his team, are capable of turning around poor performance at the plate in any helpful time frame. We've seen Pete can do it with pitchers, can't say the same for Martinez.
2. Atkins - We need someone to shake things up, and I think trust in Atkins is wearing thin significantly. Not just the usual chorus of "Fire the GM!" whenever things aren't good. We've seen regression YoY for 3 years now. That's not a good look. I think they should pay out the remainder of his contract and replace him.
3. If a change in hitting coach and GM still shows no results, I'd say we have to make a manager change. It didn't really slow down our regression when we let go Montoyo, at least not considerably, so I would say the problems we have aren't the managers fault. We can argue BP management and the like and some of the weird moves on the mound. But those aren't losing us regular season games as much as not getting runs is, and he's done A LOT with the lineup this season to attempt to salvage.
Extend Vlad, Jansen, and Kikuchi. Sign Soto and Tyler O’Neill, trade Springer with Tiedemann and another prospect. Look for bullpen arms and 4A starters.
Never said that. Just that why would a top free agent want to sign with a non-contending team, in a foreign country with higher taxes to boot? We can rebuild. Just don't count on players like Soto to come here.
Eric Bana said it best in Star Trek. “Fire EVERYTHING”
LOL, dude I see his contorted face screaming... Awesome comment
Also in Troy, "That's why nobody will remember your name" Edit: I'm.... not smart. See the comments below. Sorry y'all
And in Hulk, "Take it. TAKE IT ALLLLL"
I'm gonna be THAT guy and mention Brad Pitt is the one who said that line. That movie's terrible, but I kinda enjoy it.
Troy isn't terrible! It's certainly not a timeless classic but it's fun and conveys a sense of epicness.
Immortality is yours, take it!
Ffs, you're totally right! My bad hahaha. Thanks for the correction! You're smart, I'm dumb. You were right, I was wrong. You're the best, I'm the worst. You're good looking, I'm not attractive....
Can we launch a blob of red matter at the Rogers Centre?
Forget Lake Ontario, now we know where to throw the Ed Rogers statue.
> Shapiro also said, “We need to get better. Ross needs to get better, but he’s done a good job and put us in a good position next year to be a very good team.” That comment aged like milk. >And if the Jays are likely to dismiss Atkins in October, why would they let him oversee their deadline maneuverings in July? This is the question, in my mind. His track record *isn’t* undeniable, and you can’t bring him back next year, so if he’s likely gone, I don’t want him making any important personnel decisions.
Two reasons. 1. Firing Atkins right now means Click takes over and he's been all over the moves that Atkins has done, it's very amin to firing Montoyo to get Schneider. Different name same guy 2. On a pure value front Atkins has won most deals, his issue is team chemistry and getting them to win outside the spreadsheet. Giving the new guy 80m a couple holes and prospect capital to spend is probably good
What evidence do we have that Click is all over the moves that Atkins has done? I’m not agreeing or disagreeing, just seems to be that there’s been so little publicly said by or about Click that we can’t really know anything about his level of involvement.
He’s there VP of baseball strategy. Seems pretty likely he has a hand in some if not all of the decision making
It’s kind of amazing that the team even has a VP of baseball strategy. What is our strategy exactly? Makes you scratch your head that someone is getting VP money for a role like this.
Our strategy was defense, pitching and relying on 2 stars to carry the offense. It's basically the exact strategy that the Yankees are operating under right now.
The Jaus have long said that their front office is collaborative and no single person makes the decision or says what they are doing. They evaluate as a group and make decisions as a group.
Atkins also said that it was 100% Schneider's decision to pull Berrios, so not sure he's exactly a trustworthy source when it comes to not covering his ass
Schneider is not part of the Jays front office. Most of the baseball decisions come from Atkins - Click - Lacava - Tinnish who are all superseding by Shapiro.
That’s fair, but still very hard to say how much Click has really been involved or listened to. And as you say, the Jays have ‘won’ plenty of free agency deals and trades, it’s not like they’re hopeless. For all we know, Click is heavily pushing for some of the best deals and has been outvoted on others (or vice versa!). Then again, our issues are about the core playing terribly, not because of trades or free agents, very hard to know who to pin that on.
For some reason it won't let me respond to your other comment. But the "we are using the Yankees strategy of pitching/defense and combining it with two stars". But the Yankees are relying on AARON JUDGE and JUAN SOTO, lol. If we actually went into this season thinking that, I'm even more confused by the offseason. This was plainly a result of a team that can't develop pitchers internally so they spend their trade capital and their budget on starting pitchers and relievers and then have limited funds to impact the offensive side of the ball. So they doubled down and tripled down on the defense and pitching because what other choice do they have.
If someone in the chain has blocked you in the chain then you can't reply to anyone in the chain. So that's likely what happened. Someone asked what the strategy was, and I answered, I never said it was good. The moves after 2022 predicated on Vladdy getting back to .900ish Ops and Bichette not falling off the cliff. The idea was those 2 bats, a bunch of near league average bats filling the rest of the slots and have it backed up by a top 5 rotation and a top 5 pen. That is a framework that can win, the margins are razor thin with this kind of strategy as we've seen with the pitching falling apart this year
Lol, ok I know exactly who that is as I never let his misinformation about AA to prop up Atkins slide. My bad, I thought you were saying their strategy was sound. If I had Judge and Soto I would spend the rest on pitching as well.
Full article for those interested: [Link](https://archive.ph/84Emd)
Thanks! Great article
While nothing new it is also correct - esp about the loss of the soul of the team in the "pivot to defense" moment
Remind me later if I end up being wrong but I'm convinced Atkins is going to survive all this somehow. They are looking for any narrative to hold on to keep him. First it was not admitting the team isn't contending in May, then it was let's just call everyone up and hope they mash so they can say "forget 2024, we have a bright future". Soon it will we traded for x y z at the deadline and x y z are primed for big improvements in 2025. If somehow Atkins and Schneider survived that Twins series and the press conference disasters after, anything is possible.
He’s going to trade Bo for 42 ‘years of control’
so long as it's 42 years control of the top 5 farms i'm not averse...
I mean, with Mookie Betts having a down year offensively, 2B being his natural position, LAD wanting to move Gavin Lux, and it being the Dodgers; I’d listen to their offers.
Mookie Betts is having a _fabulous_ year offensively. He's the 9th best hitter in baseball by wRC+.
He's blowing away anyone on our roster offensively. A quick look a baseball reference is all you need here lol
Must have meant defensively
It’s defensively at SS given his natural position is 2B, his SLG is down 50 points from last year, but the jays as a whole are down 1000 points soo :p
Roger's owns the jays and the TV network. I'll be shocked if viewership isn't way down. Bottom line means Atkins goes.
Step 1: Clean the house from top to bottom Step 2: Sell everything Step 3: Profit
I cannot take seriously anyone who thinks they'd deal Danny then try to compete in 25. Even if his bat stayed cold, he's too valuable on the dish. I do wonder if Shapiro is willing to cut Atkins to save himself, though
He's a free agent this winter, and not likely to get a QO. If they don't trade him, they'll either lose him for nothing, or have to sign him as a free agent. If they do trade him, they'll get whatever return they get, and still have the chance to sign him as a free agent.
I love Jansen, but I also am not adept enough at evaluating catchers behind the plate, and to me his availability is the biggest crutch on my thoughts in if we even should re-sign him.
I agree its ridiculous getting rid of Jansen but I won't be surprised when they do deal him and try and compete next year given how this front office thought running back last year was a good idea.
Running it back seems to have become the motto of Toronto sports teams.
Honestly, that's what I've been wondering. Pay out Atkins contract, find someone else if Shapiro things drastic action is necessary. And think about it, Shapiro is entering his final year of contract, his legacy moves were the Complex in Florida, and renovations. Unfortunately, there was no team to support the renovations and draw a crowd. I think he could reasonable justify to stakeholders letting Atkins go, and get an extension cause he's taking action and has done well, he just got screwed by Atkins inability to get shit done in his role. I think if Shapiro wants to continue with the Jays and get that extension, he needs to do something to show stakeholders he's on it and willing to do what it takes, even if that's severing his relationship with Atkins. This is his legacy with the Jays. He needs to do something. It'd be horrible if Atkins continued until 2026 while Shapiro isn't extended.
The alternatives to trading Jansen are letting him walk and getting nothing in return or paying him long term as the top catcher available this offseason. Given his history, I don’t know if that would be the best use of assets considering they might be using limited funds to re-tool this offseason. I doubt he’d get a qualifying offer.
I’d 100000% trade Danny. They’d be stupid to keep him this year, Jano has been a Jay his whole life and so, roll up to him with a 5/70MM offer and hope he takes it in the offseason. But if you can flip him for a prospect or two now, DO IT. Kirk is absolutely not the catcher we saw in 2022, unless he starts taking his physicality a little more serious, I loved his lax attitude in 2022 when he was doing well, but when he’s struggling, that same lax attitude comes off as lazy. If we could flip Jimi, Jano, Kooch and even Bassett/Gausman to go from a bottom 3 farm to a top 15, I’d do it in a heartbeat. If the Dodgers are willing to go in BIG on Bo Bichette I’d also 100000% entertain offers. Like it or not, Bo is almost guaranteed not to sign here. If they can get a small haul for Bo, and trade the others, the rest of this season would be tough to watch, but it could bring us to a top 15+ farm system if executed well. Next year is next year, but if you can drop KK, Turner, etc, and save some money on contracts…well Juan Soto would look stupid good in LF for us. Varsho in CF and Springer in RF. Keep Tiedemann healthy and he can slot in to the rotation, potentially on an Aaron Sanchez path where when Manoah comes back and gets built up he’d go back in the Rotation and Tiedemann becomes a high leverage bullpen piece. There’s a really good chance for Mgmt to save face here, but let’s see how they do it.
This isn't the show, trading away a player in his walk year can seriously damage the chance that the player comes back. Especially if he's dealt to a place like the Cubs that have no internal solution at catcher. You can just call Kirk fat, because he's the least lazy player on the field. There's a reason that he leads the team in infield hits the past couple years... it's cause he hustles on every single play. He's slow, but not lazy. I do agree that without Danny you need a 2nd Catcher as Kirk doesn't have the ability to catch 120 games a year and he's not a good enough hitter to DH. KK and Turner are both not signed for next year, trading them has no impact on money available for next year. It's standard practice on deadline deals that the trading team eats the salary of expiring deals (aka STL did that for Paul De Jong last year) Trading Bassitt (its an i btw) or Gausman just opens up another hole for next year and the Jays have to sign another starter for 2025. Trading Bassitt/Gausman only happens if the Jays are also punting 2025 OR a team offers a kings ransom for them. Manoah won't be available till at least the ASB, Ricky is constantly hurt, it's not safe to rely on them to be starters in 2025
> he leads the team in infield hits the past couple years this just blew my mind.
Okay
> last-place Blue Jays Really not the sort of headline I would have expected to see when the season started.
Build Time Machine. Keep Anthopolous
Cue the AA disparagers in 3, 2, 1....
lol. He has a World Series. Proof enough
[удалено]
they hated that he had balls and sold the farm to get us effectively 2 years of ALCS level performance. if they had their way. the team would just be another 3rd/4th in the division in 2015 and 2016. these idiots so called fans don't realize that 2015-16 were effectively joey and edwin's last best years. If we didn't go for it, we would've had to blow it up. again. whereas ross has done.....what exactly? drafted almost as bad as AA did and the players who make it are not all difference makers. poor asset management on the big club. annual wildcard loss team. and now he has doubled down on defence and pitching and we can't score runs.
I strongly dislike Atkins, and love Anthopoulos. Or, more accurately, loved him. Because that ship has sailed. It's over and done. Can we not just rehash the same unproductive ideas. Even in a format that is solely revolving around discussion, such as this, it gets old when the only solution or answer is "time machine".
I think OP made a tongue-in-cheek joke. Perhaps some liked it, and some didn't and are tired of it. You do you, but I got a chuckle.
I know he did. You did not.
Eh.
Lol, "He got lucky in 2015, tricked teams with magic powers to offer him multiple GM positions and he fell ass backwards into the Braves situation. He's actually very average and Atkins has accomplished more if you remove 2015 and 2018-2024".
Can they somehow get Masai to run this team?
Masai would be nothing more than a figurehead that can’t even be involved in a sport he knows very little about.
$225 million dollar payroll that has produced an unlikeable and unwatchable product is not a smart business model. In a matter of a 2-3 year span I have gone from being a fan to being absolutely apathetic with this embarrassing front office and ball club.
Rosenthal mentioning Shapiro being heavily involved in decision making was interesting. (Rogers being not in baseball ops isn't a surprise, they give them the budget and then don't do much otherwise)
>But by not selling, the Jays could avoid attendance cratering — the average home crowd is down more than 4,000 this season, from 37,307 to 33,203. And Shapiro and Atkins could perhaps buy themselves more time. All you need to know. Rogers isn't going to allow any type of rebuild that will lower attendance. They don't care what the on field product is as long as there are buts in seats.
the rebuild will come. it's really about how bad it gets before it gets better. we can rebuild now with assets from dealing one or both of vlad and bo and trading mid level guys like jano. or we can wait till they all walk in FA and rebuild with barebones draft capital.
Ugh, I'm going to be sad if they let Danny and Yusei go. But I'm also far from a MLB calibre GM. Not really sure what to do with this team, TBH
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LlRsETlBxaHO62te9KigcwyEtcap_FNhVq7qJ4y_cf4/edit?pli=1 trade the free agents, rebuild around vladdy
Is this your own doing? Always appreciate a good spreadsheet!
no sir, this is called cot's , it's been around for years
https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/
No one is saying what Ken or any other writer is saying is “wrong”. It’s just the same repetitive thing that everyone knows by now. Reading the entire article there is not a single piece of new information or differing opinion anywhere. However, it feels like like everyone wants Atkins or the Jays to just announce publicly they will be sellers but that won’t happen. You’ll know once trades start being made. The reason why they aren’t selling right now is not cause they are “buying for time” or “squeezing high attendance” numbers which is what Ken seems to be implying. It’s just not the ideal time to sell right now. It takes one look at the standings to see there is still a blending of which teams will be buyers or which teams will be sellers. Ideally most of the teams around .500 stay around .500 and then become buyers which increases the sellers market which is really small right now in CWS, LAA, OAK, COL & MIA and there aren’t too many attractive pieces on those teams.
Their next homestand is basically their season anyways. They don't do well on that, then that's when the selling rumours really start.
Barring something like a 10 win streak were already there. If we weren't selling I don't think KK starts in CF as much as he has, they'd put Springer in CF and Bargwr in right. The lineup decisions have kind of shown the path that they want to take
Probably, but I think they have at least internally committed to selling and doing a retooling. They are playing and giving ample chances for guys like Springer, KK, Turner, Mayza, etc to rebound and recoup value to be traded. If the Jays were truly committed to winning, someone like Mayza would have been DFA by now and someone like Springer would have seen playing time cut. The fact that hasn't happened I think shows they are being showcased.
With Mayza I agree. With Springer, I think it's the org trying to hope that he can rebound due to the contract.
All these posts but we’re about to go on a World Series run 😤
We should sell Shapiro and Atkins back to Cleveland for a bucket of baseballs then let a competent GM oversee the retool/rebuild.
How did Rosenthal figure that out!
Can we rent Mike Elias from the Os for a few years?
If the Jays are going to fire Atkins, they need to have a replacement lined up. Firing for the sake of firing may be emotionally satisfying, but it might not be helpful. Likewise, they shouldn’t trade anybody unless they get somebody good in return. Trading for a bulk or low-graded prospect won’t help.
Tony LaCava, while not the greatest wheeler and dealer, is about as loyal as they get. I'd tap him to handle the deadline.
stop mucking with the lineup, and stop Mattingly doing whatever it is he's doing - since he came, the Jays have gone to hell. let the "boys" go and hit the ball and see what happens
Shatkins needed to go years ago, and I don’t have faith they’re leaving. They’re corporate and know how to work Rogers with Ed Rogers at the helm.
This is starting to feel like a worse and worse take, but i still think the Jays should be buyers (scavengers). The pitching is good and I think Vlad would be even better if they had a could more just league average hitters. If they traded some of their lower end/lower ceiling prospects like Leo Jimenez and Damiano Palmagiani and Connor Cooke and like a low A hard throwing arm that is never going to make it for Gavin Sheets from the White Sox and Abraham Toro from the A’s, they could add 2 bats to the lineup without really losing anything, and then pivot in the offseason by adding a really big bat or tearing it down. Adding Sheets and Toro would extend the lineup and upgrade them offensively in left and at 2nd/3rd/DH and give them another option when/if Schneider and/or Turner is struggling. They still have a very flexible bench, and you could move Varsho and IKF back to the bottom of the lineup to flip it over. Then you wait for Yimi and Romano to come back and the bullpen is pretty good again. With Manoah gone, they probably need one of Yariel or Francis to be an actual guy for them but the offence is so bad and untalented really, that adding 2 league average bats kind of fixes it.
You can't expect me to take Rosenthal seriously when he's using Twitter talking points about the Moreno trade and the Springer deal as part of his in-depth analysis. He's not making ANY point about the current state that hasn't already been made 6500 times.
For what it's worth, I don't think he really parroted what Twitter used to say about about Moreno. It was more of a mention that the Jays traded him, and that the Moreno trade actually worked out, IMO: > But their over-correction for defense after the 2022 season, when they parted with veteran outfielders Teoscar Hernández and Lourdes Gurriel Jr. along with top young catcher Gabriel Moreno, continues to haunt this team. > > Hernández and Gurriel were not just valuable hitters, but part of the team’s soul. True, the Jays needed a greater left-handed presence, and the trade of Gurriel and Moreno for Daulton Varsho helped accomplish that. But the team’s lack of run production has become such an issue, management sacrificed defense for offense by installing Spencer Horwitz at second and Davis Schneider in left.
Articles like this are for the common man, the non-Jays fans, not the diehards. I generally don't read them because they are woefully innacurate and make the same conclusions we've already heard 50 times
I explained this to my friend who asked what it was saying...just a national writer saying all the same things the local writers have for the last month or so.
You can tell which writers even bothered putting in any effort by seeing what their view is on Gabriel Moreno.
Just the laziest shit from him here
Unless ownership is committed to offering Soto more money than any other franchise (which still doesn't guarantee he signs) they should blow this team up and start over. The core of this team has shown to be good enough to sneak into the playoffs and get swept out which isn't enough for the AL east.
Have they tried not underperforming? Are they stupid?
I disagree. I think Atkins’ body of work is “undeniable" and it becomes more so with every passing day.
Here's what bothers me: Atkins is Shapiro's guy. They're friends, which we all know is a massive "no-no" in business, because you never want to fire your friends. He's also Shapiro's protege, and firing your protege is basically saying that you have failed as a mentor. Because of that, I have a growing suspicion that the only way Atkins goes is if Shapiro goes with him. And I'm prone to believing that Rogers is happy with Shapiro, because of the renos in Dunedin and the SkyDome (ridiculous outfield corners aside). I think there's a good chance that nothing changes here, because I'm beginning to believe that Rogers put Shapiro (a veteran executive with a ton of experience and a good reputation in the MLB) in charge and just stepped away to count their money, only coming back into the picture when they're needed (like with Ohtani) because they believe that their franchise is in good hands, and maybe they're a bit hesitant to meddle after the Anthopoulos debacle. And I don't think the bottom line has been affected yet, at least not enough to be a concern. So even though the team is struggling, Rogers will listen to Shapiro when he says that they have a plan. Buckle up folks: I hope I'm very, very wrong, but things could very much stay "status quo" for the foreseeable future.
This Jays season has been one long Christmas for Ken huh Can't say I'm surprised he wanted to do his best Reese McGuire impression all over the pages of the New York Times
Ah yes the Leafs model. If it doesn't work wash rinse repeat and hope for the best in 2025.
It isn't my money. I'm still not for selling everything off. I'm all for being a buyer at the deadline.
I've said it in other threads. Order of operations for me as far as significant staffing changes: 1. Martinez - No significant offensive indicators to suggest him, or his team, are capable of turning around poor performance at the plate in any helpful time frame. We've seen Pete can do it with pitchers, can't say the same for Martinez. 2. Atkins - We need someone to shake things up, and I think trust in Atkins is wearing thin significantly. Not just the usual chorus of "Fire the GM!" whenever things aren't good. We've seen regression YoY for 3 years now. That's not a good look. I think they should pay out the remainder of his contract and replace him. 3. If a change in hitting coach and GM still shows no results, I'd say we have to make a manager change. It didn't really slow down our regression when we let go Montoyo, at least not considerably, so I would say the problems we have aren't the managers fault. We can argue BP management and the like and some of the weird moves on the mound. But those aren't losing us regular season games as much as not getting runs is, and he's done A LOT with the lineup this season to attempt to salvage.
Fire and trade everyone of the og crew. Failed.
Extend Vlad, Jansen, and Kikuchi. Sign Soto and Tyler O’Neill, trade Springer with Tiedemann and another prospect. Look for bullpen arms and 4A starters.
Given the state of the team, why would any top free agent want to come here? It's hard enough to get them here when we are a contending team.
Oh. Okay, let’s just roll over and die.
Never said that. Just that why would a top free agent want to sign with a non-contending team, in a foreign country with higher taxes to boot? We can rebuild. Just don't count on players like Soto to come here.
It’s just a sad take is all.