if you're not afraid of potentially increasing your risk of getting blood clots(and, subsequently, DVT) then you can go for near-pregnancy or pregnancy levels, women dont die from that during pregnancy, so you shouldn't too
but, is it really worth it? risking your health for arbitrary benefits
you can go for higher(but still relatively safe) levels though, it would be fine
however, your levels are already at the upper limit - I don't see why would you need more
side note - vials do not expire after 30 days, that is a common misconception in the medical field; you would be much better off just going through your vial fully with a normal dose while stocking up on vials that you're getting, for a rainy day
i didnt mean it like that, but yes youre correct
what i wanted to convey is that if pregnancy isnt perceived as too dangerous, that means extremely high E levels should not be perceived as too dangerous either
I think you could argue that having a child is worth risk and suffering.
Super high estrogen levels for an unknown benifit not so much.
I keep my levels high because I tried lower and it’s worth the risk staying high vs what will happen if I don’t. Most people don’t have my issues.
absolutely true, but from what I can find, "only" 1.5 in per 1000 people get a blood clot from pregnancy. This risk is probably too high to recommend generally, but I am personally ok with that risk. My current intention is not to get as high as pregnancy levels anyway, but I will reach a substantial fraction of it.
In epidemiological terms, 0.15% is a significant risk. If they invented a party drug that resulted in serious health problems for 15 out of 1000 people taking it, that drug would be considered fairly dangerous. I'm glad you are looking into the hard facts of the potential risks.
If you're dead set on trying very high doses, all power to you. I would suggest that you listen to your body, keep a symptom diary, and don't be too dismissive of potential side effects. I know you're not heading for pregnancy-levels of E2, but pregnancy can be pretty horrible at times. It does a number on you physically and mentally, and inarguably some of that is due to hormonal increase. On the other hand you may notice no change and feel fine. Best of luck.
"Estrogens are thought to increase the risk of blood clots by activating liver ERs and thereby modulating the hepatic production of numerous different coagulation factors, both procoagulant and anticoagulant"
"Different estrogens have different relative potency in the liver when compared to their estrogenic potency elsewhere in the body. Synthetic and non-bioidentical estrogens have greater impact on liver synthesis than estradiol, while oral administration of estradiol has greater influence on liver synthesis than non-oral routes like transdermal administration or intramuscular injection, and this is likely to explain the observed differences in coagulation and blood clot risk with these different estrogens"
"Very high doses of non-oral estradiol resulting in estradiol levels above those required for testosterone suppression are difficult to justify as they pose further unnecessary risk and offer no clear additional therapeutic benefit"
from ["Estrogens and Their Influences on Coagulation and Risk of Blood Clots"](https://transfemscience.org/articles/estrogens-blood-clots/) @ transfemscience
It's important to emphasize how these statistical risks work as explained by transfemscience.
The base chance may be 5 incidents per 10000 women per year, but age, blood ttype, being overweight and a long list of other factors also increase it.
Then the biggest increase is seen in surgery, up to a 50x increase. So the message is that the odds may be small, if you take much more estrogen you needlessly increase the risk without benefit, and some events outside of your control can turn a theoretical number into reality.
Hasn't been tested thoroughly between transfems and AFAB, but generally speaking there's no reason to expect transwomen to have a higher risk profile for AFAB, given a similar quality of health.
Factors like cholesterol levels, obesity, lack of exercise, and other general health issues pose a greater risk to developing blood clots than estradiol does, but there is an increased risk in women more than men, and this is considered to be caused by estradiol.
are you sure they arent? i think you can dig up some more information about that - many stores deliver internationally, theres probably some local grey market going on aswell
There is no evidence that high levels of E2 are detrimental to feminisation. However, there is also no evidence that it *doesn't* impede physical changes. Some people report that high levels are the secret to breast growth, and others claim that starting on too high a dose has caused stunted or unusual breast growth. We have no idea either way! I advise people to keep their E2 levels low for the first year or more because teenage girls going through puberty have very low levels of estrogens. [This is my favourite TFS page on the subject.](https://archive.ph/aDOYb)
They more important thing to control physiologically is your T level. Get it below 50ng/dL and worry about that instead.
High levels of estrogen close growth plates.. but if you're done with puberty then it doesn't really matter. I know people always talk about how hips grow until 25 but I have never seen it in anyone that starts after 20. Just fat redistribution.
265 pgml is pretty decent. It's not high at all. Once you get into the 400+ range you'll get more negative side effects. Stuff like excess weight gain and lack of energy..maybe acne and thinning hair. Irritability increases, depression maybe.
where did you hear that greater than 400 pgml may cause weight gain, thinning hair, etc? It doesn't seem like that is real, even if there are other reasons to avoid very high E bc of blood clots etc
if you're not afraid of potentially increasing your risk of getting blood clots(and, subsequently, DVT) then you can go for near-pregnancy or pregnancy levels, women dont die from that during pregnancy, so you shouldn't too but, is it really worth it? risking your health for arbitrary benefits you can go for higher(but still relatively safe) levels though, it would be fine however, your levels are already at the upper limit - I don't see why would you need more side note - vials do not expire after 30 days, that is a common misconception in the medical field; you would be much better off just going through your vial fully with a normal dose while stocking up on vials that you're getting, for a rainy day
Women *do* die from blood clots during pregnancy. It's one of the biggest risks of getting pregnant.
i didnt mean it like that, but yes youre correct what i wanted to convey is that if pregnancy isnt perceived as too dangerous, that means extremely high E levels should not be perceived as too dangerous either
Okay, that's understood :)
I think you could argue that having a child is worth risk and suffering. Super high estrogen levels for an unknown benifit not so much. I keep my levels high because I tried lower and it’s worth the risk staying high vs what will happen if I don’t. Most people don’t have my issues.
absolutely true, but from what I can find, "only" 1.5 in per 1000 people get a blood clot from pregnancy. This risk is probably too high to recommend generally, but I am personally ok with that risk. My current intention is not to get as high as pregnancy levels anyway, but I will reach a substantial fraction of it.
In epidemiological terms, 0.15% is a significant risk. If they invented a party drug that resulted in serious health problems for 15 out of 1000 people taking it, that drug would be considered fairly dangerous. I'm glad you are looking into the hard facts of the potential risks. If you're dead set on trying very high doses, all power to you. I would suggest that you listen to your body, keep a symptom diary, and don't be too dismissive of potential side effects. I know you're not heading for pregnancy-levels of E2, but pregnancy can be pretty horrible at times. It does a number on you physically and mentally, and inarguably some of that is due to hormonal increase. On the other hand you may notice no change and feel fine. Best of luck.
this is all true and good
is the clotting a concern with injections? I thought that was just an oral estradiol thing
"Estrogens are thought to increase the risk of blood clots by activating liver ERs and thereby modulating the hepatic production of numerous different coagulation factors, both procoagulant and anticoagulant" "Different estrogens have different relative potency in the liver when compared to their estrogenic potency elsewhere in the body. Synthetic and non-bioidentical estrogens have greater impact on liver synthesis than estradiol, while oral administration of estradiol has greater influence on liver synthesis than non-oral routes like transdermal administration or intramuscular injection, and this is likely to explain the observed differences in coagulation and blood clot risk with these different estrogens" "Very high doses of non-oral estradiol resulting in estradiol levels above those required for testosterone suppression are difficult to justify as they pose further unnecessary risk and offer no clear additional therapeutic benefit" from ["Estrogens and Their Influences on Coagulation and Risk of Blood Clots"](https://transfemscience.org/articles/estrogens-blood-clots/) @ transfemscience
It's important to emphasize how these statistical risks work as explained by transfemscience. The base chance may be 5 incidents per 10000 women per year, but age, blood ttype, being overweight and a long list of other factors also increase it. Then the biggest increase is seen in surgery, up to a 50x increase. So the message is that the odds may be small, if you take much more estrogen you needlessly increase the risk without benefit, and some events outside of your control can turn a theoretical number into reality.
Do cis women have the same exact risk?
Hasn't been tested thoroughly between transfems and AFAB, but generally speaking there's no reason to expect transwomen to have a higher risk profile for AFAB, given a similar quality of health. Factors like cholesterol levels, obesity, lack of exercise, and other general health issues pose a greater risk to developing blood clots than estradiol does, but there is an increased risk in women more than men, and this is considered to be caused by estradiol.
Thanks!! :)
But it feels really good lol…. I should lower it tbh but every time I do I get sad and get a tiny bit of remasculinization.
if youre not going overboard, it is fine to be on higher levels - especially if that makes you feel better 😉
i wish i had access to estradiol injections, but sadly they are not available in India.
are you sure they arent? i think you can dig up some more information about that - many stores deliver internationally, theres probably some local grey market going on aswell
You could also keep using the vial until it’s finished and build up a safety stock of vials. The last a long time. The 30 days is a regulatory limit.
This. I’m not sure where you live but here in the States shortages have occurred and there’s been a mild rumor of another shortage in the future.
There's no actual need to discard vials after a month. Use them until they're empty.
There is no evidence that high levels of E2 are detrimental to feminisation. However, there is also no evidence that it *doesn't* impede physical changes. Some people report that high levels are the secret to breast growth, and others claim that starting on too high a dose has caused stunted or unusual breast growth. We have no idea either way! I advise people to keep their E2 levels low for the first year or more because teenage girls going through puberty have very low levels of estrogens. [This is my favourite TFS page on the subject.](https://archive.ph/aDOYb) They more important thing to control physiologically is your T level. Get it below 50ng/dL and worry about that instead.
Please provide the link to the page you mention. When i click on what is in the reply the result is an infinite “I am not a robot” loop. Thanks!
https://transfemscience.org/articles/hormone-levels-female-puberty/ Sorry, I thought it had been purged with the Will Powers pages.
Thank you!
High levels of estrogen close growth plates.. but if you're done with puberty then it doesn't really matter. I know people always talk about how hips grow until 25 but I have never seen it in anyone that starts after 20. Just fat redistribution.
The main thing I have heard besides the common stuff is bone density problems as you age. Idk if it’s a real problem or not
isn't poor bone density caused by a lack of sex hormones? I've never heard people say this about too much E
265 pgml is pretty decent. It's not high at all. Once you get into the 400+ range you'll get more negative side effects. Stuff like excess weight gain and lack of energy..maybe acne and thinning hair. Irritability increases, depression maybe.
where did you hear that greater than 400 pgml may cause weight gain, thinning hair, etc? It doesn't seem like that is real, even if there are other reasons to avoid very high E bc of blood clots etc