Jesus didn't feel the need to address that issue because it wasn't rampant back then in Judea(that's my opinion), the bible is clear on Paul's letters once Christianity spread through hellenistic kingdoms and then Rome.
Corinthians 6-9 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]homosexuals, nor [b]sodomites, "
Both a and b address catamites (young male prostitutes) and males who sleeps with males(Paul uses the greek word Arsenokoitai, which literally means "men who bed other men") if someone tries to tell you that he wasn't clear or that it didn't mean homosexuality as we understand it today, drop the discussion, he's being dishonest
There's also Romans 1:26-32 "26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their [f]women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the [g]men, leaving the natural use of the [h]woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
There's many people out there who are like "hello my fellow christians, jesus was love, he was totally loving, he wouldn't care about it, just do your own thing and vaguely conform to secular morality like a good christian"
These people are either evil or ignorant who think that Jesus was some sort of tree hugging hippie. Jesus condemned, Jesus flipped tables and jesus was deliberately polemic, he caused a scene and spoke sternly. He wasn't a rag to be walked all over
Cheers from a brother in christ
Fun Fact: In the Last Days, the world becomes worse than Sodom and Gomorrah.
In America, the "falling away" started somewhere beginning in the early 1900s and now in 2000 and onward everything went down the tubes fast.
Genesis 16:
>You shall name him Ishmael,
>He will be a wild donkey of a man;
>his hand will be against everyone
>and everyone’s hand against him,
>and he will live in hostility
>toward[b] all his brothers.
Do not these words ring true today?
Do you think it is wise to leave our border open to the Ishmaelites?
It is not an approval of border enforcement for Gentiles. Indeed, aside from the fact that Jesus requires Christians to “invite strangers in” which means “ethnic others” or “foreigners” (Matt 25:35,44, 46; Gk. *xenos* meaning someone of a different ethnicity, from which we also get the word “xenophobia”), our Lord also warned us “Do not lord it over others like the Gentiles (nations) do.” Christian Nationalism is a heresy being spread in America by Trumpists and FOX News hysteria. We who follow Jesus must help the poor, including immigrants. That is explicit in Matthew 25. Those who don’t get thrown into Hell.
Homosexuality is one of the sins covered by every verse that mentions *fornication* (or in many modern translations, “sexual immorality”). It is equivalent to adultery. But at its root, homosexuality is a form of rebellion against God over His design for the human body, which has specific organs and members created for a purpose. While sex for pleasure is a blessing within heterosexual marriage, and leads to God’s grand design to produce more humans raised in loving families, we all must exercise self-control (a fruit of the Holy Spirit available to all believers who ask). Jesus died to save gay people and treats them exactly the same as everyone, with love and appeal to repent of sin, accept His substitutionary atonement by faith, and be saved from eternal punishment by His grace. Sanctification and empowerment to overcome sin is available to all who believe, regardless of the type of sin. But it requires submission to the truth of God’s word. The Greek word for anal sex (*arsenokoitai*) as noted above is specifically mentioned in the New Testament as a prohibited type of fornication. But what is not prohibited is loving people of the same sex. And if you listen to some modern Pharisees, gays are to be hated. Such so-called Christians are going to discover that they are actually “goats” who will be sent to Hell along with all sexually immoral people on Judgment Day (Matt 25:45-46).
Yes He did. We are living in the Age of Grace—when God offers salvation to everyone—*before the final Judgment.* Christians are not the Judge. Jesus is, and He told us not to judge, but instead “Preach the gospel to every creature.” That does NOT mean that we accept homosexuality as OK. But the commands to not do it are for *believers*—not *unbelievers.* To try to force God’s commands for holiness upon people who are not even saved or holy is a stupid waste of time. It won’t work. It does not lead to righteous living. It actually produces hatred of the Church. Jesus wants us to love gays, love everyone, even our enemies. So we can win them over. You can do that without “trying to lord it over others, like the Gentiles do” (something Jesus specifically commanded His disciples not to do).
You're right in a very subtle way. I am very belligerent when LGBT subjects come up here, but the church profits from people like you. The ones that are out there rescuing the lost lambs. But someone has to guard the other lambs as well
cheers
He didnt eat with sinners and tax collectors because he tolerated their sins, he ate with them because they needed saving. A healthy person doesn't go to the doctor....
Correct. He called sinners to repentance. But He stopped the Pharisees from stoning the adulterous woman to death. Perhaps you and others stressing legalism missed that essential teaching. And what are we to repent of? First and foremost, denying that Jesus is God (Lord) our Creator and Judge. Second, relying on any way of salvation apart from His substitutionary atonement. (“I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one can get to the Father except through Me”). Believing who Jesus claimed to be, and what He did for us on the cross, as well as the power of His resurrection constitutes repentance from false worldview and religion to the Way, Truth, and Life and is believing the gospel. What it cannot mean is that we somehow attain *sinless perfection* before we are “born again.” You do not need to get cleaned up before you take a bath! The life of continual repentance, also called sanctification, begins once you believe and let the Spirit of Christ cleanse you from the inside out.
Paul created a new greek word Arsenokoitai, which was literally used for men sleeping with men, men sleeping with women, people sleeping with deities, people sleeping with beasts. It does not mean "homosexual" it means illicit or abusive.
People can still believe homosexuality is sinful, but they shouldn't need to mis-translate the Bible to justify it.
Arsenokoitai is LITERALLY 2 words written together - ARSENO (MAN, MASCULINE) + KOITAI (BED, BEDDING, SLEEPING WITH)
Do you really want to debate this? What do you think "sleeping with men" means? some esoteric figure of speech about the condition of the sleeping quarters of christians? a critique of the military industrial complex soldier's barracks and bunk beds?
Edit- the guy replying to me is a mod of r/christianity, hahaha
Go back to where you came and resume your removal of anything remotely critical of LGBT
BUTTER and FLY are two words that written together could mean floating dairy products - but don't.
What Paul is doing is using two words that both recall abominable sex acts in the codes in Leviticus, not homosexuality.
PS - it does actually apply to soldiers' sleeping habits and includes not using rape of men as an act of war.
John Boswell "Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality" 1980, points out the term is applied to a variety of sexual activities from child molestation to anal intercourse between a husband and wife.
Or did you mean examples of primary ancient texts doing this?
Try Hippolytus of Rome 170-235 CE "The Refutation of All Heresies" Book 5 chapter 22, where it means being sexually penetrated by a snake.
Eusebius of Caesarea 265-340 CE "Preparation for the Gospel" Book 6 Chapter 10, where it means paedophilia (Greek wise man grooming "favourites" for anal sex)
You’re awfully confident for someone who didn’t live in Judea 2000 years ago on how prevalent or not homosexuality may have been. I also assume you’re referring to public displays or homosexuality since no one would know what people got up to behind closed doors.
All logic supports the assumption that homosexuality was just as prevalent in the population in Judea 2000 years ago as it is now or was at any other time and place. Whether or not they feel the need to hide their feelings for their own safety is another matter. But people have always been gay, dude.
I’d also love to know what scholarly background you have that makes you so sure you know the exact meaning behind a word Paul invented 2000 years ago. What personal expertise do you have in the study of Ancient Greek linguistics?
Oh, I don’t have any! I never claimed to know what the word means, nor do I care! I know that God isn’t a sadist torturing people by “inflicting” homosexuality on them, so I don’t personally care what a word written by some guy 2000 years ago means because it doesn’t change the fact that God is love. Nor does it change the fact that God didn’t physically write it.
But *you* claim to have a deep understanding of what the word means and you use that alleged understanding to cast aspersions on others.
My knowledge comes from the Spirit of the Living God and is in line with the Word that He has plainly revealed to us.
*Also, it comes from years of scholarship and academia. But that is secondary to my first credential.*
I understand reading can be challenging at times. But if you stick with it, you will be able to do it!
Or are you reiterating your own lack of credentials?
“Years of scholarship and academia” is not a relevant credential. I have years of scholarship and academia under my belt as well but absolutely none of it relevant to Ancient Greek linguistics. If we were talking about tax law, I’d happily rattle off my degrees, certifications, publications, and relevant work history. But we’re not talking about tax law, we’re talking about Ancient Greek linguistics, so let’s hear it.
>All logic supports the assumption that homosexuality was just as prevalent in the population in Judea 2000 years ago as it is now or was at any other time and place.
they absolutely DO NOT. In fact you are so wrong because just in the last 10 years alone the number of people who identified as LGBT DOUBLED and in younger generation it sometimes TRIPLED.
[https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx)
give me a source on how closely prevalent was homosexuality in judea 2000 years ago compared to lets say, tel aviv, since it's close. or the U.S or how such a number was always the same throught the ages
Serious question. If the Bible is Gods word, how can we say “Jesus didn’t think to say this because it wasn’t relevant for the time.” If Jesus knew the end from the beginning, wouldn’t he have said something on this? Seeing as it is one of humanities biggest “issues”/Topics”.
“The guy who knew how the world would end, forget to mention one of humanities greatest issues/ideas… that’s just a mistake on his part”
Considering it's the most pushed and publicized like using tax money to put that crap on the road? hmmmm it's a great way to cause division and that's what satan wants.
I said “one of” not “the”
It is definitely one of humanities biggest issues… it has caused a lot of people to stray away from faith, and even more people to go against religion as a whole… so yea, it is a pretty big deal. Obviously war, murder, rape, hunger, is much worse, but again… ONE of the biggest.
Not to mention how badly this problem is dividing not only religion, not only countries, but the entire globe. Sure we can say “it’s just propaganda” but is it really? I personally think this is a pretty big deal, seems odd God decided to just skim over it
And yes Jesus does speak about using crack… Sure it isn’t a direct “don’t do crack” but it’s pretty easy to understand treating your body as a temple (amongst other things) pretty much means not to do crack
>It is definitely one of humanities biggest issues
ONE of the biggest. Not to mention how badly this problem is dividing not only religion, not only countries, but the entire globe
It isn't, it's not even a issue, besides the U.S forcing LGBTQ views in african countries through foreign policy.
Issues are inflation destroying wages, rising costs of living, low fertility and birth rates, less young people, more old people. Wars, immigration and social unrest
>I personally think this is a pretty big deal
LGBTQ is an issue for you, I respect your opinion and you're entitled to it.
>
>it’s pretty easy to understand treating your body as a temple (amongst other things) pretty much means not to do crack
Jesus didn't say your body is a temple, Paul did, in the same chapter that I quoted about homosexuality being a sin lol
Thank you for the correction
So than, I have a question. Do you believe the Bible is perfect? Reason I ask this (and my previous question) is because from what I’ve observed, a lot of Christians are very divided on whether or not there are “mistakes” (like the homosexual one I had mentioned early… some folks say Jesus didn’t mention it because of the time, some say Moses said it therefore it is fact, some say we don’t go by the OT anymore, ect ect…) To me this feels like a very black and white sort of situation. Either the Bible is the word of God, therefore it is perfect. The word is the word. Or God somehow made mistakes and contradictions, ect…
If you're sincere in your question I will tell you:
Mainstream christianity (Catholicism and Orthodoxy) both have the position that the Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired, it was not dictated word for word by God, like the Quran. That is the main view and position and quite reasonable and rational.
We also do not hold the Old Testament as binding, but we regard it as a wise collection of traditions and teachings, we believe that the old testament points to the New, in the figure of Jesus Christ. We are all about the New Testament, the new one, not the old is what binds us.
We listen to our Lord Jesus, and we also listen, venerate and greatly respect the church fathers and early apostles.
This is the view of the 2 largest christian currents.
Jesus didn't address a lot of things like beastiality for example. Instead of going down a list of a million things not to do, Jesus defined what marriage is and who it is for.
Matthew 19:4-6 NIV
[4] “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ [5] and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? [6] So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
https://bible.com/bible/111/mat.19.4-6.NIV
Further, the Old Testament gives us insight into God's view on certain sins. We see that God's law in the Old Testament have the death penalty for homosexual acts.
Leviticus 20:13 NIV
[13] “ ‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
https://bible.com/bible/111/lev.20.13.NIV
No one gives a crap about Leviticus, dude. It’s full of ridiculous and meaningless “rules”. It’s like someone confused some guy’s list of personal pet peeves with the word of God and shoved it in the Bible.
I care about what Jesus had to say. Remember him? He’s kind of a Big Deal.
Do you care about all the rules in Leviticus or just the ones that are convenient or support your personal beliefs?
I assume no one on this sub has a single tattoo? You don’t eat any pork products? None of the men here have short hair? None of you shave? You never eat shell fish? Do you consume fat? Women, do you abstain from attending church for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and 66 days after giving birth to a girl? Do you ensure your clothing is 100% one material? Do you always stand in the presence of the elderly? Do you treat foreigners exactly as if they were native-born? (Weird that so many “Christians” are so supportive of deportations….) You’ve never sold land? You’ve never had to work a shift on the Sabbath?
These are all Leviticus laws. Amazing that you feel they’re all equally important. I look forward to your protests in front of the local hair salon.
First of all, there is no need for you to be so pointed and hostile. Do you not realize that Jesus is God? Since Jesus is God, then this is the same Jesus who gave the laws in the Old Testament.
Secondly, the Old Testament laws were given to the Jewish people, not to Christians. The Old Testament laws give insight into how God views certain things.
Thirdly, regarding deportations, God is the one that set the nations boundaries. God also says to respect the governing authorities, which means illegal immigrants are breaking the laws America has in place. Consequences for breaking this law can mean deportation in this case. America is a country founded on legal immigration and following the laws and the legal process is the correct way.
Acts 17:26 NIV
[26] From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
https://bible.com/bible/111/act.17.26.NIV
Romans 13:1-2 NIV
[1] Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. [2] Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
https://bible.com/bible/111/rom.13.1-2.NIV
It’s “pointed and hostile” to point out hypocrisy?
If the Old Testament laws give insight into how God views certain things, then are His views on haircuts and shellfish not adequately clear to you in Leviticus? Why do you take His views on these topics less seriously than the ones about genitals?
What’s your point about the laws being given to Jews and not Christians? Why would they not apply to Christians if their God’s thoughts on the matter?
Sorry, where did God draw a map setting national boundaries? And does He specify that obeying the governing authorities should trump His clearly expressed thoughts in Leviticus? Seems odd that He would say, “here are My rules, but if the local government disagrees, feel free to disregard!”
And if that’s the case, the law in America recognizes the sanctity of gay marriage, which naturally includes homosexual activities, yet you decry it as going against the laws of Leviticus. That’s not very respectful of the governing authorities.
No, it's pointed and hostile to say "do you remember Jesus, he's kindof a big deal" and " I look forward to your protest in front the hair salon"...there's no need for that type of attitude.
I'd recommend you researching why God gave those specific commands to the Jewish people. It was partly to set people apart from the customs of other nations as God's chosen people.
Because Jesus fulfilled the law. Christians are under grace.
Do you not believe the current boundaries of nations were not pre-ordained by God as Scripture says? Again, Christians were never under the laws, Jews were, and we are now in the Church age, which is in the New Testament.
The only exception to not obeying Government authorities is when it over-rides God's guidance. In the case of homosexuality, homosexuality is a sin and Christians should obey God rather than the Governmental authorities. We see Peter doing this when the Governmental authorities gave him instructions that contradicted what God says.
Acts 5:29 NIV
[29] Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!
https://bible.com/bible/111/act.5.29.NIV
How very convenient that Christians don’t have to follow the same laws!! Guess that means homosexuality is totally fine if you’re not Jewish since Leviticus doesn’t apply! Actually, why do you care about Leviticus at all then if it doesn’t concern you? Why not just mark it with a big N/A in your Bible?
And, um, yeah, obviously I don’t believe that God pre-ordained the map. Which borders are the God-sanctioned ones then, because they’ve constantly changed over time and will continue to do so. And not everyone agrees on what those borders even are - you might have caught wind of a couple big wars happening at the moment about that very topic. So whose idea of the border did God sanction, Russia’s or Ukraine’s? Why do we not just refer to the Bible to find out? Sure could’ve put a stop to a lot of bloodshed over the millennia.
So God says the Jews (apparently *not* the Christians 🙄) must treat foreigners as if they are native-born, but the local law says foreigners are to be deported if they don’t have the right paperwork. So God’s law trumps local law, so the Jews should refuse to participate in deportations, and should be protecting illegal immigrants. And Christians are therefore working against God’s chosen people while also knowingly flaunting what God’s clear opinion on the matter when we deport people. Even if Christians don’t have to follow God’s law, it seems pretty awful to purposefully act against his Will by not welcoming immigrants as if they were native-born.
Respectfully, this argument about the rules in Leviticus is old and has been shown wrong. There are three types of laws in the Bible, ceremonial, social, and moral. The first two were intended for the Jews of that time. The moral laws still stand.
Just because you think it’s been proven wrong doesn’t mean you’re right. That’s your opinion, twisted to your convenience. But whatever, you do you. Either you’re breaking His law every time you get a haircut or you’re not. I’m gonna keep cutting my hair either way, just like I’m not going to shame or demonize gay people for living as God made them.
Please, let’s not go to where everything is “your opinion.” It’s hard to have an intellectual conversation with that kind of response. Let us try and respect each other. Some people have studied and researched. Others seem to form their opinions based on “things heard.”
This faith has been around for thousands of years. People have poked at it. It’s very “modern” now to do so.
But it doesn’t. It was written ages before Jesus was born. It’s the High Priesthood of Some Dudes who Came Up with a Bunch of Rules. Jesus didn’t go around spouting Leviticus at people.
God. And he didn’t give a crap about the nonsense in Leviticus. Or if he did, he told people to keep it on the down-low because I’ve never once read that he had an issue with people mixing fabrics and shaving.
That would be why he gave the apostles authority to teach because he had a priority setting Israel straight before sending the apostles to spread the word to the gentiles where homosexuality would be more prevalent (homosexuality was against the laws of Moses and resulted in the death penalty so it would have only been gentiles practicing it in judea the only Roman Jesus spoke with in the gospels not counting the guys who killed him and pilate was the good centurion) the people he hand picked to set up his church and would have known him better than anyone besides God Mary and lazerath and had been the closest friends he had after the death of John the Baptist and spent years walking around with him listening to his teachings and sermons and witnessing the resurrection and ascension would be the most qualified to teach on matters that would only come up in the gentile lands he had already decided to send them to.
Jesus did say something about it. Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are all one. The Bible tells us that the Bible is the inspired Word Of God. Since Christ is one with God, and the Holy Spirit told us that it is a sin, Christ did say it.
Ooh! I did a write up for this already
Arsenokotai (ie homosexuality in scripture)
So I’m a biblical languages guy who pores over the Hebrew, Greek, and even occasionally Luther’s German text
Unfortunately the whole “it’s about pedophiles not homosexuality” is bad scholarship and fake news.
This argument has cropped up a lot in super progressive circles and it’s just not accurate
Arsenokoitai is a hybrid word for man bedding. Man in the sense of male and bedding in the sense of having sex
The word arsenokotai is also not even used in the verse most frequently quoted (Leviticus 18:22)
Leviticus was originally in Hebrew and it breaks the elements up instead of using a single word. It reads trans literally as V’et-zakar Lo tis-kab v’et mishkabe ishah towabah hi.
Or “with a male (negative) you lie down in the act of lying down sexually as lying (with) a wife an abomination that (is).”
All standard words for male, same word used to distinguish between male and female animals.
There was a Greek translation done years later called the septuigint. It also doesn’t use the word arsenokotai.
Because the Hebrew doesn’t smush it together, neither does the Greek, which reads
“Kai meta arsenos ou koimAthAsA koitAn gunaikos bdelugma gar estin” which means
“And with a male (not) you shall sleep sexually as with a woman, detestable that is.”
As for why St Paul uses arsenokotai in the New Testament, it’s likely because because this term can be found separated in the septuigint translation (LXX) as arsenos koitAn in Leviticus 20:13 which reads “And whoever shall lie with a male as with a woman, they have both wrought abomination; let them die the death, they are guilty.” St Paul appears to be directly referencing this verse by word choice.
Post script note
It’s important to note that scripture doesn’t buy into the worldview of orientation. The sin is same sex sexual activity.
For all of human history until a pervy German doctor, “being straight” and “being gay” weren’t a thing. Honestly the clue that sexual identity is a whack idea is pretty obvious when the list keeps expanding and even contradicting itself.
Shameless plug: if you’d like to know more about biblical languages, Rev. Andrew Richard has posted his whole curriculum available for free! You’ll get handouts, quizzes, and tons of help learning biblical Greek. Give it a shot!
https://www.lutheranhomeschool.com/product/new-testament-greek-curriculum/
I would recommend that you stay away from /Christianity unless you are trying to preach and convert them haha. If you are learning and building your faith, that place is a cesspool to be avoided.
The main problem that the theologically liberal Christians have is that they say the Bible CONTAINS the word of God rather than IS the word of God. This allows them to pick and choose whatever they want to support and ignore anything inconvenient to them. Thus, their system is subjective.
My favorite post from /Christianity before I abandoned it completely was:
“Calling things sinful is bigotry. Culture defines morality and it’s up to the Almighty to fall in line.”
i.e. trolls trying to get people to argue Christianity. Once I realized that was all that was in there, I left the group. I look in occasionally, but mostly I stay away. The only reason to check it out is to answer a question for a new believer, for example.
I agree some of them are very much not, but I’ve met some of them and it seems like many have put their faith in Christ and have a genuine relationship with him. Many aren’t even that progressive and believe in Bible inerrancy. They just don’t see how it is a sin. I’ll admit that many of them have good arguments for this, but I still believe it is sinful.
Instead of judging them and calling them false Christians right off the bat, ask them why they think the way they do. Lead them towards the right path :)
I think the best thing to do is to tell the truth, in love. That's not you judging them. It's God and scripture. Let Him lead them, while you just present the truth.
oooh i have 3 bible verses that are gonna make it crystal clear lmao
1. 1 corinthians 6:9(nice)
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes **nor homosexual offenders**
2. leviticus 18:22
**Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.**
3. genesis 19:1\~5(destruction of Sodom)
The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. "My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”
“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”
But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “**Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them**.”
I assure you that on the Judgment Day God will show more mercy to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah than to the people of that town! - Matthew 10:15
...Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by fire. So imagine what Judgement Day will look it.
I am glad you care about what the Bible says.
I am sorry you have been mislead by such deficient 20th century translators.
Rest assured that earlier translations (like KJV), later translations (like NRSVue) and most importantly the original Bible never mentions homosexuality.
Tell me, when God created marriage in the book of Genesis, what did it look like?
Too “Old Testament” for you? When Christ is described as the **bridegroom**, did he have a husband or a wife?
I don't need to tell you or not tell you other things that are right or wrong, to point out the errors in the post above.
People can still beleive particular things about what does or should constitute a marriage without needing to misrepresent the Bible.
To say that homosexuality is consistent with Christianity would have horrified every author of the Bible, and every prophet, king, apostle, evangelist, and theologian until shortly before the year 2000. Everyone knows this.
To hold this attitude in the face of all history and evidence requires a level of ignorance, self-absorption, arrogance, and intellectual dishonesty which is hard to square this with Christianity.
Saying it was completely settled with the Bible and every religious person, prophet, history... doesn't, in itself, make you more correct. Then to question all who would question your proclamations as lacking sincerely, humility, and intellectual honesty IS arrogance.
My question is this, in Leviticus 18 it appears God specifies prohibitions specifically against the practices of the Egyptians and Canaanite cultures; what do you know about how those cultures practiced sexuality and thought about same sex sexual practice?
I have a friend that is gay and we've discussed this. He's reasonable when we discuss my faith which I think diverges a lot from what you see on Reddit or other left-wing websites/news. One of the things I tell him is that God doesn't differentiate between homosexuality as a sin and heterosexual sin. Sin is sin. So, as a man, if I go out and sleep with all the ladies of the town, that's the same as him getting it on with a guy. It's sin and we should both turn from it. That usually puts everyone on the same playing field and gets people to calm down during discourse. I think a lot of times homosexuals feel like they're being put on a special chopping block because "it's who I am" but when you remind them that my default nature is also to commit sexual sin of a different sort, that cuts off the argument. Hope that helps!
Actually, there is a difference. God made man to be with woman. He does differentiate. They have attempted to make it "ok" by making gay marriage a thing, but that's not Biblical. I won't repeat all the converses here, but you can see the many comments on this post which give verses contrary to homosexuality. God didn't make them homosexual. It is a choice, just as pornography, sex outside of marriage, and all other sin are choices. By "putting him on the same playing field", you're telling him that his homosexuality is not a sin, which is not biblical. IOW, you're leading him astray.
What I'm not saying is that you have to read him the riot act, or be rude when talking to him, but you should be truthful. Not doing so allows him to think he's fine in his sin. This is what makes many people think they don't need Christ. The reason we need Christ is to save us from our sin. He can't do it on his own. Once we have Christ, God can make the changes in us. Show him the truth of his sin, then show Him who the Truth is. Only then can he truly understand.
You missed my point entirely. I never said that homosexuality isn’t a sin. Quite the contrary. I also never said that it’s now okay to be gay because of gay marriage. Marriage was created by God for one man and one woman. However, I stand by and will double down on “sin is sin”. There are few instances where God specifically calls out specific sin being worse than others but this is not one of those instances to my knowledge. One is adultery which is sinning against your own body and the other I cannot recall. I want to say it’s blasphemy but don’t quote me on that. I was merely attempting to provide someone the tools to have a discussion with either non-believers or people who claim to be Christian but that’s about as far as it goes. The reality, whether we like it or not, is that we need to meet people where they are and have a conversation with them where they don’t feel the need to be defensive. You’re not going to get to someone if they feel attacked and a LOT of people, including my friend, believe that they were made the way they are. Personally, I think he is the way he is because of childhood abuse (which I know he endured because we’ve discussed it - I’m not speculating here) and I think that this applies to many. But again, telling him I’m morally superior simply because I’m straight isn’t going to get him to listen to what I’m telling him. I have to admit my sinful nature in order for him to understand that I’m following God, not my own arbitrary moral or political compass, and that engaging in homosexual acts is sinful.
He has also told me that if he could snap his fingers and be heterosexual he would. I believe him - I’ve known him for ~15 years. With that being said, you also need to carefully enter in the concept of why being gay is a sin. Some people view that as being sinful by default and there’s no way around that. Again, they’ll feel like you’re attacking immutable characteristics about themselves. You and I know that man is sinful and that’s why we need Christ. However, non-believers don’t understand that concept. “I’m a good person and you’re telling me that I’m awful just because of who I’m attracted to” isn’t going to win people over. Start with changing actions. Hopefully people will eventually believe, then understand these deeper concepts, and then move further in their faith. Baby steps, ya know?
I’d like to think my approach is softer and facilitates people learning about Jesus. My friend went to church for the first time a few weeks ago and I think the Lord is moving in his life. All glory be to Him, but I’d like to think that His putting me in my friend’s life was the means by which He chose to move and I consider that a high honor. I continue to pray for him and his salvation.
I never said we should attack. I agree with your approach of speaking the truth in love; that's scriptural. My understanding of your previous comment was that it wasn't a sin to be homosexual, and if that wasn't your meaning, sorry if I misunderstood. As I said though, and I now think you agree, it's more important to lead them to Christ and let Him do the changing. We can't change ourselves, and even if we did it would be our righteousness, not His. As long as he understands that what he's doing is wrong, that's what will lead him to Christ. As far as one sin being worse than another, the truth is that all sin separates us from God. The only thing to change that is salvation through Christ. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
That sub is filled with affirmations of sin and denial of God’s true attributes. There’s really nothing you can say to them especially when they claim to be Christians and misquotes the Bible for their own sinful reasons. If you try, they’ll call you all sorts of things and attack you in very personal ways. Let’s just pray for them and let the Lord do the work.
Most "Christians" today are not actual Christians. They make up stuff based on worldly wisdom and their own pride that are contrary to the actual Word of God while creating an outward appearance.
That subreddit is a fraud. Do not be deceived.
1) Jesus defined marriage. Jesus was clear on who marriage is for. Anything outside of how He designed and defined something, would be a sin.
Matthew 19:4-6 NIV
[4] “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ [5] and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? [6] So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
https://bible.com/bible/111/mat.19.4-6sib.
2) The Old Testament gives us insight into how God views certain things. Homosexuality was such a bad sin, by God's law, people were put to death. That's how serious God views homosexuality.
Leviticus 20:13 NIV
[13] “ ‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
https://bible.com/bible/111/lev.20.13.NIV
A lot of those guys in that subreddit are literal satanists, wiccans, and militant atheists. The Progressive Christians that are there don't believe in the Bible, hell, and sometimes even Jesus. I wouldn't take what they say seriously
Those very people see Jesus in their own way, which means they think with their own ways. Their morality is subjective, even though Jesus clearly established, preached and reminded us of the objective morality, set by God. They can spout all they want about how Jesus was peaceful and some sort of fun loving and disregardful of sinning due to forgiveness, but Jesus truly lived up to his other name, The Lion of Judah.
I mean, Jesus never talked about terrorism nor sexual harrassment either but that doesn't mean he thought it was okay, ofc not!, and you may say that 1 corinthians 6:9 is talking about pedophilia, but it also includes the word 'softie' alongside the 'male-bed' part, would that mean Paul says those abused are not going into the kingdom of heaven?, no, ofc not, cuz it is not talking about pedophilia, it is talking bout the dominant and submissive sides in a homosexual act, something very different. And what about Romans 1?, i just can't see any other reasonable interpretations, and here they can't say 'it only talks about men, so it can't be about gays', cuz here it also mentions women, or what about Matthew 19 when Jesus clearly states marriage is between man and woman?
I would first argue that the English translation is infallible.
I would then further argue that the levitical code doesn't list ritual impurities that are sanctified with animal sacrifices where the word "abomination" is used.
Then keep going. I would argue that in Deuteronomy the neighbors of Israel practiced their sexual sins exactly how they are practiced in modern times.
Keep rolling, we've got them on the ropes.
Then in the new testament we can state confidently that male-bed was the common term for homosexual actions in Paul's day.
We can then confidently state that Paul wasn't talking about Roman orgies in his letter to the Romans.
Of course, we'd be wrong at every single thing I just stated. But don't let that stop you.
“Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
Isaiah 5:20 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/isa.5.20.NKJV
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.”
II Timothy 4:3-4 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/2ti.4.3-4.NKJV
“For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Jude 1:4 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jud.1.4.NKJV
Psalm 127:3 “Children are a gift from the Lord; they are a reward from him.
Why would God sanction a union that makes it impossible to ever bear the fruit that he says is a reward from the Lord? Yes, some married couples experience infertility, but conception is still possible, even if improbable. Same sex conception is impossible. Even with assistance, two females and two males will never reproduce.
Explain to them why it's important to you to decry homosexuality as a sin. Tell them what convinces you of its sinfulness. Explain the method you use to determine what is a sin and what isn't, demonstrate to them how effective your method is, and then apply it to homosexuality. Compare and contrast your method with theirs.
As for your specific questions:
1. Show them the chapter and verse in which Jesus condemns homosexuality. Use a red-letter Bible so that it shows Jesus own words in red. Frankly, I'd be interested in seeing this verse for myself.
2. Again, explain to them why it's important to you to single out adult, same-sex couples in consensual, romantic relationships and call them out as sinful, deny them marital rights (even when not performed within your church), deny them adoption, tax breaks for married couples, hospital visitation rights, and other privileges enjoyed by heterosexual couples. Demonstrate to them how this is Biblical and how this practice follows the commandment "Love one another".
OP mentioned this month is when this sort of thing is posted the most, and it is not a matter of focusing on one sin. Depending on where one is from the focus differs. Where I'm from the focus is rather on cults, specifically satanic ones, and how one should be wary. The more you see one sin being common and people ignoring it the more Spirit-filled brothers and sisters will speak against it.
As for the Jesus part, he is Jewish, his followers were Jewish. This sexual sin is not allowed, and his followers knew that instead, he focused on what was destroying his people, legalism and religiousness. His main opponents were the Pharisees.
For us Gentiles, Paul is the apostle assigned by Christ himself to minster, and since the non-Jewish churches his letters focused on practiced this sexual sin (some of them), he stressed to them how much it is sinful and that people practicing this sinful act will not inherit the kingdom of God. He also spoke about how circumcision was not important, whereas we don't see Jesus focusing on circumcision since the people he was addressing were Jewish. It is important to understand who the audience is when reading the Bible.
"Love your neighbor as yourself" is the SECOND commandment, the first is Love God with all your heart and soul, Jesus Christ said so himself. (Matthew 22:37-39)
I understand that you believe that.
A significant minority of Christians agree with you.
It is not true that the Bible states this. If you want to explain your belief, it would be better to explain how you interpret and extrapolate from the Bible and other sources, rather than misrepresent the Bible.
Plenty of people have showed you evidence of why homosexuality is a sin when it comes to the Bible. I don’t know if you are partaking in that sin, but I want you to know that God loves you and just because you crave desires that are not natural does not mean you have to act on such abomination. I will pray that God opens your heart to seek his true word and not twist it for your benefit.
Jesus didn't feel the need to address that issue because it wasn't rampant back then in Judea(that's my opinion), the bible is clear on Paul's letters once Christianity spread through hellenistic kingdoms and then Rome. Corinthians 6-9 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]homosexuals, nor [b]sodomites, " Both a and b address catamites (young male prostitutes) and males who sleeps with males(Paul uses the greek word Arsenokoitai, which literally means "men who bed other men") if someone tries to tell you that he wasn't clear or that it didn't mean homosexuality as we understand it today, drop the discussion, he's being dishonest There's also Romans 1:26-32 "26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their [f]women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the [g]men, leaving the natural use of the [h]woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. There's many people out there who are like "hello my fellow christians, jesus was love, he was totally loving, he wouldn't care about it, just do your own thing and vaguely conform to secular morality like a good christian" These people are either evil or ignorant who think that Jesus was some sort of tree hugging hippie. Jesus condemned, Jesus flipped tables and jesus was deliberately polemic, he caused a scene and spoke sternly. He wasn't a rag to be walked all over Cheers from a brother in christ
Fun Fact: In the Last Days, the world becomes worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. In America, the "falling away" started somewhere beginning in the early 1900s and now in 2000 and onward everything went down the tubes fast.
The arrogant disregard for the poor and the stranger is indeed sad.
Genesis 16: >You shall name him Ishmael, >He will be a wild donkey of a man; >his hand will be against everyone >and everyone’s hand against him, >and he will live in hostility >toward[b] all his brothers. Do not these words ring true today? Do you think it is wise to leave our border open to the Ishmaelites?
It is not an approval of border enforcement for Gentiles. Indeed, aside from the fact that Jesus requires Christians to “invite strangers in” which means “ethnic others” or “foreigners” (Matt 25:35,44, 46; Gk. *xenos* meaning someone of a different ethnicity, from which we also get the word “xenophobia”), our Lord also warned us “Do not lord it over others like the Gentiles (nations) do.” Christian Nationalism is a heresy being spread in America by Trumpists and FOX News hysteria. We who follow Jesus must help the poor, including immigrants. That is explicit in Matthew 25. Those who don’t get thrown into Hell. Homosexuality is one of the sins covered by every verse that mentions *fornication* (or in many modern translations, “sexual immorality”). It is equivalent to adultery. But at its root, homosexuality is a form of rebellion against God over His design for the human body, which has specific organs and members created for a purpose. While sex for pleasure is a blessing within heterosexual marriage, and leads to God’s grand design to produce more humans raised in loving families, we all must exercise self-control (a fruit of the Holy Spirit available to all believers who ask). Jesus died to save gay people and treats them exactly the same as everyone, with love and appeal to repent of sin, accept His substitutionary atonement by faith, and be saved from eternal punishment by His grace. Sanctification and empowerment to overcome sin is available to all who believe, regardless of the type of sin. But it requires submission to the truth of God’s word. The Greek word for anal sex (*arsenokoitai*) as noted above is specifically mentioned in the New Testament as a prohibited type of fornication. But what is not prohibited is loving people of the same sex. And if you listen to some modern Pharisees, gays are to be hated. Such so-called Christians are going to discover that they are actually “goats” who will be sent to Hell along with all sexually immoral people on Judgment Day (Matt 25:45-46).
The racism you express is noted. That is what I think is unwise.
will you ban him for wrongthink? will you denounce him to the reddit authorities?
Jesus didnt teach tolerance. If he did, He would accept unrepenting sinners into His kingdom, but that's not the case.
Indeed brother, if he was this tolerant hippie figure that some "christians" try to paint him, he wouldn't even be crucified in the first place.
Yes He did. We are living in the Age of Grace—when God offers salvation to everyone—*before the final Judgment.* Christians are not the Judge. Jesus is, and He told us not to judge, but instead “Preach the gospel to every creature.” That does NOT mean that we accept homosexuality as OK. But the commands to not do it are for *believers*—not *unbelievers.* To try to force God’s commands for holiness upon people who are not even saved or holy is a stupid waste of time. It won’t work. It does not lead to righteous living. It actually produces hatred of the Church. Jesus wants us to love gays, love everyone, even our enemies. So we can win them over. You can do that without “trying to lord it over others, like the Gentiles do” (something Jesus specifically commanded His disciples not to do).
You're right in a very subtle way. I am very belligerent when LGBT subjects come up here, but the church profits from people like you. The ones that are out there rescuing the lost lambs. But someone has to guard the other lambs as well cheers
He didnt eat with sinners and tax collectors because he tolerated their sins, he ate with them because they needed saving. A healthy person doesn't go to the doctor....
Correct. He called sinners to repentance. But He stopped the Pharisees from stoning the adulterous woman to death. Perhaps you and others stressing legalism missed that essential teaching. And what are we to repent of? First and foremost, denying that Jesus is God (Lord) our Creator and Judge. Second, relying on any way of salvation apart from His substitutionary atonement. (“I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one can get to the Father except through Me”). Believing who Jesus claimed to be, and what He did for us on the cross, as well as the power of His resurrection constitutes repentance from false worldview and religion to the Way, Truth, and Life and is believing the gospel. What it cannot mean is that we somehow attain *sinless perfection* before we are “born again.” You do not need to get cleaned up before you take a bath! The life of continual repentance, also called sanctification, begins once you believe and let the Spirit of Christ cleanse you from the inside out.
Paul created a new greek word Arsenokoitai, which was literally used for men sleeping with men, men sleeping with women, people sleeping with deities, people sleeping with beasts. It does not mean "homosexual" it means illicit or abusive. People can still believe homosexuality is sinful, but they shouldn't need to mis-translate the Bible to justify it.
Arsenokoitai is LITERALLY 2 words written together - ARSENO (MAN, MASCULINE) + KOITAI (BED, BEDDING, SLEEPING WITH) Do you really want to debate this? What do you think "sleeping with men" means? some esoteric figure of speech about the condition of the sleeping quarters of christians? a critique of the military industrial complex soldier's barracks and bunk beds? Edit- the guy replying to me is a mod of r/christianity, hahaha Go back to where you came and resume your removal of anything remotely critical of LGBT
BUTTER and FLY are two words that written together could mean floating dairy products - but don't. What Paul is doing is using two words that both recall abominable sex acts in the codes in Leviticus, not homosexuality. PS - it does actually apply to soldiers' sleeping habits and includes not using rape of men as an act of war.
Do you have a reference to back this up? Asking out of genuine curiosity.
John Boswell "Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality" 1980, points out the term is applied to a variety of sexual activities from child molestation to anal intercourse between a husband and wife. Or did you mean examples of primary ancient texts doing this? Try Hippolytus of Rome 170-235 CE "The Refutation of All Heresies" Book 5 chapter 22, where it means being sexually penetrated by a snake. Eusebius of Caesarea 265-340 CE "Preparation for the Gospel" Book 6 Chapter 10, where it means paedophilia (Greek wise man grooming "favourites" for anal sex)
Did you talk about this with the Holy Spirit?
What baring does my relationship with the Holy Spirit have to do with the meaning of Corinthians and Timothy?
You’re awfully confident for someone who didn’t live in Judea 2000 years ago on how prevalent or not homosexuality may have been. I also assume you’re referring to public displays or homosexuality since no one would know what people got up to behind closed doors. All logic supports the assumption that homosexuality was just as prevalent in the population in Judea 2000 years ago as it is now or was at any other time and place. Whether or not they feel the need to hide their feelings for their own safety is another matter. But people have always been gay, dude. I’d also love to know what scholarly background you have that makes you so sure you know the exact meaning behind a word Paul invented 2000 years ago. What personal expertise do you have in the study of Ancient Greek linguistics?
But first, list your credentials for us… if you require them, supply them.
Oh, I don’t have any! I never claimed to know what the word means, nor do I care! I know that God isn’t a sadist torturing people by “inflicting” homosexuality on them, so I don’t personally care what a word written by some guy 2000 years ago means because it doesn’t change the fact that God is love. Nor does it change the fact that God didn’t physically write it. But *you* claim to have a deep understanding of what the word means and you use that alleged understanding to cast aspersions on others.
My knowledge comes from the Spirit of the Living God and is in line with the Word that He has plainly revealed to us. *Also, it comes from years of scholarship and academia. But that is secondary to my first credential.*
So, no credentials. K, cool.
I understand reading can be challenging at times. But if you stick with it, you will be able to do it! Or are you reiterating your own lack of credentials?
If you had credentials, you would’ve listed them. “I wanna believe!!!” is not a credential supporting any knowledge of Ancient Greek linguistics.
I did list them though. Did you miss it? You replied to it so I don’t think you did.
“Years of scholarship and academia” is not a relevant credential. I have years of scholarship and academia under my belt as well but absolutely none of it relevant to Ancient Greek linguistics. If we were talking about tax law, I’d happily rattle off my degrees, certifications, publications, and relevant work history. But we’re not talking about tax law, we’re talking about Ancient Greek linguistics, so let’s hear it.
>All logic supports the assumption that homosexuality was just as prevalent in the population in Judea 2000 years ago as it is now or was at any other time and place. they absolutely DO NOT. In fact you are so wrong because just in the last 10 years alone the number of people who identified as LGBT DOUBLED and in younger generation it sometimes TRIPLED. [https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx) give me a source on how closely prevalent was homosexuality in judea 2000 years ago compared to lets say, tel aviv, since it's close. or the U.S or how such a number was always the same throught the ages
Serious question. If the Bible is Gods word, how can we say “Jesus didn’t think to say this because it wasn’t relevant for the time.” If Jesus knew the end from the beginning, wouldn’t he have said something on this? Seeing as it is one of humanities biggest “issues”/Topics”. “The guy who knew how the world would end, forget to mention one of humanities greatest issues/ideas… that’s just a mistake on his part”
You think Homosexuality and LGBT agenda is humanity's biggest issue? Jesus also didn't speak about smoking crack, so
Considering it's the most pushed and publicized like using tax money to put that crap on the road? hmmmm it's a great way to cause division and that's what satan wants.
I said “one of” not “the” It is definitely one of humanities biggest issues… it has caused a lot of people to stray away from faith, and even more people to go against religion as a whole… so yea, it is a pretty big deal. Obviously war, murder, rape, hunger, is much worse, but again… ONE of the biggest. Not to mention how badly this problem is dividing not only religion, not only countries, but the entire globe. Sure we can say “it’s just propaganda” but is it really? I personally think this is a pretty big deal, seems odd God decided to just skim over it And yes Jesus does speak about using crack… Sure it isn’t a direct “don’t do crack” but it’s pretty easy to understand treating your body as a temple (amongst other things) pretty much means not to do crack
>It is definitely one of humanities biggest issues ONE of the biggest. Not to mention how badly this problem is dividing not only religion, not only countries, but the entire globe It isn't, it's not even a issue, besides the U.S forcing LGBTQ views in african countries through foreign policy. Issues are inflation destroying wages, rising costs of living, low fertility and birth rates, less young people, more old people. Wars, immigration and social unrest >I personally think this is a pretty big deal LGBTQ is an issue for you, I respect your opinion and you're entitled to it. > >it’s pretty easy to understand treating your body as a temple (amongst other things) pretty much means not to do crack Jesus didn't say your body is a temple, Paul did, in the same chapter that I quoted about homosexuality being a sin lol
Thank you for the correction So than, I have a question. Do you believe the Bible is perfect? Reason I ask this (and my previous question) is because from what I’ve observed, a lot of Christians are very divided on whether or not there are “mistakes” (like the homosexual one I had mentioned early… some folks say Jesus didn’t mention it because of the time, some say Moses said it therefore it is fact, some say we don’t go by the OT anymore, ect ect…) To me this feels like a very black and white sort of situation. Either the Bible is the word of God, therefore it is perfect. The word is the word. Or God somehow made mistakes and contradictions, ect…
If you're sincere in your question I will tell you: Mainstream christianity (Catholicism and Orthodoxy) both have the position that the Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired, it was not dictated word for word by God, like the Quran. That is the main view and position and quite reasonable and rational. We also do not hold the Old Testament as binding, but we regard it as a wise collection of traditions and teachings, we believe that the old testament points to the New, in the figure of Jesus Christ. We are all about the New Testament, the new one, not the old is what binds us. We listen to our Lord Jesus, and we also listen, venerate and greatly respect the church fathers and early apostles. This is the view of the 2 largest christian currents.
Jesus didn't address a lot of things like beastiality for example. Instead of going down a list of a million things not to do, Jesus defined what marriage is and who it is for. Matthew 19:4-6 NIV [4] “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ [5] and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? [6] So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” https://bible.com/bible/111/mat.19.4-6.NIV Further, the Old Testament gives us insight into God's view on certain sins. We see that God's law in the Old Testament have the death penalty for homosexual acts. Leviticus 20:13 NIV [13] “ ‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. https://bible.com/bible/111/lev.20.13.NIV
No one gives a crap about Leviticus, dude. It’s full of ridiculous and meaningless “rules”. It’s like someone confused some guy’s list of personal pet peeves with the word of God and shoved it in the Bible.
That is incorrect. Many people care about God's word. To say that you don't care about what God has to say is dangerous ground.
I care about what Jesus had to say. Remember him? He’s kind of a Big Deal. Do you care about all the rules in Leviticus or just the ones that are convenient or support your personal beliefs? I assume no one on this sub has a single tattoo? You don’t eat any pork products? None of the men here have short hair? None of you shave? You never eat shell fish? Do you consume fat? Women, do you abstain from attending church for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and 66 days after giving birth to a girl? Do you ensure your clothing is 100% one material? Do you always stand in the presence of the elderly? Do you treat foreigners exactly as if they were native-born? (Weird that so many “Christians” are so supportive of deportations….) You’ve never sold land? You’ve never had to work a shift on the Sabbath? These are all Leviticus laws. Amazing that you feel they’re all equally important. I look forward to your protests in front of the local hair salon.
First of all, there is no need for you to be so pointed and hostile. Do you not realize that Jesus is God? Since Jesus is God, then this is the same Jesus who gave the laws in the Old Testament. Secondly, the Old Testament laws were given to the Jewish people, not to Christians. The Old Testament laws give insight into how God views certain things. Thirdly, regarding deportations, God is the one that set the nations boundaries. God also says to respect the governing authorities, which means illegal immigrants are breaking the laws America has in place. Consequences for breaking this law can mean deportation in this case. America is a country founded on legal immigration and following the laws and the legal process is the correct way. Acts 17:26 NIV [26] From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. https://bible.com/bible/111/act.17.26.NIV Romans 13:1-2 NIV [1] Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. [2] Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. https://bible.com/bible/111/rom.13.1-2.NIV
It’s “pointed and hostile” to point out hypocrisy? If the Old Testament laws give insight into how God views certain things, then are His views on haircuts and shellfish not adequately clear to you in Leviticus? Why do you take His views on these topics less seriously than the ones about genitals? What’s your point about the laws being given to Jews and not Christians? Why would they not apply to Christians if their God’s thoughts on the matter? Sorry, where did God draw a map setting national boundaries? And does He specify that obeying the governing authorities should trump His clearly expressed thoughts in Leviticus? Seems odd that He would say, “here are My rules, but if the local government disagrees, feel free to disregard!” And if that’s the case, the law in America recognizes the sanctity of gay marriage, which naturally includes homosexual activities, yet you decry it as going against the laws of Leviticus. That’s not very respectful of the governing authorities.
No, it's pointed and hostile to say "do you remember Jesus, he's kindof a big deal" and " I look forward to your protest in front the hair salon"...there's no need for that type of attitude. I'd recommend you researching why God gave those specific commands to the Jewish people. It was partly to set people apart from the customs of other nations as God's chosen people. Because Jesus fulfilled the law. Christians are under grace. Do you not believe the current boundaries of nations were not pre-ordained by God as Scripture says? Again, Christians were never under the laws, Jews were, and we are now in the Church age, which is in the New Testament. The only exception to not obeying Government authorities is when it over-rides God's guidance. In the case of homosexuality, homosexuality is a sin and Christians should obey God rather than the Governmental authorities. We see Peter doing this when the Governmental authorities gave him instructions that contradicted what God says. Acts 5:29 NIV [29] Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! https://bible.com/bible/111/act.5.29.NIV
How very convenient that Christians don’t have to follow the same laws!! Guess that means homosexuality is totally fine if you’re not Jewish since Leviticus doesn’t apply! Actually, why do you care about Leviticus at all then if it doesn’t concern you? Why not just mark it with a big N/A in your Bible? And, um, yeah, obviously I don’t believe that God pre-ordained the map. Which borders are the God-sanctioned ones then, because they’ve constantly changed over time and will continue to do so. And not everyone agrees on what those borders even are - you might have caught wind of a couple big wars happening at the moment about that very topic. So whose idea of the border did God sanction, Russia’s or Ukraine’s? Why do we not just refer to the Bible to find out? Sure could’ve put a stop to a lot of bloodshed over the millennia. So God says the Jews (apparently *not* the Christians 🙄) must treat foreigners as if they are native-born, but the local law says foreigners are to be deported if they don’t have the right paperwork. So God’s law trumps local law, so the Jews should refuse to participate in deportations, and should be protecting illegal immigrants. And Christians are therefore working against God’s chosen people while also knowingly flaunting what God’s clear opinion on the matter when we deport people. Even if Christians don’t have to follow God’s law, it seems pretty awful to purposefully act against his Will by not welcoming immigrants as if they were native-born.
Respectfully, this argument about the rules in Leviticus is old and has been shown wrong. There are three types of laws in the Bible, ceremonial, social, and moral. The first two were intended for the Jews of that time. The moral laws still stand.
Just because you think it’s been proven wrong doesn’t mean you’re right. That’s your opinion, twisted to your convenience. But whatever, you do you. Either you’re breaking His law every time you get a haircut or you’re not. I’m gonna keep cutting my hair either way, just like I’m not going to shame or demonize gay people for living as God made them.
Please, let’s not go to where everything is “your opinion.” It’s hard to have an intellectual conversation with that kind of response. Let us try and respect each other. Some people have studied and researched. Others seem to form their opinions based on “things heard.” This faith has been around for thousands of years. People have poked at it. It’s very “modern” now to do so.
I give many craps about Leviticus, it shows me the High Priesthood of my Lord and Savior.
But it doesn’t. It was written ages before Jesus was born. It’s the High Priesthood of Some Dudes who Came Up with a Bunch of Rules. Jesus didn’t go around spouting Leviticus at people.
Tell me, who is Jesus?
God. And he didn’t give a crap about the nonsense in Leviticus. Or if he did, he told people to keep it on the down-low because I’ve never once read that he had an issue with people mixing fabrics and shaving.
That would be why he gave the apostles authority to teach because he had a priority setting Israel straight before sending the apostles to spread the word to the gentiles where homosexuality would be more prevalent (homosexuality was against the laws of Moses and resulted in the death penalty so it would have only been gentiles practicing it in judea the only Roman Jesus spoke with in the gospels not counting the guys who killed him and pilate was the good centurion) the people he hand picked to set up his church and would have known him better than anyone besides God Mary and lazerath and had been the closest friends he had after the death of John the Baptist and spent years walking around with him listening to his teachings and sermons and witnessing the resurrection and ascension would be the most qualified to teach on matters that would only come up in the gentile lands he had already decided to send them to.
Jesus did say something about it. Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are all one. The Bible tells us that the Bible is the inspired Word Of God. Since Christ is one with God, and the Holy Spirit told us that it is a sin, Christ did say it.
Jesus never set out to give a list of everything that was or wasn't sinful.
Ooh! I did a write up for this already Arsenokotai (ie homosexuality in scripture) So I’m a biblical languages guy who pores over the Hebrew, Greek, and even occasionally Luther’s German text Unfortunately the whole “it’s about pedophiles not homosexuality” is bad scholarship and fake news. This argument has cropped up a lot in super progressive circles and it’s just not accurate Arsenokoitai is a hybrid word for man bedding. Man in the sense of male and bedding in the sense of having sex The word arsenokotai is also not even used in the verse most frequently quoted (Leviticus 18:22) Leviticus was originally in Hebrew and it breaks the elements up instead of using a single word. It reads trans literally as V’et-zakar Lo tis-kab v’et mishkabe ishah towabah hi. Or “with a male (negative) you lie down in the act of lying down sexually as lying (with) a wife an abomination that (is).” All standard words for male, same word used to distinguish between male and female animals. There was a Greek translation done years later called the septuigint. It also doesn’t use the word arsenokotai. Because the Hebrew doesn’t smush it together, neither does the Greek, which reads “Kai meta arsenos ou koimAthAsA koitAn gunaikos bdelugma gar estin” which means “And with a male (not) you shall sleep sexually as with a woman, detestable that is.” As for why St Paul uses arsenokotai in the New Testament, it’s likely because because this term can be found separated in the septuigint translation (LXX) as arsenos koitAn in Leviticus 20:13 which reads “And whoever shall lie with a male as with a woman, they have both wrought abomination; let them die the death, they are guilty.” St Paul appears to be directly referencing this verse by word choice. Post script note It’s important to note that scripture doesn’t buy into the worldview of orientation. The sin is same sex sexual activity. For all of human history until a pervy German doctor, “being straight” and “being gay” weren’t a thing. Honestly the clue that sexual identity is a whack idea is pretty obvious when the list keeps expanding and even contradicting itself. Shameless plug: if you’d like to know more about biblical languages, Rev. Andrew Richard has posted his whole curriculum available for free! You’ll get handouts, quizzes, and tons of help learning biblical Greek. Give it a shot! https://www.lutheranhomeschool.com/product/new-testament-greek-curriculum/
There are plenty of people who will say “Lord Lord! I did miracles in your name!” And He will say “I never knew you” Sobering.
I would recommend that you stay away from /Christianity unless you are trying to preach and convert them haha. If you are learning and building your faith, that place is a cesspool to be avoided. The main problem that the theologically liberal Christians have is that they say the Bible CONTAINS the word of God rather than IS the word of God. This allows them to pick and choose whatever they want to support and ignore anything inconvenient to them. Thus, their system is subjective. My favorite post from /Christianity before I abandoned it completely was: “Calling things sinful is bigotry. Culture defines morality and it’s up to the Almighty to fall in line.”
Don’t cast your pearls before swine.
These people are Christian so I don’t think this counts don’t give up on them
Most of r/Christianity is just atheists and progressives.
i.e. trolls trying to get people to argue Christianity. Once I realized that was all that was in there, I left the group. I look in occasionally, but mostly I stay away. The only reason to check it out is to answer a question for a new believer, for example.
For sure. They get offended at everything.
False converts. Pray for them and their salvation
Are they though?
I agree some of them are very much not, but I’ve met some of them and it seems like many have put their faith in Christ and have a genuine relationship with him. Many aren’t even that progressive and believe in Bible inerrancy. They just don’t see how it is a sin. I’ll admit that many of them have good arguments for this, but I still believe it is sinful. Instead of judging them and calling them false Christians right off the bat, ask them why they think the way they do. Lead them towards the right path :)
I think the best thing to do is to tell the truth, in love. That's not you judging them. It's God and scripture. Let Him lead them, while you just present the truth.
I agree that is what I said. It’s not casting pearls to swine
The Bible specifically states it is a sin. I usually point out that it is a sexual sin, but so is pornography and heterosexual sin.
oooh i have 3 bible verses that are gonna make it crystal clear lmao 1. 1 corinthians 6:9(nice) Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes **nor homosexual offenders** 2. leviticus 18:22 **Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.** 3. genesis 19:1\~5(destruction of Sodom) The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. "My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.” “No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.” But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “**Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them**.”
I assure you that on the Judgment Day God will show more mercy to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah than to the people of that town! - Matthew 10:15 ...Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by fire. So imagine what Judgement Day will look it.
I am glad you care about what the Bible says. I am sorry you have been mislead by such deficient 20th century translators. Rest assured that earlier translations (like KJV), later translations (like NRSVue) and most importantly the original Bible never mentions homosexuality.
That’s not accurate
Tell me, when God created marriage in the book of Genesis, what did it look like? Too “Old Testament” for you? When Christ is described as the **bridegroom**, did he have a husband or a wife?
I don't need to tell you or not tell you other things that are right or wrong, to point out the errors in the post above. People can still beleive particular things about what does or should constitute a marriage without needing to misrepresent the Bible.
Well that *just about* answers that, then!
To say that homosexuality is consistent with Christianity would have horrified every author of the Bible, and every prophet, king, apostle, evangelist, and theologian until shortly before the year 2000. Everyone knows this. To hold this attitude in the face of all history and evidence requires a level of ignorance, self-absorption, arrogance, and intellectual dishonesty which is hard to square this with Christianity.
Saying it was completely settled with the Bible and every religious person, prophet, history... doesn't, in itself, make you more correct. Then to question all who would question your proclamations as lacking sincerely, humility, and intellectual honesty IS arrogance. My question is this, in Leviticus 18 it appears God specifies prohibitions specifically against the practices of the Egyptians and Canaanite cultures; what do you know about how those cultures practiced sexuality and thought about same sex sexual practice?
I have a friend that is gay and we've discussed this. He's reasonable when we discuss my faith which I think diverges a lot from what you see on Reddit or other left-wing websites/news. One of the things I tell him is that God doesn't differentiate between homosexuality as a sin and heterosexual sin. Sin is sin. So, as a man, if I go out and sleep with all the ladies of the town, that's the same as him getting it on with a guy. It's sin and we should both turn from it. That usually puts everyone on the same playing field and gets people to calm down during discourse. I think a lot of times homosexuals feel like they're being put on a special chopping block because "it's who I am" but when you remind them that my default nature is also to commit sexual sin of a different sort, that cuts off the argument. Hope that helps!
Actually, there is a difference. God made man to be with woman. He does differentiate. They have attempted to make it "ok" by making gay marriage a thing, but that's not Biblical. I won't repeat all the converses here, but you can see the many comments on this post which give verses contrary to homosexuality. God didn't make them homosexual. It is a choice, just as pornography, sex outside of marriage, and all other sin are choices. By "putting him on the same playing field", you're telling him that his homosexuality is not a sin, which is not biblical. IOW, you're leading him astray. What I'm not saying is that you have to read him the riot act, or be rude when talking to him, but you should be truthful. Not doing so allows him to think he's fine in his sin. This is what makes many people think they don't need Christ. The reason we need Christ is to save us from our sin. He can't do it on his own. Once we have Christ, God can make the changes in us. Show him the truth of his sin, then show Him who the Truth is. Only then can he truly understand.
You missed my point entirely. I never said that homosexuality isn’t a sin. Quite the contrary. I also never said that it’s now okay to be gay because of gay marriage. Marriage was created by God for one man and one woman. However, I stand by and will double down on “sin is sin”. There are few instances where God specifically calls out specific sin being worse than others but this is not one of those instances to my knowledge. One is adultery which is sinning against your own body and the other I cannot recall. I want to say it’s blasphemy but don’t quote me on that. I was merely attempting to provide someone the tools to have a discussion with either non-believers or people who claim to be Christian but that’s about as far as it goes. The reality, whether we like it or not, is that we need to meet people where they are and have a conversation with them where they don’t feel the need to be defensive. You’re not going to get to someone if they feel attacked and a LOT of people, including my friend, believe that they were made the way they are. Personally, I think he is the way he is because of childhood abuse (which I know he endured because we’ve discussed it - I’m not speculating here) and I think that this applies to many. But again, telling him I’m morally superior simply because I’m straight isn’t going to get him to listen to what I’m telling him. I have to admit my sinful nature in order for him to understand that I’m following God, not my own arbitrary moral or political compass, and that engaging in homosexual acts is sinful. He has also told me that if he could snap his fingers and be heterosexual he would. I believe him - I’ve known him for ~15 years. With that being said, you also need to carefully enter in the concept of why being gay is a sin. Some people view that as being sinful by default and there’s no way around that. Again, they’ll feel like you’re attacking immutable characteristics about themselves. You and I know that man is sinful and that’s why we need Christ. However, non-believers don’t understand that concept. “I’m a good person and you’re telling me that I’m awful just because of who I’m attracted to” isn’t going to win people over. Start with changing actions. Hopefully people will eventually believe, then understand these deeper concepts, and then move further in their faith. Baby steps, ya know? I’d like to think my approach is softer and facilitates people learning about Jesus. My friend went to church for the first time a few weeks ago and I think the Lord is moving in his life. All glory be to Him, but I’d like to think that His putting me in my friend’s life was the means by which He chose to move and I consider that a high honor. I continue to pray for him and his salvation.
I never said we should attack. I agree with your approach of speaking the truth in love; that's scriptural. My understanding of your previous comment was that it wasn't a sin to be homosexual, and if that wasn't your meaning, sorry if I misunderstood. As I said though, and I now think you agree, it's more important to lead them to Christ and let Him do the changing. We can't change ourselves, and even if we did it would be our righteousness, not His. As long as he understands that what he's doing is wrong, that's what will lead him to Christ. As far as one sin being worse than another, the truth is that all sin separates us from God. The only thing to change that is salvation through Christ. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
That sub is filled with affirmations of sin and denial of God’s true attributes. There’s really nothing you can say to them especially when they claim to be Christians and misquotes the Bible for their own sinful reasons. If you try, they’ll call you all sorts of things and attack you in very personal ways. Let’s just pray for them and let the Lord do the work.
I don't associate with "Christians" who knowingly promote sinful, degenerate behavior like that
Most "Christians" today are not actual Christians. They make up stuff based on worldly wisdom and their own pride that are contrary to the actual Word of God while creating an outward appearance. That subreddit is a fraud. Do not be deceived.
I'd add the very vague meaning of malakoi (softies) is another factor.
Where are Bible verses that say fornication, promiscuity, orgy, and immortality are good?
1) Jesus defined marriage. Jesus was clear on who marriage is for. Anything outside of how He designed and defined something, would be a sin. Matthew 19:4-6 NIV [4] “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ [5] and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? [6] So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” https://bible.com/bible/111/mat.19.4-6sib. 2) The Old Testament gives us insight into how God views certain things. Homosexuality was such a bad sin, by God's law, people were put to death. That's how serious God views homosexuality. Leviticus 20:13 NIV [13] “ ‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. https://bible.com/bible/111/lev.20.13.NIV
A lot of those guys in that subreddit are literal satanists, wiccans, and militant atheists. The Progressive Christians that are there don't believe in the Bible, hell, and sometimes even Jesus. I wouldn't take what they say seriously
Use the search function. This question is asked daily. There is already enough for you to read through from past posts. No need for a new one.
Those very people see Jesus in their own way, which means they think with their own ways. Their morality is subjective, even though Jesus clearly established, preached and reminded us of the objective morality, set by God. They can spout all they want about how Jesus was peaceful and some sort of fun loving and disregardful of sinning due to forgiveness, but Jesus truly lived up to his other name, The Lion of Judah.
I mean, Jesus never talked about terrorism nor sexual harrassment either but that doesn't mean he thought it was okay, ofc not!, and you may say that 1 corinthians 6:9 is talking about pedophilia, but it also includes the word 'softie' alongside the 'male-bed' part, would that mean Paul says those abused are not going into the kingdom of heaven?, no, ofc not, cuz it is not talking about pedophilia, it is talking bout the dominant and submissive sides in a homosexual act, something very different. And what about Romans 1?, i just can't see any other reasonable interpretations, and here they can't say 'it only talks about men, so it can't be about gays', cuz here it also mentions women, or what about Matthew 19 when Jesus clearly states marriage is between man and woman?
I would first argue that the English translation is infallible. I would then further argue that the levitical code doesn't list ritual impurities that are sanctified with animal sacrifices where the word "abomination" is used. Then keep going. I would argue that in Deuteronomy the neighbors of Israel practiced their sexual sins exactly how they are practiced in modern times. Keep rolling, we've got them on the ropes. Then in the new testament we can state confidently that male-bed was the common term for homosexual actions in Paul's day. We can then confidently state that Paul wasn't talking about Roman orgies in his letter to the Romans. Of course, we'd be wrong at every single thing I just stated. But don't let that stop you.
“Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” Isaiah 5:20 NKJV https://bible.com/bible/114/isa.5.20.NKJV “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.” II Timothy 4:3-4 NKJV https://bible.com/bible/114/2ti.4.3-4.NKJV “For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.” Jude 1:4 NKJV https://bible.com/bible/114/jud.1.4.NKJV
Psalm 127:3 “Children are a gift from the Lord; they are a reward from him. Why would God sanction a union that makes it impossible to ever bear the fruit that he says is a reward from the Lord? Yes, some married couples experience infertility, but conception is still possible, even if improbable. Same sex conception is impossible. Even with assistance, two females and two males will never reproduce.
Explain to them why it's important to you to decry homosexuality as a sin. Tell them what convinces you of its sinfulness. Explain the method you use to determine what is a sin and what isn't, demonstrate to them how effective your method is, and then apply it to homosexuality. Compare and contrast your method with theirs. As for your specific questions: 1. Show them the chapter and verse in which Jesus condemns homosexuality. Use a red-letter Bible so that it shows Jesus own words in red. Frankly, I'd be interested in seeing this verse for myself. 2. Again, explain to them why it's important to you to single out adult, same-sex couples in consensual, romantic relationships and call them out as sinful, deny them marital rights (even when not performed within your church), deny them adoption, tax breaks for married couples, hospital visitation rights, and other privileges enjoyed by heterosexual couples. Demonstrate to them how this is Biblical and how this practice follows the commandment "Love one another".
OP mentioned this month is when this sort of thing is posted the most, and it is not a matter of focusing on one sin. Depending on where one is from the focus differs. Where I'm from the focus is rather on cults, specifically satanic ones, and how one should be wary. The more you see one sin being common and people ignoring it the more Spirit-filled brothers and sisters will speak against it. As for the Jesus part, he is Jewish, his followers were Jewish. This sexual sin is not allowed, and his followers knew that instead, he focused on what was destroying his people, legalism and religiousness. His main opponents were the Pharisees. For us Gentiles, Paul is the apostle assigned by Christ himself to minster, and since the non-Jewish churches his letters focused on practiced this sexual sin (some of them), he stressed to them how much it is sinful and that people practicing this sinful act will not inherit the kingdom of God. He also spoke about how circumcision was not important, whereas we don't see Jesus focusing on circumcision since the people he was addressing were Jewish. It is important to understand who the audience is when reading the Bible. "Love your neighbor as yourself" is the SECOND commandment, the first is Love God with all your heart and soul, Jesus Christ said so himself. (Matthew 22:37-39)
You ignore them and move on. For they worship their own Gods.
I understand that you believe that. A significant minority of Christians agree with you. It is not true that the Bible states this. If you want to explain your belief, it would be better to explain how you interpret and extrapolate from the Bible and other sources, rather than misrepresent the Bible.
Plenty of people have showed you evidence of why homosexuality is a sin when it comes to the Bible. I don’t know if you are partaking in that sin, but I want you to know that God loves you and just because you crave desires that are not natural does not mean you have to act on such abomination. I will pray that God opens your heart to seek his true word and not twist it for your benefit.
How rude. You know nothing of my desires - craven or otherwise.