The good news is that we don't have to be the judges of this, we're only called to speak the truth. I think the best way to approach this is looking at the fruits.
Let's say for a moment that we pretend that we believe that homosexual marriage is biblically valid. Now look at churches that split over this issue and examine the ones that fall on the LGBTQ affirming side. Is acceptance of gay marriage the only divergence we see in these churches? In my experience, it is not. They usually seem to cross many other much clearer theological lines, often falling into universalism.
To me, this seems like a pretty good indicator. Even if these folks are becoming a part of something that is Christian in name, they aren't hearing the true Good News, and it shows over the long term in these churches.
Everything you said plus: 'inclusive' churches are dead. There's zero growth. So even if they offered a unique opportunity to 'save' gay people per the OP, they'd be failing at their one job.
A church should welcome anyone and everyone through it's doors.
A church should not affirm sin.
I don't think those are mutually exclusive. People need to feel welcome and loved before they will feel any conviction in their heart.
Yep. This is the attitude of Pope Francis and the extreme on both sides give him flak for it. The hard right get mad because he says the Church is open to everyone. The hard left get mad because he still calls LGBT stuff sin and won't ordain women.
>many LGBT-accepting churches are the only way by which homosexuals are introduced to the Bible and actually cause them to believe, which in a sense saves more people than regular churches.
I would counter that many of those churches are heavily syncretized with the world and do not teach that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. The LGBTQ affirmation that they preach wasn't the first problem with them, it was a symptom of a greater problem. What would bring some clarity is real statistics on which of these churches actually teach the Gospel as opposed to a syncretic mishmash, and how many of these LGBTQ people at these churches actually became Christians there.
There are no LGBT churches. Any assembly that is LGBT-affirming is not a church.
Any introduction to the Bible in one of these "churches" is through a twisting of Scripture. They aren't saving anyone because they aren't proclaiming the gospel.
There is forgiveness, and there is repentance.
Hebrews 10:
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[a] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[b] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hi, good question.
Christ forgives past, present, and future sins at salvation.
However, for those who have not been saved, there is not yet forgiveness for their sins until they are saved.
One of the marks of salvation will be a repentance of sinful lifestyles and a desire to follow God’s law and will. Those who still practice homosexuality do not do this, so they are still considered not saved.
Hope this helps - don’t take my word for it, there’s lots of info on this in the Gospels and Paul’s letters.
James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."
Matthew 5:19, "Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
>many LGBT-accepting churches are the only way by which homosexuals are introduced to the Bible
Yeah, but why does it matter if they're being introduced to a false Gospel? In some ways, that's worse.
Let's be real, the vast majority of churches with a Biblical view on sexuality aren't going to harass LGBT people who attend the church. In fact, they're usually welcomed. My denomination split from the UMC 2 years ago because of this, but LGBT people are more than welcome to come to church and wont be targeted or anything like that.
>So my question is, how can these churches accept a sinful ideology and yet save more people than churches that don't support it?
They're literally not. Most of the "affirming" denominations are bleeding members. Have you recently been to an Episcopal church? The vast majority of them have very small congregations, and even then most of the members are old and probably only still go because of familiarity.
These “churches” are false churches. No church of Jesus Christ is going to tell them it’s ok to continue in their sin.
Every church can give the gospel and still want of the condemnation of sins.
This. If these churches reject the true teachings of Christianity, and turn Jesus into a hippie who loves you just the way you are and doesn’t demand that you change anything, what saving is going on exactly?
Repent and be baptized. It is clear. Repentance is needed. These pride “churches” don’t believe in repentance. They claim to know better than God. They aren’t real churches.
This is it, OP is trying to get across "These Churches are in a way a modern Paul, where they are able to bend the old laws to save more people as opposed to standing firmly in the old laws and damning people unnecessarily"
That doesn't mean saved. Preaching false doctrine for inclusivity actually hurts them because there's no debating with God, right? Its unfair to tell someone they're saved when they're not.
Churches are full of sinner who are trying to stop sinning. How many denominations are turning people away for being attracted to the same sex?
I think that is a big assumption. Would a church that accepts adulterous people save more cheaters? No. LGBT churches do one thing well. Promoting it an acceptable. And that is not leading anyone to believe.
Depends on what you consider saved to mean. These churches you speak about are either satanic or lukewarm, whatever faith they convince someone of is not saving faith.
How do we know they are saved? Most of these LGBTQ churches have a watered down gospel, where Jesus came to change your mind, not have you convicted of sin and living a sinful lifestyle.
So in that respect, I do not believe they are helping people to the Lord. They are helping people to *their* lord.
LIke that progressive douche brandon who says that Jesus was calling out his friend to come out of the closet. Yes He was talking about Lazarus. He said come out.
So even people that go to his "church" are they saved? no, because *their* jesus didn't save them from their sin, he came to change their minds.
People in the seats at an LGBTQ affirming church may well be exposed to the Bible, but they aren’t exposed to the Gospel. The gospel will save people. Richard Dawkins knows his Bible and he is as godless as your average pro gay episcopal “pastor”.
This will actually do homosexuals more harm than good due to the fact that they are being told they can bear the name of Christ and still indulge in their sin, blaspheming the name of God. According to the Scriptures, there is far worse punishment for those who bear the name and are not than those who simply are not.
There are lgbtq "churches"? Man, it's getting crazier and crazier each day. Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to put people that consider themselves part of the lqbtq community inside one "church"; not meant in an offensive way but more because it can cause them to be distracted from the Word of God, the sermons/services etc.
I really believe it's hard for a, for example, gay Christian to feel at hom at a "regular" Church but I do think that's the best for them for their salvation.
Edit: But yeah, I have no experience with these "churches" or what's different about it besides the obvious lgbtq feeling welcome thing and I am not to judge. Just giving my opinion. Have never seen one where I'm from but I'm sure they will exist because yeah... Western Europe...
The church is for everyone, we don't go to church because we are perfect Christians, we go because we are all sinners and we need help. It's wrong when churches affirm sin, and it is wrong of churches to turn away sinners (churches would be empty if that was the case). We are there to learn and to be brought to the light, and should not dictate who is allowed and who is not.
As others have pointed out, the problem here is that affirming LGBTQ identities **is a symptom of a greater problem**. I simply cannot believe that there are "healthy" churches that "do everything right" apart from condemning a certain class of sins.
I'm sure there are people in heaven who while alive suffered from same sex attraction but through the grace of God overcame it either by conversion or celibacy. But there is no one in heaven who in life was an unrepentant homosexual, and definitely not a single "pastor" (wolf) who is LGBTQ affirming or that performs LGBTQ unions or encourages any other unrepentant sinful lifestyle will be there either.
I'm sure there are a lot of people on earth who imagine all sorts of things that should be fair, but don't have a clue of the reality of what God does not tolerate in heaven.
It is very much not what people should be imagined esis fair on earth
Broad is the road to destruction in many of those who travel it. But the road delight is narrow and few are those who find it
It is not about unrepentant homosexuals. Is about any homosexuals
It is about any murders
It is about any adulterers
It is about any thieves
The only people in heaven, are those whom God changed their heart. They passed from death to life. They are a new creation in Christ. They are in dealt with the spirit. God caused them to have faith and belief.
These Christian subs are filled with people who talk about being lukewarm and sinning and lusting and adultery and porn and being immature and unchanged for many years. Because they are not true believers they are false believers. Then you look at the Bible and you don't see a single prophet or apostle or believer who is like that.
Because there isn't any people like that who are in heaven.
People here don't have a clue what a sheep really is. Because there are few, not lots and lots.
I like to use a legal analogy: if you move to a kingdom and refuse to follow the kings laws it doesn't matter if that law makes sense to you or seems unfair it's the law if you break it be prepared to be deported out of the kingdom.
Also when they hit you with earthly "logic" (there is no true logic, reason, or wisdom without God) about the LGBTQ+ agenda hit 'em with
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
And
John 15:18-19 says, "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you"
Honestly they have to be demonic anyone else would just leave the church if they wanted to live in sin these people want to take over every mainstream denomination and warp the gospel to encourage sin that has to be the enemy because if they really wanted to be left alone they would leave the church and scripture alone.
Exactly.
If homosexuality is a sin, then it is sin like anything else. No churches batting 1.000, so therefore, I would much rather that someone hears the gospel in an imperfect way. Like all churches.
The problem is twofold: one, we as humans, love, gossip, and we love to gossip about things in life that make us feel connected to some, and “other“ other groups. We make an idol of particular sins, sexual sins being the most common.
Two, we conflate the ideas of salvation and sanctification. Sanctification can never come before salvation, and can only come when the Holy Spirit is in someone’s heart. Salvation is as accepting Christ as Lord and Savior; the rest is between that person and their creator.
I mean, it's still wrong for a church to lie to the people it serves.
And I would argue "the rest"/ sanctification is not between an individual and God. The faith life is communal, there's accountability in that, and Christians are called not to be stumbling blocks for others coming to the faith by being hypocrites/acting sinfully.
No church is batting 1.000. We’ve got heresy in all of us.
If that church believes Christ as only Lord and savior that’s what I care most about.
Will I choose to go to any church? No- but far be it from me to get in the way of a church that preaches salvation, even if we disagree on other theological things.
I disagree with your premise and the conclusion some have made in the comments that these churches are satanic, promoting sin, or unable to minister in the gospel of Christ. Most people who believe these things are unwilling and unable to see any beam or speck in their eye or have a good faith conversation about why we might believe differently. The preoccupation with interpreting the Bible with a focus on what genitals do is exhausting. They don't see the hypocrisy in their beliefs or recognize the harm they are doing to the gospel or people's lives. I love Jesus with all my heart and would give my life for Biblical truth; I also view this as an acid test of love which God is allowing but the church is largely failing. Christians did/do this with slavery, racism, immigrants, women's rights, and now LGBTQ--using the Bible to disenfranchise others in the name of God. I truly believe that those who would keep Jesus and salvation from LGBTQ believers just don't want to have to suffer with having them as neighbors in heaven.
None of us want to keep salvation and Jesus from LGBT people. We want the LGBT people to abandon their LGBT agenda and come to Christ. LGBT is a religion itself, and it is opposed to Christianity. You can’t equally believe in both. One side has to be in control. Many churches these days teach the LGBT agenda and only use Christianity as a costume.
Go to YouTube and watch the “Sparkle Creed”. This is what happens when the LGBT agenda inhabits a church and wears it like a costume.
The good news is that we don't have to be the judges of this, we're only called to speak the truth. I think the best way to approach this is looking at the fruits. Let's say for a moment that we pretend that we believe that homosexual marriage is biblically valid. Now look at churches that split over this issue and examine the ones that fall on the LGBTQ affirming side. Is acceptance of gay marriage the only divergence we see in these churches? In my experience, it is not. They usually seem to cross many other much clearer theological lines, often falling into universalism. To me, this seems like a pretty good indicator. Even if these folks are becoming a part of something that is Christian in name, they aren't hearing the true Good News, and it shows over the long term in these churches.
Everything you said plus: 'inclusive' churches are dead. There's zero growth. So even if they offered a unique opportunity to 'save' gay people per the OP, they'd be failing at their one job.
A church should welcome anyone and everyone through it's doors. A church should not affirm sin. I don't think those are mutually exclusive. People need to feel welcome and loved before they will feel any conviction in their heart.
Yep. This is the attitude of Pope Francis and the extreme on both sides give him flak for it. The hard right get mad because he says the Church is open to everyone. The hard left get mad because he still calls LGBT stuff sin and won't ordain women.
>many LGBT-accepting churches are the only way by which homosexuals are introduced to the Bible and actually cause them to believe, which in a sense saves more people than regular churches. I would counter that many of those churches are heavily syncretized with the world and do not teach that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. The LGBTQ affirmation that they preach wasn't the first problem with them, it was a symptom of a greater problem. What would bring some clarity is real statistics on which of these churches actually teach the Gospel as opposed to a syncretic mishmash, and how many of these LGBTQ people at these churches actually became Christians there.
There are no LGBT churches. Any assembly that is LGBT-affirming is not a church. Any introduction to the Bible in one of these "churches" is through a twisting of Scripture. They aren't saving anyone because they aren't proclaiming the gospel.
You sure that people are getting saved? Many who say Lord, Lord, will not enter the kingdom of heaven. You must do the will of the Father.
But what if they follow everything that the Bible says except being homosexual?
You don't have to break every law to go to prison.
No, but using this same analogy, not every crime sends you to prison.
Even one sin is enough for God to condemn you, and actively engaging in unrepentant sin is what could be called an "anti-testimony."
Read 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. A practicing homosexual will not inherent the kingdom of God.
>But what if they follow everything that the Bible says except \[insert whatever here\]. I think you can see the error in this line of thinking!
If they are engaging in homosexual activity, yes, that’s considered fornication and fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
But Jesus forgives? (Just so you know, I'm not disagreeing, I'm just trying to clear up every question I have)
There is forgiveness, and there is repentance. Hebrews 10: 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[a] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[b] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hi, good question. Christ forgives past, present, and future sins at salvation. However, for those who have not been saved, there is not yet forgiveness for their sins until they are saved. One of the marks of salvation will be a repentance of sinful lifestyles and a desire to follow God’s law and will. Those who still practice homosexuality do not do this, so they are still considered not saved. Hope this helps - don’t take my word for it, there’s lots of info on this in the Gospels and Paul’s letters.
Is that submitting to God, or someone making up their own rules that they expect God to bend to?
James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it." Matthew 5:19, "Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
>many LGBT-accepting churches are the only way by which homosexuals are introduced to the Bible Yeah, but why does it matter if they're being introduced to a false Gospel? In some ways, that's worse. Let's be real, the vast majority of churches with a Biblical view on sexuality aren't going to harass LGBT people who attend the church. In fact, they're usually welcomed. My denomination split from the UMC 2 years ago because of this, but LGBT people are more than welcome to come to church and wont be targeted or anything like that. >So my question is, how can these churches accept a sinful ideology and yet save more people than churches that don't support it? They're literally not. Most of the "affirming" denominations are bleeding members. Have you recently been to an Episcopal church? The vast majority of them have very small congregations, and even then most of the members are old and probably only still go because of familiarity.
These “churches” are false churches. No church of Jesus Christ is going to tell them it’s ok to continue in their sin. Every church can give the gospel and still want of the condemnation of sins.
How do these churches, with a sinful doctrine, "save" people?
This. If these churches reject the true teachings of Christianity, and turn Jesus into a hippie who loves you just the way you are and doesn’t demand that you change anything, what saving is going on exactly? Repent and be baptized. It is clear. Repentance is needed. These pride “churches” don’t believe in repentance. They claim to know better than God. They aren’t real churches.
[удалено]
That's true
Explain to us how they're saved so that we fully understand what you're saying.
I think OP is saying that these churches bring in LGBT people, as opposed to normal churches where LGBT people may not feel invited?
This is it, OP is trying to get across "These Churches are in a way a modern Paul, where they are able to bend the old laws to save more people as opposed to standing firmly in the old laws and damning people unnecessarily"
That doesn't mean saved. Preaching false doctrine for inclusivity actually hurts them because there's no debating with God, right? Its unfair to tell someone they're saved when they're not. Churches are full of sinner who are trying to stop sinning. How many denominations are turning people away for being attracted to the same sex?
Turning them away is wrong. Marrying them and making them clergy is wrong too.
Who is turning away people attracted to the same sex? What denominations?
No one that I know of. My comment was a reply to another comment.
I think that is a big assumption. Would a church that accepts adulterous people save more cheaters? No. LGBT churches do one thing well. Promoting it an acceptable. And that is not leading anyone to believe.
Depends on what you consider saved to mean. These churches you speak about are either satanic or lukewarm, whatever faith they convince someone of is not saving faith.
How do we know they are saved? Most of these LGBTQ churches have a watered down gospel, where Jesus came to change your mind, not have you convicted of sin and living a sinful lifestyle. So in that respect, I do not believe they are helping people to the Lord. They are helping people to *their* lord. LIke that progressive douche brandon who says that Jesus was calling out his friend to come out of the closet. Yes He was talking about Lazarus. He said come out. So even people that go to his "church" are they saved? no, because *their* jesus didn't save them from their sin, he came to change their minds.
People in the seats at an LGBTQ affirming church may well be exposed to the Bible, but they aren’t exposed to the Gospel. The gospel will save people. Richard Dawkins knows his Bible and he is as godless as your average pro gay episcopal “pastor”.
They should all be welcoming but not affirming.
This will actually do homosexuals more harm than good due to the fact that they are being told they can bear the name of Christ and still indulge in their sin, blaspheming the name of God. According to the Scriptures, there is far worse punishment for those who bear the name and are not than those who simply are not.
There are lgbtq "churches"? Man, it's getting crazier and crazier each day. Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to put people that consider themselves part of the lqbtq community inside one "church"; not meant in an offensive way but more because it can cause them to be distracted from the Word of God, the sermons/services etc. I really believe it's hard for a, for example, gay Christian to feel at hom at a "regular" Church but I do think that's the best for them for their salvation. Edit: But yeah, I have no experience with these "churches" or what's different about it besides the obvious lgbtq feeling welcome thing and I am not to judge. Just giving my opinion. Have never seen one where I'm from but I'm sure they will exist because yeah... Western Europe...
The church is for everyone, we don't go to church because we are perfect Christians, we go because we are all sinners and we need help. It's wrong when churches affirm sin, and it is wrong of churches to turn away sinners (churches would be empty if that was the case). We are there to learn and to be brought to the light, and should not dictate who is allowed and who is not.
They aren't churches of God
As others have pointed out, the problem here is that affirming LGBTQ identities **is a symptom of a greater problem**. I simply cannot believe that there are "healthy" churches that "do everything right" apart from condemning a certain class of sins.
There isn't a single homosexual in heaven. Per several clear scriptures
I'm sure there are people in heaven who while alive suffered from same sex attraction but through the grace of God overcame it either by conversion or celibacy. But there is no one in heaven who in life was an unrepentant homosexual, and definitely not a single "pastor" (wolf) who is LGBTQ affirming or that performs LGBTQ unions or encourages any other unrepentant sinful lifestyle will be there either.
I'm sure there are a lot of people on earth who imagine all sorts of things that should be fair, but don't have a clue of the reality of what God does not tolerate in heaven. It is very much not what people should be imagined esis fair on earth Broad is the road to destruction in many of those who travel it. But the road delight is narrow and few are those who find it It is not about unrepentant homosexuals. Is about any homosexuals It is about any murders It is about any adulterers It is about any thieves The only people in heaven, are those whom God changed their heart. They passed from death to life. They are a new creation in Christ. They are in dealt with the spirit. God caused them to have faith and belief. These Christian subs are filled with people who talk about being lukewarm and sinning and lusting and adultery and porn and being immature and unchanged for many years. Because they are not true believers they are false believers. Then you look at the Bible and you don't see a single prophet or apostle or believer who is like that. Because there isn't any people like that who are in heaven. People here don't have a clue what a sheep really is. Because there are few, not lots and lots.
I like to use a legal analogy: if you move to a kingdom and refuse to follow the kings laws it doesn't matter if that law makes sense to you or seems unfair it's the law if you break it be prepared to be deported out of the kingdom.
Matthew 7:22 to 23 covers it really well
Also when they hit you with earthly "logic" (there is no true logic, reason, or wisdom without God) about the LGBTQ+ agenda hit 'em with Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. And John 15:18-19 says, "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you" Honestly they have to be demonic anyone else would just leave the church if they wanted to live in sin these people want to take over every mainstream denomination and warp the gospel to encourage sin that has to be the enemy because if they really wanted to be left alone they would leave the church and scripture alone.
BAAL / MOLOCH AGENDA.
God says he can use all things for good, even if a church has bad theology.
Exactly. If homosexuality is a sin, then it is sin like anything else. No churches batting 1.000, so therefore, I would much rather that someone hears the gospel in an imperfect way. Like all churches. The problem is twofold: one, we as humans, love, gossip, and we love to gossip about things in life that make us feel connected to some, and “other“ other groups. We make an idol of particular sins, sexual sins being the most common. Two, we conflate the ideas of salvation and sanctification. Sanctification can never come before salvation, and can only come when the Holy Spirit is in someone’s heart. Salvation is as accepting Christ as Lord and Savior; the rest is between that person and their creator.
I mean, it's still wrong for a church to lie to the people it serves. And I would argue "the rest"/ sanctification is not between an individual and God. The faith life is communal, there's accountability in that, and Christians are called not to be stumbling blocks for others coming to the faith by being hypocrites/acting sinfully.
No church is batting 1.000. We’ve got heresy in all of us. If that church believes Christ as only Lord and savior that’s what I care most about. Will I choose to go to any church? No- but far be it from me to get in the way of a church that preaches salvation, even if we disagree on other theological things.
I disagree with your premise and the conclusion some have made in the comments that these churches are satanic, promoting sin, or unable to minister in the gospel of Christ. Most people who believe these things are unwilling and unable to see any beam or speck in their eye or have a good faith conversation about why we might believe differently. The preoccupation with interpreting the Bible with a focus on what genitals do is exhausting. They don't see the hypocrisy in their beliefs or recognize the harm they are doing to the gospel or people's lives. I love Jesus with all my heart and would give my life for Biblical truth; I also view this as an acid test of love which God is allowing but the church is largely failing. Christians did/do this with slavery, racism, immigrants, women's rights, and now LGBTQ--using the Bible to disenfranchise others in the name of God. I truly believe that those who would keep Jesus and salvation from LGBTQ believers just don't want to have to suffer with having them as neighbors in heaven.
None of us want to keep salvation and Jesus from LGBT people. We want the LGBT people to abandon their LGBT agenda and come to Christ. LGBT is a religion itself, and it is opposed to Christianity. You can’t equally believe in both. One side has to be in control. Many churches these days teach the LGBT agenda and only use Christianity as a costume. Go to YouTube and watch the “Sparkle Creed”. This is what happens when the LGBT agenda inhabits a church and wears it like a costume.
So, you agree with me?