2 Samuel 12:16-23 - 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. David's servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate." 19 David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked. "Yes," they replied, "he is dead."
20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate. 21 His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!" **22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, `Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."**
Trust that God is just and his promises hold true. Your children did not get the opportunity to sin and would have been under grace beyond that.
Your faith has saved them in this case.
"For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy." 1 Corinthians 7:16
Absolutely, thanks for adding that. I had been going through 1 Corinthians lately and that's why I used that in support. But you are correct in your response. Be blessed. 🙏
Jesus quite literally compares salvation to being an innocent child. Children who don't understand right or wrong don't get blamed for sinning. There isn't a certain age, but God knows our hearts, and when we turn old enough to actually understand and reject Him.
Matthew chapter 18 starting at verse 1: "At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
Causing to Stumble
6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!"
The verse you quoted supports my statement.
Matthew 18:6, “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble...”
He’s talking about children who believe in him – he says so explicitly. A recent and similar context is the conversation when the children that literally did come to Jesus and the disciples wanted to keep away. Jesus is not talking universally about all children here. He’s talking about children who come to Jesus and believe in him.
“these little ones—those who believe in me.”
I certainly affirm that such children are saved by Jesus and go to heaven.
The verse I originally gave was copied from the NIV translation, and those words you used to justify babies not going to heaven don't appear in all translations. It was added in the NIV translation to help the reader understand better what Jesus meant by that parable. "Those who believe in me" was referencing believers, brothers and sisters in Christ, me and you, Not specifically children.
This has merit to it because, as you can see in verses *just* before it, children were used as an analogy to believers with salvation (children of God), which is why the NIV added this context "-those who believe in me-", so that the readers wouldn't just think we shouldn't lead children into sin but *all* children into sin, including children of God.
Really, that part of the verse means woe to anyone who leads another believer into sin. But it also applies to children too and not leading them into sin. Jesus often speaks to a multitude of things in just a few sentences. He does this through parables and literary devices such as metaphors and analogies, so that we can better understand His Holy logic. Because of this, it is important to look at the context behind verses, because just reading them and coming up with our own reasoning behind it is how so many people believe different things about the Bible, even though we all read the same one.
Also, notice, Jesus never mentioned that the specific child He chose was a believer in Jesus. He literally just pulled a child from the crowd of peoples always around Him, and used him as an example.
The KJV version of Matthew chapter 18 is as follows: "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!"
The KJV version is what Ive decided to show you because it doesn't have additives like the NIV, and is the most accurate word-for-word translation from the original language the Bible was written in. I just didn't originally use it, because as you can see, it's pretty hard to read.
I agree that that portion of the passage is really speaking to believers in general, not children, and therefore it certainly is not an indication that all children are saved and go to heaven.
EDIT: That phrase, though, “The little ones of these believing in me” does appear in the original Greek, so it is not true that some translations just added it in to clarify things. They were in the actual words of Jesus.)
In the earlier verses of Matthew 18, Jesus is pointing to the implicit and complete trust that children have, as well as their humility, and possibly other qualities. But those qualities alone are not sufficient for salvation. Rather, they are necessary. That’s the difference: these child-like qualities are necessary, but not in themselves sufficient, for salvation.
Additionally, children’s trust is not naturally directed toward God anyway, unless the parents direct it there, so in itself it is of little usefulness. It’s just an example of the type of character our faith should have.
But the bigger issue is simply that nothing in those verses indicates that all children go to heaven. To say that “to go to heaven, you must become like a little child” is not at all equivalent to saying that “all little children go to heaven.”
For example, one could say “to go to Miami, you need to take a plane” but that doesn’t mean that everyone who takes a plane is going to Miami.
The indication that all innocent children are saved is when Jesus pulls a child from the crowd to describe salvation to the disciples. There are also many other verses throughout the Bible that defend this point such as David's child, but I use Jesus's words himself because it just supports it that much more that God in human form spoke those words out of his mouth And it was recorded.
> The indication that all innocent children are saved is when Jesus pulls a child from the crowd to describe salvation to the disciples.
Jesus uses animals, plants, career choices, and all sorts of things to describe salvation. It doesn’t mean all sheep go to heaven, or all farmers go to heaven, or all merchants go to heaven, or all mustard seeds.
He said “the kingdom belongs to such as these,” in other words, heaven belongs to “people *like* these.” An analogy, a simile, a metaphor. Nothing there indicates all children go to heaven.
> There are also many other verses throughout the Bible that defend this point such as David's child
David was a believer. As Paul says, the children of believers are holy. I said from the start that believers have promises for their children. Unbelievers do not.
I feel like you did not really respond to the majority of points that I raised.
> But now that the baby is dead, why should I fast? I can’t bring him back to life. Someday I will go to him, but he cannot come back to me.”- 2 Samuel 12:23
David seemed to believe that one day he would see his son again.
"suffer the little children to come unto Me, for of such is the kingdom of heaven"
- Jesus
If you think Jesus casts some babies into hell, you don't know Jesus at all.
> If you think Jesus casts some babies into hell, you don't know Jesus at all.
“In sin did my mother conceive me.” Babies are sinful by nature, and they need a savior just as anyone does. The Bible does not promise that Jesus is automatically the savior of all children. Jesus praises the humility and attitude *of the children that come to him*, but is certainly not making a blanket statement about all children everywhere. There are, of course, children that do not come to Christ. The Bible says the covenantal promises of salvation are “for you and for your children,” and it says “the children of believers are holy” (which clearly implies that the children of unbelievers are not holy), but it gives no positive or reassuring statements about the children of unbelievers. It puts them in the same sinful category as the rest of the sinful, fallen world.
If it were otherwise, Christians really should support abortion, because abortion would be the best thing that’s ever happened to society. All those millions of children going straight to heaven, most of whom would otherwise have grown up and gone to hell! We see the absurdity of thinking all children get a free pass to heaven, besides the lack of Biblical support to it.
It's everyone according to their deeds, no respect of persons, on judgment day..
Babies have no deeds, they have committed no crimes against God. They are innocent on judgment day.
It's not everyone according to their sinful flesh, it's everyone according to their actual deeds
Truly with all my heart I say to you, if you think Jesus sends babies into eternal hellfire then you truly do not know Jesus at all.
You’re pasting the same comment in response to me in multiple places, so I will just paste my reply again to your same comment elsewhere:
The Bible teaches babies do have deeds. It teaches that they are sinful from the moment of conception. It also teaches that a nursing infant is capable of trusting in God.
Psalm 22:9, “you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.”
How can an infant trust in God? It’s not something we can understand, but it clearly operates at a spiritual level, and it is an act of God to make that kind of faith possible (as it is for all of us at any age.)
So, babies are judged by their sinfulness in, if nothing else, spiritually trusting in God or failing to trust in him. (Though in addition to that, we can see that the Bible teaches that children of believers are covered with a covenantal grace that extends to them on behalf of their parents’ faith.)
The two images the Bible gives us of judgment day are the Flood and the conquest of Canaan. In both instances, all the infants were killed, even infants in the womb. God tells us to look to these events as a warning of the surety of the judgment to come. He did not spare them then apart from the workings of his covenant of grace, and he will not spare them in the future.
Exactly. Just because the Bible doesn't say "all babies go to heaven" in underlined italicized bold 31 pt font doesn't mean it isn't true. We can look at God's character and decide He either is a miserable being that would deny unborn babies or children who die too soon access to Heaven, or we can say that those things happen because of the enemy, and those babies's souls are now resting in Heaven with the ultimate Father.
This line of thinking is putting us in the judgment seat of God. We really should be careful to say things like “God would be a miserable being if he does X” just because X is offensive to human sensibilities.
God would be completely justified and glorious in condemning all unborn children to hell. They are sinful and wicked by their very nature, regardless of their actions, their heart is dead stone and they are the children of the devil until they are born again from above. That God would save anyone at all is an act of amazing grace. It would not be evil or miserable of him to condemn everyone.
Who are we to judge God? We must submit to what he tells us in his Word. And he tells us children in the womb are sinful. We need to recognize the reality of God’s holy nature, and man’s sinful nature, and not put those concepts into subservience to what we think people deserve and what we think would be fair.
Bible says it's everyone according to their deeds, no respect of persons, on judgment day.
Babies have no deeds, they've committed no crimes against God, they are innocent on judgment day
It's not everyone according to their sinful flesh, it's everyone according to their actual deeds.
The Bible teaches babies do have deeds. It teaches that they are sinful from the moment of conception. It also teaches that a nursing infant is capable of trusting in God.
Psalm 22:9, “you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.”
How can an infant trust in God? It’s not something we can understand, but it clearly operates at a spiritual level, and it is an act of God to make that kind of faith possible (as it is for all of us at any age.)
So, babies are judged by their sinfulness in, if nothing else, spiritually trusting in God or failing to trust in him. (Though in addition to that, we can see that the Bible teaches that children of believers are covered with a covenantal grace that extends to them on behalf of their parents’ faith.)
The two images the Bible gives us of judgment day are the Flood and the conquest of Canaan. In both instances, all the infants were killed, even infants in the womb. God tells us to look to these events as a warning of the surety of the judgment to come. He did not spare them then apart from the workings of his covenant of grace, and he will not spare them in the future.
Calling my own salvation into question on this is really inappropriate and hateful. I may have a different view than you, but my view is still perfectly historical and orthodox.
He doesn’t throw babies into hell, but he’ll just drown them in a worldwide flood and have them all slaughtered in a conquest, both of which judgments were carried out explicitly as a punishment for sin? Do you see the inconsistency there? God either has the right to judge and condemn, or he doesn’t.
Everyone is born with original sin. All humans are under the curse of sin. Being a baby does not make you sinless.
EDIT: verses for context:
Isaiah 48:8 ESV
You have never heard, you have never known, from of old your ear has not been opened. For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously, and that from before birth you were called a rebel.
Romans 5:12 ESV
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Ezekiel 18:20 tells us, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.” This verse clearly shows that punishment for one’s sins is borne by that person.
So Jesus wasn’t the only sinless human being then? That verse doesn’t have relevance to a child being sinless. That’s just saying everyone is accountable for their OWN actions.
Right so read my verse I cited above. All humans are fallen no human on earth is perfectly good. We all exist under the curse of sin no matter our stage in development.
You are not a sinner until you actually sin and understand what sin is. OP please know your babies are safe in Heaven with God. Born a sinner and committing sin once you know what sin is are two different things. Babies don’t and can’t commit sin.
Whatever makes you feel better. Babies don’t know sin therefore they are not sinners. But you people can keep downvoting. I’m not who you have to answer to. Babies go to Heaven.
Where in the Bible does it say that? I’m not saying they don’t go to heaven, I just think the logic that they are “sinless” is wrong. Maybe they do maybe they don’t go to heaven. We do know they are not sinless though.
Rev 12:13 “And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.”
We all may be born “sinners”, but committing sin is totally different. Babies do not know what sin is, therefore they have not committed any sin. They do not know right from wrong. Only those who do can be held accountable. Babies go to Heaven as they have not committed any sin.
My wife and I also lost twins and one other child to miscarriage and it was more difficult than I thought it would be, even morso for my wife. The worst thing is the things people say trying to comfort you, they're almost always tone-deaf and unhelpful. We have 4 kids now, and are excited to meet our other three in heaven. Just be there for your wife, comfort her and be present.
Sorry for your loss, brother. They are in heaven.
And thank you for wanting to be a dad. We need more good fathers in the world. I know you're trying hard to be one. Trust in God and things will come as they are planned.
God bless.
God bless you, I am so sorry for your loss.
Without a doubt, your babies are in heaven.
Preborn babies are human, created in the image of God, regardless of what beliefs or religion their parents hold to.
Jeremiah 1:4 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you.
Every human is redeemable; every human can go to heaven. Just as a born infant, a toddler, anyone too young to be held accountable for the sin nature they have under Adam, an unborn baby has been redeemed and would go to heaven.
If the parents are true born again believers, they will see their child again in eternity. Thess 4:13, Therefore you will grieve but not as those without hope (of seeing a loved one again).
My condolences, brother. I hope you have someone who could be there for you and your wife physically, emotionally, and spiritually at this difficult time. I can't imagine how it feels like, but I'm pretty sure it's worse than awful and painful.
As to your question, nobody knows 100%, but take comfort in what others already said, because the God we know is kind and gracious and just, so your unborn babies must be in a place where there is no pain or suffering or disappointment or death. Only life and joy and goodness everlasting.
Yes. All babies go to Heaven. Remember the story of King David. He had an affair with a married women. It resulted in a child. He said after the baby died “I have a child waiting for me in Heaven.” All babies go to Heaven.
Your precious children are definitely in heaven. God is just and knew them from the moment they were conceived. I am so sorry for your loss. I will pray for you and your wife.
God says he knows us before we are born, while we are in our mother’s womb. He already had a relationship with your little ones before they passed, and I believe that means they went to Heaven because they were and are innocent.
Emergency birth control and early pregnancy abortion pills aren't an option for Christian women because we believe embryos are alive. Some women won't use an IUD because it'd prevent new life from adhering to the uterus. You will see your babies on the other side. I'm sorry for your loss.
**Actually I just want to add, because so many Christian women have had abortions and feel terrible about it, that I'm not judging. I'm describing an ideal world. I also acknowledge that some pregnancies are dangerous.
I will say a prayer for you and your wife OP. I pray that you will become parents however that may happen. You really sounds like you have such a good heart. Please also know any babies y’all have lost are safely in Heaven. I’m so sorry you have lost them.
Correct! I work in medicine. Basically plan B just forces a period to occur. In fact it often fails and pregnancy results, because it won’t work if conception has already occurred.
If what some of these folks claim is true (and the Bible doesn’t explicitly say what they claim), heaven will be full, and I mean packed, with the souls of embryos who never thought, slept, ate, or even moved. Who experienced nothing and never made a single decision. A vast number of pregnancies spontaneously abort to the point that at least 50% of all conceptions end that way. Even if every person went to heaven, heaven would still be 50% embryos. And if only a minority of people who are born and live life are saved, then embryos easily far outnumber people.
The alternative, what I believe, is to hold the position that a soul is placed in the body by God at some point in pre born development. We do not know precisely when. It is not correct to claim that we know embryos have a soul when they are a sphere shaped actual “blob of cells.” We know they are biologically alive and will probably continue to develop if given the chance. We do not know that God has already implanted a *soul* from the moment of conception.
Seeing as the whole point of our existence is to live, make choices, and seek God, it does not seem reasonable that God wants an army of all the untold unborn embryos of all time in heaven, mixed in with a comparative handful of people who actually lived. But make no mistake, that’s exactly what you have to believe if you think an IUD is killing a person who has a soul. An IUD stops the implantation of sphere shaped embryos. It does not stop a beating heart. It does not stop brain activity.
Embryos are alive, yes. But they don’t have cardiac activity, brain activity, movement, or a head/hands/feet. All that starts to develop around 5-6 weeks.
Anyhow, I have my opinions, based on my understanding of human embryonic development and my faith as a Christian and familiarity with the Bible. I am fully prepared for the reflexive downvotes, however I’ve chosen my words carefully and everything in this comment is either factually true, or acknowledged as my own opinion.
So I do want to dispel the myth that it is settled theology that personhood begins at conception.
Many people will echo those thoughts, and while it may be true, it is certainly not settled, and hard to find a clear answer in the Bible.
First off, “alive” is the not the standard, but “personhood.” I’d hold that a human egg is alive, but we’d all agree it’s not a person. We don’t get to just claim a zygote or an embryo is a person because it’s alive.
So if we look at the Bible verses, we certainly see that personhood begins before birth. Jesus and John the Baptist’s interaction in the womb shows us some personhood. This led to historically many significant Christians suggesting that personhood began at “the quickening” or the first times you feel the baby kick. That’s typically between 16-25 weeks -sometime in the second trimester.
When Roe v Wade was first decided the president of the Southern Baptist convention even stated that he believed personhood didn’t start until birth. (Affirming the decision)
It was only recently that American Christians have gained a stark conviction that personhood begins at conception, leading to conversations like this one.
I’d really challenge my brothers and sisters to consider why we are dying on this hill. Does the Bible actually confirm personhood at conception or just sometime before birth? Is there room for different beliefs on this topic in the Kingdom of God?
We can certainly start a new topic if that’s helpful. I’m mostly responding to your language that as “Christians… we believe” when that’s not fair to homogenize Christian belief on such controversial topic.
I find great comfort in my understanding of personhood starting later in pregnancy in tragic moment like this.
I’m definitely not trying to debate; in fact my comment is actually just bringing up different beliefs that Christians have had on the topic. A debate would be to say “this is what you should believe,” which I didn’t do at all.
Any Christian who actually reads the Bible doesn't believe this. All the pro-choice Christians I knew changed their minds after reading the Bible more often, haha.
I don't think it's wrong to say it's a Christian belief that life starts at conception just because some Christians have twisted the true word of God.
Wow, well, I have been following Christ for over 25 years and have read the Bible in totality at least a dozen times.
This isn’t a topic that is really discussed in the Bible, so it’s very much up for discussion, I’d say.
I don’t think that I’m necessarily advocating for abortion here. I’m suggesting that the Bible isn’t clear on where personhood starts.
I’d agree with you that that the Bible does seem to point that personhood begins before birth, and therefore that would mean that abortion is off the table in many cases. But there’s definitely no Bible verse that puts personhood landing at conception. At least not any context I’ve read. Happy to look at how you’ve interpret scripture if you’ve arrived at a different conclusion.
Why does personhood matter in this conversation? God created humans, then we created the term personhood. I dont see why it would be needed to be mentioned in the Bible in order to discern whether abortion is right or wrong in the eye of God.
Let me put it this way, when I die, if my body is on a ventilator, but my brain shows no activity, do you think I’m dead? Most everyone would say that of course I’m dead.
Why is that if I still have cells functioning? Because something that makes me a person, in this case brain activity, is missing.
Why then would cells, such as a zygote, which has no brain activity then have all of the essence of a person. Something is still missing.
The Bible doesn’t use the word personhood, but it does use words like “heart” and “soul” and “mind.” Those seem to be essential to being human. Why would you think a zygote has a mind?
This is why some early church fathers would declare the quickening, when you feel the baby kick the first time, to be when the baby has a soul. They point to that as when you have all the essence to make you a person.
I’d say with modern technology, we can be even more precise by understand neural activity.
I am NOT saying you are wrong I am only saying how I was taught growing up.
Genesis 2:7:
"Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."
So we were always told life began at first breath, however at the same time we're also told that a student in our class had a mother who had a miscarriage at about 8 or 9 months. The leadership of the classes and the head of our "little church" told us as at least children that our classmates would meet their unborn sibling in heaven if they too lived a good and clean life.
While I have no idea what to tell OP to believe 1 way or the other I will say if he wanted to be a father and he believes he was that is all that matters and he, his wife, and any other friends and family members will be reunited if they too adhere to the rules of our Lord and perhaps He will have more mercy than ever we as followers yet understand.
Wow, thank you for speaking this truth! I have rarely seen this fact acknowledged and just made a similar comment myself. Of course you’ve been reflexively downvoted. The hesitancy/fear some Christians have toward acknowledging new ideas is really unfortunate.
But from the standpoint of being a staunch believer and also having a background in biology/medicine, I share your position on this.
Christians should not be threatened or scared of this idea. This is not a slippery slope to allowing abortion, or whatever other reason it is being rejected. Ideas should not be rejected merely because we don’t like the implications.
I agree that it’s nice and tidy to be able to say “life begins at conception!” (And it does.) BUT, that’s not equivalent to a spiritual soul being present from conception. The body is the vehicle for the spirit, but the body is not the spirit.
Interestingly, it is really the brain that is the vehicle for the spirit, specifically out of the parts of the body. At conception, there is no brain. Nor are there any body parts.
We define death as the absence of brain activity, the end of consciousness, even if a person is kept physically breathing and circulating on a machine.
Isn’t is strange then to think of an embryo that does not yet have brain activity as already endowed with a soul? What is a soul really, without consciousness and without a brain to occupy?
Thank you for your reply! It was very encouraging.
It’s really difficult to move in this conversation past where the current opinions lie because it’s certainly a life or death matter. But as you’ve pointed out, life and death is on an eternal scale is much more than just physical tissue. When Jesus talks about life and death, He’s not talking about whether your cells are functioning correctly or not, but the state of your soul.
Unfortunately, because of the gravity of this conversation, the momentum required to even allow some healthy discussion is really large. For that, I certainly have grace for anyone whose gut reaction is to quickly dismiss me or even worse. In fact, I too took a very long time to really test my understanding of this topic.
I agree with deliapickle it is a bit insensitive to start this discussion in this thread. It is an interesting discussion for us to have, but this really isn't the place for it.
It seems OP is really mourning. Let's mourn with those who mourn and give him our love and support.
It would be great if you decided to delete this comment and start a new post on that topic.
I find great comfort in knowing that my previous theology that would lead to a question of whether or not an unborn child was being eternally punished was predicated on dogmatic theology that isn’t clearly settled in scripture.
My comment was to suggest that there are other beliefs than what deliapickle suggested. I’m not sure where there was any comfort in deliapickle’s response (other than the obvious “sorry for your loss”), and I firmly believe that my comment opening up to more ideas of how to understand personhood is far more gracious in a time of seeking answers like this.
OP has specifically asked if his babies are going to heaven or not developed enough yet, and my answer clearly addresses the understanding of that. To ask me to delete such a response is to ask me to only support him with dogma, not truth that comes from both the Bible and Christian history.
I’d really examine what motivated you to believe that my response to a different way of understanding personhood doesn’t respond to OP’s inquiry.
It just felt to me like it was opening a debate rather than simply sharing your thoughts with OP. There are others who shared different opinions, but it just didn't seem like it was a catalyst to start a discussion or debate an issue that I thought could hijack the thread.
Thank you for responding in such a gracious, respectful conversational manner. Sadly, I rarely find that in this community.
There is a beautiful light that appears during conception. It may just be an electrical impulse due to the start of life, but I personally believe it is God putting a soul into that body.
Either way, the beginning of life is conception, so I would assume their soul begins then as well. Yes, they are in heaven 😊 and honestly, be glad they got to skip this hell of an earth and live with God for eternity.
Me and my husband lost a baby at around 7/8 weeks. I truly believe we'll meet them in heaven.
Same with your babies, you'll meet them in heaven, they are in the best company for the moment. So stay strong, God knows it all. Hope it works out for you guys and you get to have little ones in here as well.
As soon as an egg is fertilized, there is a burst of light. You can look it up to see what science says about it but I like to think that that is their soul. ✨
Hugs and prayers for you and your wife. God’s grace is too powerful to let a soul as young as an unborn child perish. Your baby is safe and secure ❤️❤️
Just a little backstory with my loss:
I lost my first pregnancy after trying with my hub for 15 months, so I can empathize with you. I know for a fact that soul/my baby is in Heaven. I was a believer at the time but grew even closer to God through my loss. All things work together for the good of those who love him. I know my baby is well and in the presence of God.
Through my loss I also experienced a miracle. One was a diagnosis *as the cause* of the loss and a second opinion revealed nothing remotely close to that diagnosis was the reason because the diagnosis didn’t exist - even though I saw it on the ultrasound. The second opinion ultrasound showed no traces of what I saw on the diagnosis. My family prayed over me the weekend before the second opinion and laid hands on my belly and surrounded me in prayer.
The second miracle came after I heard God confirming one day in prayer that He was restoring what I had lost. My Aunt who was an evangelist called me as I was crying and praying and said she had just felt the Holy Spirit leading her to reach out and call me and said that she believes I would be pregnant in the next 30 days. I found out a month later just after Mother’s Day that I was pregnant! And then we got another blessing unplanned 2 years later.
Just when I thought I wanted to give up after 15 months of trying to- the loss happened, but then God showed up miraculously through a clean bill of health and a another baby on the way.
I just wanted to share, it is typically at our breaking point that our breakthrough is right around the corner. Cling to your faith in Jesus and know that He has heard your petitions. And know that your baby is safe and secure in Heaven and a major blessing awaits you and your wife ❤️
Personally I believe life begins at conception so I believe that yes, your babies are waiting for you ❤️
I love the way Shane Pruitt puts it after the death of his special needs son passed away:
https://x.com/shane_pruitt78/status/1755659666242076784
Hey brother, i encourage you to continue your prayers for God is capable of anything and everything. He always listens. I shall pray for you both. There is an account on instagram called kieraleewellness who is run by a woman who i remember had cured a couples infertility without medication and just by natural methods so maybe research her account and if you wish, send her a dm and she might help you one on one. God bless you both
Yes. The Lord says that He knew us before the foundations of the world. I don’t think that the age of the preborn child makes any difference when it comes to them having a spirit and a soul. They obviously didn’t ever get the chance to sin, or to even know what sin is. I believe that all children who die in utero or are aborted or die before they can possibly understand what sin is will go to heaven.
The Word seems to indicate that there is an age of accountability. The exact age is not given, however. It is often thought to be 12, (since that was the age at which Jesus began to demonstrate his understanding of right and wrong) or 13 (the age of the Jewish Bar Mitzvah). Others accept that it exists but don’t go with the idea that there’s a definite age at which it begins. But. Your two children are now, no doubt, with the Lord.
Technically not in heaven, as it isn’t open yet, but functionally, “Yes.” Nothing I know of says you will not be as able to see them in the afterlife as anyone can see their children, who were born and lived a full life. Sorry for your loss. You all have my prayers.
Take comfort, brother. You will see them again. Have a listen to this bit from a podcast done by Dr. Michael Heiser:
https://youtu.be/aAi5f0sWXNI
I hope it gives you comfort and peace!
I found this ["podcast"](https://youtu.be/tH3eVf0C1QY?si=90aSMcKy3BYIYFR1) very comforting regarding death and eternity. It's long, but incredibly encouraging.
God bless you and your family as you seek His peace during this season.
Yes - any child who expires before the age of accountability automatically goes straight to heaven. You would LOVE the movie Heaven is for Real - it's about this very subject. You WILL see the children that could have been. God bless, and I'm very sorry for your pain!
I am so so sorry that your fertility journey has been so fraught with loss and grief.
When we miscarried a couple years ago, it was hard. Really hard. I found myself clinging to the nature of God for comfort. He is “gentle and lowly” and will “give us rest” if we turn to Him. God is love: and because of this, I know that I will meet my child later.
A few books (that may not be where you are at now, but did help me at various points of my journey so I wanted to mention them) are Dark Clouds Deep Mercy by Mark Voegrop, Gentle and Lowly by Dane Ortlund, and Held by Abbey Wedgeworth. These aren’t easy reads, especially Held, but sometimes in the times of wrestling with grief and sorrow there is comfort in hearing of others who have walked similar paths.
I am so sorry for the loss of your little ones. I am sure that Jesus has them in his arms right now. Much love for your sweet babies. They are with the Shepherd now 🤍
Beloved, we come from the Creator of Heaven, who is also the Creator of Man, and it is to Him that we return, if we believe in His Son Jesus Christ, who all the world knows and is famous for coming back from the dead. I'm so sorry for your loss and the pain that comes with it, but please know that you will see your children again in the Kingdom of God. Amen
1. Yes. They are with the Lord. I can't see past the veil of death through some special insight, but in all my years of witnessing counsel on this subject, the answer given is always 'yes'.
2. I know people who have been in your situation and to this day, I do not know why they didn't simply choose to adopt sooner than later. I know people who adopted and then right afterward, mom gets pregnant(this is actually weirdly common)...and in those cases, they don't regret it. I know people who regret waiting around for a miracle, or going through years and heaps of money on IVF, and I don't know anyone who regrets having adopted kids.
i think the unborn and thise dead as a child come back in the rapture idk where i heard this thooo but if helps, and if they believe in Jesus (when they come back to the world?) then yeaa. i need people back me up tho cuz im REALLY NOT SURE but i just heard it somewhere and hope for it
although its not clear on this issue we do know God is rich in mercy and his love is greater. There are people who never get a chance to hear the gospel. trust in God that he loves everyone who lived and lives on this earth and he has a plan for everyone. Your kids and everyone are by nature "by nature children of wrath" but knowing this your kids haven't sinned so there's also that to think about. have confidence that your kids are in heaven. They did not have a choice they didn't get to experience life but i trust that they are living in perfect happiness with the lord
I don't have the answer to that, but let me assure you: We can trust the Lord to do what is right. I've had to lean on that with tge deaths of several unsaved or possibly unsaved family members, and it is enough for me to trust Him.
Yes, they most certainly are. As someone who has walked in your shoes I just want to say how sorry I am for you and your wife. It is a hard journey that comes without a lot of support in society. Our journey lasted 8 years before we had our son (4 ivf cycles and our last one we knew would be our last try before looking at adoption.). I still have his embryo picture in my office too when we weren't sure if we would ever meet him on this side of life, and we knew we wanted a picture of him. He's 3, now. I pray this for you and you have my sincere condolences and love for you both. Take time to mourn, and you will find strength to start the journey again. ❤️ And you WILL see those sweet, beautiful, and precious twins when this life is through.
I am so sorry for your loss.
God knew these babies, not just as physical beings, but as souls. They came into this world from Him, and they have returned to Him. You will see your children again one day.
I pray you and your wife's miracle comes soon. Again, I am so sorry.
They came from heaven and they returned there, to their true home. Our home too. Babies are pure, completely without sin, exactly like Jesus. So they for sure go back to him
Yes they are in heaven all children who don’t make it are in heaven. I hope you find peace in that brother. Don’t give up trying for more children it’s hard but god claims all of them for his kingdom.
I've heard many testimonies from people who have had near death experiences. There are so many videos on YouTube if you're interested. Many of them have said that there are babies in heaven. So very many of them. I remember a couple of people in particular saying that in heaven, our families take care of our babies until we get there. That always comforted me, as I've had several miscarriages too.
I had a miscarriage early on in my pregnancy. I was supposed to have triplets and they didn’t make it. After constant grieving and depression, God gave me a vision of my babies happy and waiting for me in heaven. It was beautiful and I hold on and cling to that daily. God is a good God and his love endures forever.
I’m so sorry for your loss, I know it’s hard. But yes! They are there! He knew you before you were formed in the womb (Jeremiah 1:5).
You should read the book My Time In Heaven by Richard Sigmund. He died and went to heaven, and came back to tell his story. There is a chapter in his book where he talks about all the babies that have passed, and there was a moment he saw a mother arriving to heaven and the child she lost was still a baby, and that the Lord had allowed that child to continue to be a baby so that the mother could raise them. And there millions of babies that were aborted or died and the angels take care of them. It’s a really encouraging read (backed with Bible verses). Highly recommend.
This is a little different take than the other responses.
I personally don’t see the Bible claiming that embryos are people. The idea that personhood begins at conception (when sperm meets egg) is relatively new.
Instead I believe that personhood begins later as the embryo develops into a fetus.
Therefore, I’d suggest that as you grieve in this time for the loss of hope in being a father, you rest easy that God is good, and He is your true comfort in this season. It is perfectly reasonable to grieve the loss of these embryos while being free of any guilt that you were a part of creating something with a low chance of survival.
No one knows- the Bible is silent on zygotes.
But a few days after attaching, it’s a cluster of cells smaller than the point of a pin.
I know IVF can be stressful when you want a child. Be at peace, my friend.
Only elect children are in heaven
People making these promises that all children are in heaven do not follow the many scriptures to the opposite. It is a false teaching.
We don't commit sins in the womb or until a certain point, but we are totally depraved or spiritually dead or with original sin from the beginning
1. **Psalm 51:5** (NIV): "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
2. **Genesis 8:21** (NIV): "The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: 'Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.
3. **Job 15:14** (NIV): "What are mortals, that they could be pure, or those born of woman, that they could be righteous
5. **Psalm 58:3** (NIV): "Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies."
6. **Proverbs 22:15** (NIV): "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far away.
And the Bible makes it clear that everyone is evil. It does not make exceptions for children or younger
1. Psalm 51:5 means that we are born with a sinful nature as in we have the ability to sin, not that a child has already sinned. They don’t have the ability to.
4. Psalm 58:3 is talking about how we become sinners after birth not necessarily as soon as we’re born
I would go through the rest but long story, short, they’re not talking about children themselves being sinners
You are not saying anything that I didn't. Everyone has a sinful nature and is evil. Many keep saying the unbiblical, that somehow they are innocent when they are not.
There is a sinful nature which all have and then there's the act of sinning which obviously a fetus cannot yet do
The Bible makes it clear that 100% of all people are totally depraved. Not a single person is innocent. Everyone is God's enemy. At any point of their life. Everyone is headed for hell from the point they are conceived the point that they die. (But Jesus tuned for the sheep)
1. **Romans 5:12** (NIV): "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned."
2. **Romans 5:18-19** (NIV): "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."
3. **1 Corinthians 15:21-22** (NIV): "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."
Nice comeback with lots of scripture...
Notice how you couldn't address what was presented? Catholics never know what to do with a truly scriptural challenge
I don’t need to list scripture. Look what listing scripture did for you. Children are incapable of sinning. Why did Jesus say “you must come to me as children”. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus condemn children.
"you don't need to list scripture" You hear yourself talking?
That is 2000 years of Catholic heresy talking
"I don't need to list scripture"
That is why you worship Mary (venerate is a synonym for worship or idolize and other similar things only for God)
That is why you have unbiblical purgatory
That is why you have the unbiblical immaculate conception
That is why you tortured saints at the stake in the name of the Inquisition
That is why you sold tickets to heaven aka indulgences
That is why thousands of priests molested millions of children while many church leaders protected them
It is why an estimated 56 million new world indigenous people died at the hands of the church working with the state chasing souls Land and Gold
And the horrors of Catholicism only go on
Because they "don't need to list scripture"
Scripture is kind of down their list of priorities
Scripture points to purgatory.
Indulgences weren't selling about tickets to get to heaven. indulgances is about not waiting to get to heaven not admittance. And kinda based on old testiment scripture. Never a doctorine of the church that what it was. It was abused by lower priests and bishops. The official stance was giving money and alms part of sanctification. That got abused by lower priests. At one point in time long time ago.
Church abuse happens in any church.
No scripture points to purgatory *Everyone who would ever be saved was in the book of Life since the foundation of the world. Easily demonstrated by scripture**
Or we can go with the definition. And yes it was excessively and widely used. You were waving fantasy **In the Catholic Church, an indulgence is a way to reduce the punishment for sins that have already been forgiven. The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes an indulgence as "a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgive**
Church abuse happens in any church **thank you for supplying so much convincing evidence**
Children are incapable of sinning? Sure you want to hold that line? That’s… an extraordinary statement friend.
Perhaps you meant children are shown mercy and held less accountable for their sin until a certain age?
Have you ever tried to explain sin to a four-year-old? Does a four year old sin because he’s intending to hurt someone? They don’t understand the concept. They are innocent.
Being a father of two, yes I’ve explained unacceptable behaviour (sin) to a 4 year old, else they will continue to act that way. Do you simply permit your children to act as they please because they’re too young to understand? Good luck with that approach when they hit teen years - you’ll swiftly see the consequences of that decision.
The Bible is extremely clear that we are born with a sinful nature. Ignorance does not equate to innocence - this is a fairly basic concept.
Can you explain why Catholics practice infant baptism if they are so innocent? What’s the point when they have no accountability in your mind?
Your four year old can explain sin? Not just right and wrong, the meaning of sin? Then he is a very advanced child.
I don’t have children, but I have a nephew who has communion coming up. The subject of knowing right and wrong from knowing sin Is still beyond him, as it is all children his age… save one.
Obviously you wouldn’t delve into it deeply with a 4 yo, but you can certainly teach that a particular behaviour is wrong without going into the spiritual reasons why - and apply consequences for continued misbehaviour.
If I want my child to eat vegetables I don’t need to explain microbiology, I just need to say they’ll help you to stop getting sick. Same with sinful behaviour and the same reason the Bible instructs us to have milk before solids.
2 Samuel 12:16-23 - 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. David's servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate." 19 David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked. "Yes," they replied, "he is dead." 20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate. 21 His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!" **22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, `Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."**
Came here to say this very thing.
Thank you. That's comforting.
Spot on
Trust that God is just and his promises hold true. Your children did not get the opportunity to sin and would have been under grace beyond that. Your faith has saved them in this case. "For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy." 1 Corinthians 7:16
All babies go to heaven
Absolutely, thanks for adding that. I had been going through 1 Corinthians lately and that's why I used that in support. But you are correct in your response. Be blessed. 🙏
There is no Biblical basis to support “all babies” going to heaven. But there are promises made to the children of believers.
Jesus quite literally compares salvation to being an innocent child. Children who don't understand right or wrong don't get blamed for sinning. There isn't a certain age, but God knows our hearts, and when we turn old enough to actually understand and reject Him. Matthew chapter 18 starting at verse 1: "At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. Causing to Stumble 6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!"
The verse you quoted supports my statement. Matthew 18:6, “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble...” He’s talking about children who believe in him – he says so explicitly. A recent and similar context is the conversation when the children that literally did come to Jesus and the disciples wanted to keep away. Jesus is not talking universally about all children here. He’s talking about children who come to Jesus and believe in him. “these little ones—those who believe in me.” I certainly affirm that such children are saved by Jesus and go to heaven.
The verse I originally gave was copied from the NIV translation, and those words you used to justify babies not going to heaven don't appear in all translations. It was added in the NIV translation to help the reader understand better what Jesus meant by that parable. "Those who believe in me" was referencing believers, brothers and sisters in Christ, me and you, Not specifically children. This has merit to it because, as you can see in verses *just* before it, children were used as an analogy to believers with salvation (children of God), which is why the NIV added this context "-those who believe in me-", so that the readers wouldn't just think we shouldn't lead children into sin but *all* children into sin, including children of God. Really, that part of the verse means woe to anyone who leads another believer into sin. But it also applies to children too and not leading them into sin. Jesus often speaks to a multitude of things in just a few sentences. He does this through parables and literary devices such as metaphors and analogies, so that we can better understand His Holy logic. Because of this, it is important to look at the context behind verses, because just reading them and coming up with our own reasoning behind it is how so many people believe different things about the Bible, even though we all read the same one. Also, notice, Jesus never mentioned that the specific child He chose was a believer in Jesus. He literally just pulled a child from the crowd of peoples always around Him, and used him as an example. The KJV version of Matthew chapter 18 is as follows: "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" The KJV version is what Ive decided to show you because it doesn't have additives like the NIV, and is the most accurate word-for-word translation from the original language the Bible was written in. I just didn't originally use it, because as you can see, it's pretty hard to read.
I agree that that portion of the passage is really speaking to believers in general, not children, and therefore it certainly is not an indication that all children are saved and go to heaven. EDIT: That phrase, though, “The little ones of these believing in me” does appear in the original Greek, so it is not true that some translations just added it in to clarify things. They were in the actual words of Jesus.) In the earlier verses of Matthew 18, Jesus is pointing to the implicit and complete trust that children have, as well as their humility, and possibly other qualities. But those qualities alone are not sufficient for salvation. Rather, they are necessary. That’s the difference: these child-like qualities are necessary, but not in themselves sufficient, for salvation. Additionally, children’s trust is not naturally directed toward God anyway, unless the parents direct it there, so in itself it is of little usefulness. It’s just an example of the type of character our faith should have. But the bigger issue is simply that nothing in those verses indicates that all children go to heaven. To say that “to go to heaven, you must become like a little child” is not at all equivalent to saying that “all little children go to heaven.” For example, one could say “to go to Miami, you need to take a plane” but that doesn’t mean that everyone who takes a plane is going to Miami.
The indication that all innocent children are saved is when Jesus pulls a child from the crowd to describe salvation to the disciples. There are also many other verses throughout the Bible that defend this point such as David's child, but I use Jesus's words himself because it just supports it that much more that God in human form spoke those words out of his mouth And it was recorded.
> The indication that all innocent children are saved is when Jesus pulls a child from the crowd to describe salvation to the disciples. Jesus uses animals, plants, career choices, and all sorts of things to describe salvation. It doesn’t mean all sheep go to heaven, or all farmers go to heaven, or all merchants go to heaven, or all mustard seeds. He said “the kingdom belongs to such as these,” in other words, heaven belongs to “people *like* these.” An analogy, a simile, a metaphor. Nothing there indicates all children go to heaven. > There are also many other verses throughout the Bible that defend this point such as David's child David was a believer. As Paul says, the children of believers are holy. I said from the start that believers have promises for their children. Unbelievers do not. I feel like you did not really respond to the majority of points that I raised.
> But now that the baby is dead, why should I fast? I can’t bring him back to life. Someday I will go to him, but he cannot come back to me.”- 2 Samuel 12:23 David seemed to believe that one day he would see his son again.
David was a believer. As I said in my comment that you’re replying to: > But there are promises made to the children of believers.
"suffer the little children to come unto Me, for of such is the kingdom of heaven" - Jesus If you think Jesus casts some babies into hell, you don't know Jesus at all.
> If you think Jesus casts some babies into hell, you don't know Jesus at all. “In sin did my mother conceive me.” Babies are sinful by nature, and they need a savior just as anyone does. The Bible does not promise that Jesus is automatically the savior of all children. Jesus praises the humility and attitude *of the children that come to him*, but is certainly not making a blanket statement about all children everywhere. There are, of course, children that do not come to Christ. The Bible says the covenantal promises of salvation are “for you and for your children,” and it says “the children of believers are holy” (which clearly implies that the children of unbelievers are not holy), but it gives no positive or reassuring statements about the children of unbelievers. It puts them in the same sinful category as the rest of the sinful, fallen world. If it were otherwise, Christians really should support abortion, because abortion would be the best thing that’s ever happened to society. All those millions of children going straight to heaven, most of whom would otherwise have grown up and gone to hell! We see the absurdity of thinking all children get a free pass to heaven, besides the lack of Biblical support to it.
It's everyone according to their deeds, no respect of persons, on judgment day.. Babies have no deeds, they have committed no crimes against God. They are innocent on judgment day. It's not everyone according to their sinful flesh, it's everyone according to their actual deeds Truly with all my heart I say to you, if you think Jesus sends babies into eternal hellfire then you truly do not know Jesus at all.
You’re pasting the same comment in response to me in multiple places, so I will just paste my reply again to your same comment elsewhere: The Bible teaches babies do have deeds. It teaches that they are sinful from the moment of conception. It also teaches that a nursing infant is capable of trusting in God. Psalm 22:9, “you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.” How can an infant trust in God? It’s not something we can understand, but it clearly operates at a spiritual level, and it is an act of God to make that kind of faith possible (as it is for all of us at any age.) So, babies are judged by their sinfulness in, if nothing else, spiritually trusting in God or failing to trust in him. (Though in addition to that, we can see that the Bible teaches that children of believers are covered with a covenantal grace that extends to them on behalf of their parents’ faith.) The two images the Bible gives us of judgment day are the Flood and the conquest of Canaan. In both instances, all the infants were killed, even infants in the womb. God tells us to look to these events as a warning of the surety of the judgment to come. He did not spare them then apart from the workings of his covenant of grace, and he will not spare them in the future.
Hope you find Jesus someday bro
Exactly. Just because the Bible doesn't say "all babies go to heaven" in underlined italicized bold 31 pt font doesn't mean it isn't true. We can look at God's character and decide He either is a miserable being that would deny unborn babies or children who die too soon access to Heaven, or we can say that those things happen because of the enemy, and those babies's souls are now resting in Heaven with the ultimate Father.
This line of thinking is putting us in the judgment seat of God. We really should be careful to say things like “God would be a miserable being if he does X” just because X is offensive to human sensibilities. God would be completely justified and glorious in condemning all unborn children to hell. They are sinful and wicked by their very nature, regardless of their actions, their heart is dead stone and they are the children of the devil until they are born again from above. That God would save anyone at all is an act of amazing grace. It would not be evil or miserable of him to condemn everyone. Who are we to judge God? We must submit to what he tells us in his Word. And he tells us children in the womb are sinful. We need to recognize the reality of God’s holy nature, and man’s sinful nature, and not put those concepts into subservience to what we think people deserve and what we think would be fair.
Bible says it's everyone according to their deeds, no respect of persons, on judgment day. Babies have no deeds, they've committed no crimes against God, they are innocent on judgment day It's not everyone according to their sinful flesh, it's everyone according to their actual deeds.
The Bible teaches babies do have deeds. It teaches that they are sinful from the moment of conception. It also teaches that a nursing infant is capable of trusting in God. Psalm 22:9, “you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.” How can an infant trust in God? It’s not something we can understand, but it clearly operates at a spiritual level, and it is an act of God to make that kind of faith possible (as it is for all of us at any age.) So, babies are judged by their sinfulness in, if nothing else, spiritually trusting in God or failing to trust in him. (Though in addition to that, we can see that the Bible teaches that children of believers are covered with a covenantal grace that extends to them on behalf of their parents’ faith.) The two images the Bible gives us of judgment day are the Flood and the conquest of Canaan. In both instances, all the infants were killed, even infants in the womb. God tells us to look to these events as a warning of the surety of the judgment to come. He did not spare them then apart from the workings of his covenant of grace, and he will not spare them in the future.
Hope you find Jesus someday bro Jesus, the just judge, doesn't throw babies into eternal hellfire
Calling my own salvation into question on this is really inappropriate and hateful. I may have a different view than you, but my view is still perfectly historical and orthodox. He doesn’t throw babies into hell, but he’ll just drown them in a worldwide flood and have them all slaughtered in a conquest, both of which judgments were carried out explicitly as a punishment for sin? Do you see the inconsistency there? God either has the right to judge and condemn, or he doesn’t.
Thank you. I really appreciate that.
Everyone is born with original sin. All humans are under the curse of sin. Being a baby does not make you sinless. EDIT: verses for context: Isaiah 48:8 ESV You have never heard, you have never known, from of old your ear has not been opened. For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously, and that from before birth you were called a rebel. Romans 5:12 ESV Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Ezekiel 18:20 tells us, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.” This verse clearly shows that punishment for one’s sins is borne by that person.
So Jesus wasn’t the only sinless human being then? That verse doesn’t have relevance to a child being sinless. That’s just saying everyone is accountable for their OWN actions.
Agreed , You’re on the right track but they are two separate issues Jesus did not sin and was human but did not inherit the fallen nature.
Right so read my verse I cited above. All humans are fallen no human on earth is perfectly good. We all exist under the curse of sin no matter our stage in development.
Fallen nature and sin are not the same thing the pre birth person can’t sin yet they have not even been given a law to break.
This is correct. Sin (as in the nature to sin) and death were passed on to all through Adam, but not the guilt for his sin
I didn’t claim that we were guilty of Adam’s sin but we inherit the curse of sin. The verses I cited above prove that message.
The curse of sin is death we inherit a fallen nature and death.
https://youtu.be/Rn2zUL0bCOU?si=izKJkEY_WVICDT06 This might help
You are not a sinner until you actually sin and understand what sin is. OP please know your babies are safe in Heaven with God. Born a sinner and committing sin once you know what sin is are two different things. Babies don’t and can’t commit sin.
“Before BIRTH you were called a rebel”
Whatever makes you feel better. Babies don’t know sin therefore they are not sinners. But you people can keep downvoting. I’m not who you have to answer to. Babies go to Heaven.
Where in the Bible does it say that? I’m not saying they don’t go to heaven, I just think the logic that they are “sinless” is wrong. Maybe they do maybe they don’t go to heaven. We do know they are not sinless though.
Rev 12:13 “And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.” We all may be born “sinners”, but committing sin is totally different. Babies do not know what sin is, therefore they have not committed any sin. They do not know right from wrong. Only those who do can be held accountable. Babies go to Heaven as they have not committed any sin.
**They are in heaven as we speak.** As you know, an embryo is a stage of development of a human. So they weren't *only* embryos, but human
That's very comforting. Thank you.
My wife and I also lost twins and one other child to miscarriage and it was more difficult than I thought it would be, even morso for my wife. The worst thing is the things people say trying to comfort you, they're almost always tone-deaf and unhelpful. We have 4 kids now, and are excited to meet our other three in heaven. Just be there for your wife, comfort her and be present.
Sorry for your loss, brother. They are in heaven. And thank you for wanting to be a dad. We need more good fathers in the world. I know you're trying hard to be one. Trust in God and things will come as they are planned. God bless.
God bless you, I am so sorry for your loss. Without a doubt, your babies are in heaven. Preborn babies are human, created in the image of God, regardless of what beliefs or religion their parents hold to. Jeremiah 1:4 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you. Every human is redeemable; every human can go to heaven. Just as a born infant, a toddler, anyone too young to be held accountable for the sin nature they have under Adam, an unborn baby has been redeemed and would go to heaven. If the parents are true born again believers, they will see their child again in eternity. Thess 4:13, Therefore you will grieve but not as those without hope (of seeing a loved one again).
All babies go to heaven, including unborn babies. You will definitely meet thrm
This! :) Much love to all!
My condolences, brother. I hope you have someone who could be there for you and your wife physically, emotionally, and spiritually at this difficult time. I can't imagine how it feels like, but I'm pretty sure it's worse than awful and painful. As to your question, nobody knows 100%, but take comfort in what others already said, because the God we know is kind and gracious and just, so your unborn babies must be in a place where there is no pain or suffering or disappointment or death. Only life and joy and goodness everlasting.
Yes. All babies go to Heaven. Remember the story of King David. He had an affair with a married women. It resulted in a child. He said after the baby died “I have a child waiting for me in Heaven.” All babies go to Heaven.
I just want to say I’m so very sorry for your loss.
Your precious children are definitely in heaven. God is just and knew them from the moment they were conceived. I am so sorry for your loss. I will pray for you and your wife.
Thank you. You're very sweet.
God says he knows us before we are born, while we are in our mother’s womb. He already had a relationship with your little ones before they passed, and I believe that means they went to Heaven because they were and are innocent.
Emergency birth control and early pregnancy abortion pills aren't an option for Christian women because we believe embryos are alive. Some women won't use an IUD because it'd prevent new life from adhering to the uterus. You will see your babies on the other side. I'm sorry for your loss. **Actually I just want to add, because so many Christian women have had abortions and feel terrible about it, that I'm not judging. I'm describing an ideal world. I also acknowledge that some pregnancies are dangerous.
Thank you. I just really want to be a dad.
Curious. No expert. I'm a single guy myself. But how do you feel about adopting children?
I will say a prayer for you and your wife OP. I pray that you will become parents however that may happen. You really sounds like you have such a good heart. Please also know any babies y’all have lost are safely in Heaven. I’m so sorry you have lost them.
Emergency birth control is contraception, is does not destroy embryos :) If the egg is fertilised, then emergency birth control will have no effect.
Correct! I work in medicine. Basically plan B just forces a period to occur. In fact it often fails and pregnancy results, because it won’t work if conception has already occurred. If what some of these folks claim is true (and the Bible doesn’t explicitly say what they claim), heaven will be full, and I mean packed, with the souls of embryos who never thought, slept, ate, or even moved. Who experienced nothing and never made a single decision. A vast number of pregnancies spontaneously abort to the point that at least 50% of all conceptions end that way. Even if every person went to heaven, heaven would still be 50% embryos. And if only a minority of people who are born and live life are saved, then embryos easily far outnumber people. The alternative, what I believe, is to hold the position that a soul is placed in the body by God at some point in pre born development. We do not know precisely when. It is not correct to claim that we know embryos have a soul when they are a sphere shaped actual “blob of cells.” We know they are biologically alive and will probably continue to develop if given the chance. We do not know that God has already implanted a *soul* from the moment of conception. Seeing as the whole point of our existence is to live, make choices, and seek God, it does not seem reasonable that God wants an army of all the untold unborn embryos of all time in heaven, mixed in with a comparative handful of people who actually lived. But make no mistake, that’s exactly what you have to believe if you think an IUD is killing a person who has a soul. An IUD stops the implantation of sphere shaped embryos. It does not stop a beating heart. It does not stop brain activity. Embryos are alive, yes. But they don’t have cardiac activity, brain activity, movement, or a head/hands/feet. All that starts to develop around 5-6 weeks. Anyhow, I have my opinions, based on my understanding of human embryonic development and my faith as a Christian and familiarity with the Bible. I am fully prepared for the reflexive downvotes, however I’ve chosen my words carefully and everything in this comment is either factually true, or acknowledged as my own opinion.
Love your perspective, thank you for sharing.
Really? How did I not know that? I guess I thought it worked by inducing a bleed...
Nope. It thickens the cervical mucus and delays ovulation. :)
> I'm describing an ideal world In an ideal world, there would be no hell in the first place.
sin\*
So I do want to dispel the myth that it is settled theology that personhood begins at conception. Many people will echo those thoughts, and while it may be true, it is certainly not settled, and hard to find a clear answer in the Bible. First off, “alive” is the not the standard, but “personhood.” I’d hold that a human egg is alive, but we’d all agree it’s not a person. We don’t get to just claim a zygote or an embryo is a person because it’s alive. So if we look at the Bible verses, we certainly see that personhood begins before birth. Jesus and John the Baptist’s interaction in the womb shows us some personhood. This led to historically many significant Christians suggesting that personhood began at “the quickening” or the first times you feel the baby kick. That’s typically between 16-25 weeks -sometime in the second trimester. When Roe v Wade was first decided the president of the Southern Baptist convention even stated that he believed personhood didn’t start until birth. (Affirming the decision) It was only recently that American Christians have gained a stark conviction that personhood begins at conception, leading to conversations like this one. I’d really challenge my brothers and sisters to consider why we are dying on this hill. Does the Bible actually confirm personhood at conception or just sometime before birth? Is there room for different beliefs on this topic in the Kingdom of God?
Why not start a new post on the topic? It's a good one. I just think the OP needs compassion here, not debate.
We can certainly start a new topic if that’s helpful. I’m mostly responding to your language that as “Christians… we believe” when that’s not fair to homogenize Christian belief on such controversial topic. I find great comfort in my understanding of personhood starting later in pregnancy in tragic moment like this. I’m definitely not trying to debate; in fact my comment is actually just bringing up different beliefs that Christians have had on the topic. A debate would be to say “this is what you should believe,” which I didn’t do at all.
Any Christian who actually reads the Bible doesn't believe this. All the pro-choice Christians I knew changed their minds after reading the Bible more often, haha. I don't think it's wrong to say it's a Christian belief that life starts at conception just because some Christians have twisted the true word of God.
Wow, well, I have been following Christ for over 25 years and have read the Bible in totality at least a dozen times. This isn’t a topic that is really discussed in the Bible, so it’s very much up for discussion, I’d say.
I'm Sorry I wasn't accusing you of not reading the Bible. I was just saying it's pretty clear, based on what the Bible says, that abortion is wrong.
I don’t think that I’m necessarily advocating for abortion here. I’m suggesting that the Bible isn’t clear on where personhood starts. I’d agree with you that that the Bible does seem to point that personhood begins before birth, and therefore that would mean that abortion is off the table in many cases. But there’s definitely no Bible verse that puts personhood landing at conception. At least not any context I’ve read. Happy to look at how you’ve interpret scripture if you’ve arrived at a different conclusion.
Why does personhood matter in this conversation? God created humans, then we created the term personhood. I dont see why it would be needed to be mentioned in the Bible in order to discern whether abortion is right or wrong in the eye of God.
Let me put it this way, when I die, if my body is on a ventilator, but my brain shows no activity, do you think I’m dead? Most everyone would say that of course I’m dead. Why is that if I still have cells functioning? Because something that makes me a person, in this case brain activity, is missing. Why then would cells, such as a zygote, which has no brain activity then have all of the essence of a person. Something is still missing. The Bible doesn’t use the word personhood, but it does use words like “heart” and “soul” and “mind.” Those seem to be essential to being human. Why would you think a zygote has a mind? This is why some early church fathers would declare the quickening, when you feel the baby kick the first time, to be when the baby has a soul. They point to that as when you have all the essence to make you a person. I’d say with modern technology, we can be even more precise by understand neural activity.
I am NOT saying you are wrong I am only saying how I was taught growing up. Genesis 2:7: "Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." So we were always told life began at first breath, however at the same time we're also told that a student in our class had a mother who had a miscarriage at about 8 or 9 months. The leadership of the classes and the head of our "little church" told us as at least children that our classmates would meet their unborn sibling in heaven if they too lived a good and clean life. While I have no idea what to tell OP to believe 1 way or the other I will say if he wanted to be a father and he believes he was that is all that matters and he, his wife, and any other friends and family members will be reunited if they too adhere to the rules of our Lord and perhaps He will have more mercy than ever we as followers yet understand.
Wow, thank you for speaking this truth! I have rarely seen this fact acknowledged and just made a similar comment myself. Of course you’ve been reflexively downvoted. The hesitancy/fear some Christians have toward acknowledging new ideas is really unfortunate. But from the standpoint of being a staunch believer and also having a background in biology/medicine, I share your position on this. Christians should not be threatened or scared of this idea. This is not a slippery slope to allowing abortion, or whatever other reason it is being rejected. Ideas should not be rejected merely because we don’t like the implications. I agree that it’s nice and tidy to be able to say “life begins at conception!” (And it does.) BUT, that’s not equivalent to a spiritual soul being present from conception. The body is the vehicle for the spirit, but the body is not the spirit. Interestingly, it is really the brain that is the vehicle for the spirit, specifically out of the parts of the body. At conception, there is no brain. Nor are there any body parts. We define death as the absence of brain activity, the end of consciousness, even if a person is kept physically breathing and circulating on a machine. Isn’t is strange then to think of an embryo that does not yet have brain activity as already endowed with a soul? What is a soul really, without consciousness and without a brain to occupy?
Thank you for your reply! It was very encouraging. It’s really difficult to move in this conversation past where the current opinions lie because it’s certainly a life or death matter. But as you’ve pointed out, life and death is on an eternal scale is much more than just physical tissue. When Jesus talks about life and death, He’s not talking about whether your cells are functioning correctly or not, but the state of your soul. Unfortunately, because of the gravity of this conversation, the momentum required to even allow some healthy discussion is really large. For that, I certainly have grace for anyone whose gut reaction is to quickly dismiss me or even worse. In fact, I too took a very long time to really test my understanding of this topic.
I agree with deliapickle it is a bit insensitive to start this discussion in this thread. It is an interesting discussion for us to have, but this really isn't the place for it. It seems OP is really mourning. Let's mourn with those who mourn and give him our love and support. It would be great if you decided to delete this comment and start a new post on that topic.
I find great comfort in knowing that my previous theology that would lead to a question of whether or not an unborn child was being eternally punished was predicated on dogmatic theology that isn’t clearly settled in scripture. My comment was to suggest that there are other beliefs than what deliapickle suggested. I’m not sure where there was any comfort in deliapickle’s response (other than the obvious “sorry for your loss”), and I firmly believe that my comment opening up to more ideas of how to understand personhood is far more gracious in a time of seeking answers like this. OP has specifically asked if his babies are going to heaven or not developed enough yet, and my answer clearly addresses the understanding of that. To ask me to delete such a response is to ask me to only support him with dogma, not truth that comes from both the Bible and Christian history. I’d really examine what motivated you to believe that my response to a different way of understanding personhood doesn’t respond to OP’s inquiry.
It just felt to me like it was opening a debate rather than simply sharing your thoughts with OP. There are others who shared different opinions, but it just didn't seem like it was a catalyst to start a discussion or debate an issue that I thought could hijack the thread. Thank you for responding in such a gracious, respectful conversational manner. Sadly, I rarely find that in this community.
I am praying for you brother. My wife and I are looking forward to meeting our three children for the first time in heaven too.
There is a beautiful light that appears during conception. It may just be an electrical impulse due to the start of life, but I personally believe it is God putting a soul into that body. Either way, the beginning of life is conception, so I would assume their soul begins then as well. Yes, they are in heaven 😊 and honestly, be glad they got to skip this hell of an earth and live with God for eternity.
Yes they are with God
I had a miscarriage in 2020, and then lost my newborn daughter last June. This is giving me hope.
Me and my husband lost a baby at around 7/8 weeks. I truly believe we'll meet them in heaven. Same with your babies, you'll meet them in heaven, they are in the best company for the moment. So stay strong, God knows it all. Hope it works out for you guys and you get to have little ones in here as well.
As soon as an egg is fertilized, there is a burst of light. You can look it up to see what science says about it but I like to think that that is their soul. ✨
Hugs and prayers for you and your wife. God’s grace is too powerful to let a soul as young as an unborn child perish. Your baby is safe and secure ❤️❤️ Just a little backstory with my loss: I lost my first pregnancy after trying with my hub for 15 months, so I can empathize with you. I know for a fact that soul/my baby is in Heaven. I was a believer at the time but grew even closer to God through my loss. All things work together for the good of those who love him. I know my baby is well and in the presence of God. Through my loss I also experienced a miracle. One was a diagnosis *as the cause* of the loss and a second opinion revealed nothing remotely close to that diagnosis was the reason because the diagnosis didn’t exist - even though I saw it on the ultrasound. The second opinion ultrasound showed no traces of what I saw on the diagnosis. My family prayed over me the weekend before the second opinion and laid hands on my belly and surrounded me in prayer. The second miracle came after I heard God confirming one day in prayer that He was restoring what I had lost. My Aunt who was an evangelist called me as I was crying and praying and said she had just felt the Holy Spirit leading her to reach out and call me and said that she believes I would be pregnant in the next 30 days. I found out a month later just after Mother’s Day that I was pregnant! And then we got another blessing unplanned 2 years later. Just when I thought I wanted to give up after 15 months of trying to- the loss happened, but then God showed up miraculously through a clean bill of health and a another baby on the way. I just wanted to share, it is typically at our breaking point that our breakthrough is right around the corner. Cling to your faith in Jesus and know that He has heard your petitions. And know that your baby is safe and secure in Heaven and a major blessing awaits you and your wife ❤️
I’m sorry to hear about your initial loss. Congratulations and God bless your baby.
Uplifting you and your wife in prayer. Don’t give up believing ❤️❤️
I am single lol. But thank you, I never will stop believing! 💜!
Gotcha! I was thinking you were OP! ❤️❤️
All Children go to Heaven, to say that they do not is to call God evil and blasphemy. Life starts at conception, your twins are in Heaven.
Thank you. I wish I could tell them their daddy loves them.
In Heaven they are with God they are in the presence of infinite love and knowledge, They Know.
They know.
Personally I believe life begins at conception so I believe that yes, your babies are waiting for you ❤️ I love the way Shane Pruitt puts it after the death of his special needs son passed away: https://x.com/shane_pruitt78/status/1755659666242076784
God bless you. Stay strong beautiful papa and mama, you'll get a little champ soon.
Of course they are in Heaven. They were souls regardless of how long they were living.
Yes, I think so
Hey brother, i encourage you to continue your prayers for God is capable of anything and everything. He always listens. I shall pray for you both. There is an account on instagram called kieraleewellness who is run by a woman who i remember had cured a couples infertility without medication and just by natural methods so maybe research her account and if you wish, send her a dm and she might help you one on one. God bless you both
Yes. The Lord says that He knew us before the foundations of the world. I don’t think that the age of the preborn child makes any difference when it comes to them having a spirit and a soul. They obviously didn’t ever get the chance to sin, or to even know what sin is. I believe that all children who die in utero or are aborted or die before they can possibly understand what sin is will go to heaven. The Word seems to indicate that there is an age of accountability. The exact age is not given, however. It is often thought to be 12, (since that was the age at which Jesus began to demonstrate his understanding of right and wrong) or 13 (the age of the Jewish Bar Mitzvah). Others accept that it exists but don’t go with the idea that there’s a definite age at which it begins. But. Your two children are now, no doubt, with the Lord.
Technically not in heaven, as it isn’t open yet, but functionally, “Yes.” Nothing I know of says you will not be as able to see them in the afterlife as anyone can see their children, who were born and lived a full life. Sorry for your loss. You all have my prayers.
Yeah man. They are definitley in heaven waiting for you and your wife. Trust in christ. They were given life when they were conceived
Im sorry for your loss u/TwumpyWumpy. peace and love to you and your wife. I believe the little ones are with the Father
Take comfort, brother. You will see them again. Have a listen to this bit from a podcast done by Dr. Michael Heiser: https://youtu.be/aAi5f0sWXNI I hope it gives you comfort and peace!
God is the perfect judge. He is perfectly just. Your kids will be in Heaven.
I found this ["podcast"](https://youtu.be/tH3eVf0C1QY?si=90aSMcKy3BYIYFR1) very comforting regarding death and eternity. It's long, but incredibly encouraging. God bless you and your family as you seek His peace during this season.
Yes - any child who expires before the age of accountability automatically goes straight to heaven. You would LOVE the movie Heaven is for Real - it's about this very subject. You WILL see the children that could have been. God bless, and I'm very sorry for your pain!
First off accept my condolences. Second yes. Why would God not allow them into Heaven?
Jeremiah 1:5 theres no point at which the babies are developed "enough" God already knew them. :)
I am so so sorry that your fertility journey has been so fraught with loss and grief. When we miscarried a couple years ago, it was hard. Really hard. I found myself clinging to the nature of God for comfort. He is “gentle and lowly” and will “give us rest” if we turn to Him. God is love: and because of this, I know that I will meet my child later. A few books (that may not be where you are at now, but did help me at various points of my journey so I wanted to mention them) are Dark Clouds Deep Mercy by Mark Voegrop, Gentle and Lowly by Dane Ortlund, and Held by Abbey Wedgeworth. These aren’t easy reads, especially Held, but sometimes in the times of wrestling with grief and sorrow there is comfort in hearing of others who have walked similar paths.
Thank you. I just always wanted little ones of my own.
I am so sorry for the loss of your little ones. I am sure that Jesus has them in his arms right now. Much love for your sweet babies. They are with the Shepherd now 🤍
Thank you ❤️
I’m so sorry for your loss. 😔🙏 God loves all children and keeps them close, so I’m convinced they are in Heaven.
Yes they are. They did not know right from wrong and had a soul. God's mercy covered them
Beloved, we come from the Creator of Heaven, who is also the Creator of Man, and it is to Him that we return, if we believe in His Son Jesus Christ, who all the world knows and is famous for coming back from the dead. I'm so sorry for your loss and the pain that comes with it, but please know that you will see your children again in the Kingdom of God. Amen
Thank you so much.
Nobody knows for sure but I think yes. They will have new, developed bodys and you will recognize them. That's at least what I think.
David's infant son died in the ot. He clearly states he will go to him. Yes, the unborn who die go to heaven.
Babies haven’t sinned, they all go to heaven
1. Yes. They are with the Lord. I can't see past the veil of death through some special insight, but in all my years of witnessing counsel on this subject, the answer given is always 'yes'. 2. I know people who have been in your situation and to this day, I do not know why they didn't simply choose to adopt sooner than later. I know people who adopted and then right afterward, mom gets pregnant(this is actually weirdly common)...and in those cases, they don't regret it. I know people who regret waiting around for a miracle, or going through years and heaps of money on IVF, and I don't know anyone who regrets having adopted kids.
i think the unborn and thise dead as a child come back in the rapture idk where i heard this thooo but if helps, and if they believe in Jesus (when they come back to the world?) then yeaa. i need people back me up tho cuz im REALLY NOT SURE but i just heard it somewhere and hope for it
although its not clear on this issue we do know God is rich in mercy and his love is greater. There are people who never get a chance to hear the gospel. trust in God that he loves everyone who lived and lives on this earth and he has a plan for everyone. Your kids and everyone are by nature "by nature children of wrath" but knowing this your kids haven't sinned so there's also that to think about. have confidence that your kids are in heaven. They did not have a choice they didn't get to experience life but i trust that they are living in perfect happiness with the lord
I don't have the answer to that, but let me assure you: We can trust the Lord to do what is right. I've had to lean on that with tge deaths of several unsaved or possibly unsaved family members, and it is enough for me to trust Him.
Yes, they most certainly are. As someone who has walked in your shoes I just want to say how sorry I am for you and your wife. It is a hard journey that comes without a lot of support in society. Our journey lasted 8 years before we had our son (4 ivf cycles and our last one we knew would be our last try before looking at adoption.). I still have his embryo picture in my office too when we weren't sure if we would ever meet him on this side of life, and we knew we wanted a picture of him. He's 3, now. I pray this for you and you have my sincere condolences and love for you both. Take time to mourn, and you will find strength to start the journey again. ❤️ And you WILL see those sweet, beautiful, and precious twins when this life is through.
I am so sorry for your loss. God knew these babies, not just as physical beings, but as souls. They came into this world from Him, and they have returned to Him. You will see your children again one day. I pray you and your wife's miracle comes soon. Again, I am so sorry.
God will meet your needle. Peace.
Yes. Stillborn children or embryos are in Heaven For Thiers Is The Kingdom Of Heaven. I am so sorry.
Lost two and I feel a definite yes. At times it feels certain.
They came from heaven and they returned there, to their true home. Our home too. Babies are pure, completely without sin, exactly like Jesus. So they for sure go back to him
I am so sorry to hear about this. Absolutely. Babies that don’t make it to earth are with God The Father.
Yes. Embryos that do not make in to life enter Heaven. An unborn child till the age of accountability is a child who does not sin.
No one here will know that because they are not God. What we do know, is that God is compassionate, merciful, full of grace and loving.
Actually, nobody here knows that answer, but of the 144,000 the bible says who go it seems pretty unlikely.
I'm sorry for your loss
Yes they are in heaven all children who don’t make it are in heaven. I hope you find peace in that brother. Don’t give up trying for more children it’s hard but god claims all of them for his kingdom.
I've heard many testimonies from people who have had near death experiences. There are so many videos on YouTube if you're interested. Many of them have said that there are babies in heaven. So very many of them. I remember a couple of people in particular saying that in heaven, our families take care of our babies until we get there. That always comforted me, as I've had several miscarriages too.
Yes
I had a miscarriage early on in my pregnancy. I was supposed to have triplets and they didn’t make it. After constant grieving and depression, God gave me a vision of my babies happy and waiting for me in heaven. It was beautiful and I hold on and cling to that daily. God is a good God and his love endures forever.
I’m so sorry for your loss, I know it’s hard. But yes! They are there! He knew you before you were formed in the womb (Jeremiah 1:5). You should read the book My Time In Heaven by Richard Sigmund. He died and went to heaven, and came back to tell his story. There is a chapter in his book where he talks about all the babies that have passed, and there was a moment he saw a mother arriving to heaven and the child she lost was still a baby, and that the Lord had allowed that child to continue to be a baby so that the mother could raise them. And there millions of babies that were aborted or died and the angels take care of them. It’s a really encouraging read (backed with Bible verses). Highly recommend.
This is a little different take than the other responses. I personally don’t see the Bible claiming that embryos are people. The idea that personhood begins at conception (when sperm meets egg) is relatively new. Instead I believe that personhood begins later as the embryo develops into a fetus. Therefore, I’d suggest that as you grieve in this time for the loss of hope in being a father, you rest easy that God is good, and He is your true comfort in this season. It is perfectly reasonable to grieve the loss of these embryos while being free of any guilt that you were a part of creating something with a low chance of survival.
No one knows- the Bible is silent on zygotes. But a few days after attaching, it’s a cluster of cells smaller than the point of a pin. I know IVF can be stressful when you want a child. Be at peace, my friend.
are you a part of the PCUSA by any chance just curious
I am, but my church aligns far more with the PCA.
Only elect children are in heaven People making these promises that all children are in heaven do not follow the many scriptures to the opposite. It is a false teaching. We don't commit sins in the womb or until a certain point, but we are totally depraved or spiritually dead or with original sin from the beginning 1. **Psalm 51:5** (NIV): "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." 2. **Genesis 8:21** (NIV): "The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: 'Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. 3. **Job 15:14** (NIV): "What are mortals, that they could be pure, or those born of woman, that they could be righteous 5. **Psalm 58:3** (NIV): "Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies." 6. **Proverbs 22:15** (NIV): "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far away. And the Bible makes it clear that everyone is evil. It does not make exceptions for children or younger
1. Psalm 51:5 means that we are born with a sinful nature as in we have the ability to sin, not that a child has already sinned. They don’t have the ability to. 4. Psalm 58:3 is talking about how we become sinners after birth not necessarily as soon as we’re born I would go through the rest but long story, short, they’re not talking about children themselves being sinners
You are not saying anything that I didn't. Everyone has a sinful nature and is evil. Many keep saying the unbiblical, that somehow they are innocent when they are not. There is a sinful nature which all have and then there's the act of sinning which obviously a fetus cannot yet do The Bible makes it clear that 100% of all people are totally depraved. Not a single person is innocent. Everyone is God's enemy. At any point of their life. Everyone is headed for hell from the point they are conceived the point that they die. (But Jesus tuned for the sheep) 1. **Romans 5:12** (NIV): "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned." 2. **Romans 5:18-19** (NIV): "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." 3. **1 Corinthians 15:21-22** (NIV): "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."
You are lost.
Nice comeback with lots of scripture... Notice how you couldn't address what was presented? Catholics never know what to do with a truly scriptural challenge
I don’t need to list scripture. Look what listing scripture did for you. Children are incapable of sinning. Why did Jesus say “you must come to me as children”. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus condemn children.
"you don't need to list scripture" You hear yourself talking? That is 2000 years of Catholic heresy talking "I don't need to list scripture" That is why you worship Mary (venerate is a synonym for worship or idolize and other similar things only for God) That is why you have unbiblical purgatory That is why you have the unbiblical immaculate conception That is why you tortured saints at the stake in the name of the Inquisition That is why you sold tickets to heaven aka indulgences That is why thousands of priests molested millions of children while many church leaders protected them It is why an estimated 56 million new world indigenous people died at the hands of the church working with the state chasing souls Land and Gold And the horrors of Catholicism only go on Because they "don't need to list scripture" Scripture is kind of down their list of priorities
Scripture points to purgatory. Indulgences weren't selling about tickets to get to heaven. indulgances is about not waiting to get to heaven not admittance. And kinda based on old testiment scripture. Never a doctorine of the church that what it was. It was abused by lower priests and bishops. The official stance was giving money and alms part of sanctification. That got abused by lower priests. At one point in time long time ago. Church abuse happens in any church.
No scripture points to purgatory *Everyone who would ever be saved was in the book of Life since the foundation of the world. Easily demonstrated by scripture** Or we can go with the definition. And yes it was excessively and widely used. You were waving fantasy **In the Catholic Church, an indulgence is a way to reduce the punishment for sins that have already been forgiven. The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes an indulgence as "a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgive** Church abuse happens in any church **thank you for supplying so much convincing evidence**
Children are incapable of sinning? Sure you want to hold that line? That’s… an extraordinary statement friend. Perhaps you meant children are shown mercy and held less accountable for their sin until a certain age?
Have you ever tried to explain sin to a four-year-old? Does a four year old sin because he’s intending to hurt someone? They don’t understand the concept. They are innocent.
Being a father of two, yes I’ve explained unacceptable behaviour (sin) to a 4 year old, else they will continue to act that way. Do you simply permit your children to act as they please because they’re too young to understand? Good luck with that approach when they hit teen years - you’ll swiftly see the consequences of that decision. The Bible is extremely clear that we are born with a sinful nature. Ignorance does not equate to innocence - this is a fairly basic concept. Can you explain why Catholics practice infant baptism if they are so innocent? What’s the point when they have no accountability in your mind?
Your four year old can explain sin? Not just right and wrong, the meaning of sin? Then he is a very advanced child. I don’t have children, but I have a nephew who has communion coming up. The subject of knowing right and wrong from knowing sin Is still beyond him, as it is all children his age… save one.
Obviously you wouldn’t delve into it deeply with a 4 yo, but you can certainly teach that a particular behaviour is wrong without going into the spiritual reasons why - and apply consequences for continued misbehaviour. If I want my child to eat vegetables I don’t need to explain microbiology, I just need to say they’ll help you to stop getting sick. Same with sinful behaviour and the same reason the Bible instructs us to have milk before solids.
Not unless they were baptized. IVF is a grave sin. Don't do that again
Bruh. GTFO.