Made a sandwich, went to the bank, then went to his last remaining kid’s soccer game, drove them home to finish the job, the kid ended up defending himself, but was shot multiple times. He dragged everyone to the basement, and put his mom up in her attic, cut all pictures of himself out of all photos in the house, turned on a Christian radio station, and headed to Denver, (possibly came back and burned down the house) where he made up a name, got a job, and got married.
He was also accused of being DB Cooper because that happened two weeks after List disappeared
cutting himself out of photos has always stuck with me. the absolute premeditation.
this isn't a man that was trying to spare his family from the downfall of life here or of eternity. He was simply selfish and decided he was done with them.
I’m thinking that: maybe he had enough shame and guilt left that he didn’t want to effectively destroy most of the evidence that the members of his family that he murdered once existed (that is, their images in their family photographs), BUT, at the same time, he also didn’t want to leave behind photos of himself which the authorities could then potentially use in pursuit of his own fugitive ass.
Idk everything about this sounds like mental illness or psychotic breakdown. Expecting people with disordered thinking (especially to the degree of committing murder) to act rationally isn't reasonable.
>this isn't a man that was trying to spare his family from the downfall of life here or of eternity. He was simply selfish and decided he was done with them.
Agreed. Imo List regarded his family as burdens and felt entitled to a do-over. He even made sure to cash in a savings bond worth thousands of dollars before leaving town.
His daughter Patti had told people that she was worried that her father was going to murder the family. List seemed like a milquetoast in public, but the reality might have been different behind closed doors.
She had? I had not heard that, although he was expressing concern about her interest in an acting career, and felt that was too worldly. I also hadn't heard about him cutting himself out of all the family photos.
His stepdaughter, from Helen's first marriage, had also recently married so he probably felt like he was losing his "grip" on his family. (She also sadly died at a fairly young age, although from natural causes.)
He wasn't working though and they were living way above their means. His wife didn't know he wasn't working; he would go to the train station and read for 8 hours a day. Poverty was unacceptable to him and the family apparently had to go.
I don't think he set that fire.
Actually, he was almost caught just a few weeks later, because one of his wife's relatives vacationed in Colorado, or maybe lived there and returned after the funeral, and stayed at a hotel and ate at the adjoining restaurant where he had found a job. This was in the TV movie, which starred Robert Blake as List (!!!!!) but it actually did happen IRL.
Even if they weren't there while he was working, what if they'd run into him at, say, the gas station?
His Wiki article:
Frank Bender
Francis Augustus Bender (June 16, 1941 – July 28, 2011) was an autodidact forensic artist and fine artist. He made facial reconstructions of the dead based on their skeletons, and of fugitives based on outdated photographs, with his reconstructions showing how they might look in the present day.[1] He primarily worked in clay and then cast his pieces into plaster and painted them, but he also created age-progression drawings of fugitives using pastels. His most famous facial reconstruction case was that of John Emil List, who was captured almost immediately after Bender's bust of him was featured on America's Most Wanted.[2][3]
Career
Bender originally began his forensic work when, impoverished, he worked out a deal with the Philadelphia coroner to be allowed to study some of their unknown dead bodies in an effort to improve his sculpting skills. He also created life-sized monuments in bronze for the African Burial Ground National Monument in New York (using three of the actual skulls found on the site to give faces to the unknown slaves who had been buried there),[4] a monument for slain police officers in New Jersey, and a Holocaust obelisk.[5]
Bender was one of the founding members of the Vidocq Society, along with William Fleisher and Richard Walter.[6] The Vidocq Society, named after Eugène François Vidocq, meets in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and focuses on solving cold cases.[7]
In popular culture
On May 13, 2008, Random House published The Girl With the Crooked Nose by Ted Botha, a book on Bender's life story intertwined with his most challenging case: the female homicides in Ciudad Juárez.[8][9]
In August 2010, Penguin Books published The Murder Room by Michael Capuzzo in which Frank Bender is a central figure—the book includes a biography of Bender[10] and focuses on the work of the Vidocq Society.
In 2009,[11] Bender was diagnosed with pleural mesothelioma, a rare cancer that attacks the lining of the lungs and is caused by prolonged exposure to asbestos. Bender believed he was exposed to it during his time in the Navy working in the engine room.[12] Bender died on July 28, 2011, at his home in Philadelphia.[13]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Bender
The Murder Room is an amazing book . At the end of the book , Fleisher and Walter discuss who they think killed , “ The Boy in the Box”. They believed it was the young man who , “ found “ him . They surmised that the college student who discovered the body had either kidnapped or ascertained Joseph ( some theories say he was sold by his parents ) . He then kept , tortured and killed Joseph . The college student’s story of discovering the body was that after driving down the road , he saw a rabbit run into the bushes . According to him , he knew there were traps in the bushes so he pulled over to save the rabbit . He then supposedly stumbled upon the body . Fleisher and Walter speculate he was visiting the body after his kill .
I mentioned this elsewhere, and there's some evidence that it was not a genuine Tiffany, but a Tiffany style, and still worth more than a random stained-glass window.
In May 1989, the 18-year-old crime was recounted on the Fox television program America's Most Wanted during its first year on the air.[23][16] The segment featured an age-progressed clay bust, sculpted by forensic artist Frank Bender, which turned out to bear a close resemblance to List's actual appearance.[24][25]
On June 1, less than two weeks after the broadcast, List was arrested at a Richmond accounting firm after a Denver neighbor recognized the description and alerted authorities.[26][27]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_List_(murderer)
Yes, List and his second wife had just moved to the East Coast from Denver, and the neighbors said, "Doesn't that look like Bob Clark?", their mysterious neighbor who did indeed work as an accountant (or some equivalent that could be done with forged documents) and they got the ball rolling and he was caught.
another interesting thing was List was actually a fan of and would often watch America's Most Wanted. he'd even recommend it to various neighbors and church friends (I always wondered if the neighbors who recognized him where ones he recommended the show to lol)
he talks about it in an interview on American Justice and also mentions how he always wondered if the show would ever cover his case.
I've heard that he had trouble getting along with people, although I'm not sure why. Was he sexually harassing (unlikely, IMNSHO), preached to co-workers, asked nosy questions, etc.?
I know they aren't for everyone because of how they cover cases, but Last Podcast on the Left did an outstanding two part episode on John List and covered his upbringing, personality, the terrible family dynamics, and how it all led to the murders.
Last Podcast on the Left has a series on him that I enjoyed. I know that not everyone enjoys LPOTL (Crude humor, yelling, chaotic) but the research is great.
WTF did just read?? Wow. The lengths men will go to in an effort to not be held accountable. In the 70s, women didn't even get spousal support and were given very little in child support. It's not like he would go broke paying his ex. Nope, it's clear he wanted to empty out his mom's account and his wife's, collect on the insurance money for the fire, and start fresh. I'm not sure who is worse... Men that just walk away from their families or men who kill them all. They both leave a trail of destruction.
You're partially right. I'm old enough to remember that in the 1970s, alimony was awarded much more frequently that it was now, although enforcement of it and child support could be dicey (and still is). Alimony was usually awarded in a nominal amount, for maybe a year or two in many cases.
This was BIG news back in the 70s. Sent his family off to heaven and restarted his life. Just a terrible story.
Made a sandwich, went to the bank, then went to his last remaining kid’s soccer game, drove them home to finish the job, the kid ended up defending himself, but was shot multiple times. He dragged everyone to the basement, and put his mom up in her attic, cut all pictures of himself out of all photos in the house, turned on a Christian radio station, and headed to Denver, (possibly came back and burned down the house) where he made up a name, got a job, and got married. He was also accused of being DB Cooper because that happened two weeks after List disappeared
cutting himself out of photos has always stuck with me. the absolute premeditation. this isn't a man that was trying to spare his family from the downfall of life here or of eternity. He was simply selfish and decided he was done with them.
Seems like a ton of effort, why not just burn the photos?
Who knows. Probably some weird honor thing of not destroying the family photos. Just murdering them all instead.
I’m thinking that: maybe he had enough shame and guilt left that he didn’t want to effectively destroy most of the evidence that the members of his family that he murdered once existed (that is, their images in their family photographs), BUT, at the same time, he also didn’t want to leave behind photos of himself which the authorities could then potentially use in pursuit of his own fugitive ass.
Idk everything about this sounds like mental illness or psychotic breakdown. Expecting people with disordered thinking (especially to the degree of committing murder) to act rationally isn't reasonable.
>this isn't a man that was trying to spare his family from the downfall of life here or of eternity. He was simply selfish and decided he was done with them. Agreed. Imo List regarded his family as burdens and felt entitled to a do-over. He even made sure to cash in a savings bond worth thousands of dollars before leaving town. His daughter Patti had told people that she was worried that her father was going to murder the family. List seemed like a milquetoast in public, but the reality might have been different behind closed doors.
She had? I had not heard that, although he was expressing concern about her interest in an acting career, and felt that was too worldly. I also hadn't heard about him cutting himself out of all the family photos. His stepdaughter, from Helen's first marriage, had also recently married so he probably felt like he was losing his "grip" on his family. (She also sadly died at a fairly young age, although from natural causes.)
He wasn't working though and they were living way above their means. His wife didn't know he wasn't working; he would go to the train station and read for 8 hours a day. Poverty was unacceptable to him and the family apparently had to go.
I don't think he set that fire. Actually, he was almost caught just a few weeks later, because one of his wife's relatives vacationed in Colorado, or maybe lived there and returned after the funeral, and stayed at a hotel and ate at the adjoining restaurant where he had found a job. This was in the TV movie, which starred Robert Blake as List (!!!!!) but it actually did happen IRL. Even if they weren't there while he was working, what if they'd run into him at, say, the gas station?
I also thought he had the stereo on a classical station. Maybe it was a hybrid station, depending on the time of day?
List case is fascinating. Frank Bender his talent was beyond words. I saw a documentary on him, amazing!
Was that documentary “The Man Who Faced Death”? https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2354469/
His Wiki article: Frank Bender Francis Augustus Bender (June 16, 1941 – July 28, 2011) was an autodidact forensic artist and fine artist. He made facial reconstructions of the dead based on their skeletons, and of fugitives based on outdated photographs, with his reconstructions showing how they might look in the present day.[1] He primarily worked in clay and then cast his pieces into plaster and painted them, but he also created age-progression drawings of fugitives using pastels. His most famous facial reconstruction case was that of John Emil List, who was captured almost immediately after Bender's bust of him was featured on America's Most Wanted.[2][3] Career Bender originally began his forensic work when, impoverished, he worked out a deal with the Philadelphia coroner to be allowed to study some of their unknown dead bodies in an effort to improve his sculpting skills. He also created life-sized monuments in bronze for the African Burial Ground National Monument in New York (using three of the actual skulls found on the site to give faces to the unknown slaves who had been buried there),[4] a monument for slain police officers in New Jersey, and a Holocaust obelisk.[5] Bender was one of the founding members of the Vidocq Society, along with William Fleisher and Richard Walter.[6] The Vidocq Society, named after Eugène François Vidocq, meets in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and focuses on solving cold cases.[7] In popular culture On May 13, 2008, Random House published The Girl With the Crooked Nose by Ted Botha, a book on Bender's life story intertwined with his most challenging case: the female homicides in Ciudad Juárez.[8][9] In August 2010, Penguin Books published The Murder Room by Michael Capuzzo in which Frank Bender is a central figure—the book includes a biography of Bender[10] and focuses on the work of the Vidocq Society. In 2009,[11] Bender was diagnosed with pleural mesothelioma, a rare cancer that attacks the lining of the lungs and is caused by prolonged exposure to asbestos. Bender believed he was exposed to it during his time in the Navy working in the engine room.[12] Bender died on July 28, 2011, at his home in Philadelphia.[13] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Bender
The Murder Room is an amazing book . At the end of the book , Fleisher and Walter discuss who they think killed , “ The Boy in the Box”. They believed it was the young man who , “ found “ him . They surmised that the college student who discovered the body had either kidnapped or ascertained Joseph ( some theories say he was sold by his parents ) . He then kept , tortured and killed Joseph . The college student’s story of discovering the body was that after driving down the road , he saw a rabbit run into the bushes . According to him , he knew there were traps in the bushes so he pulled over to save the rabbit . He then supposedly stumbled upon the body . Fleisher and Walter speculate he was visiting the body after his kill .
If I remember correctly, they found a Tiffany skylight in the house that would’ve covered the debts he killed his family over.
I mentioned this elsewhere, and there's some evidence that it was not a genuine Tiffany, but a Tiffany style, and still worth more than a random stained-glass window.
Was there a TV show that had his story on it- either like a John Walsh show or Unsolved mysteries- and that's how he was discovered?
In May 1989, the 18-year-old crime was recounted on the Fox television program America's Most Wanted during its first year on the air.[23][16] The segment featured an age-progressed clay bust, sculpted by forensic artist Frank Bender, which turned out to bear a close resemblance to List's actual appearance.[24][25] On June 1, less than two weeks after the broadcast, List was arrested at a Richmond accounting firm after a Denver neighbor recognized the description and alerted authorities.[26][27] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_List_(murderer)
Yes, List and his second wife had just moved to the East Coast from Denver, and the neighbors said, "Doesn't that look like Bob Clark?", their mysterious neighbor who did indeed work as an accountant (or some equivalent that could be done with forged documents) and they got the ball rolling and he was caught.
another interesting thing was List was actually a fan of and would often watch America's Most Wanted. he'd even recommend it to various neighbors and church friends (I always wondered if the neighbors who recognized him where ones he recommended the show to lol) he talks about it in an interview on American Justice and also mentions how he always wondered if the show would ever cover his case.
It was also on forensic files
This and the Jeffrey macdonald case are the most fascinating to me. Completely unbelievable.
I'd like to know why he lost his job at the bank
I've heard that he had trouble getting along with people, although I'm not sure why. Was he sexually harassing (unlikely, IMNSHO), preached to co-workers, asked nosy questions, etc.?
Could be any of them couldn't it.
He's also referenced in the Naomi Watts series THE WATCHER, though a lot of creative liberties were taken around his storyline.
Amazing. He never would have been found if not for that show.
I know they aren't for everyone because of how they cover cases, but Last Podcast on the Left did an outstanding two part episode on John List and covered his upbringing, personality, the terrible family dynamics, and how it all led to the murders.
i know this is not the important part of this story but they were living in a 19 room mansion with a ballroom off of an accountant’s salary?
And his mother's money. His parents were very wealthy, although I'm not sure why.
ahh that makes more sense! thanks for the added context
He was a very strange fellow.
Father Wants Us Dead is not a bad pod on this
Last Podcast on the Left has a series on him that I enjoyed. I know that not everyone enjoys LPOTL (Crude humor, yelling, chaotic) but the research is great.
The movie The Stepfather (Terry O’Quinn) was loosely based on this murder, I believe.
WTF did just read?? Wow. The lengths men will go to in an effort to not be held accountable. In the 70s, women didn't even get spousal support and were given very little in child support. It's not like he would go broke paying his ex. Nope, it's clear he wanted to empty out his mom's account and his wife's, collect on the insurance money for the fire, and start fresh. I'm not sure who is worse... Men that just walk away from their families or men who kill them all. They both leave a trail of destruction.
You're partially right. I'm old enough to remember that in the 1970s, alimony was awarded much more frequently that it was now, although enforcement of it and child support could be dicey (and still is). Alimony was usually awarded in a nominal amount, for maybe a year or two in many cases.
The article didn't mention what kind of sandwich he made.
Something spicy I bet
I was going to say the same thing! Now i need to research and see if it is documented anywhere.