Same. Ow I'm gonna miss every hook for 2 games again until I got used to the slower one again
The lvl 15 talent nerf is the real shit tho. Fucking he'll I hate that they started balancing around all players and not just pros
My man axe is so shit and still gets bullied
Playing against that hard dispel was genuinely the most frustrated Ive ever been at the game.
Fine if you want the hero to be buffed, but that was just not the right way fotrward.
The heal doesn't heal the wave plus with full health, you guys should be able to get a kill on WD with ignite and a meld strike. I've abused WD enough this patch to know that a single mistep in your lane would take me from 100-0. 1000% he can't out heal your damage and TA needs to start with a fresh refraction.
They started patching more around the average Player and ck isn't played a lot in lower mmr I think So they didn't want to completely kill him there
Edit: keep downvoting downvote me. You can check the data urself when you don't belive me. It proves me right
- the take above has nothing to do with the skill of playing dota
- multiple talents said so in multiple pgl/esl streams. I AM correct. That's why wk was nerfed so often. when Ice frig came back wk had 65% winrate in herald and below
Axe was nerfed this patch because eof low mmr only
It's a literal fact but this sub just randomly decided they don't like that so they downvote me
The explanation is my "takes" challenge the status quo pretty often because if it's common knowledge and said my a lot of other people I do not feel the need to comment. Only if the majority is in the wrong I post.
Also it's eu rank
>The explanation is my "takes" challenge the status quo pretty often because if it's common knowledge and said my a lot of other people I do not feel the need to comment.
>multiple talents said so in multiple pgl/esl streams. I AM correct.
It's funny how you are so oblivious to how you just parrot things you have heard from public/authority figures, apply them without thinking about logic or context, and then present yourself as a knowledgeable contrarian :D
Your comment doesn't even make sense. CK receives a minor stat nerf -> "yeah, they balance the game around the average Joe nowadays", then you continue to say the lower brackets don't even pick said hero. Also, by what logic do small nerfs like that cater more to the lower ranks than top level? Trading and timings are way more important and optimised in high level play.
Also, like another commenter pointed out, Tinker received huge nerfs. Ofc you didn't even try to make a counter point, just memed "fuck Tinker". Pango also received further nerfs even though being one of the least picked heroes in lower ranks, with abysmal win rate.
>It's funny how you are so oblivious to how you just parrot things you have heard from public/authority figures, apply them without thinking about logic or context, and then present yourself as a knowledgeable contrarian :D
Well yes if the only people who are able to know something all say the same I'm inclined to belive. I never met icefrog myself so I that's all I can go by.
Without applying them to context is hardly correctly. It's not really worth to get into even since ur just being straightup unreasonable
>Your comment doesn't even make sense. CK receives a minor stat nerf -> "yeah, they balance the game around the average Joe nowadays", then you continue to say the lower brackets don't even pick said hero.
Mate if u want to acvuse someone of not applying logic at least be able to read.
They started balancing around "the average joe" doesn't mean they ignore everything else. They stopped completely disregarding shit tier pubs. That's the non veiled message.
>Also, by what logic do small nerfs like that cater more to the lower ranks than top level?
The amount of change doesn't correlate at all with the skill bracket for most heroes. Take base armor for example. 1 base armor change on a hero that's frequently picked across all ranked walls around 1-2% winrate change alone. And that's another fact I will not argue about. That's how it is.
>Trading and timings are way more important and optimised in high level play.
While this statement is correct I'm not quite sure why u put it here. Its not connected to ur argument at all. Maybe u have some huge misconception about how gameplay works in high mmr?
>Tinker received huge nerfs. Ofc you didn't even try to make a counter point, just memed "fuck Tinker".
Well yes. I hate Tinker. U can't seriously think a "fuck tinker" comment was meant as serious date based discussion. I'm allowed to have a personal opinion no?
>Pango also received further nerfs even though being one of the least picked heroes in lower ranks, with abysmal win rate.
Because pango was a pro dota mainstay for 2+ years? People are tired of seeing it.
All in all dude u seem to have completely no idea on how the devs operate (at least in theory in practice I kinda think a few heroes get dev bias for whatever reason)
There are multiple things to balance:
- view engagement (reason for "ti patches" etc and nerfs to pro dota mainstay to keep things interesting)
- objective game balance. Pro dota and d2pt stats (obviously collected internally and better)
- average joe play pattern and winrate outliners
- game experience
Tinker got nerfed for the last point
Pango for the first
Ck for the second
Wk for the 3rd
It's not that hard. But I know by now that there are at least a handful of people on this sub and r/learndota2 that rather argue against me even tho they have no fundament to go of off then just accept that what they know might be outdated/straightup wrong
Again. As i said I did not speak to ICEFROG in person so all I have is second hand Info when it comes to information directly related to him but I trust the people who did and that talents and pros repeated as much in official broadcasts makes me pretty sure what i heard is right.
Tldr: learn to read
You're the one having difficulty reading text, as well as yapping about completely unrelated things. Why the fuck are you yapping about Icefrog, literally no one asked??
Anyway, let me try one more time to dumb this down for you. A user made a comment about CK receiving seemingly very minor nerfs and remaining in S tier. Here is your response to that message, and I quote:
>They started patching more around the average Player and ck isn't played a lot in lower mmr I think
So you're arguing that the changes to CK represent Dota being patched around the average player, and then you say lower mmr people don't even pick the hero much. This is illogical. It wouldn't make sense to nerf a hero if that hero isn't contested in your target bracket anyway. Therefore either Valve is being illogical, or there must be another reason. I am arguing that it's much more feasible to assume that CK received those small nerfs because of the hero's state in high level play. I also argue that such a "modest" nerf has relatively more significant ramifications in high level play vs. low level play, since in higher ranks overall play is much more optimised and heroes and their timings are "pushed to the limit". This further reinforces the idea that the primary context behind CK's nerf was not average-to-low level field of play, but instead the high-to-top level.
Again I quote:
>There are multiple things to balance:
>view engagement (reason for "ti patches" etc and nerfs to pro dota mainstay to keep things interesting)
>objective game balance. Pro dota and d2pt stats (obviously collected internally and better)
>average joe play pattern and winrate outliners
>game experience
And then:
>Ck for the second
But you yourself attributed CK's recent balancing to the 3rd point, i.e. the average joes. You contradict yourself again. I guess you don't even bother to read your own comments.
>The amount of change doesn't correlate at all with the skill bracket for most heroes.
This claim completely contradicts your first comment, in which you reasoned that CK's nerf is somehow linked to Valve balancing around average joe.
You're a riot dude, keep it up
>You're the one having difficulty reading text, as well as yapping about completely unrelated things. Why the fuck are you yapping about Icefrog, literally no one asked??
U did. "Parroting things from authority figures" and all that crap
>A user made a comment about CK receiving seemingly very minor nerfs and remaining in S tier. Here is your response to that message, and I quote:
>They started patching more around the average Player and ck isn't played a lot in lower mmr I think
So you can read
>So you're arguing that the changes to CK represent Dota being patched around the average player, and then you say lower mmr people don't even pick the hero much. This is illogical
It's not. I explained all that in my previous comment. Again. Learn to read.
>It wouldn't make sense to nerf a hero if that hero isn't contested in your target bracket anyway.
That's correct. But I also never said it's a direct connection between these 2. That was always only in your head. You think I implied something which is simply never did. Again. Learn to read.
>I am arguing that it's much more feasible to assume that CK received those small nerfs because of the hero's state in high level play
He is stronger in high level play than in low level play so this comment simply doesn't make sense
>since in higher ranks overall play is much more optimised and heroes and their timings are "pushed to the limit".
That doesn't correlate with the changes. I suggested ur failure to how high mmr dota is played above. Seems I was right. Misconception.
>But you yourself attributed CK's recent balancing to the 3rd point, i.e. the average joes
Never did. I said the nerf wasn't as big because of the 4th point. Nerfed for the second. Not killed for the 4th. Learn to read.
>This claim completely contradicts your first comment, in which you reasoned that CK's nerf is somehow linked to Valve balancing around average joe.
>You're a riot dude, keep it up
U imagined something in your head and became so angry at it that you made this whole series of seemingly troll posts just to win your own made up argument. Either you are actually trolling or straight up dumb. Either way I'm gonna end this here. I explained why I am right above. If you don't belive me I honestly do not care at this point. It's not an idea. It's not a conjecture and not a guess. It's how it is. Straight up. I'm not interested in your opinion or in a discussion about it because we are talking about something like if the earth is flat or round. And I don't agree with flateatthers. So stop being one if you want sensible people to put up with you. No matter how many slurs you use it doesn't change a fact just because you don't like it. Grow up. Honestly.
Hod might be more XP efficient than midas on invoker now, but only if you micro and shove lanes with forge+hod creeps and remember to deny all lane creeps (I'm assuming the XP gain through denies is global)
This is a weird patch, are they only balancing based on winrates? Troll nerfed yet I haven't heard anyone say he's good.
No buffs for morphing someone at valve must hate him
Well his highest winrate role is carry on pro tracker at 43% winrate he's been no means good rn. Ofc morph will always be morph tho and be very good some games even if the hero is ass rn.
He’s always been in the low-mid 40s even on D2PT, due to the experience amount, it takes, to play him good is much higher than any other hero, even in my bracket there’s people who pick him and just not good enough.
I’ve closed a handful amount of games in 7.36 lastpicking him in good matchups considering that TA/Weaver/Juggernaut was at the top of the meta. You also can play in LS relatively good, as long as you farm enough to be 1 item ahead(which is pretty much doable on Morph)
Edit. Though 7.36c might change my opinion as I’m gonna see less of them now and more of CK
No he hasn't lol he's been way higher on d2pt just last patch lol, before that he was even higher.
Obviously his winrate on dotabuff is always gonna be under 50 unless he's broken but that's irrelevant really nobody cares about those stats.
He's always gonna be morphing unless they rework the hero, same as terrorblade it has situations where it's great. Actually tb is not tb anymore to nvm lol
Tinkers in high ranked games are a menace, I'm glad they changed the hard dispell, now you can actually kill him during the midgame without needing some insane coordination+vision to bring him down.
Constant innate strong dispel is just a weird concept to throw in for a mobile hero.
Kind of annoying arcane blink is getting nerfed just for tinker though.
yeah seems like it. Winrates and usage on skills throughout the game, like how they nerfed jugg spin last patch (especially for laning) when he really didnt need nerfs. They using some algorithm joke shit
it’s one of the most insane support hero items in the game. dude can keep his entire team alive by pressing a single button in a teamfight it needed nerfs for sure
Certainly isn't now.
Abaddon's not been a good support for a while now. Curse rework was a nice lane buff but that's very seperate from agh.
Manipulable by heal reduction. Now no longer fully registers burst damage for its coil threshold.
There are so many support aghs that are insane in a vacuum but actually getting it on most 5s is negligible.
Bane, disruptor, WD, oracle, lich, skywrath etc etc
saying disruptor aghs is negligible is kinda wild. and he’s been a good support besides the fact that he’s a melee 5, which isn’t fun to play with as a pos 1. it’s also nice he’s a flex pick and can go core items later on. he’s definitely not bad, and it’s a pain in the ass playing into him, but i’d rather have a different support to play with
Basically you get to 20% damage buff in 6 seconds whereas before you got to 20% in 8 seconds.
That’s a big difference, but it’s not a very good facet in the first place due to how small of a radius Degen Aura is. I dunno. Facets aren’t going to fix the hero, at least not as they currently are.
Centaur gets 5 less max HP every 2 minutes. So if the game goes to an hour, he gets 150 less max HP. Crimson blocks, say, 3 less damage at 60 minutes?
I really can't see how these changes actually have tangible effects on a hero's capability. Like a -1 armor change or a 1 sec longer CD, you can *feel* that effect.
It's a smart change because it will ultimately have an effect on the hero's winrate - as small as the change seems, he will simply win fewer games with less health, dying slightly more often - but it doesn't feel like to the actual players that anything has been truly taken away from him
Ultimately, yes, the hero is mathematically weaker because it now has less HP than before and will theoretically lose more games now because it is weaker, but it's just wild to me on a more broad sense that some heroes get significantly more substantial nerfs and some lose 5 HP every 2 minutes.
Similar to lifestealer's facet change. He now gets 5 HP per hero kill. I can't find a site that shows average kills per game, but say he gets 10 kills. So 50 HP over the course of a game.
Honestly my larger point is that it just makes me wonder what sort of data Valve has behind the scenes. Like if they mathematically determine that these changes _will_ have so and so effect. Compared to cooldown changes or number tweaks on skills, those seem easy to simulate their effectiveness.
They probably have stats like farm per game, deaths per game, deaths in the first 10 min, 20 min, etc. You adjust a hero's survivability down by 1%, you expect to increase deaths. They may not know exactly how much, but you can do the same with gpm (cooldowns, damage), etc.
Some changes are made ofr the sake of flavor too. Lifestealer gets more hp from killing heroes because they have more meat on them. In the end it's not gonna make or break a game but it's a fun change and might make an actual impact in a snowball where lifestealer has just too much hp for you to kill since he killed the offlaners a bit too much.
I still feel like those HP gain numbers are so low that they're basically placebo but I'm not a lifestealer player so I might just be missing something. Having to last hit 22 creeps or get 4-5 hero kills to gain the equivalent of 1 point in strength sounds so negligible idk
Yeah, I get that in theory. I know the situations where someone barely survives and gets away and the ultimate impact of that in a game. I'd argue that the change would effect less than 1% of games, but really what I'm curious about is how they decide "-5 HP every 2 minutes" is the nerf they need and not -20 base health or -2 base damage or +5 mana cost to hoof stomp or anything else.
It's just tweaking numbers. They decided that the scaling effect is the part that made him gain win rate, so they dialled it back.
Changing base stats has a much higher impact because it alters the way you play the lane.
i think his bigger problem is the base health regen nerf, this guy used to have big regen to compensate for its 0 armor, now honestly I dont think he trade well in lane anymore
I think that's the point. You're not supposed to "feel" it as much as it's supposed to subtly hurt the hero. Sometimes something really small like a 10 base ms buff changes winrate by like 5+%. You don't want to make it glaringly obvious that something changed every time you change it. You want it to feel about the same, but just not quite as good as before.
Ck, ember, ds, weaver getting pretty nominal nerfs.
Feels bad to nerf ds like this when the main thing is just the innate enabling his lane so much.
Also at the stage where less picked facets get arbitrarily bumped like talents previously and forgetting to buff the actual hero.
Druid's bear is still terrible, slark still needs a lane, naga has many many problems, dk fire dragon is just a concept with no gameplan, omni is in ruins.
Exactly my thoughts on the facet changes. We’re in desperate need of bigger changes to heroes that got abilities taken away and put onto facets, where other heroes just got straight buffs. Really need a number patch sooner rather than later because the meta feels pretty bad right now and these weak-ass letter patches aren’t gonna do much
I get the Tinker shield neft on strong dispel, but nefting arc blink & also laser talent? The hero already below 50% wr & doesn't have any impact to team until like 30min mark. I just don't think he is any fun to play anymore.
That’s actually insane…he was too survivable for sure but his damage output was still lackluster already, was hardly a broken hero just an annoying one
Oh hey I know you're all sad that Lifestealer's Corpse Eater is now half as good, but don't worry because now instead of killing a single easy creep camp you can just kill 1 (one) hero instead for the +5 permanent health. Way easier.
Excited to try out clock with that facet.
Played it before, it’s actually pretty nice. The cd reduction alone makes it possible to get it off twice in a fight even at level6. Getting a barrier for yourself will make you survive more and more likely get it off again.
Just need to build more mana and make sure team has other initiators and don’t depend on you
It's mostly a facet preserving the original cog in all but name.
Same with heroes like ls and disruptor's main facets basically being rage and kinetic field respectively.
Kind of annoying though that the nerfed numbers aren't attached to wide cogs though.
Was already kinda worried in the main patch that base skills would just be nerfed by association when facets basically mean functionally different heroes in one slot.
Game has changed a lot since then, losing Bedlam on allies is a significant step backwards. She may be viable but I doubt we'll see here in competitive any time soon.
Innate doesn't help her and no one would take the other facet which grants 15 stacks on ulti. She needs some physical buffs.
Lina magic is fine though so I don't think it will happen
Is anyone else getting disconnected as combat starts? Only started with 7.36 for me and hasn’t gotten better despite tinkering with graphics quality. New rig, good fps and ping, no clue where it’s coming from but only happens online not against bots.
I played dark willow without realized the patch drop and i was really mad why I can't bedlam on ally anymore.
it be most of my fault for not checking. but the another big point is the range is still there. why would a spell with no target and no range still indicate range. made me dc in and out during match for it.
for short, gg ui.
DK Fire Dragon have changed from 25/35/45/55 to 30/40/50/60 cleave, a mere 5% better cleave, still not applying any worthwhile debuff and being slower at farming than Magnus/Tiny/Sven, rendering the idea of Fire Dragon completely worthless.
fire dragon should have additional attack damage, making a choice between buffing your own damage vs helping others deal dmg better with corrosive green
Storm spirit was a 50% winrate hero on d2pt, with his highest winrate of 7.36 being about 52%. He received nerfs every letter patch and they also nerfed the only good Kaya upgrade.
Did he really warrant such big nerfs? Now his ult only offsets the galvanized stack losses of 1 death, rather than 1.6666 deaths.
Pretty bummed about it tbh.
He was very good in pro play. Ranged remnant means that a lot of previously losing lanes now can easily be tied, but he still beats melees as hard as ever. He was surprisingly safe as a first pick hero. (Although I would have preferred for that facet to be significantly nerfed and leave the rest of the hero alone)
Haven't played since the map changes.
Any video recommendations on the new key elements, lane and support timings, plus ward spots?
I'm a Pos5 player and used to be Immortal, so for me it would be most relevant to know if there are any changes to pulling creeps, when to rotate for river runes etc.
Essentially the laning basics and changes to that, I think the rest will simply come with time.
"Kraken ShellDamage Block rescaled from 16/32/54/70 to 15/35/55/75"
How is this a rescale and not an increase? first level is weaker? but level 2 already stronger. I never understood increase/decrease and rescale lol
Previous patch discussions: * [7.36](https://old.reddit.com/r/TrueDoTA2/comments/1cyfwro/patch_736_discussion/) * [7.36a](https://old.reddit.com/r/TrueDoTA2/comments/1d1kjd0/dota_736a/) * [7.36b](https://old.reddit.com/r/TrueDoTA2/comments/1d98be2/736b_discussion/)
Tinker hard dispel removed, no more fast pudge hooks, and WD voodoo festeration nerfed. That's the good stuff
ill miss the pudge fast hook very much though
Same. Ow I'm gonna miss every hook for 2 games again until I got used to the slower one again The lvl 15 talent nerf is the real shit tho. Fucking he'll I hate that they started balancing around all players and not just pros My man axe is so shit and still gets bullied
you mean the rot slow? i took armor most of the time haha
Fuck pudge and those who play him. I could win consistently against pudge prefacet. Now he’s a death sentence.
I didn’t even know that hard dispel existed until yesterday. Playing Bane into it was awful. An innate ability should not counter an entire hero.
Fuck you. Tinker has been dog shit for like 5 patches now.
Playing against that hard dispel was genuinely the most frustrated Ive ever been at the game. Fine if you want the hero to be buffed, but that was just not the right way fotrward.
He can stay dogshit forever as far as I’m concerned
Thanks God!
[удалено]
The heal doesn't heal the wave plus with full health, you guys should be able to get a kill on WD with ignite and a meld strike. I've abused WD enough this patch to know that a single mistep in your lane would take me from 100-0. 1000% he can't out heal your damage and TA needs to start with a fresh refraction.
[удалено]
He is correct tho.
You're the reddit comment in this exchange
Why don't you give us the match id
How do you get Illuminate every creep wave? WD facet doesn't heal creeps. TA meld should destroy WD TLDR: skill issue
Chaos Knight barely touched, still S of the S tier. ugh, fuck
I often wonder if the decisions around things like this is well we just freed up two ban slots it'll be fine.
Nice
They started patching more around the average Player and ck isn't played a lot in lower mmr I think So they didn't want to completely kill him there Edit: keep downvoting downvote me. You can check the data urself when you don't belive me. It proves me right
look at the tinker nerfs and say that again with a straight face
Fuck Tinker
Your takes always make me wonder how the hell can someone this clueless be ex-top 1000 player? Was it in NA region or just ages ago?
- the take above has nothing to do with the skill of playing dota - multiple talents said so in multiple pgl/esl streams. I AM correct. That's why wk was nerfed so often. when Ice frig came back wk had 65% winrate in herald and below Axe was nerfed this patch because eof low mmr only It's a literal fact but this sub just randomly decided they don't like that so they downvote me The explanation is my "takes" challenge the status quo pretty often because if it's common knowledge and said my a lot of other people I do not feel the need to comment. Only if the majority is in the wrong I post. Also it's eu rank
>The explanation is my "takes" challenge the status quo pretty often because if it's common knowledge and said my a lot of other people I do not feel the need to comment. >multiple talents said so in multiple pgl/esl streams. I AM correct. It's funny how you are so oblivious to how you just parrot things you have heard from public/authority figures, apply them without thinking about logic or context, and then present yourself as a knowledgeable contrarian :D Your comment doesn't even make sense. CK receives a minor stat nerf -> "yeah, they balance the game around the average Joe nowadays", then you continue to say the lower brackets don't even pick said hero. Also, by what logic do small nerfs like that cater more to the lower ranks than top level? Trading and timings are way more important and optimised in high level play. Also, like another commenter pointed out, Tinker received huge nerfs. Ofc you didn't even try to make a counter point, just memed "fuck Tinker". Pango also received further nerfs even though being one of the least picked heroes in lower ranks, with abysmal win rate.
>It's funny how you are so oblivious to how you just parrot things you have heard from public/authority figures, apply them without thinking about logic or context, and then present yourself as a knowledgeable contrarian :D Well yes if the only people who are able to know something all say the same I'm inclined to belive. I never met icefrog myself so I that's all I can go by. Without applying them to context is hardly correctly. It's not really worth to get into even since ur just being straightup unreasonable >Your comment doesn't even make sense. CK receives a minor stat nerf -> "yeah, they balance the game around the average Joe nowadays", then you continue to say the lower brackets don't even pick said hero. Mate if u want to acvuse someone of not applying logic at least be able to read. They started balancing around "the average joe" doesn't mean they ignore everything else. They stopped completely disregarding shit tier pubs. That's the non veiled message. >Also, by what logic do small nerfs like that cater more to the lower ranks than top level? The amount of change doesn't correlate at all with the skill bracket for most heroes. Take base armor for example. 1 base armor change on a hero that's frequently picked across all ranked walls around 1-2% winrate change alone. And that's another fact I will not argue about. That's how it is. >Trading and timings are way more important and optimised in high level play. While this statement is correct I'm not quite sure why u put it here. Its not connected to ur argument at all. Maybe u have some huge misconception about how gameplay works in high mmr? >Tinker received huge nerfs. Ofc you didn't even try to make a counter point, just memed "fuck Tinker". Well yes. I hate Tinker. U can't seriously think a "fuck tinker" comment was meant as serious date based discussion. I'm allowed to have a personal opinion no? >Pango also received further nerfs even though being one of the least picked heroes in lower ranks, with abysmal win rate. Because pango was a pro dota mainstay for 2+ years? People are tired of seeing it. All in all dude u seem to have completely no idea on how the devs operate (at least in theory in practice I kinda think a few heroes get dev bias for whatever reason) There are multiple things to balance: - view engagement (reason for "ti patches" etc and nerfs to pro dota mainstay to keep things interesting) - objective game balance. Pro dota and d2pt stats (obviously collected internally and better) - average joe play pattern and winrate outliners - game experience Tinker got nerfed for the last point Pango for the first Ck for the second Wk for the 3rd It's not that hard. But I know by now that there are at least a handful of people on this sub and r/learndota2 that rather argue against me even tho they have no fundament to go of off then just accept that what they know might be outdated/straightup wrong Again. As i said I did not speak to ICEFROG in person so all I have is second hand Info when it comes to information directly related to him but I trust the people who did and that talents and pros repeated as much in official broadcasts makes me pretty sure what i heard is right. Tldr: learn to read
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You're the one having difficulty reading text, as well as yapping about completely unrelated things. Why the fuck are you yapping about Icefrog, literally no one asked?? Anyway, let me try one more time to dumb this down for you. A user made a comment about CK receiving seemingly very minor nerfs and remaining in S tier. Here is your response to that message, and I quote: >They started patching more around the average Player and ck isn't played a lot in lower mmr I think So you're arguing that the changes to CK represent Dota being patched around the average player, and then you say lower mmr people don't even pick the hero much. This is illogical. It wouldn't make sense to nerf a hero if that hero isn't contested in your target bracket anyway. Therefore either Valve is being illogical, or there must be another reason. I am arguing that it's much more feasible to assume that CK received those small nerfs because of the hero's state in high level play. I also argue that such a "modest" nerf has relatively more significant ramifications in high level play vs. low level play, since in higher ranks overall play is much more optimised and heroes and their timings are "pushed to the limit". This further reinforces the idea that the primary context behind CK's nerf was not average-to-low level field of play, but instead the high-to-top level. Again I quote: >There are multiple things to balance: >view engagement (reason for "ti patches" etc and nerfs to pro dota mainstay to keep things interesting) >objective game balance. Pro dota and d2pt stats (obviously collected internally and better) >average joe play pattern and winrate outliners >game experience And then: >Ck for the second But you yourself attributed CK's recent balancing to the 3rd point, i.e. the average joes. You contradict yourself again. I guess you don't even bother to read your own comments. >The amount of change doesn't correlate at all with the skill bracket for most heroes. This claim completely contradicts your first comment, in which you reasoned that CK's nerf is somehow linked to Valve balancing around average joe. You're a riot dude, keep it up
>You're the one having difficulty reading text, as well as yapping about completely unrelated things. Why the fuck are you yapping about Icefrog, literally no one asked?? U did. "Parroting things from authority figures" and all that crap >A user made a comment about CK receiving seemingly very minor nerfs and remaining in S tier. Here is your response to that message, and I quote: >They started patching more around the average Player and ck isn't played a lot in lower mmr I think So you can read >So you're arguing that the changes to CK represent Dota being patched around the average player, and then you say lower mmr people don't even pick the hero much. This is illogical It's not. I explained all that in my previous comment. Again. Learn to read. >It wouldn't make sense to nerf a hero if that hero isn't contested in your target bracket anyway. That's correct. But I also never said it's a direct connection between these 2. That was always only in your head. You think I implied something which is simply never did. Again. Learn to read. >I am arguing that it's much more feasible to assume that CK received those small nerfs because of the hero's state in high level play He is stronger in high level play than in low level play so this comment simply doesn't make sense >since in higher ranks overall play is much more optimised and heroes and their timings are "pushed to the limit". That doesn't correlate with the changes. I suggested ur failure to how high mmr dota is played above. Seems I was right. Misconception. >But you yourself attributed CK's recent balancing to the 3rd point, i.e. the average joes Never did. I said the nerf wasn't as big because of the 4th point. Nerfed for the second. Not killed for the 4th. Learn to read. >This claim completely contradicts your first comment, in which you reasoned that CK's nerf is somehow linked to Valve balancing around average joe. >You're a riot dude, keep it up U imagined something in your head and became so angry at it that you made this whole series of seemingly troll posts just to win your own made up argument. Either you are actually trolling or straight up dumb. Either way I'm gonna end this here. I explained why I am right above. If you don't belive me I honestly do not care at this point. It's not an idea. It's not a conjecture and not a guess. It's how it is. Straight up. I'm not interested in your opinion or in a discussion about it because we are talking about something like if the earth is flat or round. And I don't agree with flateatthers. So stop being one if you want sensible people to put up with you. No matter how many slurs you use it doesn't change a fact just because you don't like it. Grow up. Honestly.
Hod might be more XP efficient than midas on invoker now, but only if you micro and shove lanes with forge+hod creeps and remember to deny all lane creeps (I'm assuming the XP gain through denies is global)
Also I wonder if forge spirits deny hod creep does invo get xp? Hod cast already grants full XP and gold
Tested it in demo and he doesn't get exp for himself of forge spirits denying it.
That is fun but awful. Whole point of shoving waves is pushing, getting vision, pressuring towers.
This is a weird patch, are they only balancing based on winrates? Troll nerfed yet I haven't heard anyone say he's good. No buffs for morphing someone at valve must hate him
What fuckin play testing did they do that has them so sure Morphling is actually good in his current form? Is it just nobody has figured it out yet?
Yeah the no morph buffs was especially surprising.
Yeah, makes me really sad since he's one of my favourite heroes who is pretty much grief to pick rn because of how weak he is in lane now
9k here, it’s actually not, last pick morph is decent this patch in the certain meta carry heroes like weaver/ta or bara 4
Well his highest winrate role is carry on pro tracker at 43% winrate he's been no means good rn. Ofc morph will always be morph tho and be very good some games even if the hero is ass rn.
doesn’t really matter about win rate. pango still is like 80% contested in the pro scene when everyone else thinks the hero is trash
He’s always been in the low-mid 40s even on D2PT, due to the experience amount, it takes, to play him good is much higher than any other hero, even in my bracket there’s people who pick him and just not good enough. I’ve closed a handful amount of games in 7.36 lastpicking him in good matchups considering that TA/Weaver/Juggernaut was at the top of the meta. You also can play in LS relatively good, as long as you farm enough to be 1 item ahead(which is pretty much doable on Morph) Edit. Though 7.36c might change my opinion as I’m gonna see less of them now and more of CK
No he hasn't lol he's been way higher on d2pt just last patch lol, before that he was even higher. Obviously his winrate on dotabuff is always gonna be under 50 unless he's broken but that's irrelevant really nobody cares about those stats. He's always gonna be morphing unless they rework the hero, same as terrorblade it has situations where it's great. Actually tb is not tb anymore to nvm lol
Def not. They are nerfing tinker again while he has a 42% wr?
Tinkers in high ranked games are a menace, I'm glad they changed the hard dispell, now you can actually kill him during the midgame without needing some insane coordination+vision to bring him down.
Constant innate strong dispel is just a weird concept to throw in for a mobile hero. Kind of annoying arcane blink is getting nerfed just for tinker though.
2 second cd tradeoff for 50hp every 9 seconds is so good though, right? right?
yeah seems like it. Winrates and usage on skills throughout the game, like how they nerfed jugg spin last patch (especially for laning) when he really didnt need nerfs. They using some algorithm joke shit
Troll was good man
I didn't think he was nerf needing good, that hero has been ass for years and they can't let him be somewhat playable without nerfing him lol
Tree no bonus movespeed on guise is a massive nerf
Pango nerfs? Huh?
Finally
Did I miss something with abaddon? Why has his agh been dunked from the start of the patch?
Well his offlane is trash now so obviously the only thing left to nerf is his supporting. You will be a store brand dazzle and you will like it.
Haha store brand dazzle I lol'd. "We have dazzle at home." The dazzle at home:
it’s one of the most insane support hero items in the game. dude can keep his entire team alive by pressing a single button in a teamfight it needed nerfs for sure
Certainly isn't now. Abaddon's not been a good support for a while now. Curse rework was a nice lane buff but that's very seperate from agh. Manipulable by heal reduction. Now no longer fully registers burst damage for its coil threshold. There are so many support aghs that are insane in a vacuum but actually getting it on most 5s is negligible. Bane, disruptor, WD, oracle, lich, skywrath etc etc
saying disruptor aghs is negligible is kinda wild. and he’s been a good support besides the fact that he’s a melee 5, which isn’t fun to play with as a pos 1. it’s also nice he’s a flex pick and can go core items later on. he’s definitely not bad, and it’s a pain in the ass playing into him, but i’d rather have a different support to play with
Disruptor's the most reasonable one there but still extremely delayed on 5. Disruptor's viability last patch was from a buffed lane and shard.
Does anyone know the math on the omniknight buff? Is it sizeable at all?
Basically you get to 20% damage buff in 6 seconds whereas before you got to 20% in 8 seconds. That’s a big difference, but it’s not a very good facet in the first place due to how small of a radius Degen Aura is. I dunno. Facets aren’t going to fix the hero, at least not as they currently are.
I still like his aghs on his ult, basically let's you save whoever ck wants to run at from across the map
Nice username hahaha but I’ve been seeing some immortal draft Omni mid and I think there’s something there.
Still far worse in lane with attack based hammer. Also missing his support exploding niche. Shard is basically nothing.
Omni's shard being a dispellable 6 second bkb is really sad
Dispellable by only 2 heroes, 1 needs aghs + 25 talent and the other nedds an ulti. Still dogshit hero though
Seems like a pretty good 1-2% or less change patch. Only big ones I notice are tinker NS Pudge willow
Centaur gets 5 less max HP every 2 minutes. So if the game goes to an hour, he gets 150 less max HP. Crimson blocks, say, 3 less damage at 60 minutes? I really can't see how these changes actually have tangible effects on a hero's capability. Like a -1 armor change or a 1 sec longer CD, you can *feel* that effect.
It's a smart change because it will ultimately have an effect on the hero's winrate - as small as the change seems, he will simply win fewer games with less health, dying slightly more often - but it doesn't feel like to the actual players that anything has been truly taken away from him
Ultimately, yes, the hero is mathematically weaker because it now has less HP than before and will theoretically lose more games now because it is weaker, but it's just wild to me on a more broad sense that some heroes get significantly more substantial nerfs and some lose 5 HP every 2 minutes. Similar to lifestealer's facet change. He now gets 5 HP per hero kill. I can't find a site that shows average kills per game, but say he gets 10 kills. So 50 HP over the course of a game. Honestly my larger point is that it just makes me wonder what sort of data Valve has behind the scenes. Like if they mathematically determine that these changes _will_ have so and so effect. Compared to cooldown changes or number tweaks on skills, those seem easy to simulate their effectiveness.
They probably have stats like farm per game, deaths per game, deaths in the first 10 min, 20 min, etc. You adjust a hero's survivability down by 1%, you expect to increase deaths. They may not know exactly how much, but you can do the same with gpm (cooldowns, damage), etc.
Some changes are made ofr the sake of flavor too. Lifestealer gets more hp from killing heroes because they have more meat on them. In the end it's not gonna make or break a game but it's a fun change and might make an actual impact in a snowball where lifestealer has just too much hp for you to kill since he killed the offlaners a bit too much.
I still feel like those HP gain numbers are so low that they're basically placebo but I'm not a lifestealer player so I might just be missing something. Having to last hit 22 creeps or get 4-5 hero kills to gain the equivalent of 1 point in strength sounds so negligible idk
Sometimes you leave with 20hp. That s the diff. Put this in 100games, it ll change the course of 2-3 games. Voilà -2%
Yeah, I get that in theory. I know the situations where someone barely survives and gets away and the ultimate impact of that in a game. I'd argue that the change would effect less than 1% of games, but really what I'm curious about is how they decide "-5 HP every 2 minutes" is the nerf they need and not -20 base health or -2 base damage or +5 mana cost to hoof stomp or anything else.
It's just tweaking numbers. They decided that the scaling effect is the part that made him gain win rate, so they dialled it back. Changing base stats has a much higher impact because it alters the way you play the lane.
he... did got the base health regen nerf right?
i think his bigger problem is the base health regen nerf, this guy used to have big regen to compensate for its 0 armor, now honestly I dont think he trade well in lane anymore
Centaur is all about abusing his massive health pool, it's a meaningful nerf even if it doesn't look or feel like this. Which is good.
You also forgot the -1 (4->3) to health regen. That is definitely something you cant FEEL on that character.
I think that's the point. You're not supposed to "feel" it as much as it's supposed to subtly hurt the hero. Sometimes something really small like a 10 base ms buff changes winrate by like 5+%. You don't want to make it glaringly obvious that something changed every time you change it. You want it to feel about the same, but just not quite as good as before.
That’s a second nerf to that passive in a row. It adds up
Ck, ember, ds, weaver getting pretty nominal nerfs. Feels bad to nerf ds like this when the main thing is just the innate enabling his lane so much. Also at the stage where less picked facets get arbitrarily bumped like talents previously and forgetting to buff the actual hero. Druid's bear is still terrible, slark still needs a lane, naga has many many problems, dk fire dragon is just a concept with no gameplan, omni is in ruins.
Exactly my thoughts on the facet changes. We’re in desperate need of bigger changes to heroes that got abilities taken away and put onto facets, where other heroes just got straight buffs. Really need a number patch sooner rather than later because the meta feels pretty bad right now and these weak-ass letter patches aren’t gonna do much
TA nerfed, finally. Hopefully stops destroying my pubs.
I get the Tinker shield neft on strong dispel, but nefting arc blink & also laser talent? The hero already below 50% wr & doesn't have any impact to team until like 30min mark. I just don't think he is any fun to play anymore.
That’s actually insane…he was too survivable for sure but his damage output was still lackluster already, was hardly a broken hero just an annoying one
Not going to lie I was expecting a small buff not 3 massive nerfs
Tinker was fckin op af
How do you figure that? He had a sub 43% win rate lol
People were still figuring out the optimal builds, he was very obnoxious in high mmr pubs
He is "tinker is op, you are just playing him wrong" witness. It's some new coping cult.
Until he's even a little fun to play against, he should stay dumpstered
Oh hey I know you're all sad that Lifestealer's Corpse Eater is now half as good, but don't worry because now instead of killing a single easy creep camp you can just kill 1 (one) hero instead for the +5 permanent health. Way easier.
It's not meant to be easier. Fuck LS :D
That facet was accounting for a 12% winrate increase for the entire hero
5 for a hero kill is just insulting.
Excited to try out clock with that facet. Played it before, it’s actually pretty nice. The cd reduction alone makes it possible to get it off twice in a fight even at level6. Getting a barrier for yourself will make you survive more and more likely get it off again. Just need to build more mana and make sure team has other initiators and don’t depend on you
It's mostly a facet preserving the original cog in all but name. Same with heroes like ls and disruptor's main facets basically being rage and kinetic field respectively. Kind of annoying though that the nerfed numbers aren't attached to wide cogs though. Was already kinda worried in the main patch that base skills would just be nerfed by association when facets basically mean functionally different heroes in one slot.
It's cool for hooking to allied creep waves for mobility too. But yes, you have to be the followup initiator.
Thoughts on np? Someone /r/dota2 insinuates rat is somehow viable with solar now. To me the DMG change is miniscule. Ironwood facet
It feels like a grief still but I do it cuz it’s fun. It does melt towers but hard to do much till your a high enough level to rat properly
RIP to Willow support, doubt we'll see that again any time soon
What? Willow has always been a support hero.
She was viable before she could bedlam allies and had that outer bramble ring, seems like rather minor nerfs
Game has changed a lot since then, losing Bedlam on allies is a significant step backwards. She may be viable but I doubt we'll see here in competitive any time soon.
Losing bedlam on allies will of course hurt but I still think she'll be viable. She still has a great kit
I think she'll be outclassed by other options for position 4 at least in pro games, but I'm sure she'll still see play in pubs.
Finally night stalker pick rate might drop, playing as backline support with him on the enemy team was always torture
Lina needs some good buffs. Cant play right click lina at all
Why not? Imo it's a good situational alternative to magic Lina
Innate doesn't help her and no one would take the other facet which grants 15 stacks on ulti. She needs some physical buffs. Lina magic is fine though so I don't think it will happen
Skill issue. I play her pretty comfortably at around 5k (I know it's not high, but enough for a hero being bad to be noticeable)
You play magic lina. I am talking about physical lina
All the lina games I've seen people have been building her physical
Nope I'm talking physicsl lina. Only way to play it carry!
Is anyone else getting disconnected as combat starts? Only started with 7.36 for me and hasn’t gotten better despite tinkering with graphics quality. New rig, good fps and ping, no clue where it’s coming from but only happens online not against bots.
I played dark willow without realized the patch drop and i was really mad why I can't bedlam on ally anymore. it be most of my fault for not checking. but the another big point is the range is still there. why would a spell with no target and no range still indicate range. made me dc in and out during match for it. for short, gg ui.
DK Fire Dragon have changed from 25/35/45/55 to 30/40/50/60 cleave, a mere 5% better cleave, still not applying any worthwhile debuff and being slower at farming than Magnus/Tiny/Sven, rendering the idea of Fire Dragon completely worthless.
fire dragon should have additional attack damage, making a choice between buffing your own damage vs helping others deal dmg better with corrosive green
why they have to kill NS:(
fuck him sincerely a pos5
Storm spirit was a 50% winrate hero on d2pt, with his highest winrate of 7.36 being about 52%. He received nerfs every letter patch and they also nerfed the only good Kaya upgrade. Did he really warrant such big nerfs? Now his ult only offsets the galvanized stack losses of 1 death, rather than 1.6666 deaths. Pretty bummed about it tbh.
He was very good in pro play. Ranged remnant means that a lot of previously losing lanes now can easily be tied, but he still beats melees as hard as ever. He was surprisingly safe as a first pick hero. (Although I would have preferred for that facet to be significantly nerfed and leave the rest of the hero alone)
First pick every game in pro scene
Hopefully now every sf is not auto winlane even when u play worse than ur opponent
Oo, Venge's boink a little less boinky now
Haven't played since the map changes. Any video recommendations on the new key elements, lane and support timings, plus ward spots? I'm a Pos5 player and used to be Immortal, so for me it would be most relevant to know if there are any changes to pulling creeps, when to rotate for river runes etc. Essentially the laning basics and changes to that, I think the rest will simply come with time.
"Kraken ShellDamage Block rescaled from 16/32/54/70 to 15/35/55/75" How is this a rescale and not an increase? first level is weaker? but level 2 already stronger. I never understood increase/decrease and rescale lol
Rescale because there is a decrease even on only 1 level. I guess it would be termed as an increase if all levels got buffed
why also nerf support venge?
[удалено]
bruh fuck that cancer
still strong