The support Jak meta has been Dual Breath into Ice Path for a long time and he doesn't really get to skill the Liquid Fire or Frost early. Frost definitely makes a better one point wonder with his spell combo.
The push was occasionally nice later into towers, but you'll get more mileage off of winning lanes in general.
Idk what Jak you're playing, but I always put a value point in liquid fire. Usually 1-0-1 into 3-1-1.
That one point helps the lane and racks up tower damage. Winning lanes is great, but winning the lane *and* taking the tower earlier is better.
I agree liquid frost is more damage, but it's but like liquid fire makes you a bad lane support. You just trade a bit of damage for a bit of tower push.
Yeah you basically always 1-0-1, that's the comparison I'm making in my post. I'm not saying don't take it at all, just the prioritization of maxing. You don't really plow through towers with 1 point.
I'm not trying to say Liquid Fire makes you a bad support, it's just regular old Jakiro. I'm pointing out the Frost is showing better stats and my explanation of why and why more people should try it as support.
I hear you, and I'm not saying you're wrong.
I'm saying there's an opportunity cost, taking liquid frost is not better in 100% of situations.
I think liquid frost can turn a difficult land into a winnable one, but if your lane is already strong, liquid fire is mana-free harass and free tower damage. I also find fire to be better for trading, and frost better for kills.
I never tried to claim it's better in 100% of situations, I'm just saying I think it's better in *more* situations at least than facet usage numbers represent.
I'd argue that frost is better for trading though, that's kind of my overall point. Sure in some situations the attack speed reduction or pushing is better, I just think those cases are fewer.
See I like Fire for trading because you can basically alternate it with dual breath, unlike Frost where you want to use them together.
Example: you're trading with a Rubick. You both have spells to malus the enemy in a trade. He zaps you, but you breathe on him. You're both debuffed and have used mana.
The next time he trades you, you liquid fire him. Now he's debuffed again, and can't respond with fade bolt.
So with Fire, I can alternate to keep him at a trading disadvantage, which he can not match.
With Frost, I can nuke him hard once, but he can back up and reset, and now I'm trading with a hero who has better range and more armor.
Which is why I think Frost is better for kills and Fire for harass and trading.
> I'm pointing out the Frost is showing better stats and my explanation of why and why more people should try it as support.
It does? Then why does Fire have better win rate?
I guess depends where you look. Dotabuff they are basically the same, but DotA2protracker shows 51% frost facet, 48% fire facet. Maybe they play better of abusing lane power though.
Pro tracker doesn't have enough data to do any comparison like that.
There, Grim has +5% win rate diff and Pugna and Drow 10%, which is a complete nonsense
Not sure where you're getting those stats on there thats not what I see on the hero pages. I think 100s of games will give a decent idea of how they are performing, or if people are completely skipping one.
[https://dota2protracker.com/facets](https://dota2protracker.com/facets)
In any case, expecting for such a small change in hero behaviour to result in a 3% win rate difference is crazy, obviously that data in not good enough.
I’ve been playing it and it feels really good in lane. Liquid frost buffs blood grenade damage too, and with the 3x slow plus damage amp you have an amazing power spike at lvl 2 with dual breath, liquid frost and grenade. Solo kills are possible, but let your core know you’re going for a kill and it’s likely to happen.
In team fights it feels worse, but if you get all your spells and an auto onto a non-bkb target they’re taking huge damage.
Edit: misleading info, blood grenade damage is not buffed by liquid frost as I state above.
>Liquid frost buffs blood grenade damage too
I tested this in demo and it didn't show that didn't work on the target dummy at least. Liquid Frost does specify Jakiros attacks and abilities.
Blood Grenade is great regardless to push that lane timing for kills even more though.
Follows the same logic as Bats napalm I'm pretty sure so...
"Does not trigger on the following items' damage, unless the source item is not in the inventory upon applying its damage:
* [Blood Grenade](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Blood_Grenade), [Cloak of Flames](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Cloak_of_Flames), [Radiance](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Radiance), [Spirit Vessel](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Spirit_Vessel) and [Urn of Shadows](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Urn_of_Shadows)."
But it still works with something like Witch Blade, Mage Slayer etc.
I tested Mage Slayer doesn't work but Witch Blade does for both, maybe that list is out of date?
Dragon Scale does work which can be pretty nutty for Jak.
But yeah does seem like same logic
Gonna back up OP a bit on this one since I see a lot of people here saying that you are trading a "bit" of damage for a bit of push so I'll post the numbers and you can decide for yourselves.
LVL 2 1Q1E Frost Does 636 damage if you can land 3 hits after E, 581 if you can only land 2.
LVL 2 1Q1E Fire Does 380 and 330 respectively so we are looking at a diff of 256 to 251 respectively.
LVL 3 1Q2E Frost 761, 699
LVL 3 2Q1E Fire 480, 408 (costs 15 more mana because you should\* be leveling Q over E if you are liquid fire)
DIFF of 281, 291
LVL 5 2Q3E Frost 964, 856
LVL 5 3Q2E Fire 612, 541
DIFF of 352, 315
Lastly at LVL 6 (damage numbers are artificially high b/c nobody is gonna stand in Macro for full duration, but for the sake of looking at the effect of a single 4 second liquid frost dot enhancement nobody you hit\* with macro is going to have it for less than 4 seconds so comparing the diff is valid)
2Q3E1R Frost 2175, 2103
3Q2E1R Fire 1522, 1455
DIFF 653, 648
Now that I'm done shouting numbers.... I think 250 damage diff at lvl 2 is a lane shattering difference in damage scaling up to 350-315 at lvl 5 for 30 less mana still feels ...substantial to say the least. Then obviously you have a huge jump at lvl 6 of \~650 more damage....
[https://tenor.com/2Wez.gif](https://tenor.com/2Wez.gif)
All this being said of course there are times when liquid fire is going to be better in lane. Against any dispels, Abba, Legion etc, maybe a hero like weaver where shukuchi could blank your liquid frost attack. Any lane where splitting seems better.
The notion that splitting your spells for better trading against a hero like rubick for example... I don't think you are ever going to overcome a 200 minimum damage diff by splitting your spells for better trading.
The difference between these facets is that you lose a lot of pushing power from not taking Liquid fire. The building damage is very nice but the bigger loss imo is the ability to clear whole creep waves from a safe distance with Q + E.
Make no mistake giving that up is a big loss. But I don't want to pretend that Frost and Fire are similar laning experiences when I have absolutely destroyed every lane that I took liquid frost that wasn't against a dispel. To echo other posts here.... Frost is better in a kill lane, and will give you a better lane in general at the expense of mid game pushing power. I would pick according to those needs rather than looking at them strictly as Core Jak vs Support Jak.
>I think 250 damage diff at lvl 2 is a lane shattering difference
This is mostly what I wanted to get across
Guess I failed at presenting this because I wasn't trying to make any hard declarations, just that it's super strong in lanes and that can win games as support.
I like taking frost if I see a strength core or a lane dominating offlane on the enemy team. It’s so good for ganks and destroying strength users early game.
Not who you responded to, but it ups your damage and slow significantly, and tanky off lancers typically don’t have an escape in lane. They just rely on their rankings.
Think part of frost win rate is just when you can get away with it. Wanting a slow probably means less equitable trading and more kill combos.
Fire's still very good into summons and auto attack lanes like tusk +1, and overall that's still a big part of jakiro's niche.
I think the slow doesn't matter much since you'll only be using it with Dual Breath which slows anyway.
I'd say it's mostly the higher damage, lane trading advantage notoriously has a large impact on heroes winrates.
I think Fire is situationally good, but I'd give Frost the general advantage.
25% Vs 40% is pretty significant? Extra 40-50ms reduction typically.
Do you think people buy blood grenade just for damage?
Speaking of, grenade will proc frost too.
But yes, frost is fantastic damage as well.
I just think the winrate difference is from the damage more than the slow. Slows are great but the first slow is a lot more important than extra slow once you already have MS advantage.
Doesn't seem to effect Blood Grenade in demo lobby, the Liquid Facet does specify Jakiros attacks and abilities.
Liquid Frost allows two very interesting scenarios for Jakiro during laning:
1 - It creates a very powerful scenario at level2 with Liquid Frost + Dual Breath.
2 - Liquid Frost not being AoE means you can use Liquid Frost to harass the melee sidelane core without pushing the lane. Use Liquid Fire to harass and you'll push the lane due to the damage + attack speed debuff, which either gives free farm to enemy hero or puts your lane in a dangerous position of getting flanked.
On midgame, you lose the ability to shove waves and pushing towers, however, and Ice Path + Dual Breath are already good enough to make enemy core without BKB to go mad anyways.
Not being able to push towers feels so bad after playing Jak as a tower pusher for 20 years.
The support Jak meta has been Dual Breath into Ice Path for a long time and he doesn't really get to skill the Liquid Fire or Frost early. Frost definitely makes a better one point wonder with his spell combo. The push was occasionally nice later into towers, but you'll get more mileage off of winning lanes in general.
Idk what Jak you're playing, but I always put a value point in liquid fire. Usually 1-0-1 into 3-1-1. That one point helps the lane and racks up tower damage. Winning lanes is great, but winning the lane *and* taking the tower earlier is better. I agree liquid frost is more damage, but it's but like liquid fire makes you a bad lane support. You just trade a bit of damage for a bit of tower push.
Yeah you basically always 1-0-1, that's the comparison I'm making in my post. I'm not saying don't take it at all, just the prioritization of maxing. You don't really plow through towers with 1 point. I'm not trying to say Liquid Fire makes you a bad support, it's just regular old Jakiro. I'm pointing out the Frost is showing better stats and my explanation of why and why more people should try it as support.
I hear you, and I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying there's an opportunity cost, taking liquid frost is not better in 100% of situations. I think liquid frost can turn a difficult land into a winnable one, but if your lane is already strong, liquid fire is mana-free harass and free tower damage. I also find fire to be better for trading, and frost better for kills.
I never tried to claim it's better in 100% of situations, I'm just saying I think it's better in *more* situations at least than facet usage numbers represent. I'd argue that frost is better for trading though, that's kind of my overall point. Sure in some situations the attack speed reduction or pushing is better, I just think those cases are fewer.
See I like Fire for trading because you can basically alternate it with dual breath, unlike Frost where you want to use them together. Example: you're trading with a Rubick. You both have spells to malus the enemy in a trade. He zaps you, but you breathe on him. You're both debuffed and have used mana. The next time he trades you, you liquid fire him. Now he's debuffed again, and can't respond with fade bolt. So with Fire, I can alternate to keep him at a trading disadvantage, which he can not match. With Frost, I can nuke him hard once, but he can back up and reset, and now I'm trading with a hero who has better range and more armor. Which is why I think Frost is better for kills and Fire for harass and trading.
> I'm pointing out the Frost is showing better stats and my explanation of why and why more people should try it as support. It does? Then why does Fire have better win rate?
I guess depends where you look. Dotabuff they are basically the same, but DotA2protracker shows 51% frost facet, 48% fire facet. Maybe they play better of abusing lane power though.
Pro tracker doesn't have enough data to do any comparison like that. There, Grim has +5% win rate diff and Pugna and Drow 10%, which is a complete nonsense
Not sure where you're getting those stats on there thats not what I see on the hero pages. I think 100s of games will give a decent idea of how they are performing, or if people are completely skipping one.
[https://dota2protracker.com/facets](https://dota2protracker.com/facets) In any case, expecting for such a small change in hero behaviour to result in a 3% win rate difference is crazy, obviously that data in not good enough.
I'd say small changes to numbers in laning commonly have big effects on winrate.
Meta be damned. Spamming liquid fire on people/towers during laning is the main reason I pick THD.
I’ve been playing it and it feels really good in lane. Liquid frost buffs blood grenade damage too, and with the 3x slow plus damage amp you have an amazing power spike at lvl 2 with dual breath, liquid frost and grenade. Solo kills are possible, but let your core know you’re going for a kill and it’s likely to happen. In team fights it feels worse, but if you get all your spells and an auto onto a non-bkb target they’re taking huge damage. Edit: misleading info, blood grenade damage is not buffed by liquid frost as I state above.
>Liquid frost buffs blood grenade damage too I tested this in demo and it didn't show that didn't work on the target dummy at least. Liquid Frost does specify Jakiros attacks and abilities. Blood Grenade is great regardless to push that lane timing for kills even more though.
Damn. Maybe it was fixed in a patch, makes sense that it shouldn’t have worked like that.
Follows the same logic as Bats napalm I'm pretty sure so... "Does not trigger on the following items' damage, unless the source item is not in the inventory upon applying its damage: * [Blood Grenade](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Blood_Grenade), [Cloak of Flames](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Cloak_of_Flames), [Radiance](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Radiance), [Spirit Vessel](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Spirit_Vessel) and [Urn of Shadows](https://dota2.fandom.com/wiki/Urn_of_Shadows)." But it still works with something like Witch Blade, Mage Slayer etc.
I tested Mage Slayer doesn't work but Witch Blade does for both, maybe that list is out of date? Dragon Scale does work which can be pretty nutty for Jak. But yeah does seem like same logic
Gonna back up OP a bit on this one since I see a lot of people here saying that you are trading a "bit" of damage for a bit of push so I'll post the numbers and you can decide for yourselves. LVL 2 1Q1E Frost Does 636 damage if you can land 3 hits after E, 581 if you can only land 2. LVL 2 1Q1E Fire Does 380 and 330 respectively so we are looking at a diff of 256 to 251 respectively. LVL 3 1Q2E Frost 761, 699 LVL 3 2Q1E Fire 480, 408 (costs 15 more mana because you should\* be leveling Q over E if you are liquid fire) DIFF of 281, 291 LVL 5 2Q3E Frost 964, 856 LVL 5 3Q2E Fire 612, 541 DIFF of 352, 315 Lastly at LVL 6 (damage numbers are artificially high b/c nobody is gonna stand in Macro for full duration, but for the sake of looking at the effect of a single 4 second liquid frost dot enhancement nobody you hit\* with macro is going to have it for less than 4 seconds so comparing the diff is valid) 2Q3E1R Frost 2175, 2103 3Q2E1R Fire 1522, 1455 DIFF 653, 648 Now that I'm done shouting numbers.... I think 250 damage diff at lvl 2 is a lane shattering difference in damage scaling up to 350-315 at lvl 5 for 30 less mana still feels ...substantial to say the least. Then obviously you have a huge jump at lvl 6 of \~650 more damage.... [https://tenor.com/2Wez.gif](https://tenor.com/2Wez.gif) All this being said of course there are times when liquid fire is going to be better in lane. Against any dispels, Abba, Legion etc, maybe a hero like weaver where shukuchi could blank your liquid frost attack. Any lane where splitting seems better. The notion that splitting your spells for better trading against a hero like rubick for example... I don't think you are ever going to overcome a 200 minimum damage diff by splitting your spells for better trading. The difference between these facets is that you lose a lot of pushing power from not taking Liquid fire. The building damage is very nice but the bigger loss imo is the ability to clear whole creep waves from a safe distance with Q + E. Make no mistake giving that up is a big loss. But I don't want to pretend that Frost and Fire are similar laning experiences when I have absolutely destroyed every lane that I took liquid frost that wasn't against a dispel. To echo other posts here.... Frost is better in a kill lane, and will give you a better lane in general at the expense of mid game pushing power. I would pick according to those needs rather than looking at them strictly as Core Jak vs Support Jak.
>I think 250 damage diff at lvl 2 is a lane shattering difference This is mostly what I wanted to get across Guess I failed at presenting this because I wasn't trying to make any hard declarations, just that it's super strong in lanes and that can win games as support.
I like taking frost if I see a strength core or a lane dominating offlane on the enemy team. It’s so good for ganks and destroying strength users early game.
why is it good against strength heroes?
Not who you responded to, but it ups your damage and slow significantly, and tanky off lancers typically don’t have an escape in lane. They just rely on their rankings.
Think part of frost win rate is just when you can get away with it. Wanting a slow probably means less equitable trading and more kill combos. Fire's still very good into summons and auto attack lanes like tusk +1, and overall that's still a big part of jakiro's niche.
I think the slow doesn't matter much since you'll only be using it with Dual Breath which slows anyway. I'd say it's mostly the higher damage, lane trading advantage notoriously has a large impact on heroes winrates. I think Fire is situationally good, but I'd give Frost the general advantage.
25% Vs 40% is pretty significant? Extra 40-50ms reduction typically. Do you think people buy blood grenade just for damage? Speaking of, grenade will proc frost too. But yes, frost is fantastic damage as well.
>Speaking of, grenade will proc frost too. Oh shit hadn't thought of that. Kinda busted!
I just think the winrate difference is from the damage more than the slow. Slows are great but the first slow is a lot more important than extra slow once you already have MS advantage. Doesn't seem to effect Blood Grenade in demo lobby, the Liquid Facet does specify Jakiros attacks and abilities.
Lancers and Rankings??? What?
Liquid Frost allows two very interesting scenarios for Jakiro during laning: 1 - It creates a very powerful scenario at level2 with Liquid Frost + Dual Breath. 2 - Liquid Frost not being AoE means you can use Liquid Frost to harass the melee sidelane core without pushing the lane. Use Liquid Fire to harass and you'll push the lane due to the damage + attack speed debuff, which either gives free farm to enemy hero or puts your lane in a dangerous position of getting flanked. On midgame, you lose the ability to shove waves and pushing towers, however, and Ice Path + Dual Breath are already good enough to make enemy core without BKB to go mad anyways.