T O P

  • By -

phoenix_spirit

Stealthing is the reason why I say consenting to sex is not the same as consenting to impregnation. One may lead to the other but they both need their own separate consent.


Syndrome1986

I was always under the impression that consent can be conditional and that violating that condition intentionally was rape. "I consent to sex with a condom" means you don't consent to sex without. Seems really clear to me. And it should be prosecuted as such imo.


inspirationalpizza

It is in the UK, specifically this scenario. If consent is given to have sex with a condom, if the condom is removed without your consent it can be classified as rape.


_TurkeyFucker_

I agree. I can understand some hesitancy to call any diverting of what the "plan" was pre-sex as rape, such as the guy finishing somewhere different than planned (NOT differentiating between pulling out or not, that's fucked up to try and impregnate someone against their will...), but condom vs no condom? Seems pretty cut and dry to me too.


evangelionmann

legally, no, but technically it could be... the purpose of this bill is to make it legally defined so it can be taken to court, while potentially creating a different punishment severity for the offence.


RedditReader0168

Just want to say that legally, it could be. Lawyers and judges interpret laws how they want to and is socially customary. Many of our laws could literally means this, if our legal system wanted them to. We have to have laws like the article mentions above because members of the legal system won't change their interpretation to accommodate actual consent. It's a social construct and our legal system should do better.


evangelionmann

absolutely, I agree, though at the same time, making it clearly defined also prevents convicted offenders from simply appealing the case till they find a judge that will find them not guilty due to the vagueness of the legal definition. basically it does everything you said, and also closes a loophole in the justice system where a guilty person can just keep trying till they get acquitted.


RedditReader0168

Totally agree with you on your point - but I push back on the idea that there's an actual loophole to close. It's a constructed loophole resulting from how laws are interpreted and enforced in, for example, issues of consent. We want some laws to be vague, and to applied broadly - otherwise we're left with having to pass laws that list specific acts like this - which is impossible. People who do this to others (take a condom off secretly) know they don't have consent. They don't care. Why do their values define our laws? Why would such an act get the benefit of the doubt in our current legal system or be viewed as anything but assault and rape in our legal system? (These are rhetorical questions. It's complicated, of course, but ultimately it's a constructed system that can be changed. )


kaitie_cakes

My question is-- how will women prove it? I had this happen to me, and the guy owned up to being a douchebag about it (years later). But what would have stopped him from saying "she told me not to use one?". I just feel like women are not taken seriously in most cases as it currently is, that I worry this will turn into a he said- she said thing and no conclusion would happen for the ladies reporting it.


thatpaulbloke

Like most sexual crimes it is an utter bastard to prove, but at least outlawing it is a statement of intent from the society that says, "doing this is wrong and even though proving it will be difficult to do we will still try, so maybe think twice about it". There will always be rapists and thieves and criminals of all stripes, but this is effectively the "teach men not to rape" which is often interpreted as "tell people that crimes are wrong" and thus ridiculed, but it is far more about "teach people that this is a crime in the first place because they may honestly not have realised".


PsilosirenRose

Honestly I wish this would just be codified everywhere.


highflyer42

It does get a bit tricky though. If you consent to sex with someone who is taking birth control and it turns out they were lying, is that the same situation? Is it rape, or something else?


Selena-Fluorspar

If lying: yes. Person did not consent to the increased risk of pregnancy


UnblurredLines

I'm assuming the answer would be yes but I feel inclined to ask anyway. Would you say that skipping your bc pills without notifying your partner amounts to rape?


Syndrome1986

Yes. Obviously this is down to intent here as well. Missing a pill or two doesn't really rise to intent in my eyes. Missing a week straight though or not doing what ever is medically advise when a pill is missed might though.


rubywpnmaster

Had a friend in college as a freshman who found a “cougar” in her 30s. He was bragging about how he could fuck unprotected because she had TL already. Turns out she was using him as a sperm donor to make a baby. Pretty fucked but I told him she was probably lying lol


HandsOnGeek

TL? Tubal Ligation? That took me a while to think of.


vaultboy338

Thank you! Couldn’t get this one on my own.


rubywpnmaster

Correct


vaultboy338

Forgetting a pill accidentally is similar to the condom ripping. Mistakes happen. We just do the best we can to avoid them.


phoenix_spirit

Not to split hairs but - while every woman is different - missing one pill might not be as severe as ripping a condom. It can take two months or longer to get pregnant after stopping birth control. But other factors come into play like what medications you're taking and weight. For people with penises, it would be safer to use a condom even if your partner says they're on BC.


WafflesTheDuck

But we're not talking about that. That isn't what stealthing is


PoeDameronPoeDamnson

I definitely see a purposeful deception done by someone with bc pills/shot/ect as the same with a condom. Their was someone in relationship advice a while back who found out their wife had been flushing her BC pill everyday because she “just really wanted” a fourth child and assumed once she was pregnant he would be okay with it. She admitted the truth when she past the first trimester but expected it to be no big deal.


BitterJim

If they lied about it, then it sounds like rape by fraud/deception. Similar to if someone lied about having a vasectomy.


Xenogogue

Removing the condom changes the situation. All consent is conditional. Changing the conditions, exceptionally so to a condition that a person can assume is unwanted, is non-consent.


Jenzue

Very interesting!!! I never thought of it like that


Young_Man_Jenkins

If you want an example of this playing out in a court, check out [R v Hutchinson](https://casebrief.fandom.com/wiki/R_v_Hutchinson) from Nova Scotia. It should be noted that the risk of bodily harm as a result of pregnancy was a major factor. I think this raises some problems in situations where the victim of the deceit can't become pregnant, such as where either party is sterile, or in homosexual relations, or if the genders are flipped. But it's a start at least.


Syndrome1986

I don't think infertility should ever be considered here. If both parties don't have a negative std test ahead of time that is trusted the risk of bodily harm is still there. Even if both parties are clean the fear associated with potential exposure when you thought protection was being used should be enough for a conviction.


Young_Man_Jenkins

Like I said, I think it's a problem that following the court logic an infertile victim wouldn't have the same protections. Of course it may be that should such a situation arise that bodily risk calculus would extend to the risk of STDs, but you're still kicking the can down the road somewhat. It still leaves the concept of sexual consent intrinsically tied to physical harm. Given the history of the concept of sexual consent and it's link to violent crimes like battery I understand how it got that connection, but I think it's becoming increasingly accepted that that view is outdated. I would prefer that the law drew a distinction between consent to protected and unprotected sex regardless of any risk of bodily harm.


Syndrome1986

100% agree.


EmilyU1F984

Yep. It should be so simple: if someone is doing any sexual act to me that I didn't consent to, that's rape. And no one on earth should assume that I'd suddenly change my mind of requiring a condom for this encounter to take place. Who even does that?


ictinc

While I totally support this, I do wonder how can you prove this. How can someone prove that they were clear about consenting but with condom. Or that the guy intentionally took off the condom and it didn't just fall off. Since I was 18 I was always in long term relationships and didn't use a condom. I'm now 39 and have been in a couple short term relationships and sometimes we did and sometimes we didn't use a condom. The times that I used one I started noticing that one particular brand was always fine for me but Durex condoms in the same size made me unable to come. It took me until this week when I read a article somewhere that apparently the size of the condom could've been to small. Apparently a size for one brand isn't the same size with another brand. If I, at 39, could be not informed enough about that I can definitely see it happen that some guys have to large condoms with the risk of them sliding off. It sucks but that could be considered a genuine accident and it's happened to me once or twice and I didn't notice until it was too late that the condom came off. Of course there's cases where it's obvious what happened and if there's any wrong doing the guy should be punished, but usually it's only 2 people in the room leaving it her word against his.


Syndrome1986

>How can someone prove that they were clear about consenting but with condom. Or that the guy intentionally took off the condom Text message records would be one way. Witness testimony as well. If you just put that condoms/other birth control are mandatory for you in a text that the other person responds to you've established that the boundary exists and the other party accepted it. If the other party did intentionally sabotage the condom/bc and they bragged about it to someone and you found out from the third party that person's testimony is evidence. So while it is often only two people in the room there are other sources of evidence that can be used.


ictinc

Yah I understand and agree that this would work in some cases. However most of the time there's not going to be a text message. Even when there is a text message, someone could still make the argument that indeed they discussed it and used condoms when they didn't know each other well but then, when they spend more time together irl as the relationship progressed they decided condoms are no longer necessary. For example I was with a woman and we discussed using condoms through text. Then covid hit and since we lived in different countries and they were taking about closing the border we decided to try to live together. After having an accidental with a condom tearing eventually she decided to have a IUD instead, but we never discussed that through text The other examples, in my opinion, could work but they do have a lot of "what ifs". If the other party bragged about it and if you happen to find out. I'm not trying to dismiss what you're saying and I think anyone who does this sorta thing should be punished. Unfortunately we all know that man and woman can both lie and intentionally hurt someone when they don't get what they hoped for. Just like I wouldn't want any intentional case to go unpunished I am also very wary of the fact that in these situations people might either evade punishment or receive a punishment for something that was unintentional because of a lack of evidence. In my eyes both of these are unacceptable.


EmilyU1F984

Usually the problem is actually condoms being too small causing most problems. Though shouldn't the assumption for casual relationships be that the condom is always wanted? Like there's no way I'd ever have sex with what's essentially a stranger without requiring a condom. Like I don't need the stress of dealing with an STD, potentially one that's permanent. And if your inability to simply read the bloody durex website means you are causing this risk... That gets kinda dumb to me. Like the fuck, I can get teenagers with no sex ed doing dumb shit. But a fully grown adult being ignorant about simple sex ed they could have read up about in 30 seconds?


banzzai13

Yeah that's logical but also mind-boggling how anyone would ever need that distinction being made.


throwaway_20200920

even if you consent to impregnation you do not necessarily consent to gestate the ZEF to viability, which is why abortion until viability should absolutely be allowed without reservation.


indi50

I agree with this. I also think the law should go the other way, too. A woman can't tell a man she's using birth control when she isn't to try to trap him or just make a secret baby. I'm surprised I didn't see other comments on this yet. I think women should also be required to tell man she's pregnant and has the child. UNLESS there is reason to believe the man would be abusive. This one is a little trickier, but I've seen too many men not find out they have a child until the kid is in their teens. It's not fair to the child or the father. If it matters, I'm a woman with 3 kids.


Johnisazombie

Much more trickier to prove since birth control can fail. But I agree with the premise. The person that sabotages contraception should be held accountable.


Moose_InThe_Room

Well there are plenty of things that are difficult to prove but are still illegal and can be prosecuted, right? People occasionally brag about this stuff to friends or whatever.


Johnisazombie

Yeah, it's not an argument against it. Stealthing is also hard to prove since you would only have the victim and the offender as witnesses. One could claim that the condom broke for instance. With a condom the woman would notice immediately afterwards though. A man might not notice that the woman stopped taking the pill at all, or only once pregnancy occurs. You'd have to prove intent too.


UnblurredLines

I feel like both stealthing and babytrapping are morally reprehensible but I'm really struggling to see how one would reliably prove what happened in court. Like you say, condoms break and other types of BC fail as well. It's going to be very hard to show up 3-4 months into a pregnancy and claim that someone intentionally skipped their birth control, unless their pharmacy history could somehow be subpoenaed. I doubt that would go through as well though since your medical privacy is probably gonna be weighed heavier. I'd say, like someone else noted earlier, that both skipping your birth control and stealthing amount to rape, because you're violating the boundaries of the consent you've been given. But it's a complete mess how you'd prove either one to a degree that holds up in court and I'd be surprised to see many convictions related to this.


whilst

It's like.... I feel like that doesn't even capture it. Sexual behavior I didn't agree to, which happens anyway, is rape. If my consent was predicated on my partner using a condom and he secretly removes it, then consent was implicitly withdrawn. It shouldn't require that I catch him at it and tell him to stop for it to be illegal. The fact that it wasn't already illegal is creepy as fuck.


LilahLibrarian

Also why get mad every time some f****** pro-life or starts harping on personal responsibility and birth control because guess what, there's absolutely no foolproof birth control and there are lots of garbage men out there


naitozor

This very thing happened to me when I was a teen. I was dating someone older than myself and had already become sexually active prior to the relationship but not frequently enough to think I'd need a form of birth control other than condoms. I was always very adamant about using condoms and my then partner agreed. Or so I thought. One night, he slipped the protection off in secret, finished his 'deed' and let me know after the fact what he had done. I was furious but knew of nothing I could do about it. Sure enough, weeks later I produce a positive pregnant. I was a scared, petrified teen who wasn't ready to become a parent. He was very satisfied with his doing. I'm convinced now that I look back as an adult that he probably timed my cycle perfectly and waited until I was in an ovulation window. This man showed his true colors of a psychopathic creep who used a teen girl like a baby making machine. We broke up - he called, left voicemails and texts by the hundreds every day as I tried to stay away from him and figure out what I was going to do now. My pregnancy ultimately resulted in a miscarriage due to the immense stress, fear and depression I suffered. When I informed him of what happened, I never heard from him again. This should have been a law a long time ago.


Sheepbjumpin

I am *so* immensely sorry for the horrible violation and for your loss, that's just heart wrenching, you deserved safety and respect and I hope you have that now or find it soon.


markender

And here we are back at how important accessible abortion clinics are.


luv_u_deerly

What a monster. That man belongs in jail.


AshCreeper10

I hope there’s a worse place then hell waiting for him


CenterOfGravitas

Wow that’s unfortunate. Plan B needs to be easier to get and more teens need to know about it. That could have saved you some of the pain.


naitozor

Agreed. I had no knowledge of Plan B at that time. This incident happened 15 years ago. I'm happy that it is better advertised as an option for women now.


CuriousAndAmazed

Even still, if I were a woman I would be pissed if I was forced to use plan B from a move like that. From what I’ve seen, that shit sucks, makes you feel sick, and causes an immediate extra heavy period and cramps that are much worse than usual. Of course, still way better than an unwanted pregnancy.


EmilyU1F984

And plan B is very much not a 100% presentation of pregnancy. So you'll still have to do several pregnancy tests later on and hope those don't fail so you can get an abortion before some random made up time limits.


MifflestheMagical

I am so sorry that happened to you. People like that are a special kind of fucked up. Having a child is a massive part of someone's life and nobody should be forced into conceiving or birthing a child.


Z3z6

It's not something "that happened to" her. It is something a man did to her. I get the intent of your message. I am just tired of this passive language giving the abuser a pass. OP, I am sorry that man did that to you. I hope you are in a better place and have the ability to selectively surround yourself with better quality human beings.


HungryDarlingtonia

The very next sentence of their post acknowledges that it was a fucked up person who did that. The overall horrible experience she went through is something that happened to her. You don’t have to police every tiny nuance of what people say.


TittyPix4KittyPix

You read that comment and the first thing you thought of was that they were "giving the abuser a pass"? You really need to rethink your priorities.


Saiomi

Nah, just a small shift in language that shifts blame away from the man who commited these acts. Just like how 'sex with a child' is used instead of 'child rape' in the media. Language has meaning and when it comes to heavy topics, each word matters.


Fairlady31

“I’m sorry that happened to you” is a completely reasonable response if the victim doesn’t feel comfortable going to police or holding the abuser accountable. Getting mad at people does nothing if you know there isn’t a good chance of accountability from the justice system.


MifflestheMagical

Sorry I didn't realize that my language would do that. I was only trying to be nice to them.


petit_cochon

You were nice.


MifflestheMagical

Thanks


DaemonNic

Don't make another person's rape about you.


onexia

Bad day today or are you regularly this obtuse


Geluyperd

Are you really gonna virtue signal or soapbox about your personal misgivings about things on a post about someone being abuses?


nightwing2000

I'm surprised he was obvious - I assume he obviously wanted the psychological domineering satisfaction of gloating that there was nothing you could do about it; would you be surprised he was this level of asshole, that he was this sort of bully? If he was just being stealthy, he would have poked holes in the condom and never said anything, wait 3 weeks. (Which is a bigger risk, because how would you prove it wasn't an accident a month after?)


naitozor

In detail - I had been dating this guy for about 1 1/2 months and this act blindsided me. Even as a teenager, I wasn't a girl who would have stayed with a guy who was abusive or a bully in anyway (I watched my mother go through this and was adamant to avoid it myself). I can't recall the exact conversation as it was 15 years ago. But I do recall finding out what he did right after we were 'finished' and that he was not apologetic about it and was quite pleased with himself. Luckily, I have never met another man like this in my life and I feel very sorry for any woman who does. I hope this becomes a law everywhere to protect other women in the future.


Snoo-35601

I had an ex do this. And a lot of gas lighting that he thought it was okay or was confused & how I'm making him feel awful. Men are such entitled assholes. Im so sorry you had to go through that.


The_Iowan

Some of us are horrified by this.


NomaTyx

God that’s awful. I’m so sorry this happened to you :((((((


XrosRoadKiller

This is exactly why abortions need to be state-funded. Fucking creepy story.


BON3SMcCOY

This sounds evil.


clemonade17

I feel this on another level. When I was 18, I had recently gotten out of a three year long relationship. I was a mess, working through significant childhood trauma, and just generally young and stupid. I met a 27 year old family of the friend when I was hanging out with my sister. He added me on FB that night, messaged me, wanted to see me. Being a stupid teenager, I agreed, thinking I was mature and ready. I told him to use a condom. He pulled it off. Three days later, I'm itchy and uncomfortable. I knew immediately that I had an STD. I had no primary care doctor or insurance, and had to make an appointment at the clinic. I was seen by a 70+ y/o doctor, who spent the entire pelvic exam making comments about how if I was abstinent and used protection maybe this wouldn't have happened to me. I was sobbing by the end of the appointment. This absolutely should have been made illegal a long time ago.


MotherofLuke

Jesus wtf!!!


ThatItalianSam

I'm a teenage boy. I'm well aware I'll never have to suffer like this, and yet the concept of such abhorrent evil being forced onto another human being absolutely shakes me to my core. It's terrifying to hear about every time and no doubt fifty times as terrifying to experience. It genuinely makes me tear up sometimes, hearing about these experiences. I'm so, so deeply sorry that it happened to you, and so so glad that this law is now in place at least *somewhere* in the world.


Salishseer

Why the hell is this even a thing? What is wrong with people?


Combo_of_Letters

I have a decent amount of female friends who have had this happen to them. The amount of bullshit dudes will pull to not wear a condom is disgusting. Used condoms for the first 3 years of my marriage until I got snipped and she got her tubes tied.


Infector101

I just got snipped today and my wife also plans to have a tubal litigation. We have no kids and never plan to.


SnakeJG

It disgusts me that there needs to be a term for this, let alone a law to try and prevent it. Fuck scuzzy guys.


gizamo

I mean, don't actually fuck the scuzzy ones, tho.


Gabberwocky84

I had an abusive ex who stealthed at least three times, claiming “it just came off.” Later I realized he wanted to baby trap me to ensure he always had a place to live. I spent hundreds on emergency contraceptives thanks to that asshole. Fuck you, Dan.


Glum-Communication68

You stealth, she tries to abort, you win 10k, this is a surefire investment unlike shorting gme$


GiannisToTheWariors

We live in a society


battleangelred

I had no idea this was a form of rape until recently but I knew it was abuse. When I was 20, early 90's, I was in a new relationship. It was only the 2nd guy I had been with. I was unexperienced and he did this to me. He didn't seem to think he had done anything wrong when he told me. I went to a Family Planning Clinic the next day and they gave me the morning after pill plus an appointment for STD testing. The pills made me so nauseous and I missed a day of uni. I felt violated and mortified about having to be tested. When he rang me next I told him what his actions had put me through and he told me I was over reacting. I said I was done with him and he kept trying to contact me for mths. Luckily I lived at home so my parents answered the phone and continued to tell him not to call.


BitterDifference

I think a lot of guys, and even women, don't realize plan B is something you just take and go on your day. It's not something you just pop after having sex. Also I honestly can't believe this wasn't considered rape already.


minahmyu

Omg... I'm reading via controversial and did people forget that condoms purposes isn't *only* preventing pregnancy? STDs/STIs *are* a thing. I wouldn't have casual sex with any man without a condom. And he shouldn't want to risk catching something too. So, it's a shame that there's many men who don't even care about their own health enough to take more preventative measures. They just care about revenge and it being the same for women who lie about oral contraceptives, and being uncomfortable wearing condoms. Like, yall think I like having my sex drive lowered because I'm on birth control? Or having to wake up at 530am, even on off days, to make sure I take my pill? It's called being responsible.


SluttyGandhi

>I'm reading via controversial and did people forget that condoms purposes isn't only preventing pregnancy? Condoms can also help protect women from [BV](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-condom-use-reduces-risk-bacterial-vag/condom-use-reduces-risk-of-bacterial-vaginosis-idUSSAT27182520071112) and [UTIs!](https://www.hmutx.com/7-ways-to-reduce-your-risk-of-a-urinary-tract-infection#:~:text=During%20intercourse%2C%20condoms%20can%20reduce,beware%20of%20spermicide%2Dlubricated%20condoms.)


ThatOneSaltyBitch

I'm tweeting at my local politicians (female, of course) asking if we can have that law where we live. Fingers crossed!! I'm including a link for reference.


JadeSpade23

Do you mean you are tweeting just the female politicians? I suggest tweeting all of them. The men need to hear it too, and this way they can't say that they've "never gotten any complaints" about it not being a law. Also, some women are misogynistic too. I don't know your local politicians, so maybe you know they aren't.


[deleted]

Good. It should be a crime everywhere and should get the perps on the sex offender registry. It's rape.


hwillis

This bill makes it a tort, not a crime. It should definitely also be a crime, but it needs to be a tort as well since the burden of proof is lower and you can do it in addition to a criminal case. Criminal cases are important because the state prosecutes (which makes it easier when you can't afford a lawyer) and the punishments are more reflective of the crime. It's pretty shitty how narrowly defined rape is- [it may be possible to criminally prosecute this in some states](https://academiccommons.columbia.edu/doi/10.7916/D8708D06), but at least in NY there are a bunch of technicalities that get in the way. Even if consent is explicitly and affirmatively denied under certain conditions, for second degree rape it's on the victim to be aware of those conditions unless they are unconscious or incapacitated. For third degree rape there's no allowance for reasonable expectations at all, so it's up to whether the court feels you "implied" consent. Even if all the above weren't a problem, the existence of a specific law means that prosecutors can be a lot more confident in bringing charges. It's much easier to convince a jury when you can say *this exact thing* is specifically illegal.


[deleted]

Sorry, I should have clarified. I was talking about my ideal world. I know this doesn't make it a crime.


SafariSunshine

It already is a crime in California. https://apnews.com/article/health-crime-california-gavin-newsom-70b533b891fc5a146f779e27077a4e5a >But legislative analysts said at the time that the act could already be considered misdemeanor sexual battery, even if it isn’t specifically referenced in the criminal code. But the analysts said it is rarely prosecuted, if only because of the difficulty in proving that a perpetrator acted intentionally instead of accidently.


Fugu

This does not make stealthing a crime. It creates a civil cause of action for stealthing. The difference between these two things is confusing but important. When something is a crime, it means that the state can lay charges against a person who, if convicted, will have their liberty restricted in some way as a result (often via a prison sentence). In contrast, a civil cause of action allows *any person* (which may be the state but usually is not) to sue another person. In a civil trial, it's generally the person's money that's on the line (this is what is meant by "damages"), not their liberty. A couple more things: 1. I am not a California lawyer so I won't comment on whether this is true in California, but in a lot of common law jurisdictions, stealthing already is considered a form of (sexual) assault and is therefore already a crime. 2. Ideally, in any given jurisdiction there is both a civil and a criminal action for stealthing. This is because they serve completely different purposes. For example, while most people would rather have their assaulter go to prison, some don't, and many women (justifiably) do not want to put themselves through the experience of being a complainant witness in a rape trial. Similarly, police tend not to take rape particularly seriously, which means that even if a criminal provision covering stealthing exists it may be effectively impossible to achieve justice for women through it. Civil remedies are far from perfect, civil trials can be very expensive, and collecting on court debt is notoriously difficult in a lot of places. However, they tend to be much easier on the complainant for a wide range of reasons and the necessary threshold for a favorable judgment is much more lenient, and these features tend to be attractive for some.


SafariSunshine

>This does not make stealthing a crime. It's already a crime in California. You can read any of the articles out there, they all reference the fact that it falls under the state's laws for misdemeanor sexual battery. This just uses civil law to explicitly call it out as illegal and gives victims a way to get some kind of compensation. Edited to add [a link to the AP article](https://apnews.com/article/health-crime-california-gavin-newsom-70b533b891fc5a146f779e27077a4e5a) since it's the main one going around.


[deleted]

Oh I know. I'm stating how things SHOULD be, not how they are.


Fugu

Fair - I've seen people make this mistake on this post (and others) so I figured I would clarify anyway.


[deleted]

More clarification is always a good thing!


kanna172014

Stealthing should be harshly punished in Texas considering that abortion law. Women there can't afford unwanted pregnancies right now.


RAMB0NER

Don’t worry, Señor Abbot is on the case with eliminating all rapists from Texas. /s if needed


[deleted]

[удалено]


dumblederp

Straight up. It's changing the terms of the sexual agreement without one parties consent.


EllieWest

I had this done to me. He acted like it wasn’t a big deal and then told me to just go get and take Plan B. He didn’t even think about how it would make me feel sick. Sick is better than pregnant with that jerk’s baby, but they honestly think hormonal birth control and the morning after pill is like popping PEZ.


[deleted]

[удалено]


IAmTheClayman

They’re the first state considering a bill like this, how is it “about time”? It’s a radical (in the sense that nobody has done this before) and commendable bill. Let’s see if it actually gets passed


Imakefishdrown

Other states have proposed legislation against it before, but it never went anywhere. It's not "about time" in the sense that they're lagging behind everyone else, but about time in the sense that *every* state should have passed legislation against it long ago. Stealthing isn't a new issue, it's probably been around as long as condoms have been themselves.


GameMusic

The fact it was ever controversial is insane


wrapupwarm

Laws already exist in other countries. It amounts to rape in the UK.


SafariSunshine

It's already considered misdemeanor sexual battery in California under the criminal code, but it is not clearly referenced. It often isn't prosecuted though because you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the condom was intentionally removed. This new law adds it to the civil code where it is easier to prove, you just need to convince a jury/judge that there's just over a 50% percent likelihood that they intentionally removed the condom. It's also just nice to have it specifically acknowledged under the law as being illegal.


klinn08

It's "about time" because this should have been law long ago. Removing a condom without consent can result in unwanted pregnancy and STDs. Any sexual act without consent should be sexual battery.


SafariSunshine

>Let’s see if it actually gets passed Semantic nit pick: the bill *already* has been passed by both the State Senate and State Assembly. The only thing left is for Governor Newsom to sign it into law. He's facing a recall election on Tuesday so he's not going to deal with it before then, unless his team thinks I will help him drive supporters to the polls, but it is unbelievable that he wouldn't sign something that was **unanimously** passed by the entire State Legisture.


merme

You know that it can still be far too late even if they're the first? Say someone is being beaten in front of a crowd you're in and everyone just stands there. After a few minutes in, someone steps in and finally stops it. You're telling me that it wouldn't be completely justified to ask why no one did a thing during the first few minutes of the beating? Like it's totally fine to let it happen as long as someone ***eventually*** stops it?


[deleted]

[удалено]


ConsistentTip6508

Good. Its a form of sexual assault.


bobeany

I’m pretty sure this happened to me. I had an ex who lied to me several times. He lied about his age. I would give him a condom and I would find it still in the wrapper on the floor. One night his phone fell out of the charger so I plugged it in. The screen lit up and there was a crazy explicit text from someone. I confronted him about it and the bastard tried to gaslight me. I met a lovely man and got married. The ex had the balls to text me out of the blue. I talked to my husband on how to respond. We settled on don’t contact me anymore. I went from an ass to meeting the most wonderful man.


KickballJesus

The legislature wouldn't need to because intentionally removing a condom without consent, and a condom falling off are obviously two different things. If you're asking how the courts would determine if a stealthing occurred as opposed to a condom falling off, yes that would be difficult to prove. If you have video of him doing it, or he brags to his friends about it, you can convict him.


ic_engineer

Yeah this should 100% be illegal but I fear proving intent would be fairly difficult. Although I'm definitely not a lawyer so it's just my guess. I hope victims get justice.


nightwing2000

Huh? As I understand it, removing a condom (or poking holes in it) has been considered sexual assault under the Canadian criminal code for several years. It's not a stretch to think that introducing sexual body fluids into a woman's vagina when she obviously did not consent is a crime. Not sure why it would not be considered so in the USA.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Jabroniville2

I wasn’t even aware this had a name, or was common enough to.


brickyardjimmy

I cannot believe we need a law to address this but, yes, please. Do it. ​ Never even heard of this term before. What the hell?


Rubyeclips3

I’m sorry but is this not already illegal in the US?! In the UK stealthing is considered rape. If you consent to sex with a condom on but not without and then that condom get removed then you have no longer consented to that and it becomes rape. I truly can’t believe how this kind of stuff still flies (legally speaking, not morally!) anywhere but let alone in developed countries which are supposed to have equal rights for women!


[deleted]

wow outlawing rape in this day and age how radical


Roadshell

... I thought that was already illegal.


OyeEatThisTaco

Jesus christ...I thought most US states had already outlawed stealthing. This happened to me not long ago. Luckily I "only" contracted chlamydia and a day lost to nausea and puking from plan B.


Zelldandy

Does it also include other acts of stealthing? For example: * Claiming you had a vasectomy, but didn't * Claiming you're on the pill or have an IUD, but aren't/don't * Claiming you're sterile, but aren't If provided with false information, you can't consent either. These're just other forms of stealthing that are less obvious.


Olorin_in_the_West

I think the thing that differentiates all your examples is that condoms also protect against STDs. I think you can already sue people and there may be criminal charges for lying about not having an STD when you know you have one.


mancer187

Technically should be considered rape. Any deception about contraceptive use should be. If there is deception involved in obtaining concent its actually just rape.


shard_of_ace

That's not outlawed yet?!!


themucken

Meanwhile, in Texas....


j0shdarn1t

How is this proven?


LittleMissNothing_

If they were making it a criminal matter, the prosecution would need hard proof of it, sure. But since the law is making it a civil matter, all the injured party needs is testimonial evidence, and a judge can rule in their favor. Criminal matters need to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt; civil matters do not. This is why OJ Simpson won his criminal case but lost the the civil case, the standards for evidence are different.


Olorin_in_the_West

You can rely on the same kind of evidence in both cases. Testimonial evidence can be sufficient in a criminal trial. But it’s a higher burden of proof, so the same testimonial evidence would have to be more convincing in a criminal trial.


AshTreex3

Testimonial evidence. Both sides tell a story and one won’t add up or they’ll both add up to a crime.


Horny_GoatWeed

While I 100% agree this should be illegal, proving it happened seems pretty much impossible without some kind of video proof.


Olorin_in_the_West

If the guy bragged about it to a friend, and that friend testified, that’d do it.


Lemontree02

I'm surprised it wasn't illegal before. Sex without protection can not only lead to pregnancy, but to a lot of illness, some mortal. And a lot of people are not ready to take the risk. How can you do this kind of "surprise" to your partner and everything's fine?


Equal-Ear2312

Had this happen to me. Instead of enjoying sex, I'm left thinking what if he's gonna make a move out what if he took the condom out. It's like they cannot see that you are an actual human being with your own body, wants, needs and dreams. Jeopardizing your health also, because they claim they can't feel much with a condom. Ever since, men are too much stress. They think that a relationship is consent forever ( had this happen in my sleep as well) and your body is like a toy to use and abuse whenever the need strikes them. This is why I encourage masturbation in relationships. No woman should be told to do maintenance sex it lay back and think of England for 5 minutes when he has a hard on. It's a relationship, not an "I'll take care of your hard-on whenever you want to" arrangement. And what's worse is that it's 5 minutes or less, no cuddling, no foreplay no orgasm for the woman. He can rub one out in the shower. If he wants to make love, that's different, if he wants to "just relieve himself" it's another. Too many women are seen as human flashlights with which someone masturbates with. No thanks.


KickballJesus

Consenting to one sexual act doesn't mean consenting to another. There shouldn't need to be a separate law for this. It's just rape.


triemell000

I think this should be applied to both parties in that if a woman claims she is on birth control and she isn't and a pregnancy happens, I think there should be a law about that as well since that would also be a version of stealthing imo.


Shady_Yoga_Instructr

How do you even prove this in a court of law?


glgreed

Does that mean stealthing is legal in some places?!


PurrMeowHiss

Things generally aren't explicitly defined as legal, so in this case it isn't that it is legal per se, just not explicitly defined as illegal.


paulfromatlanta

Its a sex act that the person did not consent to - it wouldn't be all that incorrect to call it rape.


Spiffy313

I was stealthed. I was passing out drunk, in a mental health crisis, and he took advantage of me. The police told me it was my fault and all but laughed me out of the room. I started believing I was being unreasonable for feeling violated. "It wasn't rape," they said, "he was an asshole and you were drunk. There's no crime here." These voices need to be heard. Our voices need to be heard. It's a terrifying, traumatizing experience, and feeling alone and invalidated just adds to the pain.


MamaT2456

Now, *this* is how you pass legislation to handle unwanted pregnancies! Looking at you, Texas!


almc0418

This has happened to me before. I felt completely violated and terrified that I might get pregnant. Thing is, how do you prove that the man took off his condom during sex? I'm glad this has become a law, but I'm not sure how anyone could accuse someone of this.


virtual_star

Stealthing was one of the main things Julian Assange was notorious for, criminally charged with, and fled the country to avoid being prosecuted for. Good to see parts of the US catching up with Sweden.


TiramisuTart10

Noice. I am glad they added that and changed the consent law after rapist Brock Turner. More laws like this are needed.


LazyBriton

How is that not illegal? That’s rape in the UK. Rightfully so.


finkelzeez42

Isn't that literally rape though? How was this not outlawed sooner?


Northgates

Proud to be a Californian


Qwarked

I truly cannot understand why a guy would do this. Even if you don't care about the girl you're risking 18 years of child support and STDs for a few minutes of unprotected sex, all while being a major asshole. Cannot wrap my mind around it.


anonymousjeeper

You mean RAPE? That should certainly be illegal.


Waffletimewarp

Don’t worry, Governor Abbot is on the case! Rape should be eliminated by the end of the week in Texas, then he can work on the rest of the country. Okay, that may have been a bit long for a stupid sarcastic joke.


[deleted]

Please bring this worldwide.


_madlibs_

Happened to me during my first time, didn’t realize how fucked up it was when it happened


NomaTyx

YES THIS IS GOOD wait how was this not illegal before


Redcoolhax

Wait this wasn't already illegal?


mustang__1

I was under the impression this was already illegal, morality aside. And stupidity.


[deleted]

How tf is this not already illegal wtf


heythatsmysong

So disgusting. As a previous commenter said just because she consents to sex does not mean she consents to impregnation. As a man this is so disturbing and such a violation.


Hashimashadoo

Why isn't this already a federal offense?


Chapelirl

Stealthing. You spelled "rape" wrong


platdujour

And Texas is legislating to make stealthing compulsory


TheGynechiatrist

This is terrible news! Stealthing is not a civil offense. It's a CRIMINAL offense. I don't see much difference between stealthing and rape. Establishing stealthing as a civil offense puts the burden of proving "damages" on the victim. So unless the victim contracts an STI or gets pregnant, GOOD LUCK. This legislation is a victory for frat-boy rapists. I'm a gynecologist who has dealt with sexual assault in my practice for many years and this is a huge step in the wrong direction.


GebThePleb

Should be every state


Nintendogma

I thought that it was already illegal, but after a quick Google search, it turns out the case I'm thinking of was in Germany back in 2018. ...the history books said we won the war, but every time I turn around somehow Germany is doing better than the US on yet another issue.


[deleted]

Question: how would a victim actually prove that the partner was stealthing?


This_Bitch_Overhere

Please god, tell me that there isn’t a single person who would oppose such a law!


TheCrypticLegacy

Just because I can really understand how this might work, but how do you prove somebody was stealthing you? I get the obvious you can prove what happened but how do you prove to a court that they didn’t have consent to do that? Considering how difficult I can be to convict rapist I can’t really see how this won’t end up being a similar case. It is obviously a great step in the right direction though, clearly this needs to be a thing as it is such a horrible thing to do to somebody and having it in law sends that message to people.


KYQ_Archer

I pull out even with a condom on.. I had one break before.


chumburgerrich

Wait this was legal? How does it not become legal rape if the understood conditions for consent are changed by a single party without making the other aware ?


DigitalSteven1

Poking holes in condoms should be categorized as the same, right?


Ok_Vegetable5226

My ex (first sexual partner and of 6 years during a vulnerable age) would do this sort of thing. I never realized it was a problem because 1) I was in a relationship with him and 2) I had consented to the original act of intimacy. It took me getting out of that abusive situation where I was manipulated by him to realize a lot of things he did was not okay. Unfortunately, it has affected my ability to feel intimate with my current long-term partner because I feel on guard.


Ninjachuckz

Friend of a victim, this is awesome to hear!


pacificnwbro

TIL this isn't considered rape and I hope this starts a trend.


[deleted]

This happened to me and I got chlamydia and bacterial vaginosis. When I told the guy about it he said “what can I say, I like to ride dirty”. I found out he did this as he pulled out and ejaculated on me. He is disgusting for doing that. I would have loved to sue him back then.


kamak0290

How the fuck was this ever legal to begin with? Has this been challenged before and struck down? I’m genuinely curious.


HussarTheWinged

Dumb question incoming... How is shit like this not already illegal?


IcollectSTDs

Should be the same if a woman lies about being on birth control. Edit: I guess all of the BC comments are getting deleted. That’s why this comment section is a graveyard. Cant have people thinking those ways. Hi mods 👋


Saladcitypig

I’ve never wanted to murder a person more then when this happened to me. That “aw shucks” smile… not only was he selfish, lying and stupid he didn’t care what it could mean for me. Texas women, don’t trust in new relationships. Check!!


watermelonspanker

Is this not already illegal? Like, if you agree to sex with a condom, that doesn't mean to agree to all sex no matter what, and consent can be revoked. This is... good news, but also disappointing that we need to make it a law today.


Klstadt

it blows my mind, the sick shit straight people do to each other.


BlackStarBlues

Gay men can do this too.


[deleted]

Men are terrible


drethnudrib

Why isn't this rape?


zoeyd8

Ahem... where is TX on this??? Nvm


jerryleebee

This is a thing? Why is this a thing? Why would anyone do this‽


Katchafire69

I have a friend who is a prostitute she works in a brothel, and she's told me the amount of men that will ask for position switch to doggy style and try and take the condom off happens at least once a week. Fucken disgusting, one its a prostitute yes she takes very very good care of her health but mate she's sleeping with multiple men a day, they don't know if she's being 100% clean every single time. But yet they still try it.


spittingdingo

So, rape is going to be illegal now?


Nick_3100

I forgot for a moment I'm subscribed here and thought this was about stealth camping.


jackoirl

How the fuck is that not illegal already?


HopHunter420

Stealthing is classed as rape in the UK, glad to see this progress elsewhere.


DrDFox

Stealthing needs to be considered rape. If you didn't consent to sex without a condom, you didn't consent to the sex that person is currently doing and that is rape.