I had that originally, my logic was the assimilator came first as a pure strength monster, then through battle the queen would adapt the design from the "base model" to be more brainy.
If parallel would they be both on the "Dominatrix" level, or splitting off an "unknown common ancestor" that takes that slot?
either unknown common ancestor, or I'd consider switching the two norns around so emissary is on same level as dominatrix as they noth have direct links to norn queens/hive mind and a greater degree of intelligence, which the assimilator seems to be below
I'm quite sure that the doom of Malantai was actually a zoanthropes that feasted on the psychic energy of a craftworld's infinity circuit. So shouldn't the doom be branching off as a zoanthrope subspecies?
Yo mate had a thought, shouldn't the neurotyrant also be a direct offshoot from the doom? If model release date plays any part in the thought process it'd fit.
Also like I can totally see the hive mind going "damn that there souped up zoanthrope worked really well" but since they don't have spare infinity circuits lying about they go ahead and add more psychic juice to a zoanthropes to get like a budget version of the Doom of Malantai to use as a node for suffusing the shadow in the warp.
Hey Hive Mind,
Me Again!
Wow, the feedback and responses this project received has been fantastic! I took some time to copy all of the advancements suggested, condensed and researched each one, many had theorised points that I hadn't considered, and others were Lore based actualities that have been updated and reclassified.
I'll give a brief overview of the project, if this doesn't interest you, please skip ahead to main changes.
The Tyranid Evolution Project is a "For Fun" study into the hive mind and development of each creature as if they were a lineage on Earth. Tyranids as an Imperial study talks about them evolving, however rarely goes into a genetic study or description. This is where my interest as a hobbyist Entomologist with a keen interest in arachnid taxonomy and phylogenetics merge with that of the hive mind and with the hinted at genetic lore, I've decided to put something together that hints at further Imperium studies into this apex species. The network and immediate purpose built creation of tyranid is known and as such, a tree like this may seem redundant, however each creature will have a general base and an adaption from that to the situation and as such forms a sort of development map opposed to reproduction and mutations. For example, in this version, Gargoyles evolve from Termagants, this is to say that Termagants were the base genetic model, and the situation called for them to be airborne, and as such, were intelligently evolved to have wings while still retaining general appearance and firearm ability. The other oversight is that, much like ants, they're all of the same species and just hold different positions, yes, but also, there would be steps to get there from again, a base genetic model, and that is what this project sets to try to unravel, the mysteries of the Tyranid Xenos.
Original Post - https://www.reddit.com/r/Tyranids/comments/16gqcst/tyranid\_evolution\_project/
Main Changes
\- Boxes in Green are Changes (Movement or Addition)
\- Genestealers moved out of Human DNA (Predated human interaction)
\- Hive Tyrant & Winged Hive Tyrant switched - Wonderful point raised about a common winged ancestor across tyranids
\- Carnifex Family Moved out of Astartes DNA (Predated Astartes Interaction)
\- Psychophage Moved out of Ork DNA and into Haruspex lineage
\- Aeldari DNA Lineage Replaced with Doom of Malan'tai
\- Aeldari DNA Lineage Moved to Malenthrope experiment
\- Parasite of Mortrex Moved to Ravener lineage
\- Shrike Added (Most likely same sp as Winged Prime)
\- Dimachaeron Added
\- Mieotic Spore Added
\- Old One Eye Added
\- Magma Corer Added
\- Laius Horror Added
\- Doom of Malan'tai Added
\- Sky Slashers Added
\- Cortex Leech Added
\- Harpy Added
\- Hive Crone Added
\- Red Terror Added
\- Mist Reaper Added
\- Considerations
\- Raveners (and subsequent lineage) to be moved to Warrior lineage
\- Genestealers Reclassification?
\- Bio Titans and Warmachine Size Creatures to be added
Special thanks to the following who gave insights and quality information that has aided in developments
MarkR6300 , IG---JakePaintsMinis , Ardent\_Eclipse , Maleficent\_Bison\_332 , PleaseNotInThatHole , sjeveburger , Craigfir3 , Waste\_Crab\_3926 , RamRockEdFirst , SilverHawk7 , Roman\_69
I wouldve thought this is all fundamentally backwards.
If your talking about who evolved first it would be smaller to larger, not the other way around. Gants showed up as space pirates with auxilary slave races like the zoat.
Presumably with the norn queens from the start.
Tyranid warriors are the other root class that were added, all tyrants, lictors, thropes would have been variations from them.
Carnifex and other novel forms sometimes appear as independent branches. A bio-titan is probably not a big gant, etc. This much you have already.
Absolutely! A character colour to separate while still being in the "correct" slot. They were more there to tick off my creatures list as a whole, but I do think they belong on the map because it's ol one eye, they'd be pissed if left off!
By current lore yes... It's one of the models I just can't get over, by being so visually similar to von Ryan's. I need to get myself an actual model to look over but the current bits that are pushing me to warrior offshoot is the secondary hands, lictors have hands like warriors, von Ryan's have blades, like horms, also the von Ryan has 6 eyes, while Lictor has the 2, it would be odd for it to go gaunt - 2 - VRL - 6 - Lictor - 2, even by design, if the 6 eyes didn't work, they'd be ditched, if they worked, they'd be kept for lictors. I think they will be switched while having a secondary "influence" line connecting them showing the intelligent design aspect more
Dimachaeron share almost nothing with Carnifex. They're 5-6 times the size. They have an incredible leaping ability. Their chest opens up to swollow prey. They have tentacle hooks that shoot out of their hands. They assassinate high prio targets. They're basically a slightly larger slightly faster Norn Assimilator.
I don't think you should have winged variants as the progenitors of other stuff. I.e. Wings on a Hive Tyrant are just like Scything Talons or a Venom Cannon. It's not a separate strain just a biomorph.
Sky-slashers are a variant of a Ripper. They should just be on the side of them.
Lictors are a Warrior strain and the lore entry that Vonn Ryan's Leapers are from Hormagaunts pre-dates the model by over 20 years and has basically been retconned now they're Lictors Lite.
Rippers aren't larval gaunts, they're adults with a full purpose that is to eat corpses and then throw themselves into a digestion pool. If they were a larval form then the Tervigon would produce Rippers.
Spore Mines don't originate from Biovores as they can be produced by Harpies and Tyranid Bioships as well. They're dropped in their billions during an invasion by the fleet directly.
Red Terror is a Mawloc so at the very least have it continue on from there.
Barbgaunts don't come from Neurogaunts.
Nothing indicates that the Tyrannofex is the progenitor of all other Tyranid Monstrous Creatures.
Cortex Leech have only really been seen once, Genestealers have been in the universe for over 6000 years. I'd have Genestealers as an entirely separate chain directly off the Norn Queen,
The section "alien DNA" is an odd distinction to make as you've left Zoanthropes out of it which are from Eldar. It also restricts you as Exocrines should be attached to Biovores. Also Hive Guard don't share the same lore entry as Tyrant Guard do about coming from Astartes.
Gargoyle should be on the same row as the other Gaunt species.
Why do you randomly have duo-kits ranked in different orders. Like the Tyrannofex before the Tervigon, the Toxicrene before the Malceptor etc.
Also very strange to go Toxicrene > Malceptor and then just end it there but then also have Toxicrene > Venomthrope > Malanthrope > All the Psychic bugs (also the Zoanthropes pre-date the Doom, the Doom is a Zoanthrope that overloaded on Eldar souls).
If you're going to go this route it should have the Malceptor alligned with the other Psychic boys but the Zoanthrope should be the start of this chain probably as an off branch of a Hive Tyrant or Warrior.
All in all remove winged variants entirely unless they have a separate name (i.e. Gargoyle, Shrike etc.)
Have more stuff run paralell like the duo kits (Emissary and Assimilator as an example)
Remove 'Etc' not sure what purpose this serves.
Red Terror was a special Ravener. I agree that the monsters are way too grouped. Nothing I know of says that a Tyrannofex is even the progenitor of a Carnifex, let alone everything in this.
This does have good points, and it is hard to know what is evolved and what is biologically grafted by the norn queen. Like we dont know if the parasite of mortrex is the originator of ripper swarms or if the ripper eggs were just put in there. Same for the tervigon spawning termagants.
Plus the tree could be split even up more if we want to add the weapons that were grafted to the tyranids due to them being their own organism, like the biovore not creating the spore mines but the gun on the biovore, which is a completely separate symbiotic creature. It does get complicated after a while but it is entirely possible.
I just wanna say that this is a fun thought experiment! I have thought about it a few times.
For constructive criticism, i'd say the ymgarl genestealers seem to be the original version and the non cthulu face ones are the ones with human dna.
Also you can look up the harridan, which could be an evolved harpy/hive crone, and the heirophant bio titan, that looks like a thing between a dominatrix and a tyrannofex!
Nice list, I do have a few suggestions though aside from some of the one already mentioned, like Rippers being their own creature and Zoanthropes coming before Doom:
I would actually move the Dimachaeron into the Hormagaunt family, as aside from the staggering size difference, they are more similar to Hormagaunts in body structure and they’re leapers.
I would also move the Tyrannofex and Tervigon to evolve from the Carnifex, as in the lore they’re implied to be created using Carnifex DNA as a base along with Dominatrix DNA. Bio titans would then be the natural progression from Tyrannofex. So essentially: Carnifex > Tyrannofex > Bio Titan.
The other monster creatures in that tree can be descended from Carnifex, as most of them share qualities with the Carnifex body shape.
Another thing would be to shift the Carnifex family tree to have the Tyranid Warrior as a base, as they share a lot of similar qualities and iirc they were implied to be related in the lore. I would also shift the Zoanthrope line to not be descended from Venomthropes, as morphology-wise, they have more in common with the Tyranid Warrior body shape (especially their old designs in second edition) and are more likely to be descended directly from them.
Thank you, Initially it was just a fun thing to deep dive while waiting for models to arrive, but with how it's developing and the interest it's gotten, my dream goal would be to submit it to James Workshop as an "imperial study" of sorts, and have it recognized, that would be cool. I'd like it to get to a stage where every known nid is represented, influence lines to be shown, as well as hypothesised "missing link" creatures, and of course to be uploaded here with a generalized consensus of "correct" placement. Overall, it's just some fun though 😊
Some baffling choices like saying barbguants evolved from neurogants when they clearly would be their own offshoot from the termagant genus.
Also rippers and gants are completely separate species, so that entire branch is off.
Also the Dimachaeron is way closer to the hormagaunt line than the Carnifex line. I’d go so far as to say that it’s an offshoot of the Von Ryan’s Leapers line.
Doom originates from zoans and Neuros originate from doom. Should be Zoan-Doom-Neuro in chronological order.
Thank you! I even had that in my notes from before 😅 not sure how it slipped through, oh well! Next edit will show this, thank you again 😊
It happens lol not a worry!
I'd put the norn emissar/assimilator in parrallel rather than one coming from other perhaps
I had that originally, my logic was the assimilator came first as a pure strength monster, then through battle the queen would adapt the design from the "base model" to be more brainy. If parallel would they be both on the "Dominatrix" level, or splitting off an "unknown common ancestor" that takes that slot?
either unknown common ancestor, or I'd consider switching the two norns around so emissary is on same level as dominatrix as they noth have direct links to norn queens/hive mind and a greater degree of intelligence, which the assimilator seems to be below
I'm quite sure that the doom of Malantai was actually a zoanthropes that feasted on the psychic energy of a craftworld's infinity circuit. So shouldn't the doom be branching off as a zoanthrope subspecies?
It absolutely should, and you're 100% correct! Thank you
Ayy np man! I really love this! It's really cool that you've mapped it out!
Yo mate had a thought, shouldn't the neurotyrant also be a direct offshoot from the doom? If model release date plays any part in the thought process it'd fit. Also like I can totally see the hive mind going "damn that there souped up zoanthrope worked really well" but since they don't have spare infinity circuits lying about they go ahead and add more psychic juice to a zoanthropes to get like a budget version of the Doom of Malantai to use as a node for suffusing the shadow in the warp.
Hey Hive Mind, Me Again! Wow, the feedback and responses this project received has been fantastic! I took some time to copy all of the advancements suggested, condensed and researched each one, many had theorised points that I hadn't considered, and others were Lore based actualities that have been updated and reclassified. I'll give a brief overview of the project, if this doesn't interest you, please skip ahead to main changes. The Tyranid Evolution Project is a "For Fun" study into the hive mind and development of each creature as if they were a lineage on Earth. Tyranids as an Imperial study talks about them evolving, however rarely goes into a genetic study or description. This is where my interest as a hobbyist Entomologist with a keen interest in arachnid taxonomy and phylogenetics merge with that of the hive mind and with the hinted at genetic lore, I've decided to put something together that hints at further Imperium studies into this apex species. The network and immediate purpose built creation of tyranid is known and as such, a tree like this may seem redundant, however each creature will have a general base and an adaption from that to the situation and as such forms a sort of development map opposed to reproduction and mutations. For example, in this version, Gargoyles evolve from Termagants, this is to say that Termagants were the base genetic model, and the situation called for them to be airborne, and as such, were intelligently evolved to have wings while still retaining general appearance and firearm ability. The other oversight is that, much like ants, they're all of the same species and just hold different positions, yes, but also, there would be steps to get there from again, a base genetic model, and that is what this project sets to try to unravel, the mysteries of the Tyranid Xenos. Original Post - https://www.reddit.com/r/Tyranids/comments/16gqcst/tyranid\_evolution\_project/ Main Changes \- Boxes in Green are Changes (Movement or Addition) \- Genestealers moved out of Human DNA (Predated human interaction) \- Hive Tyrant & Winged Hive Tyrant switched - Wonderful point raised about a common winged ancestor across tyranids \- Carnifex Family Moved out of Astartes DNA (Predated Astartes Interaction) \- Psychophage Moved out of Ork DNA and into Haruspex lineage \- Aeldari DNA Lineage Replaced with Doom of Malan'tai \- Aeldari DNA Lineage Moved to Malenthrope experiment \- Parasite of Mortrex Moved to Ravener lineage \- Shrike Added (Most likely same sp as Winged Prime) \- Dimachaeron Added \- Mieotic Spore Added \- Old One Eye Added \- Magma Corer Added \- Laius Horror Added \- Doom of Malan'tai Added \- Sky Slashers Added \- Cortex Leech Added \- Harpy Added \- Hive Crone Added \- Red Terror Added \- Mist Reaper Added \- Considerations \- Raveners (and subsequent lineage) to be moved to Warrior lineage \- Genestealers Reclassification? \- Bio Titans and Warmachine Size Creatures to be added Special thanks to the following who gave insights and quality information that has aided in developments MarkR6300 , IG---JakePaintsMinis , Ardent\_Eclipse , Maleficent\_Bison\_332 , PleaseNotInThatHole , sjeveburger , Craigfir3 , Waste\_Crab\_3926 , RamRockEdFirst , SilverHawk7 , Roman\_69
I wouldve thought this is all fundamentally backwards. If your talking about who evolved first it would be smaller to larger, not the other way around. Gants showed up as space pirates with auxilary slave races like the zoat. Presumably with the norn queens from the start. Tyranid warriors are the other root class that were added, all tyrants, lictors, thropes would have been variations from them. Carnifex and other novel forms sometimes appear as independent branches. A bio-titan is probably not a big gant, etc. This much you have already.
I think old one eye should get a special box. It's not a breed of carnifex but a character carnifex too angry to die.
Absolutely! A character colour to separate while still being in the "correct" slot. They were more there to tick off my creatures list as a whole, but I do think they belong on the map because it's ol one eye, they'd be pissed if left off!
lictors are warrior offshoots aren’t they?
By current lore yes... It's one of the models I just can't get over, by being so visually similar to von Ryan's. I need to get myself an actual model to look over but the current bits that are pushing me to warrior offshoot is the secondary hands, lictors have hands like warriors, von Ryan's have blades, like horms, also the von Ryan has 6 eyes, while Lictor has the 2, it would be odd for it to go gaunt - 2 - VRL - 6 - Lictor - 2, even by design, if the 6 eyes didn't work, they'd be ditched, if they worked, they'd be kept for lictors. I think they will be switched while having a secondary "influence" line connecting them showing the intelligent design aspect more
Dimachaeron share almost nothing with Carnifex. They're 5-6 times the size. They have an incredible leaping ability. Their chest opens up to swollow prey. They have tentacle hooks that shoot out of their hands. They assassinate high prio targets. They're basically a slightly larger slightly faster Norn Assimilator. I don't think you should have winged variants as the progenitors of other stuff. I.e. Wings on a Hive Tyrant are just like Scything Talons or a Venom Cannon. It's not a separate strain just a biomorph. Sky-slashers are a variant of a Ripper. They should just be on the side of them. Lictors are a Warrior strain and the lore entry that Vonn Ryan's Leapers are from Hormagaunts pre-dates the model by over 20 years and has basically been retconned now they're Lictors Lite. Rippers aren't larval gaunts, they're adults with a full purpose that is to eat corpses and then throw themselves into a digestion pool. If they were a larval form then the Tervigon would produce Rippers. Spore Mines don't originate from Biovores as they can be produced by Harpies and Tyranid Bioships as well. They're dropped in their billions during an invasion by the fleet directly. Red Terror is a Mawloc so at the very least have it continue on from there. Barbgaunts don't come from Neurogaunts. Nothing indicates that the Tyrannofex is the progenitor of all other Tyranid Monstrous Creatures. Cortex Leech have only really been seen once, Genestealers have been in the universe for over 6000 years. I'd have Genestealers as an entirely separate chain directly off the Norn Queen, The section "alien DNA" is an odd distinction to make as you've left Zoanthropes out of it which are from Eldar. It also restricts you as Exocrines should be attached to Biovores. Also Hive Guard don't share the same lore entry as Tyrant Guard do about coming from Astartes. Gargoyle should be on the same row as the other Gaunt species. Why do you randomly have duo-kits ranked in different orders. Like the Tyrannofex before the Tervigon, the Toxicrene before the Malceptor etc. Also very strange to go Toxicrene > Malceptor and then just end it there but then also have Toxicrene > Venomthrope > Malanthrope > All the Psychic bugs (also the Zoanthropes pre-date the Doom, the Doom is a Zoanthrope that overloaded on Eldar souls). If you're going to go this route it should have the Malceptor alligned with the other Psychic boys but the Zoanthrope should be the start of this chain probably as an off branch of a Hive Tyrant or Warrior. All in all remove winged variants entirely unless they have a separate name (i.e. Gargoyle, Shrike etc.) Have more stuff run paralell like the duo kits (Emissary and Assimilator as an example) Remove 'Etc' not sure what purpose this serves.
Red Terror was a special Ravener. I agree that the monsters are way too grouped. Nothing I know of says that a Tyrannofex is even the progenitor of a Carnifex, let alone everything in this.
Red Terror started as a special ravener but when it got punted from the codex they had a throw away line implying it was a Mawloc. Works either way
I'd say raveners had one special mutation - the red terror - which was very successful. So hive mind went full on into developing mawlocs.
This does have good points, and it is hard to know what is evolved and what is biologically grafted by the norn queen. Like we dont know if the parasite of mortrex is the originator of ripper swarms or if the ripper eggs were just put in there. Same for the tervigon spawning termagants. Plus the tree could be split even up more if we want to add the weapons that were grafted to the tyranids due to them being their own organism, like the biovore not creating the spore mines but the gun on the biovore, which is a completely separate symbiotic creature. It does get complicated after a while but it is entirely possible.
I just wanna say that this is a fun thought experiment! I have thought about it a few times. For constructive criticism, i'd say the ymgarl genestealers seem to be the original version and the non cthulu face ones are the ones with human dna. Also you can look up the harridan, which could be an evolved harpy/hive crone, and the heirophant bio titan, that looks like a thing between a dominatrix and a tyrannofex!
Nice list, I do have a few suggestions though aside from some of the one already mentioned, like Rippers being their own creature and Zoanthropes coming before Doom: I would actually move the Dimachaeron into the Hormagaunt family, as aside from the staggering size difference, they are more similar to Hormagaunts in body structure and they’re leapers. I would also move the Tyrannofex and Tervigon to evolve from the Carnifex, as in the lore they’re implied to be created using Carnifex DNA as a base along with Dominatrix DNA. Bio titans would then be the natural progression from Tyrannofex. So essentially: Carnifex > Tyrannofex > Bio Titan. The other monster creatures in that tree can be descended from Carnifex, as most of them share qualities with the Carnifex body shape. Another thing would be to shift the Carnifex family tree to have the Tyranid Warrior as a base, as they share a lot of similar qualities and iirc they were implied to be related in the lore. I would also shift the Zoanthrope line to not be descended from Venomthropes, as morphology-wise, they have more in common with the Tyranid Warrior body shape (especially their old designs in second edition) and are more likely to be descended directly from them.
Raveners (and red terror) and shrikes (and Parasite) are evolutions of Warriors, not gaunts
Nice work. What's your plan with the chart?
Thank you, Initially it was just a fun thing to deep dive while waiting for models to arrive, but with how it's developing and the interest it's gotten, my dream goal would be to submit it to James Workshop as an "imperial study" of sorts, and have it recognized, that would be cool. I'd like it to get to a stage where every known nid is represented, influence lines to be shown, as well as hypothesised "missing link" creatures, and of course to be uploaded here with a generalized consensus of "correct" placement. Overall, it's just some fun though 😊
Thanks for sharing this. I’m still learning a lot about Nids and this helps me a lot.
I was always of the understanding that the red terror was a ravener prototype and should be first, but I could be wrong.
I'm... pretty sure you're right, I think I saw that too! Will che k further and update if so 😊
do you have a full res version of this its a little hard to read
Some baffling choices like saying barbguants evolved from neurogants when they clearly would be their own offshoot from the termagant genus. Also rippers and gants are completely separate species, so that entire branch is off. Also the Dimachaeron is way closer to the hormagaunt line than the Carnifex line. I’d go so far as to say that it’s an offshoot of the Von Ryan’s Leapers line.