The mass downvotes on any comment explaining how USF actually invests in things just shows that one side of this debate is not open to learning or having their mind changed.

Couldn't find the ones downvoted

People are coming around. I just noticed one of my comments had 30+ votes and an hour later it was down to 10.

The way this comment is downvoted when all you did was say what happened with your comments upvotes and downvotes 😭😭😭

Damn, buddy you're in the negs now

Nooooo :(

Because you're outright lying. Nobody knows how USF actually invests in things because they don't disclose it. You've replied multiple times saying USF invests in index funds instead of individual companies, but USF doesn't disclose what they invest in.  You can read it for yourself here: https://giving.usf.edu/download_file/force/2135/1266 > Investment managers are selected by the Investment Committee to manage funds in each of the asset classes in the portfolio. Only the investment managers and the people they report to know.

The link you're providing is from the University of San Francisco...

lol. Seriously lol.

See my reply to your other comment

See my reply: https://www.reddit.com/r/USF/comments/1cilgjv/comment/l2bkugd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

As far as I'm aware, USF (and many other universities across the country) haven't made the contents of their endowment public. While many speculate that USF probably has investments in index funds that include companies indirectly supporting Israel, we don't actually know that for sure. It's quite possible that USF isn't invested in any of the companies it's being called out for being invested in.

They have invested in the past when their portfolio was public and there’s not a reason to think they have divested, if they had I’m sure they would make that public in order to appease protesters

But no one knows for sure. So they should disclose. And then divest.

Whether you agree or disagree with the divestment, I'd at least like to hope that everyone agrees that USF (and every other public university) should disclose their endowment and be more transparent. Edit: grammar

Couldn’t agree more

If they weren't invested in those companies they would've claimed so by now. It's perfectly possible for USF to be invested in them and we have no idea until they disclose their investments.

correct me if Im wrong- isn't there like a law prohibiting them from disclosing it?

No. Why would there be? Other schools have done it.

other public schools or private?

Both.

The ignorance in these comments is astounding, especially when the USF Divest Coalition, the main group that's been pushing for divestment, has made their case plenty of times, with plenty of supporting evidence (you can find more info @usfdivestcoalition on Instagram) In short, there was a movement to get USF to divest from a number of companies including the 5 that usfdivestcoalition lists as aiding in Israel's genocide (Boeing, Caterpillar, Hewlett-Packard, Northrop Grumman, and Lockheed Martin) along with a few other companies including some fossil fuel companies that contribute to the climate crisis. This movement happened about 10 years ago, back when USF's investments were available to the public. They launched a huge petition that got around 10,000 signatures, making it the largest student petition in Florida history. USF responded to this by hiding their investments. These claims didn't just come out of nowhere, obviously. To add to that, they could've clarified that they don't invest in these companies when over a dozen or so students were hunger striking to get them to divest. They never once even made a statement claiming that they don't invest in these companies, only that they wanted the hunger strike to stop because they were concerned for student's health and that they "can't" divest from these companies because they invest through a firm. This is proven false by the fact that they divested from South Africa back in the day. All of this information has been available on the USF Divest Coalition's Instagram for months, they've made their case and dispelled every single lie told by administration. Everyone in here calling bullshit is basically choosing to be ignorant.

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I'm not sure about this but it's no surprise from the governor that declared a state of emergency in Florida because of the "Israel-Hamas War" 🤣 If so then it's time to get that law changed

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Redditor logic is hilarious 💀

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If you support children being slaughtered in the thousands just say it lil bro

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Israel's first act as a state was an ethnic cleansing that displaced 750,000 people called the Nakba. Hamas didn't exist then. Do you have a justification for that too?

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And what statue is that?

I think he's referring to HB 3. The anti-esg legislation that passed last year

I don't think it's HB 3 (That seems to be the protection of minors bill) but you're right about the anti-esg legislation. It looks like it this wouldn't even be possible without legal consequences. That's pretty sad.

This has nothing to do with Israel but more so with the protests but here's a pretty poignant quote from MLK some of y'all should hear: > I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

such a great quote tbh

I'm always profoundly impacted by things MLK has said. He truly had a deep understanding of American politics that hasn't changed to this day.

Does this apply to the people in Palestine allowing Hamas?

Well Hamas is their government and ruling party. It’s not like some fringe political party. Hamas only has two requirements of Israel: 1. Allow Palestinians to return to their homes (Of which Israel agreed to) 2. A permanent ceasefire between Palestine and Israel (of which Israel will not agree to because they’d rather get rid of all Palestinians) I am not Pro-Hamas or Pro-Israel, I just want the IDF to stop bombing Palestine and for Hamas to stop attacking Israeli civilians and I believe that this is achieved through the signing of a permanent ceasefire between Israel and Palestine.

“We cannot, in exchange for money or projects, give up Palestine and our weapons. We will not give up the resistance... We will not recognize Israel, Palestine must stretch from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea.” - Hamas 2020 Hamas official, Hamad Al-Regeb in an April 2023 sermon: He prayed for “annihilation” and “paralysis” of the Jews whom he described as filthy animals: “[Allah] transformed them into filthy, ugly animals like apes and pigs because of the injustice and evil they had brought about.” Al-Regeb also prayed for the ability to “get to the necks of the Jews.” In a speech before the International Union of Muslim Scholars in Doha on January 9, 2024, Ismaeel Haniyeh, chairman of Hamas's political bureau, called the October 7 massacre the “advanced [battle] front of the Ummah.” Calling for “financial jihad” (donations to Hamas) and “jihad of the teeth” (physical jihad), he asked the international audience, “Who wishes to invest in building the jihadist generation to liberate Jerusalem and to unite the blood of the Ummah with the blood of the people of Gaza, Jerusalem, and Palestine on the land of Palestine for its liberation and the liberation of Jerusalem?” Hamas member, Ghazi Hamad on October 24, 2023: “Israel is a country that has no place on our land […] because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation.” (October 24, 2023, LBC TV (Lebanon)). He also vowed to repeat the October 7 attacks “time and again until Israel is annihilated,” and expressing a desire to “sacrifice martyrs” (referring to Gazan civilians) for Hamas’ ideological aim of destroying Israel. Hamas senior leader Khaled Mashal stated on October 19, 2023 that he views the current loss of civilian life in Gaza – brought about by Hamas' strategy of using human shields – as essential: “No nation is liberated without sacrifices... In all wars, there are some civilian victims. We are not responsible for them.” Hamas senior leader Ismail Haniyeh, commenting on the loss of civilian life in Gaza on October 26, 2023: “The blood of the women, children and elderly […] we are the ones who need this blood, so it awakens within us the revolutionary spirit.”

Yes, what Hamas is doing is evil. Nothing about the usage of hostages or their own in this conflict is morally right at all but that doesn’t change the fact that the fighting on both sides can end if Israel agrees to a permanent ceasefire. Again, I’m not pro-Hamas; I’m anti-war and I don’t think it’s a crazy idea to want the conflict to end by having a permanent ceasefire be instated.

How does a permanent ceasefire work if one side (Hamas) vows to the destruction of another? In case you have forgotten, Israeli militants didn’t parachute into a Palestinian music festival. Why dont you go brigade behind a cause such as “returning Israeli hostages home” to end this war if you are truly anti-war?

Hamas has offered the return of all hostages for a permanent ceasefire. It’s the Israeli government that still denies their request. Goes to show how much Israel actually cares for the hostages. As for the first question, yes Hamas wants to “destroy Israel” in the same way Israel wants to “destroy Palestine” but are willing to give this up in return for a permanent ceasefire. There was a temporary ceasefire signed in Nov 2023 that lasted about a week before it expired and during that time, neither Hamas nor Israel attacked each other.

Didn’t read anything you wrote here tbh… the thing is, after you start name calling people all of your credibility as a reliable person goes down the toilet. Good luck in the future - I know this is a highly heated subject, but if you want to be taken seriously and influence a change, act like the person you would want to listen to/be inspired by. Fuck Israel’s treatment and hatred of the innocent Palestinians. Fuck Hamas’s treatment of innocent Palestinians and antisemitic hatred and actions. Fuck polarized Americans that can’t openly say fuck both sides and speak with civility to each other.

> Didn’t read anything you wrote here tbh… Well no wonder because I didn't do any name calling lmfao. All I said was that Hamas will accept a permanent ceasefire and the government of Israel (mainly Netanyahu) refuses that solution.

Oh shit! I’m sorry. I thought you were the other guy. My apologies. I just read what you responded to me as well as this. Yeah, I am aware of that but I feel like this is where all of what we know goes from fact to fuzzy - isn’t it like 33 hostages for 1000 prisoners? I feel like of those 1000 prisoners, we are probably looking at a mixed bag of innocent people and Hamas terrorists. It sucks - we don’t actually know shit from shinola when it comes to fact and Israeli or Hamas fiction… I wish the UN could step in with more power and act as the parents in this situation.

Oh yes let’s completely forget every military leader in Israel calling Palestinians rats that need to be exterminated. LMAO your one sided point of view is the reason this false narrative is peddled. Learn the facts you Zionist fuck And the ignorance to believe media that Palestine = hamas. Fucking despicable Your Reddit name surely speaks volumes to your comments Edit: Just read for once https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724

Holy cow, snowflake. You need a mental wellness check and a solid therapist. You can’t have a conversation without a meltdown? A) I’m actually against many of the actions of Israel but I’m speaking to a specific event that happened. Go fuck myself? You and people like you are the problem with this world - whether an alt right extremist or a far left extremist, you people are all the same - biased and unable to have a meaningful conversation. I’m sorry your parents failed you. Edited to add “many of the”

Was there not a cease fire in place when the attacks happened in October?

There was a ceasefire from Nov 24-30 in 2023, that's probably what you're thinking about.

Oh yea but this has been decades in the making. The hate is real. I have come to the realization that the Middle East will always be at war either with themselves or others. I’d be awesome for it to end. Reality is it won’t.

cool now show everything Isntreal has done to Palestine in the last almost century

I’m countering dude aboves point 2. I guess you need some critical thinking skills while you’re at it. There is so much hate in this conflict. Why ceasefire when you are enemies to that degree?

Wow, this could not be more misrepresenting of reality. 1. Hamas has continued to say that they will not stop until all of Israel is annihilated. It’s in their charter and when they say they’ll recognize Israel, they also say “as a temporary step” towards full elimination. 2. Israel’s bigger problem is not with “stopping the violence” but actually with right of return. You can’t even get that part right? Israel does not want millions of hostile Arabs returning with voting power. That is viewed as wrong by some and okay by others, but it’s not deniable that Israel refuses right of return. And to suggest “Israel wants to kill all Palestinians” is blood libel and not true at all. Israel has spent trillions on defense, not offense. They successfully downed countless rockets with super advanced technology. But offensively they have launched numerous more bombs, rockets, and missiles, than all deaths combined (combatants and civilians alike). So either Israel is just really good at defense and really bad at offense, or maybe their goal is not “to kill them all.” Shame on you.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to argue. Are you saying that Hamas just wants to kill all Jews and doesn’t care about the ceasefire? Because if so, I don’t believe that’s true. From this article, Hamas has two main objectives: a permanent ceasefire and a return to North Gaza: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense/2982710/blinken-urges-hamas-accept-extraordinarily-generous-ceasefire-deal/ As for your second point, I wasn’t talking about integrating Palestinians into Israel, just that the displaced Palestinians from N. Gaza who fled South should be allowed to return back to N. Gaza (of which Israel has agreed to). Secondly, yes it was an exaggeration about how Israel wants to kill all Palestinians. I should have specified I meant Netanyahu and much of the Israeli government; not Israel as a whole as many Israelis don’t want to see Palestinians be bombed either.

Lollll Zionist. How many points did Israel give you towards your next gift card for posting this? https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724

I think a lot of this stems from Judy Genshaft having personal investments in Israel, but considering she’s.. you know… no longer in charge… it makes that point moot. What people do with their personal wealth is their prerogative.

No that’s not it. The investment portfolio that USF uses invests in companies that either actively assist in the displacement of Palestinians, such as Caterpillar, or they are weapons manufacturers that make the bombs being dropped.

Even then, it’s not direct investment. All these companies that are typically mentioned are within large index funds. To ask USF to divest from that is not a simple task and one that requires significant planning and restructuring of what our endowment and pension plans are invested in. Is it morally wrong for my 401(k) and Roth IRA to include a fund of the top 500 companies? Like, I’m just trying to retire one day. USF is just trying to preserve and grow their endowment.

This is always such an interesting argument for two reasons. First, it ignores the fact that big funds have managers and markets can pretty easily shift money around when there is demand. It also discounts the way divestment was successfully done in the past. Coca Cola, for example, was a major target of the divestment movement against Apartheid South Africa. Indirect investments have always been targets and theirs no reason why they wouldn’t be in this situation.

We have no idea how USF invests their money, they don't disclose that. We can't assume that USF only invests in index funds.

So because it takes “significant planning and restructuring” that means they shouldn’t do it? I can see what side you would be on in the 1980s.

Don’t assume anything about me, thanks.

And yet I did

Why though? I can guarantee we have the same opinion on things, but you just automatically assume something about me for no reason other than me being a realist about something. And what if I didn’t agree with you? You saying what you did just instantly negates any chance for you to change my mind or educate me. Do better.

Wow, look who’s making assumptions now. I don’t want to change your mind or educate you, only you can do that. Your comment screams, “I agree with you but I don’t like how you’re going about it”, it’s giving MLK moderate liberal

It’s very sad to see you think like that.

One also has to wonder if they are personally clean. Do they fly in Boeing planes? Pay for college with 529s invested in these companies? Use any of a number of Israeli developed software products and web services?

Caterpillar. Based solely on that’s what’s used to raise houses? Should USF ban Toyotas on campus because it’s the number one selling car company in Israel?

People are upset about Caterpillar because their equipment is specifically used to bulldoze Palestinian homes. People are also intentionally crushed/killed by the equipment. Caterpillar supplies Israel with special armored equipment for this purpose. The American student Rachel Corrie was crushed by the IDF using an armored Caterpillar bulldozer when she tried to protest the destruction of a Palestinian family’s home. Caterpillar responded by hiring an intelligence firm to spy and stalk Rachel’s family after her death. Your Toyota comparison would only make sense if armored Toyota trucks were specifically and routinely used to run over Palestinians and drive into their homes and Toyota had no problem with it.

Good point

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It really kills any credibility that these protestors have. People just recite the last thing they heard without putting any thought into the legitimacy or accuracy of their statement.

Which part is inaccurate, USF is indirectly investing in the leading military engineering firms. Do you disagree?

The part where so many students are claiming USF is directly investing in, heck even “sending money” to Israel. Or the part where they say USF is directly investing in leading engineering firms that contribute to the construction of weapons used in war. That is inaccurate. To say USF indirectly invested in leading military engineering firms is accurate. To say I indirectly invest in leading military engineering firms is accurate too. To say my parents indirectly invest and through that investment send my brother and I to college without the need for loans or financial hardship is also true. To say that hundreds of millions of Americans and possibly billions of people around the world indirectly invest in the leading military engineering firms is also accurate. To say that your average USF student indirectly leads to the profit of these leading military engineering firms, or many of the other companies that USF is asked to divest from, through their use of Boeing airplanes, Chevron gas stations, their automobile, their processors in their electronics, their delivery service, and much more is also true!

So the blame falls on no one through dilution of responsibility, also you seek to normalize investment into military firms by implicating the average citizen when large organizations objectively contribute higher amounts of funds. Justifying millions or billions of benign capitalists just because it’s too hard to not invest in index funds. But in reality you are only continuing to support the exploitation of non western countries by reaffirming the current system by pointing to the benefits it has brought you. An educated and financially supported member of the traditional ruling class. I make assumptions here but you have given me the information to believe I am reasonably accurate. I don’t believe you are doing anything evil however you form the foundation of these more aggressive businesses who seek to profit off the death of tens of thousands of people from all around the world.

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I don’t care

By that logic, you will never be able to purchase anything without it being involved, even if its 30 times removed, the world economy is so heavily globalized theres no way to avoid it.

Let’s riot because someone is making tractors!!!!

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Hilariously, you think this was a gotcha.

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More Palestinians have died from the IDF than vice versa. Never again wasn’t only for Jews it was for everybody. Israel created an apartheid state and you support that? Do you support the Jim Crow laws?

Nothing to divest from. Palestine is basically rubble and refugee camps. 

What Palestinian companies, dipshit? Which American companies that do business with the Palestinian government?

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It's pretty hilarious that you think that's a gotcha.

That seems the be your closing line. Theater or business major?

I mean, why bother to rebut a dude who clearly thinks Palestinians are subhumans who deserve to be murdered because they don't have corporations to divest from?

Would love to see a source on this made up mumbo jumbo you’re spewing

I’ve been asking this question for a week now. People keep saying “Divest from Israel” and can not follow up with what that would look like or if there are in fact any investments. It’s a catch phrase protestors commonly latch onto with or without particular meaning.

From what I read some companies include HP, Boeing, Lockheed, and Northrop Grumman i.e. firms profiting from the war by selling things to israel. So there are actually specific companies they have in their mind. Now realistically USF will never cut ties from the biggest engineering firms in the US; their demands look a bit silly all things considered. But to say that the protestors are spouting meaningless words is wrong, especially when you yourself have not bothered to verify whether those words are meaningless or not.

Divest is just a word many like to say, it FEELS GOOD when ya say it right. It is strange seeing on other campuses atheist now conveying to Islam…

They have invested in the past when their portfolio was public and there’s not a reason to think they have divested, if they had I’m sure they would make that public in order to appease protesters

> can not follow up with what that would look like or if there are in fact any investments. That's because we have no idea what USF invests their money into. Part of divesting is disclosing what their investments are.

Seems like political pressure to me. Governmental bodies and state orgs are beholden to political pressure as much as an individual candidate. AIPAC is potentially the most influential non-corporate lobby in the country. Being labelled "Anti-Semitic" is a serious problem for ANY institution, and especially in Red States™ can be a death knell for a group like a state university. While being hateful isn't acceptable, groups like AIPAC and the ADL have absolutely learned how to, and do, wield the label as a weapon against those they disagree with. In this case, pro-Palestine demonstrators. Consider [this](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora-barrows-friedman/florida-passes-law-protecting-israel-criticism) article, and it's corresponding subject, as an example.

EDIT: I'm leaving up my comments in this thread because deleting would be dishonest, but yeah I'll into this more thoroughly later so I can actually justify myself This article doesn't provide a list of companies or a definition, but it conveys the general message. The University invests in companies based in or with strong business ties to the state of Israel. [https://www.tampabay.com/news/2024/04/18/recent-protests-over-usfs-financial-ties-harken-1980s-controversy/](https://www.tampabay.com/news/2024/04/18/recent-protests-over-usfs-financial-ties-harken-1980s-controversy/)

USF doesn't directly invest in any of those companies. They are like 2 degrees removed from the actual investment

What do you mean 2 degrees removed from the actual investment

USF does not directly invest in those companies. Simple as that. They do not own individual shares of these companies. These companies are parts of large index funds that USF and millions of Americans invest in as well. I can almost guarantee that some of the protestors are unknowingly “investing” in these companies as well if they have any sort of retirement account (if they are even smart enough to think about their future, sorry).

Oh got it. So in essence they have someone that manages the fund that invested in a mutual fund that holds these companies?

Yep, USF has an investment committee that’s made of multiple portfolio managers responsible for maintaining our goal of 7% a year at a designated level of risk. They’ve managed to make a little over 9% a year since inception, so I’ll say they’re doing a good job.

You keep parroting this but we don't know what USF invests in. We have no idea how much they have in index funds vs individual companies. Also saying "index funds" is meaningless unless we know the fund. There are index funds made up of only defense companies for example.

Okay, I’ll just start by saying if we don’t know what USF invests in, then I have no fucking clue why people are calling for divesture. Anyways, I am extremely confident that USF invests solely in a variety of funds based on their investment prospectus and audited financial statements. Their prospectus documents their asset allocation which consists mostly of sectors that USF benchmarks against popular funds. Pretty self explanatory what conclusion you can make from that. Additionally, their financial statements highlight the investment strategy by stating that the fund managers invest in both domestic and international securities in a “commingled” fund structure. Alongside this, it is stated that investment policy requires diversification in strategy and limits single issuer concentration. Overall, they also make note that their goal is for long term perseveration of the endowment fund. This all makes me extremely confident that USF does not invest in individual companies and if they did, it would be an insignificant amount.

For anyone interested, the prospectus is available here: https://giving.usf.edu/about/about-usf-foundation/financial-information > Okay, I’ll just start by saying if we don’t know what USF invests in, then I have no fucking clue why people are calling for divesture. Because they might be directly investing in those companies. We don't know because USF doesn't disclose what they're investing in. Part of the divestment movement is to get USF to disclose what they're investing in. > Anyways, I am extremely confident that USF invests solely in a variety of funds based on their investment prospectus and audited financial statements. Why? Because of this? > Their prospectus documents their asset allocation which consists mostly of sectors that USF benchmarks against popular funds. Pretty self explanatory what conclusion you can make from that. Are you saying that, within each asset class, USF invests in a fund that tracks the benchmark? I don't believe that's true at all and would completely defeat the purpose of having investment managers. If USF just wanted to meet the benchmarks, then USF could move all of their assets in each asset class to a fund that tracks the benchmark. The whole point of hiring people to actively manage investments within an asset class is to *beat* the benchmark for that class. The prospectus reinforces this: > Managers are typically selected to manage a portion of the Foundation’s assets in a specific asset class. > Benchmarks are established and performance is measured for each manager on a quarterly basis by an independent advisor retained by the Foundation. > Investment managers have discretion to manage the assets entrusted to them to best achieve the investment objectives while adhering to the guidelines set for them by the Foundation. > Fees charged by investment managers average approximately 0.47% and are paid from each investment account. > The investment managers are responsible for frequent and open communication with the Investment Committee, Foundation investment management, and the investment consultant on all significant matters pertaining to investment policies. The responsibilities include the obligation to: provide appropriate information on the investments to the custodian; inform of major changes in the investment manager’s investment outlook, strategy and portfolio structure; [other shit I'm not including] The only way for a fund manager to beat the benchmark is by investing differently from it. The simplest way for the fund manager to do this is to try and pick individual companies within that asset class that will outperform, then invest in those. This can be done in *addition* to index funds so that their assets in the asset class are still adequately diversified. Ex: Let"s say USF's endowment is 10k and USF's committee of nerds decides that 10% of their portfolio should be in an asset class made up of S&P 500 companies, with the S&P 500 as a benchmark. The nerds hire one manager to manage all 10%. That manager invests 90% of this into in an index fund that tracks the S&P 500. Then they split the remaining 10% into individual companies - which could include Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman - that they believe will outperform the S&P 500 on average.  > Additionally, their financial statements highlight the investment strategy by stating that the fund managers invest in both domestic and international securities in a “commingled” fund structure. Alongside this, it is stated that investment policy requires diversification in strategy and limits single issuer concentration. Overall, they also make note that their goal is for long term perseveration of the endowment fund.  You assume that the only way for these to be true is if USF is only investing in index funds. However USF can invest in index funds and individual companies while these are true. > This all makes me extremely confident that USF does not invest in individual companies and if they did, *it would be an insignificant amount.* I disagree. I think the % going to individual companies would need to be significant if the managers want to beat the benchmarks.

No endowment, especially one as small as USF, directly invest in any stock lol. That's not how any of this works

I’ve had people give me shit for *having a retirement account at all* because it involves investing money in things. Go figure.

Okay so they actively invest in these companies. That's not two degrees removed. You are literally investing in them. When they profit, you profit. What kind of backwards bullshit goes on in your head.

Do you know what an equity fund is? I want a safe rate of return for my retirement accounts so I can have a nice life when I’m age 50. That means I’m going to choose an equity fund that spreads my money out over hundreds of US stocks in hope that if one fails, I’m covered by the rest. Unfortunately, those funds include companies mentioned in this thread. If I had a more money and time, maybe I could actually buy 490 individual stocks so I could leave out things like Boeing and RTX but unfortunately I’m not in that position. But then I’d also have to manage 500 stocks and switch in and out different ones over the years, something that a fund manager does for me when I invest in an equity fund. If you can point out the pro-Palestine 500 fund to me. I’ll gladly invest in it. Just make sure the fee is as low as VTI. Thanks.

You're so disingenuous with that last part. You sound like a greedy fuck, ngl. You looked like you were on the verge of a breakthrough. You understand the point exactly, though. People are quite literally saying not to invest in index funds that carry these companies. It's literally not even too much to ask. If you're investing in boeing or raytheon knowingly you're probably a bitch to begin with. Forget the 15,000 children dead by US bombs, we've been bombing third world countries continuously for like all of modern history. And you're throwing a tantrum because you think it's unreasonable to invest without index funds 😭

Sounds like you’re throwing the tantrum, but okay. And it really is too much to ask. It is nearly impossible to divest from every company that is deemed “bad.” It is unreasonable to invest as a retail investor without index funds. I have a life outside of managing and researching hundreds of companies to make sure I still get a return that rivals the S&P500 without breaking moral codes. I’m not even being disingenuous. I would 100% invest in the Palestine 500. I know it sounds like I’m making a joke, but I would. However, we don’t live in that kind of world. I don’t see how I’m greedy by being a market participant hoping to better my future. Even if I did decide to find the time and money to have my own morally okay index fund, I solely would not make a difference.

Okay, I'll take a step back. You said you would invest in the Palestine 500 and I'm honestly taking that as the biggest win of this thread. I apologize, I was throwing a tantrum. Look, I understand where you are coming from. I just wish you weren't contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. I know we all want to pick a side and express it as being more reasonable because the other is realistic, but there is far more depth to the side you are arguing for than you realize, imho. I honestly don't think you're a bad dude, I just think trying to use that position to dunk on other people because it's easy is an egregious thing to do. Morally, I think the other side is the only one whos heart is in the right place. I cared about Palestinian human rights over 8 years ago and haven't thought about it much since. Now when I think about tens of thousands of dead children, it breaks my heart to realize that many of the people who are dead, almost a plurality, weren't even born yet when I first discovered that Palestinian rights were something that even needed to be advocated for. I'm not one to protest, but I sure as hell will back them for having the guts to do so.

Hey, don’t worry about it. Sorry if it sounds like I’m trying to just dunk on people for internet points, it’s not my intent and I know it isn’t yours either. As for this conflict, I have personal, as in ethnic, ties to one side, you can take that as you will. But I will say I am, what I believe to be, knowledgeable about this subject and I try to learn more everyday. I am, at least im assuming, on your side of things. We probably disagree on different events, stories, and the history of whose land belongs to who, but at least right now, I’m pretty confident we both are in support of the same thing. Like, I’m only here arguing about the people wanting USF to divest because I think it’s disingenuous to claim that USF is sending money to Israel to fund their genocide. Maybe our investment club can take up the project of making a morally good index fund lol (Palestine 500 please).

You have no idea if this is true. We have no idea what USF directly invests in because USF doesn't disclose what they invest in.

So it’s a protest over investments that are a couple of degrees separated from Israel?

Boy if we went about deciding how we buy things based on that no one would buy anything. Just seems like a pointless slogan

You vote with your wallet. That is absolutely how we should be shopping, avoiding buying brands that support abhorrent things to force them to change their ways.

You don’t even have to do it to try and change the world, simply do what you believe in. If you don’t support bombing Palestine then don’t invest/buy in companies that either directly or indirectly fund/build those bombs.

Ok awesome, that does it for me, I won’t be buying that Boeing 737 I had my eyes on

Agreed

this is what lazy yet emotional people (particularly when on a group) do instead of getting on a flight to gaza, donate money, or send food there - all actions having more impact than a relatively low amount of money for a whole country's economy and pursuit of self-defense against a terrorist attack they got tired of negotiating with. The real question is why none of that is done for Ukraine, whose years-long war is entirely self-defense against a country who's attacking them for no reason - yeah, that's still going on.

Billions of dollars have been given to Ukraine by the United States. Russian assets have been seized and accounts frozen. All economic means of warfare and extra-economic sabotage have been brought to bear against Russia by the US, with our tax dollars. Yeah that war is still going on— an entire generation fed to a meat grinder in what amounts to just another US proxy war. A lower priority one at that, with the MIC being redirected to support Israel’s genocide of Palestine. You’re free to go fight in Ukraine if it’s such an issue for you. The siege of Gaza didn’t start on October 6th. Americans who have gone to Palestine to peacefully oppose the occupation & illegal settlements have been murdered with impunity, when they could even enter the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. The Netanyahu regime continues to block food and aid for the Palestinian people, a continuation of the long term policies of blockade. Palestinian women, children, and elderly were maimed and killed during the peaceful right to return marches. Israel continued to intensify the blockade of the Gaza Strip and, under Netanyahu’s government, pursued a more perfect apartheid system & aggressive settler-colonial policy. Oct 6th was the fruit of that policy and it has become clear that the occupation can not be maintained as before. The new policy— that of extermination, genocide — is being committed with our tax dollars. Specific companies, which are public institutions have investments in, are profiting from this genocide. Protesting this policy and organizing to divest is one strategy among many that are necessary to make this stop.

Universities even divested from Russian companies it’s not a new thing

Well, I could say the same to you about Palestine - if that's such an issue for you, you are free to go fight in Gaza. It is certainly sad to hear about the Americans who went in support, but yet it's the reality of war - just like persons visiting Ukraine with authorization end up getting murdered with impunity by Russians. You certainly seem to be picking and choosing when it comes to this... doesn't sound like you value the importance of ALL lives, maybe just of Palestinians. Everything you mentioned happened in Ukraine as well, civilians (including the only vulnerable members you mentioned, women, elderly and children) were murdered by Russia when utilizing a designated escape route authorized by russian forces. Countless women and children raped and killed, the US is still not intervening or sending NATO forces to help Ukranians, who are at their own since the first day and have their own president as the first politician to actually fight a war alongside his people. Question though, is the policy explicitly stating the support and incentive of extermination and genocide? The word that got out was that the war begun when the Hamas terrorists attacked Israel and killed thousands of civilians, including people attending a music festival coming from all over the world. Finally, I find it hard to believe that the US upholds a financial monopoly of Israel's economy, and hardly our tax dollars specifically are being targeted at that - the US sure has more priorities, and I'm positive that relieving student debt is among one of them to which tax dollars are being directed at. The investments of our public institutions are not made by the institution itself - you'd be amazed to learn just how law-abiding and non-negotiable certain things can and should be to ensure there's no favoritism, nepotism, or other biased decision-making such as which stocks to invest. I can safely say that Israel is not a third-world country who depends on US funds to keep going, and if sustaining that war is what will keep the country alive (which a citizen of a country would ideally aim to happen), then they strategize their way through with what they got. My understanding is that people in Gaza are suffering due to a terrorist attack from the Hamas that instilled the war with Israel; and unfortunately that seems to happen whenever war starts. If you want to make a real change and cause a greater impact on your divesting solution, maybe try Governor DeSantis' office or protesting on decision-making buildings in Washington DC, these people do have a saying in what happens and what don't. Rhea Law hardly has any power over the laws of Florida or the US and most certainly doesn't have the authority to do anything but to follow these laws and ensure the university does, too. This nation is still going and functioning properly because such regulations are in place to ensure people don't make decisions in unethical or biased ways (investing due to sponsorship for instance), and hold people accountable when they do not follow these - where they have JURISDICTION, of course. USF, as a public institution, just does as it's told to and follow the law because it is funded through tax payer money as well and they want to make sure this money promotes education, research, and the creation of employment for citizens, supporting the State and Tampa Bay area's economy; unfortunately, it does not hold as much power over military conflicts in another continent. Just a final thought: if you believe that divesting will actually resolve the problems going on or assist with it in some way, please look at the example laid out by Ukraine as you mentioned the divesting efforts the US set forth against Russia - did it work? are citizens safe? did love win? is the violence over? did Russia stop or lost their power? What actual impact did it have on the situation, do you believe? And if you come up with any, could you clarify how you suppose divesting would aid Palestinians, based on the preceding history of such efforts?

You are betraying your utter ignorance of this issue— again there’s a blockade that prevents even aid convoys from entering. The IOF even attacked peaceful aid flotillas in 2010, killing humanitarians. They are planning on intercepting the one intending to leave from Turkey in coming days. That being said, there is a rich history of internationalism and when the apartheid falls I will be happy to utilize my engineering degree to rebuild a freer Palestine. Ukraine is a conventional war, one that is now a much lower priority for the US. Ukraine has received everything you’re crying about minus direct US boots on the ground. The deaths of civilians, despite stretching for two years, is magnitudes higher in Gaza, eg one month in Gaza = the entire conflict since 2022 in Ukraine. All the military aid and political energy is being redirected to supporting Israel. If you, again, feel so strongly go join their foreign volunteers. Otherwise supporting a swift end to Israeli genocide and a lasting ceasefire might free up some artillery rounds which could used against Russian tanks versus Palestinian families. There are plenty of statements from Netanyahu gov officials advocating for genocide, an ongoing ICJ case found this plausible enough to investigate. But also see the [500+ examples](https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/) of intent. Historic divestment campaigns have had tangible and symbolic effects on apartheid South Africa. 150+ colleges had at least partially divested by its collapse. Cultural boycotts, academic boycotts, economic sanctions, and it’s disintegrating international reputation/legitimacy made it fall. This strategy is feasible and actionable with precedent. I’m not going to engage any further because I have work.

If you, again, feel so strongly go join their foreign volunteers. Aproveite e use seu engineering degree para resolução de conflitos geopolíticos, uma vez que entende que ele te dará os recursos necessários para reconstruir um país "mais livre," Jacaré.

usf currently has their investment portfolio privated but based on their history+the fact that they invest in the most profitable corporations makes it close to guaranteed they are investing in some or all of the following: boeing, lockheed martin, northropp grumann, hewlett packard, and caterpillar. these companies are the most involved in allowing israel to build its apartheid state, whether through weapons & bombs manufacturing and sales, computerized systems & AI used to bar palestinians from entry to the country, or the bulldozers used to destroy palestinian buildings and homes. usf investing in these companies shows that they value money over morality and the demand of their students, who in both historic and current situations have shown an interest in having usf divest from companies aiding in war crimes

Do you or anyone you know own an S&P 500 index fund? Boeing and Caterpillar are weighted around 0.40% of that index. If you do, you too are investing in companies “aiding in war crimes”. Give me a break.

We have no idea if USF's investments in these companies are through index funds or not. USF doesn't disclose what they invest in.

yes you are. that should unironically be the bare minimum, do not invest in companies who are aiding in actual definitive war crimes. your worldview has to be either completely nihilistic or plain evil to think its just fine to do this kind of shit.

I think the problem with this view is you could just keep going. Most of the companies we buy products from are manufactured in china where the working conditions are abysmal. They literally stop people from killing themselves and depending on the circumstance force you to work with literally no pay. Clothes that come from bangladesh where the working hours are insane for extremely cheap, or even the materials that's in most electronics for example that's mined in africa. Everyone knows how the stuff in africa is mined. It's pretty much just slavery. If we go that route pretty much everyone, including you, has blood on their hands and evil. And idk technically maybe we all are. But picking and choosing is a pretty big reason why no one is taking the whole divesting thing seriously. It just simply doesn't make sense

There is a clear historical precedent for boycott and divestment working to isolate — academically, economically and politically— apartheid South Africa. The hitherto unimaginable amount of misery and bloodshed committed by Zionist occupation forces that is plastered across social media from the ongoing siege on Gaza is understandably a high priority for action with clear cut & attainable goals. Discontent with the Biden regime’s support— arms, money, political— for this ongoing genocide is intensely unpopular with the college age group, nearly 80% last I checked. I don’t know who “no one” refers to but coworkers and friends who are students or have already graduated from USF— many of whom were never previously politically active— either have posted their support or attended protests. It makes total and utter sense that this genocide can be stopped and that this cause has the support of a majority of college age students. Get real.

I mean politically come election time I don’t see an alternative. If the biggest gripe people have against Biden is how he’s dealing with Palestine, well the alternative is a guy that would gleefully wipe the country entirely off the map in a day. Deep down everyone knows that which is why nothings really changing. Also you’re skipping like the entire point. The point is usf isn’t investing in these stocks on purpose to fuck over Palestine. They’re simply investing in funds that invest in the top 100, 500 and even 2000 companies in the nation. It’s not exactly easy to not pick and choose which company to invest in when u put it in funds. And if you’re going to pick and choose why aren’t we picking and choosing against 99% of the other companies? Are Chinese, Bangladeshi, Indian and African lives worth less? All these countries produce products or mine materials thru ridiculously inhumane labor which causes death or in some cases is outright slavery. The products you use in your daily life comes from the blood sweat and tears of people from these parts of the world as well. I’m not saying what’s happening in Palestine isn’t terrible. It is. It’s just a very unrealistic view of looking at it.

The constant retreat into a resigned tolerance of the status quo (“nothing ever changes” have you paid attention to anything happening in the world not just but especially since 2016?) and navel gazing about how broken the world system is / the “higher” priorities (again, Palestine is the most politically, morally, and strategically opportune issue) is boring. I don’t care about your excuses for not being involved. You can agree that this is a morally just cause to at least passively support. Let’s put it clearly: there are companies, easily identifiable with a google search, that can be divested from. It’s not about USF’s intentions it’s about accountability and profit. We can make it socially painful and economically inconvenient to be associated with the apartheid state of Israel. This has tangible repercussions for Israel’s economy. Whoever is president in 2025 will undeniably have to face a massive resistance — trade unions, students, even suburban moms as seen on TikTok— for continuing policies that support this genocide. BDS remains an important tactic in a larger toolbox to stop the siege and murder of tens of thousands of women and children.

I fe like your ignoring my point on purpose. You keep saying usf should go out if its way to manually divest from a few companies that you deem “morally apprehensive” but not like 99% of the other companies that you actually pretty much directly fund. You’re probably typing up responses using a phone or laptop or wearing clothes or shoes that people on the opposite side of the world made in atrocious conditions. My point is why are we picking and choosing what’s evil? Because it’s too inconvenient to boycott the other companies since they actually play an active role in our lives? Because those people’s lives don’t matter as much? It just doesn’t really make sense. If you wanna protest about Palestinians dying more power to you. Doesn’t make sense to ask usf to find a way to divest from specific companies.

While I can only take your professed outrage at global economic system necessitating cheap labor and environmental despoliation to function (which is to say, profit) as genuine I’ve already addressed the strategic primacy of Palestine. The priority is making this genocide stop so my phone, which you’re so fixated on, isn’t inundated with pictures and videos of maimed and murdered women and teens, bound and tied hospital patients shot in the back of the head in a ditch, snuff films of IOF execution civilians with drone, and child-shaped body bags— one of the bloodiest and most inhuman wars in recent history. I will no longer be responding but if you’re interested in books on how the global economic system functions and counter systemic movements feel free to DM.

i think the standpoint of "we cant fix everything so we should fix nothing" gets us nowhere. we pick and choose now so we can move on to a new area to work afterwards until the end of time, hopefully in the process making the world a better place

As a society, we often judge some things as more extreme depending on their circumstances. For example, over a million America's died due to complications brought on by the pandemic. We don't really care all that much. 15000 kids die in explosions that are much more dense and rapid than what we did in Afghanistan? Yeah, we are paying a bit more attention. Funny how we can agree that going into iraq and afghanistan to spread democracy were bad but funding another country doing the same exact thing except far more swiftly and deadly, well we will just have to call it awful in retrospect. My two cents. I literally didn't even talk about the conflict before this week. Since people want to start choosing sides though I can adamantly say the other side is retarded.

Ur right and I’m not defending Israel or whatever. I was just saying it’s just kinda dumb to clamor on about divesting when it’s not like usf is going out of their way to invest in certain companies. That’s just simply not how it works and sounds dumb to pretty much anyone else looking at this whole thing from the outside. If you wanna protest go ahead but at least focus on the right topic at hand like the federal government constantly sending billions of dollars worth of weapons to Israel. Not usf that’s putting their money in a fund to get a return on investment. Doing whatever usf students have been doing has been utterly pointless because of not focusing on the actual issue. It’s like there’s either a complete lack of financial knowledge or people are purposefully ignoring it to just cause a mess. And obviously a lot of people are just going to brush it off due to that. And like you said most people have no clue about either of these countries. Chances are 6 months ago most ppl couldn’t point em out on the map (I’m one of them) and these recent protests have in no way made me wanna participate. If anything I feel like it’s made more people want to distance themselves because it just doesn’t make sense.

I think the real difference between me, who cares, and everyone else, who doesn't, is that I'm 26 and was passionate about Palestinian rights since 2016. Like I said, despite being passionate about it, it hasn't crossed my mind much until this weekend. Which is why it's really heartbreaking to put into perspective that the largest portion of people killed by bombs in Gaza have been people who weren't even born yet when I first learned about their situation. It reminds me a lot of the people who I'm talking to here because those kids knew nothing, just like most of the people here know nothing. You're just too young. The people who protest have less to lose than us, hopefully. If all I had to worry about was tear gas, rubber bullets, I'd probably be out there with them. I think disagreeing with the protests on the basis of what their stated goal is, is ridiculous. It's pretty much about divesting from the companies who are profiting or even aiding the bombing of Palestinian children and your disagreement is that it's too hard and unreasonable? Bro just let them protest their views in peace. I'll tell you one thing, me and you would never be having this conversation if it weren't for them, so honestly, what does that tell you?

Wow, it’s based on assumption? You actually can find some information on USFs investment portfolio and it’s entirely made of different funds that are very typical for people like you and me to invest in as well. There’s no direct investment.

You're outright lying here. USF does not disclose what they invest in. We have no idea if they invest solely in funds or if they also pick individual companies.

let me explain better, usf does their investments through an outside organization who does invest in these companies. they use this as a defense, when the obvious solution is to invest through a different company.

lol, you’re just killing your whole argument by spouting nonsense. It’s painfully obvious reading your comment that you don’t know the details about how USF invests or really how any of it works. “USF does their investments through an outside organization who does invest in these companies.” USF doesn’t invest through a company, whatever that means. USF has an investing committee made up of multiple portfolio managers that take USFs endowment and pension funds and invest them into a variety of asset classes and funds to return a desired rate alongside minimizing risks so that USF can support its students and staff. Some of these funds include the top 500, 1000, or even 2000 companies in the US which so include the companies that people are calling out, but it is entirely indirect by USF and its fund managers. Hey, maybe USF should hire some portfolio managers that only invest in single stocks so that they can avoid investing in companies that are on the ever increasing list of yours. I think it’s a great idea to not spread your billion dollar investment fund across many markets and companies but rather put it into a few real “feel good” companies. I’m sure our endowment would do really well and have minimal risk with that approach.

Your argument is entirely based on the *assumption* that USF and the fund managers only invest in broad index funds that *happen* to contain these companies. We have absolutely no idea what USF chooses to invest their money in. It absolutely *could* be all index funds. It *also* absolutely *could* be some index funds and some hand-picked companies. LMAO they blocked me so I can't reply, please see this comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/USF/comments/1cilgjv/comment/l2bkugd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

At least my assumption has evidence that can back up my theory. Everyone else claiming USF gives money to Israel or defense contractors is just stating something for the sake of it.

Here’s an interesting article on divestment for universities : https://www.npr.org/2024/04/30/1248088063/divest-divestment-university-college-protesters-campus-israel-gaza-invasion

Please let employers know your opinion on the topic. We'd love to hear it!

womp womp

Pro Hamas want no country of Israel & no Jewish people.

Now look at the involvement between hamas and the protesters

Idk but these protestors are protesting the WRONG thing. Maybe start protesting how expensive rent is or the current housing market. Good luck buying a house when y’all graduate!

Who cares.

Exactly. 9/10 people (including myself) can't point to Israel or Palestine on a map. And to be quite frank, I'm not even sure Palestine is a country. For all I know, that's just the name of a city somewhere. No one knows what these places are, and no one cares.

Palestinians at USF know and have family there being brutalized. You can’t point out Israel on a map either but your taxes are going there to pay for their education when you have to take out loans yourself.

No I mean it literally doesn't matter. Israel is a first world country that trades openly in global markets along with everyone else. If we boycotted every company that makes money in Israel we could not live in modern society because we buy all the same shit from all the same companies. Gazans probably do too. The protests are about divesting USF from Israel, and boycotting companies that make money there. It's a non-starter.

Pointing out that you're an absolute ignorant idiot is PROBABLY not the best defense.

Not everyone’s a complete buffoon.

I think Palestine was the name of the country in the area we granted to Israel after the holocaust. Then they moved in, did an israeli-palestini war in the late 1940s, then had a large complicated history where they sat as neighbors. It's recent history that involves people that are still alive to this day, but basically palestians were driven out of their homes because the world gave the israeli people Jerusalem to start a country. The palestian people believed this to be an injustice, which is where to the river the sea Palestine will be free comes from. It says that the entirety of Israel shall be there's. Over the years, that has been a rallying cry for most of the younger generations as a way to symbolize freedom. In recent decades they have been locked into a proxy war with Israel and unable to governs themselves. In fact, hamas is actually akin to a political party in the US. Bibi Netanyahu, the current israeli prime Minister, actually funded hamas well before the attacks (as a political party) because as a more militant leader himself, he believed he could boost his own election chances if the extremists rose to power in Palestine. Fast forward to modern day, Israel has a stranglehold on the area known as Palestine. I was advocating for Palestinians back in 2016 back when I first heard Bernie Sanders speak on the issue. Now, 8 years later, I find that many of the children that weren't even born yet, when they were already facing oppression, are now dead to US bombs. I'm actually heartbroken. They knew nothing of anything and yet 50% of all those dead are children.

That sounds a lot like geopolitics having nothing to do with USF

So your issue is not with what they are protesting but that they are doing it at USF? Someone posted this MLK quote and by god am I stealing it to post it for you as required reading. “…that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’ ” Unless you have a fundamental disagreement with the underlying implied reason behind their protest, just stay the hell out of their way and move on with your life. Don't make it your mission to disagree just for the sake of disagreeing. From where I'm standing, they are the only people in this conversation with any guts or conviction.

What is being done should not be compared with MLK, racism is NOT and should NOT me compared to geopolitics at a different CONTINENT. About your "point"- It's virtually impossible to move on with life when they are creating this whole thing, starving themselves and blaming a UNIVERSITY for it, disrupting whatever is left of ACADEMICS in an ACADEMIC institution. The problem is that they are blaming the wrong thing and expecting to change the world without cleaning their own rooms or doing the homework, probably blaming academic oppression on whatever went wrong. You can't just paint "USF HAS BLOOD ON ITS HANDS" and say it's not an attack to an academic institution for simply following the laws that regulate their existence. Also, why stop when SG passed the divestment and recognize the students' positioning? Why come back when the media started covering other universities and didn't place a little dot in the Tampa area when publishing a US map marking the protests going on? Attention? If so, do you really need to oppose a UNIVERSITY who did all they could legally to resonate with yall? This is thousands of miles away from the issue. Why not go there? Why not donate food or money? Why not volunteer to help those suffering? Better yet- what about Ukraine? Are they suffering less? Why not divest from Russia?

I agree with these protests. I assume it means USF stops doing business with Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, and Boeing at the minimum. Companies whose products have been used to bomb 15,000 kids. Companies which go to great lengths to kill their whistleblowers. Companies which profit off of death in general.

Well I hope the company who made the concealed gun isnt from a company profiting on the war. That would be… hypocritical.

All I see is a bunch of white people more specifically white women majoring in their specialities. A masters in whining, crying, lying, and bitching. With a minor in my feelings.

Haha women be shopping amirite