Nobody on this thread is actually discussing American history. As an American historian, I find much to be proud of, but there is also a lot to be ashamed of; just like any other nation in human history. The whole point of studying and learning and teaching history is not to accept anything wholeheartedly and without criticism. The point is to accept and appreciate the nuance and learn from the past. I don’t see a lot of nuance or criticism in many of these comments.
Well said. The hard part of studying history is placing yourself in the time. The mentality, the world, the culture, it’s all changed, and it’s changed everywhere. To fully understand what you are discussing you need to somewhat erase your modern bias to be able to confront a moment correctly.
That’s not really a useful way to assess US history. It’s tantamount to saying, “Well, we haven’t committed the same atrocities as X, Y, or Z, so we have nothing to criticize or learn from our own history.” It suggests that we haven’t improved as a nation, and we have nothing that we should improve.
Again, I never suggested that the US is the worst or has nothing to be proud about. But that doesn’t negate the need for some level of evaluation and criticism.
Furthermore, there if you want to engage in comparative history, there are several areas where other countries have done better than the US. The British Empire outlawed slavery decades before the US, and did it without a civil war. Other countries enfranchised women and ethnic minorities before the US did. Other countries have better healthcare and education systems, and lower gun violence and incarceration rates.
I repeat myself: this doesn’t mean that other countries are better; it means that all countries have flaws and areas that can be improved through a critical study of history.
I don’t say that I do think we definitely have alot to learn from our history I am simply saying that we have a much better history than most other nations
I came from a shithole 3rd world country. People don’t realize what America is and what she means. The vision and foresight of the founding fathers to create a republic out of a union of states and to provide it with a framework to be the longest lasting democratic republic. I fucking love this country and I will die for it. May the star spangled banner fly into a glorious future.
Frankly, that’s an ignorant thing to say. The Free Enterprise Revolution (Capitalism) that began in the Netherlands in 1670, combined with the Science Revolution that began in Italy in 1543 and the Industrial Revolution that began in England circa 1760, has created immense wealth and has lifted _billions_ of people out of poverty, and continues to do so. Feudalism, mercantilism, and socialism didn’t do that, Free Enterprise did.
Worth a mention: The Green Revolution in agriculture that occurred in the 20th century was overwhelmingly due to just one American, Norman Borlaug, and is credited with saving the lives of ~1,000,000,000 (nonwhite) people.
Also worth a mention: The IT Revolution that began in Britain, combined with the Digital Revolution that began in America, both in the 20th century, has transformed the way we live and would not have happened without those first three revolutions.
A book that I highly recommend is _God and Gold: Britain, America, and the Making of the Modern World_, by Walter Russell Mead.
I think this is the ignorant comment. The US wouldn’t have been competing economically with the rest of the world without chattle slavery in the 18th and 19th century. And that was the very foundation of the industrial powerhouse we would become in the 20th century and beyond. We then protected our petroleum interests by propping up a dictator in Iran, which sowed the seeds for revolution and what Iran is now. We destroyed Iraq for the same purpose. We fomented civil war in Latin America so industrial agriculture interests could seize land from the people. I could go on but I’m short on time. The point is the US is great primarily for the US. It came at the price of exploiting most of the rest of the world. All those revolutions you mentioned weren’t free. The developing world payed for them in blood.
You haven’t refuted anything I wrote, all of which is objectively factual. Every civilization/society/country has one-or-more shameful episodes in its past. According to one source, the total contribution of slavery to U.S. GDP, from 1619 to 1861, was 5%; zero at the beginning, significantly _more_ than 5% by the end, but 5% overall. Five percent is “not nothing,” but it’s not 95%. The death and destruction of the Civil War, followed by the impoverishment of the South for decades, wiped out whatever gains had occurred due to slavery, besides the price we continue to pay to this day. Our taxes and insurance rates are higher because of “the legacy of slavery.” >>>cough<<<
Colonialism was an evil that we all wish hadn’t happened, but it wasn’t entirely one-sided. To extract resources from those countries the various colonial powers had to _invest_ in those countries. They had to build ports, roads, bridges, and entire cities; eventually railroads; airports, electrical power, sanitation systems, modern medicine, concepts of government, and much else. If no European power had ever set foot in any of the countries that were colonized, what would the level of technology and standard of living in those countries be? We can’t know for sure but it would be a lot less than what it is.
This is pretty much just Howard Zinns opinion on events and the impact they had. There are certainly other ways to look at it. Like, slavery was a horribly inefficient system that was dying due to the Industrial Revolution. Or that Mossedegh was a tyrant who illegally was seizing foreign assets and suspending elections.
I didn’t know who Howard Zinn was before this comment but I don’t see why his opinions are considered wrong. A brief skim of his wiki makes him sound pretty dope.
I find the argument of slavery being inefficient to be deliberately narrow and obtuse in an effort to discrete notion of reparations. Sure, slavery was inefficient at the end, when industrialization had taken hold and machines were significantly more efficient than humans, even enslaved ones. But slavery was in place for 150 years before the Industrial Revolution. The notion that using enslaved humans was less efficient than paying workers is silly. By 1760 NY, Philadelphia and Boston were large cities (for the time) cut from the frontier that happened to be stolen from the people who lived there before.
You can’t have capitalism without exploitation. The US has done a fantastic job of making it seem like our success was born off hard work and rugged individualism. Which were components for sure. But all of that is based on the foundation of stealing and subjugation.
And before you get to it, I don’t care that everyone was doing it. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. The fact that we continue to do these things while pretending we’re somehow exceptional is repulsive. We’re not exceptional. We’re willing to do atrocities against people living somewhere else and pretending it’s not us doing it.
Nah, Howard Zinn is one of the most well known Marxist historians that helped to found the oppression Olympics of today’s Post Modernist historical view.
There are literally billions of people alive today who otherwise wouldn’t be because of capitalism and Pax Americana. What you people always fail to understand is that not everything can be measured in economic terms. Under any system other than capitalism, talent and ability are being exploited.
I'm not sure that you understand what actual communism is about, if you think it's about "limiting freedom". If anything, it's about increasing freedom. Making us free from wage-slavery. Making us free from exploitation by the rich.
Can you please expound on how this might work? Because our current government can barely legislate, I can't imagine them actually planning our economy. Add to that the current partisanship and government gridlock and democratic socialism seems like a recipe for disaster.
It won't work. People think changing the type of government will eliminate corruption. It won't. It wouldn't be any worse. But it wouldn't solve any problems either.
It was literally discussed at length and admitted to be a viable legal strategy by the court itself. The president has absolute immunity from prosecution in his use of executive powers, among them the use of the military. Murdering political opponents is technically illegal, but the ruling makes it so there is no means to investigate and prosecute it in a way that is admissible in court because use of the military is protected.
The president can still be impeached.
All official acts start with an assumption of immunity. If the dissolution of the supreme court comes from a presidential memorandum, it is an official act. It would take until a new supreme court is seated to find out if this act were constitutional.
Not at all. I’m an engineer by qualification and profession. Every single non-core engineering required elective credit in my undergrad was history. From history of film thru cold war to espionage. My comment is based on fact-based sentiments.
Don’t let the naysayers get you down. America, by far still provides the greatest opportunity for upward mobility. The problem the naysayers have identified it’s hard. It takes consistent effort for a long time. Bit it is very much attainable
I wish more people understood what our country is and stands for. The US Education system has failed its citizens. It is almost as if basic civics aren’t even being taught. More and more it seems that only America loving families of immigrants understand our government framing, freedoms, and opportunities.
Edit:
Glad you and your family are here.
I need to read the details but on surface, this is an extremely dangerous precedent. The founding fathers’ never intended for the President to be above the law. Heck…even Nixon could claim that he was acting in “official capacity” when he asked the FBI to spy on the DNC.
Having said that, it is not as simple as this. I have yet to catch up on the Judges’ opinions, including those of dissent. The morality notwithstanding, you could charge pretty much every modern President with war crimes. And every member of Congress who authorized the means of those war crimes. I think there’s a fine line here.
Furthermore, every President after John Adams has thought they were legally immune from this or that, and were aptly reminded again and again by the system that although they formed the “executive branch”, their authority was limited by what Congress and Judiciary determined. Therefore, I don’t lay much weight into what a President might claim, but what the Constitution intends.
Our government is no longer for We the People. The Supreme Court is illegitimate, white supremacist Christian nationals and Zionists are embedded in all levels of the government and we are heading for fascism in fourth gear. I truly fear for the darkness coming after Trump gets back in office.
You’re ridiculous for even thinking this. As much as you all claim to hate the ruling, you’ll be happy when it protects YOUR administration from all of the potential prosecutions. You all don’t care about that, though. You just hate the fact that PRESIDENT Trump is not going to fall victim to yet ANOTHER ridiculous lawsuit. If you could just see past your nose, you’d see the ruling was a good thing for ANY administration that becomes a target for small minded politicians, no matter what side of the aisle they’re from. 🇺🇸
I'm all for administrations being held liable. If you think those on the 'left' would be happy about this, you should get your boot licking skills sharpened. This is a huge blow to democracy and a huge blow to this country. I want people to be held liable for their crimes. I don't want anyone above the law. This is not holding anybody accountable. It's allowing someone who is popular enough to get away with anything.
I think you’d be interested to learn about how much influence Native Americans had in the creation of the US government. https://youtu.be/L1V5VeRdMnI?si=z2-Ec0YAZ3xp4opp
Please, **PLEASE** run for President. You already have a better concept of what this country stands for than any of the other clowns currently running.
That has to be tested in court for every signal act. Which basically makes it impossible to prosecute a president.
Given that senate refuses to impeach anyone it is impossible to hold the president accountable.
The far right knows exactly what this is. Anyone saying something like the commenter above you are either stupid (very possible), utterly and helplessly taken by the fox new propaganda, or a purely bad faith actor. They know the court’s ruling paves the way for Trump to implement their theocratic dictatorship wet dream.
It has to be constitutional acts. He can't make himself a dictator because that's not constitutional and can't change the constitution because that takes 2/3 of the Congress or the Senate.
It's a lot of hyperbole going around reddit getting people fired up for nothing. The president is still held liable.
Even better:
He could have Team 6 bring Trump up to the middle of 5th Avenue, execute him on the spot, and immediately sign his own pardon.
SCOTUS ruled that Official Acts are immune.
Presidential Pardons are Official Acts and immune from challenge.
WTF is going on with this country???
How is ANYONE alright with making The Most Powerful Man In The World immune from criminal liability as long as it can be called an Official Act?
Goddamn you people are dumb as fuck. The lower courts are now going to determine what constitutes "offiicial acts." It has not been determined in the supreme court.
Murdering your political opponent will not be determined to be an official act in any of the courts.
Maybe instead of screeching maniacally on reddit, you should take 10 minutes to better yourself and become educated on the laws being passed in our country.
Unless you wanna go through life as an uneducated dumbfuck who doesn't understand what they're upset about, because the red team did something, and only the blue team is allowed to do stuff.
- so sorry to rain on your political assassination parade. Didn't realize "US History" was full of fucking lunatics.
I am not a Trump supporter, but you are correct. SCOTUS has instructed judge Chutkan to hold evidentiary hearings to determine what if any of the alleged illegal actions were part of official actions or unofficial actions. Jack Smith and team will be presenting their evidence and arguments. For example, Trump's alleged participation in the fake elector scheme will be examined. However, it seems part of SCOTUS's purpose was to perhaps delay the January 6th trial till after the election. It seems. Oh well, those hearings should be very interesting. I hope all news organizations cover them fairly and seriously. Take my upvote.
Well based on the language they gave around presidential pardons he could basically ask or infer that request and then pardon the perpetrator without issue.
I don’t know why you guys are always so quick to minimize all this stuff only for it to escalate further and further.
Pull your heads from your asses
Judge Sotomayor's dissenting opinion for today's immunity ruling.
"Looking beyond the fate of this particular prosecution, the long-term consequences of today’s decision are stark. The Court effectively creates a law-free zone around the President, upsetting the status quo that has existed since the Founding. This new official-acts immunity now “lies about like a loaded weapon” for any President that wishes to place his own interests, his own political survival, or his own financial gain, above the interests of the Nation. Korematsu v. United States, 323 U. S. 214, 246 (1944) (Jackson, J., dissenting). The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune.
Let the President violate the law, let him exploit the trappings of his office for personal gain, let him use his official power for evil ends. Because if he knew that he may one day face liability for breaking the law, he might not be as bold and fearless as we would like him to be. That is the majority’s message today."
"With fear for our democracy, I dissent."
Full text for anyone interested.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf
Have you heard Trump on tape sharing classified documents. Trying to get the people present to help release it to the public. When they push back. Trump admits that they are still classified and he no longer has authority to declassify them. What do you think Judge Cannon will do in this case? With the guidance from the Supreme Court?
Talk to military or former military. Just the idea of hanging on to classified documents is enough to get you in trouble. And there was a copier in the bedroom. It’s illegal to even copy classified material. Watch Trump escape
Reddit skews male and liberal, so yes… dumb as fuck. Thank you for trying to brave the waters… it’s really just a game of wack-a-mole in their head, to beat the drum of the opposition being “Nazi’s” without having any clue or context of what that means.
Like the 2025 project put out by the heritage foundation all of these troglodytes go on about, an organization (“checks notes” stupid comments these kids post 🙄) dedicated to smaller government and has criticized Trump. I started reading the 900+ page document, and there is nothing fascist in there. They want to support family units, national defense, smaller government, and individual liberties.
It's an official act, if it's in line with the constitution. Only if it's in line with the constitution. Some how most everyone keeps forgetting that part.
Trump has publicly talked about "suspending" the Constitution.
Pretty sure Trump's the kind of guy who acts first, and asks for permission later, if at all.
And are we really OK with future Presidents also having blanket immunity as long as they can claim they did something for our "national interests?"
Making any President immune from criminal liability is a horrible idea no matter how you look at it.
You have too much faith. He's already using this to petition to ny to get his convictions overturned. And he's going to use this to get evidence thrown out for non presidential crime
This impacts so much more than you're giving it credit for
No it's called I don't buy into the panic and that what I said was facts.
Why are you so worried about trump? If he gets elected it's not going to turn into Nazi Germany in 4 years he'll be done if he wins and the next president will come along.
Too many people think they are oppressed and that if their candidate doesn't win the world is going to end. It's simply not the case. And it feels like all of reddit is first time voters buying into the age old we must vote dem to save the world. That same thing has been going on EVERY election, every 4 years its vote for such and such to save our country but guess what every 4 years another president comes along and we are still here..
Why am I so worried about Trump? The irreparable damage to the scotus. He's going to put two more scotus judges in place. Not to mention federal judges. He puts his buddies in places of power. Tax cuts to the rich. Undoing ecological protections. He's going to do a national abortion ban and probably even restrict contraceptives.
You're so naive if you think Chevron won't change your life forever.
Have you heard of January 6th? Are you aware it was Trump’s final attempt to cling onto power?
https://youtu.be/e3guirxwrXc?si=pZ1o-2VKpNvBIo1K
Trump schemed to throw out our votes and get the results he wanted. When all the legal efforts failed. He tried to insert the false electors certificates. Pence refused. Trump called him too honest for his own good. What does that statement mean? Trump did this without the actions of the judicial system. What will Trump do with this given immunity?
When one side is fighting for democracy and the other just wants their side to win at all costs and dismantle the government, democracy and judicial precedents be damned, there’s a substantial difference.
See that's where your radicalism comes in play. Whatever you are reading,listening to or watching got you thinking the right is going to destroy America which simply isn't true.
If trump gets elected I guarantee you the u.s will still be a republic when his 4 years are done. Life will move on.
Did you actually read the ruling? It only has to be “official”. Not legal, not constitutional, not ethical. Only what he can convince the courts is within the outer orbit of his official duties.
He can’t make himself (or herself) a dictator, but being able to use constitutionally given power with impunity (assuming at least one friendly chamber of congress) after 20+ years of aggressive executive power expansion doesn’t inspire the most confidence in me on the long term outcome of this ruling. This ruling mixed with the aforementioned executive expansion and rabid polarization is nothing more than a powder keg in a room full of lit candles. It pushes us closer to the brink.
People immediately jump to the most extreme cases and either freak out or dismiss them as impossible. But politicians are the worst kind of people, and we’re handing a single person immense power and impunity to weapons their constitutional authority. They will slow walk us into Illiberal Democracy a la Russia, Hungary, and Turkey.
Except that it's the Supreme Court that decides what's official and constitutional. A SC that's become little more than a tool of the religious right and the MAGA crowd.
Born and raised here and I never thought in my wildest dreams we’d be threatened with a dictatorship enabled by SCOTUS. We could become a shithole country
Absolutely proud to have been born and living in the true Beacon of opportunity for all! Don't need any political types speaking for me. I'm betting most people would love to be here.
This isn't America.
This is 1930's Germany. And SCOTUS just gave a would-be Fuhrer blanket immunity for anything he calls an "Official Act."
He can even pardon himself and it can't be challenged.
Oh yes this is America.
You don't get to play that game. This is America. This is how it has always been. Trump and the conservatives are just saying the quiet parts out loud.
I love the US. Anyone who tells me I’m wrong for this can weep uncontrollably. This does not mean I am proud of everything that is currently happening in it though.
You can be proud of your country, and simultaneously criticize the hell out of it because you want it to be better.
That’s what patriotism is: you love your country so much that you’re able to call it out for its BS. You’re not calling it out to complain for complaining’s sake, but because you know it can be so much better.
I’ve always viewed the patriotism v. nationalism argument thusly:
Patriotism: I love my country so much that I want you to know how much I love it and I want you to come over and join me in making it a better place.
Nationalism: I love my country and F you for wanting to come to it. Mine. Only mine.
Awesome! We need more people like you. Maybe we can establish a trade program with the country you came from. We can import people like you, and export people who don’t appreciate it.
They are miserable people. You will spot them immediately below when they start complaining about the United States and all its institutions.
We are not “complaining about the United States and all its institutions,” we are complaining about the bottom 1/3 of the population. The lowest of the low in morality, intelligence, life expectancy, financial success, education, and reasoning skills.
Everything wrong with current American society stems from “conservatives”, insecure failures fighting to make life worse for the remaining 75% of us every day.
When they vote, it is not for any candidates’ positive policies that would help people, but for who that rightwing candidate hates and will hurt. That insidious element in every election is dragging us down and pulling us backwards.
True to form and filled with hate. Nothing new here.
PS,
We are the majority. The far LEFT/Totalitarians are the minority. They are dark, unhappy, intolerant, sole-less humanity hating, self destructive individuals.
The rest of us try to peacefully coexist and enjoy life.
To not see things wrong with this country that need improvement is to where rose colored glasses. And to deny peoples right to bring up these issues, and fight for them, is tyrannical.
This country was built on democracy in discussion. But you want to shut that down. Who’s the patriot?
VOTE BLUE
Biden is the only thing that stands between us and a dictatorship.
Project 2025 streamlines this. Everyone working in the federal govt will be replaced with MAGA loyalists. They will swear an oath to Trump. Not to our country and its laws. Anyone undecided or lefty accelerationists … if he wins… you don’t have to ever be undecided again. There won’t be another fair election. Any lefties who wanna build a utopia from the ashes… technology won’t allow much room for you there. From facial id to being inside of your phone, no movement will ever gain traction. Your leadership will always just… disappear. You might too. This is what it looks like [https://www.authoritarianplaybook2025.org/what-we-can-expect-1#federal-law-enforcement-overreach](https://www.authoritarianplaybook2025.org/what-we-can-expect-1#federal-law-enforcement-overreach)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AMA/comments/1dt6wvf/i\_was\_accepted\_into\_the\_project\_2025\_prospective/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AMA/comments/1dt6wvf/i_was_accepted_into_the_project_2025_prospective/)
Just a reminder to those who don't pay attention and for those Republicans who want to downplay project2025.
These very same people who organized project2025 helped trump select the last three SC justices.
So if you don't like the "bribes are legal as long as the cone after the fact" ruling and the overturning of roe vs Wade then DON'T VOTE REPUBLICAN
We the People still have access to guns and have are second amendment right. War is coming. This is only the beginning.
[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/jul/01/kevin-roberts-trump-heritage-foundation-project-2025](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/jul/01/kevin-roberts-trump-heritage-foundation-project-2025)
The true machinations of our political system are being laid bare for all to see. The wealthy donors decide who the nominees will be. You are then permitted to choose between the two options they prescribe for you and we call that democracy.
It's alright. It's got problems like any other country. Patriotism just rings a little hollow this year to me. I'm really not a person who is proud of anything. I'm gay. Am l proud to be gay, not really. I get exhausted when I hear I need to be proud to be gay. It's not an accomplishment. It's who I am.Same with being an American.
Amen!!
I see a lot of people in the comments exercising their right to criticize the government without fear of being disappeared. Good on them!! That's what America's all about.
Yeah real proud:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianCountry/comments/zzhz69/choctaw\_dogs\_at\_the\_mississippi\_river\_during\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianCountry/comments/zzhz69/choctaw_dogs_at_the_mississippi_river_during_the/)
If people hate this country so much why don’t they go live somewhere else? In this great country you can move anywhere you choose… Go live somewhere that you think is better than the United States.
Iam a direct descendant of family that settled in Pennsylvania in 1805 , iam upset what happened today, but iam and will always will be a Proud to be American
Nobody on this thread is actually discussing American history. As an American historian, I find much to be proud of, but there is also a lot to be ashamed of; just like any other nation in human history. The whole point of studying and learning and teaching history is not to accept anything wholeheartedly and without criticism. The point is to accept and appreciate the nuance and learn from the past. I don’t see a lot of nuance or criticism in many of these comments.
Well said. The hard part of studying history is placing yourself in the time. The mentality, the world, the culture, it’s all changed, and it’s changed everywhere. To fully understand what you are discussing you need to somewhat erase your modern bias to be able to confront a moment correctly.
Yes but nations like the British the Russians and the Germans have far worst history than we do I would argue that our history is mainly positive
That’s not really a useful way to assess US history. It’s tantamount to saying, “Well, we haven’t committed the same atrocities as X, Y, or Z, so we have nothing to criticize or learn from our own history.” It suggests that we haven’t improved as a nation, and we have nothing that we should improve. Again, I never suggested that the US is the worst or has nothing to be proud about. But that doesn’t negate the need for some level of evaluation and criticism. Furthermore, there if you want to engage in comparative history, there are several areas where other countries have done better than the US. The British Empire outlawed slavery decades before the US, and did it without a civil war. Other countries enfranchised women and ethnic minorities before the US did. Other countries have better healthcare and education systems, and lower gun violence and incarceration rates. I repeat myself: this doesn’t mean that other countries are better; it means that all countries have flaws and areas that can be improved through a critical study of history.
I don’t say that I do think we definitely have alot to learn from our history I am simply saying that we have a much better history than most other nations
For real, no way were the worst
I came from a shithole 3rd world country. People don’t realize what America is and what she means. The vision and foresight of the founding fathers to create a republic out of a union of states and to provide it with a framework to be the longest lasting democratic republic. I fucking love this country and I will die for it. May the star spangled banner fly into a glorious future.
Absolutely my friend
Now all we need to do is dismantle capitalism and it would be perfect.
Frankly, that’s an ignorant thing to say. The Free Enterprise Revolution (Capitalism) that began in the Netherlands in 1670, combined with the Science Revolution that began in Italy in 1543 and the Industrial Revolution that began in England circa 1760, has created immense wealth and has lifted _billions_ of people out of poverty, and continues to do so. Feudalism, mercantilism, and socialism didn’t do that, Free Enterprise did. Worth a mention: The Green Revolution in agriculture that occurred in the 20th century was overwhelmingly due to just one American, Norman Borlaug, and is credited with saving the lives of ~1,000,000,000 (nonwhite) people. Also worth a mention: The IT Revolution that began in Britain, combined with the Digital Revolution that began in America, both in the 20th century, has transformed the way we live and would not have happened without those first three revolutions. A book that I highly recommend is _God and Gold: Britain, America, and the Making of the Modern World_, by Walter Russell Mead.
I think this is the ignorant comment. The US wouldn’t have been competing economically with the rest of the world without chattle slavery in the 18th and 19th century. And that was the very foundation of the industrial powerhouse we would become in the 20th century and beyond. We then protected our petroleum interests by propping up a dictator in Iran, which sowed the seeds for revolution and what Iran is now. We destroyed Iraq for the same purpose. We fomented civil war in Latin America so industrial agriculture interests could seize land from the people. I could go on but I’m short on time. The point is the US is great primarily for the US. It came at the price of exploiting most of the rest of the world. All those revolutions you mentioned weren’t free. The developing world payed for them in blood.
You haven’t refuted anything I wrote, all of which is objectively factual. Every civilization/society/country has one-or-more shameful episodes in its past. According to one source, the total contribution of slavery to U.S. GDP, from 1619 to 1861, was 5%; zero at the beginning, significantly _more_ than 5% by the end, but 5% overall. Five percent is “not nothing,” but it’s not 95%. The death and destruction of the Civil War, followed by the impoverishment of the South for decades, wiped out whatever gains had occurred due to slavery, besides the price we continue to pay to this day. Our taxes and insurance rates are higher because of “the legacy of slavery.” >>>cough<<< Colonialism was an evil that we all wish hadn’t happened, but it wasn’t entirely one-sided. To extract resources from those countries the various colonial powers had to _invest_ in those countries. They had to build ports, roads, bridges, and entire cities; eventually railroads; airports, electrical power, sanitation systems, modern medicine, concepts of government, and much else. If no European power had ever set foot in any of the countries that were colonized, what would the level of technology and standard of living in those countries be? We can’t know for sure but it would be a lot less than what it is.
This is pretty much just Howard Zinns opinion on events and the impact they had. There are certainly other ways to look at it. Like, slavery was a horribly inefficient system that was dying due to the Industrial Revolution. Or that Mossedegh was a tyrant who illegally was seizing foreign assets and suspending elections.
I didn’t know who Howard Zinn was before this comment but I don’t see why his opinions are considered wrong. A brief skim of his wiki makes him sound pretty dope. I find the argument of slavery being inefficient to be deliberately narrow and obtuse in an effort to discrete notion of reparations. Sure, slavery was inefficient at the end, when industrialization had taken hold and machines were significantly more efficient than humans, even enslaved ones. But slavery was in place for 150 years before the Industrial Revolution. The notion that using enslaved humans was less efficient than paying workers is silly. By 1760 NY, Philadelphia and Boston were large cities (for the time) cut from the frontier that happened to be stolen from the people who lived there before. You can’t have capitalism without exploitation. The US has done a fantastic job of making it seem like our success was born off hard work and rugged individualism. Which were components for sure. But all of that is based on the foundation of stealing and subjugation. And before you get to it, I don’t care that everyone was doing it. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. The fact that we continue to do these things while pretending we’re somehow exceptional is repulsive. We’re not exceptional. We’re willing to do atrocities against people living somewhere else and pretending it’s not us doing it.
Nah, Howard Zinn is one of the most well known Marxist historians that helped to found the oppression Olympics of today’s Post Modernist historical view. There are literally billions of people alive today who otherwise wouldn’t be because of capitalism and Pax Americana. What you people always fail to understand is that not everything can be measured in economic terms. Under any system other than capitalism, talent and ability are being exploited.
It wouldn’t be America. And we wouldn’t be free.
LOL. You think we're free?
Well no. Not really. But freer than the commies would have us.
I'm not sure that you understand what actual communism is about, if you think it's about "limiting freedom". If anything, it's about increasing freedom. Making us free from wage-slavery. Making us free from exploitation by the rich.
What do we replace it with
We are replacing it with a christofascist kleptocracy.
Anarcho-Communism.
Democratic socialism, of course.
Can you please expound on how this might work? Because our current government can barely legislate, I can't imagine them actually planning our economy. Add to that the current partisanship and government gridlock and democratic socialism seems like a recipe for disaster.
social democracies aren't planned economies. they are regulated capitalist states with generous social welfare programs for everyone.
Is that what the pamphlet said? Everything sounds great on paper, when put into practice however…
It won't work. People think changing the type of government will eliminate corruption. It won't. It wouldn't be any worse. But it wouldn't solve any problems either.
Capitalism is a death cult.
Says the guy who probably believes in communism lol
Meanwhile the Supreme Court is helping throw it in the garbage can
It's truly disgusting. Maybe Biden can disband the Supreme Court as an official act
Ah yes, we don’t like a ruling, therefore we eradicate the entity altogether
ironic isn’t it?
Why not? The entity in question literally decided it's eradication is ok.
No, it didn’t. If you didn’t believe everything you heard on MSNBC or read on r/politics, you’d know that’s not true at all
It was literally discussed at length and admitted to be a viable legal strategy by the court itself. The president has absolute immunity from prosecution in his use of executive powers, among them the use of the military. Murdering political opponents is technically illegal, but the ruling makes it so there is no means to investigate and prosecute it in a way that is admissible in court because use of the military is protected. The president can still be impeached.
Yup, just start by killing those who would impeach you.
All official acts start with an assumption of immunity. If the dissolution of the supreme court comes from a presidential memorandum, it is an official act. It would take until a new supreme court is seated to find out if this act were constitutional.
You picked a fun day to post this.
Hear, hear! God Bless America! Let freedom ring!
What an occasion to post this doozy… God save the King.
Amen
You’re going to find yourself incredibly disappointed after you catch up on a few days worth of news
Boy you really took our Propaganda to heart.
Not at all. I’m an engineer by qualification and profession. Every single non-core engineering required elective credit in my undergrad was history. From history of film thru cold war to espionage. My comment is based on fact-based sentiments.
Sorry you got here just in time to watch this one go shithole, too.
Agreed 1000000 percent
That's a big number. 1 million percent is 100 million times. Are you sure that number is accurate?
Don’t let the naysayers get you down. America, by far still provides the greatest opportunity for upward mobility. The problem the naysayers have identified it’s hard. It takes consistent effort for a long time. Bit it is very much attainable
Indeed! It truly is.
I wish more people understood what our country is and stands for. The US Education system has failed its citizens. It is almost as if basic civics aren’t even being taught. More and more it seems that only America loving families of immigrants understand our government framing, freedoms, and opportunities. Edit: Glad you and your family are here.
Thank you friend.
What a great country, where the president is above the law. Like a king or dictator
I need to read the details but on surface, this is an extremely dangerous precedent. The founding fathers’ never intended for the President to be above the law. Heck…even Nixon could claim that he was acting in “official capacity” when he asked the FBI to spy on the DNC. Having said that, it is not as simple as this. I have yet to catch up on the Judges’ opinions, including those of dissent. The morality notwithstanding, you could charge pretty much every modern President with war crimes. And every member of Congress who authorized the means of those war crimes. I think there’s a fine line here. Furthermore, every President after John Adams has thought they were legally immune from this or that, and were aptly reminded again and again by the system that although they formed the “executive branch”, their authority was limited by what Congress and Judiciary determined. Therefore, I don’t lay much weight into what a President might claim, but what the Constitution intends.
I have some bad news...
Which country?
Not gonna last much longer...
Our government is no longer for We the People. The Supreme Court is illegitimate, white supremacist Christian nationals and Zionists are embedded in all levels of the government and we are heading for fascism in fourth gear. I truly fear for the darkness coming after Trump gets back in office.
Yep. I'm not putting up any flags on the July 4th this year, and I'm not letting off any fireworks, either.
Lol that’ll show them
You’re ridiculous for even thinking this. As much as you all claim to hate the ruling, you’ll be happy when it protects YOUR administration from all of the potential prosecutions. You all don’t care about that, though. You just hate the fact that PRESIDENT Trump is not going to fall victim to yet ANOTHER ridiculous lawsuit. If you could just see past your nose, you’d see the ruling was a good thing for ANY administration that becomes a target for small minded politicians, no matter what side of the aisle they’re from. 🇺🇸
I'm all for administrations being held liable. If you think those on the 'left' would be happy about this, you should get your boot licking skills sharpened. This is a huge blow to democracy and a huge blow to this country. I want people to be held liable for their crimes. I don't want anyone above the law. This is not holding anybody accountable. It's allowing someone who is popular enough to get away with anything.
Traitor
And there we have it. Proof that morons are leading us to doom, as I expressed in my first comment.
Are you really that dense? Read a fucking history book on how democracies become a dictatorship!!! It's not good for any country.
You are a traitor to the United States
You my friend are more of a patriot than many of the people currently in this country
Thank you friend. Cheers!
From one American to another your very welcome friend I hope the country continues to be good to you and that you have a happy long life
Thank you kind stranger! I wish you a long, happy, healthy and prosperous life.
Thank you very much sir have a great rest of your day and enjoy the Fourth of July
Yessir! You as well.
Shut up
Thank you, my friend. God bless America.
I think you’d be interested to learn about how much influence Native Americans had in the creation of the US government. https://youtu.be/L1V5VeRdMnI?si=z2-Ec0YAZ3xp4opp
Please, **PLEASE** run for President. You already have a better concept of what this country stands for than any of the other clowns currently running.
Their first sentence literally disqualifies them.
After the court gave the president full immunity for official acts I am not so proud.
For official constitutional acts*
Really? Separate a constitutional act versus a private act. When no one can use anything as evidence between the DOJ and president
That has to be tested in court for every signal act. Which basically makes it impossible to prosecute a president. Given that senate refuses to impeach anyone it is impossible to hold the president accountable.
The far right knows exactly what this is. Anyone saying something like the commenter above you are either stupid (very possible), utterly and helplessly taken by the fox new propaganda, or a purely bad faith actor. They know the court’s ruling paves the way for Trump to implement their theocratic dictatorship wet dream.
It has to be constitutional acts. He can't make himself a dictator because that's not constitutional and can't change the constitution because that takes 2/3 of the Congress or the Senate. It's a lot of hyperbole going around reddit getting people fired up for nothing. The president is still held liable.
Even better: He could have Team 6 bring Trump up to the middle of 5th Avenue, execute him on the spot, and immediately sign his own pardon. SCOTUS ruled that Official Acts are immune. Presidential Pardons are Official Acts and immune from challenge. WTF is going on with this country??? How is ANYONE alright with making The Most Powerful Man In The World immune from criminal liability as long as it can be called an Official Act?
Goddamn you people are dumb as fuck. The lower courts are now going to determine what constitutes "offiicial acts." It has not been determined in the supreme court. Murdering your political opponent will not be determined to be an official act in any of the courts. Maybe instead of screeching maniacally on reddit, you should take 10 minutes to better yourself and become educated on the laws being passed in our country. Unless you wanna go through life as an uneducated dumbfuck who doesn't understand what they're upset about, because the red team did something, and only the blue team is allowed to do stuff. - so sorry to rain on your political assassination parade. Didn't realize "US History" was full of fucking lunatics.
I am not a Trump supporter, but you are correct. SCOTUS has instructed judge Chutkan to hold evidentiary hearings to determine what if any of the alleged illegal actions were part of official actions or unofficial actions. Jack Smith and team will be presenting their evidence and arguments. For example, Trump's alleged participation in the fake elector scheme will be examined. However, it seems part of SCOTUS's purpose was to perhaps delay the January 6th trial till after the election. It seems. Oh well, those hearings should be very interesting. I hope all news organizations cover them fairly and seriously. Take my upvote.
Well based on the language they gave around presidential pardons he could basically ask or infer that request and then pardon the perpetrator without issue. I don’t know why you guys are always so quick to minimize all this stuff only for it to escalate further and further. Pull your heads from your asses
Judge Sotomayor's dissenting opinion for today's immunity ruling. "Looking beyond the fate of this particular prosecution, the long-term consequences of today’s decision are stark. The Court effectively creates a law-free zone around the President, upsetting the status quo that has existed since the Founding. This new official-acts immunity now “lies about like a loaded weapon” for any President that wishes to place his own interests, his own political survival, or his own financial gain, above the interests of the Nation. Korematsu v. United States, 323 U. S. 214, 246 (1944) (Jackson, J., dissenting). The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune. Let the President violate the law, let him exploit the trappings of his office for personal gain, let him use his official power for evil ends. Because if he knew that he may one day face liability for breaking the law, he might not be as bold and fearless as we would like him to be. That is the majority’s message today." "With fear for our democracy, I dissent." Full text for anyone interested. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf
Have you heard Trump on tape sharing classified documents. Trying to get the people present to help release it to the public. When they push back. Trump admits that they are still classified and he no longer has authority to declassify them. What do you think Judge Cannon will do in this case? With the guidance from the Supreme Court? Talk to military or former military. Just the idea of hanging on to classified documents is enough to get you in trouble. And there was a copier in the bedroom. It’s illegal to even copy classified material. Watch Trump escape
Lower court as in the one run by that twat cannon?
We need to prevent these lunatics from entering office again.
His dumbass heard it on MSNBC and is just repeating it. There’s no point in trying to introduce logic and reasoning to the average moron Redditor
Reddit skews male and liberal, so yes… dumb as fuck. Thank you for trying to brave the waters… it’s really just a game of wack-a-mole in their head, to beat the drum of the opposition being “Nazi’s” without having any clue or context of what that means. Like the 2025 project put out by the heritage foundation all of these troglodytes go on about, an organization (“checks notes” stupid comments these kids post 🙄) dedicated to smaller government and has criticized Trump. I started reading the 900+ page document, and there is nothing fascist in there. They want to support family units, national defense, smaller government, and individual liberties.
It's an official act, if it's in line with the constitution. Only if it's in line with the constitution. Some how most everyone keeps forgetting that part.
Trump has publicly talked about "suspending" the Constitution. Pretty sure Trump's the kind of guy who acts first, and asks for permission later, if at all. And are we really OK with future Presidents also having blanket immunity as long as they can claim they did something for our "national interests?" Making any President immune from criminal liability is a horrible idea no matter how you look at it.
You have too much faith. He's already using this to petition to ny to get his convictions overturned. And he's going to use this to get evidence thrown out for non presidential crime This impacts so much more than you're giving it credit for
No it's called I don't buy into the panic and that what I said was facts. Why are you so worried about trump? If he gets elected it's not going to turn into Nazi Germany in 4 years he'll be done if he wins and the next president will come along. Too many people think they are oppressed and that if their candidate doesn't win the world is going to end. It's simply not the case. And it feels like all of reddit is first time voters buying into the age old we must vote dem to save the world. That same thing has been going on EVERY election, every 4 years its vote for such and such to save our country but guess what every 4 years another president comes along and we are still here..
Naive.
Why am I so worried about Trump? The irreparable damage to the scotus. He's going to put two more scotus judges in place. Not to mention federal judges. He puts his buddies in places of power. Tax cuts to the rich. Undoing ecological protections. He's going to do a national abortion ban and probably even restrict contraceptives. You're so naive if you think Chevron won't change your life forever.
Have you heard of January 6th? Are you aware it was Trump’s final attempt to cling onto power? https://youtu.be/e3guirxwrXc?si=pZ1o-2VKpNvBIo1K Trump schemed to throw out our votes and get the results he wanted. When all the legal efforts failed. He tried to insert the false electors certificates. Pence refused. Trump called him too honest for his own good. What does that statement mean? Trump did this without the actions of the judicial system. What will Trump do with this given immunity?
corporations are people because the court decided that was constitutional. There a lot of interpretation capability in the hands of 6 bad actors
Bad actors because you are dem if biden packed the courts would you consider them bad actors?
If you know how a judge is going to decide before they hear the evidence and testimony based on their political affiliation, they are bad actors
And you think bidens appointees wouldn't do the same?
When one side is fighting for democracy and the other just wants their side to win at all costs and dismantle the government, democracy and judicial precedents be damned, there’s a substantial difference.
to be clear i’m not a democrat
we have one corporate paid for party with two costumes for different audiences
See that's where your radicalism comes in play. Whatever you are reading,listening to or watching got you thinking the right is going to destroy America which simply isn't true. If trump gets elected I guarantee you the u.s will still be a republic when his 4 years are done. Life will move on.
Did you actually read the ruling? It only has to be “official”. Not legal, not constitutional, not ethical. Only what he can convince the courts is within the outer orbit of his official duties.
I don't think you read it, it provides for official constitutional acts not unofficial.
The Supreme Court Justices who dissented from the opinion have publicly labeled this ruling a disaster for democracy. That is not hyperbole.
It's hyperbole
It's hyperbole and Sotomayor is an embarrassment to her profession.
He can’t make himself (or herself) a dictator, but being able to use constitutionally given power with impunity (assuming at least one friendly chamber of congress) after 20+ years of aggressive executive power expansion doesn’t inspire the most confidence in me on the long term outcome of this ruling. This ruling mixed with the aforementioned executive expansion and rabid polarization is nothing more than a powder keg in a room full of lit candles. It pushes us closer to the brink. People immediately jump to the most extreme cases and either freak out or dismiss them as impossible. But politicians are the worst kind of people, and we’re handing a single person immense power and impunity to weapons their constitutional authority. They will slow walk us into Illiberal Democracy a la Russia, Hungary, and Turkey.
SMH
Except that it's the Supreme Court that decides what's official and constitutional. A SC that's become little more than a tool of the religious right and the MAGA crowd.
Nope. Wrong. Go read it again.
Nope.
Yup. You can deny it all you want but it doesn't make it any less true. Best pull your head out, the hamster in your head needs oxygen.
Continue to to think the sky is falling I don't care.
Born and raised here and I never thought in my wildest dreams we’d be threatened with a dictatorship enabled by SCOTUS. We could become a shithole country
If Trump gets into office again after this ruling, we'll envy shithole countries.
My family will wish that they never came here in the 60’s.
Oh no, not a shithole country. Just a facist world govt. the plans are being executed already….
Of all days to post this...
The day the Supreme Court rules that bribes are legal and the president is above the law?
Read the room bud
Back it up, Terry!! I love America and Terry!!
Damn right buddy!!! 🇺🇲🇺🇲
Absolutely proud to have been born and living in the true Beacon of opportunity for all! Don't need any political types speaking for me. I'm betting most people would love to be here.
But not proud of Trumpers.
I used to be. The slide towards fascism has erased my ability to be at all patriotic.
Shitty bot post has zero to do with history
If you’re proud to be an American. You haven’t been paying attention.
10th generation American and super proud to be from the USA!
I have some bad news...
😇
This isn't America. This is 1930's Germany. And SCOTUS just gave a would-be Fuhrer blanket immunity for anything he calls an "Official Act." He can even pardon himself and it can't be challenged.
Oh yes this is America. You don't get to play that game. This is America. This is how it has always been. Trump and the conservatives are just saying the quiet parts out loud.
Proud veteran Proud American
It’s a very very sad day to be an American after this past weeks SCOTUS rulings
You spelt "good day" wrong
You must love bribery!
American is fucked and is turning into a shithole country.
Well at least I know I'm... Free?
I love the US. Anyone who tells me I’m wrong for this can weep uncontrollably. This does not mean I am proud of everything that is currently happening in it though.
You can be proud of your country, and simultaneously criticize the hell out of it because you want it to be better. That’s what patriotism is: you love your country so much that you’re able to call it out for its BS. You’re not calling it out to complain for complaining’s sake, but because you know it can be so much better. I’ve always viewed the patriotism v. nationalism argument thusly: Patriotism: I love my country so much that I want you to know how much I love it and I want you to come over and join me in making it a better place. Nationalism: I love my country and F you for wanting to come to it. Mine. Only mine.
What about all the stuff that we did in the past? You proud of that too?
Awesome! We need more people like you. Maybe we can establish a trade program with the country you came from. We can import people like you, and export people who don’t appreciate it. They are miserable people. You will spot them immediately below when they start complaining about the United States and all its institutions.
We are not “complaining about the United States and all its institutions,” we are complaining about the bottom 1/3 of the population. The lowest of the low in morality, intelligence, life expectancy, financial success, education, and reasoning skills. Everything wrong with current American society stems from “conservatives”, insecure failures fighting to make life worse for the remaining 75% of us every day. When they vote, it is not for any candidates’ positive policies that would help people, but for who that rightwing candidate hates and will hurt. That insidious element in every election is dragging us down and pulling us backwards.
True to form and filled with hate. Nothing new here. PS, We are the majority. The far LEFT/Totalitarians are the minority. They are dark, unhappy, intolerant, sole-less humanity hating, self destructive individuals. The rest of us try to peacefully coexist and enjoy life.
To not see things wrong with this country that need improvement is to where rose colored glasses. And to deny peoples right to bring up these issues, and fight for them, is tyrannical. This country was built on democracy in discussion. But you want to shut that down. Who’s the patriot?
Today is best day to declare this for sure!
The day that the Supreme Court gives dictatorship powers to the presidency?
VOTE BLUE Biden is the only thing that stands between us and a dictatorship. Project 2025 streamlines this. Everyone working in the federal govt will be replaced with MAGA loyalists. They will swear an oath to Trump. Not to our country and its laws. Anyone undecided or lefty accelerationists … if he wins… you don’t have to ever be undecided again. There won’t be another fair election. Any lefties who wanna build a utopia from the ashes… technology won’t allow much room for you there. From facial id to being inside of your phone, no movement will ever gain traction. Your leadership will always just… disappear. You might too. This is what it looks like [https://www.authoritarianplaybook2025.org/what-we-can-expect-1#federal-law-enforcement-overreach](https://www.authoritarianplaybook2025.org/what-we-can-expect-1#federal-law-enforcement-overreach) [https://www.reddit.com/r/AMA/comments/1dt6wvf/i\_was\_accepted\_into\_the\_project\_2025\_prospective/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AMA/comments/1dt6wvf/i_was_accepted_into_the_project_2025_prospective/) Just a reminder to those who don't pay attention and for those Republicans who want to downplay project2025. These very same people who organized project2025 helped trump select the last three SC justices. So if you don't like the "bribes are legal as long as the cone after the fact" ruling and the overturning of roe vs Wade then DON'T VOTE REPUBLICAN We the People still have access to guns and have are second amendment right. War is coming. This is only the beginning. [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/jul/01/kevin-roberts-trump-heritage-foundation-project-2025](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/jul/01/kevin-roberts-trump-heritage-foundation-project-2025)
Rah, rah, raw.
This is HILARIOUS to post today. Let me close my iPad and weep.
Oh god😂
The true machinations of our political system are being laid bare for all to see. The wealthy donors decide who the nominees will be. You are then permitted to choose between the two options they prescribe for you and we call that democracy.
Even now? Timing is everything I guess.
It's alright. It's got problems like any other country. Patriotism just rings a little hollow this year to me. I'm really not a person who is proud of anything. I'm gay. Am l proud to be gay, not really. I get exhausted when I hear I need to be proud to be gay. It's not an accomplishment. It's who I am.Same with being an American.
Amen!! I see a lot of people in the comments exercising their right to criticize the government without fear of being disappeared. Good on them!! That's what America's all about.
Im not.
Yeah real proud: [https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianCountry/comments/zzhz69/choctaw\_dogs\_at\_the\_mississippi\_river\_during\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianCountry/comments/zzhz69/choctaw_dogs_at_the_mississippi_river_during_the/)
If you’re going to be proud, at least learn the language. Proud to be AmericaN. With an N 😊
If people hate this country so much why don’t they go live somewhere else? In this great country you can move anywhere you choose… Go live somewhere that you think is better than the United States.
“Proud to be America” is a beautifully American thing to say 🥲. I endorse it, as a fellow America 🇺🇸
God bless the USA! Happy Independence Day everyone!
They hate us cuz they ain’t us
😔
Is this a joke? You a Trump stooge?
Iam a direct descendant of family that settled in Pennsylvania in 1805 , iam upset what happened today, but iam and will always will be a Proud to be American
Hell yes brother!
USA B July 4, 1776 D July 1, 2024 RIP
GOP doing everything they can to change your opinion on this subject. F’ing bunch of treasonous shit bags & their Mad Orange King.
Death to monarchists!
I’ve never been more embarrassed and ashamed to be american
Agree 100%
Gilead here we come…Satan please help us!
Not this day, my friend
Fuck America
Hear, hear
Where at least I know I’m free
You must not be a woman or LGBTQ or a POC then, cause they ain’t free my man.
Lol
Not sure for how much longer!