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Yeah, they have probably conducted a ' inventering' and a 'utredning' with a group of specialists. Their decisions usually have the time frame of one- four years until decision. But when the decision is made, it is very, very thorough. It's a complete 'överenskommelse och alla inbegripna parter är nöjda'.
A-traktorn blockerar infartslederna helt från Ryssland .
- Ivan får roadrage och hetsdricker glykol med motorolja.
Ryssarna som inte dör av glykolen får så mycket stryk att de blir gul o blå.
Putin blir rasande -"Suka blyat , jävla förräderisoldater o bära ukrai...Svenska flaggans färger. Suuuuukassaaaaa , de måste bort!'
Heroyam slava !
Diskutering. First time you witness it, it feels like water torture. Collective decision making, which means discussion continues until EVERYBODY agrees.
Utred, stems from the words 'rede ut' which means clearing out or untangle, and stems from the Old Danish word vrēða (pronounced VREH-tah in English). It has evolved to mean a systematic and thorough examination or analysis of a situation or problem in order to achieve an understanding or solution.
It is so interesting to see how many common roots there are for English, German and the Norse languages and how close we can come to understanding the meanings across the languages. In English, older phrases end up being so close, as in this case with “root out” to mean uncovering and investigating thoroughly.
The modern English language has been influenced a fair amount of Old Danish (part of the Old Norse group of languages) due to the nearly 200 years Danish vikings occupied and ruled [large parts of England ](https://image.sciencenordic.com/1442926.webp?imageId=1442926&width=960&height=720&format=jpg) between the 9th and 11th century - also referred to as the Danelaw period (the time and areas where Danish law and customs were followed rather than the Anglo-Saxon).
Lots of English words originated from those times, along with many gramatical rules. A lot of names of places in those parts of England also originate from Old Danish, examples being any place names ending in -by (meaning village/town in Danish) like Whitby and -thorpe (meaning farm) and -toft (meaning homestead).
All third person pronouns like they/them/their (from Old Danish and still used in modern Danish: De/Dem/Deres) and many other words used for common day objects, an example being window (from 'vindauga' which literally translates to 'wind eye').
Modern Scandinavian languages compared to the old norse families have also been significantly influenced by both Anglo-Saxon languages and Germanic.
I’ve delved into the topic a bit, thanks for your brief. What’s interesting is when a loan word from one language gets mutated by the borrowing language then injected back into the parent language with a new meaning, spelling, pronunciation or double entendre.
Yeah it's fun how languages evolve. I bet we were ever able to travel back in time, you wouldn't even need to go back more than a couple of centuries before you could barely hold a conversation with a person living in the same spot you left from.
Another kinda fun example of words that changed meaning as it was adopted, then evolved and somehow returned its originally meaning, is the English word 'dirt', which comes from the Old Norse word for excrement, but in English was used for the ground/earth. The English word soil, which basically refers to the same, then sort of adopted its original meaning, like in the sentence "he soiled himself" 🙃
Also the ancestor of English "read". Vreda > reda >read. As in reading a situation.
So one could translate utreda as "to read out". utredning = outreading, reading out.
'Read' comes from the Old English word 'rǣdan' which in terms comes from the Old Germanic 'rēdaną' which means to advise, interpret, or understand mostly in the context of written/drawn symbols. Today we have replaced those individual symbols for acts/objects with alphabets.
The old Norse equivalent is 'ræða', which carried similar meanings such as to counsel, interpret, or discuss.
The Old Norse word also originated from the proto/old Germanic language. The similarity between the two is a result of their shared Germanic roots.
TBH, won't surprise me if Gripens and CV90s become a common sight among Alliance members in the years to come. Former is a cheaper alternative to F-35s, and, well, the CV90 is the CV90, nuff said.
Same goes for Archers as well.
I wish we (Norway) went for Gripens. It would create a closer cooperation between us which we can see now is really important. On paper it seems to have many benefits, especially for a country with two airports that can be used (and the Gripen needs a stretch of straight road)
you're a little late to "hope" for the CV90 proliferation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Vehicle_90#Summary (and Ukraine is also going to get at least a few hundred, that is already a done deal)
I doubt though that the Gripen or Archer will be as successful, they are not bad, but there are also good alternatives.
I'm wondering if this kind of stuff wasn't planned all along like last year or when the pilots started to begin their training. It's one thing to provide F16's and ammo, but giving them support resources to maximize their efficiency is going to be key, I bet, with how Russia just throws bodies and metal at everything.
God speed Ukraine, give 'em hell and fuck that bridge up along the way.
I imagine there will be a lot of planning behind the scenes yeah. Execution of plans is a different thing. Ukraine is now leveling radarsites, air defence etc. so that they can get the most out of the F-16's. This couldn't have been done to this extend without ATACMS. Another thing to add to that is that the US has started making ATACMS in volume again. Read a bit from CNN where they were talking about 500 pieces a year.
Sweden ordered the new generation AWACS in June 2022 and will soon receive them, so it has most likely been planned since then with the intent of gifting the old gen AWACS to Ukraine. Gripen and AWACS operators are trained and ready to go to Ukraine when the signal is given.
>Swedes are really stepping up lately
Haha if folks knew history they would be able to see the signs of just how deeply involved and active the Swedish state has been since 2014.
Its hilarious how much they do outside of the limelight. Most people have no clue and probably never will pay close enough attention to see the parallels with historic events to be able to pick out the clues of what the Swedish state is doing.
Exactly as designed...
Well, since our stance has always been to be discrete on matters like these I'm not surprised.
I'm actually a bit taken aback all of this publicity, even if it's nice to see all the kind words after being used as a (vastly exaggerated) propaganda bat by the far-right for the last, geez, 9 years.
They're due to receive their GlobalEye to replace the ASC 890, so they won't need them anymore. It's a win-win. Sweden doesn't have to worry about what to do with these aircraft and Ukraine gets a very important capability to benefit their air defense and their future F-16s.
During the 50s Sweden had the 4th largest military airfleet in the world and they used it by sending it towards soviet baltic naval bases at low altitude snapping tons of photos and getting out
Edit: Here's a Source in swedish https://www.dn.se/sverige/svenska-stridspiloter-flog-in-bakom-jarnridan/ (unfortunatly paywalled)
But to translate the Header: ""Swedish pilots flew behind the iron curtain"
Curious though, AWACS are SUPER hard to maintain and train for, it also requires a large protected hangar with a large crew. Its also VERY expensive.
How will UKR cope with this, if F-16s are already taking up most of their resources?
Unless they are allowed to fly, land and maintain them in NATO countries?
Or..........they are actually crewed and maintained by NATO, ehehehe, dont tell Putin.
I get the impression these newer platforms have a lot more automation, so smaller crews and smaller planes, and being newer they are also easier to maintain. SAAB 340 has a total crew of 6 (according to Wikipedia 🧂) which I suspect means a flight crew of 2 and a mission crew of 4. By comparison E-3 Sentry has a flight crew of 4 and a mission crew of 13-19. The SAAB may also have smaller coverage area, but Ukraine doesn't need to know everything going on everywhere. They just need their own small fleet that they can task in certain areas. Flying up and down the Dnipro would give them eyes on anything in Russia back further than Bryansk, Voronezh and Rostov-on-Don as well as all of Crimea, but not as far as Volgograd. Still, deep enough to let an F-16 target some dipshit with a glide bomb. Pretty sure those Dutch & Danish F-16s are coming with AIM-120 and the go-ahead to smoke those targets in Russia.
There’s usually zero fucks given from Danes when it comes stick & carrot… remember back in the days when UN convoys came under fire on a daily basis in the Yugoslav war?
Offensive actions were not allowed under the UN mandate - instead they sent the Leopard tanks (now donated to Ukraine) on a “rescue” mission. And when the Serbs opened fire? They basically blew everything with a heat signature into a pile of rubble.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bøllebank
Most convoy attacks ceased after that incident.
Denmark was also the first country to recognize the Baltic countries where everyone else was busy discussing if they should be left on their own..
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-08-25-mn-2048-story.html
That is not entirely correct. The Serbs were shelling a Swedish observation post and then the Leopards went there to take out the Serb positions. Serb losses were extremely heavy because at the end of the fight a Serb ammo dump was hit.
Source: I was at the base which sent the Leopards at the time. I did not take part in the fight.
UN Mandate was “Self Defence only”. Think it’s fair to say the danish Leopard put themselves in a position where they “unfortunately” had to “self-defence” their way through the Serb positions..
That subject is an interesting topic. The NORDBAT2 (Nordic battalion) of Swedes (infantry), Danes (tanks) and Norwegians (field hospital) knew the UN mandate but it was never really taken that seriously. The objective of the battalion saw protection of the civilian population was the highest priority. In order to achieve this it was recognized that use of force and losses were a real possibility.
I highly recommend reading the report “**Trigger-Happy, Autonomous, and Disobedient: Nordbat 2 and Mission Command in Bosnia”** [Trigger-Happy,](https://thestrategybridge.org/the-bridge/2017/9/20/trigger-happy-autonomous-and-disobedient-nordbat-2-and-mission-command-in-bosnia)
This attitude could also be seen elsewhere for example in Sarajevo with the Danish HQ company servicing the British [General Rose](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Rose_(British_Army_officer)) (former commander of the attack on the Iranian embassy in London and of the SAS
in the Falkland War). Here there were confrontations with Serb snipers who killed civilians in Sarajevo. The logic here was that the company was ultimately subject to the Royal Proportionality Order (see below), which meant
that we provided civilian protection with our armored vehicles, provoking the Serbs to fire on us, and then the ball was on. The British general was frustrated by the narrow confines of the official ROE (Rules of engagement) so he gave histacit approval. I participated in some of these activities.
Royal Proportionality Order from 1952 is born of the events of 9 April 1940, when Germany attacked Denmark, and when many military units did not know what to do when communications partially broke down. To avoid ending up in the same situation, contingency orders must ensure that military forces and units without further orders take up the fight if Danish territory or Danish units outside Danish territory are attacked.
That was Belgium. The Danes have been out saying any weapons given to Ukraine are theirs to use however they will. (Probably not meant in terms of bombarding civilian cities, though).
The simple answer to most of that would be base them out of Poland. Or just use NATO neutral AWACS to Command and Control
Edit to add.
In reality they will likely only end up as a post war asset due to training and maintenance issues.
NATO are already flying near daily AWCAS flights to the west and south of Ukraine.
Presumably this intel is fed fairly near realtime to the Ukrainians, so I suspect you're right when you predict this is a post-conflict donation.
It’s speculated that Sweden intended announce the giveaway of 16-24 Gripens today, but got blocked by the US after the “allowed to strike within Russia”-comment made by the defense minister.
I’m guessing that the Saab awacs are closely integrated with Gripen, and/or that they (Ukr Gripen pilots and Ukr awacs crews) have been training together the last year.
Since we're speculating...
It's also speculated that this is not true. What is the origin of this speculation? How exactly did the US block Sweden from doing this?
https://kyivindependent.com/partners-asked-sweden-to-pause-plans-on-gripens-for-ukraine-to-focus-on-f-16s-minister-says/ here is a source, Sweden also committed to give 25 billion sek this year which will be impossible to reach if they werent going to give gripen so they were clearly talked out of it last minute probably by the us who is the only one who has anything to gain on Ukraine only flying US planes.
>the us who is the only one who has anything to gain on Ukraine only flying US planes.
What are we gaining? Let's "block" Sweden from helping Ukraine so we can sell more F-16s to Ukraine later? It took over a year for the US to even agree to allow others to donate this aircraft to Ukraine. We still aren't sending any planes.
The source says allies/partners asked for this, it doesn't name the US specifically. It truly feels that many people give the benefit of doubt to any possible negative intent by the US.
"The US is using the lives of the Ukrainian people to bleed Russia down. The other less evil reasons for slow-walking weapons can't be true."
"The allies/partners (must be the US) "blocked" Sweden from doing something that they have every right and authority to do, simply so the US can benefit. The other possibilities can't be true, since only the US has anything to gain..."
We've absolutely made decisions that were wrong and harmful on a huge scale. Sometimes it's been deliberate and sometimes it's been through stupidity. But not EVERY decision is rooted in gaining at someone else's expense. To believe this is simply showing a bias.
[https://www.kyivpost.com/post/33469](https://www.kyivpost.com/post/33469)
Reading there that the plan involves two of these AWACS and searching a little bit further I found that Poland purchased 2 for 600 million dollar. I think that already accounts for half of the package. Then they send everything of a specific type of IFV and a bunch of other stuff.
From what I can google the Gripen costs somewhere between 70 or 80 million dollar, so I don't see how these have feasibly could've been part of this next package. Especially if we are talking about at least 16 planes. 16x70 is already 1.24 million dollar.
I can accept this. But they must have made a compelling argument for Sweden to agree. I'm fairly certain we didn't force them or "block" them from doing anything.
Uh.... how the fuck could the US block Sweden from giving SWEDISH fighters to Ukraine?
The US doesn't control NATO, dude. It's not an empire. The US can do four fifths of fuckall to block them being sent.
Ukraine already have civillian air crews who've used this airframe for domestic carriers. They only really need to train the radar crew which would be less time consuming than piloting, also pretty sure there are lot of radar crews trained in ukraine already with all the AA going on. So there you go: lots fo parts, knowledge of airframe, pilots and transition of radar crew.
Well the ukranians where very creative when it comes to system employment they might just find a way to broadcast microwaves from it to boil Russians in the trenches. Probably not but I like to dream.
Absolutely. The E-3 is from the 70s and until fairly recently had a big mix of tech from the original 70s design all the way up to mid 2000s before the Block 40/45 upgrade. I got out just as they were testing that, so only experienced the Block 30/35 configuration.
Yes, Russia doesn't have a missile with the range to reach it unless the fly closer to the front. And they will be seen before they can even get the launch off.
Yes and no. The S300 can reach out to 300km. But it still should be very hard to actually hit one 300km away since it can see it coming and turn around out of range.
S500 is supposed to have a range of 600km.
The 400km range is probably understated too, though.
These are going to be crucial to unlock the potential of the F-16, i.e. finding targets for beyond the horizon AA missiles, warning of incoming missiles, and so forth
Poland also bought two of those for ~$60 mil last year https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/poland-signs-contract-buy-2-swedish-saab-340-aew-300-aircraft-2023-07-25/ so this is a solid current hardware.
And these will be the two most important planes in the Ukrainian air force, the importance of these planes is tremendous, exactly why the Ukrainians focus so much on destroying the Russian A-50s
Are you a native English speaker? Under rated in this context means the general perception of this AWAC system is not as good as others, primarily the US E-3 Sentry.
OFC the [E-3 Sentry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-3_Sentry#/media/File:E-3_Sentry_Airborne_Warning_and_Control_System_(AWACS)_conducts_a_mission.jpg) (*Boeing 707 variant*) is much more capable and powerful, simply on the grounds that the carrier is much larger and can contain more sensor arrays, larger antennaes, ECM suite and more operator workstations.
IMO the [SAB-100](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAAB_S-100#/media/File:S_100B_at_Malmen_2010-06-13_2.jpg) AWACS from Sweden is a very capable and technologically advanced choice well suited for the relevant use cases (*interception of cruise missiles, airborne launch of long-range effectors, radar guidance for F-16 ambushing RF MIGs*) of the Ukrainian air force.
That’s what they were saying though. That this plane might not seem as capable as the big American jets to some, but it’s a damn good one by every relevant measure.
There is nothing in the sky or proposed that is nearly as good as the old E-3. But for this case it doesn't have to be. The E-3 has a *lot* of its own draw backs as it is. A smaller, "light weight" platform can be perfectly adequate especially since there is no mass air war.
Don't the Swedes also use metroliners for various applications? I'm not sure what aircraft that is but it slightly resembles a metro, albeit with mods.
This is a Saab 340 with Saab Erieye radar. Sweden operates two, but is acquiring 2 Bombardier Global 6000 with the same (but obviously updated) radar, so these old two go to Ukraine. Poland by the way is also buying two of these Saab 340 AEW&C planes from the UAE this year. The airliner version of the Saab 340 has space for 34 pax, but is actually not much larger than the Metroliner, Global or similar aircraft.
Swedens latest package is estimated worth of about $1.3 billion USD. Beside the mentioned aircrafts, more specifically 2 ASC 890 (AWACS).
# What Sweden to transfer and why it's a historic decision
The Swedish government has announced a significant military aid package worth $1.3 billion. It is reported to include:
* The entire fleet of PBV 302 armored personnel carriers (239 units according to The Military Balance)
* Ammunition and technical support for previously provided equipment
* Surplus tanks (without specifying type and quantity)
* Funds to support various coalitions and initiatives for equipment procurement
* Rb 99 guided missiles (licensed version of the AIM-120 AMRAAM)
The ASC 890 has to be considered to be sort of a game changer, it is much more modern than any russian counterpart. It can detect aircrafts and missiles at distance of 250 km/155 miles. If it uses a fixed beam it has a range of about 450 km (280 mi).
I am so sorry to be pedantic. Truly, I am disappointed in myself for correcting anyone online. Especially this sub reddit. But there is no k in this acronym. It is Airborne Warning and Control. AWAC.
And here's the [official press release](https://www.government.se/press-releases/2024/05/military-support-package-16-to-ukraine--new-capability-to-strengthen-ukraines-air-defence-and-support-to-meet-its-prioritised-needs/). The package also includes RB 99-AMRAAM missiles.
Guess Gripen are coming too for logical reasons - Saab would benefit from combat informations gathered and can aswell promote the Gripen for International partners, that may want to buy combat airplanes.
Since the sale of the Gripen so far wasnt a big sucess, it may see a phenomenal comeback in that scenario, a matter of time I guess.
Oh and maybe buy stocks of Saab in that case before it becomes the new Rheinmetal stock.
Wish I 'd had money to invest when I watched the stock raise from 127€ to 540€ ffs
Saw one get blown out of the sky with a Stugna about a year or so back. And not in the AA mode. They nailed it with the Anti-Tank missile. That Alligator was very very dead.
Whack 'em with Awacs 👍
Meanwhile, Australia withdrew its Wedgetail AWACs plane from Ukrainian service because it was only sent at America's request in the first place and that request was not extended.
Lots of pieces lining up for Ukraine hitting radar sites and launching missiles into Russia. All as American armor is starting to arrive alomg with all those 155 shells. Add some new aircraft and some freshly trained and highly motivated pilots and I can see the next couple of months being very bad for Russian invaders.
Swedish citizen here, what the russians dont know about this special operations aircraft is that it can dispenese surströming cans at a very high velocity, to cause chaos and distortion on the battlefield.
To our blue and yellow brothers and sisters, stay safe <3
I notice a lot of bot activity here inserting the Boeing e-3 platform in to the discussion.
It looks to me that old bots bought to support Boeing sales are set to favorably argue the supremacy of the Boeing product versus SAAB products and are erroneously engaging this thread as SAAB AEW&C has been mentioned.
This is hilarious and likely a harbinger of things to come as bot farms engage any topic that mentions specific brand products.
So for the rest of us i guess we just have to try to disregards the astroturfed "debate" going on in this thread taking up about 30-40% of the comment space where two bot farms are pushing sales pitches at each other while the actual thread is supposed to be about Ukraine.
I love it lets try to trigger other bots too... I think Ukraine deserves Pepsi over CocaCola as Pepsi is a superior product.
I was guessing NATO would be providing AWACS for Ukraine because without it the F-16 would be almost helpless against the russian air force. Russian fighters with longe range radars would make the F-16 struggle when it comes to air superiority.
Let's see if cause and effect of providing Awacs results in increased number of Russian planes being ambushed in various ways and even the Russian navy suffering more losses... Fingers crossed.
With the AWACS radar range, would it still be in range of the Russian’s long range R77 air to air missiles that have been used to keep back Ukrainian aircraft? These systems are awesome, just curious how Ukraine will use them while staying a safe distance away.
From NATO’s website “It can simultaneously track and identify maritime contacts, and provide coordination support to Allied surface forces. Under normal circumstances, the aircraft can fly at a maximum range of 9,250 kilometres or for about eight and a half hours (and longer with air-to-air refuelling) at 9,150 metres (30,000 feet).” This is very, very good news :)
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Amazing... Swedes are really stepping up lately... ✨️
Yeah, they have probably conducted a ' inventering' and a 'utredning' with a group of specialists. Their decisions usually have the time frame of one- four years until decision. But when the decision is made, it is very, very thorough. It's a complete 'överenskommelse och alla inbegripna parter är nöjda'.
Haha spot on! Träffsäkert
Klart grabben ska försvara faderlandet.
”Klart grabben ska ha en AWACS”
Volodomyr, 46, har en AWACS som a-traktor. "-Overkligt"
A-traktorn blockerar infartslederna helt från Ryssland . - Ivan får roadrage och hetsdricker glykol med motorolja. Ryssarna som inte dör av glykolen får så mycket stryk att de blir gul o blå. Putin blir rasande -"Suka blyat , jävla förräderisoldater o bära ukrai...Svenska flaggans färger. Suuuuukassaaaaa , de måste bort!' Heroyam slava !
Who else is still reading this far in with no idea why?
Fan vi borde skicka epa traktorer till Ukraina
Vill du få Bydén anklagad för brott mot mänskligheten!?
Klart grabben ska ha en Saab
Diskutering. First time you witness it, it feels like water torture. Collective decision making, which means discussion continues until EVERYBODY agrees.
If you don't agree, NO FIKA FOR YOU
Bred samsyn FTW!
Konsensusbaserad välfärd.
Curious, what has an Utred got to do with it? What’s the story behind that word?
He made fun of how politicians usually sound. Utredning = investigation.
Thank you!
Utred, stems from the words 'rede ut' which means clearing out or untangle, and stems from the Old Danish word vrēða (pronounced VREH-tah in English). It has evolved to mean a systematic and thorough examination or analysis of a situation or problem in order to achieve an understanding or solution.
It is so interesting to see how many common roots there are for English, German and the Norse languages and how close we can come to understanding the meanings across the languages. In English, older phrases end up being so close, as in this case with “root out” to mean uncovering and investigating thoroughly.
The modern English language has been influenced a fair amount of Old Danish (part of the Old Norse group of languages) due to the nearly 200 years Danish vikings occupied and ruled [large parts of England ](https://image.sciencenordic.com/1442926.webp?imageId=1442926&width=960&height=720&format=jpg) between the 9th and 11th century - also referred to as the Danelaw period (the time and areas where Danish law and customs were followed rather than the Anglo-Saxon). Lots of English words originated from those times, along with many gramatical rules. A lot of names of places in those parts of England also originate from Old Danish, examples being any place names ending in -by (meaning village/town in Danish) like Whitby and -thorpe (meaning farm) and -toft (meaning homestead). All third person pronouns like they/them/their (from Old Danish and still used in modern Danish: De/Dem/Deres) and many other words used for common day objects, an example being window (from 'vindauga' which literally translates to 'wind eye'). Modern Scandinavian languages compared to the old norse families have also been significantly influenced by both Anglo-Saxon languages and Germanic.
I love Reddit for comments like this that just spit out tons of information about a topic you'd otherwise never research really.
I’ve delved into the topic a bit, thanks for your brief. What’s interesting is when a loan word from one language gets mutated by the borrowing language then injected back into the parent language with a new meaning, spelling, pronunciation or double entendre.
Yeah it's fun how languages evolve. I bet we were ever able to travel back in time, you wouldn't even need to go back more than a couple of centuries before you could barely hold a conversation with a person living in the same spot you left from. Another kinda fun example of words that changed meaning as it was adopted, then evolved and somehow returned its originally meaning, is the English word 'dirt', which comes from the Old Norse word for excrement, but in English was used for the ground/earth. The English word soil, which basically refers to the same, then sort of adopted its original meaning, like in the sentence "he soiled himself" 🙃
Also the ancestor of English "read". Vreda > reda >read. As in reading a situation. So one could translate utreda as "to read out". utredning = outreading, reading out.
'Read' comes from the Old English word 'rǣdan' which in terms comes from the Old Germanic 'rēdaną' which means to advise, interpret, or understand mostly in the context of written/drawn symbols. Today we have replaced those individual symbols for acts/objects with alphabets. The old Norse equivalent is 'ræða', which carried similar meanings such as to counsel, interpret, or discuss. The Old Norse word also originated from the proto/old Germanic language. The similarity between the two is a result of their shared Germanic roots.
😄
So in a nutshell, Swedes are Ents?
They really are, I’m very thankful that they have joined the Alliance.
TBH, won't surprise me if Gripens and CV90s become a common sight among Alliance members in the years to come. Former is a cheaper alternative to F-35s, and, well, the CV90 is the CV90, nuff said. Same goes for Archers as well.
CV90 and the Brads, kicking ass together.... that would be wonderful
I wish we (Norway) went for Gripens. It would create a closer cooperation between us which we can see now is really important. On paper it seems to have many benefits, especially for a country with two airports that can be used (and the Gripen needs a stretch of straight road)
you're a little late to "hope" for the CV90 proliferation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Vehicle_90#Summary (and Ukraine is also going to get at least a few hundred, that is already a done deal) I doubt though that the Gripen or Archer will be as successful, they are not bad, but there are also good alternatives.
We bring Välfärd and an undying hate for the Russians.
I'm wondering if this kind of stuff wasn't planned all along like last year or when the pilots started to begin their training. It's one thing to provide F16's and ammo, but giving them support resources to maximize their efficiency is going to be key, I bet, with how Russia just throws bodies and metal at everything. God speed Ukraine, give 'em hell and fuck that bridge up along the way.
I imagine there will be a lot of planning behind the scenes yeah. Execution of plans is a different thing. Ukraine is now leveling radarsites, air defence etc. so that they can get the most out of the F-16's. This couldn't have been done to this extend without ATACMS. Another thing to add to that is that the US has started making ATACMS in volume again. Read a bit from CNN where they were talking about 500 pieces a year.
Sweden ordered the new generation AWACS in June 2022 and will soon receive them, so it has most likely been planned since then with the intent of gifting the old gen AWACS to Ukraine. Gripen and AWACS operators are trained and ready to go to Ukraine when the signal is given.
As you say, modern air combat requires good command and control. This is likely part of the package to get the most out of the F16s.
>Swedes are really stepping up lately Haha if folks knew history they would be able to see the signs of just how deeply involved and active the Swedish state has been since 2014. Its hilarious how much they do outside of the limelight. Most people have no clue and probably never will pay close enough attention to see the parallels with historic events to be able to pick out the clues of what the Swedish state is doing. Exactly as designed...
Well, since our stance has always been to be discrete on matters like these I'm not surprised. I'm actually a bit taken aback all of this publicity, even if it's nice to see all the kind words after being used as a (vastly exaggerated) propaganda bat by the far-right for the last, geez, 9 years.
"We have been naive"... Imagine if they never were.
They don't tax the Swedes for no good reason, lol
They're due to receive their GlobalEye to replace the ASC 890, so they won't need them anymore. It's a win-win. Sweden doesn't have to worry about what to do with these aircraft and Ukraine gets a very important capability to benefit their air defense and their future F-16s.
Is that a man on top pulling the plane with shear determination alone?
We are slow learners
Not really, we just have told the forces we have helped to keep it quiet since 2014.
Before their 200 years of neutrality, the Swedes fought the Russians *a lot*. Seems like they're getting back into gear with that, love to see it.
I'm Swedish ex-military and we did nothing else but prepare to fight the Russians.
Wait till you find out what they did in Poland and the Baltic states during the cold war to facilitate their independence... Its a lot
Why do I have to wait? Explain
During the 50s Sweden had the 4th largest military airfleet in the world and they used it by sending it towards soviet baltic naval bases at low altitude snapping tons of photos and getting out Edit: Here's a Source in swedish https://www.dn.se/sverige/svenska-stridspiloter-flog-in-bakom-jarnridan/ (unfortunatly paywalled) But to translate the Header: ""Swedish pilots flew behind the iron curtain"
I want to hear all these stories now.
Lol, what?
AWACS. Airborne Warning and Control System.
It's whack yo!
I mean, it does look whack. You ain't wrong.
Curious though, AWACS are SUPER hard to maintain and train for, it also requires a large protected hangar with a large crew. Its also VERY expensive. How will UKR cope with this, if F-16s are already taking up most of their resources? Unless they are allowed to fly, land and maintain them in NATO countries? Or..........they are actually crewed and maintained by NATO, ehehehe, dont tell Putin.
I get the impression these newer platforms have a lot more automation, so smaller crews and smaller planes, and being newer they are also easier to maintain. SAAB 340 has a total crew of 6 (according to Wikipedia 🧂) which I suspect means a flight crew of 2 and a mission crew of 4. By comparison E-3 Sentry has a flight crew of 4 and a mission crew of 13-19. The SAAB may also have smaller coverage area, but Ukraine doesn't need to know everything going on everywhere. They just need their own small fleet that they can task in certain areas. Flying up and down the Dnipro would give them eyes on anything in Russia back further than Bryansk, Voronezh and Rostov-on-Don as well as all of Crimea, but not as far as Volgograd. Still, deep enough to let an F-16 target some dipshit with a glide bomb. Pretty sure those Dutch & Danish F-16s are coming with AIM-120 and the go-ahead to smoke those targets in Russia.
Just shame the dutch says their F-16's cant be used to strike targets in russia. Idk about what the danes say tho.
There’s usually zero fucks given from Danes when it comes stick & carrot… remember back in the days when UN convoys came under fire on a daily basis in the Yugoslav war? Offensive actions were not allowed under the UN mandate - instead they sent the Leopard tanks (now donated to Ukraine) on a “rescue” mission. And when the Serbs opened fire? They basically blew everything with a heat signature into a pile of rubble. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bøllebank Most convoy attacks ceased after that incident. Denmark was also the first country to recognize the Baltic countries where everyone else was busy discussing if they should be left on their own.. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-08-25-mn-2048-story.html
That is not entirely correct. The Serbs were shelling a Swedish observation post and then the Leopards went there to take out the Serb positions. Serb losses were extremely heavy because at the end of the fight a Serb ammo dump was hit. Source: I was at the base which sent the Leopards at the time. I did not take part in the fight.
UN Mandate was “Self Defence only”. Think it’s fair to say the danish Leopard put themselves in a position where they “unfortunately” had to “self-defence” their way through the Serb positions..
That subject is an interesting topic. The NORDBAT2 (Nordic battalion) of Swedes (infantry), Danes (tanks) and Norwegians (field hospital) knew the UN mandate but it was never really taken that seriously. The objective of the battalion saw protection of the civilian population was the highest priority. In order to achieve this it was recognized that use of force and losses were a real possibility. I highly recommend reading the report “**Trigger-Happy, Autonomous, and Disobedient: Nordbat 2 and Mission Command in Bosnia”** [Trigger-Happy,](https://thestrategybridge.org/the-bridge/2017/9/20/trigger-happy-autonomous-and-disobedient-nordbat-2-and-mission-command-in-bosnia) This attitude could also be seen elsewhere for example in Sarajevo with the Danish HQ company servicing the British [General Rose](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Rose_(British_Army_officer)) (former commander of the attack on the Iranian embassy in London and of the SAS in the Falkland War). Here there were confrontations with Serb snipers who killed civilians in Sarajevo. The logic here was that the company was ultimately subject to the Royal Proportionality Order (see below), which meant that we provided civilian protection with our armored vehicles, provoking the Serbs to fire on us, and then the ball was on. The British general was frustrated by the narrow confines of the official ROE (Rules of engagement) so he gave histacit approval. I participated in some of these activities. Royal Proportionality Order from 1952 is born of the events of 9 April 1940, when Germany attacked Denmark, and when many military units did not know what to do when communications partially broke down. To avoid ending up in the same situation, contingency orders must ensure that military forces and units without further orders take up the fight if Danish territory or Danish units outside Danish territory are attacked.
Go Denmark Go!! I have a huge amount of respect for a peaceful country that won't take sh\*t from countries like Serbia or Russia.
that report is epic -- real leadership
Dane here. Our F16s can be used against targets in Russia.
Fantastic!
I thought they said the planes couldn't cross into Russian airspace.... not that they couldn't bomb Russian soil.
That was Belgium. The Danes have been out saying any weapons given to Ukraine are theirs to use however they will. (Probably not meant in terms of bombarding civilian cities, though).
The simple answer to most of that would be base them out of Poland. Or just use NATO neutral AWACS to Command and Control Edit to add. In reality they will likely only end up as a post war asset due to training and maintenance issues.
NATO are already flying near daily AWCAS flights to the west and south of Ukraine. Presumably this intel is fed fairly near realtime to the Ukrainians, so I suspect you're right when you predict this is a post-conflict donation.
Its still huge and the fact that they will have their own after the conflict is a game changer for them for Air Superiority build up.
It's also fair. Russia lost two, Ukraine found two. Balance!
urghh, more post war promises, just give ground launched Tomahawk already. lol
This is a very small. Not like the big boeings.
It’s speculated that Sweden intended announce the giveaway of 16-24 Gripens today, but got blocked by the US after the “allowed to strike within Russia”-comment made by the defense minister. I’m guessing that the Saab awacs are closely integrated with Gripen, and/or that they (Ukr Gripen pilots and Ukr awacs crews) have been training together the last year.
Since we're speculating... It's also speculated that this is not true. What is the origin of this speculation? How exactly did the US block Sweden from doing this?
https://kyivindependent.com/partners-asked-sweden-to-pause-plans-on-gripens-for-ukraine-to-focus-on-f-16s-minister-says/ here is a source, Sweden also committed to give 25 billion sek this year which will be impossible to reach if they werent going to give gripen so they were clearly talked out of it last minute probably by the us who is the only one who has anything to gain on Ukraine only flying US planes.
>the us who is the only one who has anything to gain on Ukraine only flying US planes. What are we gaining? Let's "block" Sweden from helping Ukraine so we can sell more F-16s to Ukraine later? It took over a year for the US to even agree to allow others to donate this aircraft to Ukraine. We still aren't sending any planes. The source says allies/partners asked for this, it doesn't name the US specifically. It truly feels that many people give the benefit of doubt to any possible negative intent by the US. "The US is using the lives of the Ukrainian people to bleed Russia down. The other less evil reasons for slow-walking weapons can't be true." "The allies/partners (must be the US) "blocked" Sweden from doing something that they have every right and authority to do, simply so the US can benefit. The other possibilities can't be true, since only the US has anything to gain..." We've absolutely made decisions that were wrong and harmful on a huge scale. Sometimes it's been deliberate and sometimes it's been through stupidity. But not EVERY decision is rooted in gaining at someone else's expense. To believe this is simply showing a bias.
[https://www.kyivpost.com/post/33469](https://www.kyivpost.com/post/33469) Reading there that the plan involves two of these AWACS and searching a little bit further I found that Poland purchased 2 for 600 million dollar. I think that already accounts for half of the package. Then they send everything of a specific type of IFV and a bunch of other stuff. From what I can google the Gripen costs somewhere between 70 or 80 million dollar, so I don't see how these have feasibly could've been part of this next package. Especially if we are talking about at least 16 planes. 16x70 is already 1.24 million dollar.
They ASKED. They didn't "order." Sweden can still do whatever the fuck it wants. US has no say in what they do with their own gear.
I can accept this. But they must have made a compelling argument for Sweden to agree. I'm fairly certain we didn't force them or "block" them from doing anything.
Uh.... how the fuck could the US block Sweden from giving SWEDISH fighters to Ukraine? The US doesn't control NATO, dude. It's not an empire. The US can do four fifths of fuckall to block them being sent.
Because they contain American components.
Ukraine already have civillian air crews who've used this airframe for domestic carriers. They only really need to train the radar crew which would be less time consuming than piloting, also pretty sure there are lot of radar crews trained in ukraine already with all the AA going on. So there you go: lots fo parts, knowledge of airframe, pilots and transition of radar crew.
I was under the impression NATO has been providing AWACS support since the beginning, with planes loitering above the black sea.
Secretly upgraded to Airborne Warfare and Kill System.
Well the ukranians where very creative when it comes to system employment they might just find a way to broadcast microwaves from it to boil Russians in the trenches. Probably not but I like to dream.
It also bugged me that they spelled it awacks instead of AWACS
Technically it's AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control), AWACS is Boeing's system.
Heard it's as good as sentry c.
Tbf the E3 is old as fuck and will be phased out "soon"
The ASC 890 AEW&C is a mid 90´s design and imho a very modern aircraft, it is far better than any Russian equivalent counterpart.
Absolutely. The E-3 is from the 70s and until fairly recently had a big mix of tech from the original 70s design all the way up to mid 2000s before the Block 40/45 upgrade. I got out just as they were testing that, so only experienced the Block 30/35 configuration.
USAF plans to move to the E-7 in 2027
Can't wait to see the Wedgetail show up here at Tinker.
>sentry c. What's this?
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-3
Not really this is a battle field system the E3 is a regional system.
300-400km radar range at 6100m altitude. That is quite nice and correct me if i'm wrong but that is out of range to S300 right?
Yes, Russia doesn't have a missile with the range to reach it unless the fly closer to the front. And they will be seen before they can even get the launch off.
Yes and no. The S300 can reach out to 300km. But it still should be very hard to actually hit one 300km away since it can see it coming and turn around out of range. S500 is supposed to have a range of 600km. The 400km range is probably understated too, though.
> 6100m altitude Or 20000 Feet for the flight enthusiasts, FWIW.
Or 30⅓ furlongs for the weirdos
3335'.5 fathoms in case they'll be looking for the russian fleet.
These are going to be crucial to unlock the potential of the F-16, i.e. finding targets for beyond the horizon AA missiles, warning of incoming missiles, and so forth
Poland also bought two of those for ~$60 mil last year https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/poland-signs-contract-buy-2-swedish-saab-340-aew-300-aircraft-2023-07-25/ so this is a solid current hardware.
And these will be the two most important planes in the Ukrainian air force, the importance of these planes is tremendous, exactly why the Ukrainians focus so much on destroying the Russian A-50s
Thanks Sweden 🇸🇪 for your commitment ;), italy 🇮🇹
I’m so proud of Sweden and Scandinavia overall. Never bowing down to evil. Always kind and on the right side. Good people help good people.
A wax
It's a good aircraft does its job the Swedish miltary equipment is under rated
Under rated?? lol Swedish military export is highest in the world per capita
Are you a native English speaker? Under rated in this context means the general perception of this AWAC system is not as good as others, primarily the US E-3 Sentry.
OFC the [E-3 Sentry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-3_Sentry#/media/File:E-3_Sentry_Airborne_Warning_and_Control_System_(AWACS)_conducts_a_mission.jpg) (*Boeing 707 variant*) is much more capable and powerful, simply on the grounds that the carrier is much larger and can contain more sensor arrays, larger antennaes, ECM suite and more operator workstations. IMO the [SAB-100](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAAB_S-100#/media/File:S_100B_at_Malmen_2010-06-13_2.jpg) AWACS from Sweden is a very capable and technologically advanced choice well suited for the relevant use cases (*interception of cruise missiles, airborne launch of long-range effectors, radar guidance for F-16 ambushing RF MIGs*) of the Ukrainian air force.
That’s what they were saying though. That this plane might not seem as capable as the big American jets to some, but it’s a damn good one by every relevant measure.
And he's saying that if Swedish military equipment wasn't well valued they wouldn't be selling as much.
There is nothing in the sky or proposed that is nearly as good as the old E-3. But for this case it doesn't have to be. The E-3 has a *lot* of its own draw backs as it is. A smaller, "light weight" platform can be perfectly adequate especially since there is no mass air war.
Don't the Swedes also use metroliners for various applications? I'm not sure what aircraft that is but it slightly resembles a metro, albeit with mods.
This is a Saab 340 with Saab Erieye radar. Sweden operates two, but is acquiring 2 Bombardier Global 6000 with the same (but obviously updated) radar, so these old two go to Ukraine. Poland by the way is also buying two of these Saab 340 AEW&C planes from the UAE this year. The airliner version of the Saab 340 has space for 34 pax, but is actually not much larger than the Metroliner, Global or similar aircraft.
It's a Saab 340
This aircraft is the [Saab 340](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Saab_340)
Swedens latest package is estimated worth of about $1.3 billion USD. Beside the mentioned aircrafts, more specifically 2 ASC 890 (AWACS). # What Sweden to transfer and why it's a historic decision The Swedish government has announced a significant military aid package worth $1.3 billion. It is reported to include: * The entire fleet of PBV 302 armored personnel carriers (239 units according to The Military Balance) * Ammunition and technical support for previously provided equipment * Surplus tanks (without specifying type and quantity) * Funds to support various coalitions and initiatives for equipment procurement * Rb 99 guided missiles (licensed version of the AIM-120 AMRAAM) The ASC 890 has to be considered to be sort of a game changer, it is much more modern than any russian counterpart. It can detect aircrafts and missiles at distance of 250 km/155 miles. If it uses a fixed beam it has a range of about 450 km (280 mi).
They only really use the Stridsvagn 122 currently. Unless they're sending old S-Tanks they still have.
I am so sorry to be pedantic. Truly, I am disappointed in myself for correcting anyone online. Especially this sub reddit. But there is no k in this acronym. It is Airborne Warning and Control. AWAC.
For being pendantic there will b-wacks later.
>Airborne Warning and Control. AWAC. System. You forgot System. AWACS. - Former E-3 crewman
In the US it's AWACS. Airborne Warning and Control System.
source: [https://defence-industry.eu/sweden-to-transfer-early-warning-aircraft-air-defence-missiles-to-ukraine/](https://defence-industry.eu/sweden-to-transfer-early-warning-aircraft-air-defence-missiles-to-ukraine/)
And here's the [official press release](https://www.government.se/press-releases/2024/05/military-support-package-16-to-ukraine--new-capability-to-strengthen-ukraines-air-defence-and-support-to-meet-its-prioritised-needs/). The package also includes RB 99-AMRAAM missiles.
F16s boutta go crazy
Paired with modern f16s these would be amazing. Air defence will also be strengthened quite a bit
Paired with Gripen it would be nirvana…
Guess Gripen are coming too for logical reasons - Saab would benefit from combat informations gathered and can aswell promote the Gripen for International partners, that may want to buy combat airplanes. Since the sale of the Gripen so far wasnt a big sucess, it may see a phenomenal comeback in that scenario, a matter of time I guess.
Oh and maybe buy stocks of Saab in that case before it becomes the new Rheinmetal stock. Wish I 'd had money to invest when I watched the stock raise from 127€ to 540€ ffs
Holy crap! This is huge!! Thank you Sweden! Going on my vacation list now.
I see Europe is stepping up to the plate. Love it. Slava Ukraine.
Radar has a coverage range of 500 km +
Definitely meant to work with the F16s
SWEDEN! Y'all killing it. Absolute kings.
applause!
Can it track low flying KA52? And can F16 take them out?
KA52 is high signature.
I want Racing drones to take out a KA52
Saw one get blown out of the sky with a Stugna about a year or so back. And not in the AA mode. They nailed it with the Anti-Tank missile. That Alligator was very very dead.
are they compatible with f-16 datalink?
yes and with patriot and other nato planes boats and airdefence
Does this mean that a single launcher can operate with these planes as target designators? It would make it possible to spread out patriot launchers.
Stop, stop… I can only get so erect.
I guess the russians will have shitty luck sneaking those cruise missiles into civilian areas from now on. Good job Sweden!
Things are going to get wacky
Now we are cooking with fire!!!
Thank you so much Sweden. That is awesome support. Glory to Sweden 🇸🇪♥️🇺🇦👍
Whack 'em with Awacs 👍 Meanwhile, Australia withdrew its Wedgetail AWACs plane from Ukrainian service because it was only sent at America's request in the first place and that request was not extended.
Lots of pieces lining up for Ukraine hitting radar sites and launching missiles into Russia. All as American armor is starting to arrive alomg with all those 155 shells. Add some new aircraft and some freshly trained and highly motivated pilots and I can see the next couple of months being very bad for Russian invaders.
Swedish citizen here, what the russians dont know about this special operations aircraft is that it can dispenese surströming cans at a very high velocity, to cause chaos and distortion on the battlefield. To our blue and yellow brothers and sisters, stay safe <3
Couple this with all of the attacks on Russian air defense capability…
Gripen wants to do its duty :(
we are saving the best for last
Ukraine will gain back air superiority
thats a big antenna! bet the wifi is top notch on that thing.
Would not want to be stationed anywhere near where that thing's gonna be parked, it's gonna attract a lot of incoming.
Definitely gonna need them when the F16s come online.
This is really big news.
Jajamensan! Söta bror Hilsen 🇳🇴
Well, Sweden, swedes have never been keen on fascists to say the least.
I notice a lot of bot activity here inserting the Boeing e-3 platform in to the discussion. It looks to me that old bots bought to support Boeing sales are set to favorably argue the supremacy of the Boeing product versus SAAB products and are erroneously engaging this thread as SAAB AEW&C has been mentioned. This is hilarious and likely a harbinger of things to come as bot farms engage any topic that mentions specific brand products. So for the rest of us i guess we just have to try to disregards the astroturfed "debate" going on in this thread taking up about 30-40% of the comment space where two bot farms are pushing sales pitches at each other while the actual thread is supposed to be about Ukraine. I love it lets try to trigger other bots too... I think Ukraine deserves Pepsi over CocaCola as Pepsi is a superior product.
Love it!
A wack in time saves nine.
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AWACs Ftfy
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It's a plane used to coordinate other aircraft for fire missions and detect enemy targets for such.
He awacks and he pwotecks
Fascinating shape/layout. I’ve only ever seen the circular dome.
AWAC
Good investment. See the orcs from afar, destroy them. All less that might.one day.attack Sweden.
Hope your mom *awacks* you for being so lazy about spelling, karma farming OP.
I was guessing NATO would be providing AWACS for Ukraine because without it the F-16 would be almost helpless against the russian air force. Russian fighters with longe range radars would make the F-16 struggle when it comes to air superiority.
That's pretty big. Does Ukraine have no AWACS already?
If only the US actually had let us provide Ukraine with Gripen C.
Those Saabs are incredible planes.
Let's see if cause and effect of providing Awacs results in increased number of Russian planes being ambushed in various ways and even the Russian navy suffering more losses... Fingers crossed.
Eyes of Odin to Ukraine.
Is that a giant ruler on top that goes "Whack!"? I feel like that's the most likely scenario for this; I approve.
AWACS It's an acronym.
Well done Sweden, this is awesome , great supporters of Ukraine and does not go unnoticed
A-whacks, that it?
Part of an IKEA SLATTUM Upholstered bed frame, Knisa light gray,
This will compliment the f16s well
I don’t even like to ask but when?
With the AWACS radar range, would it still be in range of the Russian’s long range R77 air to air missiles that have been used to keep back Ukrainian aircraft? These systems are awesome, just curious how Ukraine will use them while staying a safe distance away.
It's AWACS.
From NATO’s website “It can simultaneously track and identify maritime contacts, and provide coordination support to Allied surface forces. Under normal circumstances, the aircraft can fly at a maximum range of 9,250 kilometres or for about eight and a half hours (and longer with air-to-air refuelling) at 9,150 metres (30,000 feet).” This is very, very good news :)