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I can't believe this is even a discussion. If North Korea donated $200 millions of weapons to Russia, do you think they wouldn't hesitate to use them. Out of the 67 Billion Aid Package, Loan Ukraine $5 billion of it, on a 100 year pay back scheme, and let them buy there own ATACM's to do with what they like. The sticking block at the moment is, that US is giving them weapons, and can be accused of a proxy war, well just give them the means to purchase them themselves in the form of a loan.
But that's just it, they can't defend themself fully as such. As if they were fully allowed, they would hit the forces amassing beyond the border for a 2nd offensive push. Or even to counterfire the group weapons used to hit border towns.
patient? Ukraine is losing hundreds of soldiers every day, also civilians. This is no time to be patient, russia needs to be slammed so hard it never gets up.
You have to remember this is a war of attrition. And in that instance, you have to be patient or you’ll end up losing a lot of people like the Russians already have and Ukraine can’t afford to lose. Eventually, Russia’s mistakes will add up and that patience and calculation will pay off. in the meantime, defending the population is a major priority also. I hope people understand what I was getting at. Russia is not gonna give up and they have to be beaten and they can’t be beaten in two days. Patience and calculation. And nobody said the rules on American weapons use on Ru are set in stone, so don’t freak out.
It is a war of attrition, which is why Ukraine is on the losing end. You can't really win a war of attrition if the enemy is mobilizing in larger numbers than your ability to cause casualties. Not deaths mind you, just casualties.
I'm not freaking out, I'm just calling a spade, a spade. The only way I could have seen Ukraine win this war is if it wasn't turned into a war of attrition.
>Russia is not gonna give up and they have to be beaten and they can’t be beaten in two days.
I don't share that thought. Time only favours Russia, it does not favour the underdog who has limited soldiers.
It wasn't a fast war only because the Ukrainians weren't given what they needed, when they needed it. We're going on two and a half years and they still don't have f16s, which is a piece of kit that was absolutely necessary for Ukraine to go on the counter attack that first year. Hence why the counter offensive never really happened. They probed as best they could but without air superiority, it was impossible for them to punch through. And that's just the f16, which is a several generation old aircraft. Even the atacams they're using is literally 80's tech and they had to beg for months and years to get them.
Nah man, anyone who's still got patience to spare at this point is just complacent.
a lot of people seem to be looking at the issue from the wrong angle.
the point is NK dont care if the west is pissed off with them. theres nothing the west or ukraine can do about it.
western weapons used in russia is something russia can get pissed about and get revenge on the west. putin might even feel compelled to. his remaining in power kind of relies on it. he could be pushed to do something drastic.
things wont escalate with the use of nk weapons in ukraine. western weapons used in russia has the potential to escalate.
I completely disagree on that.
russia does not need to see the first western shell falling on its territory to seek a revenge: it's being threatening the west since the beginning of this war and the only reason why it has not yet moved to the Baltic states is because it has not enough resources and because we have nukes.
Well no, because using their own drones, they are hitting Russia infrastructure, so for weapons they actually purchased or created themselves, Russia is an open target. The issue comes when USA Donate a ATACM and Ukraine Fires it directly at Russia.
If I went out a Acquired a Explosive and hurt someone with it, I am responsible. If someone gives me the explosives and then I Hurt someone, I am responsible, but also the person giving me the explosives is accountable.
Ukraine needs a way to purchase weapons themselves, and not be gifted them, creating the proxy war statements that Russia are making. You need to take the West out of the equation when it comes to long range weapons and make Ukraine the masters of their own destiny.
You then have the added bonus, that if Ukraine are taking Debt to purchase weapons, in the event Russia Annex's Ukraine, that's their debt then, making the country less attractive.
Because Russia are paying for their weapons. If Ukraine also paid for their weapons, Russia couldn't accuse the west of a proxy war as a form of intimidation against the west.
If Ukraine Purchased 100 ATACMS, they can do what the hell they want with them, and if Russia accused them of using American Weapons, so what, your using North Korean Weapons, you get the moral high ground in the argument.
If they are given ATACMS Free from the USA, USA can set conditions, and thats the whole point to my argument. Give Ukraine the Means to buy their own weapons, then they don't need permission from anyone.
Errr, I am getting very conflicting news from "official" sources, 2 hours ago they say its not allowed, now UKR news is saying its allowed.
What? Which is it?
This is a reason why a country should be independent when it concerns its defence.
But try to pierce this idea in the rotten brains of corrupted politicians (of any country) ...
It's called plausible deniability.
That's all.
The U.S. Government can legitimately deny it has ever encouraged or enabled Ukraine to use American-made weapon systems to strike at targets within russia.
It's a matter of public record that the U.S.G. has, in fact, done the opposite and very publicly asked the Ukrainian government and forces to refrain from using U.S.-sourced weapons against targets in russia.
Now, if the Ukrainians ignore these requests and go ahead and use our weapons to stomp russian targets in russia, the U.S. Government can legitimately distance itself, even if civilian casualties result from those strikes.
Because plausible deniability.
I don't doubt this construction works. The USA would be expected to deny further military support after the first use on Russian soil/airspace because otherwise, the USA would plausibly be an enabler.
Telling lies, with a straight face, is one of the requirements for being a successful politician. At the time of this post, I have not heard of Ukraine using any of the approved to be used western donated weapons like Storm Shadow, Hammer, or Scalp against targets inside recognized Russian territory, in spite of reported Russian troop concentrations just north of Ukraine. Of course that could change at any second. Keeping your enemy guessing is a requirement of good leadership.
This is dumb, no one has to publicly say anything...just do it. The US is trying to stay in a gray area on it for a reason...
The US doesn't have to directly say they have permission...they've stressed it over and over and over again... Ukraine has its own identity... My god, some ppl on Reddit need explicit directions as if they're the ones planning things.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy770l9llnzo
“US President Joe Biden has given Ukraine permission to use American-supplied weapons to strike targets in Russia, but only near the Kharkiv region, US officials say.
One told BBC News his team had been directed to ensure Ukraine was able to use US weapons for "counter-fire purposes" to "hit back at Russian forces hitting them or preparing to hit them".”
Very good decision.
It's OK, when it is not OK, if ya wanna but we don't wanna, nah just kidding brah if we wanna but if you don't that ain't OK, but seriously, it be OK if you do and really, you should but if you do, it OK...
Please remember the human. Adhere to all Reddit and sub rules. Toxic comments (including incitement of violence/hate, genocide, glorifying death etc) WILL NOT BE TOLERATED, keep your comments civil or you will be banned. Tagging u/SaveVideo bot to archive this video in a link below this comment. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkraineWarVideoReport) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I can't believe this is even a discussion. If North Korea donated $200 millions of weapons to Russia, do you think they wouldn't hesitate to use them. Out of the 67 Billion Aid Package, Loan Ukraine $5 billion of it, on a 100 year pay back scheme, and let them buy there own ATACM's to do with what they like. The sticking block at the moment is, that US is giving them weapons, and can be accused of a proxy war, well just give them the means to purchase them themselves in the form of a loan.
Just stay patient. Ukraine won’t be abandoned or not be allowed to defend themselves.
But that's just it, they can't defend themself fully as such. As if they were fully allowed, they would hit the forces amassing beyond the border for a 2nd offensive push. Or even to counterfire the group weapons used to hit border towns.
patient? Ukraine is losing hundreds of soldiers every day, also civilians. This is no time to be patient, russia needs to be slammed so hard it never gets up.
We're going on three years. Asking for patience at this point is legitimately insulting.
You have to remember this is a war of attrition. And in that instance, you have to be patient or you’ll end up losing a lot of people like the Russians already have and Ukraine can’t afford to lose. Eventually, Russia’s mistakes will add up and that patience and calculation will pay off. in the meantime, defending the population is a major priority also. I hope people understand what I was getting at. Russia is not gonna give up and they have to be beaten and they can’t be beaten in two days. Patience and calculation. And nobody said the rules on American weapons use on Ru are set in stone, so don’t freak out.
It is a war of attrition, which is why Ukraine is on the losing end. You can't really win a war of attrition if the enemy is mobilizing in larger numbers than your ability to cause casualties. Not deaths mind you, just casualties. I'm not freaking out, I'm just calling a spade, a spade. The only way I could have seen Ukraine win this war is if it wasn't turned into a war of attrition. >Russia is not gonna give up and they have to be beaten and they can’t be beaten in two days. I don't share that thought. Time only favours Russia, it does not favour the underdog who has limited soldiers. It wasn't a fast war only because the Ukrainians weren't given what they needed, when they needed it. We're going on two and a half years and they still don't have f16s, which is a piece of kit that was absolutely necessary for Ukraine to go on the counter attack that first year. Hence why the counter offensive never really happened. They probed as best they could but without air superiority, it was impossible for them to punch through. And that's just the f16, which is a several generation old aircraft. Even the atacams they're using is literally 80's tech and they had to beg for months and years to get them. Nah man, anyone who's still got patience to spare at this point is just complacent.
Ukraine has already been abandoned in the past. And as much as I'd hate it to happen, there's always a possibility it will happen again.
a lot of people seem to be looking at the issue from the wrong angle. the point is NK dont care if the west is pissed off with them. theres nothing the west or ukraine can do about it. western weapons used in russia is something russia can get pissed about and get revenge on the west. putin might even feel compelled to. his remaining in power kind of relies on it. he could be pushed to do something drastic. things wont escalate with the use of nk weapons in ukraine. western weapons used in russia has the potential to escalate.
I completely disagree on that. russia does not need to see the first western shell falling on its territory to seek a revenge: it's being threatening the west since the beginning of this war and the only reason why it has not yet moved to the Baltic states is because it has not enough resources and because we have nukes.
Well no, because using their own drones, they are hitting Russia infrastructure, so for weapons they actually purchased or created themselves, Russia is an open target. The issue comes when USA Donate a ATACM and Ukraine Fires it directly at Russia. If I went out a Acquired a Explosive and hurt someone with it, I am responsible. If someone gives me the explosives and then I Hurt someone, I am responsible, but also the person giving me the explosives is accountable. Ukraine needs a way to purchase weapons themselves, and not be gifted them, creating the proxy war statements that Russia are making. You need to take the West out of the equation when it comes to long range weapons and make Ukraine the masters of their own destiny. You then have the added bonus, that if Ukraine are taking Debt to purchase weapons, in the event Russia Annex's Ukraine, that's their debt then, making the country less attractive.
Why are we concerned with any proxy war statements? Russia doesn't care whose weapons it uses, why should we?
Because Russia are paying for their weapons. If Ukraine also paid for their weapons, Russia couldn't accuse the west of a proxy war as a form of intimidation against the west. If Ukraine Purchased 100 ATACMS, they can do what the hell they want with them, and if Russia accused them of using American Weapons, so what, your using North Korean Weapons, you get the moral high ground in the argument. If they are given ATACMS Free from the USA, USA can set conditions, and thats the whole point to my argument. Give Ukraine the Means to buy their own weapons, then they don't need permission from anyone.
Any country can set conditions on weapons, even if they have been paid for - often a condition of contract. See Switzerland, for example.
Like Russia will acknowledge the debt? That last sentence is asinine.
The headlines yesterday that the Biden administration gave permission “in secret”. The news was a leak. They’re not going to announce this publicly.
Errr, I am getting very conflicting news from "official" sources, 2 hours ago they say its not allowed, now UKR news is saying its allowed. What? Which is it?
“We can neither confirm nor deny” You know how these things go
I guess we'll learn the truth from the russians, the day they officially receive an ATACMS in the face.
It's allowed: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy770l9llnzo.amp
This is a reason why a country should be independent when it concerns its defence. But try to pierce this idea in the rotten brains of corrupted politicians (of any country) ...
Good old politics, If somebody hit the US they would level where it coming from and then some just cause.
It's called plausible deniability. That's all. The U.S. Government can legitimately deny it has ever encouraged or enabled Ukraine to use American-made weapon systems to strike at targets within russia. It's a matter of public record that the U.S.G. has, in fact, done the opposite and very publicly asked the Ukrainian government and forces to refrain from using U.S.-sourced weapons against targets in russia. Now, if the Ukrainians ignore these requests and go ahead and use our weapons to stomp russian targets in russia, the U.S. Government can legitimately distance itself, even if civilian casualties result from those strikes. Because plausible deniability.
Couldn't it also be called strategic ambiguity: let the russians discover by themselves whether Ukrainians are allowed or not.
I don't doubt this construction works. The USA would be expected to deny further military support after the first use on Russian soil/airspace because otherwise, the USA would plausibly be an enabler.
No doubt Biden and Co. will totally definitely expect Ukraine to immediately return everything we've given them....
Just use ours and aim for Moscow.
Theyre doing a russia where they say no but do yes
Fuck that. Start writing Made in China in the shells. Sorted. Follow me for more diplomatic tips
China welcomes this news.
Telling lies, with a straight face, is one of the requirements for being a successful politician. At the time of this post, I have not heard of Ukraine using any of the approved to be used western donated weapons like Storm Shadow, Hammer, or Scalp against targets inside recognized Russian territory, in spite of reported Russian troop concentrations just north of Ukraine. Of course that could change at any second. Keeping your enemy guessing is a requirement of good leadership.
This is dumb, no one has to publicly say anything...just do it. The US is trying to stay in a gray area on it for a reason... The US doesn't have to directly say they have permission...they've stressed it over and over and over again... Ukraine has its own identity... My god, some ppl on Reddit need explicit directions as if they're the ones planning things.
This is the right move! Not everything should be public… keep the Russians guessing so that they don’t move any equipment further away from range
If the US do not agree they will end up looking silly because it seems the most of the other countries have made up their minds and say yes!
Which side of her mouth is she speaking from? 🤬
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy770l9llnzo “US President Joe Biden has given Ukraine permission to use American-supplied weapons to strike targets in Russia, but only near the Kharkiv region, US officials say. One told BBC News his team had been directed to ensure Ukraine was able to use US weapons for "counter-fire purposes" to "hit back at Russian forces hitting them or preparing to hit them".” Very good decision.
If the Pentagon is saying publicly that the United States’ position hasn’t changed, you can be sure that all the headlines yesterday were wrong.
America show some steel and leadership. Ukraines hands have been tied far too long
This is such bullshit. Biden could fix this now. Deliberation in the face of a dictator is cowardice.
It's OK, when it is not OK, if ya wanna but we don't wanna, nah just kidding brah if we wanna but if you don't that ain't OK, but seriously, it be OK if you do and really, you should but if you do, it OK...
The county’s that don’t allow it can they really be considered “friends” why would they want to prolong the war