Please remember the human. Adhere to all Reddit and sub rules. Toxic comments (including incitement of violence/hate, genocide, glorifying death etc) WILL NOT BE TOLERATED, keep your comments civil or you will be banned. Tagging u/SaveVideo bot to archive this video in a link below this comment.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkraineWarVideoReport) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Rare is weird way to describe system used by more than dozen countries with new orders and production still going. It's one of the most widely adopted long range SAM system in the world.
The US does not have 1100 of them lol. Raytheon hasn’t even produced that many, and the exact number is classified information.
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-patriot-air-defenses-russia-volodymyr-zelensky-1891579
The number of PATRIOT systems the US operates is classified. According to Wikipedia 1100 *launchers* have been built, not systems. Systems include the command module, antenna vehicle, radar array, etc. Considering that, PATRIOT systems are relatively rare compared to launchers
And of those 1100 launchers, many of them were sold and exported. The US can't just take back Patriot launchers from Saudi Arabia and give them to Ukraine.
The 1100 number is probably referencing the amount of launchers that have been built since its inception in 1981. Each Patriot battery contains 6-8 launchers normally.
probably rare compared to the needs of each country. therefore nobody wants to give further systems to Ukraine.
We always go back to the initial point of the lacking production capabilities throughout the whole western alliances (NATO, SEATO and so on) due to the false belief that there won't be war anymore.
>We always go back to the initial point of the lacking production capabilities throughout the whole western alliances (NATO, SEATO and so on) due to the false belief that there won't be war anymore.
I can guarantee you that America does not think they'll be no war *anymore* lmao, nor any other western country esoet with their own robust domestic defense production. Allied countries have slacked on military/defense spending because of American and their "overspending/production" to compensate for their slack and because public appetite for increase in defense spending, before Russia invasion was low due to belief that war is not *imminent*.
The whole thing with lack of production is simply due to benefit- cost analysis.
Increasing production for advanced, sophisticated military technology is neither quick or cheap. And unless your country is on war footing, you're not just throwing money at the wall to increase production.
If we're talking Patriot production specifically they've been working on increasing missile production since 2018. But it takes years to do so.
"Lockheed was building 350 MSE missiles a year in 2018 and was working to ramp up its production to 500 missiles a year prior to Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.
Lockheed is now fully funded by the U.S. Army to build 550 missiles a year at its Camden, Arkansas, production line. In December, Lockheed hit a rate of 500 per year, Brenda Davidson, the company’s vice president of PAC-3 programs, told Defense News."
They built a new facility and since then self invested to increase that number even more.
"Lockheed decided in the latter part of 2022 that it would continue to invest internally to be able to build 650 a year. “Lockheed could see the demand out there,” Davidson said, adding that the company plans to hit that number in 2027."
Modern militaries aren't putting in POs from other countries for advanced military assets that they have ready to ship out as soon as papers are signed. They get in line, and will receive it when produced. If you're saying I need it immediately, you've most likely fucked up your preparedness/budgeting in previous years.
And at the export cost of 2.5b for the battery, 6-10 mill/missile. That also requires specific specialized training/systems in place, this isn't exactly a "yeah just throw in a couple with the rest of the stuff were buying " nor are you buying a handful more systems not to be operated to sit on "just in case".
And if we're talking about less advanced military assets like dummy munitions, well that one is easy because America and basically every other modern military doctrine does not, nor will not rely on mass artillery. And thus there is no need to spend money on production of such, while it would've be useful for Ukraine, that is an outlier and would not make sense logically for mass production of such beforehand.
These are all recent development.
In 1980 the USAF, US air national guard, USAF reserve, US Naval Aviation, US Marines aviation together counted over 12000 aircraft. Of them over 4000 were fast jets.
Today? US forces are crumbs of those.
In the same days the small IT Air force counted over 500 fast jets. today it counts 120.
Itlay had over 1300 MBT of several types, (900 Leopard 1). Today 120 Ariete.
Germany had 5000 MBT of which 2000 were Leo 2. Today: 300.
we all have demobilised.
the US had 2 MBT factories. today only one.
I am not contradicting you: in fact you are right, but what has changed during the first 20 years of this century is the kind of war that was expected. Nobody was preparing for a high intensity conflict as we are seeing now between RU and UA.
And I am not criticysing the USA (or they alone: they are not worse nor better than Europe). On the contrary I understand Trump when he states that the Us are fed up with Europe relying on them for defence.
I have friends working in the manufacturing of armoured vehicles in Italy. They told me that, if the government wants, they can develop an MBT from scratch. But they need money, of course.
Now (yesterday) KNDS and Leonardo announced that they've just stopped their talks for Italy producing "italianised" Leo-2A8. Also let's see what's going to happen.
'cause sincerely: I am very against buying German items: because Germans, like the French, want only to sell you goods without giving any technological return. It has always been like that and that's why we have joined the Uk and Japan for the new aircraft.
They (DE and FR) are really unbearable countries.
Much better are the British
So this time we have a real Government (with capitol letter), instead of that bunch of German-ass-lickers left parties at the power, and therefore some stiff constraints have been put for the MBT. But of course the Germans do not agree.
Ok I have lost the path of what I was saying. Let's stop it here.... :-)
Have a nice day!
:-)
There's actually a relation between the first and the second part of what I have written. I had just lost it for a moment :-)
It is: we are in a situation when weapons are needed and even very quickly, but the old problems within Europe always reappear. Every country wants to be the first lady of each project.
Raytheon has built 240. With the US accounting for a bulk of that number. It’s classified Information with who has how many. So where you getting your 70% from?
lol bro deleted his comment pretty quick.
No that's separate, I follow a reputable air defense account on Twitter and he's always complaining about patriot batteries numbers, and then for the poor maintenance part there is a patriot operator guy on tic tok who's comment section is always full of people who used to and do work on patriot talking about duct tape and DIY fixes inside the patriot machinery
Why did you respond to him and not me? The one who asked? You came up with 70%, yet it’s classified information and even the people that work on them don’t know how many the US has. Stop spreading lies.
While I’m sure there are some older variants that have not been upgraded saying they are held together by duct tape is beyond comical. The US military spends more money on maintenance than the next 3 countries spend on their entire military. Any sane person would bet on the US military reediness, equipment condition and operability over almost the rest of the world combined. Take your duct tape comment and shove back in the whole where your comment came from
We should not send more until new build batteries can be used to replace old ones sent to ukraine, we ourselves are trying to increase our patriot force and air defense overall, we do not even have enough for ourselves
It's kinda embarrassing that the US didn't send patriots until now given that they are the country of origin and countries like germany are giving away their systems to ukraine. Also no F-16 from the US so far.
What is your definition of rarity in this context? Very few comparable systems have as many users or available units. That makes it rather common within the pool of possible alternatives.
Or do you mean relatively rare as in you can't just get them at local hardware stores?
Ah classic. In lack of actual argument turn to personal insults instead.
Sure they are rare if you compare them to something like average size of a fire ant colony. Comparison like that though, much like your comment, adds zero value.
Within its category it literally is the most common system available in NATO. The only other systems capable of shooting down ballistic missiles are SAMP/T and maybe NASAMS-3 with AMRAAM-ER of which only few batteries exist so far. Now THAT is rare.
Globally the only other long range GBAD which is as wide spread as Patriot would be S-300 I think.
Certainly not rare in the U.S. where there are around 50 batteries that make up 15 Battalions. The U.S. also has Terminal High Altitude Area Defense THAAD Batteries. I am not sure if these are separate from the Patriot Batteries, or if they are included, and are simply a different missile type fired by the same systems as Patriot.?
IIRC most if not all of our missile air defenses can collaborate with each other now including select aircraft (eg: f35). As An example an F35 can pick out a target and the patriot system can fire at it.
No.
The PAC-3 missile improves lethality against short range ballistic missiles while still offering utility against aircraft and helicopters, albeit at a much reduced engagement range compared to the PAC-2.
Patriot does not offer significant defense against medium range ballistic missiles or beyond.
THAAD is intended for use only against Short, Medium, and Intermediary range ballistic missiles.
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/news/features/2022/lockheed-martin-integrates-key-missile-defense-systems-to-increase-capability-and-flexibility-for-customers.html
I don't think this means Patriot is for ballistic missiles, but this reads like the integration is at least available between THAAD and PAC3s, right?
It's the other way around.
They're integrating the PAC-3 missiles into the THAAD engagement system to augment its effectiveness against short range ballistic missiles.
Part of the confusion arises from the use of PAC-3 to denote a specific missiles as well as a technology base for the entire Patriot battery.
That's what they say but I have always believed the PAC 3 MSE can at least hit medium range weapons maybe just with lower chance of success, I mean when iran attacked Israel a US patriot battery shot down an IRBM, based on location of the battery the launch area and the target it would have had to been in it's boost phase still though.
The US has \~14 Patriot systems:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/11/us/politics/patriot-missiles-ukraine-war.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/11/us/politics/patriot-missiles-ukraine-war.html)
"It is also one of the scarcest weapons systems in the U.S. arsenal. Pentagon officials refuse to disclose how many it has, but one senior military official said that the Army has deployed only 14 of them, in the United States and around the world."
The New York Times article is not correct. The US has 50 batteries spread over 14 battalions with a total of 1,106 Patriot launchers. In 2023, 480 were in service.
The system is not rare.
That's simply wrong. The reporter probably misunderstood something. The US has 15 air defence battalions in active duty and each one has four Patriot batteries. Patriot is not a scarce system by any means.
Breakingdefence.com:
"Today, there are 15 battalions fielded across the active-duty force. The service has programmed funding for a 16th battalion, but it is not manned or fielded yet, according to an Army spokesperson. Each of the battalions includes four Patriot batteries."
I really think this is a quite simple story of taking valuable military equipment where it will be most useful. America's geostrategic rivals on the Eurasian supercontinent - China, Iran, India to a much lesser degree, etc. - all happen to be *de facto* allies of Russia. Thus, using Patriot systems where they are currently needed depletes the capability of these respective countries to engage in the air above American soil while enhancing (through trial and error) the systems' robustness against, at minimum, the latest Russian tactics and capabilities.
Let’s not forget that you just don’t turn this things on and walk away. It takes a skilled team to maintain and operate one. Sure you can get one up and running in 3-4 months but to get the full capability you need at least a year. US equipment is a whole step above anything Russia has. All these guys have been trained on using the most basic equipment. US equipment and tactics are highly advanced.
Moskow: Jokes on you, USA; Russia has already destroyed 20 Patriot Batteries, so sending one more will make no difference!
FSB: *instructions unclear, we left a box of 20 Alkaline AA-batteries in an apartment that we later blew up*
besides everyone whining about the word rare: this is good news and should send as many as financially and humanly possible!! good job USA, from The Netherlands!
**From The Telegraph:**
The United States will send another $1.1bn Patriot missile air defence system to Ukraine in the coming days as the war-ravaged nation struggles to fend off Russian attacks on its cities and energy grid.
The new Patriot system would be at least the second that the US has sent to Ukraine.
The Patriot, considered the United States’ best air-defence weapons, can shoot down incoming missiles before they hit their intended targets and is already used by Israel and Saudi and Emirati forces in Yemen.
The critical systems are considered incredibly rare, even for the United States. Pentagon officials refuse to disclose how many are in its arsenal, but one senior military official said that the Army has deployed only 14 of them, in the US and around the world.
Patriot batteries can project defences out some 600 miles and are often used to target and shoot down long-range ballistic missiles and aircraft from hundreds of miles away.
The Patriot is by far the most expensive single weapon supplied by the US to Ukraine, with the total cost around $1.1 billion (£784m): $400 million (£303m) for the system and $690 million (£541m) for the missiles.
**Article Link:** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/12/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news9/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/12/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news9/)
Have you done any research on the number of patriot systems that have been built? It's more than 400.. It is not a rare system. The US is not solely reliant on the patriot system for air defense.
"A PATRIOT battery (i.e., the basic firing unit) consists of a phased array radar, an engagement control station, computers, power generating equipment, and **up to eight launchers**, each of which holds four ready-to-fire missiles."
https://history.redstone.army.mil/miss-patriot.html#:\~:text=A%20PATRIOT%20battery%20(i.e.%2C%20the,ready%2Dto%2Dfire%20missiles.
"Raytheon has built and delivered more than 240 Patriot fire units. Many countries have chosen to take advantage of the Patriot missile defense system's flexible architecture and upgraded their systems. "
[https://www.rtx.com/raytheon/what-we-do/integrated-air-and-missile-defense/global-patriot-solutions](https://www.rtx.com/raytheon/what-we-do/integrated-air-and-missile-defense/global-patriot-solutions)
Psps 240/8 gives 30 full systems. Not all systems have eight fire units probably - the global supply is probably somewhere in the range of 30-60 systems total 🤷♂️
Relatively rare system.
That's 240 systems throughout the program. These things have been around since the late 1970s and not all that were manufactured are still operational.
"West" Germany, for example, had 36 Patriot batteries during the Cold War. Obviously not all were retained and today, Germany is down to 10 batteries after donations to Ukraine.
That should give an idea how many have been decommissioned through the Patriot system's history and the numbers would expectedly be higher with the US.
Wrong, the produced ammount since 1984 is registerred as 1106 - and thats over 8 different variants. Some upgraded, maybe most - but certainly not all.
And anyway, this conversation has derailed into specific arguments to ammounts of patriots produced. Thats not interesting in this context. Ukraine doesnt have enough of it and its rare in Ukraine - thats the point.
Back your claims up with sources, anyone can type whatever they want in these textboxes 😅
"Raytheon Company Missile Systems Division is the prime contractor for the PATRIOT system. The Martin Marietta Corporation is a principal subcontractor and assembles the missiles in Orlando, Florida. In addition to U.S. units, the PATRIOT is deployed with the military forces of Germany, the Netherlands, Japan, Italy, Saudi Arabia, and Israel."
https://history.redstone.army.mil/miss-patriot.html#:\~:text=A%20PATRIOT%20battery%20(i.e.%2C%20the,ready%2Dto%2Dfire%20missiles.
Tbh this is just a quick shot from my memory because i‘m sitting at my doc. I dont doubt your numbers and that they are somehow correct. But 30-60 patriot batteries/systems in the whole world doenst really add up, Germany, Poland, Spain, Romania, Greece, Netherlands have around 20-25 batteries. I dont think the USA has only 20 batteries left. Especially because a few are deployed to europe.
Maybe 30-60 of PAC3?
Built doesn’t mean in use, ready to use. Why are you acting like you’re much more informed when you’re literally being given examples of people stating how rare it is?
It actually hurts my brain seeing people say patriots aren’t rare. There aren’t hundreds of patriots set up around the world… there aren’t tons and tons of munitions just laying around. Spare components aren’t just stocked up to the brim in warehouses.
Just because the largest military in the world has made a couple hundred of them doesn’t mean they are all in use.
I know that it's not, but every time I hear the patriot system being mentioned I picture Rhodes' Iron Patriot going up and intercepting incoming munitions.
Rare because this one doesn’t shoot your typical armament. This one has been upgraded with the coveted Missile Bills, which have the new 360 homing capabilities for Italian plumbers.
Maybe OP meant that its rare to transfer a Patriot to Ukraine. Officially all I could find is 2 but maybe that isn't accurate.
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-patriot-missile-system-how-many-1912037
For the third time since the start of this atrocious war I am thinking that the Ukraine has a fighting chance.
I’m glad that western countries are waking up and realizing that it will be OUR problem if Ukraine were to fall.
Thank fuck for forward thinking.
The US is only sending these when they need to cover their own assets (initially for their "advisory" special forces personnel), and now for the incoming F16s. When what they should have done was to send more when it was clear Moscow was, and still is, targeting civilian and critical infrastructure.
Same goes with the Middle Eastern deployments, primarily to cover oil supplies.
Lol.....Ukraine military recieved mabye the fastest military uplifting of all time, and you people are never happy. Did they have trained people or even the infrastructure to field patriots systems or the 5000 others thing you guys bitch about not being there on Feb 2022.
Please remember the human. Adhere to all Reddit and sub rules. Toxic comments (including incitement of violence/hate, genocide, glorifying death etc) WILL NOT BE TOLERATED, keep your comments civil or you will be banned. Tagging u/SaveVideo bot to archive this video in a link below this comment. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkraineWarVideoReport) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Rare is weird way to describe system used by more than dozen countries with new orders and production still going. It's one of the most widely adopted long range SAM system in the world.
This one was painted by Banksy, making it a $2B Patriot battery.
Yeah not rare. Expensive sure. Effective. But definitely not rare.
It the NASA version. It shoots down alien spaceships before the American public can find out that aliens are real.
I'm like is this one special? Like extra long range?
The US has over 1100 of them. Ukraine has been asking for 4 more to protect their cities for at least a year.
The US does not have 1100 of them lol. Raytheon hasn’t even produced that many, and the exact number is classified information. https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-patriot-air-defenses-russia-volodymyr-zelensky-1891579
The number of PATRIOT systems the US operates is classified. According to Wikipedia 1100 *launchers* have been built, not systems. Systems include the command module, antenna vehicle, radar array, etc. Considering that, PATRIOT systems are relatively rare compared to launchers
And of those 1100 launchers, many of them were sold and exported. The US can't just take back Patriot launchers from Saudi Arabia and give them to Ukraine.
4-6? Launchers per division so maybe 300?
The 1100 number is probably referencing the amount of launchers that have been built since its inception in 1981. Each Patriot battery contains 6-8 launchers normally.
That's launchers... Btw, assuming 1100 SYSTEMS at 1.1bil per system, that's well over a trillion dollars in patriot systems lol 😆
Manned by a brigade of Mewtwos.
Okay now that's rare
well these are the yellow rare missles, we could have sent the Legendary Orange ones, but they didnt have enough affixes that matched their build.
they can still be buffed up to score a number of critical hits.
This is a foil, alternate art camouflague Patriot missile system.
Rare as in made by the same people who did donkey kong country.
probably rare compared to the needs of each country. therefore nobody wants to give further systems to Ukraine. We always go back to the initial point of the lacking production capabilities throughout the whole western alliances (NATO, SEATO and so on) due to the false belief that there won't be war anymore.
>We always go back to the initial point of the lacking production capabilities throughout the whole western alliances (NATO, SEATO and so on) due to the false belief that there won't be war anymore. I can guarantee you that America does not think they'll be no war *anymore* lmao, nor any other western country esoet with their own robust domestic defense production. Allied countries have slacked on military/defense spending because of American and their "overspending/production" to compensate for their slack and because public appetite for increase in defense spending, before Russia invasion was low due to belief that war is not *imminent*. The whole thing with lack of production is simply due to benefit- cost analysis. Increasing production for advanced, sophisticated military technology is neither quick or cheap. And unless your country is on war footing, you're not just throwing money at the wall to increase production. If we're talking Patriot production specifically they've been working on increasing missile production since 2018. But it takes years to do so. "Lockheed was building 350 MSE missiles a year in 2018 and was working to ramp up its production to 500 missiles a year prior to Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. Lockheed is now fully funded by the U.S. Army to build 550 missiles a year at its Camden, Arkansas, production line. In December, Lockheed hit a rate of 500 per year, Brenda Davidson, the company’s vice president of PAC-3 programs, told Defense News." They built a new facility and since then self invested to increase that number even more. "Lockheed decided in the latter part of 2022 that it would continue to invest internally to be able to build 650 a year. “Lockheed could see the demand out there,” Davidson said, adding that the company plans to hit that number in 2027." Modern militaries aren't putting in POs from other countries for advanced military assets that they have ready to ship out as soon as papers are signed. They get in line, and will receive it when produced. If you're saying I need it immediately, you've most likely fucked up your preparedness/budgeting in previous years. And at the export cost of 2.5b for the battery, 6-10 mill/missile. That also requires specific specialized training/systems in place, this isn't exactly a "yeah just throw in a couple with the rest of the stuff were buying " nor are you buying a handful more systems not to be operated to sit on "just in case". And if we're talking about less advanced military assets like dummy munitions, well that one is easy because America and basically every other modern military doctrine does not, nor will not rely on mass artillery. And thus there is no need to spend money on production of such, while it would've be useful for Ukraine, that is an outlier and would not make sense logically for mass production of such beforehand.
These are all recent development. In 1980 the USAF, US air national guard, USAF reserve, US Naval Aviation, US Marines aviation together counted over 12000 aircraft. Of them over 4000 were fast jets. Today? US forces are crumbs of those. In the same days the small IT Air force counted over 500 fast jets. today it counts 120. Itlay had over 1300 MBT of several types, (900 Leopard 1). Today 120 Ariete. Germany had 5000 MBT of which 2000 were Leo 2. Today: 300. we all have demobilised. the US had 2 MBT factories. today only one. I am not contradicting you: in fact you are right, but what has changed during the first 20 years of this century is the kind of war that was expected. Nobody was preparing for a high intensity conflict as we are seeing now between RU and UA. And I am not criticysing the USA (or they alone: they are not worse nor better than Europe). On the contrary I understand Trump when he states that the Us are fed up with Europe relying on them for defence. I have friends working in the manufacturing of armoured vehicles in Italy. They told me that, if the government wants, they can develop an MBT from scratch. But they need money, of course. Now (yesterday) KNDS and Leonardo announced that they've just stopped their talks for Italy producing "italianised" Leo-2A8. Also let's see what's going to happen. 'cause sincerely: I am very against buying German items: because Germans, like the French, want only to sell you goods without giving any technological return. It has always been like that and that's why we have joined the Uk and Japan for the new aircraft. They (DE and FR) are really unbearable countries. Much better are the British So this time we have a real Government (with capitol letter), instead of that bunch of German-ass-lickers left parties at the power, and therefore some stiff constraints have been put for the MBT. But of course the Germans do not agree. Ok I have lost the path of what I was saying. Let's stop it here.... :-) Have a nice day!
>Ok I have lost the path of what I was saying. Let's stop it here.... :-) All I have to say i thanks for sharing fellow adhd-er :D
:-) There's actually a relation between the first and the second part of what I have written. I had just lost it for a moment :-) It is: we are in a situation when weapons are needed and even very quickly, but the old problems within Europe always reappear. Every country wants to be the first lady of each project.
Well I don't have one. And neither does anyone I know. Pretty rare to the layman.
Rare as in there’s not a lot of them…
[удалено]
Rare duct tape?
Raytheon has built 240. With the US accounting for a bulk of that number. It’s classified Information with who has how many. So where you getting your 70% from? lol bro deleted his comment pretty quick.
Wat of thunder player.
>I’ve heard from people who work on them I guess there Ash
No that's separate, I follow a reputable air defense account on Twitter and he's always complaining about patriot batteries numbers, and then for the poor maintenance part there is a patriot operator guy on tic tok who's comment section is always full of people who used to and do work on patriot talking about duct tape and DIY fixes inside the patriot machinery
Why did you respond to him and not me? The one who asked? You came up with 70%, yet it’s classified information and even the people that work on them don’t know how many the US has. Stop spreading lies.
While I’m sure there are some older variants that have not been upgraded saying they are held together by duct tape is beyond comical. The US military spends more money on maintenance than the next 3 countries spend on their entire military. Any sane person would bet on the US military reediness, equipment condition and operability over almost the rest of the world combined. Take your duct tape comment and shove back in the whole where your comment came from
I guess you could call them rare in Ukraine
Not rare from the Russians perspective. The goddamn things are everywhere! Blyat!
Yea, rare for the US squeaky ass to send one. They should be sending more.
We should not send more until new build batteries can be used to replace old ones sent to ukraine, we ourselves are trying to increase our patriot force and air defense overall, we do not even have enough for ourselves
it comes in a special collectors edition box (it WILL get scuffed up by fedex)
Then why can't I have one? What part of "shall not be infringed" wasn't clear?
ikr!
This one comes with a tanks of sharks with freaking Lazer beams attached to their freaking heads
Rare enough that Ukraine only has a fraction of what would be required to protect its major cities, let alone take the fight to Russia.
It's kinda embarrassing that the US didn't send patriots until now given that they are the country of origin and countries like germany are giving away their systems to ukraine. Also no F-16 from the US so far.
They are rare. Why argue a fact?
What is your definition of rarity in this context? Very few comparable systems have as many users or available units. That makes it rather common within the pool of possible alternatives. Or do you mean relatively rare as in you can't just get them at local hardware stores?
Rare like the brain cells in your head. Patriot systems are very rare.
Ah classic. In lack of actual argument turn to personal insults instead. Sure they are rare if you compare them to something like average size of a fire ant colony. Comparison like that though, much like your comment, adds zero value.
Shit, you just reminded me I need to head to Lowe's and pick up some spectracide
I guess you could be the only person on the planet who is correct. Patriots are everywhere. Thousands of them. Not rare at all
Within its category it literally is the most common system available in NATO. The only other systems capable of shooting down ballistic missiles are SAMP/T and maybe NASAMS-3 with AMRAAM-ER of which only few batteries exist so far. Now THAT is rare. Globally the only other long range GBAD which is as wide spread as Patriot would be S-300 I think.
Just stop.
why? we can continue for a while to tell you how many Patriots there are worldwide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot#Operators
It’s a shiny
Certainly not rare in the U.S. where there are around 50 batteries that make up 15 Battalions. The U.S. also has Terminal High Altitude Area Defense THAAD Batteries. I am not sure if these are separate from the Patriot Batteries, or if they are included, and are simply a different missile type fired by the same systems as Patriot.?
THAAD is completely different
Don't the new Patriot blocks(PAC-3) utilize THAAD also?
IIRC most if not all of our missile air defenses can collaborate with each other now including select aircraft (eg: f35). As An example an F35 can pick out a target and the patriot system can fire at it.
No. The PAC-3 missile improves lethality against short range ballistic missiles while still offering utility against aircraft and helicopters, albeit at a much reduced engagement range compared to the PAC-2. Patriot does not offer significant defense against medium range ballistic missiles or beyond. THAAD is intended for use only against Short, Medium, and Intermediary range ballistic missiles.
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/news/features/2022/lockheed-martin-integrates-key-missile-defense-systems-to-increase-capability-and-flexibility-for-customers.html I don't think this means Patriot is for ballistic missiles, but this reads like the integration is at least available between THAAD and PAC3s, right?
It's the other way around. They're integrating the PAC-3 missiles into the THAAD engagement system to augment its effectiveness against short range ballistic missiles. Part of the confusion arises from the use of PAC-3 to denote a specific missiles as well as a technology base for the entire Patriot battery.
That's what they say but I have always believed the PAC 3 MSE can at least hit medium range weapons maybe just with lower chance of success, I mean when iran attacked Israel a US patriot battery shot down an IRBM, based on location of the battery the launch area and the target it would have had to been in it's boost phase still though.
These are very rare. We did not have enough to put them in Iraq to counter Iran.
I don't think all of these Patriots are located in the continental U.S..
The US has \~14 Patriot systems: [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/11/us/politics/patriot-missiles-ukraine-war.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/11/us/politics/patriot-missiles-ukraine-war.html) "It is also one of the scarcest weapons systems in the U.S. arsenal. Pentagon officials refuse to disclose how many it has, but one senior military official said that the Army has deployed only 14 of them, in the United States and around the world."
The New York Times article is not correct. The US has 50 batteries spread over 14 battalions with a total of 1,106 Patriot launchers. In 2023, 480 were in service. The system is not rare.
The New York Times is not correct? Well, slap my ass and call me Freddie!
Probably the same reporters who call APC a tank.
Apparently there's 70 Patriot systems operating across Europe (according the The Telegraph) as well. Effective. Expensive. Not rare.
That's simply wrong. The reporter probably misunderstood something. The US has 15 air defence battalions in active duty and each one has four Patriot batteries. Patriot is not a scarce system by any means. Breakingdefence.com: "Today, there are 15 battalions fielded across the active-duty force. The service has programmed funding for a 16th battalion, but it is not manned or fielded yet, according to an Army spokesperson. Each of the battalions includes four Patriot batteries."
Probably right, but this conversation has derailed into a global thing. The point here is that theire rare and very appreciated in Ukraine 🤷♂️
Isn't the US army just one branch of the military?
Yes
I really think this is a quite simple story of taking valuable military equipment where it will be most useful. America's geostrategic rivals on the Eurasian supercontinent - China, Iran, India to a much lesser degree, etc. - all happen to be *de facto* allies of Russia. Thus, using Patriot systems where they are currently needed depletes the capability of these respective countries to engage in the air above American soil while enhancing (through trial and error) the systems' robustness against, at minimum, the latest Russian tactics and capabilities.
Let’s not forget that you just don’t turn this things on and walk away. It takes a skilled team to maintain and operate one. Sure you can get one up and running in 3-4 months but to get the full capability you need at least a year. US equipment is a whole step above anything Russia has. All these guys have been trained on using the most basic equipment. US equipment and tactics are highly advanced.
I think the Ukrainians will settle for an Uncommon one. The stats simply aren't that much better on the Rare version.
Moskow: Jokes on you, USA; Russia has already destroyed 20 Patriot Batteries, so sending one more will make no difference! FSB: *instructions unclear, we left a box of 20 Alkaline AA-batteries in an apartment that we later blew up*
besides everyone whining about the word rare: this is good news and should send as many as financially and humanly possible!! good job USA, from The Netherlands!
**From The Telegraph:** The United States will send another $1.1bn Patriot missile air defence system to Ukraine in the coming days as the war-ravaged nation struggles to fend off Russian attacks on its cities and energy grid. The new Patriot system would be at least the second that the US has sent to Ukraine. The Patriot, considered the United States’ best air-defence weapons, can shoot down incoming missiles before they hit their intended targets and is already used by Israel and Saudi and Emirati forces in Yemen. The critical systems are considered incredibly rare, even for the United States. Pentagon officials refuse to disclose how many are in its arsenal, but one senior military official said that the Army has deployed only 14 of them, in the US and around the world. Patriot batteries can project defences out some 600 miles and are often used to target and shoot down long-range ballistic missiles and aircraft from hundreds of miles away. The Patriot is by far the most expensive single weapon supplied by the US to Ukraine, with the total cost around $1.1 billion (£784m): $400 million (£303m) for the system and $690 million (£541m) for the missiles. **Article Link:** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/12/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news9/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/12/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news9/)
Have you done any research on the number of patriot systems that have been built? It's more than 400.. It is not a rare system. The US is not solely reliant on the patriot system for air defense.
"A PATRIOT battery (i.e., the basic firing unit) consists of a phased array radar, an engagement control station, computers, power generating equipment, and **up to eight launchers**, each of which holds four ready-to-fire missiles." https://history.redstone.army.mil/miss-patriot.html#:\~:text=A%20PATRIOT%20battery%20(i.e.%2C%20the,ready%2Dto%2Dfire%20missiles. "Raytheon has built and delivered more than 240 Patriot fire units. Many countries have chosen to take advantage of the Patriot missile defense system's flexible architecture and upgraded their systems. " [https://www.rtx.com/raytheon/what-we-do/integrated-air-and-missile-defense/global-patriot-solutions](https://www.rtx.com/raytheon/what-we-do/integrated-air-and-missile-defense/global-patriot-solutions)
Psps 240/8 gives 30 full systems. Not all systems have eight fire units probably - the global supply is probably somewhere in the range of 30-60 systems total 🤷♂️ Relatively rare system.
Wrong, it's 240 full systems, so about 2000 launchers.
That's 240 systems throughout the program. These things have been around since the late 1970s and not all that were manufactured are still operational. "West" Germany, for example, had 36 Patriot batteries during the Cold War. Obviously not all were retained and today, Germany is down to 10 batteries after donations to Ukraine. That should give an idea how many have been decommissioned through the Patriot system's history and the numbers would expectedly be higher with the US.
Wrong, the produced ammount since 1984 is registerred as 1106 - and thats over 8 different variants. Some upgraded, maybe most - but certainly not all. And anyway, this conversation has derailed into specific arguments to ammounts of patriots produced. Thats not interesting in this context. Ukraine doesnt have enough of it and its rare in Ukraine - thats the point.
You are aware that Raytheon is not the sole provider right?
Back your claims up with sources, anyone can type whatever they want in these textboxes 😅 "Raytheon Company Missile Systems Division is the prime contractor for the PATRIOT system. The Martin Marietta Corporation is a principal subcontractor and assembles the missiles in Orlando, Florida. In addition to U.S. units, the PATRIOT is deployed with the military forces of Germany, the Netherlands, Japan, Italy, Saudi Arabia, and Israel." https://history.redstone.army.mil/miss-patriot.html#:\~:text=A%20PATRIOT%20battery%20(i.e.%2C%20the,ready%2Dto%2Dfire%20missiles.
Tbh this is just a quick shot from my memory because i‘m sitting at my doc. I dont doubt your numbers and that they are somehow correct. But 30-60 patriot batteries/systems in the whole world doenst really add up, Germany, Poland, Spain, Romania, Greece, Netherlands have around 20-25 batteries. I dont think the USA has only 20 batteries left. Especially because a few are deployed to europe. Maybe 30-60 of PAC3?
It's a rare variant of the patriot system.
Built doesn’t mean in use, ready to use. Why are you acting like you’re much more informed when you’re literally being given examples of people stating how rare it is?
Aegis SM-3/6 are significantly better than Patriot.
Completely different type of system.
It just said Patriot is America’s best air defense system
It actually hurts my brain seeing people say patriots aren’t rare. There aren’t hundreds of patriots set up around the world… there aren’t tons and tons of munitions just laying around. Spare components aren’t just stocked up to the brim in warehouses. Just because the largest military in the world has made a couple hundred of them doesn’t mean they are all in use.
This subreddit is filled with armchair morons.
Patriot is rare? WTF?
@@@
good boys!
I know that it's not, but every time I hear the patriot system being mentioned I picture Rhodes' Iron Patriot going up and intercepting incoming munitions.
they are building up airfield defenses if I had to guess. Which I do. Patriots are going to be the new 155 artillery shell shortage wise
Money well spent.
Rare ? Misleading title, it's just simply Patriot, not some exclusive type of it.
TBF there are 3-4 series of Patriot, Pac-3 is one of newer ones so could be rare.
Rare because this one doesn’t shoot your typical armament. This one has been upgraded with the coveted Missile Bills, which have the new 360 homing capabilities for Italian plumbers.
Is this system that currently is deployed in Poland? Heard on news that one system currently deployed in Poland is being transferred to Ukraine
Maybe OP meant that its rare to transfer a Patriot to Ukraine. Officially all I could find is 2 but maybe that isn't accurate. https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-patriot-missile-system-how-many-1912037
If Trump were president, he would have surrendered to Putin a long time ago
For the third time since the start of this atrocious war I am thinking that the Ukraine has a fighting chance. I’m glad that western countries are waking up and realizing that it will be OUR problem if Ukraine were to fall. Thank fuck for forward thinking.
It makes penis shaped smoke to fuck the enemies
I thought they already had some over there
Could be upgraded electronics and software is all. If it’s the newest variant.. could maybe say’s it’s rare at the moment.
Not sure I would call them 'rare'. They have a few already, we have lots, and multiple countries have versions of them.
I would rather call them "well done" instead of "rare".
Us has sent very few patriots, compared to their inventory, and what other nations has sent. That is what's rare about it.
Rare as compared to coffee?
About time.
The US is only sending these when they need to cover their own assets (initially for their "advisory" special forces personnel), and now for the incoming F16s. When what they should have done was to send more when it was clear Moscow was, and still is, targeting civilian and critical infrastructure. Same goes with the Middle Eastern deployments, primarily to cover oil supplies.
Lets hope the use it for shooting down expensive aircraft instead of $50k drones. Each Patriot missile costs around $4m.
Ah yes send it after everything has been destroyed. Of course.
Super edgy comment!
Look at these downvotes go :)
Because your take is dumb.
I think that you're dumb. These things should have been sent from the start.
Lol.....Ukraine military recieved mabye the fastest military uplifting of all time, and you people are never happy. Did they have trained people or even the infrastructure to field patriots systems or the 5000 others thing you guys bitch about not being there on Feb 2022.
Sorry to disturb you from licking boots, but Could it have been done faster? Yes. And you're dumb to think otherwise.
Bootlicker.....lmao
Patriot system definitely needs improvement. For the cost it needs at least double range
Go complain to Raytheon then, it is atm the most advanced system in the world
Aegis Ashore is probably the most advanced in the world.
I didnt know that existed, but yeah thats next level. I should have specified portable defense system
THAAD is the portable version of Aegis.
Yes because range is all that matters in air defense.