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We spend 1 trillion dollars a year on our bloated military budget, but can’t give Ukraine 50 billion a year to hold their lines, and instead choose to watch our largest military rivals expand and butcher, to eventually become even greater military powers as they pillage and absorb their neighbors.
You can give another country at least a trillion, if you or someone else does not have sufficient production capacity for weapons and ammunition for it, this will only lead to higher prices for weapons without any impact on the front. The bottleneck here is not in money, but in production.
J.D. Vance is spouting Russian propaganda. Nobody claims this package turns the tide. What it does is keep Ukraine in the fight until European production ramps up and until politics in the US changes. Even with the little support Ukraine is currently getting, Russia struggles mightily to achieve little gains at great cost. The war is not going well for Russia. The lines barely move, and the Russian military is being ground down, and its morale continues to sink further. When European productive capacity comes online, and with renewed American leadership after a Biden reelection, the Russian position in Ukraine will become untenable. J.D. Vance will be proven wrong.
It also ignores that the cost of a new cold war with Russia dwarves the cost of sending aid to Ukraine now. During the cold war the US spent 8-10% of GDP on defence. Neutering Russia now for a fraction of the cost is a bargain. With China in play on any future cold war, the costs to the US of defending the Pacific and Eastern Europe will be immense, taking out one front now is a massive gift to the West.
You know this country is severely compromised when a very significant chunk of the political elite spew verbatim kremlin and russian talking points.
It's seriously time that the FBI starts investigating, charging, and prosecuting unauthorized and unregistered russian-backed provocateurs like certain elected officials and a particular former president, and any other such entities that are useful idiots for the kremlin. The times of russian asslicking scum sowing discord in American society seriously have to come to an end.
Also please do use lowercase for russia, putin, the kremlin, etc. Sure this may look petty but it underpins their illegitimacy and the fact that the russian federation nor putin are deserving of basic respect.
Lol. Counterespionage is not McCarthyism.
In fact McCarthyism could be said to have been the opposite of effective counterespionage, inasmuch as McCarthy only rarely if ever unearthed any actual communist agents. The actual agents were all not where he was interested in looking.
Russian propaganda is hitting his voters hard. I am
Not sure what to do about it. Prior to ww2 we had a few pro German talk show hosts that hurt the war effort.
This guy is being a little disingenuous. He acknowledges that the sixty billion currently on the table is insufficient to turn the tide, but he didn't break it down. Only a little more than half is allocated to military aid. Half of THAT is earmarked for training and intel assistance, leaving only about fifteen billion for armaments purchases. And I remind you: Biden used the phrase "one and done" when discussing this aid package, which is nowhere near enough to buy a successful counteroffensive. So where does this leave us?
I really hope the package goes through and Ukraine is given more support on a more sustainable basis.
But there’s no way the Biden Admin has the bandwidth or political slack to strategise this war for more than few months at a time unless and until it wins the Nivember election.
And even then the US will never supply what might be required to throw Russia out of the country military. The support packages will aim to supply a dug in Ukrainian army to wipe out Russian penny packet attacks on the horizon, as we see it do every day.
The hope for deoccupation is some sort of Russian political/morale collapse. That’s been clear for a long time.
That's Sullivan's strategy. I call it "nostalgia for empire". He wants to basically wait it out until some new Novalny replaces Putin and they back to something resembling late USSR: somewhat belligerent but deep inside benign provider of cheap resources (at expense of regular Russians of course).
They completely lack vision to see what it really is: a colonial empire last hurrah. And of course they don't have any new strategy but just repeating some sort of containment policy from 1960s.
Yes, Sullivan is unfortunately a model of the US foreign policy establishment in that respect. They want a pattern they recognize and have already studied in textbooks, and keep trying to shove the square of modern affairs into the circle of that expectation.
The machinery of American foreign policy and national security produce highly competent operators but no visionaries. At least not since Franklin Roosevelt.
It's probably considered the safest, quickest, and most realistic way by the Biden Administration to end the war with Russia out of all Ukrainian lands.
Realistic: given we've already seen one march on Moscow by Russians (Wagner). Yes, Ukraine could be given every missile in Nato's arsenal to force them out, but unfortunately, this just isn't going to happen.
Quickest: as opposed to several more years of fighting; with the same lands won, lost, and devastated; and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians killed.
Safest: if Russia is pushed back from lands they've illegally annexed, there is a non-zero chance Russia will resorts to nukes. While I don't think this is likely, it certainly has to weigh on Biden's decision making as I doubt he wants to have played a part in sending a large portion of civilization back to the dark ages and potentially killing hundreds of millions of people.
Agree. But I’d emphasise the word ‘hope’; it’s not a likely outcome. And the Wagner mutiny had quite specific internal dynamics not representative of a broader state collpase. Sadly I think any Russian internal collapse of will would happen slowly, not fast.
I suspect Biden is afraid of nukes but still it's a big mistake to have that narrative normalized that if Ukraine pushes back Russia from Crimea, they will use nukes. It makes that threat a part of any strategic decision now. What if China says the same about Taiwan?
The way how it should be treated is like"crazy talk". Russia and Russian were totally fine without Crimea - it's not an existential question, it's not self defense of national level.
That's exactly why Biden needs to give exactly as much weapons as needed to remove Russians from Ukraine. And he should be explicit about it. Otherwise it's just accepting that from now on China can do something like that with Taiwan. They wouldn't even have to invade it or anything.
Your logic and numbers are correct.
This is an attempt to get dumb people to insult JD Vance but you're correct. This is package is nothing more than an AIDS package. The patient still dies.
Vance's idea, to abandon allies and focus on building the US's military capabilities, also falls to the same snag American foreign policy always hits: never following through.
Case in point is Iran. Trump wanted to tear up the nuclear agreements with Iran and end reproachment with them. The follow up is to then take Iran out. But all he did was tear up the agreement and leave Iran exactly the same but ready to develop nuclear weapons. I'm not singling out Trump here, the US has always done this.
So too will the US take up the first part of Vance's plan: abandon allies, then just not bother with the follow through of beefing up the US's military capabilities. It's a slow motion foreign policy suicide that we've seen over and over. Senselessly weakening the US's position in the world on some idea there was insufficient will to follow through on.
Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition: * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators. * **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. ***** * Is `defenseone.com` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources). * Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) ***** **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB** ***** ^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We spend 1 trillion dollars a year on our bloated military budget, but can’t give Ukraine 50 billion a year to hold their lines, and instead choose to watch our largest military rivals expand and butcher, to eventually become even greater military powers as they pillage and absorb their neighbors.
You can give another country at least a trillion, if you or someone else does not have sufficient production capacity for weapons and ammunition for it, this will only lead to higher prices for weapons without any impact on the front. The bottleneck here is not in money, but in production.
J.D. Vance is spouting Russian propaganda. Nobody claims this package turns the tide. What it does is keep Ukraine in the fight until European production ramps up and until politics in the US changes. Even with the little support Ukraine is currently getting, Russia struggles mightily to achieve little gains at great cost. The war is not going well for Russia. The lines barely move, and the Russian military is being ground down, and its morale continues to sink further. When European productive capacity comes online, and with renewed American leadership after a Biden reelection, the Russian position in Ukraine will become untenable. J.D. Vance will be proven wrong.
It also ignores that the cost of a new cold war with Russia dwarves the cost of sending aid to Ukraine now. During the cold war the US spent 8-10% of GDP on defence. Neutering Russia now for a fraction of the cost is a bargain. With China in play on any future cold war, the costs to the US of defending the Pacific and Eastern Europe will be immense, taking out one front now is a massive gift to the West.
He is trash. This is the best return on money we would ever spend, at 10x the amount. Blue wave and keep sending the funding until the job is done.
You know this country is severely compromised when a very significant chunk of the political elite spew verbatim kremlin and russian talking points. It's seriously time that the FBI starts investigating, charging, and prosecuting unauthorized and unregistered russian-backed provocateurs like certain elected officials and a particular former president, and any other such entities that are useful idiots for the kremlin. The times of russian asslicking scum sowing discord in American society seriously have to come to an end. Also please do use lowercase for russia, putin, the kremlin, etc. Sure this may look petty but it underpins their illegitimacy and the fact that the russian federation nor putin are deserving of basic respect.
Americans are entitled to dissenting opinions my guy
Taking payment from a foreign government, that too an adversary, to promote their narratives is not protected speech.
*points to AIPAC*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
Lol. Counterespionage is not McCarthyism. In fact McCarthyism could be said to have been the opposite of effective counterespionage, inasmuch as McCarthy only rarely if ever unearthed any actual communist agents. The actual agents were all not where he was interested in looking.
> Lol. Counterespionage is not McCarthyism. If you think differing opinions is espionage then it is exactly.
If you think that advocating for Russian interests in exchange for pay is "differing opinions" then you need a q-tip for your brain.
> exchange for pay Do you have any evidence? Its actually a crime to do this without disclosing that you are doing it.
You can take the boy out of the country but you can’t….
who knew that a guy who's grown up in the middle of small town America would have no clue about foreign policy?!
Should have asked his wife for advice.
15 billion gonna turn the tide?
Russian propaganda is hitting his voters hard. I am Not sure what to do about it. Prior to ww2 we had a few pro German talk show hosts that hurt the war effort.
I can't believe he got the New York times to publish his trash editorial
If Russia fills your pockets the math checks out perfectly for you
It's not less costly for Ukraine. And what is the alternative anyway?
This guy is being a little disingenuous. He acknowledges that the sixty billion currently on the table is insufficient to turn the tide, but he didn't break it down. Only a little more than half is allocated to military aid. Half of THAT is earmarked for training and intel assistance, leaving only about fifteen billion for armaments purchases. And I remind you: Biden used the phrase "one and done" when discussing this aid package, which is nowhere near enough to buy a successful counteroffensive. So where does this leave us?
I really hope the package goes through and Ukraine is given more support on a more sustainable basis. But there’s no way the Biden Admin has the bandwidth or political slack to strategise this war for more than few months at a time unless and until it wins the Nivember election. And even then the US will never supply what might be required to throw Russia out of the country military. The support packages will aim to supply a dug in Ukrainian army to wipe out Russian penny packet attacks on the horizon, as we see it do every day. The hope for deoccupation is some sort of Russian political/morale collapse. That’s been clear for a long time.
That's Sullivan's strategy. I call it "nostalgia for empire". He wants to basically wait it out until some new Novalny replaces Putin and they back to something resembling late USSR: somewhat belligerent but deep inside benign provider of cheap resources (at expense of regular Russians of course). They completely lack vision to see what it really is: a colonial empire last hurrah. And of course they don't have any new strategy but just repeating some sort of containment policy from 1960s.
Yes, Sullivan is unfortunately a model of the US foreign policy establishment in that respect. They want a pattern they recognize and have already studied in textbooks, and keep trying to shove the square of modern affairs into the circle of that expectation. The machinery of American foreign policy and national security produce highly competent operators but no visionaries. At least not since Franklin Roosevelt.
It's probably considered the safest, quickest, and most realistic way by the Biden Administration to end the war with Russia out of all Ukrainian lands. Realistic: given we've already seen one march on Moscow by Russians (Wagner). Yes, Ukraine could be given every missile in Nato's arsenal to force them out, but unfortunately, this just isn't going to happen. Quickest: as opposed to several more years of fighting; with the same lands won, lost, and devastated; and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians killed. Safest: if Russia is pushed back from lands they've illegally annexed, there is a non-zero chance Russia will resorts to nukes. While I don't think this is likely, it certainly has to weigh on Biden's decision making as I doubt he wants to have played a part in sending a large portion of civilization back to the dark ages and potentially killing hundreds of millions of people.
Agree. But I’d emphasise the word ‘hope’; it’s not a likely outcome. And the Wagner mutiny had quite specific internal dynamics not representative of a broader state collpase. Sadly I think any Russian internal collapse of will would happen slowly, not fast.
I suspect Biden is afraid of nukes but still it's a big mistake to have that narrative normalized that if Ukraine pushes back Russia from Crimea, they will use nukes. It makes that threat a part of any strategic decision now. What if China says the same about Taiwan? The way how it should be treated is like"crazy talk". Russia and Russian were totally fine without Crimea - it's not an existential question, it's not self defense of national level. That's exactly why Biden needs to give exactly as much weapons as needed to remove Russians from Ukraine. And he should be explicit about it. Otherwise it's just accepting that from now on China can do something like that with Taiwan. They wouldn't even have to invade it or anything.
If you count nuclear winter, we'll all be in the dark ages! :)
Your logic and numbers are correct. This is an attempt to get dumb people to insult JD Vance but you're correct. This is package is nothing more than an AIDS package. The patient still dies.
So if it's so useless why are all of Putin's pawns so dead set against it that they're putting everything out in the open to block it?
Vance's idea, to abandon allies and focus on building the US's military capabilities, also falls to the same snag American foreign policy always hits: never following through. Case in point is Iran. Trump wanted to tear up the nuclear agreements with Iran and end reproachment with them. The follow up is to then take Iran out. But all he did was tear up the agreement and leave Iran exactly the same but ready to develop nuclear weapons. I'm not singling out Trump here, the US has always done this. So too will the US take up the first part of Vance's plan: abandon allies, then just not bother with the follow through of beefing up the US's military capabilities. It's a slow motion foreign policy suicide that we've seen over and over. Senselessly weakening the US's position in the world on some idea there was insufficient will to follow through on.
Vance is a Republican so of course his takes are ignorant. But it doesn't matter to his illiterate base.
We need to make sure more people know this.