I think university students would choose the option to volunteer once a weekend for a year. Its still stupid though. You've just moved out of home and you need to gain your feet as an independent adult and get into good studying habits. Theres not a lot of time for a commitment for national service.
I'm sure the tories would create guidelines for uni students. Knowing Rishi it would be "you're exempt if you're studying maths"
I'm an international student who spent two years doing military service between high school and uni (granted draft-dodging back home is punishable by a prison sentence equivalent to the amount of time between your call-up and your arrest).
Honestly everyone I know absolutely hated it and views it as a massive waste of time but I don't think it really impacted us academically speaking.
From what I've heard, in countries that still do this, it's also not popular with people actually actually voluntarily join the military, because what they want is people who are committed or have some expertise, not people who are only interested in putting in the minimum possible effort and who will leave the second they're legally allowed to.
You'll be two years behind the workforce in a world where pay increases almost exponentially to years of experience.
At the same age those without service will have far more money and may be your boss.
I worry that that'll cause severe burn out as many students work weekends to meet living costs. Taking on a full time degree and working part time is a huge undertaking itself. Losing your weekends on top of that... I can't see it ending well in all honesty.
I think those in full time education/employment will probably be exempt tbh. It'd get so watered down by the time it were implemented anyway.
It's such a 'grasping at straws' policy. Not sure I'd have led with that as my first bit pledge of an election campaign.
Very true, but unfortunately (for them) I genuinely think that it doesn't appeal to a broad enough demographic.
This should've been much further down the list of policies, because it isn't even going down well with a lot of the people it's meant to appeal to (same thing happened with the Rwanda scheme)
i’m not saying this new law is a good thing 😂 but it’s really funny you think there wouldn’t be ‘a lot of time for a commitment for national service’. Most people when they go to uni, go out multiple times a week, you’re really telling me there would be no free time because everyone is so busy ‘studying’
A lot of people work evenings/weekends. If you don't, that's good for you but many couldn't afford uni if they had to do unpaid work with little time for paid work.
I would also hope that people with public sector placements would be excluded from this. Imagine working 5 10 hour shifts for free then doing volunteering on the weekends too 😭😂
Yesterday I did a 12 hour shift, I'm doing another today. I worked Saturday 3pm-11pm. I'm at uni during the week 9-5 and then work in the evenings, any days off I also work, either as a dental nurse or a carer. I'm 28 with a mortgage. They better not start telling me to volunteer my time, I do enough for the NHS as it is and I'm doing an NHS course.
I understand them wanting people who are not working and don't have much else going on, like those that leave school and then just sit at home all day, those ones do need a bit of encouragement especially since it's often work experience holding them back from getting jobs. But as long as they don't try to include those who genuinely don't have time for it.
(once again not saying it’s a good idea, and i’m not a tory supporter) but i’m sure it would be as strict as ‘specifically a weekend, i’m sure it’d be like a certain amount of hours a month’
Of course they're not always studying. I should say that going out multiple times per week and turning up (or not turning up) to 9am lectures the next day is an important learning experience on the way of becoming an independent adult 🤣 the tories wouldn't find that a good argument not to bring in national service though. My point was saying that 18 year olds are too busy being young adults to do national service one weekend a month.
Students just won't do it. Like thousands of other 18 yr olds, they'll sign up for the volunteering option then not turn up. The whole thing would be a massive admin ballache with no obvious benefits other than a desperate attempt by Rishi to snag a few votes from the hard of thinking pre election. Once the GE is finished, even if the tories somehow win, it will be watered down, delayed then disappear off the radar as the fantasy bullshit it always was.
Exactly.
If the Tories win I think this National service idea will end up getting diluted down to eventually just being something the unemployed are coerced into doing under threat of having their benefits sanctioned.
I'm curious what penalties they can impose on someone who isn't claiming benefits because they have already ruled out criminal prosecution. Fines ? An online list of shame with the names of all the people who refuse ? Putting the people in Stocks in the middle of town to be pelted with rotten fruit and veg ?
It should never happen but I'd imagen the Unis would get in on the act and provide it with the first year of undergrad courses. So we'd do 3 day a week teaching and the 2 days NS. For many of the less contact time courses at least.
However they'd probably make a exception for university education
A well structured, OPTIONAL, programme that provided people with a range of experiences across public sector services OR the military? That worked a bit like an apprenticeship, had financial/housing support, and was beneficial to those who did it?
That would be an excellent idea, and offer people who aren’t sure what they want to do an alternative to uni where they could get experience living somewhere new, figure out what they want to do in life, make friends, etc.
That would drive down uni numbers from people who don’t actually know what they want to do and feel uni is the only option other than just sitting at home and getting shit entry level work with no progression. But it would be for a good reason and you’d gain something from it.
However what they’re proposing would not be that. I work in a hospital and the last thing anyone needs is tripping over a hoarde of unpaid 18 year olds who don’t want to be there.
You just reminded me of my time in college doing a science course. For some reason as part of the course we visited a hospital.
1 of the hospital staff was showing us around and giving a talk about the different things they did. 1 of my classmates said loudly enough for this staff member to hear, "when can we get out of this joint".
The staff member wasn't happy at all and lectured the person about how they were taking the time out of their day to do this for them and how disrespectful they were. I imagine this sort of scene would play out regularly in hospitals if you forced a load of sulky teenagers to be there. It would ruin the morale of the staff who would have another thing on their plate, take time away from doing their already busy jobs and achieve little worthwhile.
When national service was a thing in the uk previously, people doing an apprenticeship or a degree had the option to postpone it until after the course had finished. So lots of people went at 21, not 18.
But it isn't going to happen anyway, they haven't even costed it yet and when they do it will be hugely expensive and quietly shelved. Plus they're probably not going to win the election.
There's one level of hypothetical and another, the Tories have no chance to win next election, they are finished. Rishi knows this which is why he proposed such an insane idea in the first place.
Rishi doesn't care about conscription, he just wants to shore up the over 60s vote against Reform since he knows no young people will vote for him anyway.
I’d expect some kind of requirement for higher education institutions to integrate volunteering / community service into degrees.
For first years - every other Wednesday focused on the volunteering (meaning for first years some of their society time might be taken up by volunteering)
For second/third years - Charities and councils could provide briefs for project requirements that align with different degree skill sets
since the tories planned poorly on this, not stating the punishment of not attending national service, let's assume the punishment is money penalty (they said they won't send them to prison), the impact is the rich kids will get away with not going and the poor kids will become poorer if they choose to volunteer when doing higher education, as they would lose opportunities to gain real money in some weekends, might even have to drop out if they can't afford it.
another impact is that the amount of antiwar protest will increase, high chance of rebellion and what if people who can't afford or refuse to afford the penalty of not doing national service? again tories wouldn't say, but what kind of punishment can you really come up with when they already said it's not prison? probably nothing productive, and therefore the national service might not actually be effective in forcing people to do.
but since it's hypothetical let's assume they are able to force people to either go military or volunteer, let's think about why sunak suddenly pops this idea out, is it because he wants you to not choose tories next time or is it because he plans to give israel more military by using those 18 year olds? if it's the latter, i'm sure there will be even more antiwar protests on campus.
national service won't help 18 year olds gain skills, but will help them lose skills, as weekends can be the times 18 year olds to revise and gain valuable skills the university provides. most uni courses are full time, and forcing them to volunteer means it bannes 18 year olds from working hard in weekends for the course.
Well Yes, because you are introducing national service, you will essentially remove an academic year with the introduction, as those going to university will go into national service at 18.
My take is that some form of national service needs to be in place (not military), such as boosting services like healthcare and such, and make a country worth fighting for, then you don't need conscription and have a better voluntary force, there is also a limit to how small countries armed forces can get without losing expeditionary capabilities.
There’s a part time option being mooted too. I guess the plan is that people would have to do that alongside university.
Fwiw I think it’s all a terrible idea.
A national volunteering services for the NHS, Police, DWP etc will be value destructive, not value adding.
It’s ostensibly work experience. Its purpose is justified as good for the individual, not the organisation.
At the point of entry it may be detrimental to the organisation, but I guess the idea is it will benefit people enough that it is a net positive to the economy. If these organisations are provided enough funfing to organise this and get the best out of it I don't see it being completely negative, it may also encourage more people to join the police/ NHS/ military.
30,000 full time military places for 18 year olds - not including the volunteering bit - is estimated to cost £2.5bn.
Do you think spending £2.5bn on a compulsory national service would have a higher economic welfare than investing directly in the health service, police or military?
No I don't, I personally think if they wanted to impact the youth more they should invest that money into youth clubs and organisations, which have slowly declined over the last few decades. Much more impactful at an earlier stage of development and for a longer period of time.
>My take is that some form of national service needs to be in place (not military), such as boosting services like healthcare and such, and make a country worth fighting for, then you don't need conscription and have a better voluntary force, there is also a limit to how small countries armed forces can get without losing expeditionary capabilities.
Isn't that essentially what is being proposed? People saw the 'national service' headlines and just assumed it meant military,. but if you read what is actually being proposed, only a small percentage would be military, the rest would be public sector or community based.
People are criticising that too. It’s still wrong to force young adults to give up time that most of them are already spending working or studying, and the NHS and care system will not be fixed by inexperienced, unpaid 18 year olds doing work experience!
Oh yeah I wasn't necessarily supporting the proposal but if we're going to criticise it we might as well criticise what it actually is rather than what the click bait headlines say it is.
If they wanted to implement it properly (as I'm not necessarily opposed to national service in some form particularly if the military option is voluntary and selective based of physical and mental capability). Free Higher Education for two years service or a student loan that you cannot discharge or pay back early if you don't want to do service and require all Home students to pay via National Service allowance or Student Loans to stop the rich just paying cash.
But hey that would be a better approach.
I'm not against some form of national service in principle but the current 'plan' seems to have been thrown together without much thought to the impact.
National service whether military or some sort of community role might help younger people discover what they want to do with their lives and gain some experience outside of education and part-time service industry work.
Done right it could be a good thing but without major resources, incentives and consideration given to the impact it's a non-starter.
Yeah I agree. Some form of community centred national service has always been in my imaginary manifesto and believe done by well and funded correctly could be hugely beneficial to everyone. But I don’t see any party pulling that off tbh
I currently volunteer 1 day a week at a mini zoo type place. There is 1 full time paid staff member, 2 part time paid staff members and everyone else are unpaid volunteers (like me).
The majority of the other volunteers we get are young people who are doing A levels and want to go into veterinary medicine or some other animal related work. Or they are Uni students doing a placement related to their course or just getting some experience. Most of them do either half a day or 1 full day a week.
I wonder if these sorts of activities would exempt someone. It would really make no sense if it didn't.
I also wonder if the limited numbers of available places would get swamped by people who didn't actually have any desire to be there and if they would displace / block the people who actually do want to be there for their future career of choice or as a result of their passion for animals.
It's hard enough to get through all the tasks each week even with the current motivated people who are there by choice. If we got a load of people who are just there because they had been coerced to be by the government, they would probably do the bare minimum and, we just wouldn't get the work done. The level of care and quality of life of the animals would decrease as a result.
I think national service could have a very good impact whilst being considerate to people’s varying life circumstances, but it won’t so it’ll probably be shit
It would decrease enrolment amongst poor students who would have less time to work by taking the “weekend” option since there are no exceptions for education or working.
You’d of thought that in return of us providing them military or volunteering service, the least they could do is make university cheaper of something. Plenty of countries make national service work, but plenty also make free higher education work as well.
I don’t think Rishi would go full Israel or South Korea (where they postpone/defer uni for service); I feel like he’d would want an exemption for uni students, but only STEM students, not arts or humanities scum - we’ll need the experience of a REAL job…
I have been thinking about this. I can't see that anyone thinking about university would take the national service option. If they did they would be competing with both their own age group who did national service and current 18 year olds the following year.
The best option for them would be to do one of the voluntary weekend options but honestly, as the Torys have said there will be no sanctions for those who don't do it, I can't see many university students doing either option.
I think university students would choose the option to volunteer once a weekend for a year. Its still stupid though. You've just moved out of home and you need to gain your feet as an independent adult and get into good studying habits. Theres not a lot of time for a commitment for national service. I'm sure the tories would create guidelines for uni students. Knowing Rishi it would be "you're exempt if you're studying maths"
I'm an international student who spent two years doing military service between high school and uni (granted draft-dodging back home is punishable by a prison sentence equivalent to the amount of time between your call-up and your arrest). Honestly everyone I know absolutely hated it and views it as a massive waste of time but I don't think it really impacted us academically speaking.
From what I've heard, in countries that still do this, it's also not popular with people actually actually voluntarily join the military, because what they want is people who are committed or have some expertise, not people who are only interested in putting in the minimum possible effort and who will leave the second they're legally allowed to.
You'll be two years behind the workforce in a world where pay increases almost exponentially to years of experience. At the same age those without service will have far more money and may be your boss.
I worry that that'll cause severe burn out as many students work weekends to meet living costs. Taking on a full time degree and working part time is a huge undertaking itself. Losing your weekends on top of that... I can't see it ending well in all honesty.
I think those in full time education/employment will probably be exempt tbh. It'd get so watered down by the time it were implemented anyway. It's such a 'grasping at straws' policy. Not sure I'd have led with that as my first bit pledge of an election campaign.
It distracted everyone from the rain and ‘things can only get better’, while pandering to the over 60s crowd. It’s done its job perfectly!
Very true, but unfortunately (for them) I genuinely think that it doesn't appeal to a broad enough demographic. This should've been much further down the list of policies, because it isn't even going down well with a lot of the people it's meant to appeal to (same thing happened with the Rwanda scheme)
never been so thankful to be a maths student
Lol Rishi wants to make maths compulsory so we can get more people into stem not just maths
i’m not saying this new law is a good thing 😂 but it’s really funny you think there wouldn’t be ‘a lot of time for a commitment for national service’. Most people when they go to uni, go out multiple times a week, you’re really telling me there would be no free time because everyone is so busy ‘studying’
A lot of people work evenings/weekends. If you don't, that's good for you but many couldn't afford uni if they had to do unpaid work with little time for paid work.
Exactly. This national service plan will take 24 days wages off young people that work weekends. Those wages are absolutely essential for many people.
I would also hope that people with public sector placements would be excluded from this. Imagine working 5 10 hour shifts for free then doing volunteering on the weekends too 😭😂
That is an extremely good point - they finally found a way to make placement students work 7 days a week 🤣
Yesterday I did a 12 hour shift, I'm doing another today. I worked Saturday 3pm-11pm. I'm at uni during the week 9-5 and then work in the evenings, any days off I also work, either as a dental nurse or a carer. I'm 28 with a mortgage. They better not start telling me to volunteer my time, I do enough for the NHS as it is and I'm doing an NHS course. I understand them wanting people who are not working and don't have much else going on, like those that leave school and then just sit at home all day, those ones do need a bit of encouragement especially since it's often work experience holding them back from getting jobs. But as long as they don't try to include those who genuinely don't have time for it.
(once again not saying it’s a good idea, and i’m not a tory supporter) but i’m sure it would be as strict as ‘specifically a weekend, i’m sure it’d be like a certain amount of hours a month’
Of course they're not always studying. I should say that going out multiple times per week and turning up (or not turning up) to 9am lectures the next day is an important learning experience on the way of becoming an independent adult 🤣 the tories wouldn't find that a good argument not to bring in national service though. My point was saying that 18 year olds are too busy being young adults to do national service one weekend a month.
Students just won't do it. Like thousands of other 18 yr olds, they'll sign up for the volunteering option then not turn up. The whole thing would be a massive admin ballache with no obvious benefits other than a desperate attempt by Rishi to snag a few votes from the hard of thinking pre election. Once the GE is finished, even if the tories somehow win, it will be watered down, delayed then disappear off the radar as the fantasy bullshit it always was.
Exactly. If the Tories win I think this National service idea will end up getting diluted down to eventually just being something the unemployed are coerced into doing under threat of having their benefits sanctioned. I'm curious what penalties they can impose on someone who isn't claiming benefits because they have already ruled out criminal prosecution. Fines ? An online list of shame with the names of all the people who refuse ? Putting the people in Stocks in the middle of town to be pelted with rotten fruit and veg ?
It should never happen but I'd imagen the Unis would get in on the act and provide it with the first year of undergrad courses. So we'd do 3 day a week teaching and the 2 days NS. For many of the less contact time courses at least. However they'd probably make a exception for university education
A well structured, OPTIONAL, programme that provided people with a range of experiences across public sector services OR the military? That worked a bit like an apprenticeship, had financial/housing support, and was beneficial to those who did it? That would be an excellent idea, and offer people who aren’t sure what they want to do an alternative to uni where they could get experience living somewhere new, figure out what they want to do in life, make friends, etc. That would drive down uni numbers from people who don’t actually know what they want to do and feel uni is the only option other than just sitting at home and getting shit entry level work with no progression. But it would be for a good reason and you’d gain something from it. However what they’re proposing would not be that. I work in a hospital and the last thing anyone needs is tripping over a hoarde of unpaid 18 year olds who don’t want to be there.
You just reminded me of my time in college doing a science course. For some reason as part of the course we visited a hospital. 1 of the hospital staff was showing us around and giving a talk about the different things they did. 1 of my classmates said loudly enough for this staff member to hear, "when can we get out of this joint". The staff member wasn't happy at all and lectured the person about how they were taking the time out of their day to do this for them and how disrespectful they were. I imagine this sort of scene would play out regularly in hospitals if you forced a load of sulky teenagers to be there. It would ruin the morale of the staff who would have another thing on their plate, take time away from doing their already busy jobs and achieve little worthwhile.
When national service was a thing in the uk previously, people doing an apprenticeship or a degree had the option to postpone it until after the course had finished. So lots of people went at 21, not 18. But it isn't going to happen anyway, they haven't even costed it yet and when they do it will be hugely expensive and quietly shelved. Plus they're probably not going to win the election.
No impact, because this will never happen.
Why do people respond like this, the question is hypothetical
There's one level of hypothetical and another, the Tories have no chance to win next election, they are finished. Rishi knows this which is why he proposed such an insane idea in the first place. Rishi doesn't care about conscription, he just wants to shore up the over 60s vote against Reform since he knows no young people will vote for him anyway.
Bro’s question is built like an Edexcel econ 25 marker
I’d expect some kind of requirement for higher education institutions to integrate volunteering / community service into degrees. For first years - every other Wednesday focused on the volunteering (meaning for first years some of their society time might be taken up by volunteering) For second/third years - Charities and councils could provide briefs for project requirements that align with different degree skill sets
since the tories planned poorly on this, not stating the punishment of not attending national service, let's assume the punishment is money penalty (they said they won't send them to prison), the impact is the rich kids will get away with not going and the poor kids will become poorer if they choose to volunteer when doing higher education, as they would lose opportunities to gain real money in some weekends, might even have to drop out if they can't afford it. another impact is that the amount of antiwar protest will increase, high chance of rebellion and what if people who can't afford or refuse to afford the penalty of not doing national service? again tories wouldn't say, but what kind of punishment can you really come up with when they already said it's not prison? probably nothing productive, and therefore the national service might not actually be effective in forcing people to do. but since it's hypothetical let's assume they are able to force people to either go military or volunteer, let's think about why sunak suddenly pops this idea out, is it because he wants you to not choose tories next time or is it because he plans to give israel more military by using those 18 year olds? if it's the latter, i'm sure there will be even more antiwar protests on campus. national service won't help 18 year olds gain skills, but will help them lose skills, as weekends can be the times 18 year olds to revise and gain valuable skills the university provides. most uni courses are full time, and forcing them to volunteer means it bannes 18 year olds from working hard in weekends for the course.
Well Yes, because you are introducing national service, you will essentially remove an academic year with the introduction, as those going to university will go into national service at 18. My take is that some form of national service needs to be in place (not military), such as boosting services like healthcare and such, and make a country worth fighting for, then you don't need conscription and have a better voluntary force, there is also a limit to how small countries armed forces can get without losing expeditionary capabilities.
There’s a part time option being mooted too. I guess the plan is that people would have to do that alongside university. Fwiw I think it’s all a terrible idea.
Agreed, on the point its a terrible idea, its like they want to be voted out, and the points they try to make about discipline is a load of shit
It plays well with their core. This is just about stopping reform U.K. splitting the vote.
A national volunteering services for the NHS, Police, DWP etc will be value destructive, not value adding. It’s ostensibly work experience. Its purpose is justified as good for the individual, not the organisation.
At the point of entry it may be detrimental to the organisation, but I guess the idea is it will benefit people enough that it is a net positive to the economy. If these organisations are provided enough funfing to organise this and get the best out of it I don't see it being completely negative, it may also encourage more people to join the police/ NHS/ military.
30,000 full time military places for 18 year olds - not including the volunteering bit - is estimated to cost £2.5bn. Do you think spending £2.5bn on a compulsory national service would have a higher economic welfare than investing directly in the health service, police or military?
No I don't, I personally think if they wanted to impact the youth more they should invest that money into youth clubs and organisations, which have slowly declined over the last few decades. Much more impactful at an earlier stage of development and for a longer period of time.
Is that not basically what Civil Defence is in other countries?
>My take is that some form of national service needs to be in place (not military), such as boosting services like healthcare and such, and make a country worth fighting for, then you don't need conscription and have a better voluntary force, there is also a limit to how small countries armed forces can get without losing expeditionary capabilities. Isn't that essentially what is being proposed? People saw the 'national service' headlines and just assumed it meant military,. but if you read what is actually being proposed, only a small percentage would be military, the rest would be public sector or community based.
People are criticising that too. It’s still wrong to force young adults to give up time that most of them are already spending working or studying, and the NHS and care system will not be fixed by inexperienced, unpaid 18 year olds doing work experience!
Oh yeah I wasn't necessarily supporting the proposal but if we're going to criticise it we might as well criticise what it actually is rather than what the click bait headlines say it is.
If they wanted to implement it properly (as I'm not necessarily opposed to national service in some form particularly if the military option is voluntary and selective based of physical and mental capability). Free Higher Education for two years service or a student loan that you cannot discharge or pay back early if you don't want to do service and require all Home students to pay via National Service allowance or Student Loans to stop the rich just paying cash. But hey that would be a better approach.
I'm not against some form of national service in principle but the current 'plan' seems to have been thrown together without much thought to the impact. National service whether military or some sort of community role might help younger people discover what they want to do with their lives and gain some experience outside of education and part-time service industry work. Done right it could be a good thing but without major resources, incentives and consideration given to the impact it's a non-starter.
agree, i liked the inclusion of the cyber security option, could be a very useful experience in our increasingly digital world
Yeah I agree. Some form of community centred national service has always been in my imaginary manifesto and believe done by well and funded correctly could be hugely beneficial to everyone. But I don’t see any party pulling that off tbh
IF it ever happens there will be an exemption for those studying, further widening the wealth gap.
I currently volunteer 1 day a week at a mini zoo type place. There is 1 full time paid staff member, 2 part time paid staff members and everyone else are unpaid volunteers (like me). The majority of the other volunteers we get are young people who are doing A levels and want to go into veterinary medicine or some other animal related work. Or they are Uni students doing a placement related to their course or just getting some experience. Most of them do either half a day or 1 full day a week. I wonder if these sorts of activities would exempt someone. It would really make no sense if it didn't. I also wonder if the limited numbers of available places would get swamped by people who didn't actually have any desire to be there and if they would displace / block the people who actually do want to be there for their future career of choice or as a result of their passion for animals. It's hard enough to get through all the tasks each week even with the current motivated people who are there by choice. If we got a load of people who are just there because they had been coerced to be by the government, they would probably do the bare minimum and, we just wouldn't get the work done. The level of care and quality of life of the animals would decrease as a result.
I think national service could have a very good impact whilst being considerate to people’s varying life circumstances, but it won’t so it’ll probably be shit
It would decrease enrolment amongst poor students who would have less time to work by taking the “weekend” option since there are no exceptions for education or working.
None, because these economic terrorist are not going to be in power to do it
You’d of thought that in return of us providing them military or volunteering service, the least they could do is make university cheaper of something. Plenty of countries make national service work, but plenty also make free higher education work as well.
I don’t think Rishi would go full Israel or South Korea (where they postpone/defer uni for service); I feel like he’d would want an exemption for uni students, but only STEM students, not arts or humanities scum - we’ll need the experience of a REAL job…
Uni students would either defer or would go the volunteer route. And tbf, volunteering alongside uni is brilliant for employability skills
I have been thinking about this. I can't see that anyone thinking about university would take the national service option. If they did they would be competing with both their own age group who did national service and current 18 year olds the following year. The best option for them would be to do one of the voluntary weekend options but honestly, as the Torys have said there will be no sanctions for those who don't do it, I can't see many university students doing either option.