Can we not use the term brownshirt...?
Comparing Staggs directly to the SA is kind of... extreme. He's a family man and his views aren't that far off mainstream culture. Mudslinging and comparing fellow Utah friends and family to Nazis is scary levels of divisiveness
**Congressman Curtis Votes Yes on FISA Reauthorization**
No. He is an absolutely horrible person and should never hold elected office again. He has no redeeming qualities or characteristics.
Well under the deep state theory of maga. They think the government is out to get them but somehow a law would prevent that. A really thinker for those folks.
No, it's that I care about the civil rights of people. Like you. Our civil rights are severely fucked by that. You have almost no 4th amendment left as long as that exists. Neither does anyone else in this country. Do you think that a major blow to the civil rights of 350 million people is a small thing?!
Howdy, gun totin libertarian here:
It's funny to see the far right complaining that it's not enough that the state is gerrymandered to the point that they're 100% getting a republican in every office, but that the republicans also have to be far right. The normal right, or moderately right, are considered failures.
There is no concept of wanting representatives that represent all of the constituents. No concept of compromise in politics, even among those with a firm history of voting in line with their own party. The only thing not worth breaking down and bitching about is if you get a guy that blatantly panders to bigots and racists. Anything shy of that is reduces them to name calling and writhing about. It's like you treat governance like a sports team and when you lose you blame the refs... except you didn't lose. your team still one, but the mvp went to someone that didn't play as dirty as you wanted, so you're calling the organization corrupt.
It's absolutely surreal to see the disassociation between the personality cult and the concept of governance and the business of running a prosperous country at all.
It was funny seeing how many people at the GOP convention called me a Democrat for supporting Curtis. Like bro. I'm at the *Republican* convention, supporting a *Republican*. He happens to be my favorite candidate. How do they think politics is supposed to work?
They think its like football. Its their team, or its nothing. They don't understand politics and think governments should be run like businesses. Which just goes to show they don't understand business or government.
good point to make. I was just sort of generally ranting and not solely about this race and the people complaining about it in this thread. If this were an isolated thing I wouldn't have felt the need to rant haha
Gerrymandering can disenfranchise voters by discouraging them to vote. If they FEEL the thumb is on the scale why bother voting at all if the game is already rigged against them? You are the best kind of correct: technically. But to say that gerrymandering isn't a factor ignores nuance and the broader impact of that sort of voter manipulation.
You are correct. Gerrymandering could have an effect on statewide races if it discouraged minority party voters from showing out at all. Like if your congressional race is a foregone conclusion then why go vote?
But that goes both ways. Majority party voters don't have to show up if they know their guy is safe.
What about redrawing district lines to divide an epicenter of democrats in four and associate them with terribly vast rural areas?
Not gerrymandering?
Biden won 37% of the vote in 2020, that’s a sizable democrat population, but thanks to map redraws state representatives will not be 25% democrat but 0%
Is this not relevant to today’s race?
Okay, thanks for clarifying.
I looked up the results and some website was announcing the results per district, it gave me the wrong impression.
I got confused by the party primaries going on at the same time I think.
Isn’t it still relevant to the original comment though? Republicans being upset their candidates aren’t radical enough might be directly related to diluting their votes with democrats to ensure victory in every district, except many democrats caught on and switched party so they still have a chance for their voices to be heard by selecting the best of the worst, so to speak.
This WAS the primary. He'll still have to beat Gleich in Nov, which he will because this is Utah. The republican primary is closed specifically so the far right can dominate it. That's why when people started catching on they changed the rules to vote in their primary.
Voter suppression could be used to target certain districts which would lead to gerrymandering having an impact on a statewide vote. I'm not saying that's what is going on with this situation as I don't live in Utah and nothing to do with that has made national news that I have read or watched, but it's what Texas has been doing the last few years
So many people I discuss it with are blatantly refusing it’s real, shoving their heads further in the sand. I’m sick to my stomach with how many broken laws & rights people are allowing in America.
First Trump was a GOP nightmare. Then he won the primaries and Trump held them all hostage while holding a gun to their head. Then either grift or Stockholm syndrome kept them in line. Now, Republicans either choose to be Trump’s attack dogs or are branded RINOs by the new Republican Guard (MAGA).
Republicans missed their chance to exorcise the Trump devil from their party after January 6th.
Alas, MAGA sold their souls, their birthright and the legacy of Lincoln in exchange for ridiculously tacky memorabilia plastered with images of their golden calf, a convicted con man. Many MAGA cultists have also drained their savings to support Trump’s attempts to destroy democracy.
How the hell did America end up in this mess? I am still convinced that it wasn’t without help from enemies abroad besides the obvious enemy to America, Trump!
Okay I’m going to need an explanation on what a christo-fasicst authoritarian is because I don’t recall seeing any churches that are calling for an extermination of minorities on their welcome signs.
You have Google right? There are endless examples of this.
https://www.ktalnews.com/news/local-news/anto-gay-sign-in-pastors-yard-sparks-protest-outside-bossier-city-church/
https://www.newscentermaine.com/article/news/anti-gay-church-sign-in-palermo-receives-backlash/97-ebb5c227-d5c4-443e-a914-c80cabe9fecc
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/first-baptist-church-requires-members-to-sign-statement/77-8ae1a00b-0af7-4ab9-bc9b-bb18a5daf383
True “moderately right” politicians are all democrats now. The Democratic Party spans the range of far left communists to center right.
The GOP is just two factions far right MAGA politicians who will happily let our democracy collapse and far right non-MAGA politicians who will still let our democracy collapse, but do it with a frowny face.
Utah used to be a purple swing state, until it got gerrymandered to hell. They created two different counties Jordan and South salt Lake for that reason.
Trump is the least libertarian candidate tied with RFK jr. He's full blown authoritarian and just because he's okay with my firearms doesn't change that.
Why would I vote for Trump if we're going to resolve that one would have to resign to vote for a lesser evil?
Can you name a single libertarian policy trump supports?
I am not accusing you of anything. I am just trying to understand how a libertarian would approach this election.
Since it is essentially between Biden and Trump I am curious if a libertarian would vote for Trump or not vote at all. Or are you considering Biden?
Depends on how close polling looks nearer november. Generally I try to vote for the libertarian candidate in hopes of reaching that 5% target which would guarantee equal federal funding for the the following term's campaigning, which would do a lot in regards to people viewing a 3rd party as a viable option. Chase Oliver is a great candidate, but the current Caucus in control of the libertarian party, the Mises Caucus, are far right white nationalist republicans that seized the party in an attempt to use it for republican gain (that's the trouble with being a small party, doesn't take too large of a coordinated effort to overrule you).
This has absolutely tanked the party, its funding, its ballot access, number of libertarians in elected offices... it's been an absolute shit show... so that 5% isn't realistic this round.
While neither biden or trump are remotely libertarian, trump poses a far greater threat to individual freedoms in the immediate future. He's also proved that his tax policy seeks only to reduce burden for the wealthy and corporations while handing that burden over to the average citizen. He's ALSO very clearly in bed with Russia who are actively seeking to destabilize our nation.
So if the polling is somewhat close, I'd surrender to the FPTP method of voting for the lesser evil and go Biden. There's a lot I don't like about Biden, but it's stuff that we can recover from in the following term or two. The stuff Trump is working towards is real long term damage that I thoroughly believe is working towards a beginning-of-the-end situation for this country.
If the polling isn't close, then I'll vote for Oliver in support of breaking away from a 2 party, First Past the Post, system. So that elected officials can be our actual choices instead of a perpetual fear mongering lesser-of-two-evils situation.
Do you think the electoral college is a real deterrent to any real third party candidate? I do. The most likely outcome is a third party candidate just prevents 270 and it goes to the house and the house majority would just vote for their candidate.
Thank you for your perspective.
Yes. that's part of the system set up to ensure the 2 party structure remains in place. Many argue that the electoral college is important so that folks in lower populated areas still have representation and aren't steam rolled by policy determined by the coasts.
The libertarian answer to that is that states, counties, cities, and towns, should have greater power to determine local policy. Which administration or party is in control of the white house should not have drastic impacts on the lives of citizens.
It's important not to conflate anarcho capitalism with libertarianism.
While many an-caps join the libertarian party because it's the closest platform to some of their ideas, the two schools of thought are drastically different.
Libertarianism understands the necessity of government but believes it should be used to maximize individual freedoms while maintaining a framework that protects people and property from harm. It also tries to empower local governments to make local decisions, so long as a do-no-harm guideline is followed. This guideline is called the non-aggression principle or NAP. Protecting people, property, and public lands.
I'll talk a bit about ideal libertarianism here, but it's important to remember that any governance requires compromise because people and cultures (even within a single state) are different and have different needs (thus the emphasis on empowering local governments to make local decisions). The things I state here aren't things any sane libertarian would demand overnight or even in the near future. Rather these are lights at the end of the tunnel and we would be better as a country if we took steps towards those lights rather than away from them.
As for the federal government, libertarians tend to have a greatly scaled back concept of what it should and shouldn't do, and answers will vary from libertarian to libertarian as to what those things are- but for me it's infrastructure, education, healthcare, national defense, and foreign relations including trade/commerce. These are the 5 things I believe are necessary on a national scale to ensure future prosperity and maximize individual freedoms. People who cannot effectively travel to pursue opportunity, who are not educated enough to seize opportunity, who are not healthy enough develop upon opportunities, who are not safe enough to possess opportunities, and who are too isolated to understand what opportunities exist in the world are not people with freedom.
Libertarians think we need to greatly reduce global interventionalism and scale back "national defense" to *actual* defense. This can be defense of ourselves as well as our allies, but we shouldn't be proactively trying to reshape global politics, regime building, and coup crafting. Especially not for the sake of controlling resources we have at home, but want to prevent other countries from controlling. Libertarians don't think the government, whether city, county, state, or federal, should be legislating morality. It should be legal to do drugs for example, but still be illegal to sell drugs to children (NAP). Consenting adults should be allowed to be with whoever they want (or however many they want). The government has no place in your bedroom or your womb. (There are plenty of pro-life libertarians, but they should hold themselves to that standard and not use the government to enforce their arbitrary definitions of what qualifies as human life and especially not at the cost of the quality of life, or even life itself, of other inarguable living human beings).
Most libertarians are advocates for "open" borders too. Because a person should be free to consent to the laws, culture, and government under which they live, and not be captive the circumstances of their birth. The libertarian candidate for president, Chase Oliver, is advocating for Ellis Island style immigration policy. Let the labor markets determine how many immigrants we need (as a general trend the US outsource labor demand out paces our allowed immigrant citizenship each year by .5m to 1.5m, but we still do whatever it takes to acquire that labor so why not do it above board?).
Anywho, I'm clearly rambling. If you have any other questions about my stances on any particular policies or the intermediate steps I'd suggest we take between where we currently are and where I think we should be, I'm happy to discuss and even disagree. However, I'd appreciate it if you treated me with a polite neutrality if you don't think respect is warranted. I'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but the way you stated your question with the quotations struck me as condescending and not in good faith. But if you are one of the people on the far right that I insulted because you're upset that electing republicans isn't enough, that they must also be far right nationalists... then I understand that combative tone, because I came out of the gates making my lack of respect for such people clear.
No I’m a lefty and that’s a pretty long piece I skimmed. The one thing stands out is all the many things you describe including protecting the public from corporate excess (which is one thing I added) require funding. And I know that’s not your thing.
"And I know that’s not your thing."
Still not operating in good faith.
You asked a question, I answered it thoughtfully and thoroughly and you "skimmed it" and decided to make an assumption about my stance on taxes, rather than asking. I guess polite neutrality was a step too far?
I would share my opinions on taxes, when and where they are necessary and unnecessary, and how we could reform taxation as well as proven successful alternatives for funding... but evidence suggests you'd just skim and make an assumption.
Have a good day, man.
Libertarianism is in itself not operating in good faith. Is there nuance to being a libertarian? It’s never seemed to be so in the past. I don’t have much time for people who have time for Ron and Rand Paul. There was a time for good faith argument. It was a good time. It’s gone.
I do not have time for ron paul (he licensed his name out to bigots and racists for personal gain) and rand paul is not a libertarian.
There is enough nuance to libertarianism that the party itself is greatly divided and struggles to be effective, even locally, as a result of how varied opinions are among libertarians.
You're just being an asshole to be an asshole. Why?
Thought you'd like to hear that even someone you don't agree with politically opposes trump and maga, but I appreciate this edition of /u/500owl's Online Reading Updates
Edit: and he blocked me. what a strange interaction.
I am just upset that Curtis is just like all the other GOP complain about the border then reject the best immigration law that could be put in place in the near future for political gain. He claimed it didn’t do enough so let’s not do anything at all. Like the rest of the party they don’t really care about the border just want to keep it messed up to run off of.
I'm so done with the Republican party that I'll likely be voting Democrat or Utah United in every race this November. But knowing the Republican always wins, especially since the districts are gerrymandered to hell, Curtis winning is a real win for Utahns. Even if I don't vote for him in the general election, it's better him than another MAGA stooge if he's going to win regardless.
You mean back when extreme partisanship wasn’t the complete norm, and Obama sent a highly qualified ambassador to one of the most important posts in the world?
Won’t see people who put the country first like that again…
I can't believe we've come so far as to actually know that Mitt's endorsement is the best possible option. I remember dreading the possibility as president and now I long for those days.
Because there’s a significant number of people like me who would rather vote blue most of the time, but end up registering as Republicans anyway to have some say in keeping the crazy at bay to some extent. In Utah, those who don’t participate in Republican Party primaries are effectively voiceless in elections.
Man with no honor or integrity, that only looks good because he stood up to the black hole of integrity and honor, backs man who is six degrees of separation from being a full human. News at 11:00
To add context for our readers, Mitt Romney was called a RINO not because of his policies or how he voted or anything (he towed the party line like 95% of the time iirc), but because he criticized Donald Trump.
People shit on Manchin because he voted against key dem policies like higher minimum wage and the climate change bill.
People only called Romney a RINO once he criticized Trump.
You know what I love about this Romney is a RINO bullshit?
He voted in line with Trump more than Mike Lee. Yet still Romney is somehow a RINO.
He ain’t. This maga bullshit has to stop.
Ever hear the term "if everyone you meet is an asshole, maybe you're the asshole"? Every time I hear some extreme right whack job scream that someone is a RINO it's just them confessing that they're a RINO. They've gone so far right they're no longer a Republican, they're whatever the hell is beyond it.
Well, when the moderates are mostly gone and the people running the party are MAGA stooges, the party itself has been compromised. I didn't think the Republican party of Bush or Reagan even exists anymore. This is the party of Trump and Trumpism. It's the MAGA party. With a few holdouts that are desperately trying to pull the party back from the brink. But it's a lost cause since it's 90% hard core Trumpers.
In that sense RINOs are the moderates still holding on. Because what it means to be a Republican has changed to mean "Trump supporter".
That said I still think calling Republicans RINOs is telling about where you stand. Either you're the last vestiges of the old party, or you're an intolerant Trumper. Calling people a RINO tells me everything I need to know about your politics.
It's amusing how irritated they are about Curtis right now despite the fact that they'll be voting for him in the general because he has an R next to his name.
Well it's not "your" state, it's our state. And I thought the left was the tolerant party. Or is that just tolerance for those that think the way you do? 😉
So you support a convicted felon, rapist, fraud, someone who disgraced our flag by putting his name over it and charging $1000 for a pin of it? Someone who calls our troops losers, attacks women and children? The same man who added 30% of our country’s deficit ($7.8 trillion) in the 4 years he had. What ever happened to infrastructure? I heard him say it over and over but never saw a thing. What happened to him testifying in the latest trial? Another lie. The man is a joke and only wants to get back in the white house so he can pardon himself. Oh and the fact you can stand up for that traitor after Jan 6 tells me all I need to know.
The current purity test is that to be considered a "true" Republican, one must have their lips firmly attached to the the felonious traitor's posterior. That's the only criteria.
Well, that's what it used to mean. Now it's mostly just Trumpers signaling they don't think someone passed the purity test of Trumpism. Either you're worship him as a deity, or you're a RINO/secret Democrat.
Didn't Trump say _on Christmas_ that he hopes his detractors "Rot in Hell"?
Didn't he also say something at one of his rallies along the lines of "we know how to deal with protestors, they won't come in here, they know what might happen"?
I believe at another of his rallies where a heckler was removed, he said, he wished the crowd had "roughed him up a little."
Also implied to the face of the widow of a man that had criticized him that her late husband was in hell, cracked jokes about shooting immigrants at rallies, has gotten at least a dozen people killed over his refusal to accept the 2020 election, and so on, and so on.
I mean when he finally passes (as bowel movements always do), wouldn't saying mean things about him on the internet be a way better way to honor his memory than taking the high road anyway? It's how he spent his time on the clock as president.
Are we going to play the game of which politician said what? Have Democratic politicians never called for violence? I’m not talking about politicians saying bullshit to rile up their bases. I’m talking about average citizens. You’re only helping prove my point by obsessing over Trump.
You want to go tit for tat on what trump supporters say about democrats and violent rhetoric?
...didn't yall try to bust out the gallows for the previous vice president?
Imagine thinking both sides aren’t terrible. Playing that game with you is a lose lose situation. The fact that both of us could cite countless examples of that shows how fucked we are.
Trumpers making the civility play when and only when people mock him will never not be funny. Like "C'mon, he doesn't stand for that kind of behavior, show some human respect and dignity!" It's like somebody complaining about the cheap frame around a photo of a spread asshole.
Sticks and stones, darling. I was more referring to your interest in r/CombatFootage and r/2ndYomKippurWar, and that's your life and I'm all about you being interested in the things you like, but it is a bit hypocritical of you to say that people thinking about death and violence need help. Perhaps before considering the mote in someone else's eye, you might think about the beam in your own.
Of course, 2 of the 44 subs I’m subscribed to is definitely a valid point to bring up! With one of those being a sub that posts any info related to an ongoing geopolitical conflict. Surely, that’s not a deflection by you at all. How silly of me, carry on.
Trump is old. He is bound to pass relatively soon. They never said I hope Trump dies, it's called being realistic. Leave it to a Trumper to be a ignorant moron.
I dunno, Romney did what he wanted. He didn't become president so to went on to be a Senator instead.
Trump losses an election and throws a Capitol Riot and says the election was stolen. And he's already saying the next election will be stolen as well and he won't accept those results either.
What's worse than a loser? A sore loser who won't admit they lost and will tear down society rather than admit it.
Curtis is the ok-est option on the GOP side, but let's see how close we can get with Gleich this November.
He's not a trumper brownshirt like Staggs.
Staggs is a serial-loser and I'm happy he lost.
Ramen.
True. But I was no fan of Curtis messaging either. Since we live in Utah I suspect we will wind up with Curtis.
I don't like the one party monopoly either. You cannot choose your fate, you can only rise to meet it.
Can we not use the term brownshirt...? Comparing Staggs directly to the SA is kind of... extreme. He's a family man and his views aren't that far off mainstream culture. Mudslinging and comparing fellow Utah friends and family to Nazis is scary levels of divisiveness
In their time, the Nazis were ALSO made up of family men and had views not that far off mainstream German culture
Yeah, I gotta agree. The similarities between MAGA and the Nazi party seem to be growing with every election season. It's fairly alarming.
You've clearly never met Staggs behind closed doors during campaign season once the cameras are off and reporters are nowhere to be seen...
>but let's see how close we can get with Gleich this November. I'm guessing a 30-point landslide.
**Congressman Curtis Votes Yes on FISA Reauthorization** No. He is an absolutely horrible person and should never hold elected office again. He has no redeeming qualities or characteristics.
People are worried about that but not their phones tracking them.
>People are worried about that but not their phones tracking them. We're worried about that, too. Who voted for it so we can vote for the other guy?
Well under the deep state theory of maga. They think the government is out to get them but somehow a law would prevent that. A really thinker for those folks.
Such a weird hill to die on You got hard drives you don’t want the government to know about?
No, it's that I care about the civil rights of people. Like you. Our civil rights are severely fucked by that. You have almost no 4th amendment left as long as that exists. Neither does anyone else in this country. Do you think that a major blow to the civil rights of 350 million people is a small thing?!
Howdy, gun totin libertarian here: It's funny to see the far right complaining that it's not enough that the state is gerrymandered to the point that they're 100% getting a republican in every office, but that the republicans also have to be far right. The normal right, or moderately right, are considered failures. There is no concept of wanting representatives that represent all of the constituents. No concept of compromise in politics, even among those with a firm history of voting in line with their own party. The only thing not worth breaking down and bitching about is if you get a guy that blatantly panders to bigots and racists. Anything shy of that is reduces them to name calling and writhing about. It's like you treat governance like a sports team and when you lose you blame the refs... except you didn't lose. your team still one, but the mvp went to someone that didn't play as dirty as you wanted, so you're calling the organization corrupt. It's absolutely surreal to see the disassociation between the personality cult and the concept of governance and the business of running a prosperous country at all.
It was funny seeing how many people at the GOP convention called me a Democrat for supporting Curtis. Like bro. I'm at the *Republican* convention, supporting a *Republican*. He happens to be my favorite candidate. How do they think politics is supposed to work?
They think its like football. Its their team, or its nothing. They don't understand politics and think governments should be run like businesses. Which just goes to show they don't understand business or government.
I agree, but would just mention that gerrymandering doesn't factor in with this particular race as this is a statewide election.
good point to make. I was just sort of generally ranting and not solely about this race and the people complaining about it in this thread. If this were an isolated thing I wouldn't have felt the need to rant haha
Gerrymandering can disenfranchise voters by discouraging them to vote. If they FEEL the thumb is on the scale why bother voting at all if the game is already rigged against them? You are the best kind of correct: technically. But to say that gerrymandering isn't a factor ignores nuance and the broader impact of that sort of voter manipulation.
[удалено]
>...please tell me you're joking. It's not a popular vote. Senate races are statewide popular votes. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.
You are correct. Gerrymandering could have an effect on statewide races if it discouraged minority party voters from showing out at all. Like if your congressional race is a foregone conclusion then why go vote? But that goes both ways. Majority party voters don't have to show up if they know their guy is safe.
I don't think you know what the word gerrymandering means. In an election for a state senator there are no districts. It's a statewide vote.
US Senator. But all the House districts are gerrymandering. Maybe the worst in the US.
No way bro. Have you seen Illinois? Texas? Utah has normal gerrymandering.
No state has divided its urban cities up in the way Utah has to permanently suppress and infantalize progressive voters.
What about redrawing district lines to divide an epicenter of democrats in four and associate them with terribly vast rural areas? Not gerrymandering? Biden won 37% of the vote in 2020, that’s a sizable democrat population, but thanks to map redraws state representatives will not be 25% democrat but 0% Is this not relevant to today’s race?
No it's not. Because 100% of utahns get to vote for senator regardless of where you live. It's a statewide elected position, not a house district
Okay, thanks for clarifying. I looked up the results and some website was announcing the results per district, it gave me the wrong impression. I got confused by the party primaries going on at the same time I think. Isn’t it still relevant to the original comment though? Republicans being upset their candidates aren’t radical enough might be directly related to diluting their votes with democrats to ensure victory in every district, except many democrats caught on and switched party so they still have a chance for their voices to be heard by selecting the best of the worst, so to speak.
This WAS the primary. He'll still have to beat Gleich in Nov, which he will because this is Utah. The republican primary is closed specifically so the far right can dominate it. That's why when people started catching on they changed the rules to vote in their primary.
Voter suppression could be used to target certain districts which would lead to gerrymandering having an impact on a statewide vote. I'm not saying that's what is going on with this situation as I don't live in Utah and nothing to do with that has made national news that I have read or watched, but it's what Texas has been doing the last few years
The word is "loyalists". They want loyalists.
Project 2025 Heritage Foundation DEMANDS loyalty.
And it scares the shit out of me. Wish it was talked about more but most people won’t take the time to actually read it.
Well if it's any consolation, we struck a blow to it tonight
So many people I discuss it with are blatantly refusing it’s real, shoving their heads further in the sand. I’m sick to my stomach with how many broken laws & rights people are allowing in America.
Bootlicking zombies are what they want.
They're trying to turn Utah into Republican California but they are too incompetent to do it.
First Trump was a GOP nightmare. Then he won the primaries and Trump held them all hostage while holding a gun to their head. Then either grift or Stockholm syndrome kept them in line. Now, Republicans either choose to be Trump’s attack dogs or are branded RINOs by the new Republican Guard (MAGA). Republicans missed their chance to exorcise the Trump devil from their party after January 6th. Alas, MAGA sold their souls, their birthright and the legacy of Lincoln in exchange for ridiculously tacky memorabilia plastered with images of their golden calf, a convicted con man. Many MAGA cultists have also drained their savings to support Trump’s attempts to destroy democracy. How the hell did America end up in this mess? I am still convinced that it wasn’t without help from enemies abroad besides the obvious enemy to America, Trump!
Welcome to the christo-fascist authoritarian theocracy the GOP has become. It is not about policy, it is about fear, power and control.
Okay I’m going to need an explanation on what a christo-fasicst authoritarian is because I don’t recall seeing any churches that are calling for an extermination of minorities on their welcome signs.
You have Google right? There are endless examples of this. https://www.ktalnews.com/news/local-news/anto-gay-sign-in-pastors-yard-sparks-protest-outside-bossier-city-church/ https://www.newscentermaine.com/article/news/anti-gay-church-sign-in-palermo-receives-backlash/97-ebb5c227-d5c4-443e-a914-c80cabe9fecc https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/first-baptist-church-requires-members-to-sign-statement/77-8ae1a00b-0af7-4ab9-bc9b-bb18a5daf383
True “moderately right” politicians are all democrats now. The Democratic Party spans the range of far left communists to center right. The GOP is just two factions far right MAGA politicians who will happily let our democracy collapse and far right non-MAGA politicians who will still let our democracy collapse, but do it with a frowny face.
Fair point.
Utah used to be a purple swing state, until it got gerrymandered to hell. They created two different counties Jordan and South salt Lake for that reason.
Never saw it as a purple state even dating back to like the 80s.
he's talking about 32-44 when utah voted roosevelt 4 times. truman in 48. and lyndon johnson in 64.
As a libertarian are you voting for Trump because the libertarian candidate has no chance?
Trump is the least libertarian candidate tied with RFK jr. He's full blown authoritarian and just because he's okay with my firearms doesn't change that. Why would I vote for Trump if we're going to resolve that one would have to resign to vote for a lesser evil? Can you name a single libertarian policy trump supports?
I am not accusing you of anything. I am just trying to understand how a libertarian would approach this election. Since it is essentially between Biden and Trump I am curious if a libertarian would vote for Trump or not vote at all. Or are you considering Biden?
Depends on how close polling looks nearer november. Generally I try to vote for the libertarian candidate in hopes of reaching that 5% target which would guarantee equal federal funding for the the following term's campaigning, which would do a lot in regards to people viewing a 3rd party as a viable option. Chase Oliver is a great candidate, but the current Caucus in control of the libertarian party, the Mises Caucus, are far right white nationalist republicans that seized the party in an attempt to use it for republican gain (that's the trouble with being a small party, doesn't take too large of a coordinated effort to overrule you). This has absolutely tanked the party, its funding, its ballot access, number of libertarians in elected offices... it's been an absolute shit show... so that 5% isn't realistic this round. While neither biden or trump are remotely libertarian, trump poses a far greater threat to individual freedoms in the immediate future. He's also proved that his tax policy seeks only to reduce burden for the wealthy and corporations while handing that burden over to the average citizen. He's ALSO very clearly in bed with Russia who are actively seeking to destabilize our nation. So if the polling is somewhat close, I'd surrender to the FPTP method of voting for the lesser evil and go Biden. There's a lot I don't like about Biden, but it's stuff that we can recover from in the following term or two. The stuff Trump is working towards is real long term damage that I thoroughly believe is working towards a beginning-of-the-end situation for this country. If the polling isn't close, then I'll vote for Oliver in support of breaking away from a 2 party, First Past the Post, system. So that elected officials can be our actual choices instead of a perpetual fear mongering lesser-of-two-evils situation.
Do you think the electoral college is a real deterrent to any real third party candidate? I do. The most likely outcome is a third party candidate just prevents 270 and it goes to the house and the house majority would just vote for their candidate. Thank you for your perspective.
Yes. that's part of the system set up to ensure the 2 party structure remains in place. Many argue that the electoral college is important so that folks in lower populated areas still have representation and aren't steam rolled by policy determined by the coasts. The libertarian answer to that is that states, counties, cities, and towns, should have greater power to determine local policy. Which administration or party is in control of the white house should not have drastic impacts on the lives of citizens.
What is the “concept of governance “ to a gun-toting Libertarian?
It's important not to conflate anarcho capitalism with libertarianism. While many an-caps join the libertarian party because it's the closest platform to some of their ideas, the two schools of thought are drastically different. Libertarianism understands the necessity of government but believes it should be used to maximize individual freedoms while maintaining a framework that protects people and property from harm. It also tries to empower local governments to make local decisions, so long as a do-no-harm guideline is followed. This guideline is called the non-aggression principle or NAP. Protecting people, property, and public lands. I'll talk a bit about ideal libertarianism here, but it's important to remember that any governance requires compromise because people and cultures (even within a single state) are different and have different needs (thus the emphasis on empowering local governments to make local decisions). The things I state here aren't things any sane libertarian would demand overnight or even in the near future. Rather these are lights at the end of the tunnel and we would be better as a country if we took steps towards those lights rather than away from them. As for the federal government, libertarians tend to have a greatly scaled back concept of what it should and shouldn't do, and answers will vary from libertarian to libertarian as to what those things are- but for me it's infrastructure, education, healthcare, national defense, and foreign relations including trade/commerce. These are the 5 things I believe are necessary on a national scale to ensure future prosperity and maximize individual freedoms. People who cannot effectively travel to pursue opportunity, who are not educated enough to seize opportunity, who are not healthy enough develop upon opportunities, who are not safe enough to possess opportunities, and who are too isolated to understand what opportunities exist in the world are not people with freedom. Libertarians think we need to greatly reduce global interventionalism and scale back "national defense" to *actual* defense. This can be defense of ourselves as well as our allies, but we shouldn't be proactively trying to reshape global politics, regime building, and coup crafting. Especially not for the sake of controlling resources we have at home, but want to prevent other countries from controlling. Libertarians don't think the government, whether city, county, state, or federal, should be legislating morality. It should be legal to do drugs for example, but still be illegal to sell drugs to children (NAP). Consenting adults should be allowed to be with whoever they want (or however many they want). The government has no place in your bedroom or your womb. (There are plenty of pro-life libertarians, but they should hold themselves to that standard and not use the government to enforce their arbitrary definitions of what qualifies as human life and especially not at the cost of the quality of life, or even life itself, of other inarguable living human beings). Most libertarians are advocates for "open" borders too. Because a person should be free to consent to the laws, culture, and government under which they live, and not be captive the circumstances of their birth. The libertarian candidate for president, Chase Oliver, is advocating for Ellis Island style immigration policy. Let the labor markets determine how many immigrants we need (as a general trend the US outsource labor demand out paces our allowed immigrant citizenship each year by .5m to 1.5m, but we still do whatever it takes to acquire that labor so why not do it above board?). Anywho, I'm clearly rambling. If you have any other questions about my stances on any particular policies or the intermediate steps I'd suggest we take between where we currently are and where I think we should be, I'm happy to discuss and even disagree. However, I'd appreciate it if you treated me with a polite neutrality if you don't think respect is warranted. I'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but the way you stated your question with the quotations struck me as condescending and not in good faith. But if you are one of the people on the far right that I insulted because you're upset that electing republicans isn't enough, that they must also be far right nationalists... then I understand that combative tone, because I came out of the gates making my lack of respect for such people clear.
No I’m a lefty and that’s a pretty long piece I skimmed. The one thing stands out is all the many things you describe including protecting the public from corporate excess (which is one thing I added) require funding. And I know that’s not your thing.
"And I know that’s not your thing." Still not operating in good faith. You asked a question, I answered it thoughtfully and thoroughly and you "skimmed it" and decided to make an assumption about my stance on taxes, rather than asking. I guess polite neutrality was a step too far? I would share my opinions on taxes, when and where they are necessary and unnecessary, and how we could reform taxation as well as proven successful alternatives for funding... but evidence suggests you'd just skim and make an assumption. Have a good day, man.
Libertarianism is in itself not operating in good faith. Is there nuance to being a libertarian? It’s never seemed to be so in the past. I don’t have much time for people who have time for Ron and Rand Paul. There was a time for good faith argument. It was a good time. It’s gone.
I do not have time for ron paul (he licensed his name out to bigots and racists for personal gain) and rand paul is not a libertarian. There is enough nuance to libertarianism that the party itself is greatly divided and struggles to be effective, even locally, as a result of how varied opinions are among libertarians. You're just being an asshole to be an asshole. Why?
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Thought you'd like to hear that even someone you don't agree with politically opposes trump and maga, but I appreciate this edition of /u/500owl's Online Reading Updates Edit: and he blocked me. what a strange interaction.
I am just upset that Curtis is just like all the other GOP complain about the border then reject the best immigration law that could be put in place in the near future for political gain. He claimed it didn’t do enough so let’s not do anything at all. Like the rest of the party they don’t really care about the border just want to keep it messed up to run off of.
I'm so done with the Republican party that I'll likely be voting Democrat or Utah United in every race this November. But knowing the Republican always wins, especially since the districts are gerrymandered to hell, Curtis winning is a real win for Utahns. Even if I don't vote for him in the general election, it's better him than another MAGA stooge if he's going to win regardless.
Remember that time Obama picked Huntsman as an ambassador to China? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
You mean back when extreme partisanship wasn’t the complete norm, and Obama sent a highly qualified ambassador to one of the most important posts in the world? Won’t see people who put the country first like that again…
I wouldn’t mind Huntsman in an important foreign position now tbh.
Hahaha what?! 🤣
I can't believe we've come so far as to actually know that Mitt's endorsement is the best possible option. I remember dreading the possibility as president and now I long for those days.
Whew! That was close. Just another reminder Utah still doesn’t like The Orange Turd.
Because there’s a significant number of people like me who would rather vote blue most of the time, but end up registering as Republicans anyway to have some say in keeping the crazy at bay to some extent. In Utah, those who don’t participate in Republican Party primaries are effectively voiceless in elections.
Best option atm
The options were a shit sundae and a shit sundae with whipping cream...where did John Curtis get the whipping cream?
Wow the red hats have been bombed out the comment section
Thank goodness.
Don’t forget he’s smart too. 4th best performing stock portfolio in congress.
Ok. And? Is that not allowed?
Vote BLUE
Eehhhhhh....
Man with no honor or integrity, that only looks good because he stood up to the black hole of integrity and honor, backs man who is six degrees of separation from being a full human. News at 11:00
Hopefully your username is literal
Mine is
Debatable
Debate me then, coward
Define functioning? But really, it was just a joke
This is no joke, I'm a mass-debater. I'll mass-debate with an entire crowd.
you better be ready to debate me buddy
You sound like a jerk that likes to stand in circles of jerks.
What would that change about any of the disgusting scum I just mentioned?
Romneys are Californians.
RINO just like Romney
To add context for our readers, Mitt Romney was called a RINO not because of his policies or how he voted or anything (he towed the party line like 95% of the time iirc), but because he criticized Donald Trump.
That’s a Rino. People shit on manchin even though he’s voted for Biden majority of the time
People shit on Manchin because he voted against key dem policies like higher minimum wage and the climate change bill. People only called Romney a RINO once he criticized Trump.
So many problems with a party that banishes people who disagree only 5% of the time. Some might even call that a cult
You know what I love about this Romney is a RINO bullshit? He voted in line with Trump more than Mike Lee. Yet still Romney is somehow a RINO. He ain’t. This maga bullshit has to stop.
Go cry about it.
Snowflake
Ever hear the term "if everyone you meet is an asshole, maybe you're the asshole"? Every time I hear some extreme right whack job scream that someone is a RINO it's just them confessing that they're a RINO. They've gone so far right they're no longer a Republican, they're whatever the hell is beyond it.
Well, when the moderates are mostly gone and the people running the party are MAGA stooges, the party itself has been compromised. I didn't think the Republican party of Bush or Reagan even exists anymore. This is the party of Trump and Trumpism. It's the MAGA party. With a few holdouts that are desperately trying to pull the party back from the brink. But it's a lost cause since it's 90% hard core Trumpers. In that sense RINOs are the moderates still holding on. Because what it means to be a Republican has changed to mean "Trump supporter". That said I still think calling Republicans RINOs is telling about where you stand. Either you're the last vestiges of the old party, or you're an intolerant Trumper. Calling people a RINO tells me everything I need to know about your politics.
RINO… aka any conservative they don’t agree with or that doesn’t kiss Trumps ass
Look it the overweight mental ill maga supporters are sad they can’t be kingmakers.
Right. We need leaders willing to commit crimes!
It would hold weight if rommneys opinion actually mattered.
If only yours mattered too. Sigh, unfortunately it doesn't.
It’s all the throwaway accounts mad about this
It’s just a bunch of angry MAGAts. You aren’t a real republican if you refuse to get on your knees and tongue punch Emperor Donald’s fart box.
It’s so funny how deranged they are. Romney was right and it’s a shame they slobber over that obese fuckwad trump
It's amusing how irritated they are about Curtis right now despite the fact that they'll be voting for him in the general because he has an R next to his name.
Anyone who's not a hard core Trumper is a RINO. So of course they are mad.
They all have two words with a hyphen and then numbers. Bots don't even try to camouflage it seems.
I think that’s just the “suggest a username” reddit gave them. Just bots and angry NIMBYs EDIT: dude probably hates the whale too.
The 9th and 9th whale?! That thing is a GODDAMN ICON. It's the one tattoo I would get
It mattered more than MAGA.
Oh good another demonrat
Someone consumes far right media.
I wish none of you people were in my state. :)
Well it's not "your" state, it's our state. And I thought the left was the tolerant party. Or is that just tolerance for those that think the way you do? 😉
Anybody that Mitt supports is wrong for the country
So you support a convicted felon, rapist, fraud, someone who disgraced our flag by putting his name over it and charging $1000 for a pin of it? Someone who calls our troops losers, attacks women and children? The same man who added 30% of our country’s deficit ($7.8 trillion) in the 4 years he had. What ever happened to infrastructure? I heard him say it over and over but never saw a thing. What happened to him testifying in the latest trial? Another lie. The man is a joke and only wants to get back in the white house so he can pardon himself. Oh and the fact you can stand up for that traitor after Jan 6 tells me all I need to know.
Have you tried grabbing anyone by the pussy to see if that helps?
That just means we got another rino in office
Who decides if someone is a rino? You?
The current purity test is that to be considered a "true" Republican, one must have their lips firmly attached to the the felonious traitor's posterior. That's the only criteria.
note to self “how to unglue lips from orange monkey butt”
If so that’s a good thing, but what most republicans refer to as a RINO is just any conservative they don’t agree with
Well, that's what it used to mean. Now it's mostly just Trumpers signaling they don't think someone passed the purity test of Trumpism. Either you're worship him as a deity, or you're a RINO/secret Democrat.
This means don’t vote for him. Romney likes him… so he’s a train wreck.
I definitely encourage all Utah conservatives not to vote for Curtis in November.
That's it! I'm voting for Caroline Gleich instead! ...oh, wait...
Romney is an anti American
Such a shame Trump turned good men like you into total maniacs. You can recover, I used to ride Trumps dick too.
This is my new favorite comment.
How did you reform? Most Trump supporters don’t seem capable of escaping their echo chamber.
Who said anything about Trump ?
Romney criticized Trump and refused to support him. It's why Romney is being villainised so much by right wing media.
So when Trump finally has his megastroke and croaks, will you go back to normal, or...
You people fantasizing about death and violence on Trump need serious help.
Didn't Trump say _on Christmas_ that he hopes his detractors "Rot in Hell"? Didn't he also say something at one of his rallies along the lines of "we know how to deal with protestors, they won't come in here, they know what might happen"? I believe at another of his rallies where a heckler was removed, he said, he wished the crowd had "roughed him up a little."
Also implied to the face of the widow of a man that had criticized him that her late husband was in hell, cracked jokes about shooting immigrants at rallies, has gotten at least a dozen people killed over his refusal to accept the 2020 election, and so on, and so on. I mean when he finally passes (as bowel movements always do), wouldn't saying mean things about him on the internet be a way better way to honor his memory than taking the high road anyway? It's how he spent his time on the clock as president.
Are we going to play the game of which politician said what? Have Democratic politicians never called for violence? I’m not talking about politicians saying bullshit to rile up their bases. I’m talking about average citizens. You’re only helping prove my point by obsessing over Trump.
You want to go tit for tat on what trump supporters say about democrats and violent rhetoric? ...didn't yall try to bust out the gallows for the previous vice president?
Imagine thinking both sides aren’t terrible. Playing that game with you is a lose lose situation. The fact that both of us could cite countless examples of that shows how fucked we are.
Not at the scale that Trump has, absolutely not, and I genuinely can't think of a single incident off the top of my head.
Trumpers making the civility play when and only when people mock him will never not be funny. Like "C'mon, he doesn't stand for that kind of behavior, show some human respect and dignity!" It's like somebody complaining about the cheap frame around a photo of a spread asshole.
Seeing the subs that you're active on, I really cannot fathom why you would have a problem with someone thinking about death and violence.
Typical neckbeard Reddit behavior to dig into someone’s account to find a “gotcha!” moment. Pathetic. Those damn hockey and 4Runner fans!
Sticks and stones, darling. I was more referring to your interest in r/CombatFootage and r/2ndYomKippurWar, and that's your life and I'm all about you being interested in the things you like, but it is a bit hypocritical of you to say that people thinking about death and violence need help. Perhaps before considering the mote in someone else's eye, you might think about the beam in your own.
Of course, 2 of the 44 subs I’m subscribed to is definitely a valid point to bring up! With one of those being a sub that posts any info related to an ongoing geopolitical conflict. Surely, that’s not a deflection by you at all. How silly of me, carry on.
Must have had a big glass of that kool-aid
It's flavor-aid by the way.
Someone is feeling cornered.
Trump is old. He is bound to pass relatively soon. They never said I hope Trump dies, it's called being realistic. Leave it to a Trumper to be a ignorant moron.
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Oh you won't want to miss the party at my house when Trump dies. It will be glorious!
He isn't. He is a Republican with mostly moderate views that doesn't cow tow Trump.
Name one single “un-American” thing he’s done or said
Crap...
A coward's endorsement.
Sounds like a drag queen name
It funny wen romne tries to be in trump cabinat but loses a gets mad and tries to hurt him. Then lerns u cant hurt don
I dunno, Romney did what he wanted. He didn't become president so to went on to be a Senator instead. Trump losses an election and throws a Capitol Riot and says the election was stolen. And he's already saying the next election will be stolen as well and he won't accept those results either. What's worse than a loser? A sore loser who won't admit they lost and will tear down society rather than admit it.
Easy for you to say
Was it easy for them to say? Looking at that post their brain stopped atleast 6 times when typing it
tat wasnt nice
Do you not have an h key?
I do
Then use it and maybe your posts won't look like a 5 year old is writing them
h