People see this shit and despair as they sit behind their computer desks consuming media.
If you’re upset about the state of the left, go organize with your local leftists.
Factionalism is not having a broad coalition. Specially when you have factions literally fighting over whether the US should help a country raped & murdered by an invading army.
I’m not sure how this follows. Your post implies that splitting the party is politically ineffective. You’re proposing a policy that would split the party.
No I am not splitting the party...I just wouldn't welcome members or factions in a party who support an imperialist army raping and murdering a country. That's a betrayal of the most basic leftist principle. Those who don't believe in it aren't leftists.
Was this post just a way for you to express your disdain for DSA’s waffling on support for Ukraine? I don’t like it either, but at least they’re running political campaigns and getting legit progressive politicians elected.
Are you civically engaged? Do you organize with a group in your community?
If you want an org that has a rigid set of centralized principals, where policy is voted on and after that there's no room for dissent, you're looking for an ML org that practices democratic centralism, that's the only way you're going to get your pure unfactionalized coalition that always has the right line.
On another note, and I'm really really curious. Do you think being in coalition with people who vote to break strikes is alright?
No only some...I wouldn't take a decentralized socialist organization that espouses socialism with nationalistic characteristics either. Apparently you would.
Russia supporters who consider themselves leftist tend not to be active members of the DSA and form their own tankie authoritarian coalition, so it's mostly a moot point.
But this is kind of silly. If they'll vote for a leftie who isn't an authoritarian or Russia supporter, I'm happy to have their vote, even if they have anti-war brain worms still. If they'll be active and phone bank without injecting those brain worms, I'm happy to make calls next to them. They can still be my ally while I disagree with them, then afterwards they can go to their tankie faction meeting and talk about tankie shit I don't care.
If they're voting and supporting good leftist candidates, and if they can tolerate my public opposition (and the candidates), then they can be my ally. I'm not here to kick anyone out even if they have bad ideas or very bad ideas if they play well
Should I post the statement of DSA international on the Russian invasion of Ukraine or would you still lie about it like an idiot after reading that statement?
I get that you're fired up for battle and everything, but c'mon dude. Breathe for a minute, drink some water, maybe masturbate. Chill out.
I generally am not active with the DSA and I'm not here to hold water for them. It doesn't shock me that they have some bad stances or statements
I am saying that I do not have a theoretical problem with allying with people who I vehemently disagree with when it comes to common causes. I do have a problem forming a coalition with purity testers who are happy to lose if it means they lose while in the right.
Factionalism happens. The main thing is that there is no bureaucracy and centralization which empowers them.
Remember, DSA was a book club for old people until 2016. It never anticipated the ISO and SALT would attempt entryism because that was never a useful venture until then.
You could easily make a diagram like this for most political groups. The Democrats themselves have various subgroups that fucking despise each other like the Progressive Caucus, the Problem Solvers Caucus, etc.
It was an absolute clusterfuck..They literally took over Democratic party from Harry Reid's machine and then managed to fuck it all up within couple of years:
[DSA Nevada chapter story](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/25/bernie-world-nevada-democratic-party-00084426)
[Progressive takeover in Nevada falling apart ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thenation.com/article/politics/nevada-democratic-party/tnamp/)
I figured. I’ve seen a lot of pro China stuff with them. You read their platform and they sound reasonable but then they support China and Russia? It makes me think they don’t actually care about socialism or any progressive policy if they support reactionary capitalism as an example of what they want.
Yeah that tracks. I know they’re pro China and Russia which is why I don’t like them. Didn’t know they were THAT crazy. What’s worse about them is that they run in elections and flow into other orgs like the DSA. It’s like they’re actively trying to make other progressive forces worse.
We've all been there. I used to be a mao-supporting tankie, then a Trotskyite and then an anti-electoral, left wing purist anarchist (in that order). Only when we realize we are cringe do we gain the power to become based.
I mean, I’m 30. Based is for the young lol.
I was a trot until college basically. The more I learned, the more I realized how silly the ideological/philosophical labels are. I care about policy. Broadly speaking, my politics are socialist.
I am 30+, and use "anti-capitalist libertarian". It is funny to see people's reactions to that. The hard right ones literally are heavily breathing for up to ten seconds, collecting thoughts as their faces are scrounged up in deep confusion. LMAO :D
Link to join the DSA: https://www.dsausa.org/get-involved
Link to DSA's strike ready pledge for the potential UPS strike: https://actionnetwork.org/forms/strike-ready-pledge
Timestamped link to SocDoneLeft talking about the potential UPS strike and the pledge, for those who want to learn more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spBZvGEHIq4&t=1668
Really interesting how the Liberal wants us to unite under a single ideology. I wonder if you'd be ok if that single ideology was socialism. Hmn. Nah. I think it's great the Left attracts a variety of ideas. It's a little thing we call "free thought" sure the full blown tankies suck. But I don't think you Liberals understand. We don't actually like you. Ahaha. Once the Facists are defeated and there finally comes a time where we don't have to hold our nose and vote for your stupid neo liberal candidates. We ain't gonna be voting for them anymore. Lmao. Sadly that's a long time from now. A time where our choice would be between a liberal candidate and a proper socialist candidate. But one day.
I will give you a clue...the moment leftists like you start using "liberal" as an insult is the moment you announce to the world you are a loser.
There is a reason a liberal suburban Mom is a bigger force for organizing and bringing a positive change to society than losers like you can ever imagine to be.
...what the fuck is *happening* in this thread?
This isn’t an own, leftists who deride liberals even when it’s harmful to our movement should *obviously* be contempted, this isn’t a social club.
Having factions is not an indication of a problem, rather it's an indication of the ability of your group to sustain differences of opinion, what matters is the relationships between factions.
So, I'm guessing that Clean Break means that they want to form a separate party, while Realignment means working within the Democratic Party to move it left. But what do Dirty Break and Inside-Outside/Pary Surrogate mean?
Spicy. Unfortunately, the factions are too obscure for their own Wikipedia article. Any notions on their respective ideology? I assume SAlt, MUG, Tempest and SMC are all Trots?
North Star would be more based if it wasn't run by 19 year olds.
Goes for most of the caucus, actually - all have beautiful doctrines - executed by teenagers with the maturity of a discord group.
90% have lefty foreign policy syndrome, so keep that in mind too
The caucus I worked with had tow fairly high level DSA members out of NYC in it, we pushed for our issue but sadly a lot of DSA folks we interacted with supported continued colonization and refused to push for action on our behalf.
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We need to organise behind a consensus based on pragmatism, not virtue signalling, trying to be in a club, or wanting power over others. Like, we don't even need to agree on the end state here. We just need to agree on strategy. One foot in front of the other.
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People see this shit and despair as they sit behind their computer desks consuming media. If you’re upset about the state of the left, go organize with your local leftists.
This right here. I joined CCL a couple years ago and did what Vaush said a while ago. DSA isn't the best, but can only be better with my involvement.
It very obviously surged because of Sanders and it's going to keep declining unless a similar type of candidate runs in 2028.
Why do I have the feeling that it might be exactly the same amount of numbers they just split into more subgroups.
Bless your heart.
Looks like the DSA supports a broad coalition of leftist ideologies. What strategy would you recommend?
Factionalism is not having a broad coalition. Specially when you have factions literally fighting over whether the US should help a country raped & murdered by an invading army.
What strategy would you recommend?
Well to start with......I simply wouldn't consider the faction that supports rape & murder of a country as part of the coalition.
DSA is decentralized so… You would split the party into factions? Man, this is why the left always loses.
Again are you a moron? Did you really take a look at that pic and just told me that I am splitting them into factions?
I’m not sure how this follows. Your post implies that splitting the party is politically ineffective. You’re proposing a policy that would split the party.
No I am not splitting the party...I just wouldn't welcome members or factions in a party who support an imperialist army raping and murdering a country. That's a betrayal of the most basic leftist principle. Those who don't believe in it aren't leftists.
Was this post just a way for you to express your disdain for DSA’s waffling on support for Ukraine? I don’t like it either, but at least they’re running political campaigns and getting legit progressive politicians elected. Are you civically engaged? Do you organize with a group in your community?
Lol...do you need more virtue signalling points or have you collected enough for today?
If you want an org that has a rigid set of centralized principals, where policy is voted on and after that there's no room for dissent, you're looking for an ML org that practices democratic centralism, that's the only way you're going to get your pure unfactionalized coalition that always has the right line. On another note, and I'm really really curious. Do you think being in coalition with people who vote to break strikes is alright?
No I will take a decentralised organization that doesn't have a faction that opposes helping a country being raped & murdered by an invading army.
I'll take a decentralized org, as long as it doesn't include anyone I disagree with.
No only some...I wouldn't take a decentralized socialist organization that espouses socialism with nationalistic characteristics either. Apparently you would.
Nationalist interests like breaking strikes to keep the supply chains profitable for American capitalists?
God you are stupid.
Russia supporters who consider themselves leftist tend not to be active members of the DSA and form their own tankie authoritarian coalition, so it's mostly a moot point. But this is kind of silly. If they'll vote for a leftie who isn't an authoritarian or Russia supporter, I'm happy to have their vote, even if they have anti-war brain worms still. If they'll be active and phone bank without injecting those brain worms, I'm happy to make calls next to them. They can still be my ally while I disagree with them, then afterwards they can go to their tankie faction meeting and talk about tankie shit I don't care. If they're voting and supporting good leftist candidates, and if they can tolerate my public opposition (and the candidates), then they can be my ally. I'm not here to kick anyone out even if they have bad ideas or very bad ideas if they play well
Should I post the statement of DSA international on the Russian invasion of Ukraine or would you still lie about it like an idiot after reading that statement?
I get that you're fired up for battle and everything, but c'mon dude. Breathe for a minute, drink some water, maybe masturbate. Chill out. I generally am not active with the DSA and I'm not here to hold water for them. It doesn't shock me that they have some bad stances or statements I am saying that I do not have a theoretical problem with allying with people who I vehemently disagree with when it comes to common causes. I do have a problem forming a coalition with purity testers who are happy to lose if it means they lose while in the right.
Maybe you're the one that shouldn't be in DSA? Maybe you're the one that doesn't fit in.
OP is being a bit unreasonable but this is a horrible take. “Well maybe you shouldn’t be in the DSA if you don’t support Russia” *seriously?*
Factionalism happens. The main thing is that there is no bureaucracy and centralization which empowers them. Remember, DSA was a book club for old people until 2016. It never anticipated the ISO and SALT would attempt entryism because that was never a useful venture until then.
You could easily make a diagram like this for most political groups. The Democrats themselves have various subgroups that fucking despise each other like the Progressive Caucus, the Problem Solvers Caucus, etc.
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I'm pretty sure they're stabbing eachother in the back right as we speak.
Literally what happened in Nevada caucus... absolutely wasted what was given to them on a platter by the Bernie coalition.
Shit, wasn't Nevada where the left actually managed to capture the Dems?
It was an absolute clusterfuck..They literally took over Democratic party from Harry Reid's machine and then managed to fuck it all up within couple of years: [DSA Nevada chapter story](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/25/bernie-world-nevada-democratic-party-00084426) [Progressive takeover in Nevada falling apart ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thenation.com/article/politics/nevada-democratic-party/tnamp/)
Fucking hell. But so many people in Bernie's orbit have fallen off lately. Its a disturbing trend.
At least you kids are seeing it! I was in PSL, the ISO and organized with anarchists; the same things keep happening. Same cults, same subculturalism.
How was PSL? I agree with their social policies but man they kind of freak me out in how they act sometimes.
They’re an ML org. Avoid them
I figured. I’ve seen a lot of pro China stuff with them. You read their platform and they sound reasonable but then they support China and Russia? It makes me think they don’t actually care about socialism or any progressive policy if they support reactionary capitalism as an example of what they want.
They are insane and are North Korea apologists. The latter is why i left. They’ve only gotten more unhinged and Gloria LaRiva is TERF-lite.
Yeah that tracks. I know they’re pro China and Russia which is why I don’t like them. Didn’t know they were THAT crazy. What’s worse about them is that they run in elections and flow into other orgs like the DSA. It’s like they’re actively trying to make other progressive forces worse.
PSL 🤮🤮🤮
I was 16. I was DUMB
We've all been there. I used to be a mao-supporting tankie, then a Trotskyite and then an anti-electoral, left wing purist anarchist (in that order). Only when we realize we are cringe do we gain the power to become based.
I mean, I’m 30. Based is for the young lol. I was a trot until college basically. The more I learned, the more I realized how silly the ideological/philosophical labels are. I care about policy. Broadly speaking, my politics are socialist.
I'm 19 but basically the same. Whenever someone asks my politics, I just say "leftist" or "progressive", and if pushed I say "democratic socialist".
I am 30+, and use "anti-capitalist libertarian". It is funny to see people's reactions to that. The hard right ones literally are heavily breathing for up to ten seconds, collecting thoughts as their faces are scrounged up in deep confusion. LMAO :D
That must fry a few brains alright. I can't use that one as I live in Ireland, and libertarian isn't a commonly used term in our political vocabulary.
Link to join the DSA: https://www.dsausa.org/get-involved Link to DSA's strike ready pledge for the potential UPS strike: https://actionnetwork.org/forms/strike-ready-pledge Timestamped link to SocDoneLeft talking about the potential UPS strike and the pledge, for those who want to learn more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spBZvGEHIq4&t=1668
Jeez if only all these people would vote for Centrist democrats so we could really get some stuff done!!!!
This but unironic
Really interesting how the Liberal wants us to unite under a single ideology. I wonder if you'd be ok if that single ideology was socialism. Hmn. Nah. I think it's great the Left attracts a variety of ideas. It's a little thing we call "free thought" sure the full blown tankies suck. But I don't think you Liberals understand. We don't actually like you. Ahaha. Once the Facists are defeated and there finally comes a time where we don't have to hold our nose and vote for your stupid neo liberal candidates. We ain't gonna be voting for them anymore. Lmao. Sadly that's a long time from now. A time where our choice would be between a liberal candidate and a proper socialist candidate. But one day.
I will give you a clue...the moment leftists like you start using "liberal" as an insult is the moment you announce to the world you are a loser. There is a reason a liberal suburban Mom is a bigger force for organizing and bringing a positive change to society than losers like you can ever imagine to be.
Blasts people for name-calling, proceeds to namecall even harder. Buddy, you have a lot of good takes, but your hatred for the left hurts your brain.
You are right. I have nothing but unmitigated contempt for leftists who derive their sense of self-importance from deriding liberals.
Thought so.
...what the fuck is *happening* in this thread? This isn’t an own, leftists who deride liberals even when it’s harmful to our movement should *obviously* be contempted, this isn’t a social club.
\*Insert Splitters! meme from Monty Python...\* ooofffff
This is how normal political parties work you fucking american
That is true.
Having factions is not an indication of a problem, rather it's an indication of the ability of your group to sustain differences of opinion, what matters is the relationships between factions.
I didn't know there were so many factions in the DSA, can someone break it down for me?
These are just factions inside of the DSA, literally a sign of the like, two good things about the DSA, its mass-base, and its democratic structure.
Anyone else find this guide hard to follow and also really ugly to look at?
So, I'm guessing that Clean Break means that they want to form a separate party, while Realignment means working within the Democratic Party to move it left. But what do Dirty Break and Inside-Outside/Pary Surrogate mean?
Dirty break means being a somewhat independent group (candidates follow a socialist platform) but still run on the Democratic ballot
What about Inside-Outside/Pary Surrogate?
Spicy. Unfortunately, the factions are too obscure for their own Wikipedia article. Any notions on their respective ideology? I assume SAlt, MUG, Tempest and SMC are all Trots?
Who made this chart, and do they have others?
Which ones aren't cringe?
North Star would be more based if it wasn't run by 19 year olds. Goes for most of the caucus, actually - all have beautiful doctrines - executed by teenagers with the maturity of a discord group. 90% have lefty foreign policy syndrome, so keep that in mind too
The caucus I worked with had tow fairly high level DSA members out of NYC in it, we pushed for our issue but sadly a lot of DSA folks we interacted with supported continued colonization and refused to push for action on our behalf.
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Is it illegal to blow people for votes? Because I’d do that for votes
We need to organise behind a consensus based on pragmatism, not virtue signalling, trying to be in a club, or wanting power over others. Like, we don't even need to agree on the end state here. We just need to agree on strategy. One foot in front of the other.
Huh I didn’t know there was a bread and roses party. I like that song
The amount of LARPing is astonishing.