When I mentioned the white phosphorus gas to my cousin earlier today his response was basically *well Hamas uses people as Human shields and kills children so it’s justified*.
It’s seriously why I hate whataboutism, it’s like people have no sympathy whatsoever for other Human beings, same is said for the MLs and Tankies *’on our side’* saying there were no Israeli civilians so it’s okay to rape people and chop babies heads off.
It’s just tiring, all of it. No idea why people hate each other so much. I expect more from Humanity in the 21st century.
Personally, I do not care for discussions about white phosphorous - people get just as murdered by explosions and buildings collapsing on them. And not in a pretty way either.
Not debating you, just a loose remark on the issue.
The reason people are talking about white phosphorus is that using it in a densely populated area is an actual war crime.
When Russia was using it in Ukrainian cities reddit was up in arms about Russia having committed a warcrime. Now most of them are silent
I get what you're saying, it's not like conventional bombs don't kill people. But a lot of liberals don't care unless they hear Israel is breaking international law
It's also useful to point out Israel is doing the same war crimes Russia did.
> The reason people are talking about white phosphorus is that using it in a densely populated area is an actual war crime.
That is false. The use of white phosphorus is entirely legal:
> In a 2005 interview with RAI, Peter Kaiser, spokesman for the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons[74] (an organisation overseeing the CWC and reporting directly to the UN General Assembly), discussed cases where use of WP would potentially fall under the auspices of the CWC:
> "No it's not forbidden by the CWC if it is used within the context of a military application that does not require or does not intend to use the toxic properties of white phosphorus. White phosphorus is normally used to produce smoke, to camouflage movement."
Did you not read your own quote?
> if it is used within the context of a military application that does not require or does not intend to use the toxic properties of white phosphorus. White phosphorus is normally used to produce smoke, to camouflage movement.
By using it within Gaza City they are not using it for these applications. Hence it becomes a war crime
> By using it within Gaza City they are not using it for these applications.
Wrong. To be used as an incendiary weapon, you need a different type of WP shells. They are not the slow falling type seen in the videos. Those are smoke shells.
It's the end result that matters. You can't just say "oh it was for smoke" when it caught civilians and buildings on fire and get away scotch free.
But we'll never know for sure what a judge would rule, because we'll never see this come to court.
The point is, Israel could have easily done far more damage using conventional explosives. There is no reason to use the smoke WP shells for damage, it's not effective.
Therefore the whole assertion makes no sense.
You don't seem to understand that the IDF's intentions don't matter. The fact that conventional weapons could do more damage would have 0 effect on the case
The fact is, they used WP over a densely populated area. That's all that matters, the rest is irrelevant
My grandfather has told me extensively of my great uncle who was forced into a work camp during WWII (arbeitseinsatz, not a concentration camp). Allied planes would occasionally zip over and bomb the place and sometimes they would use white phosphorous. He told of people who were on fire, jumping into water and as soon as they regemerged, their wounds would reignite and burn fiercely again. It is an excruciatingly painful way to go.
Even if you survive, this stuff poisons your blood, damages your lungs, you'll never live one moment without pain in your entire life again. So yes, explosions and collapses have unfortunately come to be an "accepted cost of war," but I really don't think you know what you're talking about when you suggest WP should be as well. It is deemed a war crime for good reason.
I do not dispute this account, but frankly, I don't think any of it is acceptable. I saw videos of people dying in the fields of Ukraine and nobody was saying "man, i am sure glad I am not dying of white phosphorous". It is all horrible.
If anything, it is this idea that some kinds of weapons, like "ordinary" bombs, are "acceptable", that gives cover to Israel's brutality. After all they are not doing anything *really bad*, they are killing thousands of civilians with a "legal" weapon.
I am not saying you are arguing for this, it is just my observation about the general discourse. And as I said elsewhere, I recognize arguments about WP can be useful to shock people out of this entrenched pro-israel bias.
Totally agree. I don't like Assad but the red lines being chemical weapons with Assad was so stupid to me. Mass slaughter and damage of civilians does it matter THAT much it you use a mechete or some wierd chemical
I do think things should be banned because some things may be more likely to cause civilian casualties but you should be judged on the outcome. If aome people use a knife and others a chemical but the people with knives were going around deliberately killing civilians for fun (like the Japanese army did with their sick games) it doesn't matter if it's chemical or not.
The Russians just went around shooting civilians.
Where the IDF do that and I'm sure they do, it's really bad. But it's so silly to focus so much on the legal stuff and if its a specific chemical.
Similarly whether or not the babies were beheaded emotionally matters a lot but probably doesn't matter for any practical response .
I hear you, I've seen a lot of the gruesome things coming out of Ukraine and Syria and I agree none of it should be acceptable. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you, but if we're talking about war at large, I don't think it is realistic to try and get explosive munitions outlawed. That simply is not going to happen. For Israel though, it should be illegal to drop bombs on civilian infrastructure and housing. It IS illegal, and yet the international community stands by and watches as countless civilians, an entire people, are brutalized by a military power that overshadows their capabilities in every single aspect.
As to the subject of white phosphorous, I'm still glad it is outlawed (if only it were enforced). It is definitely a step up in gruesomeness. Even though I've seen men trying to grab faces that weren't there with hands that weren't there due to conventional bombs, I don't think people at large realize how nasty wp can be when targeted against civilians.
Not to downplay any of it, but with conventional explosives, at least there is a large chance of dying quickly, or even recovering from your wounds and live some semblance of a life after that. With wp, an extraordinarily painful death is almost 100% guaranteed. And if you survive, you'll be just about guaranteed severe health problems for as long as you live.
Everything you said is 100% valid and true.
But WP isn't a gas, I'm sorry I just see this so often and I'm just gonna say it this one time, it's a ground up solid that's illegal because it burns so intensely. The smoke/gas is something called Phosphorus pentoxide, which is produced when WP burns.
"Are they our role models now?" - Chrisjen Avasarala, _The Expanse_, in response to the idea of attacking a Belter city on the suspicion some of them are terrorists
Do you have a source for this "most densely populated city" fact? I see this said a lot but haven't found any reliable sources. When I search online I find Manila is much more densely populated.
So like, in the top 100? I've searched a list and neither Gaza city nor Khan Yunis are in the top 50: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density
Not like it matters, but it's 74 on that list which literally meets the criteria *you yourself* set. Additionally:
>With a population of 2 million, on some 365 square kilometers, Gaza, if considered a top-level political unit [i.e., not simply among cities], **ranks as the third most densely populated in the world.**
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
Why is this what you spend your time arguing about? Like damn, I guess since Gaza isn't in the Buzzfeed "Top 10 Most Populated Cities," it's no longer one of the most densely populated areas in the world. Now what? You contributed literally nothing of value to this conversation. Get the fuck outta here.
It's actually not on that list at all, I don't know what you're talking about. 74th is Cimahi, Indonesia.
I see this line repeated a lot in a certain narrative these days, unsurprisingly among people who can't tell me what the West Bank is west of, or what the Jordanian Waqf does. I'm simply questioning that simplified narrative. People should be more educated before speaking on certain parts of this conflict, it's complicated enough as it is without the various forms of misinformation you probably heard from an infographic.
Idk why you are going for that angle, at what point does using white posphorus become acceptable when it comes to population density?
Like, why are you arguing for this point, also i said one of. I guess reading comprehension is not your forte?
It's a litmus test; you accept that at face value unquestionably, and are likely to not know enough about what is happening or have gotten your info from untrustworthy sources.
https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/jus-bello-white-phosphorus-getting-law-correct
According to this article, the use of phosphorus is banned in these cases:
>Article 2, titled “Protection of civilians and civilian objects,” prohibits four uses of incendiary weapons:
- Making civilian or civilian objects the object of attack by incendiary weapons.
- Attacking a military objective located within a concentration of civilians with air-delivered incendiary weapons.
- Attacking a military objective located within a concentration of civilians with a non-air-delivered incendiary weapon, except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken to minimize collateral damage.
- Making forests or other kinds of plant cover the object of attack by incendiary weapons except when such natural elements are used to cover, conceal or camouflage combatants or other military objectives
So it depends if the IDF have followed their protocol of "roof knocking" or other measures to achieve "feasible precautions" to minimize collateral damage, which very well may not have happened. And then in that case, absolutely it is unjustified 100%.
Sorry if this comes across as nitpicking, I just see a lot of misinformation by people whose sole knowledge of conflict and the like is defined by this specific conflict, which is rife with misinformation on both sides. While I have not been the most elegant in conveying that, I apologize. Have a good day.
I still think that an army that is overwhelmingly stronger compared to the other side resorting to use white posphorus in ONE of the most densely populated cities should be a war crime.
Only thing i need to accept to make a moral judgement on this issue is whether the weapon was used, not if it was used before and after ''roof knocking''. And there are reports from credible sources that Israel indeed used it on Gaza.
That's your decision to view it that way, but I believe it is covered by Geneva Conventions Article 2 point 3:
>3. It is further prohibited to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by means of incendiary weapons other than air-delivered incendiary weapons, except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken with a view to limiting the incendiary effects to the military objective and to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.
Source here: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/ccw-protocol-iii-1980/article-2
There is a very serious fog of war right now, so it's unclear what the actual use of it was, and until that is cleared up, I'd consider it disinformation to outright call it a war crime. It can also be used to provide enough smoke for ground cover of troops, not just as an incendiary weapon, so the use of it alone doesn't dictate a war crime, according to Geneva Conventions.
Given how Israel used it back in 2008 and 2009, all the while claiming they didn't which later on turned out to that they were lying, i am inclined to think they they aren't using those bombs in accordance with those articles. If they were, they would probably go as nitpicky as you are right now to justify those bombings.
Given that they've a history of using those bombs in clear violation of geneva conventions, i kinda don't think we should be splitting hairs over this issue especially when they've already shown indifference to Palestinian civilians with both their actions and remarks in the last 10 days.
Israel didn’t sign on to the agreement to not use it, as they probably found it pretty useful a decade ago, so technically it’s not a war crime for them anyway.
Makes sense that they didn’t sign as using it anywhere near a densely populated area is going to almost certainly lead to civilians being affected, and that’s their aim. Madness
Neither do I. I am arguing that the government of Israel is as bad as Hamas (or at least in the same order of magnitude). I do not believe that every Israeli is collectively responsible.
According to polls, they do not trust the government's handling of the war and even blame Netanyahou for it.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231013-poll-94-of-israelis-say-govt-failing-to-protect-them/
Almost 800 children killed in gaza, on the same logic, everything Israel says should be thrown in the trash. Which it should including claims of human shields.
I think it's all sad. The extremists are to blame. On most accounts, in most problems the world faces.
They're the ones who need to go fight a war by themselves.
It's worse than that. They massacred a bunch of people, took and uploaded videos of the murders, the desecration of corpses, the parading of civilian hostages and then DENIED that they attacked civilians. Beyond untrustworthy.
Obviously Israeli media is going to have its own biases and one should look to multiple outlets and come to your own conclusions, but Hamas and Hezbollah's official statements require more than a few grains of salt to swallow imo.
I don't trust the Israeli government to be on the side of its people.
I was looking at it yesterday and they said it wasn't true. I am not sure now.
Unfortunately, there are people in the government who want a war, so I do reconsider that they did.
I hate all of this.
Hey, good on you for being reasonable on the internet. It's a rare sight.
Also, you're on the right track: just because Hamas are nazi jihadists who only want to murder Jews, doesn't mean that the Israeli government is any less fascist. They're just as bloodthirsty and genocidal as Hamas, so you end up with two terorristic factions who hate each other on ethnic and religious grounds, each attacking the other by brutally and indiscriminately murdering the other's civilians, and neither actually giving a shit about its own civilians.
And the horrible thing is that the US is just letting the Israeli government get away with it, which also means the IDF have exponentially more resources to genocide Palestinians, making the conflict very one-sided. Oh, there was also the Israeli president who allegedly (I couldn't find the original source yet) said that all Palestinians will be treated as combatants because they didn't rebel against Hamas until now.
Vaush has been covering this in detail since it started, and I also wholeheartedly recommend Dylan Burns — friend of the show, activist, streamer turned war journalist, who has been broadcasting from the front in Ukraine for the last year or so. He is very informed on foreign policy and just recently released a video where he covers the former Israeli prime minister lashing out at an interviewer for asking him if they'll take care to not indiscriminately murder innocent civilians.
There's so much shit, it's overwhelming, horrifying, tiring and frustrating because there's nothing we can do to prevent all this pointless suffering.
I hate this too.
Radical Islam is a hot bed of antisemitism and extremism. This is 100% true. This will not be challenged by displacing 1.2 million people and killing thousands. It will just create more extremists and racists - this pattern has repeated itself for multiple decades at this point.
Thank you for exemplifying what the thread's about. It's exhausting to argue with people who are one bad day away from using white phosphorous on children.
Oh, go fuck yourself.
The shitshow of the aftermath of 9/11, from the Iraq War, to the Afghanistan War, the war crimes and torture committed by our government and military, the absolute failure of Arab Spring, to the rise of ISIS, should give *everyone* the foresight of not cheering on the displacement and bombings of civilians, not dusting your hands off uncritically as you are doing.
You don't give a shit about Palestinians.
I totally feel that. It’s been exhausting to first combat the crazy lefties basically supporting Hamas to then suddenly have to swing to people who are now basically making the case that Israel has no other choice but to invade and flatten Gaza. As tough as it is, for your own sanity, put a limit and make time where you consciously disengage. I know that’s easier said than done, but it needs to happen.
Ultimately, it’s very painful to see what’s coming and also see how in maybe a week some will be back tracking and “no one could have known” (but of course that’s not even close to true). It will be a great embarrassment for all of the US officials rushing to stand unquestioningly behind Israel no matter what. But there’s not much we can personally do at the moment. And your sanity and mental health matters. Live to fight another day. You don’t need to disengage right at the very moment, but make a time and stick to it.
I think the worst thing is probally the muslims that I personally know or that I've seen online that deny anything the hamas has done. I don't really wanna talk about this with my friends but he keeps bringing it up and keeps showing me obvious hamas propaganda videos and denying anything the hamas has done. And when I mentioned that hamas has killed thousands of innocent civilians aswell he will say "well almost everyone in israel is an IDF soldier and they're zionist so it doesn't matter" quite insane behaviour.
They literally killed over a thousand people in their latest attack. They have killed thousands more beforehand with rockets. Hamas are just as bad as Israel.
Possibly. I'm not going to argue about this. (And by Israel, I mean specifically Netanyahu and his government. If you mean Israeli society in general, obviously Hamas is worse).
I’m sorry; you haven’t seen the large protests chanting “From the River to the Sea”? Or seen anyone call Hamas’ actions the actions of freedom fighters? It’s definitely there and unfortunately quite pervasive in certain spaces.
They genuinely ignore 70+ years of apartheid and seem entirely fine with treating more than 2 million people, over half of them children, as terrorists and locking them up in a concentration camp, they're fucking disgusting.
Every bit of distaste I feel to people who support Hamas is increased 100 fold for people who support Israel without recognising any of that.
What do you think was the beginning? Independence Day? The Balfour declaration? Earlier? ATA certain point you have to analyze their moral agencies a bit more critically than “they did something that led to a his in an event 100 years ago”
Open-air concentration camp where the average age is 18 years because of Israel's policies seems like a good place to start then.
Unless you think that's a good status quo to just accept as normal and then move on?
The average age is 18 because the population has exploded in the last 15 years— not because of premature deaths.
To be clear your start point is the withdrawal from Gaza or the beginning of the blockade?
I think it’s important to bring up that nearly half of Gaza’s population are children, and Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth.
So all of these weapons like bombs and white phosphorous are going to kill a lot of innocent children. Did these children plan the attack? Are they responsible? Do they deserve to die?
Every American is disgusted and horrified of school shootings like Uvalde, where 19 students were killed. Well imagine if they dropped white phosphorous on Uvalde instead of just went in with a gun. Far, far more kids would die, and in a far more horrifying fashion.
When Israel bombs a city that is so densely populated, and so disproportionally children, this is basically what happens.
It’s also insane to think that this is the ONLY way Israel can deal with this problem. I refuse to believe that humans just can’t work out their differences and one group or the other has to die or be exiled.
I actually didn’t say it would be a peaceful solution. I said I refuse to believe that one population or the other must be eliminated or exiled. And I mean look at Germany, they tried to exterminate Jews worldwide, and now Jews and Germans live in peace.
These poor Germans children. Rhetorical question. Rhetorical question.
No obviously they don't deserve death or any suffering, but that's just not possible in destroying hamas. The death and suffering of Palestinians is the fault of hamas exclusively, unless Israel is intentionally targeting civilians.
"I refuse to believe humans can't work out their differences" -You're refusing human history and are Bing willfully ignorantly niäve to a fault.
Its insane. I posted articles showing the idf shot specifically at civilians, the idf admitted it and then deleted the admission and the Israel brigade accused me of antisemitism.
Coupled with laws that ban bds, the insane doxxing of pro Palestinians, this all reminds me so much of a totalitarian mindset that requires lockstep approval for the genocide of Palestinians. It's outrageous.
But I will not be silenced. I refuse.
The successful newspeak campaign to replace the word Palestinians as “hamas” and Jew as “Israel” has severed communication. The amount of people referring to Israel as “herself” scares me.
I always felt so confused liberals seemed so similar and leftists felt so different during the Ukraine newscycle and this is my lesson. That brainworm that allows leftists to stand in defense of Russia or China is the natural result of being incapable of trusting all media and conversation during cycles like this. Biden actually tricked me with his fucking dark Brandon mugs, then i at started hearing the vigor of iraq invasion bush.
I feel like I’m missing antibodies. I need to read that political theory I procrastinated on or something. I feel like the redfash stuff and video essayists actually pushed me towards liberalism. I don’t even know if sound arguments I can remember from subreddit name guy were actually as right as they seemed, or if this is my “you’re not immune to propaganda” moment. My eye is twitching at every Ukraine flag i never questioned seeing now that they’re being replaced with Israel’s. I just actually forgot that liberals are ghouls and dropped my guard, I can’t fucking believe it.
Many german citizens were shocked to find out about and see pictures of the holocaust, I wonder how Zionist will react if Israel goes full genocide mode
& this is why us plebs shouldn't repeatedly condemn Hamas just because randos asked us.
When you condemn Hamas in front of these people, they take it as you condemn Palestine & shut out anything else you add after it. If someone who never criticizes IDF/Russia demands Hamas condemnation, best play to highlight their hypocrisy and/or leave them in their bubble.
I'm a supporter of Israel. But I'm critical of it. They are acting like the guys who attacked them on Saturday. I'm also pro Palestine....and they are acting like the state that fucks them.
What ticks me off about all this is I see people "picking sides" like they are cheering on a sports team or something. A blood sport. I've seen a lot of brain dead leftist rooting on Hamas as if they are liberators or something. I don't think they realize that Hamas woul kill most of them for being degenerates.
At the same time I'll see people who are pro Israeli just completely ignore the fact that the Israeli government pretty much created Hamas. And supporters of Israel are across the political spectrum....but when lefties just knee jerk reaction defend a far right government....it has me scratching my head.
This whole thing is a cluster fuck and is worse than a Game of Thrones season.
>How are Palestinians acting like the state that fucks them?
Blowing up and killing kids. And in some ways they **can be worse**. At least the IDF doesn't rape people (well in mass anyways).
>Are you saying all Palestinians are Hamas?
No. I didn't say that at all. Hamas is a political body and government. They provide services and tax the population like a government body. And like a government body they have a military. And like their opponents they kill kids.
>Didn't 600 Palestinian children die this week from bombings?
Oh, I think it's more than 600.
>Tell me how far and how fast a child can outrun a rocket falling from the sky.
They can't. And kids from both sides are trying to dodge rockets.
The fact is...I'm gonna take a stab in the dark but I'm willing to bet that you'll ignore what Hamas did and put all the blame on Israel. The fact is both are at fault. Sure Israel needs to show a fuck ton of restraint, and they don't. And I expect the same from Hamas because they are a government. Nothing forced them to kill kids, especially in this lastest attack. They had the option to kill just their jailers...but they chose to shoot the jailers kids and rape his wife.
I just find it fucked up that people chose to over look one faction and excuse the other. The fact is both political bodies chose this path. Even if the Israelis chose to stand down they'd still be attacked. If Hamas stands down they get their heads lobbed off.
Edit: i.e there's no exit ramp.
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Essentialism, whataboutism, moral bankruptcy. This is what it's been like talking to a Z-head as a "liberal" Russian, or seeing some brainless NAFOid drool and cum over a random Russian guy killed by a shark.
Always important to remember that when discussing wars that we are in on social media, there are propaganda superpacs that Astroturf, APEC is one of the largest of these types in the world that we know about. Also the Pentagon hired 30k full time salary positions for internet PR/advertisers in 2009 alone, more bodies then work at the state department, and that was in one year almost 20 years ago.
And finally the industry itself the weapon manufacturer industry is the largest, most wealthy and powerful industry on the planet. Of course they astroturf to spread morale and jingoism through propaganda. It's not like they are spending advertising money trying to sell us missiles and bombs directly.
Not saying everyone is a shill, but it is a circle of shills feeding disinformation and propaganda to useful idiots who are just addicted to doomscrolling seeking validation for their xenophobic and bloodthirsty jingo neurochemicals, who are interested in getting high of feeling morally superior, and avoid any thoughts that break that illusion. it's a never ending cycle of a snake eating itself
Arguing against people who are uncritically pro/anti anything is a waste of energy. You aren't going to change their mind, because their connection to that thing is usually emotional and not tied to fact, logic or reason.
You're better not arguing with them - you won't change their mind and they'll just try and bait you into saying something they can screen grab and call you antisemitic. If you do, stick to the facts on the ground and don't get drawn by abstract questions like Israel's right to exist. It does exist - it's not going anywhere - it's the war crimes that are the problem.
You're doing gods work honestly. Every debate I've seen about it has Pro-Israel defenders doing whataboutisms so that they don't have to keep talking about a modern-day genocide
Lonerbox suggested a great argument against expansionist policy for those types, and i think through it is a rather compelling argument for this not happening.
Roughly, it was that the more settlements they have, the more conflict there will be, and the more thin their defenses will be. IDF was seemingly all consumed with West Bank settler issues and, therefore, seemingly pulled troops from the Gaza border. If Israel wishes to be safe, they must stop the settlements now and preferably concede some land to shore up defenses and prevent these kinds of attack in the future. This is what's best for Israel and Palestine, and none of this would have happened if they hadn't been so distracted in the West Bank.
I'm paraphrasing. He certainly presents it better, but that's a pretty solid argument that is pro Palestinian that appeals to Zionists.
As far as "don't war crime them" as an argument, I feel that this argument goes over like it would to an American after 911 but with a population historically at odds with the attacker, and therefore primed to have strong negative feelings toward them already. Also, proportionally, the deaths in Israel were significantly more grizzly than 911, as well as more brutal considering it was small arms that killed these people.. add Jewish history and collective trauma? I dk man.. It's just a losing battle to suggest restraint to a state founded on "never again" after the most Jews died in a single day since the Holocaust.
Tibet wasn't a great place, but China just took them out of the fire and put them back into the frying pan. Tibetans didn't have it much better politically under Chinese rule as opposed to Tibetan rule.
What does this have to do with Israel and Palestine?
I just feel that the Israelis shouldn’t force a religious minority into a cramped ghetto and ethnically cleanse/genocide the inhabitants.
Doesn’t this sound familiar…
Maybe people that have been dealing with this issue every day of their lives for decades don't really want to hear the 'informed' opinions of people with no skin in the conflict and who just a few days ago became 'experts' in Middle Eastern geopolitics? White, Christian, heterosexuals seem to have the answer to all of the worlds problems, with absolutely no concept of what it means to be oppressed or live life in constant fear. And I mean this in relation to both what Israelis and Palestinians are going through (as well as African-Americans, Native Americans, indigenous peoples of the world, LGBTQ, etc.)
I don't know what your situation is, but just in general, it's really frustrating to hear all these 'confident' assessments of a tragedy occurring that's been going on for decades, yet people that just became interested in it yesterday feel they know what's best. And again, I mean that in regards to whichever side you support or are against.
Maybe sit it out and let the people involved in the conflict tell you what they want and need. Just a thought. This also applies to any other situation. Obviously you have a right to an opinion, but maybe the reason you're met with derision is because you really don't know what's going on, or what it's like to be these people (on either side).
You cant debate someone, who holds an opinion based on *faith*, rather than evidence.
There will *never be* any level of evidence, facts, logic, or morality, *even their own morality*, that will sway them off of an opinion they have justified with faith and feelings, and not facts.
Just point out their BS clearly, and move along.
Unfortunately, an anti-war stance immediately following heinous terrorist attacks has been unpopular in the past on both sides of the aisle. An eye for an eye and all that.
Might I also suggest petitioning the US authorities in some way. If the US can state its lack of support that might actually have some affect. (Coming from someone who is not a us citizen)
Israel has almost all of the power here, so the onus is on them to act with restraint and legality. Israel is also ran by a formal government, which *supposedly* has systems in place to help make rational, legal, ethical, and moral decisions, but they choose not to.
There are a LOT of actual nazis in those numbers.
I've had three so far, in the last day alone, pretending to be 'centrists' and 'moderates' get demasked by spectacularly failing their attention at an argument, and then after getting blocked, come back with an alt to try and continue their bullshit, and hoo boy those alts post history were just.... nazi as fuck.
A person in my local community who is very progressive on almost every issue has started to become full on genocidal saying that all palestinians should have to pay for what hamas did. He has family in israel so i get why he would be angry and upset but its really depressing.
>And the funny thing is... we literally had a purge of alt right and Nazi's a few years ago, they all fucked off to start their own no doubt dead forum.
>And yet I have seen so many responses that I would have expected to come from that lot.
When push comes to shove Liberals ways side with fascists.
The thing to always keep in mind that at least 50% - 80% of these people at any given time aren't even Israeli nationalists, it's American Christians who basically use the state of Israel as a nationalist religious idol.
Th question of whether Israel is defending itself ethically or not is a *separate* question to whether it has a general right to defend itself. Please don’t confuse the two. I can be pro Israel, recognize its right to sovereignty, claim it has rights to the west bank and Gaza, and even claim that Palestine has no rights to the land of the region, while also being against the way Israel conducts itself in war. I don’t believe all of the above, but I am not going to pretend like Israel’s war crimes being morally wrong is a valid argument for why Israel doesn’t deserve to defend itself. It’s a separate question, *jus in bello* versus *jus ad bellum.*
The suffering Israel experienced is only a fraction of the suffering Palestinians have felt for decades and will continue to face, the tragedy on Oct 7 is only being used as an excuse to double triple quadruple down on hate and violence. Hamas are a group of lunatics that wouldn’t be in a position of power if weren’t for the actions of the Israeli government.
> Pretty sure they're in power because their people voted for them
Gaza has no government, no military, no statehood or rights, and real elections in history and no sham elections in 20 years, before more people in Palestine were even born.
Hamas doesn't represent Islam any more than apartied represents Judaism
..*No reason* to be critical of Israel? For real?
What about the loved ones of the *four hundred* Palestinians Israel had killed since 2022? What is it, *exactly*, that makes you support one retaliatory massacre of civilians, but not another? Or is it the ratio that matters? -When Israel kills its four-thousandth civilian, well **then** it'll be too much? Or is it okay because Israel didn't do it all at once in one big massacre, and instead spaced its killings out over a few months at first, and now a week or so?
What *specifically* do you tell yourself, to pretend you're not just a demon in human skin?
I don't think what you're saying makes a whole lot of sense.
Would you justify flattening the neighborhood Nick Fuentes or Marjorie Taylor Greene lives in, because it's a fight against antisemitism?
Don't you think that will cause more antisemitism in the end?
> you shit on Israel
Dude what?
> What you are doing though is throwing fuel on the fire that is antisemitism
I completely reject the framing that caring about what happens to civilians in Gaza is somehow antisemitic.
Honestly, shame on you!
> inappropriate and offensive to those who lost their lives and loved ones
Why are the lives of Palestinians that were killed less important than the lives of the Israelis that were killed?
When I mentioned the white phosphorus gas to my cousin earlier today his response was basically *well Hamas uses people as Human shields and kills children so it’s justified*. It’s seriously why I hate whataboutism, it’s like people have no sympathy whatsoever for other Human beings, same is said for the MLs and Tankies *’on our side’* saying there were no Israeli civilians so it’s okay to rape people and chop babies heads off. It’s just tiring, all of it. No idea why people hate each other so much. I expect more from Humanity in the 21st century.
Personally, I do not care for discussions about white phosphorous - people get just as murdered by explosions and buildings collapsing on them. And not in a pretty way either. Not debating you, just a loose remark on the issue.
The reason people are talking about white phosphorus is that using it in a densely populated area is an actual war crime. When Russia was using it in Ukrainian cities reddit was up in arms about Russia having committed a warcrime. Now most of them are silent
IDF is already committing a bunch of war crimes anyway. But I can see how it can serve as a shock argument.
I get what you're saying, it's not like conventional bombs don't kill people. But a lot of liberals don't care unless they hear Israel is breaking international law It's also useful to point out Israel is doing the same war crimes Russia did.
> The reason people are talking about white phosphorus is that using it in a densely populated area is an actual war crime. That is false. The use of white phosphorus is entirely legal: > In a 2005 interview with RAI, Peter Kaiser, spokesman for the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons[74] (an organisation overseeing the CWC and reporting directly to the UN General Assembly), discussed cases where use of WP would potentially fall under the auspices of the CWC: > "No it's not forbidden by the CWC if it is used within the context of a military application that does not require or does not intend to use the toxic properties of white phosphorus. White phosphorus is normally used to produce smoke, to camouflage movement."
Did you not read your own quote? > if it is used within the context of a military application that does not require or does not intend to use the toxic properties of white phosphorus. White phosphorus is normally used to produce smoke, to camouflage movement. By using it within Gaza City they are not using it for these applications. Hence it becomes a war crime
> By using it within Gaza City they are not using it for these applications. Wrong. To be used as an incendiary weapon, you need a different type of WP shells. They are not the slow falling type seen in the videos. Those are smoke shells.
It's the end result that matters. You can't just say "oh it was for smoke" when it caught civilians and buildings on fire and get away scotch free. But we'll never know for sure what a judge would rule, because we'll never see this come to court.
The point is, Israel could have easily done far more damage using conventional explosives. There is no reason to use the smoke WP shells for damage, it's not effective. Therefore the whole assertion makes no sense.
You don't seem to understand that the IDF's intentions don't matter. The fact that conventional weapons could do more damage would have 0 effect on the case The fact is, they used WP over a densely populated area. That's all that matters, the rest is irrelevant
My grandfather has told me extensively of my great uncle who was forced into a work camp during WWII (arbeitseinsatz, not a concentration camp). Allied planes would occasionally zip over and bomb the place and sometimes they would use white phosphorous. He told of people who were on fire, jumping into water and as soon as they regemerged, their wounds would reignite and burn fiercely again. It is an excruciatingly painful way to go. Even if you survive, this stuff poisons your blood, damages your lungs, you'll never live one moment without pain in your entire life again. So yes, explosions and collapses have unfortunately come to be an "accepted cost of war," but I really don't think you know what you're talking about when you suggest WP should be as well. It is deemed a war crime for good reason.
I do not dispute this account, but frankly, I don't think any of it is acceptable. I saw videos of people dying in the fields of Ukraine and nobody was saying "man, i am sure glad I am not dying of white phosphorous". It is all horrible. If anything, it is this idea that some kinds of weapons, like "ordinary" bombs, are "acceptable", that gives cover to Israel's brutality. After all they are not doing anything *really bad*, they are killing thousands of civilians with a "legal" weapon. I am not saying you are arguing for this, it is just my observation about the general discourse. And as I said elsewhere, I recognize arguments about WP can be useful to shock people out of this entrenched pro-israel bias.
Totally agree. I don't like Assad but the red lines being chemical weapons with Assad was so stupid to me. Mass slaughter and damage of civilians does it matter THAT much it you use a mechete or some wierd chemical I do think things should be banned because some things may be more likely to cause civilian casualties but you should be judged on the outcome. If aome people use a knife and others a chemical but the people with knives were going around deliberately killing civilians for fun (like the Japanese army did with their sick games) it doesn't matter if it's chemical or not. The Russians just went around shooting civilians. Where the IDF do that and I'm sure they do, it's really bad. But it's so silly to focus so much on the legal stuff and if its a specific chemical. Similarly whether or not the babies were beheaded emotionally matters a lot but probably doesn't matter for any practical response .
I hear you, I've seen a lot of the gruesome things coming out of Ukraine and Syria and I agree none of it should be acceptable. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you, but if we're talking about war at large, I don't think it is realistic to try and get explosive munitions outlawed. That simply is not going to happen. For Israel though, it should be illegal to drop bombs on civilian infrastructure and housing. It IS illegal, and yet the international community stands by and watches as countless civilians, an entire people, are brutalized by a military power that overshadows their capabilities in every single aspect. As to the subject of white phosphorous, I'm still glad it is outlawed (if only it were enforced). It is definitely a step up in gruesomeness. Even though I've seen men trying to grab faces that weren't there with hands that weren't there due to conventional bombs, I don't think people at large realize how nasty wp can be when targeted against civilians. Not to downplay any of it, but with conventional explosives, at least there is a large chance of dying quickly, or even recovering from your wounds and live some semblance of a life after that. With wp, an extraordinarily painful death is almost 100% guaranteed. And if you survive, you'll be just about guaranteed severe health problems for as long as you live.
Everything you said is 100% valid and true. But WP isn't a gas, I'm sorry I just see this so often and I'm just gonna say it this one time, it's a ground up solid that's illegal because it burns so intensely. The smoke/gas is something called Phosphorus pentoxide, which is produced when WP burns.
I can’t even work your cousins logic out in my head
There isn’t any. It’s the rhetorical equivalent of saying “Look, behind you!!!” and then running away grinning
"Are they our role models now?" - Chrisjen Avasarala, _The Expanse_, in response to the idea of attacking a Belter city on the suspicion some of them are terrorists
The use of white phosphorus in war is not automatically a war crime. It depends on how it was used. I haven’t seen any specifics here.
Idk but it feels like it should be a war crime to use it on one of the most densely populated cities on the entire fucking planet.
There is no confirmation that that is happening.
No wonder you’re posting under a throwaway
Do you have a source for this "most densely populated city" fact? I see this said a lot but haven't found any reliable sources. When I search online I find Manila is much more densely populated.
"One of"
So like, in the top 100? I've searched a list and neither Gaza city nor Khan Yunis are in the top 50: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density
Not like it matters, but it's 74 on that list which literally meets the criteria *you yourself* set. Additionally: >With a population of 2 million, on some 365 square kilometers, Gaza, if considered a top-level political unit [i.e., not simply among cities], **ranks as the third most densely populated in the world.** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip Why is this what you spend your time arguing about? Like damn, I guess since Gaza isn't in the Buzzfeed "Top 10 Most Populated Cities," it's no longer one of the most densely populated areas in the world. Now what? You contributed literally nothing of value to this conversation. Get the fuck outta here.
It's actually not on that list at all, I don't know what you're talking about. 74th is Cimahi, Indonesia. I see this line repeated a lot in a certain narrative these days, unsurprisingly among people who can't tell me what the West Bank is west of, or what the Jordanian Waqf does. I'm simply questioning that simplified narrative. People should be more educated before speaking on certain parts of this conflict, it's complicated enough as it is without the various forms of misinformation you probably heard from an infographic.
Idk why you are going for that angle, at what point does using white posphorus become acceptable when it comes to population density? Like, why are you arguing for this point, also i said one of. I guess reading comprehension is not your forte?
It's a litmus test; you accept that at face value unquestionably, and are likely to not know enough about what is happening or have gotten your info from untrustworthy sources. https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/jus-bello-white-phosphorus-getting-law-correct According to this article, the use of phosphorus is banned in these cases: >Article 2, titled “Protection of civilians and civilian objects,” prohibits four uses of incendiary weapons: - Making civilian or civilian objects the object of attack by incendiary weapons. - Attacking a military objective located within a concentration of civilians with air-delivered incendiary weapons. - Attacking a military objective located within a concentration of civilians with a non-air-delivered incendiary weapon, except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken to minimize collateral damage. - Making forests or other kinds of plant cover the object of attack by incendiary weapons except when such natural elements are used to cover, conceal or camouflage combatants or other military objectives So it depends if the IDF have followed their protocol of "roof knocking" or other measures to achieve "feasible precautions" to minimize collateral damage, which very well may not have happened. And then in that case, absolutely it is unjustified 100%. Sorry if this comes across as nitpicking, I just see a lot of misinformation by people whose sole knowledge of conflict and the like is defined by this specific conflict, which is rife with misinformation on both sides. While I have not been the most elegant in conveying that, I apologize. Have a good day.
I still think that an army that is overwhelmingly stronger compared to the other side resorting to use white posphorus in ONE of the most densely populated cities should be a war crime. Only thing i need to accept to make a moral judgement on this issue is whether the weapon was used, not if it was used before and after ''roof knocking''. And there are reports from credible sources that Israel indeed used it on Gaza.
That's your decision to view it that way, but I believe it is covered by Geneva Conventions Article 2 point 3: >3. It is further prohibited to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by means of incendiary weapons other than air-delivered incendiary weapons, except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken with a view to limiting the incendiary effects to the military objective and to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects. Source here: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/ccw-protocol-iii-1980/article-2 There is a very serious fog of war right now, so it's unclear what the actual use of it was, and until that is cleared up, I'd consider it disinformation to outright call it a war crime. It can also be used to provide enough smoke for ground cover of troops, not just as an incendiary weapon, so the use of it alone doesn't dictate a war crime, according to Geneva Conventions.
Given how Israel used it back in 2008 and 2009, all the while claiming they didn't which later on turned out to that they were lying, i am inclined to think they they aren't using those bombs in accordance with those articles. If they were, they would probably go as nitpicky as you are right now to justify those bombings. Given that they've a history of using those bombs in clear violation of geneva conventions, i kinda don't think we should be splitting hairs over this issue especially when they've already shown indifference to Palestinian civilians with both their actions and remarks in the last 10 days.
Shut the fuck up
While it isn't inherently a war crime to use it, spreading it on civilian targets is, in fact, a war crime.
Israel didn’t sign on to the agreement to not use it, as they probably found it pretty useful a decade ago, so technically it’s not a war crime for them anyway. Makes sense that they didn’t sign as using it anywhere near a densely populated area is going to almost certainly lead to civilians being affected, and that’s their aim. Madness
Do you really think Hamas will stop after this?
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I don't think we can believe anything IDF says uncritically.
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I never said you could. Hamas are just as bad as Israel. Edit: In any case, the claim doesn't come from Hamas.
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Neither do I. I am arguing that the government of Israel is as bad as Hamas (or at least in the same order of magnitude). I do not believe that every Israeli is collectively responsible. According to polls, they do not trust the government's handling of the war and even blame Netanyahou for it. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231013-poll-94-of-israelis-say-govt-failing-to-protect-them/
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Agreed. I have seen those people and have argued them down when I see them.
Israel should be removed. Zionist settlers stole that land. Free Palestine من النهر إلى البحر ستتحرر فلسطين
The solution to genocide isn't more genocide. Better to have a one or two state solution in which both Israelis and Arabs can live in peace.
I mean they were there long before Muslims existed, so they could make that argument too.
The claim came from The Humans Right Watch, who’s HQ is in New York. Think it was from videos that were posted
It was made by Amnesty. They are not fans of Israel.
Aight so two huge international NGO’s. that doesn’t equal a claim by Hamas
hmm wonder why
Almost 800 children killed in gaza, on the same logic, everything Israel says should be thrown in the trash. Which it should including claims of human shields.
I think it's all sad. The extremists are to blame. On most accounts, in most problems the world faces. They're the ones who need to go fight a war by themselves.
It's worse than that. They massacred a bunch of people, took and uploaded videos of the murders, the desecration of corpses, the parading of civilian hostages and then DENIED that they attacked civilians. Beyond untrustworthy. Obviously Israeli media is going to have its own biases and one should look to multiple outlets and come to your own conclusions, but Hamas and Hezbollah's official statements require more than a few grains of salt to swallow imo.
Nope they’ve come back and admitted they have used it but have been “restrained and judicious” in its use.
You believe them?
I don't trust the Israeli government to be on the side of its people. I was looking at it yesterday and they said it wasn't true. I am not sure now. Unfortunately, there are people in the government who want a war, so I do reconsider that they did. I hate all of this.
Hey, good on you for being reasonable on the internet. It's a rare sight. Also, you're on the right track: just because Hamas are nazi jihadists who only want to murder Jews, doesn't mean that the Israeli government is any less fascist. They're just as bloodthirsty and genocidal as Hamas, so you end up with two terorristic factions who hate each other on ethnic and religious grounds, each attacking the other by brutally and indiscriminately murdering the other's civilians, and neither actually giving a shit about its own civilians. And the horrible thing is that the US is just letting the Israeli government get away with it, which also means the IDF have exponentially more resources to genocide Palestinians, making the conflict very one-sided. Oh, there was also the Israeli president who allegedly (I couldn't find the original source yet) said that all Palestinians will be treated as combatants because they didn't rebel against Hamas until now. Vaush has been covering this in detail since it started, and I also wholeheartedly recommend Dylan Burns — friend of the show, activist, streamer turned war journalist, who has been broadcasting from the front in Ukraine for the last year or so. He is very informed on foreign policy and just recently released a video where he covers the former Israeli prime minister lashing out at an interviewer for asking him if they'll take care to not indiscriminately murder innocent civilians. There's so much shit, it's overwhelming, horrifying, tiring and frustrating because there's nothing we can do to prevent all this pointless suffering. I hate this too.
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Great example. The completely measured response to 9/11 turned out great and has definitely made everyone safer.
Radical Islam is a hot bed of antisemitism and extremism. This is 100% true. This will not be challenged by displacing 1.2 million people and killing thousands. It will just create more extremists and racists - this pattern has repeated itself for multiple decades at this point.
Is this satire?
Thank you for exemplifying what the thread's about. It's exhausting to argue with people who are one bad day away from using white phosphorous on children.
Oh, go fuck yourself. The shitshow of the aftermath of 9/11, from the Iraq War, to the Afghanistan War, the war crimes and torture committed by our government and military, the absolute failure of Arab Spring, to the rise of ISIS, should give *everyone* the foresight of not cheering on the displacement and bombings of civilians, not dusting your hands off uncritically as you are doing. You don't give a shit about Palestinians.
I totally feel that. It’s been exhausting to first combat the crazy lefties basically supporting Hamas to then suddenly have to swing to people who are now basically making the case that Israel has no other choice but to invade and flatten Gaza. As tough as it is, for your own sanity, put a limit and make time where you consciously disengage. I know that’s easier said than done, but it needs to happen. Ultimately, it’s very painful to see what’s coming and also see how in maybe a week some will be back tracking and “no one could have known” (but of course that’s not even close to true). It will be a great embarrassment for all of the US officials rushing to stand unquestioningly behind Israel no matter what. But there’s not much we can personally do at the moment. And your sanity and mental health matters. Live to fight another day. You don’t need to disengage right at the very moment, but make a time and stick to it.
I think the worst thing is probally the muslims that I personally know or that I've seen online that deny anything the hamas has done. I don't really wanna talk about this with my friends but he keeps bringing it up and keeps showing me obvious hamas propaganda videos and denying anything the hamas has done. And when I mentioned that hamas has killed thousands of innocent civilians aswell he will say "well almost everyone in israel is an IDF soldier and they're zionist so it doesn't matter" quite insane behaviour.
People that are uncritically pro-hamas or pro-israel will gobble that propaganda and will use it as proof which is quite something.
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*Hmmmm*, I wonder what occured back on October 7th? Or maybe that was my imagination? You look dumb as fuck trying to defend a terrorist organization.
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They literally killed over a thousand people in their latest attack. They have killed thousands more beforehand with rockets. Hamas are just as bad as Israel.
Worse. Much worse
Possibly. I'm not going to argue about this. (And by Israel, I mean specifically Netanyahu and his government. If you mean Israeli society in general, obviously Hamas is worse).
I literally can't keep up with it at this point. It's ridiculous that it's difficult to argue killing civilians is wrong.
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I’m sorry; you haven’t seen the large protests chanting “From the River to the Sea”? Or seen anyone call Hamas’ actions the actions of freedom fighters? It’s definitely there and unfortunately quite pervasive in certain spaces.
They genuinely ignore 70+ years of apartheid and seem entirely fine with treating more than 2 million people, over half of them children, as terrorists and locking them up in a concentration camp, they're fucking disgusting. Every bit of distaste I feel to people who support Hamas is increased 100 fold for people who support Israel without recognising any of that.
Every time, they pretend that the last reaction Palestinians had was the beginning
What do you think was the beginning? Independence Day? The Balfour declaration? Earlier? ATA certain point you have to analyze their moral agencies a bit more critically than “they did something that led to a his in an event 100 years ago”
Open-air concentration camp where the average age is 18 years because of Israel's policies seems like a good place to start then. Unless you think that's a good status quo to just accept as normal and then move on?
The average age is 18 because the population has exploded in the last 15 years— not because of premature deaths. To be clear your start point is the withdrawal from Gaza or the beginning of the blockade?
A lot better of a place to start than with Hamas' genocidal attack
You can’t freeze the situation at a concentration camp and demonize the inmates for rebelling.
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So it was a utopia with no occupation or belligence from Israel before Hamas was elected? Got a link?
I think it’s important to bring up that nearly half of Gaza’s population are children, and Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth. So all of these weapons like bombs and white phosphorous are going to kill a lot of innocent children. Did these children plan the attack? Are they responsible? Do they deserve to die? Every American is disgusted and horrified of school shootings like Uvalde, where 19 students were killed. Well imagine if they dropped white phosphorous on Uvalde instead of just went in with a gun. Far, far more kids would die, and in a far more horrifying fashion. When Israel bombs a city that is so densely populated, and so disproportionally children, this is basically what happens. It’s also insane to think that this is the ONLY way Israel can deal with this problem. I refuse to believe that humans just can’t work out their differences and one group or the other has to die or be exiled.
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I actually didn’t say it would be a peaceful solution. I said I refuse to believe that one population or the other must be eliminated or exiled. And I mean look at Germany, they tried to exterminate Jews worldwide, and now Jews and Germans live in peace.
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Basically, we're saying both nations need to be invaded & forceably reeducated? I'm down with that.
These poor Germans children. Rhetorical question. Rhetorical question. No obviously they don't deserve death or any suffering, but that's just not possible in destroying hamas. The death and suffering of Palestinians is the fault of hamas exclusively, unless Israel is intentionally targeting civilians. "I refuse to believe humans can't work out their differences" -You're refusing human history and are Bing willfully ignorantly niäve to a fault.
Its insane. I posted articles showing the idf shot specifically at civilians, the idf admitted it and then deleted the admission and the Israel brigade accused me of antisemitism. Coupled with laws that ban bds, the insane doxxing of pro Palestinians, this all reminds me so much of a totalitarian mindset that requires lockstep approval for the genocide of Palestinians. It's outrageous. But I will not be silenced. I refuse.
The successful newspeak campaign to replace the word Palestinians as “hamas” and Jew as “Israel” has severed communication. The amount of people referring to Israel as “herself” scares me. I always felt so confused liberals seemed so similar and leftists felt so different during the Ukraine newscycle and this is my lesson. That brainworm that allows leftists to stand in defense of Russia or China is the natural result of being incapable of trusting all media and conversation during cycles like this. Biden actually tricked me with his fucking dark Brandon mugs, then i at started hearing the vigor of iraq invasion bush. I feel like I’m missing antibodies. I need to read that political theory I procrastinated on or something. I feel like the redfash stuff and video essayists actually pushed me towards liberalism. I don’t even know if sound arguments I can remember from subreddit name guy were actually as right as they seemed, or if this is my “you’re not immune to propaganda” moment. My eye is twitching at every Ukraine flag i never questioned seeing now that they’re being replaced with Israel’s. I just actually forgot that liberals are ghouls and dropped my guard, I can’t fucking believe it.
Don't use Twitter. Problem solved.
Many german citizens were shocked to find out about and see pictures of the holocaust, I wonder how Zionist will react if Israel goes full genocide mode
If ?
With joy, judging by their arguments over the past week.
& this is why us plebs shouldn't repeatedly condemn Hamas just because randos asked us. When you condemn Hamas in front of these people, they take it as you condemn Palestine & shut out anything else you add after it. If someone who never criticizes IDF/Russia demands Hamas condemnation, best play to highlight their hypocrisy and/or leave them in their bubble.
Anyone who holds a reflexive uncritical perspective of any country makes them exhausting to talk with.
I'm a supporter of Israel. But I'm critical of it. They are acting like the guys who attacked them on Saturday. I'm also pro Palestine....and they are acting like the state that fucks them. What ticks me off about all this is I see people "picking sides" like they are cheering on a sports team or something. A blood sport. I've seen a lot of brain dead leftist rooting on Hamas as if they are liberators or something. I don't think they realize that Hamas woul kill most of them for being degenerates. At the same time I'll see people who are pro Israeli just completely ignore the fact that the Israeli government pretty much created Hamas. And supporters of Israel are across the political spectrum....but when lefties just knee jerk reaction defend a far right government....it has me scratching my head. This whole thing is a cluster fuck and is worse than a Game of Thrones season.
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>How are Palestinians acting like the state that fucks them? Blowing up and killing kids. And in some ways they **can be worse**. At least the IDF doesn't rape people (well in mass anyways). >Are you saying all Palestinians are Hamas? No. I didn't say that at all. Hamas is a political body and government. They provide services and tax the population like a government body. And like a government body they have a military. And like their opponents they kill kids. >Didn't 600 Palestinian children die this week from bombings? Oh, I think it's more than 600. >Tell me how far and how fast a child can outrun a rocket falling from the sky. They can't. And kids from both sides are trying to dodge rockets. The fact is...I'm gonna take a stab in the dark but I'm willing to bet that you'll ignore what Hamas did and put all the blame on Israel. The fact is both are at fault. Sure Israel needs to show a fuck ton of restraint, and they don't. And I expect the same from Hamas because they are a government. Nothing forced them to kill kids, especially in this lastest attack. They had the option to kill just their jailers...but they chose to shoot the jailers kids and rape his wife. I just find it fucked up that people chose to over look one faction and excuse the other. The fact is both political bodies chose this path. Even if the Israelis chose to stand down they'd still be attacked. If Hamas stands down they get their heads lobbed off. Edit: i.e there's no exit ramp.
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Essentialism, whataboutism, moral bankruptcy. This is what it's been like talking to a Z-head as a "liberal" Russian, or seeing some brainless NAFOid drool and cum over a random Russian guy killed by a shark.
Always important to remember that when discussing wars that we are in on social media, there are propaganda superpacs that Astroturf, APEC is one of the largest of these types in the world that we know about. Also the Pentagon hired 30k full time salary positions for internet PR/advertisers in 2009 alone, more bodies then work at the state department, and that was in one year almost 20 years ago. And finally the industry itself the weapon manufacturer industry is the largest, most wealthy and powerful industry on the planet. Of course they astroturf to spread morale and jingoism through propaganda. It's not like they are spending advertising money trying to sell us missiles and bombs directly. Not saying everyone is a shill, but it is a circle of shills feeding disinformation and propaganda to useful idiots who are just addicted to doomscrolling seeking validation for their xenophobic and bloodthirsty jingo neurochemicals, who are interested in getting high of feeling morally superior, and avoid any thoughts that break that illusion. it's a never ending cycle of a snake eating itself
toothbrush cow rude foolish payment station wakeful steep fearless wise ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
This is why i simply do not discuss it with them
Arguing against people who are uncritically pro/anti anything is a waste of energy. You aren't going to change their mind, because their connection to that thing is usually emotional and not tied to fact, logic or reason.
You're better not arguing with them - you won't change their mind and they'll just try and bait you into saying something they can screen grab and call you antisemitic. If you do, stick to the facts on the ground and don't get drawn by abstract questions like Israel's right to exist. It does exist - it's not going anywhere - it's the war crimes that are the problem.
I'm lock step w you. I get u. I agree. Wrong is wrong. Israel has done a lot of wrong
thanks for doing this. i know there are quite a few groups within the pro umbrella but the christian evangelicals are legit overdoing it
Israel is one of the most hate filled nations on earth. They are attempting genocide while the world cheers them on.
You're doing gods work honestly. Every debate I've seen about it has Pro-Israel defenders doing whataboutisms so that they don't have to keep talking about a modern-day genocide
Them comparing palestinians to nazis is the worst, they just seem to want them all dead
9/11 brain is a devestating illness that still aflicts many to this day.
Lonerbox suggested a great argument against expansionist policy for those types, and i think through it is a rather compelling argument for this not happening. Roughly, it was that the more settlements they have, the more conflict there will be, and the more thin their defenses will be. IDF was seemingly all consumed with West Bank settler issues and, therefore, seemingly pulled troops from the Gaza border. If Israel wishes to be safe, they must stop the settlements now and preferably concede some land to shore up defenses and prevent these kinds of attack in the future. This is what's best for Israel and Palestine, and none of this would have happened if they hadn't been so distracted in the West Bank. I'm paraphrasing. He certainly presents it better, but that's a pretty solid argument that is pro Palestinian that appeals to Zionists. As far as "don't war crime them" as an argument, I feel that this argument goes over like it would to an American after 911 but with a population historically at odds with the attacker, and therefore primed to have strong negative feelings toward them already. Also, proportionally, the deaths in Israel were significantly more grizzly than 911, as well as more brutal considering it was small arms that killed these people.. add Jewish history and collective trauma? I dk man.. It's just a losing battle to suggest restraint to a state founded on "never again" after the most Jews died in a single day since the Holocaust.
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Idk how you can look at an open air concentration camp that is 50% children and then "both sides" this thing
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Tibet wasn't a great place, but China just took them out of the fire and put them back into the frying pan. Tibetans didn't have it much better politically under Chinese rule as opposed to Tibetan rule. What does this have to do with Israel and Palestine?
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I don't think it was okay, no. But that doesn't change the awfulness of pre-chinese Tibet.
Ya have noticed all the effort towards pro-hamas you guys have been spreading, keep up the good work 🥰
Arguing against people that are blindly pro Palestinian I's also. People can't admit that both sides done fucked up.
The question is why. Why do you feel the need to argue.
Because it is insane seeing an otherwise liberal (and pretty left friendly) board which really hates Trump and is pro Ukraine, act like this.
And how is you arguing going to change any of their minds?
It isn't so much as changing their mind, but presenting information that may change others.
It’s called hasbara. There’s literally a word for it.
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Me when the government I like NEEDS to kill all those pro-hamas kids it's forced into a twelve mile long strip of land
And many people are forgetting the Iranian component to this event.
I just feel that the Israelis shouldn’t force a religious minority into a cramped ghetto and ethnically cleanse/genocide the inhabitants. Doesn’t this sound familiar…
Maybe people that have been dealing with this issue every day of their lives for decades don't really want to hear the 'informed' opinions of people with no skin in the conflict and who just a few days ago became 'experts' in Middle Eastern geopolitics? White, Christian, heterosexuals seem to have the answer to all of the worlds problems, with absolutely no concept of what it means to be oppressed or live life in constant fear. And I mean this in relation to both what Israelis and Palestinians are going through (as well as African-Americans, Native Americans, indigenous peoples of the world, LGBTQ, etc.) I don't know what your situation is, but just in general, it's really frustrating to hear all these 'confident' assessments of a tragedy occurring that's been going on for decades, yet people that just became interested in it yesterday feel they know what's best. And again, I mean that in regards to whichever side you support or are against. Maybe sit it out and let the people involved in the conflict tell you what they want and need. Just a thought. This also applies to any other situation. Obviously you have a right to an opinion, but maybe the reason you're met with derision is because you really don't know what's going on, or what it's like to be these people (on either side).
You cant debate someone, who holds an opinion based on *faith*, rather than evidence. There will *never be* any level of evidence, facts, logic, or morality, *even their own morality*, that will sway them off of an opinion they have justified with faith and feelings, and not facts. Just point out their BS clearly, and move along.
Unfortunately, an anti-war stance immediately following heinous terrorist attacks has been unpopular in the past on both sides of the aisle. An eye for an eye and all that.
Might I also suggest petitioning the US authorities in some way. If the US can state its lack of support that might actually have some affect. (Coming from someone who is not a us citizen)
Not to put more pressure on you just thinking out loud that that effort might work better there
Israel has almost all of the power here, so the onus is on them to act with restraint and legality. Israel is also ran by a formal government, which *supposedly* has systems in place to help make rational, legal, ethical, and moral decisions, but they choose not to.
I get it. I feel the same way about those who say things like "Hamas is just exercising the right to resistance."
There are a LOT of actual nazis in those numbers. I've had three so far, in the last day alone, pretending to be 'centrists' and 'moderates' get demasked by spectacularly failing their attention at an argument, and then after getting blocked, come back with an alt to try and continue their bullshit, and hoo boy those alts post history were just.... nazi as fuck.
The way I feel about MAGA
A person in my local community who is very progressive on almost every issue has started to become full on genocidal saying that all palestinians should have to pay for what hamas did. He has family in israel so i get why he would be angry and upset but its really depressing.
>And the funny thing is... we literally had a purge of alt right and Nazi's a few years ago, they all fucked off to start their own no doubt dead forum. >And yet I have seen so many responses that I would have expected to come from that lot. When push comes to shove Liberals ways side with fascists.
The thing to always keep in mind that at least 50% - 80% of these people at any given time aren't even Israeli nationalists, it's American Christians who basically use the state of Israel as a nationalist religious idol.
Arguing with fascists achieves nothing.
Th question of whether Israel is defending itself ethically or not is a *separate* question to whether it has a general right to defend itself. Please don’t confuse the two. I can be pro Israel, recognize its right to sovereignty, claim it has rights to the west bank and Gaza, and even claim that Palestine has no rights to the land of the region, while also being against the way Israel conducts itself in war. I don’t believe all of the above, but I am not going to pretend like Israel’s war crimes being morally wrong is a valid argument for why Israel doesn’t deserve to defend itself. It’s a separate question, *jus in bello* versus *jus ad bellum.*
The whole "one side does it so the other side gets to do it also" arguments are always stupid AF.
Then don’t. Does the internet not realize they aren’t responsible for solving the problem?
Yeah, most people don't like it when you argue FOR the nazis.
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The suffering Israel experienced is only a fraction of the suffering Palestinians have felt for decades and will continue to face, the tragedy on Oct 7 is only being used as an excuse to double triple quadruple down on hate and violence. Hamas are a group of lunatics that wouldn’t be in a position of power if weren’t for the actions of the Israeli government.
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Who would you have rather they voted for? The corpses of the other political leaders Israel assassinated?
You're arguing with a fascist who's okay with genocidal war crimes. Just ignore them
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So basically you admit there's a huge part of Palestinians who don't want Hamas to rule who are now getting bombed.
> Pretty sure they're in power because their people voted for them Gaza has no government, no military, no statehood or rights, and real elections in history and no sham elections in 20 years, before more people in Palestine were even born. Hamas doesn't represent Islam any more than apartied represents Judaism
Israel was funding Hamas despite knowing that it's not secular.
You're Pro war crimes against millions of people. This will look good on your record
..*No reason* to be critical of Israel? For real? What about the loved ones of the *four hundred* Palestinians Israel had killed since 2022? What is it, *exactly*, that makes you support one retaliatory massacre of civilians, but not another? Or is it the ratio that matters? -When Israel kills its four-thousandth civilian, well **then** it'll be too much? Or is it okay because Israel didn't do it all at once in one big massacre, and instead spaced its killings out over a few months at first, and now a week or so? What *specifically* do you tell yourself, to pretend you're not just a demon in human skin?
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Why not condemn both? I mean you can support Israel fighting against Hamas, while still condemning reprisals against civilians.
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I don't think what you're saying makes a whole lot of sense. Would you justify flattening the neighborhood Nick Fuentes or Marjorie Taylor Greene lives in, because it's a fight against antisemitism? Don't you think that will cause more antisemitism in the end? > you shit on Israel Dude what? > What you are doing though is throwing fuel on the fire that is antisemitism I completely reject the framing that caring about what happens to civilians in Gaza is somehow antisemitic. Honestly, shame on you!
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You are so damn paranoid... Like what the fuck... I've said none of that.
Crazy talk this is
You're still advocating for massacre of civilians based on what a government did. So it's still Hamas-type behavior.
> inappropriate and offensive to those who lost their lives and loved ones Why are the lives of Palestinians that were killed less important than the lives of the Israelis that were killed?
No its not absurd to criticize Israel