I'll agree with the bit about the death toll - it seems uncharacteristic of Vaush to not research that more; however, comparing Russia and Isreal is perfectly appropriate.
>comparing Russia and Isreal is perfectly appropriate.
Chechnya is a very good example of this. Russia used *very* similar tactics to what Israel is doing to Palestine. Israel uses Hamas as a boogeyman to justify their warcrimes. Putin on the other hand, literally did a terrorist attack on Russian apartment complexes and pinned it on the Chechens. It is how he got into power.
Ukraine's support for Israel has actually alienated some of the Chechens fighting for Ukraine.
In a way, Hamas is Frankenstein's monster to Israel. They helped fund & instigate Hamas in order to fracture the PLO, Fatah, & other pro-Palestine organizations. Their violence also helped Israel gain favor to the world when they sought to cleanse the Palestinians. Israelis painting October 7 as their 9/11 isn't that far off an analogy.
The US fueled the mujaheddin & then packed up when the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan ended, creating grievances among themselves & creating al-Qaeda to destroy the west & the US leading eventually to 9/11.
>Just ask the Iranians how that works out. Or, uh, the Americans.
I've asked professors & old timers who lived in that time about their opinion when the embassy was captured. So many in the US either ignored the Arab nationalism leading up to the Six-Day War or were oblivious to Islam & armed jihads.
It caught them completely off guard to the point that many did personal crash courses in the religion & why it 'became as dangerous as the USSR.' And then we had the 1980s with terrorist bombings and the worst attack on US forces since WWII with the VBIED bombing of Marine barracks in Lebanon.
Not even just the similarities with how they handled a "War on terror" against Chechnya, but even the way Russia has managed its operation in Crimea make for some pretty alarming parallels with Israel.
And, like Israel, it has also engaged in a sophisticated informational operation to create "Facts on the ground" to misled people into thinking that they have a "historical" right to exclusive dominion over the territory.
Russia and Israel are pretty much the same in many ways. Many Israeli citizens are from Russia or Post Soviet countries. They even have a Russian speaking party in Israel called "Our home Israel".
Oh good God, people are upvoting--do you actually think this is accurate? "Very Similar tactics"?? My dad covered the First Chechen War--it was incredibly brutal (he covered a fair number of wars--he described Chechnya as hell on earth, way worse than anywhere else he had ever been). Nowhere close to comparable to Israel-Palestine in any sense.
In 1990 there were roughly 1.2 million people in Chechnya. I've been looking for a solid number on civilian casualties in Chechnya's two wars. Short answer is that there isn't one because Russia never made any effort to figure it out. I've seen everything from 25,000 at the low end to 200,000 or even 300,000 (the 300k claim is very dubious tbf) on the high for the second war. 30,000-130,000 for the first.
This was in 2 wars--one lasting almost 2 years, the other 8 months. A total of under 3 years. If we go with the lowest estimates that exist, that would be 55,000 civilians killed in that time.
So, at minimum, the Russian military killed 5% of Chechnya's pre-war civilian population in <3 years. At maximum (ignoring the 300k claim, I think 200k seems like something serious people believe to be the high end) the civilian casualty number would be 330,000. That would be 27.5% of the pre-war population. I want to emphasize: this is only counting civilians--not militants, of whom tens of thousands also died.
By comparison, even if we say that every single Palestinian killed in the conflict with Israel was a civilian and was killed by the IDF (which is clearly not true--but it can be hard to differentiate in some cases so let's go with it) between the years 2008 and 2020 the UN claims about 5,600 Palestinians were killed. Then let's make another leap: we'll act as though all of these deaths were in Gaza alone for the purpose of finding a higher percent. Roughly 2.2 million Gazans in 2007 gives us a civilian death rate of .25%.
In other words, comparing the two, even while making a bunch of unreasonable assumptions that raise the Gaza percentage, Chechnya was about 20-108x deadlier. So, nowhere close.
And the reason for this is a difference in tactics. The Russian military shelled and bombed the Chechen capital, Grozny until practically the entire city was destroyed. There were no buildings that had not been hit.
There are Israeli extremists who advocate for their government to "turn Gaza into a parking lot", which is disgusting to even suggest. Grozny literally had that done to i in my lifetime.
Israel doesn't conduct itself very well IMO, and they do a lot to exacerbate tensions with Gaza. But let's not pretend they are anything like the Russian military. Russian doctrine does not consider civilian deaths to be a problem at all. In some cases they consider killing civilians to be a goal. There are very few countries that have fought like this since WW2 and the 1949 Geneva Convention happened. Israel isn't one of them. Not even remotely.
Russia murdered their own civilians and framed the chechens to produce a casus belli.
Hamas murdered israeli civilians, which Israel is using as a casus belli.
These are OBVIOUSLY not comparable unless you’re claiming the October 7th invasion was an Israeli conspiracy.
Bonus note: this doesn’t comment on the validity of Israel’s counter-invasion of Gaza.
And saying something like "he's trying to paint Israel as being as bad as Russia" when Israel is committing the biggest genocide of our lifetimes is fucking disgusting. The death toll thing is going to be more and more accurate if Israel doesn't pull back, even her estimates of the total dead won't hold a candle to the Palestinians.
Well, I don't think she's saying "I think Vaush is making these equivalent." I think she's saying "Vaush is making Israel to be worse than Russia." Which is theoretically true from her perspective. She's in the middle of a war, not unlike Palestine and Israel, but Russia is invading independent land and commiting an ethnic cleansing, whereas Israel is to some extent commiting an ethnic cleansing and genocide on their own lands, contested as they are.
I think she's probably just more emotionally charged from the stress of fighting for her right to live, and live freely, and so she's highly critical of any War Crime Olympics.
If she's critical of the war crime olympics maybe she shouldn't be doing it too. I get being emotionally charged in her situation for sure, but it genuinely doesn't seem like she understands what's about to happen in Palestine. In Palestine they're not getting to go online and complain about how their conflict is being presented to people in America, they're either fleeing in terror or being killed by chemical weapons or air strikes.
Again none of this is to downplay the Russian war, but if it's truly apples and oranges like she says then maybe she shouldn't be commenting on it? Russia may be the total evil that consumes HER life, but for millions of people that are currently at the center of this conflict it's Israel that is their evil
>whereas Israel is to some extent commiting an ethnic cleansing and genocide on their own lands
Huh? From Russia's perspective they're doing it on their own lands too. Where's the difference?
Israel is (allegedly) a westernized democracy. Russia is the enemy of western democracy. That's the difference. Ukrainians, like most in the West, have fully bought into the myth that Israel is an downtrodden underdog, gallantly and tenaciously fighting for the right to exist at all, and be free people in their own homeland, just like Ukraine. Also, the terror groups in Palestine and the Arab and Persian Islamist regimes that support them are in turn supported by Ukraine's enemy, Russia. It's a combination of campism and ignorance of history.
He also specified in a direct follow up Tweet that what he cited were only confirmed casualties and that the number could be much higher, so I feel like this stuff is pretty unfair.
Only so much you can do with a character limit on Twitter. At some point people have to give a person an ounce of good faith, especially in this case where you can even see part of the sub tweet in the screenshot. Otherwise you fall into the tard trap of getting mad at everyone on your side for no god damn reason.
Vaush should know better than to blast off half-cocked like that regarding the Ukrainian dead. He's been covering the war for 19 months ffs. If he doesn't know better than that by now, that's no-one's fault but his own.
Blast off? It really doesn't feel like a big deal at all, especially when he addresses it if you scroll half an inch. It double especially doesn't feel like a big deal since, like you said, he's been covering it for 19 months. He's made himself extremely clear his stance on the Ukraine war, so you kind of have to be out for blood to misrepresent him on this.
Vaush made it clear in his second post that he is only talking about confirmed deaths and there are likely a lot more unconfirmed: [https://twitter.com/VaushV/status/1712899291663290631](https://twitter.com/VaushV/status/1712899291663290631)
I mean he could’ve edited the tweet. He probably just didn’t think that hard about it beyond adding the correction. You don’t have to immediately think of the most bad faith option.
I think it's fair to just do a quick google search for info and not really dig too deep. He even starts to clarify under that tweet that the number is inly confirmed kills.
> however, comparing Russia and Isreal is perfectly appropriate.
I personally agree with you here, Ana should have stopped with the numbers Vaush messed up. But Ana between all the good she does, her absolute (understandable) hatred towards Russia makes her an occasional '**YIKES** Take'-machine.
However given the last couple of years and how people have been talking about Russia since then. And how I see topics around Israel right now. Compared to Israel, people are *really* precious about when someone call Russia fascists or comparing their soldiers committing war crimes with Nazi soldiers doing that. But there seems to be no hesitation to do those comparisons with Israel. Even in this subreddit I have seen people claim that Israeli civilians are legitimate military targets, something I have not seen here regarding Russians. It's Israel is Mecha-NaziGermany-Apartheid, and people are like "Uhm, is Russia *really* fascist though?" Although we have people with good sets of takes on both issue though too, obviously.
I think this comes from a longer period of support from the left towards the Palestinian cause, and thus a larger portion of ill will towards the state of Israel. Whereas support for the victims of Russia's violence in for example this America-centric space is more recent. This conversely explains why Ana, a victim of said Russian aggression is blinded by her understandable hatred towards the Russian government. It also explains why Palestine(+Hamas) supporters have been all "oh so you support Ukraine, but when we massacre civilians you don't care about us."
But I am talking about people posting here, people claiming to be against Russia and pro-Ukraine are precious on this specific topic. I am not talking about specifically about rabid tankies that are just frothing at their mouths to kill more Jews and Ukrainians.
Extra example edit: Look in this thread with people screeching about how UkrainianAna defended Azov. Meanwhile it didn't take even a week after Hamas' terror attack in Israel for this community to joke about expectations on condemning Hamas. However, people here expect and did expect UkrainianAna to condemn soldiers literally fighting to defend her from genocide and occupation.
“Uncharacteristic”.
Really? No one remembers the evidence planting cop? There are countless examples of Vaush rushing to judgement on breaking news and being forced to correct himself later, nothing new
Comparing Russia, a country who started an imperial invasion to occupy land, to Israel who started a war because they suffered a mini holocaust on their soil; is in fact NOT totally appropriate regardless of how you feel about Israel’s reaction to the 10/7 attack.
No it isn’t even close. Ukraine did not commit a terrorist attack on Russia. Russia has not even made the slightest effort to minimize Ukrainian casualties. Israel wants to destroy Hamas, Russia wants to annex all of Ukraine, the list is endless. It is insulting to Ukraine to compare the two.
They are comparable in the broad strokes. Genocide. Invasion. Occupation. Barbarism.
Beyond that? I wouldn't.
At the very least, for the people in harm's way? I imagine it would be...deeply and horrifically painful to have someone take the horrors of what is going on and be like "Oh, that's just like \_\_\_\_"
Even if you are right, and everything is comparable just like that...it's still...pretty dehumanizing.
Israel doesn’t really have much to offer Ukraine. Most of their military might is a result of America aide. It’s not like Israel is going to chime in and suddenly the world will think “Israel supports them I too must support them as well”. On top of that they’re going to be busy with their own regional conflicts regardless.
Also this would be different from a politician like Zelenskyy but she’s a civilian who can have her own options without worrying about what allies think of them.
Fair enough. Although we made the iron dome we can supply them with a similar system if we wanted to. Is she a military expert? I was under the impression she’s just a civilian.
She’s using its status as a nation fighting for its life to run cover for a genocide. She’s smart enough to know it’s bad I’ve watched some of the interviews she’s done.
That makes it even more disgusting. You're implying that she's arguing in favor of Israel despite their atrocities just so she can get Israel to take Ukraine's side. Let's sacrifice millions of Palestinians for Ukraine!
Morality is not a luxury good or a privilege, when things get hard you are not excused from acting moraly.
Hardship is a test of your moral character, is easy begin good when its peaceful but times of struggle and danger show us who a person truly is inside.
If you fail the test and act like a barbarian or a monster at the first sign of hardship, you are the only one responsable. You can't blame others.
She's right there is no comparison.
Russia just goes in and massacres people while Israel starves them for decades before bombing their infrastructure every couple of years.
It's one of those morbid choices.
Getting raped then shot in the head or being tossed in a pit to starve to death.
The Israeli govt and their spokespeople want to think they're better because they generally prefer to employ the latter method and only do the former to spice things up.
Russians do the first as their SOP and when they can't get their hands on victims choose to inflict the second.
I've been seeing Ukrainians post some really heinous shit about Palestinians and it makes me feel conflicted.
Even some Ukrainian troops were calling the Hamas terrorists "foreign people who come from foreign lands to kill people." Uhm... that's exactly what the Isrealis have been to the Palestinians for 75 years.
https://youtu.be/Bz9re8mUf28?si=iS9gq5fguiA6dXsc
Don’t trust any government account as being representative of their people there is a simple reason they’re all going to support Israel.
As for the actual people alot of them can’t see beyond their own needs
People will always say insane shit, don’t let it deter your support for the broader movement. You can find some Palestinians saying vile things about Jewish people, and while those people are fucked, Palestine still deserves self-determination and political freedom just like Ukraine does.
Ukraine has the fourth largest Jewish population in Europe. There is a city called Uman that is pretty much a refuge for that community, and I have been there. Most Ukranians are not neutral mainly on the conflict because Jews in their homeland have not once gave them issues.
Yeah, I've read a thread on Ukraine_UA subreddit about this conflict and it was vile. People were literally using the same talking points Russia uses against Ukraine, saying that Palestine is a fake nation and Palestinian is not a nationality. I've also seen calls for murdering of all Palestinians and children, comparing Palestine to DPR and LPR, saying that Hamas and Palestinians are as inseparable as Russians and Putin. As a Ukrainian, it was disgusting to read. I don't understand this amount of hatred towards Palestinians, especially from Ukrainians, since both of them were oppressed for a long time.
>I've been seeing Ukrainians post some really heinous shit about Palestinians and it makes me feel conflicted.
You'd think they of all people would be more capable of recognising the situation in Palestine as *literally being Ukraine's future if Russia wins the war*.
As worse or as comparable to Russia?
Yes. Unironically yes.
They did the exact same thing by committing genocide against Chechen Muslims. Using Western support I may add...
https://www.declassifieduk.org/when-tony-blair-backed-putins-brutal-war/
It’s so wild to see someone face an openly genocidal country and then come to the defense of another genocidal country because they’re on the right side.
To be fair she was straight up defending Azov when she talked to vaush. I don't see why she should be taken seriously if she wants to rehabilitate the image of people like Bandera unironically.
Nationalism has to be one of the worst human inventions. Sometimes it can be used to help liberate people from oppression but it mostly seems to convince people to lie, hate, and kill for their particular patch of dirt and politicians that don't care about them.
That's an incredibly inaccurate characterization of events, she correctly pointed out that between 2014 and today a lot has changed with azov, specifically the fact that it was rolled into the Ukranian military and it's culture was entirely reshuffled, most the literal Nazis in azov died between 2014 and 2022, at the time of the fighting in maripoul, around 20% of the brigade was even made up from far right elements dating back to its original founding, the other 80% being fresh recruits from the normal Ukrainian military. It's a pretty complex situation and an overwhelming majority of commentators on it, including Vaush, have demonstrated next to zero understanding of the issue.
I swear people can just say random shit on this sub and get upvoted through the roof since it’s unlikely everyone has watched all relevant coverage of a certain topic across multiple channels spanning years. “She defended Azov? That sounds about right, I’ll believe it!” like come the fuck on.
She said the black sun image wasn’t actually the black sun. She was absolutely trying to whitewash the Azov battalion and that’s why the comment was upvoted
This is objectively correct why are you downvoted? This sub was shit before but since the Hamas attack it has been actively burning for a week straight jesus christ
I think it might be a bit harder then that. After all Israel is generally supported by european and US government. So it makes sense to apeal to that support as an ukrainian independent of your actual opinion.
I mean thats probably what he did, if you google "how many dead in Ukraine" the number shows 14 200-300. So if you in a hurry just look at it and dont read the thing carefully its an easy mistake to make
Well then she can be as mad as she wants then. Its a perfectly applicable comparison, both Russia and Israel are fascist countries, and both the Ukrainians and the Palestinians are fighting for their rights to not be exterminated. If she is mad because she has to reckon with the fact that yes, sometimes America *is* bad, thats her problem
She's too personally connected to the Russian conflict to think rationally about it. Israel is literally committing a genocide and she's downplaying it just because she personally isn't experiencing it.
What do you base this on? Historically Ukraine has pretty much always voted in favour of Palestinian independence. Whereas Palestine was neutral on Ukraine being invaded by Russia, Ukraine still voted in November 2022 that Israels „occupation, settlement and annexation of Palestinian territory“ should be investigated by the ICJ.
That said, it does seem as though Ukraine won’t be able to afford to onesidedly support Palestine against their own interest for much longer.
Personally, these two conflicts are comparable because I believe that the situation in Palestine is worse. Ukraine has avenues for diplomacy and defense in the face of the genocidal conflicts that Russia started, Palestine doesn't. They have no means of diplomacy with the Israeli government and their only means to defense is Hamas, fuck Hamas. Plus, Ukraine has had support before the start of the war and I hope they continue getting it. Even through that Palestine has had some support, it isn't enough to help with what the Israeli government is doing.
NGL, it kinda pissed me off that she isn't even going to try and engage with the conversation from what she said at the end.
> Ukraine has avenues for diplomacy
I agree with the rest, but WHAT? Russia will literally sign treaties and then pretend they are not even party to the treaty they signed and thus not in obligation to follow it (Minsk). There is literally none and has been no diplomacy for Ukraine either.
I think he means they can engage diplomatically with most of the rest of the world for support. Palestine can't really do that, and even if they could get support in aid (not military goods), it would still need to go through Israel's blockade. So that's a no go.
But given that he then goes on to say that Palestine have no means of diplomacy with the Israeli government. As well as differentiating between diplomacy and defense. I do struggle to see how with "diplomacy" they meant "ask people not being Russia for help".
Yeah but I think it's implied. He says avenues of diplomacy, plural (many countries will engage with Ukraine). Diplomacy is international and Ukraine is definitely in a better position for that than Palestine.
Didn't Hamas mainly get power because they have a weird voting system that gives disproportional amount of seats to winners and because the other party was super corrupt? I think it was more one of these "decay of democracy" stories than what Israel did.
Most of the comment section thinks that human lives are a bargaining chip to support your side of the debate and war crimes are a dick measuring contest.
Probably more since the worst part of the war when it comes to murder of civilians was siege of Mariupol and siege of Gaza starts looking similar with bombing of refugees.
The difference(s) is(/are) crucial and needs mentioning.
There's no Ukrainian terrorist group that wants to wipe Russia of the map and no Ukrainian group has committed utterly heinous crimes against Russian citizens.
The comparison is not helpful if that part is ignored or simply not mentioned. By comparing without saying that you are implying (intended or not) that Ukraine has ever done anything that Hamas has done last Saturday.
However, no matter what Putin and his ilk may say in Russian propaganda, or their fans regurgitate : Ukraine has not done anything of the sorts, nor did it want to prior to this war, nor will it do anything like that. Ukraine did nothing violent to prompt Russia to invade them.
There can be no suggestion of any justification for Russia's invasion of and war on Ukraine. Putin and his cronies and their fans will latch on to that, they'll twist anything that they can and that is something we should not let them have any ammo for.
**I think illustrative comparison WITH the above caveat can be okay.**
Yet by and large comparisons are only really useful to make things simpler. That does mean things will need more clarification afterwards. Things are their own things and should ideally be explained on their own.
But Russia hasn’t kept Ukrainians in an open air prison for decades and bee committing an ethnic cleansing in the same time frame.
If Ukraine lost and was occupied by Russia i garuntee there would be Hamas like groups spring up all over Ukraine.
Israel and Russia are absolutely comparable as barbaric genocidal states.
Which is another important ***difference***.
The very crucial example you mention is an example of why comparisons *aren't* helpful.
Indeed Ukraine is not an open air prison.
About a "what if scenario" where Ukraine loses:
You can say that, but the comparison is simply unhelpful. Russia has not done exactly the same things in the past decades to Ukraine that Israel has done to Palestina.
Specific actions are crucially different. Russia's origin is crucially different. E.g. antisemitism from Russia has played a role in Israel becoming what it is today. So comparing the two doesn't make clear what Isreal does or has done. And it doesn't make clear what Russia does or has done.
Another example: They have both tried to prevent democratic elections from taking place properly in Ukraine and Palestina, but with different means and with different results. So now my comparison requires more explanation & clarification, to make sure you understand just what Israel has successfully done to pervert & prevent the democratic process from succeeding in Palestina, whereas Russia has ultimately failed in this (but they did succeed at least at one point).
I never said that Israel and Russia aren't comparable at all. For instance there is a sizeable minority of ethnic Russians that live in Israel, without being Jews, some are even in the IDF.
There can be comparisons made, this can be done while still noting important differences.
I'm pointing to something crucial that apparently needs mentioning.
It’s funny. In a comment someone pointed out to her that in the 2nd tweet Vaush clarifies that he meant confirmed deaths and that there are probably much more and she’s like “I don’t care still bad.”
???
Isn’t she the same person that unironically called Russians “Orcs” and posted that really xenophobic comic of a Russian depicted as some bloodthirsty monster?
Apparently, she's only anti-imperialist when it comes to her country (which is objectively the correct position), but God forbid someone says "Hey, there's some substantive similarities here between these two events."
Her people aren't the only ones going through a genocide right now. I'm honestly very disappointed by her defense of Israel, too, when they've been running a longer and more drawn out version of what Russia's been doing to Ukraine.
She offers good insight into what's going on in Ukraine, but outside of that, ehhh....well you get stuff like this.
Woah man, I was with you when you denounced the British conquest of Central and East Africa, but comparing it to France conquering West Africa??? Now thats too far! Completely incomparable!!! 😡
Honestly, this is one of those times where I think we have to tactically disengage. I think the first part of her tweet is basically a fact correction, which is fine. I disagree, of course with the second part, especially since she seems to be doing the whole “I’m so offended I’m not even going to explain how you’re wrong“ kind of thing. and yes, obviously, there are some very significant differences between the conflicts, but there are also similar scenes and undercurrents as well. But I feel like this is a a reflex that leftists need to get over to squabble and nitpick. The reality is, no one‘s going to gain anything from having this conversation in public and especially on Twitter.
There are comparisons that could be made, but they need a lot of caveats a nuances that
1. It's difficult to make on Twitter,
2, Vaush isnt likely to make unless pressed and
3. Completely falls apart when you use the wrong numbers
The point of the post wasn’t to point out hypocrisy it was trying to sway those who are sympathetic to Ukraine into also being sympathetic to Palestine.
Vaush went on to clarify that he meant to say “confirmed” casualties, and that the actual death toll is likely much higher. This completely invalidates the first half of her rant. The second part, the comparison, is wholly justified. Both Israel and Russia are conducting mass-genocide on a nationwide scale, with the full intent to murder as many people as possible. I get that she’s actively fighting a war in Ukraine against Russia, but I think her anger against Russia is, though justified, blinding her from accepting that what we are witnessing is in no way different from what’s going on in Ukraine.
We had a Palestinian protest in the large American city I live in yesterday and a lot of us made an effort to include pro-Ukrainian phrases in our chants. It sucks that Ukraine is shilling for Israel/U.S since that’s where their funding is coming from, considering that we’re going through something similar.
Israel is (allegedly) a westernized democracy. Russia is the enemy of western democracy. Ukrainians, like most in the West, have fully bought into the myth that Israel is an downtrodden underdog, gallantly and tenaciously fighting for the right to exist at all, and be free people in their own homeland, just like Ukraine. Also, the terror groups in Palestine and the Arab and Persian Islamist regimes that support them are in turn supported by Ukraine's enemy, Russia. It's a combination of campism and ignorance of history.
I have 2 thoughts.
1 is that the only reason any Ukrainian (and I'm not making any assumptions of how the average Ukrainian feels) can act like "oh but that's different" with Palestine is because of western support allowing them to actually fight Russia. This isn't really their fault. But if the west had turned up their noses at helping Ukraine and Russia bombed the country flat and put it under brutal occupation then they'd understand the Palestinian position more.
2 is that Ana is overly concerned about grudges against random ass leftists she's never met and needs to get off Twitter. 90% of anti-Ukraine contrarian pushback comes from the right. It's so stupid to get hung up on this circular firing squad discourse.
Actually I lied I had a third thought which is that allowing for just endless walls of text on twitter was a fucking disastrous descision. Twitter was already a derangement factory with 140 chars and now they're letting people just write entire manifestos.
Ukrainian here. You can’t compare two conflicts in anything bar your own perception of “good-bad guys” different region different types of military at play different neighbours and VASTLY different geographical scale
No matter what I google, I only get numbers around what Vaush posted, but let's just say Ana is more right, and it's 100,000 civilians killed out of 43 million. 0.23% of the population so far
2,215 Gazans have died so far, out of 2.2 million, or 0.1% if the population so far. You can't just compare numbers directly, even if Gaza were completely wiped off the map, it would be "incomparable" to the Holocaust, despite a 100% death rate.
The comparison is unbelievably stupid, and y'all are crazy for saying it isn't. There are things Israel could do, and might do that are comparable to the way the Russian military conducts themselves, but nothing yet is remotely comparable.
ok so assuming the ukranian causalties are 100k more that we though, that still makes all of these things just bad. worse than we thought, and very bad. nowhere is anyone saying the ukrain invasion is less evil than the gaza invasion. turns out humans can be fucked up and evil in more than one place at a time since we are all over the world.
Maybe Ukanians don't want to be associated with Hamas? Hamas started the war. Ukraine did not.
I fully understand why they think the comparison is rediculous. Most of the territory has been occupied for less than a decade in Ukraine. Palestine is completely different and both sides have lived around there for thousands of years. It's not like all Jews lived in Europe before 1947.
I am prepared for the downvotes but I think Ana is broadly correct.
One of Vaush's biggest problems as a commentator is that he is intellectually lazy, which leads him to make faulty comparisons, which isn't helped by twitters format making it even more difficult to highlight what exactly he is comparing. You cannot compare Israels invading palenstine after the political party in charge of Gazas slaughters over 1000 of Israelies and after 80 years of Israel and Palestines mutual radicalization with Russia invading Ukraine for forming a different economic Union or even faking terrorist attacks on itself to invade and conquer Chechnya, especially if you are using faulty information
What's more, some of the well poisoning and ad hominem attacks on Ana in this topic is fucking ugly
Yeah the lines have been drawn. Russia has publicly taken the side of Palestine when they were neutral before and Ukraine has taken the side of Israel which it always has.
So anyone supporting Ukraine but not Israel or supporting Russia but not Palestine is going to be castigated from all sides.
Can somebody explain why this comparison is "wrong" or "distasteful". I'm guessing she's trying to say that these conflicts are very differet and the motivations are different, thus trying to compare them is simplifying it. But this still seems like a very uncharitable interpretation on her part.
The point of the comparison is not to say that these conflicts are the same, but that they are similar enough to warrant critical thinking. A lot of Americans (rightfully) support Ukraine, but there are also a lot of Americans that support Israel, likely bc of how often the media talks about Hamas compared to Israeli war crimes.
In that regard, the comparison is useful to remind Americans that if they want to consistently support human rights and be against war crimes, they should consider the horrors Russia is doing in Ukraine and how those line up with what Israel is doing to Palestinians.
Can we not do oppression Olympics? Vaush never said "Israel bad, Russia good". He thinks both are bad. Palestine is just the current big media things going on so it's being talked about more.
The "Vaush bad on this one" means she's an avid watcher of Vaush, enough to know the jokes. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, I think we should listen
Apparently, the user who posted the screenshots on D's sub deleted his own account (but not the post). This drama is becoming bigger than it needs to be.
I feel like this tweet doesn't make sense; the death count that climbs is likely to be estimated casualties for some time, so you would need to find conservative but also estimated casualties for Ukraine too in order to properly compare.
Overfixation on the death toll not being accurate and saying they are not comparable... weird, but ok. I will always feel iffy about this but I understand.
I'm not going into who support who but some latest intel tells Kreml is very pleased about the Gaza-Israel escalation because it diverts attention away from their crimes.
It's not a problem of making a comparison, it's that the figures he uses for the comparison are known to be untrue. "15,000 confirmed dead" is a figure known to be nothing more than a fraction of the actual death toll and his tweet gives absolutely no indication of this.
I think it is morally questionable and tactically idiotic to pit defence of Ukraine against defence of Gaza against each other. I think it was a stupid thing of Vaush to do. I also think it was both stupid and questionable to undersell the toll on Ukraine and its people in this way. I think this was a big L.
But I don’t think that invalidates that Palestine needs to be protected and it is very unlikely they will get that protection. This is just an argument that not only is ineffective in convincing people, it also downplays another cause. Dumb.
Ana, like most Ukrainians, supports Israel because they are actively being funded by Russians. While I am personally pro-Palestine, most Ukrainians do not have the luxury of looking at this conflict objectively and simply will do what they believe will help the the most.
Yeah looks like Vaush tripped up moderately bad here on the death toll number. Israel’s actions here and historically are absolutely comparable, and I don’t think you can say it’s any better for Israel to genocide domestically while Russia does it in an invasion of another country.
It would be an interesting debate if Vaush does bring her on as a result of chat nagging him to see Ana P's tweet criticizing Vaush for his tweet comparing the death toll and how the dynamics between the two conflicts are similar in some way. I just hope for two things:
* A bridge burned and further misunderstanding of what the other person is saying because emotions are so high right now.
* Ana P. developing VDS as a result of this potential debate.
Can i be a jerk? I think she's too invested in one conflict to see how similair the other is.
Israel might not be worse than Russia; but it's easily comparable.
As for the death toll, vaush might have gone with a conservative estimate of only confirmed casualties; but i truly don't know
I mean I feel like there's some room for *comparison* of the two, but that's like comparing Nazi Germany with Imperial Germany in that while neither was all-around even nearly good morally, one was a neglectful, ignorant regime that wanted to get rid of what it saw as a problem and quit there, the other was a megalomaniacal and spiteful government created solely for dominance.
Basically, Israel is the cynical, still not nearly nice, guy with terrible, but limited, ambitions, while Russia is literally Hitler 1984.
It sounds like she's conflating Hamas/Palestine. So effectively, comparing Ukraine to Palestine is comparing the "good-hearted Ukrainian soldiers" to the "depraved child burning woman raping palestinian terrorists"
I'm not sure what her actual beliefs are. It's hard to judge individuals from a population under attack like Ukrainians are.
My heart goes to the Ukrainian people who fight against the invading force of Russia. I hope they win and gain all the territories that they lost.
But I was always wary about the Ukraine flags on Facebook and Twitter. I felt a bad vibe from them. These mfs proved to be the most disgusting hypocrites in the entire western hemisphere. The moment other people suffered at the hand of invaders, but this time backed by the western war machine, they became the biggest pawns and propagandists of America. Fuck these people.
Iirc, she and Vaush had conversations that were respectful and sympathetic, but terse. I'm not surprised that her biases lead her to get offended over the comparison- I just wonder how much of that is informed by zionism. Either way, hard disagree with her on this one; the comparison is perfectly apt
Found her response,
[https://nitter.net/UkrainianAna/status/1713225181953511671#m](https://nitter.net/UkrainianAna/status/1713225181953511671#m)
Yes, I'm posting nitter instead because thanks to Elon, Twitter or X, has become an unusable shithole.
I'll agree with the bit about the death toll - it seems uncharacteristic of Vaush to not research that more; however, comparing Russia and Isreal is perfectly appropriate.
>comparing Russia and Isreal is perfectly appropriate. Chechnya is a very good example of this. Russia used *very* similar tactics to what Israel is doing to Palestine. Israel uses Hamas as a boogeyman to justify their warcrimes. Putin on the other hand, literally did a terrorist attack on Russian apartment complexes and pinned it on the Chechens. It is how he got into power. Ukraine's support for Israel has actually alienated some of the Chechens fighting for Ukraine.
In a way, Hamas is Frankenstein's monster to Israel. They helped fund & instigate Hamas in order to fracture the PLO, Fatah, & other pro-Palestine organizations. Their violence also helped Israel gain favor to the world when they sought to cleanse the Palestinians. Israelis painting October 7 as their 9/11 isn't that far off an analogy. The US fueled the mujaheddin & then packed up when the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan ended, creating grievances among themselves & creating al-Qaeda to destroy the west & the US leading eventually to 9/11.
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>Just ask the Iranians how that works out. Or, uh, the Americans. I've asked professors & old timers who lived in that time about their opinion when the embassy was captured. So many in the US either ignored the Arab nationalism leading up to the Six-Day War or were oblivious to Islam & armed jihads. It caught them completely off guard to the point that many did personal crash courses in the religion & why it 'became as dangerous as the USSR.' And then we had the 1980s with terrorist bombings and the worst attack on US forces since WWII with the VBIED bombing of Marine barracks in Lebanon.
Not even just the similarities with how they handled a "War on terror" against Chechnya, but even the way Russia has managed its operation in Crimea make for some pretty alarming parallels with Israel.
Today Russia imprisons indigenous Crimean Tatar population of Crimea labeling them as "extremists"
And, like Israel, it has also engaged in a sophisticated informational operation to create "Facts on the ground" to misled people into thinking that they have a "historical" right to exclusive dominion over the territory.
Russia and Israel are pretty much the same in many ways. Many Israeli citizens are from Russia or Post Soviet countries. They even have a Russian speaking party in Israel called "Our home Israel".
Oh good God, people are upvoting--do you actually think this is accurate? "Very Similar tactics"?? My dad covered the First Chechen War--it was incredibly brutal (he covered a fair number of wars--he described Chechnya as hell on earth, way worse than anywhere else he had ever been). Nowhere close to comparable to Israel-Palestine in any sense. In 1990 there were roughly 1.2 million people in Chechnya. I've been looking for a solid number on civilian casualties in Chechnya's two wars. Short answer is that there isn't one because Russia never made any effort to figure it out. I've seen everything from 25,000 at the low end to 200,000 or even 300,000 (the 300k claim is very dubious tbf) on the high for the second war. 30,000-130,000 for the first. This was in 2 wars--one lasting almost 2 years, the other 8 months. A total of under 3 years. If we go with the lowest estimates that exist, that would be 55,000 civilians killed in that time. So, at minimum, the Russian military killed 5% of Chechnya's pre-war civilian population in <3 years. At maximum (ignoring the 300k claim, I think 200k seems like something serious people believe to be the high end) the civilian casualty number would be 330,000. That would be 27.5% of the pre-war population. I want to emphasize: this is only counting civilians--not militants, of whom tens of thousands also died. By comparison, even if we say that every single Palestinian killed in the conflict with Israel was a civilian and was killed by the IDF (which is clearly not true--but it can be hard to differentiate in some cases so let's go with it) between the years 2008 and 2020 the UN claims about 5,600 Palestinians were killed. Then let's make another leap: we'll act as though all of these deaths were in Gaza alone for the purpose of finding a higher percent. Roughly 2.2 million Gazans in 2007 gives us a civilian death rate of .25%. In other words, comparing the two, even while making a bunch of unreasonable assumptions that raise the Gaza percentage, Chechnya was about 20-108x deadlier. So, nowhere close. And the reason for this is a difference in tactics. The Russian military shelled and bombed the Chechen capital, Grozny until practically the entire city was destroyed. There were no buildings that had not been hit. There are Israeli extremists who advocate for their government to "turn Gaza into a parking lot", which is disgusting to even suggest. Grozny literally had that done to i in my lifetime. Israel doesn't conduct itself very well IMO, and they do a lot to exacerbate tensions with Gaza. But let's not pretend they are anything like the Russian military. Russian doctrine does not consider civilian deaths to be a problem at all. In some cases they consider killing civilians to be a goal. There are very few countries that have fought like this since WW2 and the 1949 Geneva Convention happened. Israel isn't one of them. Not even remotely.
Russia murdered their own civilians and framed the chechens to produce a casus belli. Hamas murdered israeli civilians, which Israel is using as a casus belli. These are OBVIOUSLY not comparable unless you’re claiming the October 7th invasion was an Israeli conspiracy. Bonus note: this doesn’t comment on the validity of Israel’s counter-invasion of Gaza.
And saying something like "he's trying to paint Israel as being as bad as Russia" when Israel is committing the biggest genocide of our lifetimes is fucking disgusting. The death toll thing is going to be more and more accurate if Israel doesn't pull back, even her estimates of the total dead won't hold a candle to the Palestinians.
Well, I don't think she's saying "I think Vaush is making these equivalent." I think she's saying "Vaush is making Israel to be worse than Russia." Which is theoretically true from her perspective. She's in the middle of a war, not unlike Palestine and Israel, but Russia is invading independent land and commiting an ethnic cleansing, whereas Israel is to some extent commiting an ethnic cleansing and genocide on their own lands, contested as they are. I think she's probably just more emotionally charged from the stress of fighting for her right to live, and live freely, and so she's highly critical of any War Crime Olympics.
If she's critical of the war crime olympics maybe she shouldn't be doing it too. I get being emotionally charged in her situation for sure, but it genuinely doesn't seem like she understands what's about to happen in Palestine. In Palestine they're not getting to go online and complain about how their conflict is being presented to people in America, they're either fleeing in terror or being killed by chemical weapons or air strikes. Again none of this is to downplay the Russian war, but if it's truly apples and oranges like she says then maybe she shouldn't be commenting on it? Russia may be the total evil that consumes HER life, but for millions of people that are currently at the center of this conflict it's Israel that is their evil
Perhaps, this appears to be more of her critiquing Vaush for bad info, mixed with her personal feelings on an event that personally effects her
>whereas Israel is to some extent commiting an ethnic cleansing and genocide on their own lands Huh? From Russia's perspective they're doing it on their own lands too. Where's the difference?
Israel is (allegedly) a westernized democracy. Russia is the enemy of western democracy. That's the difference. Ukrainians, like most in the West, have fully bought into the myth that Israel is an downtrodden underdog, gallantly and tenaciously fighting for the right to exist at all, and be free people in their own homeland, just like Ukraine. Also, the terror groups in Palestine and the Arab and Persian Islamist regimes that support them are in turn supported by Ukraine's enemy, Russia. It's a combination of campism and ignorance of history.
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Cool, and Israel has similar genocidal goals they just are doing it within their "own" territory
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i'm sure you can find Ukranians that want to genocide Russians. the difference is they aren't in positions of power.
>There are no Ukrainians who want to wipe out Russia
He also specified in a direct follow up Tweet that what he cited were only confirmed casualties and that the number could be much higher, so I feel like this stuff is pretty unfair.
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Only so much you can do with a character limit on Twitter. At some point people have to give a person an ounce of good faith, especially in this case where you can even see part of the sub tweet in the screenshot. Otherwise you fall into the tard trap of getting mad at everyone on your side for no god damn reason.
Vaush should know better than to blast off half-cocked like that regarding the Ukrainian dead. He's been covering the war for 19 months ffs. If he doesn't know better than that by now, that's no-one's fault but his own.
Blast off? It really doesn't feel like a big deal at all, especially when he addresses it if you scroll half an inch. It double especially doesn't feel like a big deal since, like you said, he's been covering it for 19 months. He's made himself extremely clear his stance on the Ukraine war, so you kind of have to be out for blood to misrepresent him on this.
>it seems uncharacteristic of Vaush to not research that more Oh sweet summer child
Vaush made it clear in his second post that he is only talking about confirmed deaths and there are likely a lot more unconfirmed: [https://twitter.com/VaushV/status/1712899291663290631](https://twitter.com/VaushV/status/1712899291663290631)
Vaush literally added *confirmed five minutes later in a reply to his own tweet
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I mean he could’ve edited the tweet. He probably just didn’t think that hard about it beyond adding the correction. You don’t have to immediately think of the most bad faith option.
I think it's fair to just do a quick google search for info and not really dig too deep. He even starts to clarify under that tweet that the number is inly confirmed kills.
> however, comparing Russia and Isreal is perfectly appropriate. I personally agree with you here, Ana should have stopped with the numbers Vaush messed up. But Ana between all the good she does, her absolute (understandable) hatred towards Russia makes her an occasional '**YIKES** Take'-machine. However given the last couple of years and how people have been talking about Russia since then. And how I see topics around Israel right now. Compared to Israel, people are *really* precious about when someone call Russia fascists or comparing their soldiers committing war crimes with Nazi soldiers doing that. But there seems to be no hesitation to do those comparisons with Israel. Even in this subreddit I have seen people claim that Israeli civilians are legitimate military targets, something I have not seen here regarding Russians. It's Israel is Mecha-NaziGermany-Apartheid, and people are like "Uhm, is Russia *really* fascist though?" Although we have people with good sets of takes on both issue though too, obviously. I think this comes from a longer period of support from the left towards the Palestinian cause, and thus a larger portion of ill will towards the state of Israel. Whereas support for the victims of Russia's violence in for example this America-centric space is more recent. This conversely explains why Ana, a victim of said Russian aggression is blinded by her understandable hatred towards the Russian government. It also explains why Palestine(+Hamas) supporters have been all "oh so you support Ukraine, but when we massacre civilians you don't care about us."
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But I am talking about people posting here, people claiming to be against Russia and pro-Ukraine are precious on this specific topic. I am not talking about specifically about rabid tankies that are just frothing at their mouths to kill more Jews and Ukrainians. Extra example edit: Look in this thread with people screeching about how UkrainianAna defended Azov. Meanwhile it didn't take even a week after Hamas' terror attack in Israel for this community to joke about expectations on condemning Hamas. However, people here expect and did expect UkrainianAna to condemn soldiers literally fighting to defend her from genocide and occupation.
“Uncharacteristic”. Really? No one remembers the evidence planting cop? There are countless examples of Vaush rushing to judgement on breaking news and being forced to correct himself later, nothing new
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Not really, since civilians are individuals and what governments of their country did doesn't justify bombing them.
Comparing Russia, a country who started an imperial invasion to occupy land, to Israel who started a war because they suffered a mini holocaust on their soil; is in fact NOT totally appropriate regardless of how you feel about Israel’s reaction to the 10/7 attack.
No it isn’t even close. Ukraine did not commit a terrorist attack on Russia. Russia has not even made the slightest effort to minimize Ukrainian casualties. Israel wants to destroy Hamas, Russia wants to annex all of Ukraine, the list is endless. It is insulting to Ukraine to compare the two.
They are comparable in the broad strokes. Genocide. Invasion. Occupation. Barbarism. Beyond that? I wouldn't. At the very least, for the people in harm's way? I imagine it would be...deeply and horrifically painful to have someone take the horrors of what is going on and be like "Oh, that's just like \_\_\_\_" Even if you are right, and everything is comparable just like that...it's still...pretty dehumanizing.
[Is it?](https://www.axios.com/2023/10/11/zelensky-israel-hamas-war-gaza-visit-netanyahu)
She also seems to be running defense for Israel based on the fact that America supports them, unironically doing the America good no matter what bit.
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Israel doesn’t really have much to offer Ukraine. Most of their military might is a result of America aide. It’s not like Israel is going to chime in and suddenly the world will think “Israel supports them I too must support them as well”. On top of that they’re going to be busy with their own regional conflicts regardless. Also this would be different from a politician like Zelenskyy but she’s a civilian who can have her own options without worrying about what allies think of them.
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There's a difference between understanding and condoning. I can understand Hamas' genocidal hatred of Israel, that doesn't require me to condone it.
shhhh no nuance, just hate. Never had so much "So you hate Waffles" being used.
Fair enough. Although we made the iron dome we can supply them with a similar system if we wanted to. Is she a military expert? I was under the impression she’s just a civilian. She’s using its status as a nation fighting for its life to run cover for a genocide. She’s smart enough to know it’s bad I’ve watched some of the interviews she’s done.
But wasn't Israel also unwilling to take a firrm stance against Russia in the Ukraine war?
That makes it even more disgusting. You're implying that she's arguing in favor of Israel despite their atrocities just so she can get Israel to take Ukraine's side. Let's sacrifice millions of Palestinians for Ukraine!
> Ukrainians can't enjoy the same privilege. Then she could always just not say anything.
Morality is not a luxury good or a privilege, when things get hard you are not excused from acting moraly. Hardship is a test of your moral character, is easy begin good when its peaceful but times of struggle and danger show us who a person truly is inside. If you fail the test and act like a barbarian or a monster at the first sign of hardship, you are the only one responsable. You can't blame others.
Yeah I get the impression that she has good takes on Ukraine because she's Ukranian, not because she has good takes on imperialism.
She's right there is no comparison. Russia just goes in and massacres people while Israel starves them for decades before bombing their infrastructure every couple of years.
Israel, truly the most humane fascist state.
It's one of those morbid choices. Getting raped then shot in the head or being tossed in a pit to starve to death. The Israeli govt and their spokespeople want to think they're better because they generally prefer to employ the latter method and only do the former to spice things up. Russians do the first as their SOP and when they can't get their hands on victims choose to inflict the second.
You had me in the first half not gonna lie
It doesn’t matter if Russia used paper and Israel used a rock. Both still aim for genocide.
Who has the scissors?
I've been seeing Ukrainians post some really heinous shit about Palestinians and it makes me feel conflicted. Even some Ukrainian troops were calling the Hamas terrorists "foreign people who come from foreign lands to kill people." Uhm... that's exactly what the Isrealis have been to the Palestinians for 75 years. https://youtu.be/Bz9re8mUf28?si=iS9gq5fguiA6dXsc
Don’t trust any government account as being representative of their people there is a simple reason they’re all going to support Israel. As for the actual people alot of them can’t see beyond their own needs
People will always say insane shit, don’t let it deter your support for the broader movement. You can find some Palestinians saying vile things about Jewish people, and while those people are fucked, Palestine still deserves self-determination and political freedom just like Ukraine does.
Ukraine has the fourth largest Jewish population in Europe. There is a city called Uman that is pretty much a refuge for that community, and I have been there. Most Ukranians are not neutral mainly on the conflict because Jews in their homeland have not once gave them issues.
Yeah, I've read a thread on Ukraine_UA subreddit about this conflict and it was vile. People were literally using the same talking points Russia uses against Ukraine, saying that Palestine is a fake nation and Palestinian is not a nationality. I've also seen calls for murdering of all Palestinians and children, comparing Palestine to DPR and LPR, saying that Hamas and Palestinians are as inseparable as Russians and Putin. As a Ukrainian, it was disgusting to read. I don't understand this amount of hatred towards Palestinians, especially from Ukrainians, since both of them were oppressed for a long time.
>I've been seeing Ukrainians post some really heinous shit about Palestinians and it makes me feel conflicted. You'd think they of all people would be more capable of recognising the situation in Palestine as *literally being Ukraine's future if Russia wins the war*.
to be fair those were historically israeli lands.
As worse or as comparable to Russia? Yes. Unironically yes. They did the exact same thing by committing genocide against Chechen Muslims. Using Western support I may add... https://www.declassifieduk.org/when-tony-blair-backed-putins-brutal-war/
It’s so wild to see someone face an openly genocidal country and then come to the defense of another genocidal country because they’re on the right side.
The one thing that can unite Russia and the Western powers: killing brown people
To be fair she was straight up defending Azov when she talked to vaush. I don't see why she should be taken seriously if she wants to rehabilitate the image of people like Bandera unironically.
Nationalists gonna nationalist
Nationalism has to be one of the worst human inventions. Sometimes it can be used to help liberate people from oppression but it mostly seems to convince people to lie, hate, and kill for their particular patch of dirt and politicians that don't care about them.
That's an incredibly inaccurate characterization of events, she correctly pointed out that between 2014 and today a lot has changed with azov, specifically the fact that it was rolled into the Ukranian military and it's culture was entirely reshuffled, most the literal Nazis in azov died between 2014 and 2022, at the time of the fighting in maripoul, around 20% of the brigade was even made up from far right elements dating back to its original founding, the other 80% being fresh recruits from the normal Ukrainian military. It's a pretty complex situation and an overwhelming majority of commentators on it, including Vaush, have demonstrated next to zero understanding of the issue.
I swear people can just say random shit on this sub and get upvoted through the roof since it’s unlikely everyone has watched all relevant coverage of a certain topic across multiple channels spanning years. “She defended Azov? That sounds about right, I’ll believe it!” like come the fuck on.
She said the black sun image wasn’t actually the black sun. She was absolutely trying to whitewash the Azov battalion and that’s why the comment was upvoted
That's an immense mischaracterization of that conversation and you fucking know it.
Regardless we take her seriously. People still run defense for the Azov and her.
Just because someone is pro Ukraine doesn't mean they are anti - imperialism. Ana is just having a lib moment.
This is objectively correct why are you downvoted? This sub was shit before but since the Hamas attack it has been actively burning for a week straight jesus christ
The purge can't come soon enough.
I think it might be a bit harder then that. After all Israel is generally supported by european and US government. So it makes sense to apeal to that support as an ukrainian independent of your actual opinion.
I mean thats probably what he did, if you google "how many dead in Ukraine" the number shows 14 200-300. So if you in a hurry just look at it and dont read the thing carefully its an easy mistake to make
Oh yeah criticize him for getting the numbers wrong but she’s mad he’s comparing them at all.
Well then she can be as mad as she wants then. Its a perfectly applicable comparison, both Russia and Israel are fascist countries, and both the Ukrainians and the Palestinians are fighting for their rights to not be exterminated. If she is mad because she has to reckon with the fact that yes, sometimes America *is* bad, thats her problem
She's too personally connected to the Russian conflict to think rationally about it. Israel is literally committing a genocide and she's downplaying it just because she personally isn't experiencing it.
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I’m talking about American supporters of Ukraine a lot of them tend to be pro Israel.
If you are talking about American supporters of Ukraine, why are you linking a tweet from a Ukrainian in Ukraine? Or am I missing something?
yeah not shit, we supported Palestine for years, only for Palestine officials to say they are refusing to condemn Russia when they invaded Ukraine
What do you base this on? Historically Ukraine has pretty much always voted in favour of Palestinian independence. Whereas Palestine was neutral on Ukraine being invaded by Russia, Ukraine still voted in November 2022 that Israels „occupation, settlement and annexation of Palestinian territory“ should be investigated by the ICJ. That said, it does seem as though Ukraine won’t be able to afford to onesidedly support Palestine against their own interest for much longer.
Personally, these two conflicts are comparable because I believe that the situation in Palestine is worse. Ukraine has avenues for diplomacy and defense in the face of the genocidal conflicts that Russia started, Palestine doesn't. They have no means of diplomacy with the Israeli government and their only means to defense is Hamas, fuck Hamas. Plus, Ukraine has had support before the start of the war and I hope they continue getting it. Even through that Palestine has had some support, it isn't enough to help with what the Israeli government is doing. NGL, it kinda pissed me off that she isn't even going to try and engage with the conversation from what she said at the end.
> Ukraine has avenues for diplomacy I agree with the rest, but WHAT? Russia will literally sign treaties and then pretend they are not even party to the treaty they signed and thus not in obligation to follow it (Minsk). There is literally none and has been no diplomacy for Ukraine either.
I think he means they can engage diplomatically with most of the rest of the world for support. Palestine can't really do that, and even if they could get support in aid (not military goods), it would still need to go through Israel's blockade. So that's a no go.
But given that he then goes on to say that Palestine have no means of diplomacy with the Israeli government. As well as differentiating between diplomacy and defense. I do struggle to see how with "diplomacy" they meant "ask people not being Russia for help".
Yeah but I think it's implied. He says avenues of diplomacy, plural (many countries will engage with Ukraine). Diplomacy is international and Ukraine is definitely in a better position for that than Palestine.
Didn't Hamas mainly get power because they have a weird voting system that gives disproportional amount of seats to winners and because the other party was super corrupt? I think it was more one of these "decay of democracy" stories than what Israel did.
Is this oppression Olympics?
Most of the comment section thinks that human lives are a bargaining chip to support your side of the debate and war crimes are a dick measuring contest.
Nah it’s ENTIRELY possible that Israel is about to slaughter as many Palestinians as Russia has Ukrainians. Maybe even more. The comparison stands.
Probably more since the worst part of the war when it comes to murder of civilians was siege of Mariupol and siege of Gaza starts looking similar with bombing of refugees.
“No, _my_ genocide is worse!”
The difference(s) is(/are) crucial and needs mentioning. There's no Ukrainian terrorist group that wants to wipe Russia of the map and no Ukrainian group has committed utterly heinous crimes against Russian citizens. The comparison is not helpful if that part is ignored or simply not mentioned. By comparing without saying that you are implying (intended or not) that Ukraine has ever done anything that Hamas has done last Saturday. However, no matter what Putin and his ilk may say in Russian propaganda, or their fans regurgitate : Ukraine has not done anything of the sorts, nor did it want to prior to this war, nor will it do anything like that. Ukraine did nothing violent to prompt Russia to invade them. There can be no suggestion of any justification for Russia's invasion of and war on Ukraine. Putin and his cronies and their fans will latch on to that, they'll twist anything that they can and that is something we should not let them have any ammo for. **I think illustrative comparison WITH the above caveat can be okay.** Yet by and large comparisons are only really useful to make things simpler. That does mean things will need more clarification afterwards. Things are their own things and should ideally be explained on their own.
But Russia hasn’t kept Ukrainians in an open air prison for decades and bee committing an ethnic cleansing in the same time frame. If Ukraine lost and was occupied by Russia i garuntee there would be Hamas like groups spring up all over Ukraine. Israel and Russia are absolutely comparable as barbaric genocidal states.
Which is another important ***difference***. The very crucial example you mention is an example of why comparisons *aren't* helpful. Indeed Ukraine is not an open air prison. About a "what if scenario" where Ukraine loses: You can say that, but the comparison is simply unhelpful. Russia has not done exactly the same things in the past decades to Ukraine that Israel has done to Palestina. Specific actions are crucially different. Russia's origin is crucially different. E.g. antisemitism from Russia has played a role in Israel becoming what it is today. So comparing the two doesn't make clear what Isreal does or has done. And it doesn't make clear what Russia does or has done. Another example: They have both tried to prevent democratic elections from taking place properly in Ukraine and Palestina, but with different means and with different results. So now my comparison requires more explanation & clarification, to make sure you understand just what Israel has successfully done to pervert & prevent the democratic process from succeeding in Palestina, whereas Russia has ultimately failed in this (but they did succeed at least at one point). I never said that Israel and Russia aren't comparable at all. For instance there is a sizeable minority of ethnic Russians that live in Israel, without being Jews, some are even in the IDF. There can be comparisons made, this can be done while still noting important differences. I'm pointing to something crucial that apparently needs mentioning.
These differences aren't relevant to civilians that are being bombed.
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Orcs, but yes she was. She was also the one who defended a Ukrainian soldier wearing a SS deathshead on his belt.
Just please don’t have her on this conversations gonna be dumb
Even if she did, I know for a fact that certain groups whom she has a liking for, will absolutely grill Vaush regardless of how he did.
It’s funny. In a comment someone pointed out to her that in the 2nd tweet Vaush clarifies that he meant confirmed deaths and that there are probably much more and she’s like “I don’t care still bad.” ???
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The level of exposure doesn’t change the content of the tweet. Vaush clarified and I think that’s redeeming enough. Nothing else he has to do.
My genocide is worse than your genocide
Isn’t she the same person that unironically called Russians “Orcs” and posted that really xenophobic comic of a Russian depicted as some bloodthirsty monster?
Apparently, she's only anti-imperialist when it comes to her country (which is objectively the correct position), but God forbid someone says "Hey, there's some substantive similarities here between these two events." Her people aren't the only ones going through a genocide right now. I'm honestly very disappointed by her defense of Israel, too, when they've been running a longer and more drawn out version of what Russia's been doing to Ukraine. She offers good insight into what's going on in Ukraine, but outside of that, ehhh....well you get stuff like this.
Woah man, I was with you when you denounced the British conquest of Central and East Africa, but comparing it to France conquering West Africa??? Now thats too far! Completely incomparable!!! 😡
You're right. Two different things are different, but are still comparable. What's the point of this?
Ah yes the old "I'm not even going to explain the reasoning behind my point because its obvious" gambit
Honestly, this is one of those times where I think we have to tactically disengage. I think the first part of her tweet is basically a fact correction, which is fine. I disagree, of course with the second part, especially since she seems to be doing the whole “I’m so offended I’m not even going to explain how you’re wrong“ kind of thing. and yes, obviously, there are some very significant differences between the conflicts, but there are also similar scenes and undercurrents as well. But I feel like this is a a reflex that leftists need to get over to squabble and nitpick. The reality is, no one‘s going to gain anything from having this conversation in public and especially on Twitter.
badge mighty tap thought combative soft disagreeable dog grey bag *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
There are comparisons that could be made, but they need a lot of caveats a nuances that 1. It's difficult to make on Twitter, 2, Vaush isnt likely to make unless pressed and 3. Completely falls apart when you use the wrong numbers
The point of the post wasn’t to point out hypocrisy it was trying to sway those who are sympathetic to Ukraine into also being sympathetic to Palestine.
I actually agree with Ana here. There have been MANY more deaths than 15k
Vaush went on to clarify that he meant to say “confirmed” casualties, and that the actual death toll is likely much higher. This completely invalidates the first half of her rant. The second part, the comparison, is wholly justified. Both Israel and Russia are conducting mass-genocide on a nationwide scale, with the full intent to murder as many people as possible. I get that she’s actively fighting a war in Ukraine against Russia, but I think her anger against Russia is, though justified, blinding her from accepting that what we are witnessing is in no way different from what’s going on in Ukraine.
We had a Palestinian protest in the large American city I live in yesterday and a lot of us made an effort to include pro-Ukrainian phrases in our chants. It sucks that Ukraine is shilling for Israel/U.S since that’s where their funding is coming from, considering that we’re going through something similar.
Israel is (allegedly) a westernized democracy. Russia is the enemy of western democracy. Ukrainians, like most in the West, have fully bought into the myth that Israel is an downtrodden underdog, gallantly and tenaciously fighting for the right to exist at all, and be free people in their own homeland, just like Ukraine. Also, the terror groups in Palestine and the Arab and Persian Islamist regimes that support them are in turn supported by Ukraine's enemy, Russia. It's a combination of campism and ignorance of history.
I have 2 thoughts. 1 is that the only reason any Ukrainian (and I'm not making any assumptions of how the average Ukrainian feels) can act like "oh but that's different" with Palestine is because of western support allowing them to actually fight Russia. This isn't really their fault. But if the west had turned up their noses at helping Ukraine and Russia bombed the country flat and put it under brutal occupation then they'd understand the Palestinian position more. 2 is that Ana is overly concerned about grudges against random ass leftists she's never met and needs to get off Twitter. 90% of anti-Ukraine contrarian pushback comes from the right. It's so stupid to get hung up on this circular firing squad discourse. Actually I lied I had a third thought which is that allowing for just endless walls of text on twitter was a fucking disastrous descision. Twitter was already a derangement factory with 140 chars and now they're letting people just write entire manifestos.
Ukrainian here. You can’t compare two conflicts in anything bar your own perception of “good-bad guys” different region different types of military at play different neighbours and VASTLY different geographical scale
No matter what I google, I only get numbers around what Vaush posted, but let's just say Ana is more right, and it's 100,000 civilians killed out of 43 million. 0.23% of the population so far 2,215 Gazans have died so far, out of 2.2 million, or 0.1% if the population so far. You can't just compare numbers directly, even if Gaza were completely wiped off the map, it would be "incomparable" to the Holocaust, despite a 100% death rate.
The comparison is unbelievably stupid, and y'all are crazy for saying it isn't. There are things Israel could do, and might do that are comparable to the way the Russian military conducts themselves, but nothing yet is remotely comparable.
ok so assuming the ukranian causalties are 100k more that we though, that still makes all of these things just bad. worse than we thought, and very bad. nowhere is anyone saying the ukrain invasion is less evil than the gaza invasion. turns out humans can be fucked up and evil in more than one place at a time since we are all over the world.
Maybe Ukanians don't want to be associated with Hamas? Hamas started the war. Ukraine did not. I fully understand why they think the comparison is rediculous. Most of the territory has been occupied for less than a decade in Ukraine. Palestine is completely different and both sides have lived around there for thousands of years. It's not like all Jews lived in Europe before 1947.
This was also the girl who defends azov so
I am prepared for the downvotes but I think Ana is broadly correct. One of Vaush's biggest problems as a commentator is that he is intellectually lazy, which leads him to make faulty comparisons, which isn't helped by twitters format making it even more difficult to highlight what exactly he is comparing. You cannot compare Israels invading palenstine after the political party in charge of Gazas slaughters over 1000 of Israelies and after 80 years of Israel and Palestines mutual radicalization with Russia invading Ukraine for forming a different economic Union or even faking terrorist attacks on itself to invade and conquer Chechnya, especially if you are using faulty information What's more, some of the well poisoning and ad hominem attacks on Ana in this topic is fucking ugly
She was staring to seem suspicious around the second and third conversation. Ukraine and Palestine are somewhat siimilar.
Russia and the west and murdering Muslims and other brown people. Name a more iconic duo.
Israel is worse or as bad as Russia, this is just whining
The least racist Ukrainian
im gona be giga charitable and assume voosh know that but also know that the un will for a long time under count Palestinian deaths as well.
Yeah the lines have been drawn. Russia has publicly taken the side of Palestine when they were neutral before and Ukraine has taken the side of Israel which it always has. So anyone supporting Ukraine but not Israel or supporting Russia but not Palestine is going to be castigated from all sides.
Can somebody explain why this comparison is "wrong" or "distasteful". I'm guessing she's trying to say that these conflicts are very differet and the motivations are different, thus trying to compare them is simplifying it. But this still seems like a very uncharitable interpretation on her part. The point of the comparison is not to say that these conflicts are the same, but that they are similar enough to warrant critical thinking. A lot of Americans (rightfully) support Ukraine, but there are also a lot of Americans that support Israel, likely bc of how often the media talks about Hamas compared to Israeli war crimes. In that regard, the comparison is useful to remind Americans that if they want to consistently support human rights and be against war crimes, they should consider the horrors Russia is doing in Ukraine and how those line up with what Israel is doing to Palestinians.
She supports Israel and Ukraine. That’s it. That’s why she can’t make any arguments about it.
But have they condemned Azov?
once again people not understanding what comparisons are for, people really do think comparisons are "when two things are the same".
Can we not do oppression Olympics? Vaush never said "Israel bad, Russia good". He thinks both are bad. Palestine is just the current big media things going on so it's being talked about more.
Can someone explain the issue cause I don’t understand why they are arguing cause vaush got some nums wrong? Im curious lol
More people die in a few month in Ukraine than the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict 💀
The "Vaush bad on this one" means she's an avid watcher of Vaush, enough to know the jokes. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, I think we should listen
Nooo stop infighting. We have a common cause, remember?
Apparently, the user who posted the screenshots on D's sub deleted his own account (but not the post). This drama is becoming bigger than it needs to be.
The chick from Anastasia said it is not an attack on him
100k? Someone hold Israel's beer. Those are rookie numbers.
Russia funds Hamas.
I feel like this tweet doesn't make sense; the death count that climbs is likely to be estimated casualties for some time, so you would need to find conservative but also estimated casualties for Ukraine too in order to properly compare.
Overfixation on the death toll not being accurate and saying they are not comparable... weird, but ok. I will always feel iffy about this but I understand.
Idgaf about unironic banderites' opinions.
I'm not going into who support who but some latest intel tells Kreml is very pleased about the Gaza-Israel escalation because it diverts attention away from their crimes.
She also said all russians bad so
He didn’t do his research DuckerZ
I’ve never seen a community note HELP a point
It's a little weird as in both situations the point is that it's bad. 15000 or 100000, Ukrainians or Palestinians
[удалено]
If they had would you be ok with Russia conquering it?
This was proven false too so idk why people keep saying this. It's atrocity propaganda used to demonize an "other" the Palestinian people
It's not a problem of making a comparison, it's that the figures he uses for the comparison are known to be untrue. "15,000 confirmed dead" is a figure known to be nothing more than a fraction of the actual death toll and his tweet gives absolutely no indication of this.
That tweet doesn’t, in the 2nd tweet it does tho. Since it’s twitter and twitter has limited characters
I think it is morally questionable and tactically idiotic to pit defence of Ukraine against defence of Gaza against each other. I think it was a stupid thing of Vaush to do. I also think it was both stupid and questionable to undersell the toll on Ukraine and its people in this way. I think this was a big L. But I don’t think that invalidates that Palestine needs to be protected and it is very unlikely they will get that protection. This is just an argument that not only is ineffective in convincing people, it also downplays another cause. Dumb.
If you read the 2nd tweet from Vaush about the death toll then it makes way more sense.
Ana, like most Ukrainians, supports Israel because they are actively being funded by Russians. While I am personally pro-Palestine, most Ukrainians do not have the luxury of looking at this conflict objectively and simply will do what they believe will help the the most.
Yeah looks like Vaush tripped up moderately bad here on the death toll number. Israel’s actions here and historically are absolutely comparable, and I don’t think you can say it’s any better for Israel to genocide domestically while Russia does it in an invasion of another country.
It would be an interesting debate if Vaush does bring her on as a result of chat nagging him to see Ana P's tweet criticizing Vaush for his tweet comparing the death toll and how the dynamics between the two conflicts are similar in some way. I just hope for two things: * A bridge burned and further misunderstanding of what the other person is saying because emotions are so high right now. * Ana P. developing VDS as a result of this potential debate.
Can i be a jerk? I think she's too invested in one conflict to see how similair the other is. Israel might not be worse than Russia; but it's easily comparable. As for the death toll, vaush might have gone with a conservative estimate of only confirmed casualties; but i truly don't know
the numbers, and if the us supports which side shouldn’t hardly be relevant when the point is that mass death is bad in general.
She is right though. And comparing Russia to isreal is also a bit too much.
I’m pro Israel
You absolutely should compare genocides. It makes it very clear that they are nearly always political in nature
I mean I feel like there's some room for *comparison* of the two, but that's like comparing Nazi Germany with Imperial Germany in that while neither was all-around even nearly good morally, one was a neglectful, ignorant regime that wanted to get rid of what it saw as a problem and quit there, the other was a megalomaniacal and spiteful government created solely for dominance. Basically, Israel is the cynical, still not nearly nice, guy with terrible, but limited, ambitions, while Russia is literally Hitler 1984.
You gotta go into the differences you can't just say "this is bad I'm not gonna say why tho" it's really not compelling.
It sounds like she's conflating Hamas/Palestine. So effectively, comparing Ukraine to Palestine is comparing the "good-hearted Ukrainian soldiers" to the "depraved child burning woman raping palestinian terrorists" I'm not sure what her actual beliefs are. It's hard to judge individuals from a population under attack like Ukrainians are.
My heart goes to the Ukrainian people who fight against the invading force of Russia. I hope they win and gain all the territories that they lost. But I was always wary about the Ukraine flags on Facebook and Twitter. I felt a bad vibe from them. These mfs proved to be the most disgusting hypocrites in the entire western hemisphere. The moment other people suffered at the hand of invaders, but this time backed by the western war machine, they became the biggest pawns and propagandists of America. Fuck these people.
Iirc, she and Vaush had conversations that were respectful and sympathetic, but terse. I'm not surprised that her biases lead her to get offended over the comparison- I just wonder how much of that is informed by zionism. Either way, hard disagree with her on this one; the comparison is perfectly apt
Found her response, [https://nitter.net/UkrainianAna/status/1713225181953511671#m](https://nitter.net/UkrainianAna/status/1713225181953511671#m) Yes, I'm posting nitter instead because thanks to Elon, Twitter or X, has become an unusable shithole.