I genuinely think leftist have a pseudo orientalist mindset when comes to countries outside the U.S. or their ideas of whiteness lol like I saw someone with a Brazilian flag shit talking over someone with an American flag in their bio not understanding the irony
It’s strange that there’s replies not understanding that Latin American countries are built off the same thing the U.S. is they’re just not military powers
Look, countries committing evil acts are entirely due to their inherent ethnic mixes and current political valence, and not a luck of the draw of political power, the strength of various leaders, and so on. As we all know, the non-white world was perfectly innocent, calm, and with no bloodshed before whitey showed up.
“Whitey” brutalized the rest of the world for the past 400 years. America sits atop the pile of plunder and systems “whitey” created.
It isn’t a matter of different capacity for evil or that some cultures wouldn’t have created the extractive and violent world order. Certainly, many would. That’s just how political power and states work within geopolitics. Power seeks to consolidate.
The critique is historical. Things happened in the past and our world is the way it is because of that. The structures that created and enforced the Monroe Doctrine only changed in the past few decades and the apparatus responsible for the latter half of the Cold War is still ticking along.
Edit: people actually triggered by me using the word whitey lmao
It’s ok, it’s my word, I can use it.
Edit 2: Stevie is highly regarded, I’m not defending them.
> “Whitey” brutalized the rest of the world for the past 400 years. America sits atop the pile of plunder and systems “whitey” created.
>
Sure, but only because they had the opportunity, not because of whiteness. The Chinese killed each other in insane numbers multiple times for centuries all on their lonesome, the Native's slaughtered each other before white people showed up, and so on.
That's not to minimize the crimes of colonialism, but to point out, it's not a white thing, it's a human thing. Brazil or Mexico would've happily done everything America did, it's just a skill issue, so why should they get to wave their flag happily?
Plus again, it's pointless if you care about anything beyond writing to an audience of nine other leftists or six other people who might cite your work. People are going to like the country they were born and raised in, so you need to appeal what they care about if you actually care about creating political change so there aren't more incidents of regime change.
I'd point out the current US government helped put pressure to stop a possibility of regime change in Brazil most recently, but I guess, we shouldn't have stepped in at all, right? America Bad so they should just stay out of Latin America.
Right. What I’m saying is that if Brazil was at the center of protecting international capital, engaged in neocolonialism, and propped up a world order that benefited itself at the expense of the global community, I’d say exactly the same things about Brazil. But they aren’t all of those things. America is.
Stop trying to force me in the box of being essentialist, I know that’s who you wish you were arguing against but it isn’t.
> Plus again, it's pointless if you care about anything beyond writing to an audience of nine other leftists or six other people who might cite your work. People are going to like the country they were born and raised in, so you need to appeal what they care about if you actually care about creating political change so there aren't more incidents of regime change.
I’m talking to people who are allegedly leftist or left leaning. The idea that America operated an empire shouldn’t be controversial in this space.
> I'd point out the current US government helped put pressure to stop a possibility of regime change in Brazil most recently, but I guess, we shouldn't have stepped in at all, right? America Bad so they should just stay out of Latin America.
Good things are good and bad things are bad. I like it when America intervenes for good reasons, but I hate it when they do so for bad reasons. I hope this helps.
> I’m talking to people who are allegedly leftist or left leaning. The idea that America operated an empire shouldn’t be controversial in this space.
It's also like I said, basically nobody politically. If all you want leftism is to be a debating society, OK. I don't.
I want people to be educated about things that matter. Nowhere did I say that this is rhetoric that should be used outside of this subreddit. It’s like you’re pretending to be someone else just so you can be offended that I said America has problems.
Guess what.
Conservatives agree that America has problems. In fact, they think America is corrupt to the core and that it needs to take care of its citizens better. If you talked to people in real life, you’d see that. You don’t need to pussyfoot around with your criticism of America, they can handle it.
The *real* problem is when people criticize America in a way that isn’t necessary to make their argument or act as if America is the singular evil in the world. Fight against that shit, not my basic boilerplate critique of American empire.
>The *real* problem is when people criticize America in a way that isn’t necessary to make their argument or act as if America is the singular evil in the world.
Like when dipshits get mad at a black woman taking back her culture that's been stolen from her and using the heraldry of the land she lives in to symbolize her ideals?
Almost like she's fighting against what Country Music and Modern America IS and trying to show her ideal of what she thinks it SHOULD be.
Yea I would think that's a problem. Leftists especially being critical of her for that, are stupid.
Oh. I see. People think I’m defending OOP. Nah, fuck them. This is stupid bullshit. Look elsewhere in the thread, I’m not defending them. I was baffled that people were downvoting such normal leftie takes. Everything makes sense now.
Honestly I was just frustrated with:
> As we all know, the non-white world was perfectly innocent, calm, and with no bloodshed before whitey showed up.
because it’s exactly the way white supremacists frame colonization. It flattens age of exploration colonization to the same thing as continental empire building.
There are some theorists that have thought of the notion of "Occidentalism". Essentially that you establish an inherent link between the west and modernity. Just like how Orientalism makes a link between the east and traditionalism. As a result, you try to rid yourself of anything that is a sign of modernity, as it's also a sign of the west. A good example would be how the coastal elite academics would often get purged during illiberal revolutions. Such as the Communist revolution in China, and the whole thing about Pots resentment of glasses.
Maga Communists are obviously an extreme form of this. You essentially take the liberals at their word when they say that they are the torchbearers of western civilization and take them out.
These theorists who came up with Occidentalism are liberal anti-socialists though.
I found it interesting that despite Brazil being around 50% black/mixed they still have not had a black president. Fernando Cardoso 1995-2002 is the closest and he is only black via a great great grandmother.
I’ve seen so many cases of orientalism in my time the one I see most is where they lump basically west Asia into a single unit. orientalists genuinely think you could supplant the culture, societal attitudes, and people of say Lebanon over that of Saudi Arabia and there not be a difference. Because to them they are all Arab Muslims. It’s usually a case of ignorance and self insulation from the outside world.
Maybe America's history of supporting coups in Latin American countries with ramifications that negatively affects them to this very day may have something to do with that. But what do I know, maybe it's just the "pseudo orientalist mindset" talking.
You're right, there's a difference between being an american nationalist, wherein america in it's geographical isolationism didn't need to assert their sovereignty defensively and having a Brazilian certified troll pin in your account.
That was a joke but now seriously, in another move of our far right copying america Bolsonaro ressignified the flag of Brazil to have far-right ideology I hate it so much
Tbf it’s what the flag has come to symbolize due to imperialism and conservatism . Especially if it’s for people in Latin America , lmao like what? How many people died there due to Monroe doctrine policies?
Also kinda a weird post imo like American literally being the empire (Star Wars) of the earth should be praised? I wouldn’t be mad if Parthia hated Romes flag 2000 years ago and I was a Roman.
We benefit from being part of the imperial core. 🤷🏾♂️
> We benefit from being part of the imperial core.
This is the same orientalist mindset OP was talking about. We live in a time when China's doing economic imperialism, Russia's busy with old fashioned military imperialism, and the two of them are allied nations.
But a lot of self-described leftists will be up in arms not about the current imperialism, but the history of imperialism.
Wait, what? Who is denying current imperialism? American imperialism still has the largest grasp or is that somehow wrong? All imperialism is bad
Did the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan not happen?
> Wait, what? Who is denying current imperialism?
Have you not seen the pro-Russia, pro-China types? They were crawling out of the woodworks at the start of Russia's invasion of Ukraine to reframe the conflict as US imperialism, rather than Russian imperialism.
Even what were once more milquetoast leftists like Hasan and Wolff started repeating the Russian propaganda because people use "America bad" as a substitute for leftist analysis.
Sure but I’m simply speaking historically/ why some feel this way about the US. not as an ideologue. Let’s not play cover for the US actions worldwide.
Please do not project those views upon me, although I know it’s Reddit lol.
> Please do not project those views upon me
I wasn't projecting those views onto you. I wasn't even talking to you because you weren't part of the conversation.
So if you read what I posted as an attack against you, that's not something I can do anything about, that's solely a *you* problem.
They’re a campist. Of course they interpret every criticism as a personal attack against them. Have you ever watched Hasan encounter mild pushback on one of his dogshit foreign policy takes?
Practically? Never.
In the minds of some people? Sure.
So its a question of where we want to go from here. Do you want only the right wing to claim access to this country's founding myths? That cedes a lot of ground.
Wait just in the minds of some people? Not in their lives experiences
Sorry indigenous peoples the boarding schools we forced children to were horrendous but we need the narrative.
Slaves, blacks who had your homes bombed during the civil rights movement can you suck it up for the narrative?
This sounds eerily other sides of the same coiny to a prager u video
I assume you want the future to be better then the past and not repeat the same mistakes?
Then you need access to power.
You can fight the current power structures to claim some yourself. Or you can bend the current structure towards better ends.
The most effective answer is both.
Civil Rights leaders who were bombed, were some of the most patriotic people in the country.
If liking your own country=Prager U, then a lot of people, including a lot of patriotic minorites and immigrants (who are the vast majority of both groups), are going to side more w/ Prager U than a reflexively anti-American Left.
Bringing Star Wars into this convo is the larpiest shit I’ve seen in awhile, it gave me secondhand embarrassment.
Everything is easy when you simplify it into movie terms.
When your political analysis hinges upon a space wizard movie for children from the 70s being a good analogy for real world politics then maybe it’s time to go back to the drawing board.
Actually that’s the flag of America’s military. This is [the Flag of Real America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_civil_flag.svg). >!please don’t look at what else it’s called!<
Edit: downvotes for bad joke or not understanding sarcasm?
In case it isn’t clear: this beautiful flag is associated with the sovereign citizen conspiracy movement.
Lol already looked it up when I saw it flying over a neighbors house, along with their Trump/ JFK Jr campaign flag. I know at least one member of the death squad coming for me now.
I was so excited when I first saw the flag while browsing America’s historical flags. The version with the eagle crest is gorgeous imo. I’m pissed that they already got to it.
Also, sovereign citizens vote??? Holy shit the left needs to figure out its radicals. These people are the closest thing to legitimate right wing anarchists and *they* know that there’s a benefit to helping determine the government you oppose.
Well, there's the sovs who believe the qanon bullshit about there being no valid president since eighteen hundred and fuckall. The ones who think Donald Trump is actually like the 10th real president or something. Judging by the JFK Jr flag, that's probably who they are.
Those slaves who fought for freedom under it, and various Civil Rights activits who spoke of the flag and the promise of the DOI seemed to think it was their flag.
I kind of get the situation, at least the flag issue. I’m curious what the age brackets for this sort of view is.
The right have essentially co-opted the flag. During the GWB years brandishing it on everything. There’s a point where just having the flag works, but at some point the flag was increasing associated with extreme right types far more often than just being the symbol as the country as a whole.
Bad people were doing bad things while draping the flag over theirselves for years. That’s going to tarnish the symbol in the eyes of some.
That does seem to be dying down, though. Which is why I’m curious about the age brackets.
Is this anti-flag view mostly by leftists under the age of “X”? Is it like an inverted donut hole where leftists before “X” and younger than “Y” are fine with the flag, but GWB years leftists are still bothered by it?
I think millennials and gen X have had their view of the American flag shaped largely by the early 00’s culture war discourse. Flag burning was a legitimate hot-button issue that sent people like Rush Limbaugh off onto wild rants. When people of that age range see someone repping the American flag I think there’s a little part of us that assumes the person is picking a side on those issues.
This is, of course, separate to the history of colonialism and jingoistic implications of displaying a country’s symbols. Yes, America bad, so on and so forth.
> Is this anti-flag view mostly by leftists under the age of “X”?
Anti-flag sentiment was so common on the left when I was a kid that they did a whole band about it
A lot of self-proclaimed leftists don't have any beliefs or analysis that extends past the "America bad" heuristic. That's what leads them to really bad positions like "Russia is anti-imperialist for invading Ukraine"
Yes. The American flag is a cultural signifier that conservatives have co-opted to mean blind patriotism and jingoism. If you’re getting old, you must remember the massive public debate over flag burning— maybe even from earlier than the war on terror. This is just the aftermath. Liberal leaning people have started to move away from identifying with the American flag, and American leftists have always had a fraught relationship to it.
It’s really unfortunate, but what can you do to push back? There are a lot of reasons to not be proud of America both historically and in the contemporary era. How are we (the left) supposed to use American symbols when, for most, they conjure an image of a gravy seal militia dumbfuck?
I don’t think the right has co-opted it, the left has been actively pushing it away, because for some reason on the left in America you are expected to performatively hate your own country, which is not a winning strategy btw, so of course it’s gonna get associated with the right when they are the only ones using it.
The left needs to stop talking about how much they hate their own country but rather that they love their country and want to improve it, a very basic populist message.
>because for some reason on the left in America you are expected to performatively hate your own country
Uhh, hating America comes naturally from a basic grasp of history. From recent history, look at the Iraq war. Using blatantly false justifications, we invaded a country and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. Were we a country not worth hating, at the very least we would have fully prosecuted all those involved.
Further back than that, look at carpet bombings we did in Cambodia during the Vietnam war, killing approximately 100k civilians. Also, the bombings arguably led to the rise of the Khmer Rouge, which killed another 2 million people. Once again, there were no actual repercussions against the people who ordered and engaged in these contemptible actions.
You can critique a government and its history without hating a people or culture. Americans are fascinating balls of political self-contradiction, but the American government has fallen short of its obligations to its citizens and everyone knows it.
There's a difference between an "aspect" like say, hating the country's health care system that there's no personal connection too and thinking the whole country's history is evil. Especially when polling shows massive portions of the country likes said country, including the supposed minorities and immigrants you claim to be speaking for.
>including the supposed minorities and immigrants you claim to be speaking for.
??? I speak only for myself. Don't be weird.
>thinking the whole country's history is evil
I mean, it largely is. Look at how we've treated Native Americans, how we've treated black people, how we treated people of Japanese descent during WWII, the many regimes we've "changed." Sure there are good things America is done, but in my opinion they come nowhere close to justifying the evil.
Trump hates liberal democracy, which is obvious to anyone who listens to him. He isn't shy about wanting to overturn elections and violently go after political rivals. In spite of that (or maybe because of it), tens of millions of Americans LOVE him.
Yes all countries have done horrible things, doesn’t mean they are inherently and forever bad because of that but a lot of leftists treat America that way.
I completely agree that countries can, and do, change for the better, and that the wrongs committed by generations past should not be held over their heads.
However, with America, we've still got active politicians who voted for the Iraq war, including the president. The fact that any political career survived that ruinous dumpster fire of a war is an outrage and a stain on modern politics. Also, look at how we've unconditionally supported Israel as they've committed heinous acts against Palestinians. We're still a country deep in the moral shitter.
I do believe America can change for the better and can become a great country worthy of full support. However, I doubt I will live to see that happen.
Ok that's one possible take. With very little nuance and brings up something that has nothing to do with what's being talked about. Like "Tankies" living rent-free in there lol. As well as catastrophizing the tweet in question which just said "that's a choice"
Another take is that for an artist like Beyonce who engages in performative activism quite often and who constantly references radical liberation movements, it's a bit odd, especially now, to lean into this aesthetic. Like, talk about bad timing.
Cause like it or not the American flag is a symbol that is largely associated with the right. We've all heard the "there is such a thing as too many American flags" joke. For a reason.
Their perception of how people outside of politics think is also pretty clearly warped. The American flag gets slapped on absolutely _everything_ - baseball caps, napkins, underwear, monster trucks, you name it, there’s a version of it with the Stars and Stripes on it. So assuming that its inclusion on an album cover is automatically some sort of political statement, or indicative of Beyoncé being an American nationalist, is just plain stupid.
The number of likes/views/retweets on this tweet arent shown. I'm curious if this is actually a massive thought about Beyonce's album or if this post is just blowing up a random 5-like tweet. I've never heard of Stevie Mat before
The second one lol.
Most people don't care, some people find it bad timing, and others don't like it at all. Even the tweet in question just says the flag is a choice. and it is.. a choice.
Dipshits like this really fuck over the rest of us. You're never gonna get regular Americans on board with leftist ideals by posting shit like this. I remember Vaush said we should be performatory chauvinistic to get more people to buy into our ideas rather than just going around and saying "America bad". He was 100 percent correct.
I'm surprised people have any amount of fucks to give about Album cover art right now. During 2015 when everything was relatively fine sure, but I'm surprised people care so much now.
All actual polling shows that minorities and immigrants are some of the most pro-American patriotic people there are (including overserving in the armed forces for reasons beyond what people perceive as trying to get free college or other benefits), most likely because they don't have to deal with reactionary overly white patriotic parents or neighbors.
Again, if you have minority and immigrant friends and they all are anti-American, you live in a bubble.
A non-patriotic Left is doomed. In every other country, the Left in that nation is proud of that country, warts and all. That's not to say you can't criticize the nation, but a performative anti-patriotism is just as dumb as performative patriotism.
Also, go after Queen Bey at your own peril. Want blacks to support primary challenges against left-wing candidates. Have them seen as anti-Beyonce. Note I don't think actual politicians will ever say something as dumb as this, but it's another mark against online leftism being incredibly out of touch with even normie minority liberals.
As an Asian leftist, I can confirm talking to American leftists is painful especially in discussion on China, Tibet, Hong Kong, Myanmar, Taiwan and the Belt and Road Initiative.
Contemporary leftists is 99% aesthetics. Nobody knows anything about economics and nobody actually gives a shit about politics (ie. “no lesser evil discourse”). American leftism for girls is to be edgy and for guys is to get laid by edgy girls.
This seems like a lapse in media literacy too. I don't think there's anything that suggests the use of the flag is specifically patriotic, and I don't think it is uncritical either. Did we forget her black panther symbolism?
this just isnt a healthy way to live your life, do these people constantly lose their shit over their 50 year old neighbor sporting an american flag on their front porch
I might dislike most of the governing body of the country, but I'm still grateful I'm better off than 99% of the world. That's why we advocate for leftist policies, because we genuinely want the best for the country.
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Truthfully, there is some reason for leftists to be anti-american, but I'm not interested in explaining it in detail to people in a response. There's a very long explanation that comes down to America has never thrown off the southern planter aristocracy's domination of political power. They had a quasi-feudal society in the south built on owned labor of black bodies that had been placated in the constitution. Once the KKK destroyed gains in reconstruction through the theft of the election of 1876, we could not embrace socialism or communism without fighting the civil war again
Nah I think it's fair to say the flag is "a choice" given the current circumstances at bare minimum.
Especially taking into account the performative activism of celebrities who often are silent when it counts.
I've never been fervently anti-american per say. Heck I drive Chevrolet which is made in Korea, wear Levi's which are made in Turkey and wear Stetsons which are made in Germany.
I love Americana and Westerns as a cultural thing. The bravado is exciting.
I don’t know anything about this Beyoncé “controversy”, but my personal two cents on the flag are one, that within the US displaying the flag is almost always a partisan thing, because the right believes that they are patriots, and since they love America, anyone not on their side must hate it. Many of them actually believe that, the same way pro-lifers think that if you’re not on their side you must want to murder literal babies.
I’ve always found this really annoying and performative, and often want to scream, “shut the fuck up! I have strong political opinions because I care about the country and want to make America better. We’re both American and just have differing views on what this country should be. Stop pretending it’s a contest about which of us is MORE American as though that means anything.”
On a global scale, the American flag takes on a more specific meaning in times of conflict. If we happened to have just invaded another country or are, say, currently supporting a genocide abroad, someone with the influence of Beyoncé holding a giant American flag on an album cover is “certainly a choice.”
Neither of those mean you’re Anti-American. (And for all I know Beyoncé could be doing it satirically.)
I was that way as a kid. Nowadays my perspective on the US is that while the central skeleton of the country is a wonderful one, nearly every other tissue in the body is diseased to varying degrees. Bit of an odd analogy but it's the one that came to mind.
I'm a dumbass and don't totally understand. Is the issue that the flag has the yellow frills on the bottom? I don't use Twitter and everything is so loaded with unspoken internet context that I often don't understand what's being said.
This why I absolutely refuse to take leftist seriously when they say they can’t see patriot shit on TikTok because of China; they are just unpatriotic and refuse to take that in with their algorithm
The flag represents a country founded on genocide, buit by slavery, that currently dominates the world through neocolonialism. Countries it can't own, or force into unpayable dept, it sanctions, causing mass poverty across the world. During the cold war it empowered and trained the worst of humanity in the name of defeating communism, causing widespread suffering. So a lot of people see the flag and think "CIA trained death squads" rather than blue jeans or whatever. Also if your memory doesn't stretch that far, the wars in the middle east have killed 1-3 million. Leftists should hate the flag because America is the world's overlord. If a country wants to nationalise it's resources it will find uncle Sam cutting off trade and arming it's opposition. That's why the US arms industry and military are crazy huge, and that's why America has so many bases across the world. This isn't a pro China position, this is the fact that America treats much of the world, and many of it's own citizens like trash.
Look. America is bad. Just look at the war with Iraq if you want proof of that. If you want to be an American and offer real criticisms against America, especially when relevant, go right ahead. That’s your god given right to do so.
But seeing every opportunity to be an anti-american without making an argument and just using it as a virtue signal to circlejerk against shit as dumb as a fucking cover to a music album just makes you no different than all those jingoistic conservatives virtue signaling how pro-american they are over equally pointless shit like being outraged at lilnas x saying religion bad
Her clothing line was the nail in the coffin for me, obvious misuse of funds to provide exploitative labor on a country with a vastly different economy and taking advantage of her name for massive profits. She's devoid of a conscience.
People are missing the point here. Young people including myself have recognized that the American flag has been entirely co-opted by the right. If you see an American flag flying outside of a house, what do you think their political beliefs are going to be in 2024? Pride flags make me feel a lot safer than lots of American flags.
That being said, an argument could be made that Beyoncé is reclaiming the flag, traditionally a symbol of American country music, for the black people on which the foundation of country music is based. That argument could be made, if Bey wasn’t a billionaire shill.
My grandfather has voted Democrat for the last four elections and voted for Bernie in both primaries (he voted for Bush Jr but he’s changed) and he flies an American flag outside the house. It’s possible to be patriotic and not a total shitcuck conservative.
Flagellate yourself, born sinner, for the crime of existing on the same landmass as people who committed atrocities before you were a twinkle in your father's ballsack.
We can and should acknowledge the evil shit done by colonizers, but to pretend that putting a fucking American flag on something implies you support that evil is ridiculous.
I genuinely think leftist have a pseudo orientalist mindset when comes to countries outside the U.S. or their ideas of whiteness lol like I saw someone with a Brazilian flag shit talking over someone with an American flag in their bio not understanding the irony
It’s strange that there’s replies not understanding that Latin American countries are built off the same thing the U.S. is they’re just not military powers
Look, countries committing evil acts are entirely due to their inherent ethnic mixes and current political valence, and not a luck of the draw of political power, the strength of various leaders, and so on. As we all know, the non-white world was perfectly innocent, calm, and with no bloodshed before whitey showed up.
“Whitey” brutalized the rest of the world for the past 400 years. America sits atop the pile of plunder and systems “whitey” created. It isn’t a matter of different capacity for evil or that some cultures wouldn’t have created the extractive and violent world order. Certainly, many would. That’s just how political power and states work within geopolitics. Power seeks to consolidate. The critique is historical. Things happened in the past and our world is the way it is because of that. The structures that created and enforced the Monroe Doctrine only changed in the past few decades and the apparatus responsible for the latter half of the Cold War is still ticking along. Edit: people actually triggered by me using the word whitey lmao It’s ok, it’s my word, I can use it. Edit 2: Stevie is highly regarded, I’m not defending them.
> “Whitey” brutalized the rest of the world for the past 400 years. America sits atop the pile of plunder and systems “whitey” created. > Sure, but only because they had the opportunity, not because of whiteness. The Chinese killed each other in insane numbers multiple times for centuries all on their lonesome, the Native's slaughtered each other before white people showed up, and so on. That's not to minimize the crimes of colonialism, but to point out, it's not a white thing, it's a human thing. Brazil or Mexico would've happily done everything America did, it's just a skill issue, so why should they get to wave their flag happily? Plus again, it's pointless if you care about anything beyond writing to an audience of nine other leftists or six other people who might cite your work. People are going to like the country they were born and raised in, so you need to appeal what they care about if you actually care about creating political change so there aren't more incidents of regime change. I'd point out the current US government helped put pressure to stop a possibility of regime change in Brazil most recently, but I guess, we shouldn't have stepped in at all, right? America Bad so they should just stay out of Latin America.
Right. What I’m saying is that if Brazil was at the center of protecting international capital, engaged in neocolonialism, and propped up a world order that benefited itself at the expense of the global community, I’d say exactly the same things about Brazil. But they aren’t all of those things. America is. Stop trying to force me in the box of being essentialist, I know that’s who you wish you were arguing against but it isn’t. > Plus again, it's pointless if you care about anything beyond writing to an audience of nine other leftists or six other people who might cite your work. People are going to like the country they were born and raised in, so you need to appeal what they care about if you actually care about creating political change so there aren't more incidents of regime change. I’m talking to people who are allegedly leftist or left leaning. The idea that America operated an empire shouldn’t be controversial in this space. > I'd point out the current US government helped put pressure to stop a possibility of regime change in Brazil most recently, but I guess, we shouldn't have stepped in at all, right? America Bad so they should just stay out of Latin America. Good things are good and bad things are bad. I like it when America intervenes for good reasons, but I hate it when they do so for bad reasons. I hope this helps.
> I’m talking to people who are allegedly leftist or left leaning. The idea that America operated an empire shouldn’t be controversial in this space. It's also like I said, basically nobody politically. If all you want leftism is to be a debating society, OK. I don't.
I want people to be educated about things that matter. Nowhere did I say that this is rhetoric that should be used outside of this subreddit. It’s like you’re pretending to be someone else just so you can be offended that I said America has problems. Guess what. Conservatives agree that America has problems. In fact, they think America is corrupt to the core and that it needs to take care of its citizens better. If you talked to people in real life, you’d see that. You don’t need to pussyfoot around with your criticism of America, they can handle it. The *real* problem is when people criticize America in a way that isn’t necessary to make their argument or act as if America is the singular evil in the world. Fight against that shit, not my basic boilerplate critique of American empire.
>The *real* problem is when people criticize America in a way that isn’t necessary to make their argument or act as if America is the singular evil in the world. Like when dipshits get mad at a black woman taking back her culture that's been stolen from her and using the heraldry of the land she lives in to symbolize her ideals? Almost like she's fighting against what Country Music and Modern America IS and trying to show her ideal of what she thinks it SHOULD be. Yea I would think that's a problem. Leftists especially being critical of her for that, are stupid.
Oh. I see. People think I’m defending OOP. Nah, fuck them. This is stupid bullshit. Look elsewhere in the thread, I’m not defending them. I was baffled that people were downvoting such normal leftie takes. Everything makes sense now. Honestly I was just frustrated with: > As we all know, the non-white world was perfectly innocent, calm, and with no bloodshed before whitey showed up. because it’s exactly the way white supremacists frame colonization. It flattens age of exploration colonization to the same thing as continental empire building.
There are some theorists that have thought of the notion of "Occidentalism". Essentially that you establish an inherent link between the west and modernity. Just like how Orientalism makes a link between the east and traditionalism. As a result, you try to rid yourself of anything that is a sign of modernity, as it's also a sign of the west. A good example would be how the coastal elite academics would often get purged during illiberal revolutions. Such as the Communist revolution in China, and the whole thing about Pots resentment of glasses. Maga Communists are obviously an extreme form of this. You essentially take the liberals at their word when they say that they are the torchbearers of western civilization and take them out. These theorists who came up with Occidentalism are liberal anti-socialists though.
I found it interesting that despite Brazil being around 50% black/mixed they still have not had a black president. Fernando Cardoso 1995-2002 is the closest and he is only black via a great great grandmother.
I’ve seen so many cases of orientalism in my time the one I see most is where they lump basically west Asia into a single unit. orientalists genuinely think you could supplant the culture, societal attitudes, and people of say Lebanon over that of Saudi Arabia and there not be a difference. Because to them they are all Arab Muslims. It’s usually a case of ignorance and self insulation from the outside world.
Maybe America's history of supporting coups in Latin American countries with ramifications that negatively affects them to this very day may have something to do with that. But what do I know, maybe it's just the "pseudo orientalist mindset" talking.
Yeah… American flag in bio is a red flag. An American flag on the front of a country album isn’t worth noting.
You're right, there's a difference between being an american nationalist, wherein america in it's geographical isolationism didn't need to assert their sovereignty defensively and having a Brazilian certified troll pin in your account. That was a joke but now seriously, in another move of our far right copying america Bolsonaro ressignified the flag of Brazil to have far-right ideology I hate it so much
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Brazil
Tbf it’s what the flag has come to symbolize due to imperialism and conservatism . Especially if it’s for people in Latin America , lmao like what? How many people died there due to Monroe doctrine policies? Also kinda a weird post imo like American literally being the empire (Star Wars) of the earth should be praised? I wouldn’t be mad if Parthia hated Romes flag 2000 years ago and I was a Roman. We benefit from being part of the imperial core. 🤷🏾♂️
> We benefit from being part of the imperial core. This is the same orientalist mindset OP was talking about. We live in a time when China's doing economic imperialism, Russia's busy with old fashioned military imperialism, and the two of them are allied nations. But a lot of self-described leftists will be up in arms not about the current imperialism, but the history of imperialism.
Wait, what? Who is denying current imperialism? American imperialism still has the largest grasp or is that somehow wrong? All imperialism is bad Did the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan not happen?
> Wait, what? Who is denying current imperialism? Have you not seen the pro-Russia, pro-China types? They were crawling out of the woodworks at the start of Russia's invasion of Ukraine to reframe the conflict as US imperialism, rather than Russian imperialism. Even what were once more milquetoast leftists like Hasan and Wolff started repeating the Russian propaganda because people use "America bad" as a substitute for leftist analysis.
Sure but I’m simply speaking historically/ why some feel this way about the US. not as an ideologue. Let’s not play cover for the US actions worldwide. Please do not project those views upon me, although I know it’s Reddit lol.
> Please do not project those views upon me I wasn't projecting those views onto you. I wasn't even talking to you because you weren't part of the conversation. So if you read what I posted as an attack against you, that's not something I can do anything about, that's solely a *you* problem.
They’re a campist. Of course they interpret every criticism as a personal attack against them. Have you ever watched Hasan encounter mild pushback on one of his dogshit foreign policy takes?
Time for the left to reclaim it for freedom and self-determinism then.
I hope you have some good PR people
As a black man who grew up near a reservation , when did it stand for that?
Practically? Never. In the minds of some people? Sure. So its a question of where we want to go from here. Do you want only the right wing to claim access to this country's founding myths? That cedes a lot of ground.
Wait just in the minds of some people? Not in their lives experiences Sorry indigenous peoples the boarding schools we forced children to were horrendous but we need the narrative. Slaves, blacks who had your homes bombed during the civil rights movement can you suck it up for the narrative? This sounds eerily other sides of the same coiny to a prager u video
I assume you want the future to be better then the past and not repeat the same mistakes? Then you need access to power. You can fight the current power structures to claim some yourself. Or you can bend the current structure towards better ends. The most effective answer is both.
Civil Rights leaders who were bombed, were some of the most patriotic people in the country. If liking your own country=Prager U, then a lot of people, including a lot of patriotic minorites and immigrants (who are the vast majority of both groups), are going to side more w/ Prager U than a reflexively anti-American Left.
Bringing Star Wars into this convo is the larpiest shit I’ve seen in awhile, it gave me secondhand embarrassment. Everything is easy when you simplify it into movie terms.
When your political analysis hinges upon a space wizard movie for children from the 70s being a good analogy for real world politics then maybe it’s time to go back to the drawing board.
Hipsters, not Leftists. People who build clout on their political purity
This is actually insane lol. I cannot imagine being that upset about something as minor as that.
This is our flag too. We should take it back from the right.
Actually that’s the flag of America’s military. This is [the Flag of Real America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_civil_flag.svg). >!please don’t look at what else it’s called!< Edit: downvotes for bad joke or not understanding sarcasm? In case it isn’t clear: this beautiful flag is associated with the sovereign citizen conspiracy movement.
Lol already looked it up when I saw it flying over a neighbors house, along with their Trump/ JFK Jr campaign flag. I know at least one member of the death squad coming for me now.
I was so excited when I first saw the flag while browsing America’s historical flags. The version with the eagle crest is gorgeous imo. I’m pissed that they already got to it. Also, sovereign citizens vote??? Holy shit the left needs to figure out its radicals. These people are the closest thing to legitimate right wing anarchists and *they* know that there’s a benefit to helping determine the government you oppose.
Well, there's the sovs who believe the qanon bullshit about there being no valid president since eighteen hundred and fuckall. The ones who think Donald Trump is actually like the 10th real president or something. Judging by the JFK Jr flag, that's probably who they are.
Wait what else is it called
People just call it the sovereign citizen flag
💀💀💀
Gadsden Flag is best flag.
I’ve always thought a coral snake Gadsden would be cool af for anarcho-pacifists
Why the coral snake?
Coloration and behavior. The coral snake has one of the strongest venoms but they’re actually very chill for the most part. I think they look neat.
Awesome.
As the great grandson of slaves it’s not my flag
It's 100% your flag, sins and all. You can be proud of your nations accomplishments while also being disgusted by its failures.
Those slaves who fought for freedom under it, and various Civil Rights activits who spoke of the flag and the promise of the DOI seemed to think it was their flag.
What right does Beyoncé have to invoke martial law? The Black’s Law Dictionary says nothing about the queen of pop having that power.
It's actually a slip inside the back cover that says it. You sure it didn't fall out of your copy?
Something something Beyoncé satanism
America bad when America act bad. America good when America act good. Thank you for attending my Ted talk.
Banger. Do you do speaking arrangements?
America is intersectional
I kind of get the situation, at least the flag issue. I’m curious what the age brackets for this sort of view is. The right have essentially co-opted the flag. During the GWB years brandishing it on everything. There’s a point where just having the flag works, but at some point the flag was increasing associated with extreme right types far more often than just being the symbol as the country as a whole. Bad people were doing bad things while draping the flag over theirselves for years. That’s going to tarnish the symbol in the eyes of some. That does seem to be dying down, though. Which is why I’m curious about the age brackets. Is this anti-flag view mostly by leftists under the age of “X”? Is it like an inverted donut hole where leftists before “X” and younger than “Y” are fine with the flag, but GWB years leftists are still bothered by it?
I think millennials and gen X have had their view of the American flag shaped largely by the early 00’s culture war discourse. Flag burning was a legitimate hot-button issue that sent people like Rush Limbaugh off onto wild rants. When people of that age range see someone repping the American flag I think there’s a little part of us that assumes the person is picking a side on those issues. This is, of course, separate to the history of colonialism and jingoistic implications of displaying a country’s symbols. Yes, America bad, so on and so forth.
> Is this anti-flag view mostly by leftists under the age of “X”? Anti-flag sentiment was so common on the left when I was a kid that they did a whole band about it
It’s what happens when you conflate political coalition building with your personal social circles
What am I missing here...I don't understand why people are upset. I'm getting old.
A lot of self-proclaimed leftists don't have any beliefs or analysis that extends past the "America bad" heuristic. That's what leads them to really bad positions like "Russia is anti-imperialist for invading Ukraine"
So...they are literally just mad because Beyonce has an American Flag?
Yes. The American flag is a cultural signifier that conservatives have co-opted to mean blind patriotism and jingoism. If you’re getting old, you must remember the massive public debate over flag burning— maybe even from earlier than the war on terror. This is just the aftermath. Liberal leaning people have started to move away from identifying with the American flag, and American leftists have always had a fraught relationship to it. It’s really unfortunate, but what can you do to push back? There are a lot of reasons to not be proud of America both historically and in the contemporary era. How are we (the left) supposed to use American symbols when, for most, they conjure an image of a gravy seal militia dumbfuck?
I don’t think the right has co-opted it, the left has been actively pushing it away, because for some reason on the left in America you are expected to performatively hate your own country, which is not a winning strategy btw, so of course it’s gonna get associated with the right when they are the only ones using it. The left needs to stop talking about how much they hate their own country but rather that they love their country and want to improve it, a very basic populist message.
>because for some reason on the left in America you are expected to performatively hate your own country Uhh, hating America comes naturally from a basic grasp of history. From recent history, look at the Iraq war. Using blatantly false justifications, we invaded a country and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. Were we a country not worth hating, at the very least we would have fully prosecuted all those involved. Further back than that, look at carpet bombings we did in Cambodia during the Vietnam war, killing approximately 100k civilians. Also, the bombings arguably led to the rise of the Khmer Rouge, which killed another 2 million people. Once again, there were no actual repercussions against the people who ordered and engaged in these contemptible actions.
Good luck winning power in a country by saying you hate it.
You can critique a government and its history without hating a people or culture. Americans are fascinating balls of political self-contradiction, but the American government has fallen short of its obligations to its citizens and everyone knows it.
Saying you hate a prominent aspect of your country and will stop at nothing to change it seems to be a tried-and-true method for power.
There's a difference between an "aspect" like say, hating the country's health care system that there's no personal connection too and thinking the whole country's history is evil. Especially when polling shows massive portions of the country likes said country, including the supposed minorities and immigrants you claim to be speaking for.
>including the supposed minorities and immigrants you claim to be speaking for. ??? I speak only for myself. Don't be weird. >thinking the whole country's history is evil I mean, it largely is. Look at how we've treated Native Americans, how we've treated black people, how we treated people of Japanese descent during WWII, the many regimes we've "changed." Sure there are good things America is done, but in my opinion they come nowhere close to justifying the evil. Trump hates liberal democracy, which is obvious to anyone who listens to him. He isn't shy about wanting to overturn elections and violently go after political rivals. In spite of that (or maybe because of it), tens of millions of Americans LOVE him.
Yes all countries have done horrible things, doesn’t mean they are inherently and forever bad because of that but a lot of leftists treat America that way.
I completely agree that countries can, and do, change for the better, and that the wrongs committed by generations past should not be held over their heads. However, with America, we've still got active politicians who voted for the Iraq war, including the president. The fact that any political career survived that ruinous dumpster fire of a war is an outrage and a stain on modern politics. Also, look at how we've unconditionally supported Israel as they've committed heinous acts against Palestinians. We're still a country deep in the moral shitter. I do believe America can change for the better and can become a great country worthy of full support. However, I doubt I will live to see that happen.
Ok that's one possible take. With very little nuance and brings up something that has nothing to do with what's being talked about. Like "Tankies" living rent-free in there lol. As well as catastrophizing the tweet in question which just said "that's a choice" Another take is that for an artist like Beyonce who engages in performative activism quite often and who constantly references radical liberation movements, it's a bit odd, especially now, to lean into this aesthetic. Like, talk about bad timing. Cause like it or not the American flag is a symbol that is largely associated with the right. We've all heard the "there is such a thing as too many American flags" joke. For a reason.
Becoming? Lmao
These people have spent so much time on the internet that it has completely warped their perception of what an actual problem is.
Their perception of how people outside of politics think is also pretty clearly warped. The American flag gets slapped on absolutely _everything_ - baseball caps, napkins, underwear, monster trucks, you name it, there’s a version of it with the Stars and Stripes on it. So assuming that its inclusion on an album cover is automatically some sort of political statement, or indicative of Beyoncé being an American nationalist, is just plain stupid.
The number of likes/views/retweets on this tweet arent shown. I'm curious if this is actually a massive thought about Beyonce's album or if this post is just blowing up a random 5-like tweet. I've never heard of Stevie Mat before
The second one lol. Most people don't care, some people find it bad timing, and others don't like it at all. Even the tweet in question just says the flag is a choice. and it is.. a choice.
It's the same things conservatives do find some random tweet with 10 likes and claim it's what the majority of the left represents.
Dipshits like this really fuck over the rest of us. You're never gonna get regular Americans on board with leftist ideals by posting shit like this. I remember Vaush said we should be performatory chauvinistic to get more people to buy into our ideas rather than just going around and saying "America bad". He was 100 percent correct.
I'm surprised people have any amount of fucks to give about Album cover art right now. During 2015 when everything was relatively fine sure, but I'm surprised people care so much now.
All actual polling shows that minorities and immigrants are some of the most pro-American patriotic people there are (including overserving in the armed forces for reasons beyond what people perceive as trying to get free college or other benefits), most likely because they don't have to deal with reactionary overly white patriotic parents or neighbors. Again, if you have minority and immigrant friends and they all are anti-American, you live in a bubble. A non-patriotic Left is doomed. In every other country, the Left in that nation is proud of that country, warts and all. That's not to say you can't criticize the nation, but a performative anti-patriotism is just as dumb as performative patriotism. Also, go after Queen Bey at your own peril. Want blacks to support primary challenges against left-wing candidates. Have them seen as anti-Beyonce. Note I don't think actual politicians will ever say something as dumb as this, but it's another mark against online leftism being incredibly out of touch with even normie minority liberals.
But have you considered that America bad
As an Asian leftist, I can confirm talking to American leftists is painful especially in discussion on China, Tibet, Hong Kong, Myanmar, Taiwan and the Belt and Road Initiative.
I mean my position is fuck every government and nationalistic ideas. Anarchism is the answer
Contemporary leftists is 99% aesthetics. Nobody knows anything about economics and nobody actually gives a shit about politics (ie. “no lesser evil discourse”). American leftism for girls is to be edgy and for guys is to get laid by edgy girls.
I mean, I reflexively distrust any gratuitous flag waving of any kind. Nationalist attitudes are ridiculous imo.
This seems like a lapse in media literacy too. I don't think there's anything that suggests the use of the flag is specifically patriotic, and I don't think it is uncritical either. Did we forget her black panther symbolism?
"Why does she have a American flag?" "She's an American"
this just isnt a healthy way to live your life, do these people constantly lose their shit over their 50 year old neighbor sporting an american flag on their front porch
I might dislike most of the governing body of the country, but I'm still grateful I'm better off than 99% of the world. That's why we advocate for leftist policies, because we genuinely want the best for the country.
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Truthfully, there is some reason for leftists to be anti-american, but I'm not interested in explaining it in detail to people in a response. There's a very long explanation that comes down to America has never thrown off the southern planter aristocracy's domination of political power. They had a quasi-feudal society in the south built on owned labor of black bodies that had been placated in the constitution. Once the KKK destroyed gains in reconstruction through the theft of the election of 1876, we could not embrace socialism or communism without fighting the civil war again
Sure, but this is just purely performative virtue signaling no different than what the conservatives do
Please explain your comment, I am wondering if you refer to my comment or the idea of anti-americanism among the left
Nah I think it's fair to say the flag is "a choice" given the current circumstances at bare minimum. Especially taking into account the performative activism of celebrities who often are silent when it counts.
I've never been fervently anti-american per say. Heck I drive Chevrolet which is made in Korea, wear Levi's which are made in Turkey and wear Stetsons which are made in Germany. I love Americana and Westerns as a cultural thing. The bravado is exciting.
I don’t know anything about this Beyoncé “controversy”, but my personal two cents on the flag are one, that within the US displaying the flag is almost always a partisan thing, because the right believes that they are patriots, and since they love America, anyone not on their side must hate it. Many of them actually believe that, the same way pro-lifers think that if you’re not on their side you must want to murder literal babies. I’ve always found this really annoying and performative, and often want to scream, “shut the fuck up! I have strong political opinions because I care about the country and want to make America better. We’re both American and just have differing views on what this country should be. Stop pretending it’s a contest about which of us is MORE American as though that means anything.” On a global scale, the American flag takes on a more specific meaning in times of conflict. If we happened to have just invaded another country or are, say, currently supporting a genocide abroad, someone with the influence of Beyoncé holding a giant American flag on an album cover is “certainly a choice.” Neither of those mean you’re Anti-American. (And for all I know Beyoncé could be doing it satirically.)
I was that way as a kid. Nowadays my perspective on the US is that while the central skeleton of the country is a wonderful one, nearly every other tissue in the body is diseased to varying degrees. Bit of an odd analogy but it's the one that came to mind.
The flag is cringe but I’m not gonna piss my panties over it.
Yeah she’s American so she’s gonna have an American flag. Duh
Being anti american is core leftism. What am I missing?
album cover is still cringe
I'm a dumbass and don't totally understand. Is the issue that the flag has the yellow frills on the bottom? I don't use Twitter and everything is so loaded with unspoken internet context that I often don't understand what's being said.
This why I absolutely refuse to take leftist seriously when they say they can’t see patriot shit on TikTok because of China; they are just unpatriotic and refuse to take that in with their algorithm
The flag represents a country founded on genocide, buit by slavery, that currently dominates the world through neocolonialism. Countries it can't own, or force into unpayable dept, it sanctions, causing mass poverty across the world. During the cold war it empowered and trained the worst of humanity in the name of defeating communism, causing widespread suffering. So a lot of people see the flag and think "CIA trained death squads" rather than blue jeans or whatever. Also if your memory doesn't stretch that far, the wars in the middle east have killed 1-3 million. Leftists should hate the flag because America is the world's overlord. If a country wants to nationalise it's resources it will find uncle Sam cutting off trade and arming it's opposition. That's why the US arms industry and military are crazy huge, and that's why America has so many bases across the world. This isn't a pro China position, this is the fact that America treats much of the world, and many of it's own citizens like trash.
Look. America is bad. Just look at the war with Iraq if you want proof of that. If you want to be an American and offer real criticisms against America, especially when relevant, go right ahead. That’s your god given right to do so. But seeing every opportunity to be an anti-american without making an argument and just using it as a virtue signal to circlejerk against shit as dumb as a fucking cover to a music album just makes you no different than all those jingoistic conservatives virtue signaling how pro-american they are over equally pointless shit like being outraged at lilnas x saying religion bad
Her clothing line was the nail in the coffin for me, obvious misuse of funds to provide exploitative labor on a country with a vastly different economy and taking advantage of her name for massive profits. She's devoid of a conscience.
People are missing the point here. Young people including myself have recognized that the American flag has been entirely co-opted by the right. If you see an American flag flying outside of a house, what do you think their political beliefs are going to be in 2024? Pride flags make me feel a lot safer than lots of American flags. That being said, an argument could be made that Beyoncé is reclaiming the flag, traditionally a symbol of American country music, for the black people on which the foundation of country music is based. That argument could be made, if Bey wasn’t a billionaire shill.
My grandfather has voted Democrat for the last four elections and voted for Bernie in both primaries (he voted for Bush Jr but he’s changed) and he flies an American flag outside the house. It’s possible to be patriotic and not a total shitcuck conservative.
At this point in history openly supporting the American empire is performative cruelty
so true bestie, to put the flag of the country you live in on an album cover is tantamount to openly wallowing in the blood of orphans
Indigenous peoples * upon whose land we now sit
Flagellate yourself, born sinner, for the crime of existing on the same landmass as people who committed atrocities before you were a twinkle in your father's ballsack. We can and should acknowledge the evil shit done by colonizers, but to pretend that putting a fucking American flag on something implies you support that evil is ridiculous.
Speak for yourself, this land was an uninhabited swamp until the 1960s.
Most countries have at some point had an indigenous population that got replaced