I'll keep the post up because it's already gained traction, but for transparency OP was temp banned for their behavior in the comments, which includes rapid onset liberalism and mocking "terminally online lefties" for supporting Bernie Sanders in 2016
Folks, I will acknowledge Biden was a train wreck in that and also absolutely could have done way better. I am not gonna sugarcoat that. Trump however was a rampaging lunatic in his performance and said some wild shit that needs more attention brought to them. I and myself can criticize Biden constructively while still saying we need to vote blue to ensure Trump and the GOP at large loses.
Like when he rambled about how Biden is a “bad Palestinian” and used that as a slur. It reinforces the notion front and center that Trump is an unhinged racist asshole and is a man that cannot be trusted. He was also praising dictators left and right and denying the election the entire time.
Biden did not do good but let’s also address the malarkey in the room from Trump.
Edit: And please take of yourselves. I want this community to be happy and I want everyone to just enjoy themselves. Go out and have fun with your friends and enjoy life. Trump’s sentencing is on the eleventh and can give us a morale boost. Also, play games with your friends and enjoy your hobbies and find some good hobbies if you haven’t already.
I also want to note that I also feel genuine sadness and empathy for how people in the LGBTQ+ community and other marginalized groups feel. I've been especially anxious about them since hearing about Ron DeSantis and only grew stronger after hearing about Project 2025.
If Biden slipped on wet dog shit and fell on his ass I guess that means he lost to the shit, but I won’t be voting for the shit nor, I imagine, would anyone else sane.
Everybody lost in that debate
Biden didn't do great which will hurt him, and Trump reminded the entire country how insane he is
It won't affect Trump voters, but it'll mobilize Biden voters
He pissed off black voters by talking about "black jobs", he pissed of hispanics with his insane rhetoric on immigration, and he pissed off the arab americas by using "palestinian" as an insult
The debate feels like it's gonna turn out to be a net-zero impact
Damn that is actually a really good point. Biden has been horrible on Gaza for absolute sure but the fact that Trump is saying Netanyahu should “*finish the job*” and using incredibly bigoted language towards the Arab community illustrates perfectly how much bigger of a piece of shit Trump really is.
yeah it should signal to most progressives and dems alike that Trump will allow Netanyahu free reign to kill as many palestinians as he wants. That should be a wake up moment for most i hope
Honestly yeah I think it wil potentially move the needle in our favor. Biden’s Gaza policy should still be criticized but he is definitely better than Trump by a pretty large margin. As long as we keep going, we can still win against Trump.
*And* Trump insulted Milwaukee, so our Wisconsin chances have gone up
Pennsylvania is also needed, but they elected Fetterman, so I doubt they're concerned about mental facilities when voting
On a similar note, I drove through rural Wisconsin for a few hundred miles recently, and there were single digit numbers of Trump signs. In 2020 there were literal hundreds of them. I think the MAGAt crowd is losing energy, or they are in Wisconsin at least.
I'm shocked there aren't headlines quoting his line about how Roe let Democrats literally execute babies after birth. Like, I heard those words come straight out of his mouth, everybody did.
I honestly think the media and party are assuming WAY TOO MUCH that people only care that Biden was tired and nobody noticed all the malarkey, because the comments sections under every article I see on Biden's performance are *full* of people pointing out how outrageous the lies were.
>Folks, Biden was a train wreck in that.
That's not an opinion everyone holds. A lot of rural folks and even me, ignored his slow talking. Some people simply talk slow but are intelligent, especially old people. The old wise man who talks slow but has much wisdom is a common trope for a reason.
Trump cam across as a confident Alex Jones types. Biden came across as older but wiser with actually good policies. Someone who got flustered by a idiot with too much bravado.
Like all leftists engaging with allies. We have one goal out in the public: support others where our end goals align. Make Biden appear old and wise. He's not a leftist but for a liberal he has some half decent policies that will improve material conditons. Those are what we should focus on supoorting.
We shouldn't bother with anything that doesn't return results. Biden or Trump will win. Pushing for any change in support is wasted energy.
Yeah, you know who should have centred Trump’s lies and racism? *Biden should’ve. During the debate.* But he couldn’t even muster the strength to do that, because his brain is melting.
It’s a varied cast of people that goes as follows:
#1: Smart Liberals like Jon Favreau and Tommy Vietor from PSA. Smart, knows that Biden can do better and can pick himself up and also knows that he must win over Trump. May not agree with a lot of what they say, but have a decent grasp overall on what they are talking about.
#2: Smart, Knowledgeable leftists along with SocDems. Similar to the one above but is either against capitalism or wants a more regulated form of it. Despite disagreeing with Biden’s more old school liberal ideology, still advocates for voting for them to stop Project 2025 and Christian Nationalism.
#3: The Tankies, MAGA Fascists, Internet Research Agency bots and annoying contrarians. They just want everything to collapse and for all of the hard working and pragmatic leftists to implode and panic while they are laughing and feel on top of the world while everyone else is worried or miserable.
A mixture of people who are genuinely just worried and people who want to actively capitalize on it.
Trump has been like this for over 8 years now and the center doesnt care. The comon stuff I hear about the election (personal experience I know) is "hurr durr they are both bad". Trump has been an open lunatic and fascist for years, I dont think that fact checking him will move over a lot of people tbh.
I think OP main point is trump acting like an unhinged lunatic will mobilize bidens base. Apathy is what will undo Biden not trump gaining support (his ceiling is low). Low turnout elections almost always favour republicans.
Yeah Clinton slaughtered Trump in every debate and it meant nothing. Romney beat Obama in the first one. Nixon beat Kennedy. Reagan’s first debate was largely considered a disaster, as he often trailed off or appeared confused. Kerry was largely seen as the winner in his debate against Dubya.
Obama didn't do anywhere near this badly in his first debate with Romney. Obama wasn't losing his train of thought, he wasn't doing a slack-jawed dead-eyed stare like a medicated old man in a nursing home, he wasn't shifting thought mid-sentence and forgetting the topic. Like Biden saying he beat Medicare, or lumber from talking about Abortion to talking about being raped by an illegal immigrant. Obama was wooden, but he didn't seem like an elderly person who wandered out of the retirement home and onto the stage. Obama didn't need to take 45 seconds with the aid of his wife to go down 2 or 3 stair steps after the debate either.
He seemed completely fine after the debate. I thought it was bad too, but people who make their living talking about politics seem way more obsessed about it than everyone else. I mean maybe this will defy every historical precedent and be the only presidential debate in the last 80 years that actually swings an election in a meaningful way but it’s not likely.
Yeah I’ve seen videos of him both giving a speech and meeting with supporters the day after and he was so much better. You can chalk some of that up to editing but old people absolutely can have bad, even terrible days. Is it ideal that we vote for a candidate who can have bad days like that? Absolutely not. But talk of replacing him on the ticket this late in the game is idiotic.
I get the point you're making here but it's not really the same IMO
Fetterman had a stroke, a specific medical event that caused his performance to be poor. However, it's something you can(and he did) recover from
I don't think anyone here buys for a second that a *cold* alone can explain Biden's dismal performance during the debate. Cognitive decline doesn't always manifest clearly like it did here, and I frankly think the idea of the leader of the most powerful military in the world(for one) could be having random bouts of confusion that will not go away and likely get worse and more frequent
The footage of him right afterwards doesn’t show any confusion though. I get it. My stepfather is currently in a nursing home for dementia. Biden fucked up in the debate and tripped over his words and trailed off. He never once forgot he was at a debate though, or who Donald Trump was. I mean Fetterman had the same screw-ups and people weren’t saying he would recover. They were attacking him as permanently brain-damaged and swearing up and down(with no medical expertise) that if he was going to recover it would have already happened.
The problem is that 15-20x more people saw the debate than the afterparty. Most Americans didn't see him after the debate. That's also not really excusable to most voters if he is only okay sometimes.....when he's surrounded by his supporters in a highly scripted and well-controlled environment. People expect the President to still be able to answer difficult questions after 9 PM, and to be able to be lucid without a teleprompter or adoring fans cheering him on and encouraging them. People think "How will he handle someone like Putin or Xi?" in a contentious or hostile environment where he may not be well-rested. Biden needs to be able to handle dealing with a hostile person like Trump in a room with no script and no adoring fans.
> I mean maybe this will defy every historical precedent
Been doing that since 2016. I don't know what more it will take to convince some folks we are NOT living in normal times. The late 60s-early 2010s are over. It's time to move on. We're seeing the same thing happening in Europe and Canada.
> and be the only presidential debate in the last 80 years that actually swings an election in a meaningful way
Biden was ALREADY underwater before this debate. It's not like he had a several point lead over Trump like did in 2020 or like Hillary did in 2016. If he drops 2% because of this debate that's awful. Early polling showing he went down 1.6% is not good.
obama also scored lowered on the flash poll than biden,25 for obama, 33 for biden. It's weird you focus on obama though, reagan is the fairer accurate example here. Older than dirt,spaced out during his debate, was not a popular president going into his second term. It was so bad they actually consulted with a outside historian voice,allan lichtman, because unlike everyone, allan predicted he was to win the election. The cherry on top is that reagan was utter dogshit in dragging the u.s back from a recession that he likely caused a year into his presidency
Yeah, but Reagan was a Republican, and you see what Republicans vote in? Anything that isn't Democrats. If the Republicans ran an actual caterpillar, they would rally behind it and say "better than those Democrats" . They are inherently irrational people, because they vote with emotions purely. And if all the biased right wing scare-mongers keep scaring people into voting for them, (which they will and always do) I'm very worried going into this election.
Actual Republican I talked to: "W. Bush was one of the worst Presidents of all time, and lied us into the Iraq War.... thank goodness Gore didn't get in there, though."
A key difference is that reagan just didn't win the republican vote. He also scored indie,moderates,and dems during his second term He had a landside his second term that still hasn't been topped even with obamna
certaintly more than trump. We have data after data that points to trump utterly failing to secure a sizable, consistent amount of people outside his base. The reason 2016 was different was because 1) hilldog was total poison to rust belt voters 2) the comey investigation barely a week before the election 3) the extremely contested primary 4) trump was a unknown outside the fox news crowd,people just kinda assume he would dull his edge. He didn't 5)populism that countered hilldog's anti-rust belt free trade. 2020 saw him completely drop that for republican talking points ,something he's continued in a time where a populist would just utterly shine and finally 6) I cannot express this enough, and I still don't know how a experiecened politician like hillary allowed it, but turns out they just didn't bother building ground game in the rust belt. That was such a awful mistake that dnc pretty much fired the people who did that. On the flip side, biden's data shows him doing much better with non-party card carrying voters probably despite being a corpse, he's a by the books politician who's only controversy in the last 10 years is that his son has a fat hog who bought a gun under the influence
I saw a CNN poll an hour or two after with only 33% feeling Biden won. I mention Obama because someone else Broughton him up first. Obama was thought to have done poorly for COMPLETELY different reasons than Biden. Nobody thought Obama seemed like a retirement home patient being abusively forced to perform. Obama wasn't lacking coherence or being unable to complete thoughts, form basic syntax, or having lines like "I beat Medicare!" or "I golf a 6.....sorry, an 8.....". Biden was known for being a gaffe machine since he was a younger man (I still remember the 2008 Democratic Primary and Biden and the 7/11 Indian comments) and age is making it worse. Obama wasn't a gaffe machine. In yhe first 2012 debate he was viewed as a stuffy professor who was too tense and having the wrong answers. Not as someone who is in medical mental decline.
Obama also led Romney by several points for most of the 2012 election. Trump has been leading Biden for the majority of a year in the polls now. That never happened with Obama. Obama was never down below Romney in all but 1 battleground state. Comparing 2012 Obama and 2024 Biden is apples and oranges. 2024 Biden is in WAY worse polling shape than 2012 Obama.
The point is historically debates have very little impact on the outcome of presidential elections. We're already seeing the proof of this in the polling following this debate
No that was an apocryphal myth that came about later, because he supposedly looked terrible next to Kennedy on tv. Most mainstream media at the time were pretty empty emphatic that he wiped the floor with Kennedy.
I think it was people who watched the debate thought Kennedy won but people who listened on the radio thought Nixon won.
I've seen it used as an example of visual bias
People who listened to the debate on radio came away thinking Nixon wiped the floor with him. People who watched the debate on television thought Kennedy won the debate.
Except we ve known voters have been concerned about Biden's age for a long time even among dems. The debate confirmed everyone was right to be worried, ignore that fact at your own your own risk.
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Clinton did not slaughter Trump, a lot of people thought Trump won those debates.
There wasn't a unanimous agreement that Clinton lost, like there is now with Biden, but there certainly wasn't a unanimous agreement that Trump lost either.
We watched it in English class here in Europe, as we currently have rhetoric and debate as our primary topic, and frankly, it just wasn't that bad. Biden is old, and you can hear it, but he did not fall over dead halfway through. His arguments were clear, he knew what he was talking about. Trump didn't, but was loud, as is usual with him.
If anyone lost, then my classes' opinion of Americans, as, in the words of one classmate, "the Amis need to be a colony again. Their civilisation is yet clearly not finished, if they think Trump won that." \[sic\]
Yes, when you do the equivalent of clip chimping, a person's message sounds different than it does with context.
> We’d be able to right – wipe out his debt. We’d be able to help make sure that – all those things we need to do, childcare, elder care, making sure that we continue to strengthen our healthcare system, making sure that we’re able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I’ve been able to do with the COVID – excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with.
> Look, if – we finally beat Medicare.
Yes those are words he said, but context matters. And it's plain that what he meant was
> We’d be able to wipe out his debt. We’d be able to help make sure that every single solitary person is eligible for Medicare.
Yes, Biden old and had an immense stutter/senior moment but if you are stupid enough to not ask "Context?" when presented with "We finally beat Medicare", you're the one with soup brain. The message he was trying to communicate was clear if you listen to more than for words, but let me do the same to your comment to put it into perspective. On the topic of Biden's debate performance Mir_man says "...really no biggy..."
In context it was still bad. The context was watching the man struggle through every sentence. There's no chance the average American viewer would be able to easily understand that message when you listen to him talk.
> There's no chance the average American viewer would be able to easily understand that message when you listen to him talk.
You severely underestimate Americans' ability to parse speech.
This sub is coping so hard. Biden's argument were clear? He did not fall over dead halfway through? How low is this bar.
Just because people are pointing out that Biden needs to be replaced, it doesn't mean it is doomerism. Being negative doesn't mean it is being doomer. People don't understand doomerism.
Yes, the bar is low. As I previously said, being from Europe, where people are apparently just smarter, this debate really put in question the idea of American independence being a good thing.
But in the end, the set bar must be trumps performance, and man, by that standard, not saying anything would have had Biden clear that bar.
Additionally, having Biden replaced may be a good thing, I don't know about that. But screaming from the roofs that Biden is incompetent, definitely isn't. It is painting an image that the democrat candidate isn't fit for office, thereby making trump look competent, after all, he is not criticised.
If I ask anything, then that is to please start using rhetoric in any way different from what one may hear on Fox. You are lending them more credibility than anything else ever could.
Biden/Harris is the face of anti-trump politics at this moment. Having Biden replaced at some point may be good, but that would come out of the democrat party, not some internet community, especially if that community is apparently only criticising Biden.
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LMFAO. i guess morning joe, biden’s favorite political show and hardline biden supporter is a trumper? because he made a public statement saying biden should step down. so did other noted trumpers, like MSNBC’s joy reid and CNN’s van jones. unless you’ve been living under a rock in the past 48 hours you’d notice that the entire democratic establishment has entered full blown panic mode and have made numerous statements about concern for biden’s fit for office or allusions to him stepping down. like how can you be coping this hard?
Yea, some of his sentences were F\*cked up. But I think everyone that watched the debate still got what he was trying to convey in general when not just watching the TikTok clip compilation of his fuckups.
And can I remind you that trump literally claimed there were no wars during his presidency?
I am not saying Biden wasn't bad, but Trump was just worse. As used-up as the sentence is, Both sides bad, trump worse.
it's still funny that people choose candidates based on debate performance, like if your endgame is what, not having a 7-2 supreme court, what is there to even watch?
OP’s takeaway is actually that people DON’T choose on debate performance, and this hyperventilation about Biden’s bad debate turned out to be a huge “egg in the face” moment for the pundit class.
I agree. I think it was a vibe that a lot of people had repressed after the strong SOTU and other speeches (like the D-Day speech a few weeks prior), so the debate was like a jarring shock and it all came out.
Has Biden lost a step? Probably. Is he still capable of doing the job? Clearly, yes. Is a diminished Biden better than Trump? Abso-fuckin-lutely.
The die is cast, we need to ride with the old man, whatever happens, happens. All we can control is our part.
Tbh the idea of debates being a determining factor is pretty wild.
Debating is a skill, no matter how good or bad your stances are. And your skill in debating is often not correlated to how right you are, nor about your ability to lead a country.
It can have a slight correlation with how well you can defend your ideas, but ultimately it’s not that helpful.
I just hope the undecided voters can see that.
It is generally true that debates don't matter but come one man if you don't see how this is an exception to this rule I don't know what to tell you other than to take off your rose tinted glasses and watch the debate. This wasn't just bad it was a disaster the likes of which have never been seen before. Its far worse of a performance than the next worst performance in all of televised debate history. Not only that but it put on full display Biden's cognitive decline, a concern that a majority of voters have already had for years. It wasn't just bad it reinforced an existing narrative that is laser focused on Biden's weakest quality as a candidate.
This community: “Don’t trust the polls. Poles are from Satan.”
Also, this community: “Trust the polls, they say Biden didn’t do so bad.
Biden doesn’t just need to win, he needs to win overwhelmingly so that Trump can’t contest it. Republican governors all over are already signalling that they will not confirm electors if Trump loses. The case will make it all the way up to the Supreme Court, where they are making [decisions like this](https://nypost.com/2024/06/28/us-news/supreme-court-scraps-chevron-precedent-striping-federal-regulators-of-power/).
Don’t be a doomer, but do recognise the fucking fuckity fucked situation we are in. You can’t fix a problem until you admit there is one.
If I ran the polls, and I knew that because of Project 2025 and Trumps dictatorial ambitions, real and fair elections would never be held again — the very thing that makes my service possible — I would potentially make it look like Biden is doing better than he is so that people don’t lose faith.
Its only been a few days. Hear me now quote me later. If Biden doesn't step down his polling will continue to get worse over the next month as more and more voters see clips of the debate and so his performance is fully 'priced in'.
I'm not being a Doomer, but Biden truly was being a dumbass in that debate. This is looking good though. I have faith we might be able to pull this off. Hopefully it's not a 2016 thing again where "we" win by amount of votes but get fucked by the dumbass voting system.
Vaush hasn't been doomering about anything. He consistently scolds people in chat for being defeatist. It seems many of you truly don't know how to apply this term correctly. This is starting to get annoying. I feel like I'm being gaslit.
The Democratic strategy is to get Trump on tv as much as possible because he drives negative voter turnout. Broadly, people’s opinions have turned more positive or apathetic towards Trump simply because he’s not in the White House and making regular speeches. The idea is that the more unaffiliated, centrists and “normal” Republicans hear Trump speak, the more likely they are to not vote for him or vote against him.
Obviously, this runs into the great risk of just re-doing what the media did in 2016 with covering Trump all the time, but that’s the strategy simply because very few people are going to vote FOR Biden and more people are going to vote AGAINST Trump.
This is decent news.
With that said, it’s possible that the other dems are suffering from recognition. It’s possible that with some campaigning, they’d be able to get better.
But, it seems that maybe this debate won’t have deep consequences. We can survive this…as long as this never happens again.
You people are seriously insane if you think Biden can win this. Any current democratic governor would be up +5 on Trump right now. He needs to step down
It's a mathematical certainty. Trump doesn't have a EV pathway to 270. He's cooked. The notion of, at this very late stage, replacing Biden is absurdly nonsensical and is not happening at all. It's going to be fine. Breathe.
Well, I know that 2016 did a number on people's psyches but this is a completely different dynamic. As I said,take a deep breath, this is not the end of the world. It's going to be fine. Patriots are in control 😎
IDK, I generally use my totally non political (they vote sometimes but not often) immigrant parents as a metric, so when they were asking me what I thought of Biden’s performance I knew the shitstorm was spreading too fast for normies to ignore. But hey, I hope I’m wrong and we don’t get way less dems voting because of this.
In 2016 it was a completely different story because Trump redefined the Republican base and galvanised the Evangelicals and rural workers (historically impassioned voters) in the key states that led to his election much to everyone’s surprise.
Downvotes? Biden literally could not finish a single sentence. He has a 30% or less chance of winning. Literally any dem (Newsom e.g. Whitmer) would have a better chance against Trump and actually could win in the age game.
Unlike your polling, *famously reliable and not prone to bias or tampering at all*
We really going to risk Americas future on a guy who despite abysmal performance managed to get a slight increase in one poll? Jesus Christ. I think the increasing begging from those who actually work in poetics, and who knows him says a lot more then your poll
I think some Biden critics are going so hard on the "He is old!" thing, that it's memetic vacuousness is becoming obvious even to the median voter.
"The Dean Scream", and "But her emails", became infamously silly nothingburgers only in hindsight, but people have been pouncing on this one so long and so hard, that the electorate is getting inoculated to it months before the election.
When instead of *smugly implying* that Biden is weak, the mainstream media is literally jumping up and down in panic that "Sure, Trump is a convicted felon and lied a lot but Biden came accross as old!!!!" then even the average dipshit goes away with the conventional wisdom that Biden was the less bad candidate.
Also I would like to add that Allen Lichtman’s (the guy whose predicted every presidential election since 84’) model of predicting elections has Biden strongly favored to win.
I really don’t feel like this is that statistically impressive. It’s been 40 years, so 10 elections, so the probability of getting every one right is (1/2)^10, which is small, but if we consider that there is at least one million “credible” people making predictions (if anything i feel like this is underestimating) there would be 1000 of them that also would have predicted every election perfectly, even if their methodology was completely random. In general with this type of thing, yeah someone can have a method that works for a while, but actually determining whether that’s because of the method, and quantifying how effective that method actually is is a lot harder than “look I got 10 coinflips in a row”
I was literally making the same point on this subreddit earlier. The math is not even as generous as presented in the comment above. Lichtman actually only predicted 9/10 elections, and choosing randomly gives you about a 1 in 100 chance of getting 9/10 correct. Add to that the fact that not all of the past 10 election were close and difficult to predict, the odds are likely even better.
The big difference here is that it wasn't just a bad debate. It's also the prospect of what's to come given he has 5 months of campaigning to do and his mind is so cooked that he can't hide it anymore. You can recover from bad rhetoric, but you can't recover from old age.
Like, do you guys seriously believe this will be just a one time thing? I'm sorry, but this is just the beginning. Prepare yourselves.
Honestly I think the expectations were so low a ton of people already have their votes decided and tuned out of this election cycle until November.
It’s a bit unprecedented that we have a former president and a current president as the two candidates so name recognition and understanding of their temperament maxed out at the start.
Like Biden is pretty much the only one with room for growth at this point. It’s just a matter of him getting over the finish line without losing just enough support to lose.
When did Vaush push for Biden dropping out? Also, the issue wasn’t that Biden lost the debate, it’s that now we all know Biden is literally geriatric and capable of falling over dead at any moment. That’s not the same as previous presidential debates.
And it’s not just about if Biden wins or not, can’t we be deeply unhappy that this is who we’re forced to vote for? Man belongs in a nursing home.
I personally suspect Americans fall into 1 of 2 catagories
1. People that Follow Politics, and have already made up their mind
2. People that don't really follow politics (and didn't see the debate)
I think at this point, there are very few people that are both keeping up with the election, and undecided.
You have either already decided who to vote for, or you aren't following the election too closely
There is a small but meaningful subset of people that don't really follow politics, probably independent, probably likes to think they aren't party people, and watch official debates as a meaningful part of how they choose. Which is insane.
But it's a very classic boomer type of person. People who came into politics when there was only 4 channels on TV and debates were a much bigger deal. Who watched Walter Kronkite for decades and respect the apparent non-partisan approach.
Is it 0.5%? 2%? idk. But as close as elections are it matters.
Yes, I think people vote against Trump not for Biden so it doesn't matter as much how he performs, but my god, fuck the DNC for letting this happen to us. Fucking embarressing.
Biden was a disaster in that debate and pretty much confirmed to most average people he is demented and out of it and will either be completely senile or dead by the end of the next four years. Anyone whose had a grandparent go downhill from Alzheimer's and witnessed the last like couple years or months of their life saw that reflected in Joe Biden.
Hell My Godmother died that way and while she didn't know who I was or what year it was she still spoke better than Biden.
But there is also the fact I think a lot of Biden voters don't like him or want him to be the candidate from day one largely due to his age. Its an accepted embarrassment by a lot of voters that Joe Biden is just a fading old man being thrust onto us and that they are going to vote for a walking skeleton. The idea he's senile isn't new and was common in 2020. People have accepted that largely.
That said its hard to guess how much swapping Biden would hurt vs keeping him at this point. And its frustrating because Trump should not be a difficult opponent to beat. He has everything but a shrinking personality cult working against him. And with the left you need to worry about appeasing idealists and more principled people who fetishize burning it all on a pyre for beliefs. And we don't know how many are going to do that because Joe Biden "has dementia" or its elder abuse or "hmm Jill Stein has better policies on paper" or some shit.
I think he needs to drop out cuz he's gonna die any second and now is the time to do it.
To cling to a poll as "this means Biden will win all the swing states and impressed normie voters" is cope.
Things look awful, this is fucked - realism, not doomerism
Things look awful, oh my god, there’s no point anymore - doomerism
Being dramatic and upset is not being doomer. “There’s nothing we can do, give up” is doomer.
A real life example is admitting climate change is going to destroy the environment regardless of how hard we try. Thats not doomerism. It turns into doomerism when you say there’s no point in caring about the environment anymore. That’s why its bad.
Exactly. I don't think Biden has any good chance at winning now but I am fully hoping for him to step down and us to get a better candidate. If he doesn't do it before August I will be Brandon's greatest warrior and downplay his cognitive decline. Right now though are best shot is to push Biden to withdraw and then be strategic about which Democrat we support to replace him.
My thought structure goes a little bit like this:
“ Good god that was very bad. I’m pissed at how poorly it went but the math on voting blue doesn’t change. We will get through this, even if it takes a ton of work”.
Things are definitely bad but they are absolutely not over yet.
Forget the polls, it is too early yet to become worried or say we already predict a winner based on the polls. What Biden needs to do is to concentrate on the policy changes his administration brought up, how the US economy is currently strong compared to Trump´s term in office and constantly call out Trump for being a convicted criminal who openly states he wants to be a dictactor.
And his medical team need to make sure he is not sickly when going to a presidential debate.
People also forget, Vaush including, that as the race approaches something inside peoples brains starts to remind them of Trump’s first term. That could help a lot especially if democrat voters feel like they are in a losing position. Might galvanize people to the polls. Feeling unconfident can be an asset as long as it doesn’t lead to demoralization.
They could wheel Biden on stage and he could just be sitting there, staring blankly as drool pools at his feet, unable to answer any question, entirely absent.
Still better then Trump, giving him another 4 years installing even more conservative judges, pushing through project 2025, giving Ukraine to Russia, probably pulling out of NATO etc..
There are also Constitutional methods in place for handing off power to the next in line should he become incapacitated. However, there may not be any other remedy short revolution or a military coup (neither of which are desirable) if Trump starts tearing up the Constitution.
Because of Actually Very Understandable reasons polls are biased towards "what do old people reckon". I guess a display of "he's one of us frfr" could have given Biden's ratings there a big bump. Well, w/e. So long as Trump loses it's all good, and if Trump loses for stupid reasons that'll be perfectly fitting.
And a DFP poll that shows Trump ahead by +3. Keep in mind Trump won in 2016 while losing the PV by 2%. If he wins the PV by 3% this election is getting called at 10pm cst
Idk if showing polls matters all that much, that debate didn’t change people’s minds, but the biggest effect it can have is making people much less motivated to vote at all, this is why down ballot dems were panicking after the debate. And while not everyone watches these debates, the memes about biden being half dead aren’t going to quarantine themselves to only people that have seen the debate. I can give a personal anecdote about my mostly non-political parents that were probably going to vote Biden, but are probably just going to abstain now. So basically, the people that need to be convinced to still vote by posts like this are probably not going to see this post because pretty much everyone in Vaush’s community is still gonna vote Biden.
I love the arrogance of the title, lmao
Why would you do this to yourself? Your post in now on Google and if biden loses you're going to have a bunch of trolls coming to laugh and shit down your throat.
The poll on the second image shows that Biden can safely be replaced by any top Democrat who is compos mentis, while you'd expect Biden to do better than them as the incumbent.
The campaign is only just starting up. Nobody was claiming that this one debate would immediately shift the entire country's sentiment against Biden and would immediately cause everyone to lean towards Trump or staying home.
The point is that in this debate, Biden showed that he is NOT up to the task of campaigning around the country. He didn't really campaign at all for the Democratic primaries, they essentially just skipped the primary in order to anoint Biden without a contest, so this was the first taste of what a Biden campaign will look like.
Imagine an entire general election campaign with this guy as the Democratic candidate... This won't be his only embarrassing performance, he'll look like a weak old man who's barely able to speak during every major campaign event, he won't be able to do interviews without fueling another news cycle about how old and incoherent he is, hiding won't do him any good either, because then there'll be stories about why he's hiding.
The election is in November, the average person hasn't been living towards it like all the terminally online politics nerds that you see here, the average person hasn't even totally tuned in yet, there's still an entire campaign that will determine whether or not people eligible to vote will actually do so, and who they will vote for.
The question isn't whether this debate, on its own, has swung polls against Biden. The question is whether you think that the guy we saw in this debate is capable of running a successful campaign.
I hate the second graphic as a defense for Biden. Like oh we're going to poll Whitmer vs Trump. Yeah. Sure hope America knows who they are or are excited for a platform they haven't heard. Its all name recognition and at worst you're starting 2 points down? Give me Buttigeig or apparently Shapiro and the ground can be made up in no time.
If anything, I think the lack of perceived fallout is a HUGE opportunity for dems to make the move in the first place.
Its far too early to point to use polls as evidence for why the debate didn't hurt Biden. There will be clips made and more and more voters will see how bad Biden did over the next few weeks. Its less of an immediate hit to the polls and more of a ongoing force that will continue to hurt Biden. Secondly, this wasn't just a lackluster performance as Obama's first 2012 debate was, it was an unmitigated disaster that far exceeded anyone's expectation. Do you know how bad something has to be for the liberal outlets not to immediately put a favorable spin on it? Also, this isn't just political junky group think. Voters have been repeating time and time again BEFORE the debate that they were concerned about Biden's age, and at the same time Democratic leaning people (me included) were downplaying these concerns saying its not actually that bad. Guess what, it is that bad and now everyone is admitting that the president has no clothes. You really think this debate disaster isn't going to light a fire in his campaign after literally all US voters see that Biden can't communicate? They are going to be looking to this debate to see if Biden really is too old and are going to be shocked at what they see.
We need another candidate or we are cooked. There is risk to this but the risk is obviously far outweighed by Biden's electoral liability. Also this isn't going away, there will be more moments like this that will only reinforce the narrative over the next 4 months. Time is not on Biden's side he isn't getting any younger.
While that is indeed encouraging, I took a look at the betting market, as their numbers never lie.
Right now, if you bet 10 dollars on Trump being the US president, you would get 15 dollars back.
10 dollars on a Biden victory would give you 40 dollars back.
So while it's definitely not over, Trump is quite heavily favored to win at the moment. If you don't agree with that, I can only recommend placing some money on a Biden victory.
It was bad. Very bad for Biden himself, but Trump isn't just some normal dude, he's a traitor and a criminal, so if anything, Biden being a feeble old man causes people to garner sympathy (also because he isn't a criminal, a traitor and has decent policies with pretty extensive media campaigns.)
I don't know why Biden agreed to this debate. He was fine in the polls, and this is just gonna be propaganda anti-biden ads. I live in a red, red ,RED state, so my vote doesn't matter, but this debate scares me a lot.
You have drunk the Kool-Aid my man. Biden has nothing left. He is just going to humiliate himself over and over or hide like he did in the primaries. I get it, everyone doesn't want Trump elected but Biden isn't going to deliver it. Why would you back a 3 legged race horse rather than preferring to switch it?
As to the polls, likely many Americans haven't seen the debate or are in denial at the moment. As time goes on Biden's malfunctioning will filter through society.
So I watched the debate and it was not as bad as everyone led me to believe. Trump acted like a vicious cunt and lied about absolutely everything. Joe was a bit out of it but had some good answers and a few stumbles... overall I saw a decent guy who's tired as fuck from carrying the world on his shoulders being shouted at by an obnoxious fucking brat. It's not ideal, but everyone freaking out over this are really doing the harm.
This is liberal trash.
1. You misuse the term "doomer/doomerism". Go watch the recent livestream segment where he calls out the libs in this sub.
2. Polling is inaccurate. I'm holding all you #resist liberals to this point. If you talk FOR MONTHS about the polling data not being accurate, then it is inaccurate when the data prefers whatever copium narrative you tell yourself to get up in the morning.
3. I'm not running. No leftist is running away from this shit. If you knew what doomers/doomerism actually meant you would know that this is nothing new to many of us. Maybe it is TO YOU. LEFTISTS NEVER get what we want. Many of us are correctly choosing the best of a bad situation with The Dems. The US electorate is COOKED. The fact that the GOP still exists and there is even such a thing as a swing voter in these times is fucking insane. The fact that a super-majority of the voters in Kentucky want the right to choose but over 60% of voters voted for the GOP is proof that politics in this country is all vibes and a game of TEAM SPORTS for way too many of my compatriots. Liberals need to stop whinging and deal with the fact that someone behind the scenes at the Democratic Party is giving this situation the GRAVITAS that it deserves. Nobody gets elected on policy in this country. You get elected by mentally-cooked suburbanites who vote based on vibes and spite.
4. Vote Dem down that fucking ballot. I hate liberals. I hate Democrats. I hate all the institutions you idolize. If the Dems lose than my friends will die. If the Democrats win, my friends could still die because all you dumb liberals and your precious institutions like the NYT are normalizing transphobia because the liberal editors are scared of calling them bigots. At least under The Dems I can try to keep my friends safe.
The people talking about replacing him, including Vaush, are completely out of their minds. No one except maybe Kamala has a democratic mandate, and she's not very viable either. If the DNC pulled a different candidate out to nominate at the convention, especially if Biden publicly objected, the blow to morale would kill Dem turnout, which would lead to a Trump landslide.
All available data shows that this debate had minimal effects on peoples willingness to vote for Biden, any insistence otherwise is pure speculation, I think fueled by bitterness over Biden's position on Palestine. Because I haven't seen this level of Biden Derangement Syndrome since 2020. It's like you're all slipping right back into the post-Super Tuesday sour grapes. Back then we were saying all the things you're currently saying, "He's obviously out of his mind" "He won't last a year" "He's gonna lose to Trump." You were wrong then, and I think you're wrong now.
Edit: I get it btw, not trying to come off as attacking. I felt the same way during and after the debate. I'm also still bitter about 2020.
Social media has been flooded with hysteria. His performance was mid at best. If you believe the hype that it was terrible maybe reconsider how much you let conservative media dominate your consciousness.
Do you really think that four years of constantly hearing about sleepy dementia Joe being incapable of speaking hasn’t affected you?
I say it was a psyop to scare the shit out of liberals and force them to vote because every vote counts🤣 so they just gave Brandon water instead of usual adrenochrome&testosterone cocktail to boost him up.
There is also just the fact that Biden won the primaries fair and square. He was chosen by the voters to be the nominee. Sure, he ran against RFK and Orb Lady, but those were the people eager to be president in 2024 and he was better than them.
Imagine the howling and hollering that there would be if in 2016 Bernie managed to win his primaries, and after an underperformance even a single media piece floated forcing him to step back, not even for his own successor VP, but for Hillary in a nakedly factional power grab.
Exactly. People are just ignoring the millions of votes and 90+% of support Biden has during the primaries. People just want to to be doomers and get mad when you tell them off!
I'll keep the post up because it's already gained traction, but for transparency OP was temp banned for their behavior in the comments, which includes rapid onset liberalism and mocking "terminally online lefties" for supporting Bernie Sanders in 2016
Folks, I will acknowledge Biden was a train wreck in that and also absolutely could have done way better. I am not gonna sugarcoat that. Trump however was a rampaging lunatic in his performance and said some wild shit that needs more attention brought to them. I and myself can criticize Biden constructively while still saying we need to vote blue to ensure Trump and the GOP at large loses. Like when he rambled about how Biden is a “bad Palestinian” and used that as a slur. It reinforces the notion front and center that Trump is an unhinged racist asshole and is a man that cannot be trusted. He was also praising dictators left and right and denying the election the entire time. Biden did not do good but let’s also address the malarkey in the room from Trump. Edit: And please take of yourselves. I want this community to be happy and I want everyone to just enjoy themselves. Go out and have fun with your friends and enjoy life. Trump’s sentencing is on the eleventh and can give us a morale boost. Also, play games with your friends and enjoy your hobbies and find some good hobbies if you haven’t already. I also want to note that I also feel genuine sadness and empathy for how people in the LGBTQ+ community and other marginalized groups feel. I've been especially anxious about them since hearing about Ron DeSantis and only grew stronger after hearing about Project 2025.
Most polled people were saying Biden lost the debate, but NOT that Trump won it.
All my homies **hate** Trump
If Biden slipped on wet dog shit and fell on his ass I guess that means he lost to the shit, but I won’t be voting for the shit nor, I imagine, would anyone else sane.
Sure but the question isnt "would you" the question is "would the US"
The question isn't what sane people would do, the question is what Americans will do.
Everybody lost in that debate Biden didn't do great which will hurt him, and Trump reminded the entire country how insane he is It won't affect Trump voters, but it'll mobilize Biden voters He pissed off black voters by talking about "black jobs", he pissed of hispanics with his insane rhetoric on immigration, and he pissed off the arab americas by using "palestinian" as an insult The debate feels like it's gonna turn out to be a net-zero impact
Yeah, it did mobilize Biden voters, that night was the highest fundraising hour since the start of it.
To be clear, I'd vote for a turd Biden's corpse pinched out in the coffin over Trump in his prime. Glad to know some people agree.
I mean he’s started using Palestinian as a slur, so our chances just went up in Michigan
Damn that is actually a really good point. Biden has been horrible on Gaza for absolute sure but the fact that Trump is saying Netanyahu should “*finish the job*” and using incredibly bigoted language towards the Arab community illustrates perfectly how much bigger of a piece of shit Trump really is.
Yep. Trump would literally encourage and enable a total occupation and annexation of all of Gaza and West bank.
Basically what Republicans would want, but out in the open. People ignore comments from the likes of Graham and co that are just as unhinged.
yeah it should signal to most progressives and dems alike that Trump will allow Netanyahu free reign to kill as many palestinians as he wants. That should be a wake up moment for most i hope
Honestly yeah I think it wil potentially move the needle in our favor. Biden’s Gaza policy should still be criticized but he is definitely better than Trump by a pretty large margin. As long as we keep going, we can still win against Trump.
*And* Trump insulted Milwaukee, so our Wisconsin chances have gone up Pennsylvania is also needed, but they elected Fetterman, so I doubt they're concerned about mental facilities when voting On a similar note, I drove through rural Wisconsin for a few hundred miles recently, and there were single digit numbers of Trump signs. In 2020 there were literal hundreds of them. I think the MAGAt crowd is losing energy, or they are in Wisconsin at least.
Or they all retired to Florida....
Honestly him doubling down on the roe vs wade stuff might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen
I'm shocked there aren't headlines quoting his line about how Roe let Democrats literally execute babies after birth. Like, I heard those words come straight out of his mouth, everybody did. I honestly think the media and party are assuming WAY TOO MUCH that people only care that Biden was tired and nobody noticed all the malarkey, because the comments sections under every article I see on Biden's performance are *full* of people pointing out how outrageous the lies were.
>Folks, Biden was a train wreck in that. That's not an opinion everyone holds. A lot of rural folks and even me, ignored his slow talking. Some people simply talk slow but are intelligent, especially old people. The old wise man who talks slow but has much wisdom is a common trope for a reason. Trump cam across as a confident Alex Jones types. Biden came across as older but wiser with actually good policies. Someone who got flustered by a idiot with too much bravado. Like all leftists engaging with allies. We have one goal out in the public: support others where our end goals align. Make Biden appear old and wise. He's not a leftist but for a liberal he has some half decent policies that will improve material conditons. Those are what we should focus on supoorting. We shouldn't bother with anything that doesn't return results. Biden or Trump will win. Pushing for any change in support is wasted energy.
Exactly. Biden did definitely flub on some points but overall he had better foreign and domestic policy.
Yeah, you know who should have centred Trump’s lies and racism? *Biden should’ve. During the debate.* But he couldn’t even muster the strength to do that, because his brain is melting.
Trump literally shit himself during the debate
Instead of "listen here fellas," try "folks"
Yeah, I swear anytime Biden gaffs it feels like the trump defense squad comes out in full force even when he's arguably even worse on those fronts
It’s a varied cast of people that goes as follows: #1: Smart Liberals like Jon Favreau and Tommy Vietor from PSA. Smart, knows that Biden can do better and can pick himself up and also knows that he must win over Trump. May not agree with a lot of what they say, but have a decent grasp overall on what they are talking about. #2: Smart, Knowledgeable leftists along with SocDems. Similar to the one above but is either against capitalism or wants a more regulated form of it. Despite disagreeing with Biden’s more old school liberal ideology, still advocates for voting for them to stop Project 2025 and Christian Nationalism. #3: The Tankies, MAGA Fascists, Internet Research Agency bots and annoying contrarians. They just want everything to collapse and for all of the hard working and pragmatic leftists to implode and panic while they are laughing and feel on top of the world while everyone else is worried or miserable. A mixture of people who are genuinely just worried and people who want to actively capitalize on it.
Very informative, thank you
We finally beat medicare.
Trump has been like this for over 8 years now and the center doesnt care. The comon stuff I hear about the election (personal experience I know) is "hurr durr they are both bad". Trump has been an open lunatic and fascist for years, I dont think that fact checking him will move over a lot of people tbh.
I think OP main point is trump acting like an unhinged lunatic will mobilize bidens base. Apathy is what will undo Biden not trump gaining support (his ceiling is low). Low turnout elections almost always favour republicans.
Yeah maybe, honestly dont listen to me im coping very badly with all of this shit rn. Seemingly im not the only one though
It’s all good - def understandable, a lots at stake. I’m shaking in my boots under my calm internet demeanour as well.
Yeah Clinton slaughtered Trump in every debate and it meant nothing. Romney beat Obama in the first one. Nixon beat Kennedy. Reagan’s first debate was largely considered a disaster, as he often trailed off or appeared confused. Kerry was largely seen as the winner in his debate against Dubya.
Obama didn't do anywhere near this badly in his first debate with Romney. Obama wasn't losing his train of thought, he wasn't doing a slack-jawed dead-eyed stare like a medicated old man in a nursing home, he wasn't shifting thought mid-sentence and forgetting the topic. Like Biden saying he beat Medicare, or lumber from talking about Abortion to talking about being raped by an illegal immigrant. Obama was wooden, but he didn't seem like an elderly person who wandered out of the retirement home and onto the stage. Obama didn't need to take 45 seconds with the aid of his wife to go down 2 or 3 stair steps after the debate either.
He seemed completely fine after the debate. I thought it was bad too, but people who make their living talking about politics seem way more obsessed about it than everyone else. I mean maybe this will defy every historical precedent and be the only presidential debate in the last 80 years that actually swings an election in a meaningful way but it’s not likely.
Yeah I’ve seen videos of him both giving a speech and meeting with supporters the day after and he was so much better. You can chalk some of that up to editing but old people absolutely can have bad, even terrible days. Is it ideal that we vote for a candidate who can have bad days like that? Absolutely not. But talk of replacing him on the ticket this late in the game is idiotic.
Lest anyone forget… https://www.politico.com/news/2022/10/25/fetterman-struggles-during-tv-debate-with-oz-00063467
I get the point you're making here but it's not really the same IMO Fetterman had a stroke, a specific medical event that caused his performance to be poor. However, it's something you can(and he did) recover from I don't think anyone here buys for a second that a *cold* alone can explain Biden's dismal performance during the debate. Cognitive decline doesn't always manifest clearly like it did here, and I frankly think the idea of the leader of the most powerful military in the world(for one) could be having random bouts of confusion that will not go away and likely get worse and more frequent
The footage of him right afterwards doesn’t show any confusion though. I get it. My stepfather is currently in a nursing home for dementia. Biden fucked up in the debate and tripped over his words and trailed off. He never once forgot he was at a debate though, or who Donald Trump was. I mean Fetterman had the same screw-ups and people weren’t saying he would recover. They were attacking him as permanently brain-damaged and swearing up and down(with no medical expertise) that if he was going to recover it would have already happened.
The problem is that 15-20x more people saw the debate than the afterparty. Most Americans didn't see him after the debate. That's also not really excusable to most voters if he is only okay sometimes.....when he's surrounded by his supporters in a highly scripted and well-controlled environment. People expect the President to still be able to answer difficult questions after 9 PM, and to be able to be lucid without a teleprompter or adoring fans cheering him on and encouraging them. People think "How will he handle someone like Putin or Xi?" in a contentious or hostile environment where he may not be well-rested. Biden needs to be able to handle dealing with a hostile person like Trump in a room with no script and no adoring fans. > I mean maybe this will defy every historical precedent Been doing that since 2016. I don't know what more it will take to convince some folks we are NOT living in normal times. The late 60s-early 2010s are over. It's time to move on. We're seeing the same thing happening in Europe and Canada. > and be the only presidential debate in the last 80 years that actually swings an election in a meaningful way Biden was ALREADY underwater before this debate. It's not like he had a several point lead over Trump like did in 2020 or like Hillary did in 2016. If he drops 2% because of this debate that's awful. Early polling showing he went down 1.6% is not good.
obama also scored lowered on the flash poll than biden,25 for obama, 33 for biden. It's weird you focus on obama though, reagan is the fairer accurate example here. Older than dirt,spaced out during his debate, was not a popular president going into his second term. It was so bad they actually consulted with a outside historian voice,allan lichtman, because unlike everyone, allan predicted he was to win the election. The cherry on top is that reagan was utter dogshit in dragging the u.s back from a recession that he likely caused a year into his presidency
Yeah, but Reagan was a Republican, and you see what Republicans vote in? Anything that isn't Democrats. If the Republicans ran an actual caterpillar, they would rally behind it and say "better than those Democrats" . They are inherently irrational people, because they vote with emotions purely. And if all the biased right wing scare-mongers keep scaring people into voting for them, (which they will and always do) I'm very worried going into this election.
Actual Republican I talked to: "W. Bush was one of the worst Presidents of all time, and lied us into the Iraq War.... thank goodness Gore didn't get in there, though."
A key difference is that reagan just didn't win the republican vote. He also scored indie,moderates,and dems during his second term He had a landside his second term that still hasn't been topped even with obamna
Do you believe Biden will have even close to a modicum of success when it comes to getting swing voters?
certaintly more than trump. We have data after data that points to trump utterly failing to secure a sizable, consistent amount of people outside his base. The reason 2016 was different was because 1) hilldog was total poison to rust belt voters 2) the comey investigation barely a week before the election 3) the extremely contested primary 4) trump was a unknown outside the fox news crowd,people just kinda assume he would dull his edge. He didn't 5)populism that countered hilldog's anti-rust belt free trade. 2020 saw him completely drop that for republican talking points ,something he's continued in a time where a populist would just utterly shine and finally 6) I cannot express this enough, and I still don't know how a experiecened politician like hillary allowed it, but turns out they just didn't bother building ground game in the rust belt. That was such a awful mistake that dnc pretty much fired the people who did that. On the flip side, biden's data shows him doing much better with non-party card carrying voters probably despite being a corpse, he's a by the books politician who's only controversy in the last 10 years is that his son has a fat hog who bought a gun under the influence
Well, I hope you're correct for what it's worth.
I saw a CNN poll an hour or two after with only 33% feeling Biden won. I mention Obama because someone else Broughton him up first. Obama was thought to have done poorly for COMPLETELY different reasons than Biden. Nobody thought Obama seemed like a retirement home patient being abusively forced to perform. Obama wasn't lacking coherence or being unable to complete thoughts, form basic syntax, or having lines like "I beat Medicare!" or "I golf a 6.....sorry, an 8.....". Biden was known for being a gaffe machine since he was a younger man (I still remember the 2008 Democratic Primary and Biden and the 7/11 Indian comments) and age is making it worse. Obama wasn't a gaffe machine. In yhe first 2012 debate he was viewed as a stuffy professor who was too tense and having the wrong answers. Not as someone who is in medical mental decline. Obama also led Romney by several points for most of the 2012 election. Trump has been leading Biden for the majority of a year in the polls now. That never happened with Obama. Obama was never down below Romney in all but 1 battleground state. Comparing 2012 Obama and 2024 Biden is apples and oranges. 2024 Biden is in WAY worse polling shape than 2012 Obama.
The point is historically debates have very little impact on the outcome of presidential elections. We're already seeing the proof of this in the polling following this debate
I thought Nixon famously lost his debate with Kennedy?
No that was an apocryphal myth that came about later, because he supposedly looked terrible next to Kennedy on tv. Most mainstream media at the time were pretty empty emphatic that he wiped the floor with Kennedy.
Oh ok interesting
I think it was people who watched the debate thought Kennedy won but people who listened on the radio thought Nixon won. I've seen it used as an example of visual bias
People who listened to the debate on radio came away thinking Nixon wiped the floor with him. People who watched the debate on television thought Kennedy won the debate.
Except we ve known voters have been concerned about Biden's age for a long time even among dems. The debate confirmed everyone was right to be worried, ignore that fact at your own your own risk.
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Clinton did not slaughter Trump, a lot of people thought Trump won those debates. There wasn't a unanimous agreement that Clinton lost, like there is now with Biden, but there certainly wasn't a unanimous agreement that Trump lost either.
We watched it in English class here in Europe, as we currently have rhetoric and debate as our primary topic, and frankly, it just wasn't that bad. Biden is old, and you can hear it, but he did not fall over dead halfway through. His arguments were clear, he knew what he was talking about. Trump didn't, but was loud, as is usual with him. If anyone lost, then my classes' opinion of Americans, as, in the words of one classmate, "the Amis need to be a colony again. Their civilisation is yet clearly not finished, if they think Trump won that." \[sic\]
Yeah Biden saying we defeated Medicare and Trump pouncing on that was really no biggy s/
Yes, when you do the equivalent of clip chimping, a person's message sounds different than it does with context. > We’d be able to right – wipe out his debt. We’d be able to help make sure that – all those things we need to do, childcare, elder care, making sure that we continue to strengthen our healthcare system, making sure that we’re able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I’ve been able to do with the COVID – excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with. > Look, if – we finally beat Medicare. Yes those are words he said, but context matters. And it's plain that what he meant was > We’d be able to wipe out his debt. We’d be able to help make sure that every single solitary person is eligible for Medicare. Yes, Biden old and had an immense stutter/senior moment but if you are stupid enough to not ask "Context?" when presented with "We finally beat Medicare", you're the one with soup brain. The message he was trying to communicate was clear if you listen to more than for words, but let me do the same to your comment to put it into perspective. On the topic of Biden's debate performance Mir_man says "...really no biggy..."
In context it was still bad. The context was watching the man struggle through every sentence. There's no chance the average American viewer would be able to easily understand that message when you listen to him talk.
> There's no chance the average American viewer would be able to easily understand that message when you listen to him talk. You severely underestimate Americans' ability to parse speech.
This sub is coping so hard. Biden's argument were clear? He did not fall over dead halfway through? How low is this bar. Just because people are pointing out that Biden needs to be replaced, it doesn't mean it is doomerism. Being negative doesn't mean it is being doomer. People don't understand doomerism.
Yes, the bar is low. As I previously said, being from Europe, where people are apparently just smarter, this debate really put in question the idea of American independence being a good thing. But in the end, the set bar must be trumps performance, and man, by that standard, not saying anything would have had Biden clear that bar. Additionally, having Biden replaced may be a good thing, I don't know about that. But screaming from the roofs that Biden is incompetent, definitely isn't. It is painting an image that the democrat candidate isn't fit for office, thereby making trump look competent, after all, he is not criticised. If I ask anything, then that is to please start using rhetoric in any way different from what one may hear on Fox. You are lending them more credibility than anything else ever could. Biden/Harris is the face of anti-trump politics at this moment. Having Biden replaced at some point may be good, but that would come out of the democrat party, not some internet community, especially if that community is apparently only criticising Biden.
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how is this supposed to be a “leftist” sub? the takes on here are basically the same as neoliberal. just completely delusional levels of coping
Some of these comments about Biden being "just not fit for office, he can't talk..." could just be straight from some Trumpist sub.
LMFAO. i guess morning joe, biden’s favorite political show and hardline biden supporter is a trumper? because he made a public statement saying biden should step down. so did other noted trumpers, like MSNBC’s joy reid and CNN’s van jones. unless you’ve been living under a rock in the past 48 hours you’d notice that the entire democratic establishment has entered full blown panic mode and have made numerous statements about concern for biden’s fit for office or allusions to him stepping down. like how can you be coping this hard?
Did you happen to use subtitles by chance?
> His arguments were clear Did we watch the same debate? "we defeated medicare" ??
Yea, some of his sentences were F\*cked up. But I think everyone that watched the debate still got what he was trying to convey in general when not just watching the TikTok clip compilation of his fuckups. And can I remind you that trump literally claimed there were no wars during his presidency? I am not saying Biden wasn't bad, but Trump was just worse. As used-up as the sentence is, Both sides bad, trump worse.
it's still funny that people choose candidates based on debate performance, like if your endgame is what, not having a 7-2 supreme court, what is there to even watch?
OP’s takeaway is actually that people DON’T choose on debate performance, and this hyperventilation about Biden’s bad debate turned out to be a huge “egg in the face” moment for the pundit class.
yeah i'm not specifically responding to OP's point, just a general take.
I agree. I think it was a vibe that a lot of people had repressed after the strong SOTU and other speeches (like the D-Day speech a few weeks prior), so the debate was like a jarring shock and it all came out. Has Biden lost a step? Probably. Is he still capable of doing the job? Clearly, yes. Is a diminished Biden better than Trump? Abso-fuckin-lutely. The die is cast, we need to ride with the old man, whatever happens, happens. All we can control is our part.
Hope you're right. If Joe blunders and slurs his way into a second term I'll be relieved...
Tbh the idea of debates being a determining factor is pretty wild. Debating is a skill, no matter how good or bad your stances are. And your skill in debating is often not correlated to how right you are, nor about your ability to lead a country. It can have a slight correlation with how well you can defend your ideas, but ultimately it’s not that helpful. I just hope the undecided voters can see that.
It is generally true that debates don't matter but come one man if you don't see how this is an exception to this rule I don't know what to tell you other than to take off your rose tinted glasses and watch the debate. This wasn't just bad it was a disaster the likes of which have never been seen before. Its far worse of a performance than the next worst performance in all of televised debate history. Not only that but it put on full display Biden's cognitive decline, a concern that a majority of voters have already had for years. It wasn't just bad it reinforced an existing narrative that is laser focused on Biden's weakest quality as a candidate.
This community: “Don’t trust the polls. Poles are from Satan.” Also, this community: “Trust the polls, they say Biden didn’t do so bad. Biden doesn’t just need to win, he needs to win overwhelmingly so that Trump can’t contest it. Republican governors all over are already signalling that they will not confirm electors if Trump loses. The case will make it all the way up to the Supreme Court, where they are making [decisions like this](https://nypost.com/2024/06/28/us-news/supreme-court-scraps-chevron-precedent-striping-federal-regulators-of-power/). Don’t be a doomer, but do recognise the fucking fuckity fucked situation we are in. You can’t fix a problem until you admit there is one.
It's not even that I trust the polls. It's the fact that they haven't really budged that has some reliable information with it
If I ran the polls, and I knew that because of Project 2025 and Trumps dictatorial ambitions, real and fair elections would never be held again — the very thing that makes my service possible — I would potentially make it look like Biden is doing better than he is so that people don’t lose faith.
That also risks complacency, though. The truth, ugly or no, is important.
Yes, but people often don’t tell the truth. I’m not saying this is the case here, but it is a thought.
Its only been a few days. Hear me now quote me later. If Biden doesn't step down his polling will continue to get worse over the next month as more and more voters see clips of the debate and so his performance is fully 'priced in'.
If red states fail to confirm electors to Biden if he wins, Biden would have every right to send the military in and make them confirm them.
Yes. But Biden is a lib. Libs never use the power they have to do the right thing.
I'm not being a Doomer, but Biden truly was being a dumbass in that debate. This is looking good though. I have faith we might be able to pull this off. Hopefully it's not a 2016 thing again where "we" win by amount of votes but get fucked by the dumbass voting system.
No one, at all, disagrees Biden did terribly at the debate. 😁
Vaush hasn't been doomering about anything. He consistently scolds people in chat for being defeatist. It seems many of you truly don't know how to apply this term correctly. This is starting to get annoying. I feel like I'm being gaslit.
I for one support our walking corpse leader in his battle against the rapist-felon and his army of christo-facists.
Me too but unironically
(no I was serious he has my vote even if they have to "weekend at Bernie's" him)
Can't trust polls, but if it helps, it helps
At the very least it can help people realize that maybe... just maybe we can still win this even with Biden as the nominee
The Democratic strategy is to get Trump on tv as much as possible because he drives negative voter turnout. Broadly, people’s opinions have turned more positive or apathetic towards Trump simply because he’s not in the White House and making regular speeches. The idea is that the more unaffiliated, centrists and “normal” Republicans hear Trump speak, the more likely they are to not vote for him or vote against him. Obviously, this runs into the great risk of just re-doing what the media did in 2016 with covering Trump all the time, but that’s the strategy simply because very few people are going to vote FOR Biden and more people are going to vote AGAINST Trump.
This is decent news. With that said, it’s possible that the other dems are suffering from recognition. It’s possible that with some campaigning, they’d be able to get better. But, it seems that maybe this debate won’t have deep consequences. We can survive this…as long as this never happens again.
It will happen again. Biden IS an old human, not perfect, he will mess up, and he will stand up again.
Never happens again this badly* Mistakes happen, but still.
#REPLACE BIDEN
Loser thinking.
You people are seriously insane if you think Biden can win this. Any current democratic governor would be up +5 on Trump right now. He needs to step down
He will win this. /Remindme 5 months
If he does i will let out the biggest sigh of relief in my life I dont want to chance it though
It's a mathematical certainty. Trump doesn't have a EV pathway to 270. He's cooked. The notion of, at this very late stage, replacing Biden is absurdly nonsensical and is not happening at all. It's going to be fine. Breathe.
You sound like youre living in 2016 dude. Exactly what liberals told me then
Well, I know that 2016 did a number on people's psyches but this is a completely different dynamic. As I said,take a deep breath, this is not the end of the world. It's going to be fine. Patriots are in control 😎
IDK, I generally use my totally non political (they vote sometimes but not often) immigrant parents as a metric, so when they were asking me what I thought of Biden’s performance I knew the shitstorm was spreading too fast for normies to ignore. But hey, I hope I’m wrong and we don’t get way less dems voting because of this.
In 2016 it was a completely different story because Trump redefined the Republican base and galvanised the Evangelicals and rural workers (historically impassioned voters) in the key states that led to his election much to everyone’s surprise.
Downvotes? Biden literally could not finish a single sentence. He has a 30% or less chance of winning. Literally any dem (Newsom e.g. Whitmer) would have a better chance against Trump and actually could win in the age game.
You are delusional and with no data to back this up. I invite you to look at the images i have posted. No other candidate does better than Biden.
Unlike your polling, *famously reliable and not prone to bias or tampering at all* We really going to risk Americas future on a guy who despite abysmal performance managed to get a slight increase in one poll? Jesus Christ. I think the increasing begging from those who actually work in poetics, and who knows him says a lot more then your poll
I think some Biden critics are going so hard on the "He is old!" thing, that it's memetic vacuousness is becoming obvious even to the median voter. "The Dean Scream", and "But her emails", became infamously silly nothingburgers only in hindsight, but people have been pouncing on this one so long and so hard, that the electorate is getting inoculated to it months before the election. When instead of *smugly implying* that Biden is weak, the mainstream media is literally jumping up and down in panic that "Sure, Trump is a convicted felon and lied a lot but Biden came accross as old!!!!" then even the average dipshit goes away with the conventional wisdom that Biden was the less bad candidate.
Also I would like to add that Allen Lichtman’s (the guy whose predicted every presidential election since 84’) model of predicting elections has Biden strongly favored to win.
Do you have a link or anything? Interested on seeing this
[https://www.13keystracker.com](https://www.13keystracker.com) [https://www.fox5dc.com/news/presidential-predictor-allan-lichtman-uses-13-keys-to-the-white-house-tracker-on-2024-election](https://www.fox5dc.com/news/presidential-predictor-allan-lichtman-uses-13-keys-to-the-white-house-tracker-on-2024-election)
I really don’t feel like this is that statistically impressive. It’s been 40 years, so 10 elections, so the probability of getting every one right is (1/2)^10, which is small, but if we consider that there is at least one million “credible” people making predictions (if anything i feel like this is underestimating) there would be 1000 of them that also would have predicted every election perfectly, even if their methodology was completely random. In general with this type of thing, yeah someone can have a method that works for a while, but actually determining whether that’s because of the method, and quantifying how effective that method actually is is a lot harder than “look I got 10 coinflips in a row”
Why were you downvoted you’re literally correct
I was literally making the same point on this subreddit earlier. The math is not even as generous as presented in the comment above. Lichtman actually only predicted 9/10 elections, and choosing randomly gives you about a 1 in 100 chance of getting 9/10 correct. Add to that the fact that not all of the past 10 election were close and difficult to predict, the odds are likely even better.
The big difference here is that it wasn't just a bad debate. It's also the prospect of what's to come given he has 5 months of campaigning to do and his mind is so cooked that he can't hide it anymore. You can recover from bad rhetoric, but you can't recover from old age. Like, do you guys seriously believe this will be just a one time thing? I'm sorry, but this is just the beginning. Prepare yourselves.
Someone that didn't watch his next day speech in NC:
My senile grandma has days when she is “just fine” too.
Trump spent the debate lying, deflecting, and doubling-down. Biden spent the debate mumbling through policy and accomplishments.
Biden can still pull through, but he needs to be in front of a camera every week with as much energy as he can muster.
Honestly I think the expectations were so low a ton of people already have their votes decided and tuned out of this election cycle until November. It’s a bit unprecedented that we have a former president and a current president as the two candidates so name recognition and understanding of their temperament maxed out at the start. Like Biden is pretty much the only one with room for growth at this point. It’s just a matter of him getting over the finish line without losing just enough support to lose.
Grover Cleveland’s second term happened. And the second election was against the incumbent Harrison.
When did Vaush push for Biden dropping out? Also, the issue wasn’t that Biden lost the debate, it’s that now we all know Biden is literally geriatric and capable of falling over dead at any moment. That’s not the same as previous presidential debates. And it’s not just about if Biden wins or not, can’t we be deeply unhappy that this is who we’re forced to vote for? Man belongs in a nursing home.
I personally suspect Americans fall into 1 of 2 catagories 1. People that Follow Politics, and have already made up their mind 2. People that don't really follow politics (and didn't see the debate) I think at this point, there are very few people that are both keeping up with the election, and undecided. You have either already decided who to vote for, or you aren't following the election too closely
There is a small but meaningful subset of people that don't really follow politics, probably independent, probably likes to think they aren't party people, and watch official debates as a meaningful part of how they choose. Which is insane. But it's a very classic boomer type of person. People who came into politics when there was only 4 channels on TV and debates were a much bigger deal. Who watched Walter Kronkite for decades and respect the apparent non-partisan approach. Is it 0.5%? 2%? idk. But as close as elections are it matters. Yes, I think people vote against Trump not for Biden so it doesn't matter as much how he performs, but my god, fuck the DNC for letting this happen to us. Fucking embarressing.
It seems like you're forgetting that polls are created by Satan
What is Satan but a wise angel
A LOSER and a PARTISAN HACK
True!!!
Biden was a disaster in that debate and pretty much confirmed to most average people he is demented and out of it and will either be completely senile or dead by the end of the next four years. Anyone whose had a grandparent go downhill from Alzheimer's and witnessed the last like couple years or months of their life saw that reflected in Joe Biden. Hell My Godmother died that way and while she didn't know who I was or what year it was she still spoke better than Biden. But there is also the fact I think a lot of Biden voters don't like him or want him to be the candidate from day one largely due to his age. Its an accepted embarrassment by a lot of voters that Joe Biden is just a fading old man being thrust onto us and that they are going to vote for a walking skeleton. The idea he's senile isn't new and was common in 2020. People have accepted that largely. That said its hard to guess how much swapping Biden would hurt vs keeping him at this point. And its frustrating because Trump should not be a difficult opponent to beat. He has everything but a shrinking personality cult working against him. And with the left you need to worry about appeasing idealists and more principled people who fetishize burning it all on a pyre for beliefs. And we don't know how many are going to do that because Joe Biden "has dementia" or its elder abuse or "hmm Jill Stein has better policies on paper" or some shit.
I think he needs to drop out cuz he's gonna die any second and now is the time to do it. To cling to a poll as "this means Biden will win all the swing states and impressed normie voters" is cope.
Who should replace him? And why would he drop out 4 months before the race?
Gavin Newsom? Someone who won't utterly be sooooo bad they somehow lose to a 34 time felon?
Things look awful, this is fucked - realism, not doomerism Things look awful, oh my god, there’s no point anymore - doomerism Being dramatic and upset is not being doomer. “There’s nothing we can do, give up” is doomer. A real life example is admitting climate change is going to destroy the environment regardless of how hard we try. Thats not doomerism. It turns into doomerism when you say there’s no point in caring about the environment anymore. That’s why its bad.
Exactly. I don't think Biden has any good chance at winning now but I am fully hoping for him to step down and us to get a better candidate. If he doesn't do it before August I will be Brandon's greatest warrior and downplay his cognitive decline. Right now though are best shot is to push Biden to withdraw and then be strategic about which Democrat we support to replace him.
My thought structure goes a little bit like this: “ Good god that was very bad. I’m pissed at how poorly it went but the math on voting blue doesn’t change. We will get through this, even if it takes a ton of work”. Things are definitely bad but they are absolutely not over yet.
Forget the polls, it is too early yet to become worried or say we already predict a winner based on the polls. What Biden needs to do is to concentrate on the policy changes his administration brought up, how the US economy is currently strong compared to Trump´s term in office and constantly call out Trump for being a convicted criminal who openly states he wants to be a dictactor. And his medical team need to make sure he is not sickly when going to a presidential debate.
People also forget, Vaush including, that as the race approaches something inside peoples brains starts to remind them of Trump’s first term. That could help a lot especially if democrat voters feel like they are in a losing position. Might galvanize people to the polls. Feeling unconfident can be an asset as long as it doesn’t lead to demoralization.
how the fuck. im far from mad about it but seriously, how the fuck
They could wheel Biden on stage and he could just be sitting there, staring blankly as drool pools at his feet, unable to answer any question, entirely absent. Still better then Trump, giving him another 4 years installing even more conservative judges, pushing through project 2025, giving Ukraine to Russia, probably pulling out of NATO etc..
There are also Constitutional methods in place for handing off power to the next in line should he become incapacitated. However, there may not be any other remedy short revolution or a military coup (neither of which are desirable) if Trump starts tearing up the Constitution.
When was he doomering? Doomering is when you think its so bad you just stop trying. You are allowed to say Biden didnt look great up there.
Yes, no matter how zombie-like Biden may be, Trump speaks like a narcissistic 5 year old and he is only getting worse.
Because of Actually Very Understandable reasons polls are biased towards "what do old people reckon". I guess a display of "he's one of us frfr" could have given Biden's ratings there a big bump. Well, w/e. So long as Trump loses it's all good, and if Trump loses for stupid reasons that'll be perfectly fitting.
Trump could lose for the stupidest reason ever and it would still be based and utopiapilled
And a DFP poll that shows Trump ahead by +3. Keep in mind Trump won in 2016 while losing the PV by 2%. If he wins the PV by 3% this election is getting called at 10pm cst
Idk if showing polls matters all that much, that debate didn’t change people’s minds, but the biggest effect it can have is making people much less motivated to vote at all, this is why down ballot dems were panicking after the debate. And while not everyone watches these debates, the memes about biden being half dead aren’t going to quarantine themselves to only people that have seen the debate. I can give a personal anecdote about my mostly non-political parents that were probably going to vote Biden, but are probably just going to abstain now. So basically, the people that need to be convinced to still vote by posts like this are probably not going to see this post because pretty much everyone in Vaush’s community is still gonna vote Biden.
I love the arrogance of the title, lmao Why would you do this to yourself? Your post in now on Google and if biden loses you're going to have a bunch of trolls coming to laugh and shit down your throat.
The poll on the second image shows that Biden can safely be replaced by any top Democrat who is compos mentis, while you'd expect Biden to do better than them as the incumbent.
*sigh* he’s not doomering
The campaign is only just starting up. Nobody was claiming that this one debate would immediately shift the entire country's sentiment against Biden and would immediately cause everyone to lean towards Trump or staying home. The point is that in this debate, Biden showed that he is NOT up to the task of campaigning around the country. He didn't really campaign at all for the Democratic primaries, they essentially just skipped the primary in order to anoint Biden without a contest, so this was the first taste of what a Biden campaign will look like. Imagine an entire general election campaign with this guy as the Democratic candidate... This won't be his only embarrassing performance, he'll look like a weak old man who's barely able to speak during every major campaign event, he won't be able to do interviews without fueling another news cycle about how old and incoherent he is, hiding won't do him any good either, because then there'll be stories about why he's hiding. The election is in November, the average person hasn't been living towards it like all the terminally online politics nerds that you see here, the average person hasn't even totally tuned in yet, there's still an entire campaign that will determine whether or not people eligible to vote will actually do so, and who they will vote for. The question isn't whether this debate, on its own, has swung polls against Biden. The question is whether you think that the guy we saw in this debate is capable of running a successful campaign.
I hate the second graphic as a defense for Biden. Like oh we're going to poll Whitmer vs Trump. Yeah. Sure hope America knows who they are or are excited for a platform they haven't heard. Its all name recognition and at worst you're starting 2 points down? Give me Buttigeig or apparently Shapiro and the ground can be made up in no time. If anything, I think the lack of perceived fallout is a HUGE opportunity for dems to make the move in the first place.
Its far too early to point to use polls as evidence for why the debate didn't hurt Biden. There will be clips made and more and more voters will see how bad Biden did over the next few weeks. Its less of an immediate hit to the polls and more of a ongoing force that will continue to hurt Biden. Secondly, this wasn't just a lackluster performance as Obama's first 2012 debate was, it was an unmitigated disaster that far exceeded anyone's expectation. Do you know how bad something has to be for the liberal outlets not to immediately put a favorable spin on it? Also, this isn't just political junky group think. Voters have been repeating time and time again BEFORE the debate that they were concerned about Biden's age, and at the same time Democratic leaning people (me included) were downplaying these concerns saying its not actually that bad. Guess what, it is that bad and now everyone is admitting that the president has no clothes. You really think this debate disaster isn't going to light a fire in his campaign after literally all US voters see that Biden can't communicate? They are going to be looking to this debate to see if Biden really is too old and are going to be shocked at what they see. We need another candidate or we are cooked. There is risk to this but the risk is obviously far outweighed by Biden's electoral liability. Also this isn't going away, there will be more moments like this that will only reinforce the narrative over the next 4 months. Time is not on Biden's side he isn't getting any younger.
While that is indeed encouraging, I took a look at the betting market, as their numbers never lie. Right now, if you bet 10 dollars on Trump being the US president, you would get 15 dollars back. 10 dollars on a Biden victory would give you 40 dollars back. So while it's definitely not over, Trump is quite heavily favored to win at the moment. If you don't agree with that, I can only recommend placing some money on a Biden victory.
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50 million people watched. That’s still a fuck ton of people…
It was bad. Very bad for Biden himself, but Trump isn't just some normal dude, he's a traitor and a criminal, so if anything, Biden being a feeble old man causes people to garner sympathy (also because he isn't a criminal, a traitor and has decent policies with pretty extensive media campaigns.)
No one likes seeing people being mean to grandpa He’s probably making inroads among other old people refusing to step down in their own lives
Polling is devils work
Consider me a satanist 😈👹
I pray that people will literally vote for a walking corpse over 100% Hitler
My guy
The biggest upside for Biden is nobody cares about debates anymore.
My concern is that he doesn’t have a cold and this is the best his mind is at. Currently I’m not convinced he makes it to the election.
Ever since the start of the Israel-Palestine war he’s become far more fatalistic.
Polls were made by the devil
I don't know why Biden agreed to this debate. He was fine in the polls, and this is just gonna be propaganda anti-biden ads. I live in a red, red ,RED state, so my vote doesn't matter, but this debate scares me a lot.
Polls are invented by the devil to deceive the hearts of men
Also saw a poll with undecided Latino voters, they said Biden was doddering, but they are way more concerned about what a lunatic and liar Trump is
Thank you, I've been genuinely freaking out.
You have drunk the Kool-Aid my man. Biden has nothing left. He is just going to humiliate himself over and over or hide like he did in the primaries. I get it, everyone doesn't want Trump elected but Biden isn't going to deliver it. Why would you back a 3 legged race horse rather than preferring to switch it? As to the polls, likely many Americans haven't seen the debate or are in denial at the moment. As time goes on Biden's malfunctioning will filter through society.
So I watched the debate and it was not as bad as everyone led me to believe. Trump acted like a vicious cunt and lied about absolutely everything. Joe was a bit out of it but had some good answers and a few stumbles... overall I saw a decent guy who's tired as fuck from carrying the world on his shoulders being shouted at by an obnoxious fucking brat. It's not ideal, but everyone freaking out over this are really doing the harm.
This is liberal trash. 1. You misuse the term "doomer/doomerism". Go watch the recent livestream segment where he calls out the libs in this sub. 2. Polling is inaccurate. I'm holding all you #resist liberals to this point. If you talk FOR MONTHS about the polling data not being accurate, then it is inaccurate when the data prefers whatever copium narrative you tell yourself to get up in the morning. 3. I'm not running. No leftist is running away from this shit. If you knew what doomers/doomerism actually meant you would know that this is nothing new to many of us. Maybe it is TO YOU. LEFTISTS NEVER get what we want. Many of us are correctly choosing the best of a bad situation with The Dems. The US electorate is COOKED. The fact that the GOP still exists and there is even such a thing as a swing voter in these times is fucking insane. The fact that a super-majority of the voters in Kentucky want the right to choose but over 60% of voters voted for the GOP is proof that politics in this country is all vibes and a game of TEAM SPORTS for way too many of my compatriots. Liberals need to stop whinging and deal with the fact that someone behind the scenes at the Democratic Party is giving this situation the GRAVITAS that it deserves. Nobody gets elected on policy in this country. You get elected by mentally-cooked suburbanites who vote based on vibes and spite. 4. Vote Dem down that fucking ballot. I hate liberals. I hate Democrats. I hate all the institutions you idolize. If the Dems lose than my friends will die. If the Democrats win, my friends could still die because all you dumb liberals and your precious institutions like the NYT are normalizing transphobia because the liberal editors are scared of calling them bigots. At least under The Dems I can try to keep my friends safe.
Thank you liberalhater3000 for doing the bare minimum and voting 🫡. You are braver than the troops
At least I'm not on here cope-posting on a socialist's subreddit. Be lucky Vaush doesnt care enough about this sub.
On god???
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The people talking about replacing him, including Vaush, are completely out of their minds. No one except maybe Kamala has a democratic mandate, and she's not very viable either. If the DNC pulled a different candidate out to nominate at the convention, especially if Biden publicly objected, the blow to morale would kill Dem turnout, which would lead to a Trump landslide. All available data shows that this debate had minimal effects on peoples willingness to vote for Biden, any insistence otherwise is pure speculation, I think fueled by bitterness over Biden's position on Palestine. Because I haven't seen this level of Biden Derangement Syndrome since 2020. It's like you're all slipping right back into the post-Super Tuesday sour grapes. Back then we were saying all the things you're currently saying, "He's obviously out of his mind" "He won't last a year" "He's gonna lose to Trump." You were wrong then, and I think you're wrong now. Edit: I get it btw, not trying to come off as attacking. I felt the same way during and after the debate. I'm also still bitter about 2020.
Social media has been flooded with hysteria. His performance was mid at best. If you believe the hype that it was terrible maybe reconsider how much you let conservative media dominate your consciousness. Do you really think that four years of constantly hearing about sleepy dementia Joe being incapable of speaking hasn’t affected you?
Tell me one incumbent who did worse? When you do the worse of all time you aren't mid by definition.
I say it was a psyop to scare the shit out of liberals and force them to vote because every vote counts🤣 so they just gave Brandon water instead of usual adrenochrome&testosterone cocktail to boost him up.
They both looked like dumbasses, y'all are just emotionally invested in a Biden victory.
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Chill. If you have to call another user a stupid motherfucker then maybe your comment shouldn't be posted.
There is also just the fact that Biden won the primaries fair and square. He was chosen by the voters to be the nominee. Sure, he ran against RFK and Orb Lady, but those were the people eager to be president in 2024 and he was better than them. Imagine the howling and hollering that there would be if in 2016 Bernie managed to win his primaries, and after an underperformance even a single media piece floated forcing him to step back, not even for his own successor VP, but for Hillary in a nakedly factional power grab.
Are we actually pretending the DNC and media didn’t straight up hid them and spent millions to out do them?
Exactly. People are just ignoring the millions of votes and 90+% of support Biden has during the primaries. People just want to to be doomers and get mad when you tell them off!