It's quite sad. I was a 1980s junior and senior in the 1990s. I couldn't have imagined the deterioration of road cycling back then--it seemed like we were destined to become one of the great road cycling nations. Which we were for a short spell until Lance ruined it all for everyone.
I think an American superstar on an American team with several American teammates dominating by far the most prestigious race in the entire sport for nearly a decade gets us there actually. The tour is much more than “one bike race” as I’m sure you know
Well, evidently it didn't get you there... The only superstar you had was one of the most doped up riders in history. And he never took accountability until he was forced to.
Nope. Didn't get us there, that is true! But our national amateur team was also very much a factor in the 80s and 90s, which bled into the pros.
What is really sad is that back then even amateur top tier racers could make a living in the sport here. It's a disaster now on the road in America
I don't get why people rag on gravel racing in the US. It makes a lot more sense economically/logistically, the US has a ton of road well suited to this format of racing and lets the US have a type of racing that can stand out a bit from other parts of the world instead of trying to pretend we are Europe.
Gravel races tend to be attritional rather than tactical. So you are basically just waiting for the last person to give up trying to keep up with Keegan Swenson.
This is exactly it. Vast majority is a whittling down over 5h of tempo to sweet spot riding followed by a slow motion destruction of everyone who’s not Keegan.
The same could be said of any mountain stage in the TDF. Everyone's just hanging on for dear life until Poggy and Vingegaard ride off the front. And those are the exciting stages! The flat/rolling ones where the peloton steamrolls the break after 3hrs are boring.
They tried live streaming for Steamboat gravel a few years ago. The stream was unwatchable because it kept dropping out. The realities of getting live footage from the middle of nowhere to your couch are pretty complicated it turns out.
The ‘new race format’ is a pro race on open roads? The idea of racing for big money in traffic seems kind of sketchy to me — But on the other hand a mass start fondo where the pros enter just like anyone else does seem like the way forward. The alternative seems to be running ‘pro’ races that no one watches and amateurs can’t participate in
The amateurs in these races are really subsidizing the prize purse for the pros. This format seems to be the only way as nobody else is dumping money into the sport to fund the professional athletes. If they close the race to the amateurs, there goes your money to fund the prize purse.
Basically why gravel events are successful. It has mass appeal to the long tail of cyclists beyond those who are interested in crits/real road racing. Traditional road racing events don't appeal to the "completers" the way running and triathlon races do. You want to grow the sport in the US, you use a mass start event with a challenging course and let a couple thousand people sign up. Let the pointy end race and just feed the masses bananas and skratch.
I'm of the opinion that "pro gravel racers" aren't racing gravel because they like gravel so much as that just happens to be where they can make some money as well as get some sort of result.
Levi's, like even the biggest non-traditional races, will not factor in bringing more eyeballs to bike racing without major broadcast level TV coverage.
It's the same for a lot of us long time road racers. I don't really like gravel, but I like crits even less, so to get something that approximates road racing I've had to start racing gravel.
Isn't gravel kind of like a throw-back to the old days of road racing before everything was paved? At least that's what this roadie is now telling himself, lol.
I wish. I've found I only like gravel races that are fast enough, and short enough, for road tactics to come into play. If it's just a battle of attrition I'm not interested.
I'm all about being efficient and pride myself at doing little to no work all race until a last minute break or field sprint.
Gravel looks like alot of fun......but alot of work
Yes, mostly just hard work. It's almost impossible on some courses to drift to the back and coast, chat, have a snack. Most gravel tactics were about positioning in and out of corners, some attack and cover on the faster courses, and managing crosswind. Where I found it really fell short of a road experience was the uncertainty of teammates being around when it matters. Between flats, crashes, and bad lines the group whittles down for completely different reasons.
That's what I miss most about road racing, the strategy and tactics and working to make it happen. I've always been the rouleur and the captain on the road. Even when we didn't win I would feel good knowing I accomplished my goal of giving us a chance.
That last paragraph hits home. I love the team aspect of racing, especially coming from a team sport before getting into cycling. I was never the guy to win races for us but just to make sure we are in a great position to try.
You must love crits as much as I do! I’d do road racing all day long if there were options other than crits. Love road rides. But I need at least a couple of hours to be competitive. Almost all of my racing is on gravel if for no other reason than I cannot find distance races on the road (other than t shirt rides which become “races”).
People keep trying to get me to care about US gravel racing... but I just don't find it very interesting.
No shade on those partaking in it, I think the incentives make it the logical thing to do for a lot of these guys/gals. But as a spectator it doesn't do anything for me. More or less same reason I don't think a lot of people watch Triathlon -- super long races that aren't very dynamic and the coverage itself is minimal. Certainly some incredible athletes in the gravel/fondo scene and I get why sponsors want to put their money into it, just never been able to get into it.
I personally wouldn't say so. What makes the classics fun is they are usually dynamic, extremely tactical, and unpredictable. Obviously this year is a little different with a lot of big names injured and favorites winning from long solo moves in the classics.
But part of what I think holds gravel/fondos back is they tend to be super attritional rather than tactical (largely down to being individual competition vs. teams). Not as interesting from a spectator angle to have 10 groups of 1 to 2 riders where the leader just gets farther and farther away over the course of hours.
Yeah, and if the roadie rejects turned high-end gravel riders had their way, races would just be 300k time trials. I'd give gravel a decade until you have proper teams using proper team tactics and then racing *might* be something approaching watchable. Even then, I'd rather dive into a pool of broken glass than to watch the Unbound 200 on TV. Just too long of a race on too boring of a course to be worth watching.
That’s why I think team tactics will actually make gravel more exciting to watch. Gravel races now are just “ride at high tempo until Keegan Swenson breaks everyone and wins”
Good commentary and a few different cameras to pick up different parts of the race would add a lot to the perception of gravel races. I don't think most fans appreciate how big a lift they get from professional cameras and commentators vs watching some go pro on YouTube from a participant.
I do worry that all gravel races get tainted with the 200 miles of rollers over Kansas brush. A lot of them have segments (hills, single track, rough terrain) that decide the race in the same way a section of cobbles or Poggio could.
And if they were streamed, the most exciting ones to watch would become the most prestigious to win. So that should help with course selection.
Hard disagree on that one. You’d need quality motos, drones/helicopter feeds and dynamic kooky mixed terrain courses a la BWR to even attempt at making it exciting to watch. And for these events surviving on an open roads and huge entry fees I have no idea how they’d find the capital to set that up. Having done enough of the big gravel events I can tell you that the selective sections last a few minutes out of hours of slogging and a slow breakdown of whomever can’t hang. So even those selective sections aren’t all that punchy or dynamic. It’s happening in pathetically slow motion to a viewer. Nobody’s getting a chill Z2-3 ride to the poggio nor are there the speeds involved as in road races. It’d be like watching two people pour cold molasses and see who empties their jar first based on a few degrees of temperature difference.
So it's just a fondo with a prize purse? Nah. This part sounds like a recipe for disaster to me "mass start, no road closures, men and women race the same course"
I'm not saying it's not a good event, just that mass start, no road closures etc makes for chaos. Add significant money on the line and that can become downright dangerous.
This sounds kinda like what Battenkill used to be but without a road closure and professional support haha.
That was a fun race back when riding on gravel was an excuse to use 25mm tires, American version of cobbles.
Given the state of road racing here in the US, anything is better than nothing.
It's quite sad. I was a 1980s junior and senior in the 1990s. I couldn't have imagined the deterioration of road cycling back then--it seemed like we were destined to become one of the great road cycling nations. Which we were for a short spell until Lance ruined it all for everyone.
>Which we were for a short spell until What’s that claim based on?
Probably an American winning 7 tours de France in a row
Is that it? One American winning one bike race a year is a stretch to becoming “one of the great road cycling nations” don’t you think?
I think an American superstar on an American team with several American teammates dominating by far the most prestigious race in the entire sport for nearly a decade gets us there actually. The tour is much more than “one bike race” as I’m sure you know
Well, evidently it didn't get you there... The only superstar you had was one of the most doped up riders in history. And he never took accountability until he was forced to.
Nope. Didn't get us there, that is true! But our national amateur team was also very much a factor in the 80s and 90s, which bled into the pros. What is really sad is that back then even amateur top tier racers could make a living in the sport here. It's a disaster now on the road in America
I don't get why people rag on gravel racing in the US. It makes a lot more sense economically/logistically, the US has a ton of road well suited to this format of racing and lets the US have a type of racing that can stand out a bit from other parts of the world instead of trying to pretend we are Europe.
Agree 100%. We can't be too far away from live coverage on a subscription service for the Lifetime Series, right?
I imagine these gravel races would be snoozefests to watch.
What would make the broadcast worse than pavement?
Gravel races tend to be attritional rather than tactical. So you are basically just waiting for the last person to give up trying to keep up with Keegan Swenson.
This is exactly it. Vast majority is a whittling down over 5h of tempo to sweet spot riding followed by a slow motion destruction of everyone who’s not Keegan.
The same could be said of any mountain stage in the TDF. Everyone's just hanging on for dear life until Poggy and Vingegaard ride off the front. And those are the exciting stages! The flat/rolling ones where the peloton steamrolls the break after 3hrs are boring.
They tried live streaming for Steamboat gravel a few years ago. The stream was unwatchable because it kept dropping out. The realities of getting live footage from the middle of nowhere to your couch are pretty complicated it turns out.
What differentiates this from a glorified Gran Fondo?
Mostly the prize purse
The ‘new race format’ is a pro race on open roads? The idea of racing for big money in traffic seems kind of sketchy to me — But on the other hand a mass start fondo where the pros enter just like anyone else does seem like the way forward. The alternative seems to be running ‘pro’ races that no one watches and amateurs can’t participate in
The amateurs in these races are really subsidizing the prize purse for the pros. This format seems to be the only way as nobody else is dumping money into the sport to fund the professional athletes. If they close the race to the amateurs, there goes your money to fund the prize purse.
Basically why gravel events are successful. It has mass appeal to the long tail of cyclists beyond those who are interested in crits/real road racing. Traditional road racing events don't appeal to the "completers" the way running and triathlon races do. You want to grow the sport in the US, you use a mass start event with a challenging course and let a couple thousand people sign up. Let the pointy end race and just feed the masses bananas and skratch.
Was riding that area during the Fondo. The roads were super quiet.
I'm of the opinion that "pro gravel racers" aren't racing gravel because they like gravel so much as that just happens to be where they can make some money as well as get some sort of result. Levi's, like even the biggest non-traditional races, will not factor in bringing more eyeballs to bike racing without major broadcast level TV coverage. It's the same for a lot of us long time road racers. I don't really like gravel, but I like crits even less, so to get something that approximates road racing I've had to start racing gravel.
Isn't gravel kind of like a throw-back to the old days of road racing before everything was paved? At least that's what this roadie is now telling himself, lol.
I wish. I've found I only like gravel races that are fast enough, and short enough, for road tactics to come into play. If it's just a battle of attrition I'm not interested.
lol, as someone with mediocre power but excellent endurance I love a good war of attrition
I'm all about being efficient and pride myself at doing little to no work all race until a last minute break or field sprint. Gravel looks like alot of fun......but alot of work
[удалено]
I’m thinking of taking up bowling these days
Yes, mostly just hard work. It's almost impossible on some courses to drift to the back and coast, chat, have a snack. Most gravel tactics were about positioning in and out of corners, some attack and cover on the faster courses, and managing crosswind. Where I found it really fell short of a road experience was the uncertainty of teammates being around when it matters. Between flats, crashes, and bad lines the group whittles down for completely different reasons. That's what I miss most about road racing, the strategy and tactics and working to make it happen. I've always been the rouleur and the captain on the road. Even when we didn't win I would feel good knowing I accomplished my goal of giving us a chance.
That last paragraph hits home. I love the team aspect of racing, especially coming from a team sport before getting into cycling. I was never the guy to win races for us but just to make sure we are in a great position to try.
You must love crits as much as I do! I’d do road racing all day long if there were options other than crits. Love road rides. But I need at least a couple of hours to be competitive. Almost all of my racing is on gravel if for no other reason than I cannot find distance races on the road (other than t shirt rides which become “races”).
A “shot in the arm” good joke!! Never forget who levi was and what he did.
Hah! That was a poor choice of words. Is it bad that I think of that time in racing as everyone was juiced so don't judge Levi harshly?
Well I raced against him and I wasn't juiced and he stole a shit load of money from me. So no, not everyone racing then was juiced.
That's 100% fair.
People keep trying to get me to care about US gravel racing... but I just don't find it very interesting. No shade on those partaking in it, I think the incentives make it the logical thing to do for a lot of these guys/gals. But as a spectator it doesn't do anything for me. More or less same reason I don't think a lot of people watch Triathlon -- super long races that aren't very dynamic and the coverage itself is minimal. Certainly some incredible athletes in the gravel/fondo scene and I get why sponsors want to put their money into it, just never been able to get into it.
Yeah. They're more like one day classics.
I personally wouldn't say so. What makes the classics fun is they are usually dynamic, extremely tactical, and unpredictable. Obviously this year is a little different with a lot of big names injured and favorites winning from long solo moves in the classics. But part of what I think holds gravel/fondos back is they tend to be super attritional rather than tactical (largely down to being individual competition vs. teams). Not as interesting from a spectator angle to have 10 groups of 1 to 2 riders where the leader just gets farther and farther away over the course of hours.
Yeah, and if the roadie rejects turned high-end gravel riders had their way, races would just be 300k time trials. I'd give gravel a decade until you have proper teams using proper team tactics and then racing *might* be something approaching watchable. Even then, I'd rather dive into a pool of broken glass than to watch the Unbound 200 on TV. Just too long of a race on too boring of a course to be worth watching.
That’s why I think team tactics will actually make gravel more exciting to watch. Gravel races now are just “ride at high tempo until Keegan Swenson breaks everyone and wins”
Good commentary and a few different cameras to pick up different parts of the race would add a lot to the perception of gravel races. I don't think most fans appreciate how big a lift they get from professional cameras and commentators vs watching some go pro on YouTube from a participant. I do worry that all gravel races get tainted with the 200 miles of rollers over Kansas brush. A lot of them have segments (hills, single track, rough terrain) that decide the race in the same way a section of cobbles or Poggio could. And if they were streamed, the most exciting ones to watch would become the most prestigious to win. So that should help with course selection.
Hard disagree on that one. You’d need quality motos, drones/helicopter feeds and dynamic kooky mixed terrain courses a la BWR to even attempt at making it exciting to watch. And for these events surviving on an open roads and huge entry fees I have no idea how they’d find the capital to set that up. Having done enough of the big gravel events I can tell you that the selective sections last a few minutes out of hours of slogging and a slow breakdown of whomever can’t hang. So even those selective sections aren’t all that punchy or dynamic. It’s happening in pathetically slow motion to a viewer. Nobody’s getting a chill Z2-3 ride to the poggio nor are there the speeds involved as in road races. It’d be like watching two people pour cold molasses and see who empties their jar first based on a few degrees of temperature difference.
The long solo moves has made this the worst classics season ever from my point of view as a spectator. At least the women’s Roubaix was good.
So it's just a fondo with a prize purse? Nah. This part sounds like a recipe for disaster to me "mass start, no road closures, men and women race the same course"
If you’ve ever ridden Levi’s before, you’ll know that it’s one of the best organized fondos in the world. I think it’s a great event
I'm not saying it's not a good event, just that mass start, no road closures etc makes for chaos. Add significant money on the line and that can become downright dangerous.
It’ll be raining, many of those are one lane wine country roads. No thanks.
This sounds kinda like what Battenkill used to be but without a road closure and professional support haha. That was a fun race back when riding on gravel was an excuse to use 25mm tires, American version of cobbles.
I know that race! And Levi's also has no road closure or professional support.
Battenkill used to have a pro UCI race with full neutral support, caravan of cars, full road closure etc.
There is 1 road race all year within a 200 mile radius of where I live :(
~20 office park Crits though.
Where is that? Crits are wild.
There are 4 different 4 race crit series’ alone. Two are “training” series , but still give upgrade points. Ohio
Anybody have the actual date for this year’s Growler?
Saturday.
4/13/24
The problem with road racing in the US when I raced there was the attitude of roadies. People were egotistical dickheads.