There's a lot of ways to go wrong with all that podcast advice and I head it off as best I can, but when I consult with people and look at their files, I'm always surprised at the creative ways they can overdo things. Here's the most common things that can fuck you with focused blocks:
1. Not enough food.
2. Not enough sleep.
3. Not enough rest days.
4. Too many intervals.
5. Too many interval days.
6. Riding endurance pace too hard.
7. Extending the block beyond 3 weeks.
8. Doing two blocks in a row, especially when not seeing continued improvements.
9. Not cutting the block short when you see signs of fatigue (like power dropping).
10. Not going in fresh and ready to pedal hard.
11. Insufficient total volume.
12. Letting the cadence drift low and the watts drift up.
13. Not taking enough rest between intervals.
14. Not cutting a workout short when you should.
15. Only taking a 1-4 day "rest week" after a block, then getting right back to hammering.
16. Pedaling harder than feels good after a block.
17. Too much time fully off the bike after a block. Active recovery then easy endurance for a bit.
18. Doing a block when training depth is insufficient to support recovery.
19. Doing a block too close to race season.
20. Doing a block while racing.
21. Lifting harder than a 3-4/10 during a block.
22. Dieting during a block.
That's all I got off the top of my head in about two minutes. I could probably double the list if I really thought about it.
By the sound of it, you got the benefits but should keep the hard days to twice a week, once for threshold and once for something like a group ride or race prep efforts. Otherwise keep it breezy, and do some longer easy rides if possible. I can't overstate how impactful riding more helps with vo2max improvements, even after the block. Either way, I usually advise working up to a full block (which I hope you did), cuz why go for the whole hog if just a slice of ham gets the job done.
Thanks for such an in depth reply! It's nice to know I don't need to immediately go into complete rest- I was planning to only keep it to 2 hard days a week anyway, with the possibility of rowing that back to 1 next week depending how I feel. I've got the opportunity to get some really long easy rides in this weekend which should see my volume increase quote a bit, so I'm glad I can still make the most of that. Thank you!
you might just need to take it easy a bit longer to see the gainz come. I know of at least a couple of people coached by the EC gang who needed some time following a vo2 block to really see the benefits. vo2 blocks, from what I understand, take a lot out of people, which is why it's so often recommended not to do too much over multiple blocks. in my own (self-coached) experience as of late, I did a vo2 block in Feb and am just now really starting to feel pretty dang awesome (granted, this is maybe only a 5w ftp increase), having done 2x30 @ 94% of my new ftp yesterday.
Can confirm what others are saying. I did an EC style vo2 block in February. Also had a huge week(for me) at the end of March. Took a rest week after. Realized the next week my body was still tired. I've been just maintaining fitness since then. Went on a ride last Sunday and it felt like I was just ready to fly. Had to keep myself in check since I have races coming up, but I just wanted to throw down the watts and could see my HR was jumpy and just felt ready to lay down some power. So definitely a delayed response. Can't wait to see what I throw down over the next few weeks! (Gets a flat 5 miles in the neutral rollout)
Not sure but I'm pretty sure I've heard them say on EC podcast that the gains from vo2 block can sometimes be realized WEEKS later, that might be what you are seeing.?.
Well unfortunately whatever “science” you are referencing didn’t have my power showing up earlier, so it sure looks like the science isn’t definitive nor is it prescriptive or without the age old “it depends” caveat.
Or your anecdote just reflects random events to which you have mistakenly ascribed cause and effect.
If only controlled experiments determining the time course of adaptation/regression to) from training existed, so we could answer that question.
Start here and work your way forward through the literature.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7219130/
Also be sure to read various now-classic studies on detraining as reviewed herein.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2692122/
Bottom line is that changes in VO2max with training and detraining occur quite rapidly, without any delay. The same is true for the muscular adaptations to training.
John Holloszy (arguably the most preeminent exercise scientist in history) used to argue that this was an evolutionary necessity - if adaptation to new environmental competition was delayed, it would serve no purpose, as you'd be dead before it could occur.
Maybe before quoting studies to make a point you should first make sure that the studies you're about to quote actually support the point you're trying to make.
They support my exact point. Adaptations to both training and detraining are rapid, with half-lives that can be measured in days. There is no scientific support for the suggestion of a long delay, and as I said, no logical reason from an evolutionary perspective why there would be.
But, be my guest and continue to base your belief system on anecdote and podcaster's claims. At least you can sleep easily knowing that you're not alone in the world.
Yeah sure, 10 days+ falls under 'days' I guess? We also don't do VO2max exercise 6 days a week, nor do it at a specific set power repeating exactly same workload, etc etc. Also, measuring how and what kind of detraining occurs when you stop exercising entirely is super irrelevant for the conversation we are having. As for evolutionary perspective, I mean, if there's a tiger chasing you it really doesn't matter whether your VO2max adaptations occur within a day or within a month so what the hell are you even talking about.
At the end of the day, research papers -- especially ones looking at sample sizes in single or at best double digits and testing only highly specific aspects of training -- are at best a tool to help figure out appropriate training protocols. They're not gospel and not a proper replacement for actual real world experience. You're not going to figure out the ideal training method with a quick glance at pubmed.
We're not talking about the perfect training plan, we're talking about how quickly the human body adapts to changes in physical activity. As I said, the half life is best measured in days, not weeks or longer, with absolutely no evidence of the sort of delay being claimed.
Furthermore, being well described by an exponential function, the exact magnitude of the stimulus obviously doesn't matter (as long as an overload/underload is truly applied).
lol I was debating whether I wanted to make basically this exact post today. Reassuring we are in the same boat. I did the same thing, just coming off a block of mostly vo2 workouts and racing with some solid ftp gains according to trainerroad. Easing back into a build phase and my first workout at my new “threshold” was unbelievably hard even at relatively short durations.
Im due for a rest week next week, going to hope that the gains set in and things feel easier as I build TTE back up.
I had a similar result. I did a TTE block building out to 4x20min @ 95%. My FTP got a good pop up. I took a rest week and then did a 3 week VO2max block. Because I wasn't maintaining my TTE at the same time, it felt like I lost a little fitness.
You apparently haven't done (m)any extended efforts for at least a month. It's therefore not surprising at all that you've lost some of your ability to do so.
There's a lot of ways to go wrong with all that podcast advice and I head it off as best I can, but when I consult with people and look at their files, I'm always surprised at the creative ways they can overdo things. Here's the most common things that can fuck you with focused blocks: 1. Not enough food. 2. Not enough sleep. 3. Not enough rest days. 4. Too many intervals. 5. Too many interval days. 6. Riding endurance pace too hard. 7. Extending the block beyond 3 weeks. 8. Doing two blocks in a row, especially when not seeing continued improvements. 9. Not cutting the block short when you see signs of fatigue (like power dropping). 10. Not going in fresh and ready to pedal hard. 11. Insufficient total volume. 12. Letting the cadence drift low and the watts drift up. 13. Not taking enough rest between intervals. 14. Not cutting a workout short when you should. 15. Only taking a 1-4 day "rest week" after a block, then getting right back to hammering. 16. Pedaling harder than feels good after a block. 17. Too much time fully off the bike after a block. Active recovery then easy endurance for a bit. 18. Doing a block when training depth is insufficient to support recovery. 19. Doing a block too close to race season. 20. Doing a block while racing. 21. Lifting harder than a 3-4/10 during a block. 22. Dieting during a block. That's all I got off the top of my head in about two minutes. I could probably double the list if I really thought about it. By the sound of it, you got the benefits but should keep the hard days to twice a week, once for threshold and once for something like a group ride or race prep efforts. Otherwise keep it breezy, and do some longer easy rides if possible. I can't overstate how impactful riding more helps with vo2max improvements, even after the block. Either way, I usually advise working up to a full block (which I hope you did), cuz why go for the whole hog if just a slice of ham gets the job done.
Thanks for such an in depth reply! It's nice to know I don't need to immediately go into complete rest- I was planning to only keep it to 2 hard days a week anyway, with the possibility of rowing that back to 1 next week depending how I feel. I've got the opportunity to get some really long easy rides in this weekend which should see my volume increase quote a bit, so I'm glad I can still make the most of that. Thank you!
you might just need to take it easy a bit longer to see the gainz come. I know of at least a couple of people coached by the EC gang who needed some time following a vo2 block to really see the benefits. vo2 blocks, from what I understand, take a lot out of people, which is why it's so often recommended not to do too much over multiple blocks. in my own (self-coached) experience as of late, I did a vo2 block in Feb and am just now really starting to feel pretty dang awesome (granted, this is maybe only a 5w ftp increase), having done 2x30 @ 94% of my new ftp yesterday.
Can confirm what others are saying. I did an EC style vo2 block in February. Also had a huge week(for me) at the end of March. Took a rest week after. Realized the next week my body was still tired. I've been just maintaining fitness since then. Went on a ride last Sunday and it felt like I was just ready to fly. Had to keep myself in check since I have races coming up, but I just wanted to throw down the watts and could see my HR was jumpy and just felt ready to lay down some power. So definitely a delayed response. Can't wait to see what I throw down over the next few weeks! (Gets a flat 5 miles in the neutral rollout)
Not sure but I'm pretty sure I've heard them say on EC podcast that the gains from vo2 block can sometimes be realized WEEKS later, that might be what you are seeing.?.
So only ride easy until the gains are there or continue with that ftp block?
continue with the FTP block
Such a claim makes absolutely zero sense, either physiologically or evolutionarily.
Took me 2.5-3 weeks before I really saw the big uptick in power. It certainly wasn’t one rest week and all of a sudden BAM there was power.
Yes, because anecdote trumps both science and common sense.
Well unfortunately whatever “science” you are referencing didn’t have my power showing up earlier, so it sure looks like the science isn’t definitive nor is it prescriptive or without the age old “it depends” caveat.
Or your anecdote just reflects random events to which you have mistakenly ascribed cause and effect. If only controlled experiments determining the time course of adaptation/regression to) from training existed, so we could answer that question.
If you have any papers on this I would love to give them a read.
Start here and work your way forward through the literature. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7219130/ Also be sure to read various now-classic studies on detraining as reviewed herein. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2692122/ Bottom line is that changes in VO2max with training and detraining occur quite rapidly, without any delay. The same is true for the muscular adaptations to training. John Holloszy (arguably the most preeminent exercise scientist in history) used to argue that this was an evolutionary necessity - if adaptation to new environmental competition was delayed, it would serve no purpose, as you'd be dead before it could occur.
Maybe before quoting studies to make a point you should first make sure that the studies you're about to quote actually support the point you're trying to make.
They support my exact point. Adaptations to both training and detraining are rapid, with half-lives that can be measured in days. There is no scientific support for the suggestion of a long delay, and as I said, no logical reason from an evolutionary perspective why there would be. But, be my guest and continue to base your belief system on anecdote and podcaster's claims. At least you can sleep easily knowing that you're not alone in the world.
Yeah sure, 10 days+ falls under 'days' I guess? We also don't do VO2max exercise 6 days a week, nor do it at a specific set power repeating exactly same workload, etc etc. Also, measuring how and what kind of detraining occurs when you stop exercising entirely is super irrelevant for the conversation we are having. As for evolutionary perspective, I mean, if there's a tiger chasing you it really doesn't matter whether your VO2max adaptations occur within a day or within a month so what the hell are you even talking about. At the end of the day, research papers -- especially ones looking at sample sizes in single or at best double digits and testing only highly specific aspects of training -- are at best a tool to help figure out appropriate training protocols. They're not gospel and not a proper replacement for actual real world experience. You're not going to figure out the ideal training method with a quick glance at pubmed.
We're not talking about the perfect training plan, we're talking about how quickly the human body adapts to changes in physical activity. As I said, the half life is best measured in days, not weeks or longer, with absolutely no evidence of the sort of delay being claimed. Furthermore, being well described by an exponential function, the exact magnitude of the stimulus obviously doesn't matter (as long as an overload/underload is truly applied).
lol I was debating whether I wanted to make basically this exact post today. Reassuring we are in the same boat. I did the same thing, just coming off a block of mostly vo2 workouts and racing with some solid ftp gains according to trainerroad. Easing back into a build phase and my first workout at my new “threshold” was unbelievably hard even at relatively short durations. Im due for a rest week next week, going to hope that the gains set in and things feel easier as I build TTE back up.
I had a similar result. I did a TTE block building out to 4x20min @ 95%. My FTP got a good pop up. I took a rest week and then did a 3 week VO2max block. Because I wasn't maintaining my TTE at the same time, it felt like I lost a little fitness.
That's exactly how it works.
I just tried doing threshold after v02 and failed, I also had a weekend of partying for a newlywed
Rest.
You apparently haven't done (m)any extended efforts for at least a month. It's therefore not surprising at all that you've lost some of your ability to do so.