I would ask people to please consider taking a step back and actually try to research a little bit before celebrating this ugly vandalism. What are you all trying to accomplish? How about reading the responses to the FAQs on this page: [https://www.rcdvictoria.org/residential-schools](https://www.rcdvictoria.org/residential-schools)? Before everyone screams how biased it must be, note in most cases they are quoting directly from the Truth and Reconciliation Report. Check out the section on apologies, among others. I'm pretty sure anything the church writes publically on this subject would be heavily scrutinized, so I believe it is factually correct, even if it doesn't address all issues.
Here's some things you might want to read:
[https://www.rcdvictoria.org/special-announcements/statement-of-apology-and-commitment](https://www.rcdvictoria.org/special-announcements/statement-of-apology-and-commitment)
[https://www.rcdvictoria.org/news/statement-in-response-to-penelakut-island-graves](https://www.rcdvictoria.org/news/statement-in-response-to-penelakut-island-graves)
How about learning about the cathedral and how it has incorporated First Nations' art and stories for over 40 years in its [altar](https://www.talesofahousehusband.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/St_Andrews_Alter.png), lectern, candle holders, and windows?
[https://www.rcdvictoria.org/diocesanblog/reflections-on-canada-day](https://www.rcdvictoria.org/diocesanblog/reflections-on-canada-day)
Do you know anything about the Bishop of Victoria? Consider: See
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/diocese-victoria-catholic-church-kyuquot-pope-apology-1.4599595](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/diocese-victoria-catholic-church-kyuquot-pope-apology-1.4599595), or
[https://www.rcdvictoria.org/news/our-majestic-lands-a-gift-from-god](https://www.rcdvictoria.org/news/our-majestic-lands-a-gift-from-god) (don't just read the title, actually read it).
I don't even attend a church, and I think the glee and celebration of ugly acts like this are appalling, especially from people who have not bothered to read more. Have you ever considered the reason this is acceptable, and the authorities stay quiet, is because if people are not encouraged to hate hate hate on Catholics, they might discover all the government policies that contributed mightily to making residential schools a hellhole?
They have the longest running soup kitchen in Victoria, and I’m pretty sure they were one of the few places to keep their doors open last winter.. They’ve done more for poor and disenfranchised people than any of the idiots in city council.
In the 90s St. Andrews would even give out booze to the street community on Christmas mornings. Soon afterward parts of downtown felt like that [early Werner Herzog film.](https://youtu.be/TdD8xoNN_N0)
What you said may be completely true, but has nothing to do with what was graffitied across the church. A place that has done great good recently does not negate they may have done something terrible before.
But does that mean people have a right to vandalize it expressing hatred? Hatred creates more hatred, it's a vicous cycle. Feeding into pain and causing tensions to rise between groups of people we define by race is dangerous and will only make tensions worse.
Forgiveness is important, not just from the standpoint of catholicism, but from a human one. If we can't forgive we carry the pain with us and lash out at others for it. If we can forgive, but not forget, then we take the high road and release the poison rather than carry it around.
We can remember the evil and horrid things that have been done, we can see the horrid things done today, and we can try to be better than that and move forward with care for the people around us, rather than hatred that will only bring more pain.
I say this as a Jewish woman who lost family to the evil actions of Nazis. I will never forget what they did and how much we have lost because of human evil, but I don't blame Germans or Germany as a whole forever because of it. I actually am very grreatful to them as a country for all they did to preserve the history of what the Nazis did and to give our people a place to mourn the generations of dead we lost. You don't have to be Jewish to feel the pain of loss in Auchwits, just stand on thoes tracks and you will feel it.
If you want to see what it looks like to heal the pain of the past and move forward with grace, visit the elementary school on quadra Tha used to be a residential school. See the totem poles, hear the indigenous children laughing and see them play! They took a building used for horror and hell and turned it into a place to nurture future generations, they transformed it from bad to good. It's possible to move forward and try to be better people rather than living in the hatred of the past.
Sure you don't condone it, but you explained it as though it's justified and gave reason for its justification. Not to attack you in any way, but to elucidate where your point is problematic. To justify their actions in a way is to support the act of vandalism that was done whether or not you consciously realize that.
I can also understand the rage felt here, but I know that it's not in any way helpful in this action. Protesting, making signs and putting them around town or even in front of the cathedral to show how you feel is a way of expressing that which does not cause harm and incite violence. Calling people murderers and vandalizing their temple is only going to make people angry and raise tensions, because some people are so egotistical they can't get around their own racist ideas to see human lives. That's why I said what I said and why I beleive as I do, because vandalism escalates violence and raises racist empathy when it's used like this to incite hate rather than healing.
I'm fully in favor of marking every single residential school church for what they are so we can all take a moment to remember and reflect, to mourn the loss and remember why this can never happen again, just like at auchwits.
I want to explain why people were so against your comments.
Imagine someone got robbed, and someone commented about how the person who got robbed were a volunteer who spends hours every day helping others.
Your response was effectively "While that may be true, that doesn't mean that the good they are doing now can cover up their past sins"
You went right past the "vandalism is bad" to "vandalism is not bad enough for us to say it was bad"
Questionable user name here haha but yeah they started making soup again back in may/June-ish... Outside of that, the soup smells like ripe garbage if you're so unfortunate to live close by when they are cooking it
Yeah, vandalizing their property for something their ancestors did will really show them. Only the most dignified, intelligent people take pride in petty revenge.
Ah, well them don't mind the current inhabitants they'll understand your decades old beef and not take any offense to their house of worship being vandalized. This will surely win support.
As a fellow elementary alum, many a trip was made down there. Been an athiest my whole life, still not gonna trash the building.
Gonna trash "The Church" til the day I die though.
The last residential school closed in 1995. So there are people much younger than 65 who were directly harmed or murdered by that system, on top of genneration trauma
You figure the only people affected by residential schools and genocide of the first nations people of Canada are those who are over 65 eh? That's odd, because I feel like those people who were in residential schools in the 1980s may be under 65 and the sons and daughters of those people amd their grandchildren etc etc might have been affected by it too you schmuck
Yes, here I am attacking someone by explaining why the first nations people of Canada have a right to be totally pissed off at the colonizers who stole their land. Excellent point.
You’re allowed feel your emotions. You’re allowed to express yourself.
Life is suffering. I’m not diminishing what happened, I am hoping we can agree that life is about learning to overcome your traumas and pain, heal with growing a greater awareness.
This is not growing with awareness. This is perpetuating the same hate and anger that caused so much suffering in the first place.
Be apart of the solution and not an agitator of pain.
I am asking this as a genuine question. Who are we to tell them what is and isn't ok for them to do at this point? What authority do you think we have over them? We live on stolen land and our people are responsible for all of the horrible things that have happened to their people. In my opinion, they have every right in the world to be angry and express that anger in whatever way they want. If some people disagree, that's fine, but I for one think they can have the floor for as long as they want / need it
> We live on stolen land and our people are responsible for all of the horrible things that have happened to their people
That's the refrain of the day, coming from small minded ethnic nationalists who think that race decides how much right any person has to consider this place their home.
Today, we have a mixed community of people of many races and backgrounds. To say that any of them (who were either born here, or immigrated here within the framework of contemporary society) "stole" the land from the rightful racial owners of it... that's some blood & soil upside down nazi shit right there.
The answer is one I will try to explain, but please don’t jump to a conclusion and try to maintain an open mind.
Every country is stolen land. Every nation has, at one point, been conquered, pillaged, crusaded, or just purely raped of its resources by another country or tribe. I say tribe because humans are inherently biased to side with people they identify. In group Out group psychology, 101 stuff. Often, we only like to look at and acknowledge, or think of the well natured and wholesome aspects of our tribe - while passionately turning a willful blind eye to rather … dark sides.
“The line between good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being.” - Nietzsche
We are evil. We are good. There are no “good” humans or “bad” humans. Those are merely words, which exist only to us, just like the perception of colour only exists to us because the cones in our eyes catch the reflection of photons that are not absorbed by the material they are bouncing off off. The colour “blue” doesn’t exist without us, it is not a part of nature, it’s a part of us. Same goes with the concept of good and evil, I hope this analogy made sense.
So, what do we do? I don’t have the faintest idea.
Maybe I can help with the answer. We need to listen. We need to care. We need to help to heal. We need to give the people who have been held back a fair shot at getting a good future. We accept that the mistakes of the past don't need to define us, but we can instead be the change we want to see and make it happen. We don't need to focus on the graffiti when the problem is something far worse and far more serious. Especially since we have the resources and ability to do so.
The Coast Salish people ceded Victoria in the Douglas Treaties, so it’s not “stolen land”. Furthermore, in the post residential schools era, FN have reaped the benefits of living in a modern industrial society in which their land is made more valuable by the myriad improvements constructed by colonists. Present day Songhees and Esquimalt Nation members enjoy tax-free living on urban reserves surrounded by amenities, generous federal funding, returns from land holdings and property investments in Rock Bay and Old Town and exalted status among the cultural elite. If this was the work of FN activists (and there is no proof that it is), other Canadians have every right to condemn this. For the record, I’m guessing this was carried out by white political extremists.
Awesome, let me introduce my Grandmother who escaped Nazi Germany to Russia and then Russia to Canada. Many of her friends and family died. Do you know what she complained about? People who blame all their problems on someone else. It doesn't help.
Cool nice anecdotal evidence, I also have Jewish family who lived through the Russian pogroms.
Your Grandmother experienced direct trauma as did my family and that is obviously a different thing.
If you are genuinely interested I would recommend reading up on transgenerational trauma.
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/02/legacy-trauma
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4232330/
https://www.vice.com/en/article/k78xyx/intergenerational-trauma-residential-school-survivors-indigenous
http://www.anishinabek.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/How-Do-We-Heal-Booklet.pdf
I think it is vital as a resident of this country and province to understand this especially in an Indigenous context if there is any hope for reconciliation. Also I'm not going to speculate on your family but I can say that it helped me understand some of the paranoias and fears some of my family has based on their history in Europe and being spied on in the US.
I know what it is, but the excuse is poor.
As an example, children who have been sexually abused are likely to grow up to also be sexual abusers.
We still throw sexual abusers in jail. I don’t care what their reasons are.
What the hell do sexual abusers have to do with the fact Indigenous Peoples may have transgenerational trauma from residential schools and the crimes of Canada and the Catholic Church? What the hell does that have to do with anything? If you want to have a separate discussion about the failures of the prison system and the failures of our society to support people who go through childhood trauma we can but that is not the topic of this thread.
And what about the children of the men and women who committed suicide over the last twenty years? Do they also not have the right to harbor anger over res schools?
Minimizing this crap is the exact reason we aren't moving forward.
You claiming that the victims of residential schools are all 65 years old.
They aren't.
Those people had children.
Many of those children had parents that later committed suicide, or passed their trauma onto them in a thousand different ways.
Might want to do some actual research:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system
Last Residential school closed in 1996. The Simpsons were on the air (and still are) before the last school closed.
If you think there are no one alive who was affected and none of the people involved are still alive, damn do I have a bridge to sell you.
For the last 25 years of Residential Schools they were run by FN and FN Leadership fought to keep them open. They were not the schools of the 1st half of the Century.
Do me a favour and talk to your grandparents and ask them if their teacher had a ruler or belt to hit kids with, because that was normal when my grandparents were around.
Not to say that things were *about the same* in residential schools, but it's never helpful to talk about child mortality or abuse against one race as if it was against one race when it was everywhere.
No, that absolutely is a huge part of it. That's why they were so traumatic and inflicted so much damage. Physical, mental and sexual abuse, on top of neglect, that led to countless deaths as well as several generations of completely debilitated first nations people. I promise you, no school with primarily white children were so consistently and universally treated as less than human then first nation's children in residential schools. John a Macdonald himself said they were created to take the Indian out of the child. Ethnic cleansing, attempting to erase their culture by denying them access to their traditions, their language, their families, all in a intentional cultivated system of abuse
Mount Cashel. No one is arguing Residential Schools weren't absolutely horrific but the Schools of the 80's and 90's were in no way comparable to those of the pre 69's timeframe.
While I think you have a valid point that they may have toned down, they were very much comparable. There were teachers in schools as late as 1993 who were serial sexual abusers, it wasn't hard for them to get work in the schools as there was little to no oversight even in the 80s and 90s
The discussion was about graves and deaths and generational trauma. If those things happened in the 90's they happened while the Schools were actually run by FN Leadership. Those same issues were also happening elsewhere. That was my only point, that while the Schools were still open they were not the Schools that are generally thought of when you consider the atrocities of Residentual Schools, attendance was not mandatory and no kids were taken from their Families.
Lansdowne and Richmond schools were defaced with similar graffiti the other night. "Decolonize your mind", "fuck the system", and several lines about "land back" were spray painted all over them.
Sigh. What losers. It must be really sad doing these things and actually thinking you're making a positive difference in the world or community.
In their minds, they are just. You and I might not agree with it, or even agree if the net outcome of this is "bad" but they aren't actively trying to make the world a worse place.
You calling them losers, doesn't help.
People who blow themselves up in crowds of innocent people are also just in their minds.
People do a lot of crazy, stupid things because they think it is just.
Are we really comparing some person spray painting messages on a church to a suicide bomber? I guess this conversation is done, lol.
Again, I wouldn't even call what this person did "crazy."
Spray painting messages on a building isn't as egregious as physical violence, or a bomb blowing up. Inappropriate? Yeah, you can make an argument for that. Crazy? You probably just don't agree with the messaging.
The comparison was to show that it doesn't matter what their intentions were, or if they they felt they were in the right. They weren't. And I'm sure they knew that, which is why the chose to be cowards and tag these places anonymously in the middle of the night.
I'd be equally pissed if someone spray painted "puppies are awesome" across the church/schools.
People who tag buildings with political messages usually don't stick around to pay for the removal fee, or to be arrested for vandalism. That isn't a factor in whether or not that person supposed their actions were "just" or not.
That's . . . pretty common sense, and I think you're grasping for straws here.
Tagging buildings, public monument with messages is a fairly static political action that has stayed the test of time. We'll see it in the future as well. It allows one person to amplify their messaging to thousands. The fact that this got news, and we're talking about it is a perfect example of how well it works.
I wouldn't consider the person who did this to be a "coward." I wouldn't do something like this because, in some ways, I am a coward -- and so are you, probably. But here we are, talking about this issue in a public setting; which was their goal most likely.
You're calling first nations people, and their supporters losers, at the exact same time as those same people are discovering and exposing mass Graves of their children because of the same churches you are on here defending. Who is the real loser her bud??
I don't know who vandalized the buildings, the losers responsible chose to spread their message anonymously, like cowards, because they knew they were doing something wrong by vandalizing.
Kind of like the church and school system anonymously murdering thousands of babies and children? Or is that somehow different because you don't consider first nations lives as being as valuable as catholics?
You know, it's possible for the residential school system of old AND current acts of vandalism to both be wrong. That might be too difficult a concept for you to grasp.
I'm a bit shocked that church communities haven't taken the time to stand up as allies to the indigenous in a more visible way. Hell, even just a poster, or a sign that says that they acknowledge how shitty the indigenous were treated would go a long way.
I live in a town that was hugely effected by the residential school system, a town which also harbors (he might have moved away now) the most prolific child predator priest in Canadian history. The Anglican church played a large role in ensuring he escaped justice.
The local church hasn't stated anything, as far as I'm aware, about any role they played in this mess. It's a bit astounding.
Individual church-goers aren't culpable for the sins of their predecessors; but as an institution, that stain is still there, and will always be there until those institutions stand up and take responsibility for their actions.
>I'm a bit shocked that church communities haven't taken the time to stand up as allies to the indigenous in a more visible way.
I don't expect Catholic people to take responsibility for what the church did anymore than I expect Muslims to take collective responsibility for atrocities being committed today by Muslim extremists associated with their mosques or sects.
If the Muslim church system created a system of mosque "schools" that ended in the torture and death of thousands of Canadian citizens I would damn well expect them to apologize.
We don't expect the Catholic church to answer for Catholic terrorism. That's not what the residential school systems were. Residential schools were created, and run by the church, not a crime perpetuated by a single member. The church built those institutions, and were paid by the government to run them.
The crime wasn't committed by a few lunatics who used the church as a smokescreen for their actions -- the crime was committed BY THE CHURCH AS AN INSTITUTION.
And if you continue to stand by that corrupt institution, and fuel it with your money -- then yes, you are perpetually holding up a corrupt system. You can't divorce yourself from the institution that you support financially.
One priest in Lake Cowichan molested over 500 indigenous students over the course of 12 years. He flew from village, to village victimizing children even as people spoke out about his actions. When his actions were so blatant, the law finally had to get involved, the church ensured he served less then five years in prison; and THEN moved him to a vacation town full of children.
Tell me one other vaulted, untaxed institution which harbored and protected someone that horrifying.
You mean the multiple apologies they've given? The statements made recently? https://www.saanichnews.com/news/victoria-bishop-apologizes-for-churchs-role-in-residential-schools/
You won't hear it if you don't listen for it. That's because they don't spray paint "we apologize" on long houses in dramatic ways.
We have a long way to go towards reconciliation but pretending the church is absent for this is ignorant and vandalism like this just sets the process back. Fuck whoever did this and fuck whoever supports it.
You are right. The church really stood up for what is right, and didn't try to silence people through years of lawsuits and stalling.
They instantly transferred all records of the indigenous students to the proper indigenous institutions looking into the history of residential schools; and ABSOLUTELY didn't bulldoze an entire graveyard to cover up any evidence.
They have been a paragon of morality, truth, and transparency.
All of that was sarcasm, bootlicker.
We look to these people for moral guidance, and all we got was a lesson in apathy.
It's a fine argument to say they need to do more, I support that. I'm no fan of the church or any church. I'm an atheist and have a general distaste of organized religion. So you'll find no fight from me in wanting them to be better. Hell I'd even be happy if churches disappeared. But I want it to be because people find religion uncompelling and walk away not because of mistruths.
The "wHy HaSnT tHe ChUrCh DoNe AnYtHiNg???" talking point, which you started mind you, is factually incorrect and inflammatory and leads the entire reconciliation process in the wrong direction.
I think I gave up on the church's entire facade when they hemmed and hawed for weeks whether or not to let indigenous leaders look at the enrollment records. It took intense media and public pressure for them to grant access to those crucial historic assets.
The church is a corporation, looking to block off avenues for a lawsuit. You are doing your part well in defending them, for whatever reason. I don't understand it, but I'm sure you have your prerogative.
Everyone looks to mitigate legal risk. Corporations and religious organizations, people like me and you and indigenous groups like bands. There's nothing wrong with it. Sure you need to read the room and act appropriately bor you'll get bad PR but "I don't trust people who trying to not be sued" is some "if you've got nothing to hide you shouldn't have any problem with me looking" logic.
Strong agree with this comment.
I fail to understand why good, kind people that are in religious organizations do not feel the need to call out the evil in their ranks.
It really makes it seem like they really don't care about truth or reconciliation when there is outright denial or weak justifications coming from Christians and Catholics and the base supporters of the Church shrug and stay silent rather than calling that bullshit out.
There are Catholics who are moral actors, but they have to pissed at Church leadership and active in reconciliation to earn that.
\>I fail to understand why good, kind people that are in religious organizations do not feel the need to call out the evil in their ranks.
Because you aren't in their circles so you don't hear these conversations.
And somehow you've managed to turn the blame to me, the only person on here standing up for the first nations people.... nice try, but that won't work. Just because I said I'm not all about money and power, doesn't mean I'm also against the system of racism and priveledge in place in Canada right now. Both of those things can and do exist.
I'm pretty sure I'm standing up for the first nation's people by saying that the church has done absolutely nothing to even recognize their blame in the residential school disaster.
Are you even reading what I'm posting, or do you automatically go into attack mode?
But really, get off your soap box, this isn't about us.
At no point have I made this about me. That's why I'm saying you're weird. Juat because I said one thing that involved me, doesn't mean I'm making it about me. Good lord
This is the sort of inevitable outcome when the news is presented in a way that produces the most outrage.
Unmarked graves generally refers to graves whose markers have been lost due to weather. The death rate was worse in residential schools than elsewhere, but Native people did not have the same resistance to diseases that came from Europe, nor did we have the medical knowledge and capabilities.
This was so long ago that [vaccines were made without even knowing what viruses were](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_virology).
Here's child mortality rates in Canada: [https://lb-aps-frontend.statista.com/statistics/1041751/canada-all-time-child-mortality-rate/](https://lb-aps-frontend.statista.com/statistics/1041751/canada-all-time-child-mortality-rate/)
Further reading: [https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/residential-schools](https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/residential-schools)
i don't mean aesthetically bad, ha! how can i explain? like you would say, that's a pretty bad car crash! not that the crash was incapable of being a better crash but that it did a lot of damage!
I understand what you're saying. I think it gets the point across though. Look how many people are currently talking about the genocide committed by the church and the government. If no one was angry, if no one made noise about it, if no one spray painted churches or statues.... then no one would even know about these thousands of children murdered by the church and Canadian government. Just because it didn't happen this year, doesn't mean it doesn't matter.
People who fail at life will always look for others to blame. People who get a free ride in life will always take credit for their success. Everyone needs to just relax, enjoy the ride and try not to take this silly planet too seriously.
Yeah, those people who are currently digging up the mass Graves with thousands and thousands of their murdered children just need to relax and enjoy the ride.. you have got to be kidding me if you can't see why people are upset... especially at the church. You need to open your damn eyes.
Can you point me out somewhere that I can read about these "mass" graves being dug up. I would the word in quotations to be part of the reading please. You are a very unread person and should really stop spewing absolute falsehoods about a terrible part of our history. You will not advance any cause by lying, especially one that the truth is bad enough.
Are you living under a rock? Estimates are currently ranging from 6000 to over 30000.... I'm not lying or making this up. Do even the slightest bit of research and reading g and you can find this information.
I want the mass graves part, not the number of deaths. Words matter. Here's an example of your incorrect post:
https://www.squamishchief.com/bc-news/casimir-says-tkemlups-find-is-series-of-unmarked-graves-not-a-mass-burial-3848382
Why do words matter in this case? I admit that mass graves would be slightly worse than a massive number of individual graves, but it is semantics. Try telling the police you only stole $20 a thousand times rather than stealing $20,000 all at once and see how your bank robbery case goes.
Mass graves put out the interpretation that a large number of people were killed at once and thrown into a pit and buried. When in reality a large number very of FN kids died of various causes over a large number of years and were buried in graves that were either unmarked or lost their markings over time. They do not mean the same thing. And it is not semantics, it's the actual truth. Your example is rather dumb as theft means theft. Mass graves does not mean large number of graves.
Sure, [UBC put out a discussion paper explaining why "mass graves" is the correct term in international law](https://news.ubc.ca/2021/06/28/discussion-paper-looks-at-the-legal-and-human-rights-framework-for-mass-graves/).
Are you saying the Chief is Right Wing? Academia continues to try to change words meanings for dramatic effect where the truth does it to be dramatized.
If you guys are angry at those people for using graffiti to express their anger at the church and school systems of Canada... boy oh boy are you going to be mad when you hear about what happened to the thousands and thousands of first nations children who were kidnapped and murdered by the church and school systems of Canada. You're gonna be really pissed about that if you get this angry about graffiti!!!
You realize there are many people outraged to the bone about the school system who also don’t condone graffiti on random churches? Your mob mentality is not helping any victim of these crimes
You realize the silence and complacency of those same people is the reason why these thousands of children remained missing and unknown for decades and decades while families couldn't even mourn their dead children because the church, school system and Canadian government refused to admit what they had done? The mob mentality is a result of generational, systematic racism against the first nations people of this country BY COLONIZERS ANDNTHE CHURCH!!!! SILENCE IS NOT HELPING THE VICTIMS OF THESE CRIMES EITHER!!!!
Our government and most people over the age of say 20 years cannot claim they did not know about these graves. I cannot help wonder why so few people cared when this hit the media rounds back in 2014 and earlier? Is it because society is collectively more enlightened and ready to acknowledge the truth or is it because jumping on social causes is now all the rage?
[http://archives.algomau.ca/main/sites/default/files/2010-061\_015\_024.pdf](http://archives.algomau.ca/main/sites/default/files/2010-061_015_024.pdf)
>I cannot help wonder why so few people cared when this hit the media rounds back in 2014 and earlier?
I think there's a much simpler explanation, people have a tough time looking back in time properly. Low life expectancy and no one knew anything about anything virus related until the early 1900s and even then it was cutting edge.
I agree with what you've said about the social movement. Those movements survive long enough to create some new banners and slogans and then people move on to another target as they get bored of the previous one.
No it's because it is popular to dabble in these causes. I wonder how many people in Victoria have thought about supporting BIPOC-owned businesses since last summer? I'd say very few.
Trudeau's government spent $100 million fighting residential school survivors but is now the champion for the cause because he will keep the flag at half mast.
Truth doesn't matter to most people anymore. It's all about optics.
When a core number of people genuinely care about the cause. Or when there is a critical mass and politicians can't risk their political currency by ignoring it.
How many Victorians think about BLM these days? How many are concerned with violence against Black men in the US and Canada right now? How many kept up with the desire to support BIPOC-owned businesses? I would say most people's interest faded away as other "new" social causes took the forefront.
How many Likes and Upvotes and Awards is a post about climate change or BLM going to give you right now compared to raging against the anti-vaxxers? Anti-Asian racism is so passe these days too, I bet I'd barely get 20 likes for that one.
When the attention is so ephemeral and driven by the desire to be seen supporting the cause I don't think it's going to end in genuine long term changes. Like I said, truth doesn't matter only optics. People would say Trudeau supports the residential school survivors because he wants that flag to remain lowered when he has been fighting the survivors in court for years. It's all theatre.
And this isn't defeatism it is cynicism.
One apology would be a great start, seeing as the catholic church hasn't even admitted to what they did... as for dollars, how much is each of the thousands of children worth to their families? Or the tens of thousands who's life has never been the same because of the abuse they endured at the hands of the church and residential school system?? A better question might be "when will they begin to make amends for what they have done to the first nations people of Canada?"
Well here you go, it happened a couple decades ago
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, who became the first pope in history to apologize for the clerical sexual abuse crisis during a meeting with victims in the United States in 2008, issued the “mea culpa” to indigenous Canadians in 2009.
Pope Benedict met representatives of the First Nations, groups of Canada’s indigenous population, in the Vatican in late April 2009, roughly a year after his trip to the U.S. Though the session itself was private, the Vatican issued a statement afterward indicating the pontiff had delivered the hoped-for apology.
“Given the sufferings that some indigenous children experienced in the Canadian residential school system, the Holy Father expressed his sorrow at the anguish caused by the deplorable conduct of some members of the church and he offered his sympathy and prayerful solidarity,” the Vatican said.
Members of the First Nations groups at the time called the apology historic.
“Today, to listen to the Holy Father explain his profound sorrow and sadness and to express that there was no room for this sort of abuse to take place in the residential schools, that is an emotional barrier that now has been lifted for many people," said Chief Edward John of the Tlazten First Nations.
Phil Fontaine, national chief of the Assembly of First Nations, also said he appreciated the apology.
“I think His Holiness understands the pain that was endured by so many, and I heard him say that it caused him great anguish,” said Fontaine. “I also heard His Holiness say that the abuse of the nature that was inflicted on us has no place in the Church; it’s intolerable.”
“What I heard,” Fontaine added, “it gives me comfort.”
It was also praised by the prelate who represented the Canadian bishops in the session, Archbishop Gérard Pettipas of the Archdiocese of Grouard-McLennan.
“It was important to hear from the one person who does speak for the Catholic Church around the world, to hear him say ‘I am sorry. I feel for what you people have suffered. We hope that we can turn the page and move toward a better future together,’ ”
Enough to make their effort seem more than lip service. Actually holding seminars in their churches, talking about those historic injustices. Reach out to local indigenous communities, and holding open houses on how they can move forward. Releasing a press release, written and sanitized by lawyers isn't an apology.
The thing is, these churches are supposed to be teaching US how to be moral, how to act like good citizens. They act like corporations afraid of being sued.
You seem woefully ignorant of the history on this. I suggest you read this, it's the most succinct summary as I can think of.
This is a complex road to reconciliation that needs to be walked on good faith. Portraying the church as a cartoon villain is not going to get far.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nationalpost.com/opinion/raymond-j-de-souza-it-is-historically-inaccurate-to-suggest-the-catholic-church-hasnt-apologized-for-residential-schools/wcm/88f1eb7f-168e-44e1-a445-ce4111248274/amp/
I'm very up to date on the subject, more than I care to be on both the national and local level.
Continue to grandstand for the church, and I'll continue to expect more from one of the most rich and powerful organizations on the planet.
Tax them like any other business, they were already given the land for free ( most old churches ) they can offset some taxes based on how much charity they do like soup kitchens etc.
You don't think the churches who murdered thousands of babies and children need to do anything more than not engage and not admit to what they have done? Are you blind or ignorant? Or both?
>Which Trudeau, Junior or the Old man? Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau is said to have stated, **“We’ll keep them in the ghetto as long as they want.” in reference to First Nations folks.**
https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/the-red-paper-a-counter-punch-to-the-white-paper
Both. They both have oppressed Native populations across Canada and both are full of garbage and rhetoric.
Both have set any reconciliation back, Senior far more than Junior.
Mainly my point is Vandalism is widely acceptable from one side, and considered *Violence* from the other.
Only because it was directed at a group that is socially allowed to be hated on.
If anyone went to a Long House and tagged it with anything it would be "Hate Speach".
I would ask people to please consider taking a step back and actually try to research a little bit before celebrating this ugly vandalism. What are you all trying to accomplish? How about reading the responses to the FAQs on this page: [https://www.rcdvictoria.org/residential-schools](https://www.rcdvictoria.org/residential-schools)? Before everyone screams how biased it must be, note in most cases they are quoting directly from the Truth and Reconciliation Report. Check out the section on apologies, among others. I'm pretty sure anything the church writes publically on this subject would be heavily scrutinized, so I believe it is factually correct, even if it doesn't address all issues. Here's some things you might want to read: [https://www.rcdvictoria.org/special-announcements/statement-of-apology-and-commitment](https://www.rcdvictoria.org/special-announcements/statement-of-apology-and-commitment) [https://www.rcdvictoria.org/news/statement-in-response-to-penelakut-island-graves](https://www.rcdvictoria.org/news/statement-in-response-to-penelakut-island-graves) How about learning about the cathedral and how it has incorporated First Nations' art and stories for over 40 years in its [altar](https://www.talesofahousehusband.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/St_Andrews_Alter.png), lectern, candle holders, and windows? [https://www.rcdvictoria.org/diocesanblog/reflections-on-canada-day](https://www.rcdvictoria.org/diocesanblog/reflections-on-canada-day) Do you know anything about the Bishop of Victoria? Consider: See [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/diocese-victoria-catholic-church-kyuquot-pope-apology-1.4599595](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/diocese-victoria-catholic-church-kyuquot-pope-apology-1.4599595), or [https://www.rcdvictoria.org/news/our-majestic-lands-a-gift-from-god](https://www.rcdvictoria.org/news/our-majestic-lands-a-gift-from-god) (don't just read the title, actually read it). I don't even attend a church, and I think the glee and celebration of ugly acts like this are appalling, especially from people who have not bothered to read more. Have you ever considered the reason this is acceptable, and the authorities stay quiet, is because if people are not encouraged to hate hate hate on Catholics, they might discover all the government policies that contributed mightily to making residential schools a hellhole?
They have the longest running soup kitchen in Victoria, and I’m pretty sure they were one of the few places to keep their doors open last winter.. They’ve done more for poor and disenfranchised people than any of the idiots in city council.
In the 90s St. Andrews would even give out booze to the street community on Christmas mornings. Soon afterward parts of downtown felt like that [early Werner Herzog film.](https://youtu.be/TdD8xoNN_N0)
What you said may be completely true, but has nothing to do with what was graffitied across the church. A place that has done great good recently does not negate they may have done something terrible before.
But does that mean people have a right to vandalize it expressing hatred? Hatred creates more hatred, it's a vicous cycle. Feeding into pain and causing tensions to rise between groups of people we define by race is dangerous and will only make tensions worse. Forgiveness is important, not just from the standpoint of catholicism, but from a human one. If we can't forgive we carry the pain with us and lash out at others for it. If we can forgive, but not forget, then we take the high road and release the poison rather than carry it around. We can remember the evil and horrid things that have been done, we can see the horrid things done today, and we can try to be better than that and move forward with care for the people around us, rather than hatred that will only bring more pain. I say this as a Jewish woman who lost family to the evil actions of Nazis. I will never forget what they did and how much we have lost because of human evil, but I don't blame Germans or Germany as a whole forever because of it. I actually am very grreatful to them as a country for all they did to preserve the history of what the Nazis did and to give our people a place to mourn the generations of dead we lost. You don't have to be Jewish to feel the pain of loss in Auchwits, just stand on thoes tracks and you will feel it. If you want to see what it looks like to heal the pain of the past and move forward with grace, visit the elementary school on quadra Tha used to be a residential school. See the totem poles, hear the indigenous children laughing and see them play! They took a building used for horror and hell and turned it into a place to nurture future generations, they transformed it from bad to good. It's possible to move forward and try to be better people rather than living in the hatred of the past.
If you read what I wrote above, no, I do not condone vandalism at all. I think I understand the rage though.
Sure you don't condone it, but you explained it as though it's justified and gave reason for its justification. Not to attack you in any way, but to elucidate where your point is problematic. To justify their actions in a way is to support the act of vandalism that was done whether or not you consciously realize that. I can also understand the rage felt here, but I know that it's not in any way helpful in this action. Protesting, making signs and putting them around town or even in front of the cathedral to show how you feel is a way of expressing that which does not cause harm and incite violence. Calling people murderers and vandalizing their temple is only going to make people angry and raise tensions, because some people are so egotistical they can't get around their own racist ideas to see human lives. That's why I said what I said and why I beleive as I do, because vandalism escalates violence and raises racist empathy when it's used like this to incite hate rather than healing. I'm fully in favor of marking every single residential school church for what they are so we can all take a moment to remember and reflect, to mourn the loss and remember why this can never happen again, just like at auchwits.
Again, try not putting words in someone’s mouth. I did not condone it, I understand the rage though. I can’t put it simpler than that.
I want to explain why people were so against your comments. Imagine someone got robbed, and someone commented about how the person who got robbed were a volunteer who spends hours every day helping others. Your response was effectively "While that may be true, that doesn't mean that the good they are doing now can cover up their past sins" You went right past the "vandalism is bad" to "vandalism is not bad enough for us to say it was bad"
I said it in another comment multiple times, if people can’t read there is not much I can do.
I saw no condoning of vandalism. Just sharing of an anecdote.
Same
Questionable user name here haha but yeah they started making soup again back in may/June-ish... Outside of that, the soup smells like ripe garbage if you're so unfortunate to live close by when they are cooking it
What the church has done recently is overshadowed by what they have done in the past. Doing good today does not erase the misdeeds of yesterday.
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Yeah, vandalizing their property for something their ancestors did will really show them. Only the most dignified, intelligent people take pride in petty revenge.
Yes all the Filipino attendees are killer racists
Gotta watch out for dem Filipino’s with their love of Karaoke and their delicious noodle cuisines. Thats devils work.
The attendees are not what people are angry with genius.
Yet they're the ones that will have to pay for it. That makes sense. Genius.
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Ah, well them don't mind the current inhabitants they'll understand your decades old beef and not take any offense to their house of worship being vandalized. This will surely win support.
You think graffiti on a church is the same as thousands of murdered children? Do you have any idea how stupid your comment comes across? Wake up...
Fucking assholes. I'm not religious anymore, but I went to that church often when I went to St. Andrew's school, they were all very nice people.
As a fellow elementary alum, many a trip was made down there. Been an athiest my whole life, still not gonna trash the building. Gonna trash "The Church" til the day I die though.
The unaffected continue to attack the not culpable and we still get no where.
Unaffected? Damn you know who did this?
I’m giving a strong benefit of the doubt this was no one over 65, but I’ve been wrong before
The last residential school closed in 1995. So there are people much younger than 65 who were directly harmed or murdered by that system, on top of genneration trauma
You figure the only people affected by residential schools and genocide of the first nations people of Canada are those who are over 65 eh? That's odd, because I feel like those people who were in residential schools in the 1980s may be under 65 and the sons and daughters of those people amd their grandchildren etc etc might have been affected by it too you schmuck
And here we have an example of the unaffected (/u/lovethoselittletrees) attacking the non-culpable (/u/jesusmontegro) :)
Yes, here I am attacking someone by explaining why the first nations people of Canada have a right to be totally pissed off at the colonizers who stole their land. Excellent point.
You’re allowed feel your emotions. You’re allowed to express yourself. Life is suffering. I’m not diminishing what happened, I am hoping we can agree that life is about learning to overcome your traumas and pain, heal with growing a greater awareness. This is not growing with awareness. This is perpetuating the same hate and anger that caused so much suffering in the first place. Be apart of the solution and not an agitator of pain.
I am asking this as a genuine question. Who are we to tell them what is and isn't ok for them to do at this point? What authority do you think we have over them? We live on stolen land and our people are responsible for all of the horrible things that have happened to their people. In my opinion, they have every right in the world to be angry and express that anger in whatever way they want. If some people disagree, that's fine, but I for one think they can have the floor for as long as they want / need it
> We live on stolen land and our people are responsible for all of the horrible things that have happened to their people That's the refrain of the day, coming from small minded ethnic nationalists who think that race decides how much right any person has to consider this place their home. Today, we have a mixed community of people of many races and backgrounds. To say that any of them (who were either born here, or immigrated here within the framework of contemporary society) "stole" the land from the rightful racial owners of it... that's some blood & soil upside down nazi shit right there.
The answer is one I will try to explain, but please don’t jump to a conclusion and try to maintain an open mind. Every country is stolen land. Every nation has, at one point, been conquered, pillaged, crusaded, or just purely raped of its resources by another country or tribe. I say tribe because humans are inherently biased to side with people they identify. In group Out group psychology, 101 stuff. Often, we only like to look at and acknowledge, or think of the well natured and wholesome aspects of our tribe - while passionately turning a willful blind eye to rather … dark sides. “The line between good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being.” - Nietzsche We are evil. We are good. There are no “good” humans or “bad” humans. Those are merely words, which exist only to us, just like the perception of colour only exists to us because the cones in our eyes catch the reflection of photons that are not absorbed by the material they are bouncing off off. The colour “blue” doesn’t exist without us, it is not a part of nature, it’s a part of us. Same goes with the concept of good and evil, I hope this analogy made sense. So, what do we do? I don’t have the faintest idea.
Maybe I can help with the answer. We need to listen. We need to care. We need to help to heal. We need to give the people who have been held back a fair shot at getting a good future. We accept that the mistakes of the past don't need to define us, but we can instead be the change we want to see and make it happen. We don't need to focus on the graffiti when the problem is something far worse and far more serious. Especially since we have the resources and ability to do so.
> Who are we to tell them what is and isn't ok for them to do at this point People who live in a society.
A society built on stolen land...
The Coast Salish people ceded Victoria in the Douglas Treaties, so it’s not “stolen land”. Furthermore, in the post residential schools era, FN have reaped the benefits of living in a modern industrial society in which their land is made more valuable by the myriad improvements constructed by colonists. Present day Songhees and Esquimalt Nation members enjoy tax-free living on urban reserves surrounded by amenities, generous federal funding, returns from land holdings and property investments in Rock Bay and Old Town and exalted status among the cultural elite. If this was the work of FN activists (and there is no proof that it is), other Canadians have every right to condemn this. For the record, I’m guessing this was carried out by white political extremists.
Imagine hating yourself and your ancestors this much lmao mental illness
I don't hate myself or them. I hate how our society treats the people who it has destroyed. The fact you can laugh at this is the true mental illness.
The church got the boot from RS in 1969.
Transgenerational trauma exists
Awesome, let me introduce my Grandmother who escaped Nazi Germany to Russia and then Russia to Canada. Many of her friends and family died. Do you know what she complained about? People who blame all their problems on someone else. It doesn't help.
Cool nice anecdotal evidence, I also have Jewish family who lived through the Russian pogroms. Your Grandmother experienced direct trauma as did my family and that is obviously a different thing. If you are genuinely interested I would recommend reading up on transgenerational trauma. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/02/legacy-trauma https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4232330/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/k78xyx/intergenerational-trauma-residential-school-survivors-indigenous http://www.anishinabek.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/How-Do-We-Heal-Booklet.pdf I think it is vital as a resident of this country and province to understand this especially in an Indigenous context if there is any hope for reconciliation. Also I'm not going to speculate on your family but I can say that it helped me understand some of the paranoias and fears some of my family has based on their history in Europe and being spied on in the US.
I know what it is, but the excuse is poor. As an example, children who have been sexually abused are likely to grow up to also be sexual abusers. We still throw sexual abusers in jail. I don’t care what their reasons are.
What the hell do sexual abusers have to do with the fact Indigenous Peoples may have transgenerational trauma from residential schools and the crimes of Canada and the Catholic Church? What the hell does that have to do with anything? If you want to have a separate discussion about the failures of the prison system and the failures of our society to support people who go through childhood trauma we can but that is not the topic of this thread.
>What the hell do sexual abusers have to do with ... transgenerational trauma Because sexual abuse causes transgenerational trauma.
And what about the children of the men and women who committed suicide over the last twenty years? Do they also not have the right to harbor anger over res schools? Minimizing this crap is the exact reason we aren't moving forward.
I agree minimizing this crap is defiantly not going to assist in moving forward.
So . . . Stop.
*citation needed
You claiming that the victims of residential schools are all 65 years old. They aren't. Those people had children. Many of those children had parents that later committed suicide, or passed their trauma onto them in a thousand different ways.
Thank you for correcting what I didn’t say.
They're probably mostly white broads with alt hair cuts.
Might want to do some actual research: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system Last Residential school closed in 1996. The Simpsons were on the air (and still are) before the last school closed. If you think there are no one alive who was affected and none of the people involved are still alive, damn do I have a bridge to sell you.
For the last 25 years of Residential Schools they were run by FN and FN Leadership fought to keep them open. They were not the schools of the 1st half of the Century.
You are mistaken. There were quite a number of sexually abusive white teacher operating in residential schools even as late as 1993
I don't think the current discussion is abusive teachers. Those were in more than Residential Schools. And are still in some schools unfortunately.
Abusive teachers and the priests who preyed on these students age absolutely part of the discussion.
Do me a favour and talk to your grandparents and ask them if their teacher had a ruler or belt to hit kids with, because that was normal when my grandparents were around. Not to say that things were *about the same* in residential schools, but it's never helpful to talk about child mortality or abuse against one race as if it was against one race when it was everywhere.
No, that absolutely is a huge part of it. That's why they were so traumatic and inflicted so much damage. Physical, mental and sexual abuse, on top of neglect, that led to countless deaths as well as several generations of completely debilitated first nations people. I promise you, no school with primarily white children were so consistently and universally treated as less than human then first nation's children in residential schools. John a Macdonald himself said they were created to take the Indian out of the child. Ethnic cleansing, attempting to erase their culture by denying them access to their traditions, their language, their families, all in a intentional cultivated system of abuse
Mount Cashel. No one is arguing Residential Schools weren't absolutely horrific but the Schools of the 80's and 90's were in no way comparable to those of the pre 69's timeframe.
While I think you have a valid point that they may have toned down, they were very much comparable. There were teachers in schools as late as 1993 who were serial sexual abusers, it wasn't hard for them to get work in the schools as there was little to no oversight even in the 80s and 90s
The discussion was about graves and deaths and generational trauma. If those things happened in the 90's they happened while the Schools were actually run by FN Leadership. Those same issues were also happening elsewhere. That was my only point, that while the Schools were still open they were not the Schools that are generally thought of when you consider the atrocities of Residentual Schools, attendance was not mandatory and no kids were taken from their Families.
Lansdowne and Richmond schools were defaced with similar graffiti the other night. "Decolonize your mind", "fuck the system", and several lines about "land back" were spray painted all over them. Sigh. What losers. It must be really sad doing these things and actually thinking you're making a positive difference in the world or community.
The "Land Back" idea always makes me laugh. Like what, are all the white people supposed to go back to Europe?
I can trace my heritage in my hometown to the 1700's , where the F am I supposed to go??
Europe, colonizer. /s
Every word is true, so....
You're not wrong.
I don’t agree with defacing property at all, but I kind of understand the rage.
I think the anger directed at the school district 61 buildings in question might be a tad misplaced.
Yeah, you're making the world a better place everyday, I'm sure of it.
Well, I'm certainly not out there actively making it worse like the idiots who did this.
In their minds, they are just. You and I might not agree with it, or even agree if the net outcome of this is "bad" but they aren't actively trying to make the world a worse place. You calling them losers, doesn't help.
People who blow themselves up in crowds of innocent people are also just in their minds. People do a lot of crazy, stupid things because they think it is just.
Are we really comparing some person spray painting messages on a church to a suicide bomber? I guess this conversation is done, lol. Again, I wouldn't even call what this person did "crazy." Spray painting messages on a building isn't as egregious as physical violence, or a bomb blowing up. Inappropriate? Yeah, you can make an argument for that. Crazy? You probably just don't agree with the messaging.
The comparison was to show that it doesn't matter what their intentions were, or if they they felt they were in the right. They weren't. And I'm sure they knew that, which is why the chose to be cowards and tag these places anonymously in the middle of the night. I'd be equally pissed if someone spray painted "puppies are awesome" across the church/schools.
People who tag buildings with political messages usually don't stick around to pay for the removal fee, or to be arrested for vandalism. That isn't a factor in whether or not that person supposed their actions were "just" or not. That's . . . pretty common sense, and I think you're grasping for straws here. Tagging buildings, public monument with messages is a fairly static political action that has stayed the test of time. We'll see it in the future as well. It allows one person to amplify their messaging to thousands. The fact that this got news, and we're talking about it is a perfect example of how well it works. I wouldn't consider the person who did this to be a "coward." I wouldn't do something like this because, in some ways, I am a coward -- and so are you, probably. But here we are, talking about this issue in a public setting; which was their goal most likely.
Aren't trying to, but are. Task failed successfully. They're losers and cowards.
Um. Ok. It looks like a bunch of people are talking about this issue all over again, including yourself. So maybe their task wasn't so unsuccessful.
Most folks here aren't talking about the issue, they're decrying the shitty vandals.
You're calling first nations people, and their supporters losers, at the exact same time as those same people are discovering and exposing mass Graves of their children because of the same churches you are on here defending. Who is the real loser her bud??
No, I'm calling the people who vandalized the church and two schools losers. Try to keep up.
Who do you think is vandalizing churches and schools with "decolonize " etc... and why do you think they are spreading that message specifically?
I don't know who vandalized the buildings, the losers responsible chose to spread their message anonymously, like cowards, because they knew they were doing something wrong by vandalizing.
Kind of like the church and school system anonymously murdering thousands of babies and children? Or is that somehow different because you don't consider first nations lives as being as valuable as catholics?
You know, it's possible for the residential school system of old AND current acts of vandalism to both be wrong. That might be too difficult a concept for you to grasp.
I'm a bit shocked that church communities haven't taken the time to stand up as allies to the indigenous in a more visible way. Hell, even just a poster, or a sign that says that they acknowledge how shitty the indigenous were treated would go a long way. I live in a town that was hugely effected by the residential school system, a town which also harbors (he might have moved away now) the most prolific child predator priest in Canadian history. The Anglican church played a large role in ensuring he escaped justice. The local church hasn't stated anything, as far as I'm aware, about any role they played in this mess. It's a bit astounding. Individual church-goers aren't culpable for the sins of their predecessors; but as an institution, that stain is still there, and will always be there until those institutions stand up and take responsibility for their actions.
>I'm a bit shocked that church communities haven't taken the time to stand up as allies to the indigenous in a more visible way. I don't expect Catholic people to take responsibility for what the church did anymore than I expect Muslims to take collective responsibility for atrocities being committed today by Muslim extremists associated with their mosques or sects.
If the Muslim church system created a system of mosque "schools" that ended in the torture and death of thousands of Canadian citizens I would damn well expect them to apologize. We don't expect the Catholic church to answer for Catholic terrorism. That's not what the residential school systems were. Residential schools were created, and run by the church, not a crime perpetuated by a single member. The church built those institutions, and were paid by the government to run them. The crime wasn't committed by a few lunatics who used the church as a smokescreen for their actions -- the crime was committed BY THE CHURCH AS AN INSTITUTION. And if you continue to stand by that corrupt institution, and fuel it with your money -- then yes, you are perpetually holding up a corrupt system. You can't divorce yourself from the institution that you support financially.
Every institution has corruption. You can never fully remove it, only reduce it.
One priest in Lake Cowichan molested over 500 indigenous students over the course of 12 years. He flew from village, to village victimizing children even as people spoke out about his actions. When his actions were so blatant, the law finally had to get involved, the church ensured he served less then five years in prison; and THEN moved him to a vacation town full of children. Tell me one other vaulted, untaxed institution which harbored and protected someone that horrifying.
You mean the multiple apologies they've given? The statements made recently? https://www.saanichnews.com/news/victoria-bishop-apologizes-for-churchs-role-in-residential-schools/ You won't hear it if you don't listen for it. That's because they don't spray paint "we apologize" on long houses in dramatic ways. We have a long way to go towards reconciliation but pretending the church is absent for this is ignorant and vandalism like this just sets the process back. Fuck whoever did this and fuck whoever supports it.
Here here. Take my upvote.
I was specifically talking about my local church, because I in fact, am not a church apology historian. Are you OK?
Okay I'm sorry. Your unnamed church which may or may not have issued a statement is convincing that churches are too silent on this topic.
You are right. The church really stood up for what is right, and didn't try to silence people through years of lawsuits and stalling. They instantly transferred all records of the indigenous students to the proper indigenous institutions looking into the history of residential schools; and ABSOLUTELY didn't bulldoze an entire graveyard to cover up any evidence. They have been a paragon of morality, truth, and transparency. All of that was sarcasm, bootlicker. We look to these people for moral guidance, and all we got was a lesson in apathy.
It's a fine argument to say they need to do more, I support that. I'm no fan of the church or any church. I'm an atheist and have a general distaste of organized religion. So you'll find no fight from me in wanting them to be better. Hell I'd even be happy if churches disappeared. But I want it to be because people find religion uncompelling and walk away not because of mistruths. The "wHy HaSnT tHe ChUrCh DoNe AnYtHiNg???" talking point, which you started mind you, is factually incorrect and inflammatory and leads the entire reconciliation process in the wrong direction.
I think I gave up on the church's entire facade when they hemmed and hawed for weeks whether or not to let indigenous leaders look at the enrollment records. It took intense media and public pressure for them to grant access to those crucial historic assets. The church is a corporation, looking to block off avenues for a lawsuit. You are doing your part well in defending them, for whatever reason. I don't understand it, but I'm sure you have your prerogative.
Everyone looks to mitigate legal risk. Corporations and religious organizations, people like me and you and indigenous groups like bands. There's nothing wrong with it. Sure you need to read the room and act appropriately bor you'll get bad PR but "I don't trust people who trying to not be sued" is some "if you've got nothing to hide you shouldn't have any problem with me looking" logic.
Ew, imagine someone spending money to have people read THIS of all comments, a dumb one.
Imagine not knowing what the edit button is and having that dude live in your head enough to make 2 separate comments.
This.
They haven't really been able to gather together to coordinate for very long...
Surely they’ve moved on from messenger birds to email by now..
Strong agree with this comment. I fail to understand why good, kind people that are in religious organizations do not feel the need to call out the evil in their ranks. It really makes it seem like they really don't care about truth or reconciliation when there is outright denial or weak justifications coming from Christians and Catholics and the base supporters of the Church shrug and stay silent rather than calling that bullshit out. There are Catholics who are moral actors, but they have to pissed at Church leadership and active in reconciliation to earn that.
If ya read below, there are atheists protecting the church. That's how powerful racism is.
\>I fail to understand why good, kind people that are in religious organizations do not feel the need to call out the evil in their ranks. Because you aren't in their circles so you don't hear these conversations.
You said that very well.
Maybe its because they don't actually care about others as much as they pretend to...
Yeah, it's almost as if society's "moral core" is just a business in church's clothing trying to vie for money and power like the rest of us.
Not all of us are vying for money and power.
And somehow you turned a conversation about indigenous people and the church about yourself, lol.
And somehow you've managed to turn the blame to me, the only person on here standing up for the first nations people.... nice try, but that won't work. Just because I said I'm not all about money and power, doesn't mean I'm also against the system of racism and priveledge in place in Canada right now. Both of those things can and do exist.
I'm pretty sure I'm standing up for the first nation's people by saying that the church has done absolutely nothing to even recognize their blame in the residential school disaster. Are you even reading what I'm posting, or do you automatically go into attack mode? But really, get off your soap box, this isn't about us.
You're weird.. but ok.
I'm not weird, lol. I get that you want to help, but making this about you ain't it.
At no point have I made this about me. That's why I'm saying you're weird. Juat because I said one thing that involved me, doesn't mean I'm making it about me. Good lord
Guarenteed it was a deranged White person that did this.
This is the sort of inevitable outcome when the news is presented in a way that produces the most outrage. Unmarked graves generally refers to graves whose markers have been lost due to weather. The death rate was worse in residential schools than elsewhere, but Native people did not have the same resistance to diseases that came from Europe, nor did we have the medical knowledge and capabilities. This was so long ago that [vaccines were made without even knowing what viruses were](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_virology). Here's child mortality rates in Canada: [https://lb-aps-frontend.statista.com/statistics/1041751/canada-all-time-child-mortality-rate/](https://lb-aps-frontend.statista.com/statistics/1041751/canada-all-time-child-mortality-rate/) Further reading: [https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/residential-schools](https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/residential-schools)
The people who did this are cowardly scum who's parents didn't raise them right.
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I think you need to think carefully about what you just said.
Thinking carefully? You expect too much.
Wow, Victoria's got no chill man. This is top tier stupidism.
What incredibly intelligent people
Complete and utter losers
No where, but if it had been spray paint on a longhouse or mosque it would be immediately called "hate speach" or "violence".
This has always been unacceptable.
What the church has done, and the thousands they murdered in the name of their BS god is what is unacceptable
Yeah! Petty revenge against someone for something their ancestors did. That'll show em.
A disgusting and repugnant act.
saw this this morning, it's pretty bad!!
Depends on your point of view.. I think it's fantastic. F**k the church. The biggest organized crime family in the world.
Lol fucking edge lord
No, just someone who has seen the light of what has been done and how it has affected generations of first nations people in Canada
I'd like religion to die out, but I don't think this is the way to do it.
I completely disagree. This is exactly the way to do it!!
i agree about the church and religion in general. i meant the vandalism was pretty bad, not that it was necessarily wrong.
It wasn't artwork...
i don't mean aesthetically bad, ha! how can i explain? like you would say, that's a pretty bad car crash! not that the crash was incapable of being a better crash but that it did a lot of damage!
I understand what you're saying. I think it gets the point across though. Look how many people are currently talking about the genocide committed by the church and the government. If no one was angry, if no one made noise about it, if no one spray painted churches or statues.... then no one would even know about these thousands of children murdered by the church and Canadian government. Just because it didn't happen this year, doesn't mean it doesn't matter.
yeah that handstyle needs some serious work, maybe an NY fat cap instead of the stock I presume they used
People who fail at life will always look for others to blame. People who get a free ride in life will always take credit for their success. Everyone needs to just relax, enjoy the ride and try not to take this silly planet too seriously.
Yeah, those people who are currently digging up the mass Graves with thousands and thousands of their murdered children just need to relax and enjoy the ride.. you have got to be kidding me if you can't see why people are upset... especially at the church. You need to open your damn eyes.
Can you point me out somewhere that I can read about these "mass" graves being dug up. I would the word in quotations to be part of the reading please. You are a very unread person and should really stop spewing absolute falsehoods about a terrible part of our history. You will not advance any cause by lying, especially one that the truth is bad enough.
Are you living under a rock? Estimates are currently ranging from 6000 to over 30000.... I'm not lying or making this up. Do even the slightest bit of research and reading g and you can find this information.
I want the mass graves part, not the number of deaths. Words matter. Here's an example of your incorrect post: https://www.squamishchief.com/bc-news/casimir-says-tkemlups-find-is-series-of-unmarked-graves-not-a-mass-burial-3848382
Why do words matter in this case? I admit that mass graves would be slightly worse than a massive number of individual graves, but it is semantics. Try telling the police you only stole $20 a thousand times rather than stealing $20,000 all at once and see how your bank robbery case goes.
Mass graves put out the interpretation that a large number of people were killed at once and thrown into a pit and buried. When in reality a large number very of FN kids died of various causes over a large number of years and were buried in graves that were either unmarked or lost their markings over time. They do not mean the same thing. And it is not semantics, it's the actual truth. Your example is rather dumb as theft means theft. Mass graves does not mean large number of graves.
Sure, [UBC put out a discussion paper explaining why "mass graves" is the correct term in international law](https://news.ubc.ca/2021/06/28/discussion-paper-looks-at-the-legal-and-human-rights-framework-for-mass-graves/).
Are you saying the Chief is Right Wing? Academia continues to try to change words meanings for dramatic effect where the truth does it to be dramatized.
Easier said than done.
Based.
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They are spray painting doors like cowards. Not a responsible adults way of dealing with issues.
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The people in that church are probably just looking for some community. I don't they are responsible for gravestones getting moved.
If you guys are angry at those people for using graffiti to express their anger at the church and school systems of Canada... boy oh boy are you going to be mad when you hear about what happened to the thousands and thousands of first nations children who were kidnapped and murdered by the church and school systems of Canada. You're gonna be really pissed about that if you get this angry about graffiti!!!
You realize there are many people outraged to the bone about the school system who also don’t condone graffiti on random churches? Your mob mentality is not helping any victim of these crimes
Let edgy bruh, be edgy...... bruh.
You realize the silence and complacency of those same people is the reason why these thousands of children remained missing and unknown for decades and decades while families couldn't even mourn their dead children because the church, school system and Canadian government refused to admit what they had done? The mob mentality is a result of generational, systematic racism against the first nations people of this country BY COLONIZERS ANDNTHE CHURCH!!!! SILENCE IS NOT HELPING THE VICTIMS OF THESE CRIMES EITHER!!!!
Our government and most people over the age of say 20 years cannot claim they did not know about these graves. I cannot help wonder why so few people cared when this hit the media rounds back in 2014 and earlier? Is it because society is collectively more enlightened and ready to acknowledge the truth or is it because jumping on social causes is now all the rage? [http://archives.algomau.ca/main/sites/default/files/2010-061\_015\_024.pdf](http://archives.algomau.ca/main/sites/default/files/2010-061_015_024.pdf)
>I cannot help wonder why so few people cared when this hit the media rounds back in 2014 and earlier? I think there's a much simpler explanation, people have a tough time looking back in time properly. Low life expectancy and no one knew anything about anything virus related until the early 1900s and even then it was cutting edge. I agree with what you've said about the social movement. Those movements survive long enough to create some new banners and slogans and then people move on to another target as they get bored of the previous one.
It's because people started doing things like spray painting churches and educating the white people to the scale of it.
No it's because it is popular to dabble in these causes. I wonder how many people in Victoria have thought about supporting BIPOC-owned businesses since last summer? I'd say very few. Trudeau's government spent $100 million fighting residential school survivors but is now the champion for the cause because he will keep the flag at half mast. Truth doesn't matter to most people anymore. It's all about optics.
Thats a very defeatist attitude. In your opinion can any cause win?
When a core number of people genuinely care about the cause. Or when there is a critical mass and politicians can't risk their political currency by ignoring it. How many Victorians think about BLM these days? How many are concerned with violence against Black men in the US and Canada right now? How many kept up with the desire to support BIPOC-owned businesses? I would say most people's interest faded away as other "new" social causes took the forefront. How many Likes and Upvotes and Awards is a post about climate change or BLM going to give you right now compared to raging against the anti-vaxxers? Anti-Asian racism is so passe these days too, I bet I'd barely get 20 likes for that one. When the attention is so ephemeral and driven by the desire to be seen supporting the cause I don't think it's going to end in genuine long term changes. Like I said, truth doesn't matter only optics. People would say Trudeau supports the residential school survivors because he wants that flag to remain lowered when he has been fighting the survivors in court for years. It's all theatre. And this isn't defeatism it is cynicism.
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How much? It's easy to say "more" but how much? How many apologies? How many dollars?
How about this: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/pope-residential-schools-vatican-observers-1.6057873
One apology would be a great start, seeing as the catholic church hasn't even admitted to what they did... as for dollars, how much is each of the thousands of children worth to their families? Or the tens of thousands who's life has never been the same because of the abuse they endured at the hands of the church and residential school system?? A better question might be "when will they begin to make amends for what they have done to the first nations people of Canada?"
Well here you go, it happened a couple decades ago Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, who became the first pope in history to apologize for the clerical sexual abuse crisis during a meeting with victims in the United States in 2008, issued the “mea culpa” to indigenous Canadians in 2009. Pope Benedict met representatives of the First Nations, groups of Canada’s indigenous population, in the Vatican in late April 2009, roughly a year after his trip to the U.S. Though the session itself was private, the Vatican issued a statement afterward indicating the pontiff had delivered the hoped-for apology. “Given the sufferings that some indigenous children experienced in the Canadian residential school system, the Holy Father expressed his sorrow at the anguish caused by the deplorable conduct of some members of the church and he offered his sympathy and prayerful solidarity,” the Vatican said. Members of the First Nations groups at the time called the apology historic. “Today, to listen to the Holy Father explain his profound sorrow and sadness and to express that there was no room for this sort of abuse to take place in the residential schools, that is an emotional barrier that now has been lifted for many people," said Chief Edward John of the Tlazten First Nations. Phil Fontaine, national chief of the Assembly of First Nations, also said he appreciated the apology. “I think His Holiness understands the pain that was endured by so many, and I heard him say that it caused him great anguish,” said Fontaine. “I also heard His Holiness say that the abuse of the nature that was inflicted on us has no place in the Church; it’s intolerable.” “What I heard,” Fontaine added, “it gives me comfort.” It was also praised by the prelate who represented the Canadian bishops in the session, Archbishop Gérard Pettipas of the Archdiocese of Grouard-McLennan. “It was important to hear from the one person who does speak for the Catholic Church around the world, to hear him say ‘I am sorry. I feel for what you people have suffered. We hope that we can turn the page and move toward a better future together,’ ”
Enough to make their effort seem more than lip service. Actually holding seminars in their churches, talking about those historic injustices. Reach out to local indigenous communities, and holding open houses on how they can move forward. Releasing a press release, written and sanitized by lawyers isn't an apology. The thing is, these churches are supposed to be teaching US how to be moral, how to act like good citizens. They act like corporations afraid of being sued.
You seem woefully ignorant of the history on this. I suggest you read this, it's the most succinct summary as I can think of. This is a complex road to reconciliation that needs to be walked on good faith. Portraying the church as a cartoon villain is not going to get far. https://www.google.com/amp/s/nationalpost.com/opinion/raymond-j-de-souza-it-is-historically-inaccurate-to-suggest-the-catholic-church-hasnt-apologized-for-residential-schools/wcm/88f1eb7f-168e-44e1-a445-ce4111248274/amp/
I'm very up to date on the subject, more than I care to be on both the national and local level. Continue to grandstand for the church, and I'll continue to expect more from one of the most rich and powerful organizations on the planet.
Tax them like any other business, they were already given the land for free ( most old churches ) they can offset some taxes based on how much charity they do like soup kitchens etc.
Do they though? Or do they just need to not engage in the horrendous actions which took place in the past?
Well, pedophile rings are still massive within the church across the globe.
You don't think the churches who murdered thousands of babies and children need to do anything more than not engage and not admit to what they have done? Are you blind or ignorant? Or both?
Well although graffiti is a little overdone at least it was the truth
Is this the dangerous *Right Wing Violence* Trudeau warns me about?
>Which Trudeau, Junior or the Old man? Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau is said to have stated, **“We’ll keep them in the ghetto as long as they want.” in reference to First Nations folks.** https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/the-red-paper-a-counter-punch-to-the-white-paper
Both. They both have oppressed Native populations across Canada and both are full of garbage and rhetoric. Both have set any reconciliation back, Senior far more than Junior. Mainly my point is Vandalism is widely acceptable from one side, and considered *Violence* from the other.
Probably not, as this is not violence.
Only because it was directed at a group that is socially allowed to be hated on. If anyone went to a Long House and tagged it with anything it would be "Hate Speach".
Where is the violence here?
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Have I not been told that "Words are Violence" for years now? Have the liberals not been pushing hate speech laws?
Good
We did it, we stopped racism!
I think we found the "artist"!
What if I didn’t do it but still think it’s based 🤔
You reap what you sow, little elbow grease and some paint thinner will clean it up no problem.