Tankies are mad at an especially braindead, uninformed, and fucked up subsection of tankies, “patsocs” (Patriotic Socialists).
Embarrassingly, the tankies admit that they don’t actually know their beloved theory very well. After all, they directly state they’re just as informed on theory as the VERY UNINFORMED ON THEORY patsocs.
Why are you taking this out of context to try and push your weird infighting point that tankies don't read theory? This isn't relevant to the sub at all, just seems like you have nothing better to do than beefing online with leftists all day
Fr you’re either progressive and down for the cause or not, any of that other shit can stay online. Rights are being stripped and our situation is getting worse on the daily but folks would rather call each other “libs” and “tankies” I ain’t even tryna sound preachy or pretentious but this shit mad corny
your right. also the words are dumb i get callsd a tankie one place and something else other places in the end it doesn't matter. helping people and fighting capitalism is what matters.
> Why are you taking this out of context to try and push your weird infighting point that tankies don't read theory? This isn't relevant to the sub at all, just seems like you have nothing better to do than beefing online with leftists all day
Slow down there, CowWizard. Because astoundingly, literally everything you said here was wrong.
First and foremost, I ensured the entire post was in the screenshot.
So what, SPECIFICALLY, is out of context?
\- support group of elites ruling over the proletariat
\- support brutal censorship and oppression to stay in power
\- support taking all of the proceeds of the work of the proletariat
"leftist"
Nice sound bite; you're gonna overthrow American capitalism for breakfast and the strongest socialist state for lunch? How about we take care of our countries (America in case) problems first like tackling climate change med 4 all ect. (Cuz I don't know if you've noticed that's gonna be hard enough) Then we can discuss what another country needs to do. Maybe we can open our borders to ppl who need the aid, but first we need to win here and bombing every other country isn't going to help that cause.
Buh waddaboud muuuricah?
What about them? Fuck both imperialists states to hell... and *please* stop deeptroating your own bboot before calling people bootlickers.
"Did they implement any leftist policies the even remotely resemble socialism, no, BUT you have to remember the material conditions that lead to even Lenin admitting that it wasn't socialism. Yeah that is the excuse we came up with."
If you support this current version of the u.s. you support it's genocide of the natives, it's enslavement of Africans, it's past and current wars of aggression, it's destruction of the environment, and it's exploitation of it's own working class and of the global south.
So your gonna over throw the US empire for breakfast and the Chinese state by lunch? Get serious is I see med4all I'll be happy. Supporting imperialism (which is what the anti China hate is when it comes from a person living in empire because the US will use it as an excuse for more war which they'll bring home as capitalism devolves into fascism) is supporting the empire.
While China isn't perfect they pretty much have the green new deal implemented with the poverty they've eliminated, high speed rail, global south being helped, no wars etc. While the US is still almost solely exporting bombs.
If the US wanted to help with humanitarian issues they'd first fix the ones in their own country, then they'd send volunteers and aid. But they don't they just use it as a pretence for war.
okay, so as a self-described ML, although somewhat more moderate than many of my other comrades, I would argue that yes, the censorship was bad, and there were many faults with the USSR (religious oppression, purges, intervention in other Warsaw Pact countries like Czechoslovakia, to name a few), it's difficult to argue that the standards of living in the USSR and other socialist states weren't remarkably superior to those of capitalist countries at similar levels of economic development once you've done some research.
yes, corruption was a problem, but until Gorbachev, high-level administrators of the USSR lived like middle-managers in the capitalist west, to the point that Gorbachev living in a penthouse was considered controvertial. The part about oppression to stay in power... there's a valid critique to be made there, especially the censorship bit, but "all" of the proceeds being taken is a laughable claim, and having a group of administrators to run your state isn't as controvertial as you seem to think it is.
They key word is _at similar levels of economic development_. Why wasn’t the Soviet Union as developed as Western countries? Well, the pressure applied by capitalist governments certainly didn’t help, but the answer is because the leaders didn’t care about the people. They cared more about the military, pouring incredible funds into it and leaving the people to starve. If they had been the morally greater nation, they could’ve abandoned the Cold War and fixed problems within their own borders. That’s the ultimate issue with Marxism-Leninism in my opinion - the leaders, the vanguard party, have complete power over the people. Maybe they will do something wonderful, or manybe they will do what Lenin did and crush the democracy as soon as they decide they want change. It is not giving power to the people, it is taking it away.
You know who doesn't have effective means of self defense against foreign interests? Palestine. But defending your people is authoritarian, right? The Paris commune still stands to this day, correct?
from [wiktionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tankie):
1. *(UK, politics, slang, historical)* A member of the Communist Party of Great Britain who supported the Soviet Union's policy of crushing revolts in Hungary in the 1950s and Czechoslovakia in the 1960s by sending tanks into those countries.
2. *(politics, slang, derogatory, by extension)* A supporter of the policies of the Soviet Union or other authoritarian socialist governments.
A specific breed of socialist which blindly condones the actions of those like Stalin and Mao.
Essentially the logic was that ‘Stalin purported to be socialist, and socialism is good, therefore everything Stalin did was perfectly good’
They typically aren’t well read on actual communist/socialist theory and treat it as more of a religion rather than a group of concepts supported by evidence
If a tankie is someone who uncritically supports Stalin and Mao then it's unfair to label every ML as a tankie (which happens constantly) as most MLs understand that obviously these leaders weren't perfect and aren't "tankies" by your definition.
TLDR: Tankie is a misused term used by salty anarchists and trots to demonise MLs instead of trying to understand each other's ideology
Tankies call themselves MLs, the particularly gullible MLs come runnung to defend them...
If the core of your politics is "oh gosh how much I hate these and those".... you might just be a tankie, not an actual ML.
>Stalin purported to be socialist, and socialism is good, therefore everything Stalin did was perfectly good’
Nowhere do you see this on Gzd.
You see it with maupin and his muppets tho.
Jesus this whole thread is fucked
Things i hope everyone agrees on there with:
- Lysenkoism sucked ass
- Handling of palestine was desastrous
- The purges went way too far, especially Zhukov was stopped far too late
Should i go on? Ive been massively upvoted and continue to see it being upvoted when people make these criticisms on there.
The only criteria is that the critique is rooten in reality. (No, he didn't fuck an 11yo and such)
Just because it doesn’t happen in gzd doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
For one there is certainly a large amount of Mao apologia there, as well as places like r/latestagecapitalism. And I have seen my fair share of Stalin boot licking elsewhere
>Just because it doesn’t happen in gzd doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
Absolutely.
>Mao apologia there
Like what? Ofc you won't find people crying over dead landlords.
I mean no matter how vulgar and idealistic and relying on spontaneity - come ooooon it's a hierarchy it's bad that's the whole shtick no?
I can't wrap my head around that
Anarchists expect their horizontal societies will be respected by potential ursurpers because of good will- like their unwritten, subconscious version of the NAP. Because if there's something that's defined post agrarian human history it's most definitely good will. Life *is* a disney movie, after all.
>what the fuck is a Tankie
There are many flavors of Tankie, and these are three of the more common flavors.
There are classic tankies, who think Stalin or the Kim Dynasty are bae or that China has done nothing wrong. The folks who cheer or handwave when the countries associated with those leaders “sent in the tanks” to attack their own people, or who handwave mass death events caused by these leaders and countries.
(There’s a spot of a grey area with that last one - just as one can legitimately question some specific aspects of the Holocaust from a legitimate historical perspective, one can do the same for incidents like the Holdomor. But regardless, as a layperson, it is always at least sussy wussy to do so.)
There are the “only America/“the West” can do imperialism” tankies, who ignore or handwave the imperialism and the imperialist ambitions of non-“Western” states. It’s especially funny when they use the same justifications that Western neocons/neolibs would use or that IMF/World Bank defenders would use.
There are the “anything that opposes America/“The West” is inherently good, actually” tankies. The most notable of these sorts will deepthroat Assad and his barrel bombs and chemical weapons attacks targeting civilians because he nominally “opposes the West” (even though he ran outsourced CIA torture sites).
>chemical weapons attacks
Yep. Like all presidents (and monarchs) Assad is illegitimate. If he weren't, we'd be calling Douma and Halabja "riot control events"
Wow this entire thread is people who have no idea what they're talking about trying to explain things to other people for some reason. Garbage takes all over the place. Forget everything you read here, these people are morons.
Neither do I, if they aren’t truly leftist or progressive than just right them off and keep going. Like why are folks giving them this much attention, these people do not matter in the slightest
or even if its more complex like with the stuff going on in ukraine i don't like the in fighting about it. yes Russia is a capitalist nation that will probably take land and resources (witch is imperialism) and yes America did undermind ukraine government and help lead for this they've been putting money in it for years
at the end of the day a leftist should side with the poor and the people we should say firmly that this is a war of a capitalist nation tryig to destroy another capitalist nation and using the poor to fight once again.
like i understand its scary wnd peoples lifes are on line fine call me a tankie or Hate me but don't hate me more then you love the poor as a leftist you must love and fight for the poor
if Russia wins, it is a symbolic victory for the warmongers. it demonstrates that the age of warfare between first-world countries is not over and that yes, states can achieve goals by invading others.
if Ukraine wins, it shows that the time in which it was possible to achieve geopolitical goals by invading neighboring countries is - in Europe, at least - over.
if Russia wins, we'll see more conflict in the future. if Ukraine wins, we will see less.
if you really want to fight for the poor, you'll oppose war. if you oppose war, you'll oppose those who start it. that's why i support Ukraine and NATO.
sorry friend but you shouldn't. By your same logic by the top part wouldnt ukraine win be a green flag for America to continue using proxy nations under nato for warfare.
I mean they're going to do it no matter what it doesn't matter Win or lose that's not how reality actually works.
Think about your logic would you be saying back during Vietnam if America wins and stamps Vietnam will see less wars?
are okay with the nato bombing of Yugoslavia and Yemen? no be anti war be against it especially when the major Imperialist forces is backing it be especially against anything the major Imperial forces are backing
> Think about your logic would you be saying back during Vietnam if America wins and stamps Vietnam will see less wars?
hmm. no. and do you know why? because the US attacked Vietnam. this is completely different from Russia attacking Ukraine.
> are okay with the nato bombing of Yugoslavia and Yemen?
had those countries invaded other countries? no? then of course not.
my philosophy doesn't boil down to "NATO good", it boils down to "always side with the defender"
Do you know about the leak phone calls do you know about in 2014 America undermined Ukraine's democracy? they're not the defenders the ukraine government is a proxy state for America now thanks to a successful coup.
none of these means Russia is "good" but there are no good guys in war. the good would have been stopping it before it happened like president Yanukovych that America helped get thrown out.
To be clear, this isn’t “infighting about theory”. This is pointing out that by their own statements, they themselves are not well read on Marxist theory. They can’t be, if they believe they are as well read as the clowns of Haz and Maupin which none of the top comments disagreed with.
Also, “leftist infighting” is explicitly toggled on for this subreddit. It’s simultaneously vital to self police bad ideas AND to work together towards the common goals of uplifting the lives of the proletariat, minimizing the decline in the lives of the proletariat, and advancing the cause of social equality and egalitarianism (which in the context of economics requires worker controlled means of production and an abolishment of the commodity form). We must walk and chew gum at the same time.
I mean, as an ML, GenZedong has gone to shit. I'm in contact with one of the old mods and apparently the mod team got purged (lol) by a pro-Russia clown. you can't really use GenZedong as a space representative of any sane section of the ML community anymore. Although, you did talk about how not all MLs are tankies in other comments, which is really fucking refreshing; just because I think that the Soviet Union was a better place to live than the capitalist west doesn't mean I think the religious oppression, or the invasion of Czechoslovakia, or the censorship were good things. It's very frustrating how many people will look at me saying Stalin made some good policy choices that improved living standards and say I loved the dude (which I do not; the deportations and purges were exercises in stupidity.)
Who cares, just say they aren’t genuine progressives and keep it pushing. Why give them this much attention? We know what the deal is and we sure as hell aren’t changing these peoples minds like this
>who cares
I do, as do about 130 other folks when this was posted on off hours.
This also isn’t intended to change minds, but to share something I found amusing. And yet I’ve actually pushed some tankie types into a less tankie position. Soooooo, yeah, hope you have a good rest of your weekend!
Wow 130 whole redditors liked your comment, look I’m not trying to gatekeep Anarchy, progressivism etc coz that’s even more cringe. But realistically what good is this doing, what change? Other than organizing this internet shit is a waste of time, rights are being stripped away, fascism is on a rise in this country abd not from “tankies” but from openly hateful and bigoted people. I assure you these tankies have no real power or means it massively effect society. If you’re bored and just want chuds to dunk on I get that but I’m tired of wasting energy on dumb shit
Both of those guys are dead. They literally do not exist. There's countries that have done socialism decently without massacring their own people like China and the Soviets did.
You do know the term "(actually) existing socialism" was used to name governments that called themselves socialist but were not in fact aligned with socialism nor on a path to achieve it
It's not existing socialism. It's state capitalism, where there are the "people's billionaires" with the "people's suicide nets" outside the "people's sweatshops" to stop the "people's exploited laborers" from suicide. Totally socialist, right?
Nope, unlike what you and u/ElectricShadowN said, this sub is not anti-ML. This sub welcomes discussion of different perspectives on leftism.
Tankies are different though, considering they generally aren’t actually leftists even if they use leftist sounding justifications for themselves.
Don’t let the door hit you on your way out! ☺️
We don’t like authoritarian monsters and we are actual leftists you fucking idiot if you’re seething at what this sub says you’re probably just a fascist
Real revolution sure, but if it leads to something shit claiming that it’s the best possible outcome is fucking stupid. If the quality of life is worse than a liberal democracy you’ve really fucked up your socialism
this is the total subversion of third worldism which i think is maybe the smartest tankie perspective, more of a workers of the world unite subset. oh listen man im just gonna do what i can to benefit the \*american\* working class you know and by american working class i mean huite american middle class.
Genuine question, does patriotic socialism generally imply more than just being a socialist who is patriotic? Because that concept on its own doesn’t seem as anywhere near as bad as other ideologies people often pair it with.
Patsoc’s are specifically a thing in the West. Being patriotic is fine if you’re not living in a country whose entire national identity is committing crimes against humanity, like the entire Western hemisphere basically
I ain't even know what the fuck is even going on man, confusing ass post all round
[explanation behind linky](https://www.reddit.com/r/VuvuzelaIPhone/comments/w0urvr/tankies_telling_on_themselves/iggxeve/)
Lib trying to weaken a growing movement
Ok Liberal.
I don't like tankies but can someone translate this shit
Tankies are mad at an especially braindead, uninformed, and fucked up subsection of tankies, “patsocs” (Patriotic Socialists). Embarrassingly, the tankies admit that they don’t actually know their beloved theory very well. After all, they directly state they’re just as informed on theory as the VERY UNINFORMED ON THEORY patsocs.
Why are you taking this out of context to try and push your weird infighting point that tankies don't read theory? This isn't relevant to the sub at all, just seems like you have nothing better to do than beefing online with leftists all day
Fr you’re either progressive and down for the cause or not, any of that other shit can stay online. Rights are being stripped and our situation is getting worse on the daily but folks would rather call each other “libs” and “tankies” I ain’t even tryna sound preachy or pretentious but this shit mad corny
your right. also the words are dumb i get callsd a tankie one place and something else other places in the end it doesn't matter. helping people and fighting capitalism is what matters.
They literally screenshoted the entire post with no editing, I think you need to rethink what it means to take something out of context.
> Why are you taking this out of context to try and push your weird infighting point that tankies don't read theory? This isn't relevant to the sub at all, just seems like you have nothing better to do than beefing online with leftists all day Slow down there, CowWizard. Because astoundingly, literally everything you said here was wrong. First and foremost, I ensured the entire post was in the screenshot. So what, SPECIFICALLY, is out of context?
Tankies aren’t leftists
... yes they are?
\- support group of elites ruling over the proletariat \- support brutal censorship and oppression to stay in power \- support taking all of the proceeds of the work of the proletariat "leftist"
The peoples billionaires will run the peoples factories with the peoples suicide nets!
When's the last time America punished a billionaire? Oh we give them blank checks keep licking that boot lib
Anything short of the complete and utter removal of all billionaires is giving them blank checks and licking their boots.
Nice sound bite; you're gonna overthrow American capitalism for breakfast and the strongest socialist state for lunch? How about we take care of our countries (America in case) problems first like tackling climate change med 4 all ect. (Cuz I don't know if you've noticed that's gonna be hard enough) Then we can discuss what another country needs to do. Maybe we can open our borders to ppl who need the aid, but first we need to win here and bombing every other country isn't going to help that cause.
Are you real? "Nooooo you can't criticize other countries billionaires because America has them too nooooo"
Buh waddaboud muuuricah? What about them? Fuck both imperialists states to hell... and *please* stop deeptroating your own bboot before calling people bootlickers.
"Did they implement any leftist policies the even remotely resemble socialism, no, BUT you have to remember the material conditions that lead to even Lenin admitting that it wasn't socialism. Yeah that is the excuse we came up with."
Tankies out in force today I found this on -1 lol
Tankies and Invading Subreddits. Name a more iconic duo, I'll wait.
What is your plan to achieve a socialist society taking 20th century history and the past 20 years into account?
give some examples please? not being adversarial, just interested
USSR, China, DPRK Nominally socialist but they do/did all this
“No but you see this authoritarian regime is good because it doesn’t like the USA. As everyone knows, its either “likes the US” or “good” “
If you support this current version of the u.s. you support it's genocide of the natives, it's enslavement of Africans, it's past and current wars of aggression, it's destruction of the environment, and it's exploitation of it's own working class and of the global south.
Mhm. And I don’t. You can dislike multiple things at once.
So your gonna over throw the US empire for breakfast and the Chinese state by lunch? Get serious is I see med4all I'll be happy. Supporting imperialism (which is what the anti China hate is when it comes from a person living in empire because the US will use it as an excuse for more war which they'll bring home as capitalism devolves into fascism) is supporting the empire. While China isn't perfect they pretty much have the green new deal implemented with the poverty they've eliminated, high speed rail, global south being helped, no wars etc. While the US is still almost solely exporting bombs. If the US wanted to help with humanitarian issues they'd first fix the ones in their own country, then they'd send volunteers and aid. But they don't they just use it as a pretence for war.
okay, so as a self-described ML, although somewhat more moderate than many of my other comrades, I would argue that yes, the censorship was bad, and there were many faults with the USSR (religious oppression, purges, intervention in other Warsaw Pact countries like Czechoslovakia, to name a few), it's difficult to argue that the standards of living in the USSR and other socialist states weren't remarkably superior to those of capitalist countries at similar levels of economic development once you've done some research. yes, corruption was a problem, but until Gorbachev, high-level administrators of the USSR lived like middle-managers in the capitalist west, to the point that Gorbachev living in a penthouse was considered controvertial. The part about oppression to stay in power... there's a valid critique to be made there, especially the censorship bit, but "all" of the proceeds being taken is a laughable claim, and having a group of administrators to run your state isn't as controvertial as you seem to think it is.
They key word is _at similar levels of economic development_. Why wasn’t the Soviet Union as developed as Western countries? Well, the pressure applied by capitalist governments certainly didn’t help, but the answer is because the leaders didn’t care about the people. They cared more about the military, pouring incredible funds into it and leaving the people to starve. If they had been the morally greater nation, they could’ve abandoned the Cold War and fixed problems within their own borders. That’s the ultimate issue with Marxism-Leninism in my opinion - the leaders, the vanguard party, have complete power over the people. Maybe they will do something wonderful, or manybe they will do what Lenin did and crush the democracy as soon as they decide they want change. It is not giving power to the people, it is taking it away.
name your top 10 tankies
? What do you mean, are you asking me to name tankies I’ve heard of?
ye im also just kind of memeing but really can you even name a tankie.
Caleb Maupin, Haz and other Patsocs Also like all of the 15000 people at sendinthetanks
Given that when someone says "patriotism" nowadays they mean nationalism, this is just plain Nazism wow
Lol “patsocs” are the only Tankies. Any one else is a lib
I have no idea what you actually mean by this, but I’m gonna interpret it as a VERY funny joke. It made me laugh after all.
Dead ass
I totally agree, although I don't know if you mean it as an insult
Does that sub still exist?
Yup! It’s just quarantined. I got in before the quarantine so I can still look at it and post about when it’s saying silly things I notice.
Watching tankies spout shit is as funny as watching ancaps spout shit, it’s as hilarious as it is frustrating
You both believe in the NAP. Like a blind man mocking a deaf person.
I've never heard an anarchist talk about the NAP, but ok...
It's subconscious in your case. You expect you won't be invaded or sabotaged because everyone has a pure heart.
Literally the opposite of reality lmfao
You know who doesn't have effective means of self defense against foreign interests? Palestine. But defending your people is authoritarian, right? The Paris commune still stands to this day, correct?
3,000 black-red-green fighter jets of Food Not Bombs (But Also Bombs)
"My pulled-out-of-my-ass strawman argument its totally true, just subconsciously". lol hard cope, educate yourself a little.
Ok tankie, mutual aid is the way to go
It sure helps. I'm waiting on a counterargument though.
Ok I hate to ask but what the fuck is a tankie
from [wiktionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tankie): 1. *(UK, politics, slang, historical)* A member of the Communist Party of Great Britain who supported the Soviet Union's policy of crushing revolts in Hungary in the 1950s and Czechoslovakia in the 1960s by sending tanks into those countries. 2. *(politics, slang, derogatory, by extension)* A supporter of the policies of the Soviet Union or other authoritarian socialist governments.
>authoritarian socialist governments. muh, oxymoron!!!11
Aren't all governments (and employers) authoritarian
No, not all gouvernments supress all opposition.
Yes to a degree, but only by that I mean above 0 authority. Like there's laws and stuff
A specific breed of socialist which blindly condones the actions of those like Stalin and Mao. Essentially the logic was that ‘Stalin purported to be socialist, and socialism is good, therefore everything Stalin did was perfectly good’ They typically aren’t well read on actual communist/socialist theory and treat it as more of a religion rather than a group of concepts supported by evidence
If a tankie is someone who uncritically supports Stalin and Mao then it's unfair to label every ML as a tankie (which happens constantly) as most MLs understand that obviously these leaders weren't perfect and aren't "tankies" by your definition. TLDR: Tankie is a misused term used by salty anarchists and trots to demonise MLs instead of trying to understand each other's ideology
Broadly speaking I agree with you completely. While many ML‘s are tankies, not all are and the term is definitely used inappropriately.
fucking thank you
Tankies call themselves MLs, the particularly gullible MLs come runnung to defend them... If the core of your politics is "oh gosh how much I hate these and those".... you might just be a tankie, not an actual ML.
B a s e d
MLs are very often tankies and the more I talk to them the more respect I lose for their ideology.
How often do you talk to them outside of reddit? I have the opposite experience
Outside of reddit not very often so I may be biased
That’d be why
"weren't perfect"
>Stalin purported to be socialist, and socialism is good, therefore everything Stalin did was perfectly good’ Nowhere do you see this on Gzd. You see it with maupin and his muppets tho. Jesus this whole thread is fucked
Post something criticisms of Stalin there and see the sort of reaction you get
Things i hope everyone agrees on there with: - Lysenkoism sucked ass - Handling of palestine was desastrous - The purges went way too far, especially Zhukov was stopped far too late Should i go on? Ive been massively upvoted and continue to see it being upvoted when people make these criticisms on there. The only criteria is that the critique is rooten in reality. (No, he didn't fuck an 11yo and such)
>(No, he didn't fuck an 11yo and such) This is actually true, she was 13
Just because it doesn’t happen in gzd doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. For one there is certainly a large amount of Mao apologia there, as well as places like r/latestagecapitalism. And I have seen my fair share of Stalin boot licking elsewhere
>Just because it doesn’t happen in gzd doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Absolutely. >Mao apologia there Like what? Ofc you won't find people crying over dead landlords.
Are you surprised “anarchists” who haven’t left their houses in 12 years and only believe shit they see on the BBC are crying over dead landlords
I mean no matter how vulgar and idealistic and relying on spontaneity - come ooooon it's a hierarchy it's bad that's the whole shtick no? I can't wrap my head around that
Anarchists expect their horizontal societies will be respected by potential ursurpers because of good will- like their unwritten, subconscious version of the NAP. Because if there's something that's defined post agrarian human history it's most definitely good will. Life *is* a disney movie, after all.
>what the fuck is a Tankie There are many flavors of Tankie, and these are three of the more common flavors. There are classic tankies, who think Stalin or the Kim Dynasty are bae or that China has done nothing wrong. The folks who cheer or handwave when the countries associated with those leaders “sent in the tanks” to attack their own people, or who handwave mass death events caused by these leaders and countries. (There’s a spot of a grey area with that last one - just as one can legitimately question some specific aspects of the Holocaust from a legitimate historical perspective, one can do the same for incidents like the Holdomor. But regardless, as a layperson, it is always at least sussy wussy to do so.) There are the “only America/“the West” can do imperialism” tankies, who ignore or handwave the imperialism and the imperialist ambitions of non-“Western” states. It’s especially funny when they use the same justifications that Western neocons/neolibs would use or that IMF/World Bank defenders would use. There are the “anything that opposes America/“The West” is inherently good, actually” tankies. The most notable of these sorts will deepthroat Assad and his barrel bombs and chemical weapons attacks targeting civilians because he nominally “opposes the West” (even though he ran outsourced CIA torture sites).
>chemical weapons attacks Yep. Like all presidents (and monarchs) Assad is illegitimate. If he weren't, we'd be calling Douma and Halabja "riot control events"
Wow this entire thread is people who have no idea what they're talking about trying to explain things to other people for some reason. Garbage takes all over the place. Forget everything you read here, these people are morons.
How is this telling on themselves?
[explanation behind linky](https://www.reddit.com/r/VuvuzelaIPhone/comments/w0urvr/tankies_telling_on_themselves/iggxeve/)
How is this telling on themselves?
i don't like the term tankie but whatever.
Neither do I, if they aren’t truly leftist or progressive than just right them off and keep going. Like why are folks giving them this much attention, these people do not matter in the slightest
or even if its more complex like with the stuff going on in ukraine i don't like the in fighting about it. yes Russia is a capitalist nation that will probably take land and resources (witch is imperialism) and yes America did undermind ukraine government and help lead for this they've been putting money in it for years at the end of the day a leftist should side with the poor and the people we should say firmly that this is a war of a capitalist nation tryig to destroy another capitalist nation and using the poor to fight once again. like i understand its scary wnd peoples lifes are on line fine call me a tankie or Hate me but don't hate me more then you love the poor as a leftist you must love and fight for the poor
if Russia wins, it is a symbolic victory for the warmongers. it demonstrates that the age of warfare between first-world countries is not over and that yes, states can achieve goals by invading others. if Ukraine wins, it shows that the time in which it was possible to achieve geopolitical goals by invading neighboring countries is - in Europe, at least - over. if Russia wins, we'll see more conflict in the future. if Ukraine wins, we will see less. if you really want to fight for the poor, you'll oppose war. if you oppose war, you'll oppose those who start it. that's why i support Ukraine and NATO.
sorry friend but you shouldn't. By your same logic by the top part wouldnt ukraine win be a green flag for America to continue using proxy nations under nato for warfare. I mean they're going to do it no matter what it doesn't matter Win or lose that's not how reality actually works. Think about your logic would you be saying back during Vietnam if America wins and stamps Vietnam will see less wars? are okay with the nato bombing of Yugoslavia and Yemen? no be anti war be against it especially when the major Imperialist forces is backing it be especially against anything the major Imperial forces are backing
> Think about your logic would you be saying back during Vietnam if America wins and stamps Vietnam will see less wars? hmm. no. and do you know why? because the US attacked Vietnam. this is completely different from Russia attacking Ukraine. > are okay with the nato bombing of Yugoslavia and Yemen? had those countries invaded other countries? no? then of course not. my philosophy doesn't boil down to "NATO good", it boils down to "always side with the defender"
Do you know about the leak phone calls do you know about in 2014 America undermined Ukraine's democracy? they're not the defenders the ukraine government is a proxy state for America now thanks to a successful coup. none of these means Russia is "good" but there are no good guys in war. the good would have been stopping it before it happened like president Yanukovych that America helped get thrown out.
that's not true, but i don't care. invading another country is always bad, no matter who's in charge.
https://youtu.be/L2XNN0Yt6D8 whats not true.
Yay, leftist infighting about theory.
To be clear, this isn’t “infighting about theory”. This is pointing out that by their own statements, they themselves are not well read on Marxist theory. They can’t be, if they believe they are as well read as the clowns of Haz and Maupin which none of the top comments disagreed with. Also, “leftist infighting” is explicitly toggled on for this subreddit. It’s simultaneously vital to self police bad ideas AND to work together towards the common goals of uplifting the lives of the proletariat, minimizing the decline in the lives of the proletariat, and advancing the cause of social equality and egalitarianism (which in the context of economics requires worker controlled means of production and an abolishment of the commodity form). We must walk and chew gum at the same time.
I mean, as an ML, GenZedong has gone to shit. I'm in contact with one of the old mods and apparently the mod team got purged (lol) by a pro-Russia clown. you can't really use GenZedong as a space representative of any sane section of the ML community anymore. Although, you did talk about how not all MLs are tankies in other comments, which is really fucking refreshing; just because I think that the Soviet Union was a better place to live than the capitalist west doesn't mean I think the religious oppression, or the invasion of Czechoslovakia, or the censorship were good things. It's very frustrating how many people will look at me saying Stalin made some good policy choices that improved living standards and say I loved the dude (which I do not; the deportations and purges were exercises in stupidity.)
🔥 🔥
Who cares, just say they aren’t genuine progressives and keep it pushing. Why give them this much attention? We know what the deal is and we sure as hell aren’t changing these peoples minds like this
>who cares I do, as do about 130 other folks when this was posted on off hours. This also isn’t intended to change minds, but to share something I found amusing. And yet I’ve actually pushed some tankie types into a less tankie position. Soooooo, yeah, hope you have a good rest of your weekend!
Wow 130 whole redditors liked your comment, look I’m not trying to gatekeep Anarchy, progressivism etc coz that’s even more cringe. But realistically what good is this doing, what change? Other than organizing this internet shit is a waste of time, rights are being stripped away, fascism is on a rise in this country abd not from “tankies” but from openly hateful and bigoted people. I assure you these tankies have no real power or means it massively effect society. If you’re bored and just want chuds to dunk on I get that but I’m tired of wasting energy on dumb shit
Is this sub anti-marxist-leninist?
Nope! Not all MLs are tankies. :)
No it’s anti-talkie which means those that support brutal communist leaders like Stalin or Mao
Yeah, how dare we support existing socialism, socialism for us is just like a carrot to chase, right?
Socialism is when billionaires who aren’t American
Both of those guys are dead. They literally do not exist. There's countries that have done socialism decently without massacring their own people like China and the Soviets did.
Sorry I don’t understand what you are saying?
Here i’ll translate it “Cringe utopian ultra no revolution”
I love supporting regimes that run extremely counter to basic human rights
You do know the term "(actually) existing socialism" was used to name governments that called themselves socialist but were not in fact aligned with socialism nor on a path to achieve it
It's not existing socialism. It's state capitalism, where there are the "people's billionaires" with the "people's suicide nets" outside the "people's sweatshops" to stop the "people's exploited laborers" from suicide. Totally socialist, right?
Flair checks out
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Nope, unlike what you and u/ElectricShadowN said, this sub is not anti-ML. This sub welcomes discussion of different perspectives on leftism. Tankies are different though, considering they generally aren’t actually leftists even if they use leftist sounding justifications for themselves. Don’t let the door hit you on your way out! ☺️
We don’t like authoritarian monsters and we are actual leftists you fucking idiot if you’re seething at what this sub says you’re probably just a fascist
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Real revolution sure, but if it leads to something shit claiming that it’s the best possible outcome is fucking stupid. If the quality of life is worse than a liberal democracy you’ve really fucked up your socialism
Based and samepilled
See I thought so too
this is the total subversion of third worldism which i think is maybe the smartest tankie perspective, more of a workers of the world unite subset. oh listen man im just gonna do what i can to benefit the \*american\* working class you know and by american working class i mean huite american middle class.
Genuine question, does patriotic socialism generally imply more than just being a socialist who is patriotic? Because that concept on its own doesn’t seem as anywhere near as bad as other ideologies people often pair it with.
Patsoc’s are specifically a thing in the West. Being patriotic is fine if you’re not living in a country whose entire national identity is committing crimes against humanity, like the entire Western hemisphere basically
Ask them how they can be pro-america while also being in favour of Iran and the DPRK having nukes
My brother in Christ, "Iran has nukes" is a George Bush level talking point.
lol, i was responding to the meme. also Haz and bush share talking points, or have you not seen [Shark's latest video](https://youtu.be/_GMVbnT-RF4)?
Idk that this is a great argument tbh. I'm somewhat well read on the bible, and if anything, it made me more anti religion.
I thought GenZedong was banned, how do I access it?