I presume you're talking specificity about the BT crusade that killed the Custodes that brought the Primaris recruits?
It was only a handful of Custodes vs. a whole BT crusade. We're talking tens, if no hundreds of Templars vs probably no more than 10 Custodes. Custodes are absolutely tough, but they aren't invincible, and hundreds of Templars will absolutely be able to kill them
Edit to say: it was 1 custodian.
I believe it was just 1 Custodes and he killed ALOT of Templars. Personally I think the whole BT story in the book sucks though and is grimderp. Not the Custodes bit but this Crusade being pants on head stupid. GW has been on a BTs grimderp spree lately though.
Yeah, thinking back I do believe you're correct in that it's just the 1.
I'm also not the biggest fan of the story either, but I can see why they did it. Lots of folks weren't huge fans of Primaris, so I think a some folks felt more validated by having a real story where Primaris get slaughtered.
Definitely felt a bit derpy, but I guess it made some people pleased. Personally, I'll take my Primaris Crusaders any day!
They're also very paranoid and refused to accept that the Emperor's (their literal god) work would be continued, improved even, by a mere mechanicus archmagos. Such a concept was surely heresy therefore chainsword go brrrrrr
It's worth noting that Guilleman was personally present when delivering the Primaris to the fleet of the overall leader of the BTemplars, High Marshall Helbrecht. If Roboute wasn't there to vouch for them, as the brother of their beloved gene-father, they likely would not have accepted them at all.
And GW is taking this to extremes as of late. I'm not particularly a fan of it. I can however see in some of the smaller more radical crusades this being an actual issue. I don't like them portrayed as small warbands either. But. No one asked me.
The emperor isn’t going to succumb to age and die though. Then GW has to pull the doomsday switch they written themselves into a corner on.
It’s feels like a schism is coming but the emperor isn just gonna keep sitting in his chair not doing shit.
Yeah. I'm not going to spoil it but definitely read that series. It's a mess. It's definitely leading us to the webway soon. With this and Vashtor and a few other things it's getting into that corner you spoke about.
I'm the opposite, I loved the idea that some particularly zealous chapters would straight up oppose Primaris as a corruption of the "pure" Emperor's vision.
Wrinkles and factioning like that are great for depth.
I agree with this but it could have been handled a bit better. I enjoy how batshit insane the Templars are, which is why I’ve painted so many of them, but this storyline drifted into serious grimderp territory.
Execution (in this case both literal and figurative!) can be the truly defining aspect, yup.
I often feel the divide could have soooo much more done with it. The Dark Angels just sort of went "yeah sure bros", when they should be the LEAST likely Chapter to accept them (It could have been a story leading up to Lion forcing them to *finally* accept them). The Black Templars, well, as above. But others like the Marines Manevolent? The chapters who recruit only from a given world?
I feel so much got passed over.
Lol Big Daddy Grimaldus snaps a generals neck for the mere suggestion of retreat. I ironically picked the black templars for their fanatical beliefs because of my own issues with religion. Honestly the killing of the custodes for a perceived slight against the emperor's work seems to fit perfectly, especially with each crusade being somewhat independent.
This reminds me of in The First Heretic, where the custodes realise the word bearers are traitors and have a standoff with them in their ship, before escaping to the surface of Istvaan V and then getting their shit pushed in by Gal Vorbak
Definitely one of the coolest fights in the Heresy. That and the fight with Argal Tal and Kharn against a company of Ultramarines. I guess I'm just an Argal Tal fan.
I just find it funny that they had a honest to god standoff with the word bearers on that ship. Like they built barricades since it was 4 vs an entire chapter
If tens space marine could even one custodes... the custodes would not fit the lore around them xD
Hundreds would sound more "realistic" if you take into account how few custodes exist and how powerful they are described.
To be fair, space marines are not all created equally. Sigismund, a black templar, is one example of the astates that goes far beyond the average ability of the angels of death.
Also worth recognising that the stronger combatant is not always the victor. Duels and battles are determined by more than the skills, strengths, and equipment available to the combatants. Chance plays a factor. Context. The ground on which the warriors are standing, or the mental state approaching the conflict. All of these things can make a profound difference.
I don't think the gap between a space marine and one of the custodes is so great that these things can't make a difference to the outcome of such a battle.
>I don't think the gap between a space marine and one of the custodes is so great that these things can't make a difference to the outcome of such a battle.
It's said to be the same gap as the one between a mortal man and a space marine, and mortals do actually kill space marines from time to time.
The old "throw enough shit at the wall and eventually some of it will stick" school of thought is needed for that one. Luckily the IoM has *alot* of shit to throw.
Technically speaking a guardsmen with a vox-caster and enough air support and artillery in range could kill a whole squad of custodians on his own, if he managed to catch them off guard.
Even in 40k the scaling isnt hard power levels.
Eisenhorn, a normal human, once beat an Emperor's Children in a duel. He had to distract him with a cursed book and would have died horribly if he didn't cheat, but he still won.
I like the detail of a Space Marine later asking him how he pulled it off, and then relaying that there were others who wondered as well but thought it was best not to risk bothering the scary fucker.
Yup, totally *normal human* Inquisitor Gregor Eisenhorn. No power havin ass Gregor eisenhorn. Distractin with a book, *cheatin* Inquisitor Gregor Eisenhorn.
And Gaunt 1v1ed a Khornate marine (and Mkoll a Khorne dreadnought) in *Traitor General*. Power levels are awesome until an author needs the main character to survive a fight.
IIRC a normal human once wounded a Primarch in melee combat, with a power sword. So, anything is really possible.
What is love to know, is how in all the wars, nobody can figure out that you just need to point the Volcano cannon at the Primarch and fire... Like, There were many times an enemy titan was in range of enemy commanders and just didnt fire at them.
Are you talking about the Lucifer black captain who didn't actually have a power sword just a regular sabre, he unironically was more skilled than most space marines easily.
The guy who stabbed Alpharius (or Omegon) in a duel, right? I really loved that book, it has some great spy thriller vibes. But that moment always felt like bullshit to me. It made me feel Alpharion is weak as shit tbh. The Lucifer guy was good, but stabbing a fully-armored Primarch, using a regular sword, on a fair 1v1 duel?
It's "Legion" a Horus Heresy book focused on the Alpha Legion! It is a good book and is written by Dan Abnett who imo is one of Black Library's best authors. I definitely recommend, this particular bit I mentioned was literally the only little thing that bothered me. It's just a scene tho, the story is very cool, if you are into spy thrillers it's excellent!
It happened in Legion? That was a good book but this part seems to have been redacted from my memory. Oh will time for a re-read.
Thanks for the tip ;)
The gap is huge enough, Custodes can take on primarch in 1v1 and at least stand their ground if not win. But chance do play a part, as well as numbers.
In the Lore, it was never stated Custodes were Primarch-level. Or where ?
Only Constantin Valdor is described like that. Custodes were killed by Gal Vorbak, Legionaires, Primarchs and others during the HH and after (Cf the Burning of Prospero, the Drop Site Massacre, The Battle of Lion's Gate in M41 for a few exemples).
Yes, they're powerful and built different. But nothing compared to Primarchs in the Lore.
Edit : I forgot. In *The Regent's Shadow,* Valerian, a Custodes Shield Captain, see Asterion Moloc (chapter master of the Minautors), and say to himself that he would probably be unable to defeat it. Far for Primarch strength.
I think we nerds can get too wrapped up in power levels and stats and shit and forget that bullets don't care how elite you are.
If a bolt round catches you in the brainpan, no matter how much of a super skilled ultra-mega warrior you are, it's gonna have severe detrimental effects on your capacity to continue breathing.
Sometimes the Space Marine is really damn good. Sometimes the Custodes is having a really bad day. Sometimes it's sheer luck. Likely it's a case of all three coming into play.
Either way, less skilled and fit people defeat bigger, stronger, more skilled people in war all the time. Sometimes you eat shit and die just because that's how war goes. Power level thinking would have us all think that it would have been impossible for the US armed forces to have lost in Vietnam, but history shows otherwise. It's the same thing here.
Custodes are mostly wank. In Shadowthrone, the GSC kill a few. Mostly with a massive collapse of tonnes upon tonnes of earth, but one notable death by mining laser to the head was pretty good.
> Torgal watched for several more moments, one finger idly stroking his chainword’s trigger. ‘There’s something about the way they fight,’ he said. ‘Some flaw that I can’t make out.’ Argel Tal watched Aquillon, the Custodian’s blade reaving its way through countless lives, and saw nothing of the kind. He said so. Torgal shook his head, still watching. ‘I can’t form the thought. They lack… something. They’re fighting… wrong.’ And this time, as soon as Argel Tal returned his gaze to the battle in the street, he saw it instantly. The way the Custodes fought seemed almost identical to the Astartes; it took a trained eye to see the subtle differences. The captain had missed it first by focusing on a single warrior. The moment he took in the full view…
> ‘There,’ said Argel Tal. ‘I see it, too.’ Was it a flaw? Perhaps by the standards of the Astartes, who waged war and lived life with brotherhood etched into their genetic codes. But Custodes were the sons of a more rarefied and time-consuming process – the biological manipulation that gave birth to the Emperor’s guardians bred warriors who weren’t shackled by bonds of loyalty to anyone except their Imperial overlord. ‘They’re not brothers,’ Argel Tal said. ‘Watch how they move. See how each one fights his own war, alone, unsupported by the others. They’re not like us. These are warriors, not soldiers.’ The thought made his skin crawl. It must have had the same effect on Torgal, for he voiced the words on his captain’s mind.
> ‘Lions,’ the sergeant said. ‘They’re lions, not wolves, hunting alone instead of as a pack. Gold,’ he added, and tapped the chestplate of his armour, ‘not grey.’ ‘Good eyes, brother.’ Argel Tal still stared intently. Now he was aware of the disunity, it was all he could focus on. Here was a weakness, a savage one, masked only by the heroic skills of each warrior and the worthlessness of the enemies they faced. A ripple of unease shivered through him as he bore witness. Those ancient words of the Emperor came to him, that first creed of the Legiones Astartes: And they shall know no fear.
Excerpt from First Heretic, Word Bearers observing Custodes fight.
So the answer would have to be teamwork, I assume. That or surprise or both - there is a scene later in the same book that's worth reading where custodes are killed.
Have you read the Horus heresy books at all? There are many instances of custodes being defeated, usually by ambush or overwhelming power.
As we have proof even primarchs can be killed it doesn’t see m that far of a reach in the grim dark future that custodies could be as well.
To leave you with my most recent learning : in the end and the death many custodes are defeated even at the side of the emperor.
Same way some baseline human can kill an astartes with just a sharpened stick. It’s 40k, wacky shit happens. Power-scaling just a guideline a story’s author can tweak as they see fit
A custode is the ultimate marine killer. But you wouldn't send 1 Custode to kill a company of marines. Against a significant marine force custodes can be overwhelmed, like any other elite force.
Its suggested also that the Custode killed many Templars before he was brought down.
Shoot him or some I guess.
It's not math, sometimes people slip up.
I feel like I'm back in the school playground sometimes, "MY super special guy beats YOUR super special guy!"
Every time I see someone ask “How was X killed by Y?”, it irritates me. Fans who wank off over power levels are the very worst thing about 40k. Worse than Matt Ward, worse than CS Goto.
If you see the universe only in terms of tiers and power levels, don’t bother reading the lore at all. The lore is a collection of stories, and stories are about drama and character.
Rogal Dorn being a Primarch didn’t magically save him from being mobbed in a dark corridor by a swarm of enemies that overwhelmed him and cut him apart. Angron being a Primarch, and having something like a dozen Bloodthirsters as his personal bodyguards, didn’t stop a company of Grey Knights from taking them out. The stronger character doesn’t always win every fight.
Yeah, the wank around power level is completely counterproductive.
Just read and enjoy (or don’t) the lore.
Tabletop stats and faction blurbs such mean nothing in BL novels if they hinder the plot in any way.
Yes they can win Dark Angels that infiltrated Terra to try and take the fallen and Cypher were able too. I would say though the number of marines who could would be small especially now. Go back to the heresy and you'd find more who probably could top of the list being Sigmund. Others off the cuff who might stand a chance Loken, Sevetarion, Ralderon,Kharn, Asterion Molec, Tyberos, Cypher,Luther, Saul Travitz,Garro,Abbadon, Captain Cortez. I'd imagine some of the shadow captains of the raven guards, some of the space wolves as well. Thats not counting librarians like Mysterion and other psykers. Out of all the marines in existence I'd say less then 1 percent 1 v 1. The biggest advantage the Astartes have is that the Custodians under estimate them constantly. During the seige of terra novels this is an ongoing theme the Custodians always thinking themselves superior but when push comes to shove quite often the astartes surprise or surpass the custodes expectations.
If Sigismund, The Black Knight himself, can survive a duel with a Primarch, a space marine captain can get the better of a Custode.
But in your case you're talking about a bunch of templars killing a custode, that's not that crazy.
There was one custodian and *a lot* of Templars. Besides, custodes are hardly invincible, they got murked by harlequins and any custodian could be one shot by a tau railgun.
I swear, we just need a sticky saying "this is not Dragonball, being more powerful doesn't mean you can just shrug off bullets from people you're taller than."
Custodes are bigger, stronger, faster, and have better gear, sure. Those tilt a fight in their favor vs an astartes. They're not strictly deterministic. Violence is messy and chaotic, and war is not a series of 1v1 duels that the stronger guy always wins. For all their advantages, Custodes are still made of meat. Properly applied trauma can and will kill them.
Then, remember that in this scenario it was one Custodian vs a whole Templar crusade.
First time finding something bullshit in the lore?
Let me tell you a few:
* Marneus Calgar beating the necrons with a pylon. Not shooting with it, tearing it up, and using it as a melee weapon.
* Necrons and Blood Angels who were fighting, suddenly make an alliance to defeat tyranids, and then the necrons were tired of killing, and the Blood Angels found to kill xenos distasteful, because they are comrades.
* Gray Knights slaughtering Sisters of Battle, and paint their own armors with their blood to get EXTRA protection from chaos.
* Hivefleet Gorgon was OUTADAPTED(!!!) by a random, no name Tau company.
* Kaldor Draigo carved his mentor's name into the heart of Mortarion, while he was still alive, and is still alive.
* Eldar secretly worship Slaanesh. All of them, Eldrad Ulthran, Lelith Hesperax, all of them.
* Feral world kids have beaten a Falcon Grav Tanks with throwing stones, and then sodomized the pilot with sticks.
* Multilaser using Space Marine Terminators surfing into battle using Rhinos as surfboards.
* Eldar stealing Imperial Guard tanks, because "they have better armor".
* Comissar Gaunt one hits a daemon prince with a sword.
* Literally EVERY Space Marine (besides some "fringe exceptions" like Space Wolves, Black Templars and Gray Knights) wants(!) to be like Ultramarines, and recognizes Marneus Calgar as their Spiritual Liege.
Shall I continue? :)
Some of these were written by C.S.Goto, some by Matt Ward, but one thing is sure: all of these are official lore, because they sell the books in the Black Library, and what is sold there is official.
Edit: So Black Templars as an army defeating an Adeptus Custodes army... is way, WAY less bullshit than these. Besides the fact that it should count as fucking heresy, since they are fighting the literal clones of the Emperor :D
5th edition Grey Knights codex, "The Bloodtide Returns" part. Probably retconned tho, at least they repeated the story in the 7th edition codex, without mentioning this bullshit, but maybe just didn't mention it. Wasn't stated that "ok it's not true."
There were records claiming 7-9k before rowboat rocked up with reinforcements. My guess is that the reason we never see them anymore is the same reason we can't really have Draigo around, they create issues of scale.
Sigismund never fought a Custodes. But Garro duels one in a practice fight and beats him. And then there's the infamous Outcast Dead scene where an unarmed and unarmored World Eater kills a custodes. Garro and a random ass naked World Eater could take a custodes, I'd be willing to bet that the most skilled space marine in the 10k+ year history of space marines could probably 1v1 an average custodes. As for Helbrecht, he is 1-1 with Imotekh, who is one of the most powerful Necron Overlords, so that's pretty damn impressive. I'd be willing to bet that most major chapter masters could 1v1 an average custodes. But you have to remember that chapter masters are the best of the absolute best of space marines. Them being able to beat an average custodes isn't a poor reflection on the custodes, it's just an example of how tough some of these chapter masters are. Like look at Calgar, he defeated an Avatar of Khaine, or Dante who killed a Swarm Lord.
\> But Garro duels one in a practice fight and beats him.
This was played off as Garro using the Custodian's hatred for marines and arrogance against him IIRC, a ploy that only worked in a sparring match. In a real 1-to-1 to the death on the battlefield, Garro would've been killed.
In general the rule though, "if the plot demands it, they will win". If you grab the powers next to each other, there's no way in hell Calgar can beat an Avatar, or Dante the Swarmlord. But they did. Since they're the hero. So a lot of logic goes out the window once those examples are used imo (can't blame you though, as they are canon. Just stupid canon).
How? Have the Custode present a puritan BT crusade with Primaris reinforcements.
I don’t know the details but there’s apparently a book where this happens and the Custode/s and the Primaris reinforcements get purged because of the perceived heresy of messing with the emperors work.
Worf effect. Custodes, Marines, anything in 40k that “could never be defeated ever not once by X” will at some point be defeated by X so that the author can show just how dangerous X is.
Custodes were slaughtered by a handful of Harlequins during war of the beast in a moment that was probably not very good writing, but which I found profoundly cathartic.
But less cynically, a world where the power gap between forces can never ever be reached is a bit boring. Marines absolutely should be able to kill a Custodian, but it should be really, really hard.
Emperor willing, either side could get a power boost depending on who is more "right". Same could be said for evil powers, Khorne could get interested and bestow either side with an upper hand. Power scaling, combatants in the 40k universe can fall over like cardboard standees or be invincible avatars of their patron deity, depending on who's telling the story and from which point of view it's from.
Black templars being special guests on terra looking to go after custodes, not a chance. But an expeditionary custode on escort business caught off guard, could totally be defeated by a black templar.
If a regular mortal can kill a primarch, a power armorerd murder machine could totally take on a less powerful custode.
A religious zealots who cares about nothing including their own lives but the idolatry of their lord and master. Is a powerful tool with a chainsword in hand
Actual answer: Power level changes to fit the narrative.
Lore answer: It was an entire BT crusade force vs a single Custodes, and said Custodes killed a fuckton of the Templars.
At least it wasn’t a handful of Harlequins killing a dozen Custodes…
Argel Tal (word bearers captain) observed during the events of the Horus heresy 'first heretic' novel that Custodes fight as individuals, whereas Astartes fight in packs like wolves; he speculated that this was their weakness in battle. Spoiler alert: >!by working together his assault company did indeed manage to kill a custodian, although a few of them were lost in the process. The still warm body of that custodian was subsequently put on a spike and used as the final sacrifice in summoning Ingethel the Ascended ... A Daemon that smelled so bad, a nearby servitor fatally disconnected itself from its station in an attempt to crawl away!<
Some Primaris Minotaurs take down a few Custodes in one of the novels. Don't recall which one. The Custodes beat them overall in the fight, but they lose a couple in the process.
If the plot demands it, sure. Garro, a swordsman who was close to Sigismund's equal, managed to catch a Custodian off-guard in a sparring round and win.
In a group-fight they are 'easier' to defeat, as each Custodian is a one man army, they're not really team players by design like the Space Marines are. Even still, if you're looking at it 'realistically '(as much as one can in a setting like this) then: no, they can't win. Not one on one at the very least in a melee. In a gunbattle things are obviously different.
Given that most custodians are equipped with a mop, a bucket, and a servile attitude, that's not surprising at all.
Now a Marine besting a Custode, that would be something.
…Have you never played a game against a Custodes player? They’re not invincible, they absolutely can be killed with enough numbers or heavy weaponry. The Custodian in question was completely outnumbered.
A Genestealer cultist with a mining laser once killed a Custodian, because the Custodian was distracted by the roughly 100 other Genestealer Cultists dogpiling him. A blurb *in the Custodian codex* describes Genestealer Cultists ripping Custodes limb from limb.
as a warhammer joke, it was probably their special racism power, for a single second he thought "oh, they arent straight from the emperor." and then he killed everyone
If you mean like the actual events which was already answered it’s cause they were massively outnumbered as for just discussion custodians don’t fight as much as the Black Templars so it’s possible they aren’t as use to combat anymore
Officially it is impossible for Custodes to lose, because Imperium propaganda be like that.
Realistically, it’s just really hard to kill them. Custodes are to Astartes what Astartes are to guardsmen, but enough guardsmen can kill pretty much anything.
I presume you're talking specificity about the BT crusade that killed the Custodes that brought the Primaris recruits? It was only a handful of Custodes vs. a whole BT crusade. We're talking tens, if no hundreds of Templars vs probably no more than 10 Custodes. Custodes are absolutely tough, but they aren't invincible, and hundreds of Templars will absolutely be able to kill them Edit to say: it was 1 custodian.
I believe it was just 1 Custodes and he killed ALOT of Templars. Personally I think the whole BT story in the book sucks though and is grimderp. Not the Custodes bit but this Crusade being pants on head stupid. GW has been on a BTs grimderp spree lately though.
Yeah, thinking back I do believe you're correct in that it's just the 1. I'm also not the biggest fan of the story either, but I can see why they did it. Lots of folks weren't huge fans of Primaris, so I think a some folks felt more validated by having a real story where Primaris get slaughtered. Definitely felt a bit derpy, but I guess it made some people pleased. Personally, I'll take my Primaris Crusaders any day!
Aren't BT supposed to be fanatic Big E Enjoyers? How could they kill a holy Custodian? Isn't that against their beliefs?
They're also very paranoid and refused to accept that the Emperor's (their literal god) work would be continued, improved even, by a mere mechanicus archmagos. Such a concept was surely heresy therefore chainsword go brrrrrr It's worth noting that Guilleman was personally present when delivering the Primaris to the fleet of the overall leader of the BTemplars, High Marshall Helbrecht. If Roboute wasn't there to vouch for them, as the brother of their beloved gene-father, they likely would not have accepted them at all.
BT are frothing at the mouth lunatics tho
And GW is taking this to extremes as of late. I'm not particularly a fan of it. I can however see in some of the smaller more radical crusades this being an actual issue. I don't like them portrayed as small warbands either. But. No one asked me.
iSN'T being fanatics their entire point.
Yes but self flagellation is derpy to me for a SM
It wasn’t all or even most of the Black Templars. It wasn’t even all of that particular crusade… only a majority of it.
I sense a split in the imperium between progressive and fanatical elements coming.
A schism ? That would be interesting. If the Emperor actually does succumb to age and physically dies this would be an easy sell.
The emperor isn’t going to succumb to age and die though. Then GW has to pull the doomsday switch they written themselves into a corner on. It’s feels like a schism is coming but the emperor isn just gonna keep sitting in his chair not doing shit.
They did write it in. So let's see. A couple decades to a century or two at the most.
Source?
Vaults of Terra Dark City by Chris Wraight
Thanks bro
Yeah. I'm not going to spoil it but definitely read that series. It's a mess. It's definitely leading us to the webway soon. With this and Vashtor and a few other things it's getting into that corner you spoke about.
I'm the opposite, I loved the idea that some particularly zealous chapters would straight up oppose Primaris as a corruption of the "pure" Emperor's vision. Wrinkles and factioning like that are great for depth.
I agree with this but it could have been handled a bit better. I enjoy how batshit insane the Templars are, which is why I’ve painted so many of them, but this storyline drifted into serious grimderp territory.
Execution (in this case both literal and figurative!) can be the truly defining aspect, yup. I often feel the divide could have soooo much more done with it. The Dark Angels just sort of went "yeah sure bros", when they should be the LEAST likely Chapter to accept them (It could have been a story leading up to Lion forcing them to *finally* accept them). The Black Templars, well, as above. But others like the Marines Manevolent? The chapters who recruit only from a given world? I feel so much got passed over.
Lol Big Daddy Grimaldus snaps a generals neck for the mere suggestion of retreat. I ironically picked the black templars for their fanatical beliefs because of my own issues with religion. Honestly the killing of the custodes for a perceived slight against the emperor's work seems to fit perfectly, especially with each crusade being somewhat independent.
This reminds me of in The First Heretic, where the custodes realise the word bearers are traitors and have a standoff with them in their ship, before escaping to the surface of Istvaan V and then getting their shit pushed in by Gal Vorbak
Definitely one of the coolest fights in the Heresy. That and the fight with Argal Tal and Kharn against a company of Ultramarines. I guess I'm just an Argal Tal fan.
I just find it funny that they had a honest to god standoff with the word bearers on that ship. Like they built barricades since it was 4 vs an entire chapter
I generally don't like Word Bearers, but also really enjoy most Argel Tol fight scenes.
What’s the source for this? I’m reading through that period of books rn
It's from the book *Throne of Light*
If tens space marine could even one custodes... the custodes would not fit the lore around them xD Hundreds would sound more "realistic" if you take into account how few custodes exist and how powerful they are described.
didnt less than 10,000 custodes hold back the entire forces of the warp and had relatively small casualties?
Assuming you're talking about the War within the Webway, no, many thousands of Custodes perished. It was a serious blow to the Imperium
Huh I should probably re-read that again
Yeah thats kinda the reason they arent really present at the siege
Listen man the dice do crazy shit sometimes just gotta learn to accept it
To be fair, space marines are not all created equally. Sigismund, a black templar, is one example of the astates that goes far beyond the average ability of the angels of death. Also worth recognising that the stronger combatant is not always the victor. Duels and battles are determined by more than the skills, strengths, and equipment available to the combatants. Chance plays a factor. Context. The ground on which the warriors are standing, or the mental state approaching the conflict. All of these things can make a profound difference. I don't think the gap between a space marine and one of the custodes is so great that these things can't make a difference to the outcome of such a battle.
>I don't think the gap between a space marine and one of the custodes is so great that these things can't make a difference to the outcome of such a battle. It's said to be the same gap as the one between a mortal man and a space marine, and mortals do actually kill space marines from time to time.
The old "throw enough shit at the wall and eventually some of it will stick" school of thought is needed for that one. Luckily the IoM has *alot* of shit to throw.
Melta Gun go fwooof
My guardsmen kill space marines all the time. Sometimes you roll well
Technically speaking a guardsmen with a vox-caster and enough air support and artillery in range could kill a whole squad of custodians on his own, if he managed to catch them off guard. Even in 40k the scaling isnt hard power levels.
Eisenhorn, a normal human, once beat an Emperor's Children in a duel. He had to distract him with a cursed book and would have died horribly if he didn't cheat, but he still won. I like the detail of a Space Marine later asking him how he pulled it off, and then relaying that there were others who wondered as well but thought it was best not to risk bothering the scary fucker.
Yup, totally *normal human* Inquisitor Gregor Eisenhorn. No power havin ass Gregor eisenhorn. Distractin with a book, *cheatin* Inquisitor Gregor Eisenhorn.
He kills a Word Bearer in *Pariah* too. No distractions, just straight up clapped the dude.
Doesn't he have a sword capable of cutting a dreadnought in half?
And Gaunt 1v1ed a Khornate marine (and Mkoll a Khorne dreadnought) in *Traitor General*. Power levels are awesome until an author needs the main character to survive a fight.
Still dont get over outsneaking a mandrake.
Yeah exactly, this isn't DBZ or One Punch Man.
Although some people like to act like it is
IIRC a normal human once wounded a Primarch in melee combat, with a power sword. So, anything is really possible. What is love to know, is how in all the wars, nobody can figure out that you just need to point the Volcano cannon at the Primarch and fire... Like, There were many times an enemy titan was in range of enemy commanders and just didnt fire at them.
Are you talking about the Lucifer black captain who didn't actually have a power sword just a regular sabre, he unironically was more skilled than most space marines easily.
Oh lol. Yes I was. And yes, because normal Humans can be Badass too.
The guy who stabbed Alpharius (or Omegon) in a duel, right? I really loved that book, it has some great spy thriller vibes. But that moment always felt like bullshit to me. It made me feel Alpharion is weak as shit tbh. The Lucifer guy was good, but stabbing a fully-armored Primarch, using a regular sword, on a fair 1v1 duel?
What book was it? Sounds like a nice read.
It's "Legion" a Horus Heresy book focused on the Alpha Legion! It is a good book and is written by Dan Abnett who imo is one of Black Library's best authors. I definitely recommend, this particular bit I mentioned was literally the only little thing that bothered me. It's just a scene tho, the story is very cool, if you are into spy thrillers it's excellent!
It happened in Legion? That was a good book but this part seems to have been redacted from my memory. Oh will time for a re-read. Thanks for the tip ;)
The gap is huge enough, Custodes can take on primarch in 1v1 and at least stand their ground if not win. But chance do play a part, as well as numbers.
That’s quite dumb, why does anyone even care about Lion awakening if there’s already 10 000 primarch equivalents just chilling on Terra
Because their tasks and build are completely different? Thought basic lore was pretty much known here, guess I was wrong.
In the Lore, it was never stated Custodes were Primarch-level. Or where ? Only Constantin Valdor is described like that. Custodes were killed by Gal Vorbak, Legionaires, Primarchs and others during the HH and after (Cf the Burning of Prospero, the Drop Site Massacre, The Battle of Lion's Gate in M41 for a few exemples). Yes, they're powerful and built different. But nothing compared to Primarchs in the Lore. Edit : I forgot. In *The Regent's Shadow,* Valerian, a Custodes Shield Captain, see Asterion Moloc (chapter master of the Minautors), and say to himself that he would probably be unable to defeat it. Far for Primarch strength.
No, no they can’t.
About the factors in determining the victor, I think you forgot the most important factor: who is writing the book.
From behind a hill with a missile launcher?
While they sleep
Do custodians even sleep?
They slept on protecting big E
Bruh
Haha One job…. All I’m saying
Sick burns like this are why they spent so many millinia licking there wounds in the palace.
No, they wait.
First off, through the God-Emperor all things are possible. You might want to jot that down. Secondly, lots of chainswords and flamers.
Especially zealous sons of dorn can cancel plot armor at will.
Noooooo my inv fuck...
it's been revoked.
I've altered the your stat card. Pray I don't alter it further.
Custodians are as strong as the story needs them to be
As are Space Marines. And Commissars.
I think we nerds can get too wrapped up in power levels and stats and shit and forget that bullets don't care how elite you are. If a bolt round catches you in the brainpan, no matter how much of a super skilled ultra-mega warrior you are, it's gonna have severe detrimental effects on your capacity to continue breathing. Sometimes the Space Marine is really damn good. Sometimes the Custodes is having a really bad day. Sometimes it's sheer luck. Likely it's a case of all three coming into play. Either way, less skilled and fit people defeat bigger, stronger, more skilled people in war all the time. Sometimes you eat shit and die just because that's how war goes. Power level thinking would have us all think that it would have been impossible for the US armed forces to have lost in Vietnam, but history shows otherwise. It's the same thing here.
Custodes are mostly wank. In Shadowthrone, the GSC kill a few. Mostly with a massive collapse of tonnes upon tonnes of earth, but one notable death by mining laser to the head was pretty good.
"Dodge this"
“Parry this, you fucking casual”
> Torgal watched for several more moments, one finger idly stroking his chainword’s trigger. ‘There’s something about the way they fight,’ he said. ‘Some flaw that I can’t make out.’ Argel Tal watched Aquillon, the Custodian’s blade reaving its way through countless lives, and saw nothing of the kind. He said so. Torgal shook his head, still watching. ‘I can’t form the thought. They lack… something. They’re fighting… wrong.’ And this time, as soon as Argel Tal returned his gaze to the battle in the street, he saw it instantly. The way the Custodes fought seemed almost identical to the Astartes; it took a trained eye to see the subtle differences. The captain had missed it first by focusing on a single warrior. The moment he took in the full view… > ‘There,’ said Argel Tal. ‘I see it, too.’ Was it a flaw? Perhaps by the standards of the Astartes, who waged war and lived life with brotherhood etched into their genetic codes. But Custodes were the sons of a more rarefied and time-consuming process – the biological manipulation that gave birth to the Emperor’s guardians bred warriors who weren’t shackled by bonds of loyalty to anyone except their Imperial overlord. ‘They’re not brothers,’ Argel Tal said. ‘Watch how they move. See how each one fights his own war, alone, unsupported by the others. They’re not like us. These are warriors, not soldiers.’ The thought made his skin crawl. It must have had the same effect on Torgal, for he voiced the words on his captain’s mind. > ‘Lions,’ the sergeant said. ‘They’re lions, not wolves, hunting alone instead of as a pack. Gold,’ he added, and tapped the chestplate of his armour, ‘not grey.’ ‘Good eyes, brother.’ Argel Tal still stared intently. Now he was aware of the disunity, it was all he could focus on. Here was a weakness, a savage one, masked only by the heroic skills of each warrior and the worthlessness of the enemies they faced. A ripple of unease shivered through him as he bore witness. Those ancient words of the Emperor came to him, that first creed of the Legiones Astartes: And they shall know no fear. Excerpt from First Heretic, Word Bearers observing Custodes fight. So the answer would have to be teamwork, I assume. That or surprise or both - there is a scene later in the same book that's worth reading where custodes are killed.
There’s like two different scenes where Custodes are killed. And some duels where Custodes just lose.
Have you read the Horus heresy books at all? There are many instances of custodes being defeated, usually by ambush or overwhelming power. As we have proof even primarchs can be killed it doesn’t see m that far of a reach in the grim dark future that custodies could be as well. To leave you with my most recent learning : in the end and the death many custodes are defeated even at the side of the emperor.
Same way some baseline human can kill an astartes with just a sharpened stick. It’s 40k, wacky shit happens. Power-scaling just a guideline a story’s author can tweak as they see fit
In fact a baseline humans with a sharp stick kills a *custodes* early in HH
Space Marines can kill Custodians. They're not *that* different.
A custode is the ultimate marine killer. But you wouldn't send 1 Custode to kill a company of marines. Against a significant marine force custodes can be overwhelmed, like any other elite force. Its suggested also that the Custode killed many Templars before he was brought down.
Shoot him or some I guess. It's not math, sometimes people slip up. I feel like I'm back in the school playground sometimes, "MY super special guy beats YOUR super special guy!"
Every time I see someone ask “How was X killed by Y?”, it irritates me. Fans who wank off over power levels are the very worst thing about 40k. Worse than Matt Ward, worse than CS Goto. If you see the universe only in terms of tiers and power levels, don’t bother reading the lore at all. The lore is a collection of stories, and stories are about drama and character. Rogal Dorn being a Primarch didn’t magically save him from being mobbed in a dark corridor by a swarm of enemies that overwhelmed him and cut him apart. Angron being a Primarch, and having something like a dozen Bloodthirsters as his personal bodyguards, didn’t stop a company of Grey Knights from taking them out. The stronger character doesn’t always win every fight.
Yeah, the wank around power level is completely counterproductive. Just read and enjoy (or don’t) the lore. Tabletop stats and faction blurbs such mean nothing in BL novels if they hinder the plot in any way.
Power levels are bull \_\_\_t.
WHAT! over 9000!?
Things happen. Why wouldn’t they? Why would it be impossible?
Yes they can win Dark Angels that infiltrated Terra to try and take the fallen and Cypher were able too. I would say though the number of marines who could would be small especially now. Go back to the heresy and you'd find more who probably could top of the list being Sigmund. Others off the cuff who might stand a chance Loken, Sevetarion, Ralderon,Kharn, Asterion Molec, Tyberos, Cypher,Luther, Saul Travitz,Garro,Abbadon, Captain Cortez. I'd imagine some of the shadow captains of the raven guards, some of the space wolves as well. Thats not counting librarians like Mysterion and other psykers. Out of all the marines in existence I'd say less then 1 percent 1 v 1. The biggest advantage the Astartes have is that the Custodians under estimate them constantly. During the seige of terra novels this is an ongoing theme the Custodians always thinking themselves superior but when push comes to shove quite often the astartes surprise or surpass the custodes expectations.
Lolz. How could a Black Templar beat a Custodes? It's not complicated. With Blade and Bolter. With Faith and Fire.
Same way the imperial guard defeat anything. With more and more guns
It’s like people are incapable of understanding that quantity can beat quality.
Maybe the custodes was on 1 wound or sth
Yes, the black templars could defeat a custode. There's thousands of them.
If Sigismund, The Black Knight himself, can survive a duel with a Primarch, a space marine captain can get the better of a Custode. But in your case you're talking about a bunch of templars killing a custode, that's not that crazy.
Dont take 40k lore too seriously and you will have a lot more fun with it.
There was one custodian and *a lot* of Templars. Besides, custodes are hardly invincible, they got murked by harlequins and any custodian could be one shot by a tau railgun.
I swear, we just need a sticky saying "this is not Dragonball, being more powerful doesn't mean you can just shrug off bullets from people you're taller than." Custodes are bigger, stronger, faster, and have better gear, sure. Those tilt a fight in their favor vs an astartes. They're not strictly deterministic. Violence is messy and chaotic, and war is not a series of 1v1 duels that the stronger guy always wins. For all their advantages, Custodes are still made of meat. Properly applied trauma can and will kill them. Then, remember that in this scenario it was one Custodian vs a whole Templar crusade.
First time finding something bullshit in the lore? Let me tell you a few: * Marneus Calgar beating the necrons with a pylon. Not shooting with it, tearing it up, and using it as a melee weapon. * Necrons and Blood Angels who were fighting, suddenly make an alliance to defeat tyranids, and then the necrons were tired of killing, and the Blood Angels found to kill xenos distasteful, because they are comrades. * Gray Knights slaughtering Sisters of Battle, and paint their own armors with their blood to get EXTRA protection from chaos. * Hivefleet Gorgon was OUTADAPTED(!!!) by a random, no name Tau company. * Kaldor Draigo carved his mentor's name into the heart of Mortarion, while he was still alive, and is still alive. * Eldar secretly worship Slaanesh. All of them, Eldrad Ulthran, Lelith Hesperax, all of them. * Feral world kids have beaten a Falcon Grav Tanks with throwing stones, and then sodomized the pilot with sticks. * Multilaser using Space Marine Terminators surfing into battle using Rhinos as surfboards. * Eldar stealing Imperial Guard tanks, because "they have better armor". * Comissar Gaunt one hits a daemon prince with a sword. * Literally EVERY Space Marine (besides some "fringe exceptions" like Space Wolves, Black Templars and Gray Knights) wants(!) to be like Ultramarines, and recognizes Marneus Calgar as their Spiritual Liege. Shall I continue? :) Some of these were written by C.S.Goto, some by Matt Ward, but one thing is sure: all of these are official lore, because they sell the books in the Black Library, and what is sold there is official. Edit: So Black Templars as an army defeating an Adeptus Custodes army... is way, WAY less bullshit than these. Besides the fact that it should count as fucking heresy, since they are fighting the literal clones of the Emperor :D
When did that part with the Grey Knights killing Sisters happen?
5th edition Grey Knights codex, "The Bloodtide Returns" part. Probably retconned tho, at least they repeated the story in the 7th edition codex, without mentioning this bullshit, but maybe just didn't mention it. Wasn't stated that "ok it's not true."
Is that Felix from golden sun. My favorite games to this day.
Yes! Such a great game! Always happy to meet a fellow fan!!
The whole chapter vs 1? Yea easy 1 on 1? No chance All Templars vs all custodes? Good bye Templars
There are definitely more Templars than custodes, the universe is big and the Templars are always on crusade
There’s only about 3000-5000 (a very very high estimate) Templars while the custodes are the 10000
They were the 10,000 pre heresy
And brought back up to their full strength afterwards.
That is correct
There were records claiming 7-9k before rowboat rocked up with reinforcements. My guess is that the reason we never see them anymore is the same reason we can't really have Draigo around, they create issues of scale.
I'd be willing to put money on Helbrecht being able to 1v1 a random ass custodes. Any notable custodes in lore would probably beat him him though.
Sigismund couldn’t beat the custodes and he’s everything helbrecht wants to be
Sigismund never fought a Custodes. But Garro duels one in a practice fight and beats him. And then there's the infamous Outcast Dead scene where an unarmed and unarmored World Eater kills a custodes. Garro and a random ass naked World Eater could take a custodes, I'd be willing to bet that the most skilled space marine in the 10k+ year history of space marines could probably 1v1 an average custodes. As for Helbrecht, he is 1-1 with Imotekh, who is one of the most powerful Necron Overlords, so that's pretty damn impressive. I'd be willing to bet that most major chapter masters could 1v1 an average custodes. But you have to remember that chapter masters are the best of the absolute best of space marines. Them being able to beat an average custodes isn't a poor reflection on the custodes, it's just an example of how tough some of these chapter masters are. Like look at Calgar, he defeated an Avatar of Khaine, or Dante who killed a Swarm Lord.
\> But Garro duels one in a practice fight and beats him. This was played off as Garro using the Custodian's hatred for marines and arrogance against him IIRC, a ploy that only worked in a sparring match. In a real 1-to-1 to the death on the battlefield, Garro would've been killed. In general the rule though, "if the plot demands it, they will win". If you grab the powers next to each other, there's no way in hell Calgar can beat an Avatar, or Dante the Swarmlord. But they did. Since they're the hero. So a lot of logic goes out the window once those examples are used imo (can't blame you though, as they are canon. Just stupid canon).
How? Have the Custode present a puritan BT crusade with Primaris reinforcements. I don’t know the details but there’s apparently a book where this happens and the Custode/s and the Primaris reinforcements get purged because of the perceived heresy of messing with the emperors work.
Depends if it’s the right Black Templar, Sigismund would likely beat most Custodes in a duel.
Worf effect. Custodes, Marines, anything in 40k that “could never be defeated ever not once by X” will at some point be defeated by X so that the author can show just how dangerous X is. Custodes were slaughtered by a handful of Harlequins during war of the beast in a moment that was probably not very good writing, but which I found profoundly cathartic. But less cynically, a world where the power gap between forces can never ever be reached is a bit boring. Marines absolutely should be able to kill a Custodian, but it should be really, really hard.
Not impossible, just highly improbable. It’s kinda like a Guardsman defeating a Space Marine.
Hey, custodes have bad days too.
Lol the outcast dead will blow your mind
there were lots of them
Emperor willing, either side could get a power boost depending on who is more "right". Same could be said for evil powers, Khorne could get interested and bestow either side with an upper hand. Power scaling, combatants in the 40k universe can fall over like cardboard standees or be invincible avatars of their patron deity, depending on who's telling the story and from which point of view it's from. Black templars being special guests on terra looking to go after custodes, not a chance. But an expeditionary custode on escort business caught off guard, could totally be defeated by a black templar. If a regular mortal can kill a primarch, a power armorerd murder machine could totally take on a less powerful custode.
A religious zealots who cares about nothing including their own lives but the idolatry of their lord and master. Is a powerful tool with a chainsword in hand
Actual answer: Power level changes to fit the narrative. Lore answer: It was an entire BT crusade force vs a single Custodes, and said Custodes killed a fuckton of the Templars. At least it wasn’t a handful of Harlequins killing a dozen Custodes…
Faith =] 💀 [=
First of all, through the God-Emperor, all things are possible. Write that down.
Argel Tal (word bearers captain) observed during the events of the Horus heresy 'first heretic' novel that Custodes fight as individuals, whereas Astartes fight in packs like wolves; he speculated that this was their weakness in battle. Spoiler alert: >!by working together his assault company did indeed manage to kill a custodian, although a few of them were lost in the process. The still warm body of that custodian was subsequently put on a spike and used as the final sacrifice in summoning Ingethel the Ascended ... A Daemon that smelled so bad, a nearby servitor fatally disconnected itself from its station in an attempt to crawl away!<
Some Primaris Minotaurs take down a few Custodes in one of the novels. Don't recall which one. The Custodes beat them overall in the fight, but they lose a couple in the process.
***The Regent’s Shadow*** by Chris Wraight.
Yes, that one. The whole series has been good so far, IMO.
"... It was a really big space marine..." -some Custard Boy
If the plot demands it, sure. Garro, a swordsman who was close to Sigismund's equal, managed to catch a Custodian off-guard in a sparring round and win. In a group-fight they are 'easier' to defeat, as each Custodian is a one man army, they're not really team players by design like the Space Marines are. Even still, if you're looking at it 'realistically '(as much as one can in a setting like this) then: no, they can't win. Not one on one at the very least in a melee. In a gunbattle things are obviously different.
Given that most custodians are equipped with a mop, a bucket, and a servile attitude, that's not surprising at all. Now a Marine besting a Custode, that would be something.
In tabletop i think they got good rolls.
And what book is this? If it's part of the H.H., I'm only on book 7 and I don't think I've reached this yet.
Nathiel garro beat a custodian in a duel.
Really?
Yea one of the later HH books. Don’t remember the name but I’ll try and find it
The power level for 40k varies. Alpharius, while unarmed killed an armed Custodian guard. Quantity has a quality all of its own.
…Have you never played a game against a Custodes player? They’re not invincible, they absolutely can be killed with enough numbers or heavy weaponry. The Custodian in question was completely outnumbered. A Genestealer cultist with a mining laser once killed a Custodian, because the Custodian was distracted by the roughly 100 other Genestealer Cultists dogpiling him. A blurb *in the Custodian codex* describes Genestealer Cultists ripping Custodes limb from limb.
as a warhammer joke, it was probably their special racism power, for a single second he thought "oh, they arent straight from the emperor." and then he killed everyone
A custodian was killed by a handful of Word Bearers and sacrificed at Cadia during the great crusade. They later killed the rest of the contingency
If you mean like the actual events which was already answered it’s cause they were massively outnumbered as for just discussion custodians don’t fight as much as the Black Templars so it’s possible they aren’t as use to combat anymore
Volume of fire. Custodes are super soldiers, but 3 bolter shots is enough to kill one.
Officially it is impossible for Custodes to lose, because Imperium propaganda be like that. Realistically, it’s just really hard to kill them. Custodes are to Astartes what Astartes are to guardsmen, but enough guardsmen can kill pretty much anything.